EP204: Which Platform is Right for Your Church - The Chestly Lunday Experience Takeover

All right, hey, you got the Church Digital Podcast. Welcome, fam. Good to have you back here. This is episode 204, and we are still in the Church Digital Podcast Network takeover season. I got Chesley. You know what, Chelsea, I'll go ahead and introduce you early. Normally do that later on, but Chesley Lunday coming in here from Digital Church Network and a whole bunch of other places. Hey, man, welcome. How you doing?

What's up? Doing pretty good. Am I number two on the list now behind Ray? Am I? Am I there yet? What do you mean number two for what?

Well, Ray's been on the Church Digital Podcast for, I mean, episodes, but I'm on number five now. So am I number two yet?

I'll tell you, I'll tell you, it's close. I'm willing to bet Tyler Sansom still has an edge on you.

Tyler, you're not allowed to come on, bro. You're not allowed to come on. But by the way, Tyler Sansom, now lead pastor of a church anywhere in First Capital Christian. Super excited about what he's doing there up there with that church. Super stuff. But yeah, we did like a, I think we did a three or four part series—boom, boom, boom, boom—with him going through Church Anywhere, and he's still got the edge on you. You're going to beat him. You're going to own them. It's just a matter of, you know, time here. We'll get it in season three. I promise you that. I got a lead pastor at Church or something. I don't know.

Yeah, I guess so. You know, even just talking about season three, I thought we knew what we were doing with season three, and I was in a meeting with Chesley and some of the other Digital Church Network team, and we just like dropped a bomb on all of that. And season three is gonna be awesome. I just have no idea what it is right now, but it's gonna be great in like two weeks. So hang around. Season three is—it's gonna be great.

Hey, you know what, let's hone in. Because I could literally do this all day, and you will have a four-hour podcast episode here if we're not careful. But hey, you know, I am super excited, and if you haven't seen this or been a part of this, then you got to come join the family over here with Digital Church Network. We launched, you know what, actually, Chesley, this is like your baby, man. You have done such a great job, you and Shane and the team putting this together. But talk here a little bit about Fam and this network, this community we're building here through DCN.

Yeah, well, we all know that being a digital church planter, somebody in digital ministry, anything digital right now in church-based, it might feel sexy on the outside, but you and I both know we've been square pegs and round holes for a very long time. And so we need a community of like-minded people to learn from, to pray for, to be cared for, and to begin to think about what the future of digital church is going to look like. And so Jeff and I, a few months ago, along with Shane Higgins, began to sit down and dream about what it would look like to create what's now the Digital Church Network. So we got 220 members now, so we're hanging in there. We're moving right along, and we have a lot of fun. We're going to have Rob Wegner soon. We're going to do some movement stuff, which you're going to talk about here in a second. So I would love to see you on there. You will get a message from me. I will talk to you. I will say hi. I might even spam you a little bit on the network just to say hi some more.

Well, nothing makes people want to join an online community like talking about how you're going to spam them. It's really just DMing, really having a conversation, having fun. That's all it is, really.

Yeah, I mean, listen, if you're involved in digital ministry in any different way, in helping establish churches understand digital ministry, if you're interested in planting a digital church, if you're wrestling with metaverse—hey, it's going to be hard, metaverse people. I get it. You're addicted to Discord. Come hang out in something different here. Here's what I need you to do: go to fam.digitalchurch.network. Fam.digitalchurch.network. Fam. Come check it out. Put a link in the show notes. Click on it. Come, you know, see what's going on. We'd love to have you be a part of what's coming on. We've got trainings going towards movement, discipleship training, evangelist training, random round tables talking about digital ministry and metaverse and things like that. We're going to be hitting some solid topics. And honestly, like the thing that we're wrestling with—I got to figure out the tech. I'll tell you what, I'll give you a sneak peek. What we're looking at with season three is even doing that recording that live in Fam. And so really starting to connect with the community, getting some live interaction from the audiences, working through this and hitting some of these hard topics, recorded there live in front of the Fam studio audience. So listen, check it out. Fam.digitalchurch.network. Much more coming as it comes to the Digital Church Network. Super excited about it. But we're going to get all into that here as we get closer to season three.

Well, Chesley, Chesley, I feel is like my long lost brother because I have spent so much time. I am adopted, and I feel like Chesley at this point is like my, you know, my birth brother that I didn't know existed because I'm spending so much time with him on these platforms, starting to dialogue and talk through digital church networking, the Church Digital, and so much stuff. I've loved working with them here. Chesley, you're spinning up a podcast here called the Chesley Lunday Experience. Why don't you talk here a little bit? Tell us some of the why and the how and what you're talking about here on the podcast?

Yeah, well, obviously we are in an age of disruption. And so it's really cool if you are an organization or a church that's doing the disrupting. It's not cool if you're the church that is getting disrupted. So we want to help churches like you learn how to think creatively, innovatively in this next era. And it's going to take out-of-the-box aha moments. And so we get the ability to do that. So I'm going to have guests on, already having guests on, that are in different industries. I just had a conversation with an author. Her name is Carrie Melissa Jones. She wrote Building Brand Community. She talked about what it's like to build online digital community, and she does this for Nike. She's done it for Sephora. She's done it for two presidential campaigns. Like, she knows exactly what she's doing in the digital space. And then also other organizations like you that do have real questions. And that's actually what we're going to talk about today on the podcast is I sit down with the church that has a real question about what digital platform should I, as a church leader, as an organizational leader, which one should we be focused on?

Yeah, I love what you're doing here at the podcast, and really even doing like live coaching with churches that are wanting to explore this space. And so, man, I would love to just give a shout out here. If anybody is interested in coming on and getting like custom coaching to address the things that are going on, I love what Chesley's doing. Hey, come on my podcast. Let me do the coaching with you, and oh, by the way, I'm going to share the coaching live with you, you know, other people on the podcast. Like, that's that. If churches are not taking advantage of that, like, what's wrong with you? Come on. Hey, Jeff, I don't want to air my dirty laundry. Everybody else has the same dirty laundry as you. What are you worried about? Get in there and just let somebody, you know, work it out. Even bring in the team to hash it out. That's why I'm so excited about the specifics of this episode. We're diving into. Chesley, set it up here with the podcast. Who are you specifically talking to?

Yeah, we're talking with Pastor Michael DeYoung out of northwest Iowa, and him and his team. Actually, he's got a couple guys on the phone online with me, and we're actually talking through this problem. They start with what platform should we be on, but we actually get quickly into the questions that are most important around it. And they're doing amazing things there. Like, they run an organization that was handling sex trafficking and helping girls get out of that. They have been involved with FCA in their community, and they decided to plant their church during COVID, which is amazing. And so they've been doing an amazing job of coalescing people in their community, and they're beginning to think about what does it look like to be beyond their community? How do we hone in on the right audience that will be coming to our church? And what does that look like? So they're starting to wrestle with the online platform as they move the message of Jesus forward in their community.

Yeah, so a good platform conversation is what you're walking into. And I've loved what I've heard with this. So by the way, if you want to subscribe to Chesley's podcast, the Chesley Lunday Experience, put links in the show notes. You can click on it there. By the way, if you're interested in coaching, I should say this, even email Chesley. Chesley at thechurch.digital. Get connected with him and explore that road. Like, more need to. But I'm super excited about this conversation here. We're bringing in for episode 204. We're talking about what platforms. The Chesley Lunday Experience takeover here with the Church Digital Podcast. So for Chesley and myself here, you go. Here's the show. Take a look.

So what is the question that you're really wanting to solve in our time together, or at least beginning to solve and have a roadmap to doing that?

You know, I would say, you know, the main thought is like, okay, what platform do you focus on? What innovation? What technology do you use? And, you know, how do you get that message out there when you decide to go the digital way? So I'd say, you know, what platforms? What innovation? Like, there's so much technology out there. Like, the average guy just doesn't know exactly what to use and how to get it up and going. It's gonna be our main question.

Welcome to the Chesley Lunday Experience. The purpose of this podcast is to help your church innovate in an age of disruption. But to do that, you can't continue to do what you've always done. No, you need new ideas and creative approaches to rethink and redesign the methods of the past. Chesley, that's me, helps you discover those out-of-the-box aha moments so that you can apply them to your unique context.

Hey, welcome to the Chesley Lunday Experience. I'm your host, Chesley Lunday. For the next 40 minutes, we dive into the most pressing problems that you need solved, and I coach you through that problem. In this podcast, we hang out with Michael DeYoung and his team. So Michael carries a heart for revival regionally and nationally. And in 2014, Michael and his wife helped birth a ministry called Action 169, which fights against commercial sexual exploitation and sex trafficking. When COVID hit in 2020, many churches began to shut down, and Michael and Jenna began to gather people in their home, which led to what they call an Axe-type movement right in northwest Iowa. From there, they began to get invited to preach around the Midwest in tents, fields, barns, homes, and event centers. So in the fall of 2021, Michael followed God's call, and a new church called Activation Church was born. So Michael also works in schools pioneering Fellowship of Christian Athletes in Sioux County, and Michael is married to Jenna, his wife, and loves spending time with his family. So they came to our session with one pressing question. That's this: What digital platform should we be focusing on? I know that is a problem that each and every one of you are sitting with.

There trying to figure out some of you are like, "Hey, we use all of them," but maybe just maybe you need to think a little deeper as to which one you should be on. So let's go right to it. We got Michael, Nicholas, and Josh on the call with us today, and we are going to dive into the problem that they need to have solved. And so for the next 30 minutes, we're going to talk about like, how do we have an innovative solution to the problem?

So Michael, if you want to start, tell us a little bit about your ministry and then what problem you guys want to solve. And you guys jump in, Nick and Josh, whenever you feel like it.

Yeah, so we have a ministry called Activation Ministries, which is now turned into Activation Church. And it's the birthright church here in northwest Iowa, just south of Sioux City, Iowa. So it's been exciting. We've been in, you know, three months since we started our Sunday gatherings. But honestly, the ministry began, you know, really launched with this body of people back when COVID hit. And you know, as COVID hit, we came out of a six-day revival, a six-day awakening. And you know, churches began to shut down, and the Lord called us to start building. So we began to build in the home, and it gave birth. And it's just really a fresh move of God's spirit and his word. And it's been exciting to see a new body emerge through a time of transition in the church.

So you know, I believe the church is in an awesome transition season, and it's a season where we actually can expect a lot of good things, great things to have for the body. And there's no quote—man, it says it's always darkest before the dawn. And I just feel like the dawn for the church, like the sun is breaking out, man, and the light is starting to shine. And in dark times, God's true brightest emergence. So you know, we're looking to really, honestly, on the gathering side of it, the week-to-week side of it, fully take advantage of the season we're in and reach people. But then also on the digital side, you know, how can we capitalize and really reach people for the gospel with new digital strategies, which has been a big part of ours? So we're looking to really supplement alongside our weekly gathering and get some advice from you on how to really build this digitally as well.

Yeah, absolutely. What do you guys got, Josh? Nick? What are you thinking?

Yeah, I think just even with conversations we've been having recently at the church as far as digital strategies go, we've gone back and forth on whether we want to livestream church on Sunday mornings or whether we want to start another service where it's more of an in-home kind of a private base, but reach out beyond even our region into across the nation where other people need community and connection and discipleship and are looking for something like Activation Church. So yeah, there's just like a few different things where Activation is looking to grow in the digital sphere, you might say. One being just like even figuring out if we want to livestream. But I think we are for sure wanting to record our services so we can get those out to people who can't make it to church or serving in different parts of the church and don't get to see the service. And yeah, just to have a record of those messages that are going forth. And then also, yeah, to expand into new regions. Even though Activation is very northwest Iowa focused as far as the church, the ministry side of it is really—I see it, and I think I know Mike sees it as a national ministry. We have things lined up to go across the state, and people coming in from across the nation to come and gather. So projecting that out into the digital sphere, getting the word out, but also being able to bring people in and disciple people from wherever they're at. So I think that's the goal and the vision, and yeah, what that looks like is still a mystery. But yeah.

Absolutely. Nick, you want to add anything to that, man?

Yeah, I think I agree with both Josh and Mike on what they were saying. And you know, the thing that I think about a lot is, you know, what makes a local church? What are the components that make a church local and a local expression of the capital C church? And then how do you maintain that biblical definition of church when you're expanding beyond your gathering space itself? And so that's something I think just personally, like, yeah, how do you stay faithful to being a local church that's drawing people in, going out to them, preaching the gospel, they're coming into a local church fellowship, and then our responsibility is to build those disciples in their faith and establish that church. And then yeah, how does outreach with digital media fit into that? But then also, is there a local church component to digital media? And I think that's something I'm praying through. How does that work? You know, so yeah.

I appreciate that. That question is a question that I think a lot of people are having right now. If we want to use a fancy term, it's called ecclesiology, right? What makes a church a church? Like, what makes it at least legit? So we can go back to Scripture and debate theology all day, but like at the end of the day, we're called to make disciples of all nations. Amen. That's what Jesus called us to. And so how can we help you guys do that better?

So what is the question that you're really wanting to solve in our time together, or at least begin to solve and have a roadmap to doing that?

You know, I would say the main thought is like, okay, what platform do you focus on? What innovation? What technology do you use? And you know, how do you get that message out there when you do decide to go the digital way? So I'd say, you know, what platforms? What innovation? Like, there's so much technology out there. Like, the average guy just doesn't know exactly what to use and how to get it up and going.

So that'd be your main question.

Okay, so I'm gonna put my consulting hat here, my coaching hat here for the second. When most of us that are in church world begin to think about digital strategy, the first question we go to is, "Well, what digital platform should I use?" But that's actually the last question we should be asking. We have a couple other questions we've got to answer before we ask the platform. And here's the reason why: your answers to the previous questions will actually determine whether or not you should use a platform or not.

So one of the first questions we've got to ask is, who is the type of person that God has called you guys to reach? Like, everybody's got a one. We call it the one, right? And so the one for us is like, Jesus has a hundred sheep, ninety-nine of them are on the flock, but one of them went astray. There's got to be a missionary zeal on the inside of you to go and reach that one. You know, Paul said, "I become like the Greeks to the Greeks, the Jews to the Jews, the foreigner to the foreigners, so that by all means I might reach some of them." So he really thought in terms of missionary zeal. How do I become like you to reach you? And so we as churches, as local churches, have a limited amount of resources. We have a limited amount of time, and we have a limited amount of attention. And so we have to come together and decide, who is it that God is calling us to spend our money, to spend our time, to spend our attention to reach?

So often churches say, "Everyone." Yes, I'm not discounting that, but we need to focus. We need to have, you know, how Taco Bell has their core menu and then they have a bunch of other stuff, but when COVID happened, what did they do? They shuttered their menu and went down to their core focus. So you need to start with the core focus. Now, I'm not trying to compare your church to Taco Bell, but I love Taco Bell. So I would ask you guys, have you decided who your missionary zeal is? Who's your one?

Yeah, it's a great question. You guys have an answer? But Nick or Josh, you guys have a thought?

I guess my first thought, just in the region that Activation Church is planted in, I see it as a transition, a place where to reach people who have never encountered the things of the spirit or have really fully entered into surrender with the Lord, who have grown up in tradition and religion but have never actually experienced true relationship and the true power and presence of God that's here to be encountered and to live in and to walk in. I feel like Activation Church is that. And it's—we've always talked about, of course, it's Activation Church, so we're activating people not to just sit in church on Sunday, but to go out and do the works of the ministry as well. And so it's disciplining and equipping, bringing people out of what traditional church used to look like and into the fullness of the spirit and equipped to go and do the works of the ministry, the gifts that the spirit has given them. That's how I've kind of seen it.

Anybody want to add to that?

I have a quick thought. Like, you know, the thought of people wanting more. And I feel like our body is, you know, people wanting more than just a place to come check the box on the Sunday and get the service in. So we've been drawing a very unique person, and the person is a person looking to go all in with the gospel, people that have called a ministry in their life, people that want to be empowered to go walking in things of the spirit. So that's been a main core element. But then also the one, the one that's lost, you know, I think about the guy struggling with alcohol, the guy that has a marriage issue, the lost. So it's kind of twofold. I feel like it's really drawn to people who want more, that want to pursue the call of ministry in their life, but also the one that doesn't have a home, not plugged into the body of Christ, the church home, lost, downtrodden, and broken, like I was many years ago.

So yeah, tell me more about that, Michael. Like, you have a story behind that.

So there's a mentor of mine, his name is Rory Vaden. He says, "You're perfectly positioned to reach who you used to be." Does that make sense? And you're what you're saying right there is might actually be very on the money. Who did you used to be, man?

A bad dude. So honestly, like, I think of Paul, and you know, Paul said he's the chief of sinners. And I think about that side of it. You know, for me, I grew up in a Christian Reformed Church. You know, grew up going to church twice a week, went to catechism, went to Sunday school, and had a knowledge of God but didn't know God. And I made a profession of faith at eighteen, nineteen years old, and just went through all these steps that, you know, church laid out for us. But the truth was, I was a wreck on the inside. And I was smoking, I was drinking, and doing things I should not be doing. And you know, I can remember this, and this gets kind of deep and intimate, but I remember sitting in a strip club with a guy when I was about twenty-two years old. And he grew up in the Reformed Church, and I grew up in the Christian Reformed Church. And we went to a party afterwards, and he goes, "Mike, we're with a bunch of people who didn't grow up in church." And he goes, "Mike, man, he goes, we're gonna be okay. He goes, you know, we grew up right." And that thought has never ever left me. It's been like it's actually wrecked me because the guy is still living that way, and he's probably near fifty. And I'm like, how many people are living that way? Like, they grew up in the Reformed Church or in any denominational church, and they think they're okay because of how they grew up. But the Bible actually says you're worse off than the one who doesn't believe because you actually—

Know how things should be, so we're actually the worst position. Yeah, did total deception. So like when I came to Christ at 26, you know, I mean between you and I, I mean I was dating a girl that worked there and that's where my life was at. Growing up in church and yeah.

And I had a sister who prayed for me. She sought after me and she literally prayed me to the kingdom. And there came a day at the age of 26 where I called and I was broken and I was at a place of surrender. And she goes, "I think you're ready."

And I'm like, "Ready for what?" And she goes, "To relationship with Jesus." And she goes, "I'm going to pray for you." And I can remember that moment. I looked up and in a moment, man, I received Christ. You know, the power of God fell on me. And from that day forward I opened my Bible for the first time ever and I had a heavenly Father speaking to me. And He began to lead me, began to guide me, and I began to walk away from all those addictions, all those things, that whole lifestyle of sin and knowing how to tell me right and wrong. The Spirit of God now invaded me and I was able to walk out of that sin. And so then coming out of that, man, and seeing the blindness of us stuck in the traps of religion, you know, it's really showed me a lot of things. So you know, that's the key component there for that side of it. So I can relate to people that are stuck in sin because I was once stuck in major sin myself, you know?

Yeah, you're making me cry. Yeah, it's freaking awesome. That's why we do that. That's why we do this thing, man. I'm yeah. So what I hear is, "I want to go after the Michaels of this world," and then there's this call to leadership, like leaders, young leaders that are looking for. That's what I'm hearing. Is that would that be accurate?

Yeah, what do you got? You got any thoughts, Nick?

No, I love you guys. Yeah, I think you nailed it. You know, in our area you could take a handful of our young people. You know, I did gel ministry in Sioux County for twelve years, and most of the guys that I ministered to on all of those times grew up in the church. And you could have taken probably seventy-five of them and they would put them in Bible quiz and they would be able to answer every Bible question that you could imagine. But there was a huge disconnect between what they knew here in real life. And I think so many of them wanted to know that the God of the Bible is God today. And it's a lot of the people that we minister to. It's like they've had this ache on the inside of them. Like all of these stories that they know, all the miracles that they've read about, the love of Jesus and the compassion of Jesus, the power of Jesus. Like they want to know that that only exists two thousand years ago or is it for our time today? I wouldn't say for sure we don't have all of the answers on how that works out, but one thing we do is we believe it. We believe Jesus is Lord today and we believe that the Spirit of the living God is alive and present today. And so we just want hungry people to be hungry with us and then we feed on Him together. And I would say that yeah, that describes us pretty well.

So yeah, yeah, amen. It's amazing. Okay, so we got a decent picture of who you want to reach, that's lost. So here's what I want you to do. You have two audiences, and most churches are going to have two audiences. They're going to have those people that want to be on mission, and you want to reach those people. And then you're going to have the people that you are called to reach, the ones that are lost, like the previous Michaels of this world, right? So you need to get very clear on not just the demographic but the psychographic. And I'll explain those two terms if you don't already know them. And some of you listening to the podcast, you may know those words. Demographic is where do I live? What job do I have? Well, how much money am I making? How many kids do I have? Psychographics is what am I feeling like? What are the things that make me me? Looking at my patterns in life and going, "Well, I am this way because I'm most likely feeling like this." You need to get very clear on both of those. What we would call avatars. These aren't people that you necessarily go out and say, "We're reaching these two people." Everybody is allowed to come and be a part of the community. But when you're looking at limited resources, you need to focus those resources to reaching those, like packaging everything to resonate with those two audience members. Does that make sense? And you're going to actually probably have to split. You're going to have to do one message campaign for a specific audience member, and then look at that. Siri decided to talk. Am I on my watch? Sorry about that.

So you're going to have to figure out the messaging campaign, and we could talk about that. But there's a message for the Michaels of this world, and then there's a message for the leaders of this world. They're different. And so if you're going to focus on two, which is not easy to do most of the time, I would say do one to begin with and then go after the other once you've figured that out. That's how I would normally do it. So you can make that choice yourself. But at the end of the day, what you're saying is, "I've got two primaries, and there may be a way to connect them." And we'll talk about that in a second.

So once you've figured out your primary, you need to go, "How do I make Michael become a Josh?" Does that make sense, guys? Josh is on the phone call with us. He's a young leader. He loves Jesus. He's doing great things. Like you want to make that transition from "I'm a heathen" and now "I'm so totally on fire for Jesus and the mission that I'm going to go do it at all costs." There's a process. It's called discipleship. It's called disciple making.

Let me, I've got a friend named Brian Phipps. He says this: "God did not call us to perpetually disciple people. We are not disciples in the perpetual making. God called us to make disciples, and disciples go." There's a finite amount of time that it takes. Jesus spent three years with His people and launched them in the ministry, whether they were ready or not. Jesus knew they were ready. They didn't know they were ready. That's the point of a guide. You guys get to position yourself as a guide in this process, which means you have to have a process. That process is going to look different for every church because that's where you get to contextualize this, right? You're going to have a little bit of a different theological bent than my friends in the SBC, you know. You have reformed tendencies in theological undergirding, but then you have a very high view of the Holy Spirit and you're charismatic. That's going to look different than my friends that are, you know, the frozen chosen that are cessationists and don't believe that the Holy Spirit is working. It's whatever flavor is for you, but you got to have a process. And I'm going to say three to four steps at the most. You may have twenty-five sub-steps, but people when they look at the process can only metabolize three to four. Three is better than four.

So what are the three major leaps, mile markers if you will, to going from a Michael to a Josh, or a Michael old Michael to the new Michael? And so I would say that once you get that down, then you need to have a community support structure to launch them in ministry and connect them with people along the way. That's going to look different for each one of you guys, like for every faith community. They're going to have their own like names. The structure is going to be the same. Like you know, you have the mission field. You know, you have people of peace. You know, you have members. But then you have like what we would call deacons. These are people that are serving the church and the mission. And then you're going to have elders. These are people that are protecting the community at all costs. But you don't have to call them that. You're going to brand it your style.

So to give you an example, like we don't call them elders. We call them the city council, you know, at King City. You want to make sure that you create your community with your own qualifications, standards, rights, rituals. So you gotta have the community that surrounds them. And then the next question, the next question is, "Okay, if I look at an old Michael that would be twenty-five, twenty-six today, if that's who you're after, that's steeped in sin, where would we go and find them digitally?"

So so often in church world we want them to come to us. But on the mission field we have to go to them. If we were in any other country you wouldn't pay, you wouldn't like continue to give missionaries money if they didn't get off their butt and go actually find people to engage with them and do the mission. The same is true in America and it's true digitally. And so where do we go to meet them rather than asking them to come to us?

And so think about it. I would love for you guys to talk to me. Where do you think you would find those people at, Josh?

I think this is a question for you.

Oh boy, are you talking physically or digitally or both?

Digitally, digitally. Yes.

Oh yeah, I would think TikTok for sure would be one space to reach. It gets a little interesting, yeah. For sure, if you're trying to like reach into all the world, then yeah, I feel like TikTok. I mean, you get broadcasted all over the place. But yeah, then if you're trying to reach a demographic that's more local, you'd have to build some sort of a community or reach into a community that's already established to get that word out, to get the message out.

Yeah, which is an interesting. I don't know if I really have an answer for that one. Where would the young Michaels of this world, what platform do you think is most native to them?

Maybe Instagram?

Instagram, maybe. Okay, it's Instagram. Yeah.

So the beauty of Instagram, I mean you both said it at the same time. The beauty of Instagram is you can, because of Facebook, you can geocache it, right? So if you have a message you can put a little bit of money behind it and make sure that it only goes to a specific geography, right? And so if you're looking at a local church context, which I would say do that first, saturate. This is what Jesus said: "Go into all the world to make disciples of all nations, and you will be witnesses of me in Jerusalem, Judea, Samaria, and to the uttermost parts of the earth." What did He say? Start where you're at locally and then expand from there, and then go from there, and then go from there.

So what I would do is I would focus all of your efforts not on broadcasting to the world but broadcasting in your local geography. And when I say local geography, what's the lat, what's like the fifty-mile radius that you have? Start there. Fifty miles. Saturate with it. And then they're going to want to be a part of it. Now fifty miles is beyond the driving distance, the thirty-minute driving cutoff, right? So you're going to have to start thinking, "What would a decentralized form of church look like for these people so that they could become part of who we are and engaged completely in our mission in our cause and be our DNA, but they don't have to be at the building?"

And what we know about church is if you're watching by yourself, that's not church. That's not church at all. In fact, watching anything is not actually church. We are the church. And so we're called to grow each other up in the faith. That's Ephesians 4:11 through 16. We're called to build each other up in truth with love, right? And so we've got to create a system that's not about just watching me preach. We got to create a system in which we're helping each other build each other up in love through truth, right?

We can do that in a 50-mile radius so you can still do the local church Sunday morning service, the Sunday morning gathering, maybe invite people that are 50 miles away once a month. But what can you help the 50-mile, uh, like the group 50 miles away, uh, do to be a part of who you are in everything you're doing even if they just stayed in that area? So you got to think through that. But you guys answered the question for platform because you started thinking about who's your one, right? Automatically you said Instagram, Instagram before TikTok. You have a bigger audience. I know this about you guys. So those of you listening on the podcast, they have a bigger audience on TikTok, but they intuitively already knew that Instagram is where they should go. They knew because they started thinking about, well, the person we reached, they're actually going to be on Instagram. And so I want you to heed that because you already, you'll know Josh. You are out of anybody right now because, and Josh is 22, right? 22, is that correct?

24.

24. Man, um, he's going to be native to, uh, to these platforms more than Michael and Nick who are in their 40s, you know? So, uh, they're not that they're slouches by any stretch of the imagination, but Josh is going to be able to help navigate some of this stuff on Instagram. Let's be honest, I can, I, I'm a tech guy, I suck at Instagram. I'm somebody that does my Instagram. I'm like, I haven't figured it out. I figured TikTok out. I love TikTok, but I'm not good at Instagram for whatever reason. It's probably because I've hated pictures my entire life.

Yeah, so, um, what I would say there is like, now craft a message that will resonate with the, with the Michaels. So Michael, think of a message that you needed right at that spot where you had that threshold to make a decision for Jesus.

Yeah, and here's the deal. We also, we always think that they're looking for Jesus. They're not. They're looking for a solution to their problem, which is I need meaning and transformation in my life. We know that answer is Jesus, but if you tell them the answer is Jesus, they're gonna be like, no, I've done that already. The answer is I have the, I have the answer for the meaning, for the meaning of life, and I can help you do that in three easy steps. But if you don't do that, you're gonna end up continuing down the road that you're ending, that you're going down now. Let me tell you what the end of the road looks like. I know because I've been there. Oh, by the way, my name is Michael. Let me tell you my story. So I didn't come up with this either. This is StoryBrand, so you begin to think of a StoryBrand by Donald Miller. For those of you out there who put some of this stuff in the show notes, you got to begin to craft a message. So you've got your one down. The message is what does a Michael at 26 need to hear to begin to make a different decision about his life? What is he looking for? What's the solution that he's looking for? What's the problem that, uh, you need to articulate so that he's like, yes, that's exactly my problem, and you can go, I've got the answer, and the answer is found in three steps, and I can take you there. You have to make the decision. So that's called a call to action. So Instagram does not need to be about every sermon you ever do. That's, that's the biggest mistake most churches make. How many sermon series do you do per year? We don't know yet. My guess is you, you, you think in sermon series because that's what we've all thought about. Is that would that be accurate?

I'm not much determined serious guy myself. No, I don't think it's good.

Yeah, I don't, I don't think we are. I was in the past, but yeah, I don't think we think that way anymore.

Yeah, that's amazing. What made you guys shift off of that? Uh, sermon series, um, tend to be very mechanical, and then you're, you're trying to determine what your people need rather than listening to the Lord and him sharing what, what you and your people need. And, um, so yeah, it was so nice like before because I did expository preaching, so I'd preach through books of the Bible verse by verse, and, and I really love it, and I'm not, I'm not against it. I'm sure that'll happen again in the future too. So people know their Bibles, but yeah, it becomes very, very mechanical, and it could be that there'd be a tragedy, thousands of people would die, and I'd still preach on Jeremiah 3, had nothing to do with what's going on in the world. And, um, yeah, hopefully not going to do that anymore, not like that anyway. So there is a space for it obviously.

Oh yes, um, digging deep in Scripture, right? It's probably going to be more towards a leadership bit, right? So the farther you go down in the process, the more and more you're going to need the theology that undergirds everything you do. Theology's not the point. It supports the point. The point is the mission, you know? And so, um, when you think about your message, what I would suggest is take the message, craft it, um, and then say, this is the message that we want to get out to every person that's like a Mike. And then I would, I would ask 50 to, like, work together to brainstorm 52 questions that a Michael at 26 years old in the, in, like, completely in sin, but like, if feeling horrible, like, what would that, what would 52 questions that Michael would be asking about life and faith and a new way? And then on Instagram reels, that's your, that's your template. That's 52 pieces of content. Like, every, every week a different question, you know? And in fact, if you're, you know, reels, you probably need to do at least once a day. Here, and I'll say this, and you guys know this, but I'm going to say this for the audience. Depending on your platform is, is what determines how much time and the way you post. And so Facebook is probably once a day. Instagram is probably once to three times a day. TikTok is definitely three times a day. YouTube can be once a week. So, but you gotta know the other answers to the questions to determine what which one you need to focus on first. I'm not saying don't do the other ones. I'm saying put all of your effort in mastering Instagram and then move to a new one and then master that and then move to a new one and then master that. So 52 questions, how could you answer it uniquely in a way that would help them? So this also, if you really want to get good, um, your sermons could be crafted around these 52 questions. You could take your sermons and, uh, film them and then splice them up to become micro content you could, you could do throughout the week to post on Instagram. And so you have a unique anchor point.

Sure, a lot of churches, every church has this. They have a unique anchor point in the fact that their sermons are the content. And so you just can spice them up wherever you need.

Yeah, so any other questions about that? Do, am I making sense? Is there points of confusion?

No, it's so good.

Yeah, that's good. Thank you. So I want you to have some handles on what, what are good next steps to work on. Um, avatar, build an avatar template, and I will send you mine to show you what I'm talking about. Um, and then, um, I want you to do that for both audiences because they're going to look very different. My guess is your website infrastructure will end up being two websites. There'll be one for leaders and one for, uh, one for non-leaders, for people that are just finding Jesus. By the way, most churches are going to have that problem because they need both. So that's a challenge, but it can be done. So, and we can talk about this offline as we continue, but, um, yeah, so build your avatars and build a story, an avatar story of who this person really is. Demographics and psychographics. I want to know, I want to know, uh, who they are. I want to know how old they are. I want to know, uh, where they go to work. I want to know what they're feeling. What their typical weekend looks like. I want to know those things because those things give you information to go, oh, this is the real person we're looking at. And it needs to be a team effort, not just you as a leader. You need to, you need to do this as a team to figure out because everybody needs to be on board with who we're reaching. And you kind of need to be rude about it, like, not rude in the fact that I, I don't care about you and I'm arrogant, but like, we're putting our foot down. This is a boundary. This is super, this is a super focus for us. We're not, we're not stopping. We are, we are totally locked in to who we're reaching because that's, that's going to be, that's going to be a challenge for anybody in a church community because the biggest question when you do these types of things as well is, does that mean I don't have a place? No, no, no, no, no. You do have a place. Your place is to help us reach that person, and let me teach you how to do that. There's still a process for leadership development, you know?

Yeah, amen.

Um, so avatar building and then beginning to write the 52 questions that that person needs answered that will give you the pathway to decide what your content should look like.

Yeah, it's good, and it's solidified around a centralized message. So that's the three. Okay, so the avatar, what is the message that avatar needs to hear that solves the problem that they feel like they have? You already know the answer. The answer is Jesus. That's not the answer they're looking for. That's the, that's the stumbling stone they're going to fall over in the process. You're guiding them to fall over that stone. And then the process, what's a three-step process to get Michael to Michael? And then your 52 questions to guide them along the way. Avatar, message, process, 52 questions. That will begin to help you build a plan to begin to reach out on Instagram to know what you're doing. That's the beginning of the process. What we just laid out right there, that's not the whole kit and caboodle. I know there's, there's website infrastructure that's got to change if you do this. I know that, uh, you're, you could, if you want to get really crazy, you could change and design your entire church service around this. Like, what does the Michael need? Maybe it doesn't. Maybe he doesn't need what we've always done. If you get that focused, like, the sky's the limit on how you design this thing and implement it. So there's a lot more steps along the way. Um, obviously with the digital component, like, um, you need a call to action to move them from Instagram into your community. So how do we do that? There's a process for that. But these top steps will get you started. I would love to hear comments before as we, as we end. Comments, thoughts?

Yeah, that's great, um, great, you know, thought building and just kind of getting a target that you're aiming at and, uh, yeah, people that you're gonna reach because it's like that's the goal of every church is to reach the people who don't know Jesus. And, uh, getting a strategy to, uh, reach them. So many times you'll see a church start and you just get church people hop on church to another, but it's always been my dream to actually build a body that is people that come from the world and people that are converted out of, you know, lifestyles of immorality and coming into the grace of God. So it's like, yeah, really designing, uh, crafting a plan to reach those people, I think is a key component.

That's awesome. Love it.

Cool. Nick, Josh, what are you guys thinking?

Well, I love that you brought up where Paul was talking about becoming all things to all men so that he might by all means save some. And then thinking about, yeah, what would Paul take that to mean in our day and age? Um, yeah, I don't know that I've, I mean, I've maybe thought of it in passing, but yeah, that's such a good question. What tools would he utilize? How would he talk? Um, yeah, what, what kinds of gatherings would he have? Yeah, because we, we took what they were, had contextualized for their ministry, and then we try to replicate that exactly. Their Jewish custom or their Gentile custom or whatever. And so like, well, what would the church look like today?

Amen. Keeping, keeping to the truth of the word.

Preaching the whole council of God. But yeah, what would the structures and things look like? So that's some good stuff to dream about.

Yeah, absolutely. That's how I got started in this. I'm like, how would Paul do it if he was alive today? Well, one thing I can tell you for a fact, he would not be writing letters. He'd be like, "Whoa, wait a minute. We can do film and I can talk to you instantaneously. Shoot, I'm not doing this anymore." Like, Paul was a pragmatist. Very much so a pragmatist for the mission of God. So he would do whatever it takes to work to accomplish the mission.

Josh, what do you got, man?

Yeah, I love just thinking about the questions. And even with, I think my mind is automatically going to the questions that people who have not experienced that true relationship encounter with the Holy Spirit would be thinking. Like, "I already have Jesus." But even in the way that you're speaking about, don't tell them it's Jesus right away. Just tell them their problem, which they already know, and then give them the solutions, which are in the Word and they are Jesus, but don't brand it that way. Get them behind the door of that mind where they're just already caught up and already have the answer. But show them and take them past that problem into the solution, and then the realization of that will be Jesus in the end. But just to think about those questions, like they're already coming to my mind. The questions that people are asking, like, "Why would I need the Holy Spirit? Don't I already have the Holy Spirit? Like, what are all these other things that you guys are talking about that I've never heard of?" And so those are things that are starting to roll around in my head.

Yeah, absolutely. So for those of you that might be listening that I go, "I don't know if I'm comfortable with that what he just said." Um, so I got this theologically. Jesus went to Peter and told him to, like, you know, cast the net on the other side, and they ended up like almost breaking their nets and sinking their boats with how many fish. And Peter is like, "Oh my gosh, this is crazy." And Jesus doesn't tell him, "Hey, you need to get your life right with God." No, what does he do? He says, "Follow me and you'll become fishers of men." What does that mean? Like, Jesus knew what he was doing. He was telling you, "I'm going to transform you from a fisherman to a fisher of men. I have the pathway. Oh, by the way, along the way, your relationship with God is going to take on a whole new level. I know, and later on you will too. But that's not how he started. He started with a marketing campaign, right? Straight to Peter."

Yeah, Peter was just one. So he was inviting him along on a journey that was exciting. You know, you think about that. Like, he filled their nets, and it was like, you know, it wasn't, "Hey, get on your knees, worship me, bow down to me, submit to me." It was like he was inviting them on a journey that was exciting. He filled their nets with fish.

That was such a good point, man. And they were excited about where life was going. They're like, "I'm gonna follow this guy because this guy is supernatural."

Yeah, the revelation of Peter, later that Jesus even says that doesn't come from flesh and blood. The revelation that "You are the Christ, the Son of God." That is the rock that the church, that Ecclesia, is now built on. And so it wasn't like Peter saw that right away, but through his relationship, through Christ walking with him, seeing all the things Jesus asked him, "Who am I to you?" "You are the Christ, the Son of God." But that took revelation. That's a relationship with Jesus to get to that point. But on that point, on that foundation, is where the church stands.

Yeah, good stuff. Yeah, if you got a minute here, we got one minute for a quick thought.

Yeah, yeah. So I think I had a dream last night. It was pretty interesting. I feel like it relates to this conversation. But in the dream, my buddy Jay was leading me down. Like, we had a rock cliff built along a ledge like a mountain, and there's a secret passageway to get down in this cliff. And underneath, inside this cliff, there's offices, buildings, call lines, and they're all people calling in with problems. Whether it was sex trafficking, sexual addiction, whether it was alcoholism, and we would go down there and meet the needs. Well, Jay means victory for the people, and the Bible says, "On this rock I'll build my church. The gates of hell shall not prevail against it." So it's like the Lord is establishing a church, right? That's going to be a call center for the lost, right? And it's almost underground. You're not seeing it anymore. But it's victory for the people. Like, people are going to win in the coming days through building their house on the rock, on the rock of Jesus Christ. So anyway, it was a dream, a strategy on how to. So it all goes together, man. But pretty cool revelation for me last night.

That is awesome, man. That's really cool. That's really cool. Where can people find you online?

Yeah, website's gonna be activationchurch.life. Okay, that's gonna be the web. Yep, activation church.life. And then, you know, online, my name is Michael DeYoung. I love Facebook. I like Instagram too. But Josh has different.

Yeah, you got a podcast too?

Yeah, I just started a podcast called the Simple Truth Podcast.

Nice. Yeah, so excited about that.

Awesome. Well, I'm excited to see what God does through you guys's ministry. And then I, it would be really cool to win all of Iowa for Jesus, wouldn't it?

Hallelujah. That's the goal. That's the goal.

So, man, I had a lot of fun. Uh, hopefully this was helpful. Like, I enjoy doing this and helping churches win.

Amen. Thank you so much. A lot of good stuff.

Thank you.

Awesome. Hey, that was a lot of fun. I loved hanging out with Michael and his team. And so what we want to do is we want to bring this to you often. If this is something that you enjoyed, that you got value out of, and you would like to be a part of, we want to invite you to. So if you want to be a part of this show so I can help you solve your most pressing problem, you can email us at podcast@chestlylunday.com. I know that's hard to spell. That's C-H-E-S-T-L-Y L-U-N-D-A-Y dot com. Again, that's podcast at C-H-E-S-T-L-Y L-U-N-D-A-Y dot com.

The best way this podcast continues to grow is by you posting a rating and review. So if you think more people would enjoy listening and having fun on this podcast just like you would, you please rate and review us on whatever platform you're listening to.

Next podcast, we begin my conversation with a really dear friend of mine who I call the Godfather of Spiritual Gifts. Now listen, I know that doesn't sound like it's sacrilege. It's kind of tongue-in-cheek. He's seventy years old. He likes to think of himself as a millennial. I love him so dearly. But you got God who created spiritual gifts, and Bruce, that helped the church realize that we need them. So Bruce Bugbee has created thirty, forty years of ministry in the spiritual gift space. And if you have taken a spiritual gifts assessment, there's a ninety-five percent chance you took Bruce's. So take a listen.

Because I started youth ministry years ago, loved, loved that. And it always fascinated me how people would use language like, um, "Oh, you know, the youth or the church of tomorrow." What do you guys think? Just seemed very, you know, condescending, frankly. You know what I mean? And I'm thinking, "Well, if they love Jesus and they have the Holy Spirit, are they not the church of today? Why are we kind of patting them on the head and putting them off, you know, until they become an adult or, you know, grow up, get married, have a house, something like that?" Just seemed kind of strange to me.

You can beat digital disorientation, but it takes imagination to innovate. You have the spark of divine creativity. Your organization needs it. I know it isn't cool to feel disrupted, but I believe God has the answer to move you from disrupted to disruptive. All you have to do is move out in faith and try something new.

So thank you for listening to this episode of the Chesley Lunday Experience. We'll see you next time.

And we're back. Thank you, Michael DeYoung, for taking a part and even being a part of the Church Digital. Michael's getting some double dip here with the Chesley Lunday Experience and also here on the Church Digital Podcast. So Chesley, as you're listening to this now for the second time or the third time or the fifth time, and I know how podcasts go when you're the creator, hey, like, what were some takeaways? What's something that maybe stood out to you from the conversation?

Well, I love Michael and his team's vision. Like, that's first off. They have a passion for it. They realized very quickly who their one was. And if you listen to Michael's story, like, in a strip club having a spiritual conversation with another heathen, I mean, that's a big deal, right? And you're hearing the fact that, "Hey, I'm not nearly as good as I need to be." And the fact that Michael knows that the people that he's after are a lot like he used to be. And so they were clear about that. They knew who their audience was. And it's not like they are shunning anybody else that wants to be a part of their church. They're just realizing they have a missionary zeal for somebody that is in the situation that Michael found himself in all those years ago. And so I love that part.

The other piece of this is obviously I always get this question first: "What platform should we be focused on?" And the answer is that's not the question you start with. You know this, Jeff. We should be asking ourselves better questions. "Who is God calling us to serve? What is our message?" And when we know the person we're going to serve, it's better to look at where are they at. We do this naturally as a missionary in our context where we live, work, learn, or play.

Hey, yeah, you know, I love that, Chesley. When we talked about that, right? It was like at Stadia in the cohort with the planting. It was like churches having ones and going after specific ones, right?

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, Jesus has a hundred sheep. He talks about it, right? And then ninety-nine of them are fine. One of them is going off, wandering off, alone in the wilderness. And he's going to be the good shepherd to go after that lost one. Every church should have a missionary zeal. They should know who they're going after. You're not called or uniquely gifted to go after everyone. Your community has a specific someone that God has wired genetically in your church's DNA to reach. And you should be focusing on that. Your community as a whole should be rallying around that. And only when you know that should you begin to think about your message.

Now, your message is the thing that will resonate with your one. What is the way to communicate the Gospel story to the one that will resonate with them? People don't buy Jesus at the beginning. They buy the solutions to their problems. We all know, though, that the solution to their problem is Jesus. Jesus did this with Peter. They're in the middle of a lake. They have fished all night, hadn't seen it. Um, Peter is coming in, and Jesus says, "Hey, go fishing again." And he's like, "Well, we haven't caught anything." He's like, "But I know who you are, so I'll go do it." Got caught the fish. It was then that Jesus said, "I'm gonna make you fishers of men." He said, "You've been a fisherman, but now I'm gonna make you fishers of men." There was a transformation story Jesus was inviting Peter to. And Jesus knew the solution to his problem was him. And yet Peter was going to find that out along the way.

So your message has to resonate to your one. And then the question becomes, "What platform is your one on?" That's when we answer that question.

Love it. Such wisdom right there. Don't just go with the blanket, "Oh, we're on Facebook, over on YouTube." But really it comes down to honing in on the one and where the one is and what platforms you should be using for that.

Is a great conversation once again. Chesley Alum Day Experience, the link is in the show notes. Feel free to go check that out and subscribe to that. You're on Monday as well? When are you? When do you normally publish?

Yeah, yeah, on Monday. Yep, Mondays. Cool, yeah, Mondays. Monday's a great day.

I'm not saying he's trying to steal some of my thunder, but it's okay. Go, go check them out and dig into that. We can—no, no, that's the beauty of podcasts. You don't have to. You can pick a day and listen to them all at the same time, or you can listen to them. I'm going to listen to this one on Monday, this one on Tuesday, listen four months from now. It's okay. We'll play nice.

Four months? Four months from now? Yeah, I still—the top listened episode for me is still Daniel Herron, um, talking about Robloxian Christians. Like, he is—I'm not serious—like eight times more listened to than every other podcast that I've got. And I—that was like, uh, three years ago. Like, it's like I can't believe people are still listening to that thing. Uh, but it is. And evidently there's a need for like metaverse and Robloxian churches because evidently people are looking for that. But anyway, we're going to land the plane.

Hey, this is a great, great podcast. Go check out the Chesley London Experience subscription. Uh, link in the, uh, in the show notes. And, uh, check out FAM while you're there in the show notes as well.

Hey, Chesley, as we're landing the plane, any closing thoughts?

Yes, join us on fam.digitalchurch.network. We would love to see you there. We know you need family. We know you need prayer. We know you need training for the next era of church. We would love to help you do that.

Maybe we need a shorter vanity URL to join FAM. Like, that's that's long. We got—we'll offline that conversation, but that's a conversation for another day.

Hey, this is Jeff with the Church Digital Digital Church Network, and Chesley for the Church Digital Digital Church Network and a whole bunch of other stuff, man. It's a bunch of—it's a fun day right now to be doing digital ministry. This is great. But we're going to land the plane. We're going to wrap up. Thanks for joining the podcast here. We'll see you next time on the show. Y'all have a good one.