EP220: Brianna Heida, Overcoming Medical Issues, and the Strength of Weakness

When I fell, you know, the first couple weeks I was getting texts and phone calls from people saying, "Oh, I hope you get better soon. I hope, you know, this, this, this heals quickly," whatever. But as those weeks dragged on into months, like people just disappeared and I felt completely isolated and forgotten.

Um, my local church did nothing. Like it's, it's like nobody realized that I had just dropped off the face of the earth. And that was really when I started leaning harder into my online relationships. Like Facebook became a lifeline for me, and um, using social media was the only way I could stay connected to the outside world for a very long time.

Welcome to the Church Digital Podcast. Through this podcast we'll talk about the technological innovations within the church, but more than tech for tech itself will address deeper questions. Is disciple making possible digitally? How should we approach the digital mission field? Can a biblically grounded church operate in digital space? Oh, and where does the metaverse fit into all this? Whether you're a big or small church, an established church or a startup church plant, the Church Digital's goal is to help churches like yours learn to be a multiplying church digitally and physically. Our heart is that churches like yours would discover a newfound focus on disciple making that will revolutionize your church. And now here's your host, Jeff Reed.

Alright, hey everybody, welcome to the Church Digital Podcast. This is episode 220. We are in the 20s. Uh, I'm feeling really old at this point, but not because we've done 220 of these podcasts. I just realized that 44 is the age where like your body breaks down because that's literally happening to me right now. But that's an entirely separate side conversation than what we want to get into. Well, actually it may get there at some point, but not really what I wanted to focus on with this conversation today.

So hey, we've got a great guest coming up here, but once again, it's just even kicking off here, I wanted to invite all of you. If you've not joined FAM, if you've not joined Digital Church Network's online community called Family, FAM, I want to invite you to be a part of it. Uh, because really when it comes to, I don't know, people who think different, people who have crazy ideas, people who are excited missionally about doing things in digital and metaverse spaces. I don't know about you, but I get lots of weird looks from like the outside realm, people who don't think the way that I think. They look at me like I'm a freak, and uh, and I start talking about some of the stuff that I'm doing, and I can't tell you how many hundreds of times that I've heard the phrases, "Jeff, it doesn't work that way," when in fact it really, it really does.

And so we created this FAM, this online community, almost as a sort of island of misfit toys. I don't know if that's really the way we want to describe that publicly, but it's this idea of, hey, let's gather people like-minded to challenge each other, iron sharpen iron, celebrate the wins, pray through the losses, and find ways to live on missional imagination, to do things differently for the kingdom in digital and metaverse space, to walk with God in these spaces, going with him as he is doing things for the kingdom. And so that's the heart of what we're trying to do. We've created community. We've created opportunities for care and opportunities for coaching, all on Digital Church Network's FAM.

So here's what I want you to do: digitalchurch.network/joinfam. We'll put the link in the show notes, digitalchurch.network/joinfam, and uh, it's free. Set up an account, meet some people, have some conversations, pray for each other, and I don't know, maybe get some help as you're on your digital and metaverse journey. Good times, good times there.

And uh, and so hey, let's get into the conversation here with the guests for this podcast. You know, uh, Brianna, what I've not managed to do with the podcast is transition well from the commercial into the actual guest every week. It's awkward, and I just really made that transition really bad. So you'll have to forgive me, guests at home. I don't care what you think, but for Brianna, I feel bad for transitioning into this, so I'm just gonna tell you right up off the top here. Brianna is arguably one of my favorite digital church planters. Like, I've loved what you've done. I've loved the heart of what you're doing. You were probably, you know, when I worked with you previously, um, you had an eye for digital discipleship in an age where not a lot of people did, and that resonated with me. I don't know, maybe well two, three years ago when we first met, and so I am, I can't believe it's taken us this long to actually have you on the podcast, have a conversation. So I'm looking forward to it. By the way, I'm talking to, uh, yeah, I'll, Brianna, I'll actually let you talk at some point in this podcast. At the beginning, it's just going to be the Jeffrey chill. But uh, Brianna is uh, is the um, lead pastor of Painted Prayers. And I tell Brianna, just even to kick this off a little bit, while you tell the church a little bit about, or tell the podcast here a little bit about your church, Painted Prayers.

Yeah, thanks. Um, that was a little bit intimidating of an introduction there, but I will try to live up to the hype. Um, so yeah, I planted a digital church uh, by accident actually, and then sort of had to backpedal a little bit and make sure that I was going about it correctly and having a strong foundation behind it. But essentially, uh, we, our church uses creativity as an inroad to creating relationship with the Holy Spirit and with God and getting to know Christ. And um, it's just been a really exciting journey to see the way that God, like the direction that God has taken us, and um, kind of what's up ahead.

How long have you been? Because I know you, you were doing it, you paused your reset, like kind of how, how long have you been running the church kind of in this current implementation?

So where we are right now, I would say is where we've been for the past year, um, which is sort of uh, a low-level um, sort of quiet movement. Um, prior to that, I started this as a non-profit ministry back in 2016. So I've been doing sort of this art as spiritual practice ministry for quite a long time, uh, and and then it's sort of evolved and transformed and expanded to to where we are now, which is you know, with a full-blown community and discipleship pathway and um, all these different resources coming together.

So what's the role of of art in your in your digital church? Like, is everyone an artist? Are you using art as as part of of worship? Like, maybe explain a little bit the theming and maybe the target of who you're trying to reach through Painted Prayers?

Yeah, that's a really good question. So it started as just art, um, that was sort of the the initial impetus, but it has expanded to anything that could be considered creative. So we've got people who are gardeners or love to cook and bake and see that as their creative outlet. Um, people who really get creative with spreadsheets. I mean, that's exciting. Um, so so there's a lot of different expressions of creativity that we that we sort of cultivate within our church. Uh, you don't have to be an actual artist or consider yourself artistic or creative in any manner, because the idea is that what we're going after is the uh, the picture that we're first introduced to, God as creator, and we're tapping into the the idea that we can connect most authentically when we co-create with God, or we allow, like, you know, we invite God into what we're creating and and allow that to lead. Um, and so that's sort of the the starting point for everything, whether it comes out again, like as gardening or or painting or anything in between. Um, that's for the individual to figure out.

Yeah, I can't believe you used the spreadsheet analogy for creative when I was creative director at a church just go back a decade. Actually, I told an accountant that it was my that at the church I was working at as creative director, I told one of the accountants, one of the bean counters, that it was my goal uh, to get them to realize that they could be creative with their spreadsheets. And the woman laughed in my face like for multiple years.

Yeah, no, they are all the time.

Yeah, no, I know they are. They don't know they are. I mean, literally, like, it was the running joke for years. "You think I'm creative?" "Yes, I do think you're creative. How do you use the tabs and the labels and the colors and the the equations, the formulas? It's all, maybe at least I think it is."

Absolutely, absolutely. You're just solving problems. That's all creativity is. I, you just brought back so many memories for me with that one comment. That was beautiful.

Uh, well, hey, tell me this. What, so you're doing this ministry centered around creativity, you're you're passionate about art. Um, what makes this thing a church?

Um, so this is where it gets kind of funny because I literally was just taking one step after the other. So when I first started, um, I I had done my own healing journey and God used art and journaling and sort of these other creative avenues to do some like profound spiritual healing in me. And then once I kind of discovered the power of that and and how intimately I could connect with God on that level, uh, I felt like God was saying, "Okay, now you have to teach other people how to do this too." So I started the the ministry with doing workshops and teaching people, like, I mean, sort of like the the sip and paint workshops, except we weren't doing like paint by number. We were doing, "Let's let the Holy Spirit guide this," and um, and it was just so amazing to see, you know, I didn't know if this was gonna work for anybody other than me, and and I would have all these breakthroughs and breakdowns and just incredible movements of God happening around these tables.

And um, my health took a downturn and I wasn't able to go out and do these workshops anymore. And that's when God was like, "Okay, now the next step is we're going to start training other people to teach this." And so I created this training program to train instructors, and it sort of took them through the first half of it. It takes them through the process for themselves so they could be um, sort of in step with the Holy Spirit more, could be able to understand what discipleship means, um, learn these creative spiritual practices for themselves. And then the second half of the training was, "Okay, this is how you disciple other people into this same spiritual practice." And that went amazing. It took off in ways that I definitely did not expect. I had people from all across the country and someone in South Africa who uh, was taking this training and becoming an instructor.

And then after that, there was somebody who said, "Well, okay, so I've got a friend who really wants to to learn more but doesn't really want to teach other people yet. Like, she's not really there. Is there something for her?" And so I said, "Well, yeah, I could, I could split this training into the two pieces and do like a leadership training, but first you have to go through this this discipleship path." And so then just little by little, you know, we started adding in community groups. We started adding in other resources, and little by little it just started to take on this life of its own as an actual church, which I didn't realize was happening until COVID hit.

And I was working at the time as the online pastor for my local church and having so many conversations with people who, I mean, everybody panicked when COVID hit and they all had to go online. And I know all of us who were already in digital ministry were finding ourselves in that that position of having conversations and coaching others and whatever. And so I started to pull in not just the things that I was doing with online church but also in my ministry, which was all based online. And that was when I realized, "Wait a minute..."

There's more going on here than just a random little ministry. Like, this is a full-blown church. Well, too, let me ask you this. Um, how do you, you know, you've been doing this a couple years, how do you make off and on, maybe? And so you're focused, how do you measure success? Like, is it numbers? Is it views? Is it new people? Like, what are some of the metrics? Are you even looking at metrics to help you figure out success?

We are looking at metrics because they're there and they're useful. But that's not our primary measure of success. So we do want to know, you know, how many people are in the community, how many people are engaging with the pathway, how many people, you know, that kind of stuff is important information to have. But primarily we lean on stories to measure success. So how many people are sharing their personal testimony? How many people are sharing stories of transformation within their individual groups or on their social media or in these different arenas? And so we kind of have a system set up using, you know, tracking hashtags, tracking within our community platform. We've got the ability to share stories within there, so we can kind of keep count and keep track of what's happening in the lives of our people. But really, we made the conscious decision that metrics were going to kind of fall secondary because they don't tell the full story.

So you're going for more, what is that, more qualitative?

Getting more qualitative. Qualitative over quantitative. Yep.

Now, do you, like, is there a sermon in this thing? Are you all just, um, I don't mean just to be insulted, but it's you're completely distributed where people are leading in small groups. Um, is there any centralized to this?

There is. And this is what we're about to launch into this sort of next phase of a weekly rhythm that is a little more structured than what we've been doing up to this point. So we're gonna follow the common lectionary as our sort of scripture guidance for week to week rhythms. And so we're following the church calendar, which I think is really meaningful in the bigger picture of what we're trying to accomplish as a church. And so at the beginning of the week on Monday, um, we post the scripture readings for the week. And then over the course of the week within our community, we've got discussion questions, we've got engagement around the scripture itself. We have resources for parents to follow through with their kids. Um, so maybe around the dinner table they discuss this, they ask questions, they try and help their kids apply it to their weekly lives and do the same, you know, modeling it for them. And then at the end of the week, uh, we have a Sabbath dinner. So everybody participates in their own sort of Sabbath dinner, whether they choose Friday or Saturday or Sunday to do that, and invite either friends or family or neighbors to join them for this. And that's another time of being able to sort of indulge in the scripture and share what they've learned through it throughout the week. And then we have, instead of having a regular sermon, uh, worship sort of, um, the traditional church service, we do a worship service that is creative-based. So either, you know, something with music, something with art, something that's very sort of experiential and tactile that draws them deeper into the truths that they've been learning through the week. So that's sort of just a weekly rhythm.

So is that experience digital? Is that experience, it is, it's digital but can be taken further. So you can, if you're joining us by yourself, if you're just, you know, a lone person, um, you can just tune in and do it with the group digitally. If you want to, then you can take it and invite neighbors or friends or a group of people over and do the same experience together in a group. So it's really the goal here is to make this as accessible as possible at whatever level you're participating. So giving people options to do it solo or eventually the hope is that you'll invite other people into it with you.

All right, I'm gonna bite here. Give me an example. Like, I mean, it's listen, here's the deal. Like, in the average church in America, the average creative is three songs and a sermon. And so you're talking about creating, uh, you know, a created shared digital experience online. So yeah, I'm curious. Get like, what's your favorite one? Give me a couple examples here, maybe as inspiration for some churches that are in a rut digitally.

Yeah, so I'll tell you one of the most surprising ones that I've tried that has worked really well. Um, it's a bit of a risk because anytime you do anything virtually, I think we've all learned at this point that there's a fine line between novel and wonky, and you know, like where it can go off the rails real fast. Um, but this one, I decided we were going to do a Lectio Divina together. And I thought, like, how do you do that virtually without losing people or without them, you know, getting distracted or, you know, whatever? Um, but it actually was incredibly impactful. And I think the fact that I was asking them to do something different than what they had experienced previously on, you know, Zoom calls and things like that, um, because I gave them permission to turn off their cameras and to, you know, really immerse themselves in the exercise that we were doing, um, it just really, I think, freed them to be more present than they're used to being digitally. And so it ended up being a really powerful exercise.

Interesting. Very, very cool. Um, well, you mentioned earlier, I mean, let's pivot a little bit here. You mentioned that uh, you had some health issues, and these, this, you know, maybe influenced why you moved towards the digital. And so would you feel comfortable maybe sharing a little bit, um, you know, what some of these health issues are that you're struggling with?

Yeah, absolutely. I have had health issues on and off for the majority of my adult life. Um, and it never really got terribly bad until right before I turned thirty. I ended up kind of going through a health crisis. This is when God really stepped in and introduced the idea of Painted Prayers to me. It was that first really bad health crisis, and I was completely upended by it. Um, doctors had no idea what was going on. They couldn't. I was running test after test and seeing, I think, seventeen different specialists, and it was just overwhelming and completely sidelined me at the time. And then, um, it sort of went into remission. And so we thought, okay, well, maybe it's gone, you know, maybe I'm fine. And then, uh, in 2016, right before I formed the actual nonprofit for Painted Prayers, um, I started getting these really terrible headaches. I ended up, um, falling down the stairs. I had a neurological episode of some sort, fell down the stairs, injured myself really badly, and couldn't heal. And they couldn't figure out why. And so again, we went through this whole cycle of doctors and tests, and I went to the Mayo Clinic and I saw the Cleveland Clinic. And I mean, all these specialists. And I ended up being diagnosed, um, first with lupus. And they thought, okay, this is it. We found it. We figured it out. We got the lupus under control over the course of a year or two, and my blood work was on point. It was excellent. The doctor's like, you're fine. And I'm like, no, I'm not, because I was still in excruciating pain every day. I still had all these crazy symptoms that were going on. And, um, they aligned with lupus, but clearly it wasn't just lupus or something else at play. And actually, it wasn't until my teenage daughter started having some of the same symptoms that our primary care doctor finally connected the dots and realized that we had a genetic disorder, which is called Ehlers-Danlos Syndrome. It's EDS for short. And it's basically all of the connective tissue in my body is defective. And so it affects everything from, I mean, joints and skin and digestive tract and eyes and brain. And I mean, there's nothing untouched by connective tissue. So, um, so that has left me disabled. And when I first got sick, um, when I first fell, I should say, um, up until that point, I was really active in my local community. Like, I was in all the networking groups. I had my own business that I was running. I was just all over the place and connected everywhere. And, um, when I fell, you know, the first couple weeks I was getting texts and phone calls from people saying, oh, I hope you get better soon. I hope, you know, this heals quickly, whatever. But as those weeks dragged on into months, like people just disappeared. And I felt completely isolated and forgotten. Um, my local church did nothing. Like, it's like nobody realized that I had just dropped off the face of the earth. And that was really when I started leaning harder into my online relationships. Like, Facebook became a lifeline for me. And, um, using social media was the only way I could stay connected to the outside world for a very long time.

Wow. First off, thank you for sharing that. I, I know, um, you know, there's some sensitive things in that story. And my wife has not the EDS, but we, she has a background with fibro and with, um, lupus. Um, and so like, just a question for you. As you leaned into that community, was it just timetable? Was this like before church? When you were doing the church, was this complementing? Kind of as you were doing the church, how did the health issues and what you're doing with Painted Prayers, how does that fit in into the timeline?

It's actually kind of cool to see the way that God so purposefully used my illness and disability to move me where he wanted me. Um, so when I first, um, when I first fell and was injured and realized I wasn't getting better right away, that's when God was like, okay, now that you're a captive audience, we're gonna do this ministry thing. So that's when I started it. Um, and then as I started to heal and got some mobility back and everything, that's when I started going out and doing the workshops. And then the symptoms just kept getting worse and worse and worse. And eventually I couldn't, you know, within a few months, I couldn't do the workshops at all anymore. And so then that's when God was like, okay, now we're gonna teach other people to do this. So now that you can't, like, this is where we're taking it next. Um, and then when I couldn't attend my local church anymore, I didn't have one friend who's a pastor on staff there. And he reached out to me and said, hey, we're thinking about starting a digital campus. And you are the person I know that would be the best at leading all this and taking all this or whatever. And so I came on under him at first. And then within a couple of months, he transitioned off staff to go plant his own church. And so then I was a digital pastor. And again, like, the only reason I got to be in that role was because, like, everybody knew, oh, this is Brianna's world now. So that became really clear. So yeah, I mean, just every step of the way, like, God has used what I am experiencing in order to propel things forward.

Do you feel, and it's, you know, I'm here, first off, I find it amazing that you got sick and God leads you to multiply. I know, like, yeah, right, really. That's just an interesting, uh, you know, and I'm sorry that it took, like, I don't know, these diseases to get you to the point of multiplication. But that, what a beautiful story of I can no longer do this, and so God is not leading me to shut up shop and no longer do anything.

God's now leading me to the place of training and multiplying into others and helping them do what it's just a beautiful posture of forgiving the terms, just humility and weakness. I cannot do this. I need someone else. God, bring me the people. Oh, look, here they are. Okay, let's do this. Exactly. Like, that's just, if there's anything that a digital church can learn, it's that right there. Is this idea of, hey, let's not work hard and do this on our own accord, but let's operate in weakness where God can use us to multiply. And now we are living through others. It's just such a beautiful day. Do you feel like you're, and this may be a silly question after that, but do you feel like your digital ministry is hindered in any way by the health? Like, is it, and I'm meaning let's talk physical. Let's even talk emotional, mental. Like, there's a lot of different things flying around here, right? What does this look like for you on the complete spectrum?

Yeah, so it's interesting because every time I feel like, every time I come up against something and I think, oh, surely this is it. Like, this is the final nail on this coffin. This is where it ends. This is where, you know, I can't go any further. It seems like that's when God, like, opens things up wider than I could have expected. Um, and so, like, for example, um, you know, you're talking about, uh, like mental health and emotional health and things like that. Well, I found out a year ago at thirty-eight, a year ago I found out that I'm autistic and I had no idea. And so, um, yeah, and so then I thought, oh, man, well, that means I clearly am not qualified to plant a church and be a pastor and lead people and all the things. But having gotten that understanding of myself and recognizing then it's not so much a limitation as it is a difference, but it actually allows me into spaces and to feel compassion and empathy for people in ways that, um, most people don't have access to. And so instead of, again, like, instead of that being sort of like the door slamming shut in my face like I expected, it actually opens up a whole new category of people that I am uniquely positioned to reach. Because do you know how many people are autistic and have social anxiety and can't go to physical church and won't step into a foreign building like that? Like, all of a sudden I've just realized on a whole new level how I can connect with them.

Yeah, I mean, my next question was literally going to be, do you feel yourself, uh, like, because of your current position, are you attracting people to your church that have some of these, uh, the physical ailments and things like that, the autism, like, that I mean, I said spectrum earlier, not in record. I know that that just brings in a whole other paradigm. I wasn't, to be honest, I was not aware of that walking into this. Um, I mean, this is incredible. And so you've got multiple health issues. You've got autism. Um, are you, I mean, are you, I don't want to say the word shut-in, but are you like locked in the house? Are you able to get out? Like, what does an everyday for you look like in your current situation?

Oh, that's a really good question. I, so on a daily basis, I am pretty shut in. I'm not able because of my health limitations. Um, I'm a wheelchair user and, um, I struggle in getting places by myself. Like, it's hard because I can use my wheelchair and if I absolutely have to, like, go to a doctor's appointment, I can, I can manage. But then I'm down for like four days afterwards because of the toll it takes on me to do that. Um, and half the time I'll, like, dislocate a shoulder in the process or something ridiculous if I don't have help. So, um, so yeah, I'm pretty either tethered to my husband or, like, so like if we, if we have stuff that we want to do, like, I either need him or one of my teenagers to help me out with that. Um, otherwise, yeah, I'm stuck in the house twenty-four seven outside of that. Um, and it's, it's, it's not as challenging as it used to be. I think when I first got really sick because I was used to being so independent. Um, I think that it hit me really hard for a long time. And then now I have this, I have this new appreciation for dependence on others that I think helps me to be more dependent on God because I, because I see like how much more successful I am and my family is when we, when we were able to, like, depend on each other. Like, when I depend on my husband fully instead of trying to be stubborn and do it myself. Um, and so that, that translates a lot, I think, into my relationship with God too.

This is, this is so weird. Uh, you just, you're, you're, you have found yourself in a position of weakness. Um, and, and by being in a position of weakness, God has actually opened up doors of strength. Um, and, and yes, there, there's a dependency. I'm sorry, there's dependence, maybe in ways that you didn't have before. But even that, that dependence isn't a sign of weakness. It's a sign of opportunities and strengths. Go ahead.

Yeah, no, I was just going to say, you know, the, the, um, when Paul says, you know, God's power is made perfect in my weakness, like, I have, I never understood that to the extent that I understand it now. That God, like, when I let myself be weak and I let myself be not enough and I accept that about myself, then God gets to step in and do these crazy, wild, wonderful things that I can't even, I couldn't even imagine, you know, a couple years ago that I would be a church planter or, you know, any of the other things that I'm doing. But, but yeah, and so it's hard because I mean there are definitely times when I get a little bit resentful and wish that I could do it on my own. Like, I really, really, really wish that I just could power through things the way I used to or that, like, when stuff gets hard or tricky, I could just, like, buckle down and muscle through it. And, and I know that I can't. And so, like, that means that this process has gone a lot slower than I would like it to. Um, it means that I can't do all the things that my brain imagines or dreams up or whatever. Like, I have all these great ideas and God's like, yeah, but you need to rest this week, so we're not going to do any of those things. And so, um, yeah, it's just this constant, it's this constant need to, um, stay humble and stay dependent and, and just constantly go through that.

What a beautiful story. Would you mind, could you share maybe a story or two of how you're doing ministry, who you're doing ministry with, maybe even some of the stories of the people you're reaching through pain and prayers? I'd love to hear some stories.

Yeah, I'm, I'm always just sort of in awe of the way that God has, like, moved people in my path. And, and sort of, I mean, especially now, you would think that, like, as a shut-in, like, who on earth am I gonna come across or who am I gonna, you know, be able to influence or impact? Um, but actually it's been the opposite. It, um, it's really cool to see, even, even just like as I post on social media, like, I'll post something on Facebook or I'll post a comment on somebody else's post. Um, and I've had people who, um, like, for instance, one of the things that I really like to do, um, partly just because it helps me stay sane, is that, like, when somebody posts on social media and says, hey, I could use prayers for XYZ, like, instead of just commenting saying, oh, praying or whatever, like, I'll actually private message them and pray for them in the message. And even just that small act, I mean, it takes like five minutes. And, you know, sometimes it's, I hate to say it, but sometimes it's not always wholehearted and it's still just something that I'm like, oh, yeah, I can do this real quick. Um, but the impact that that makes on people, um, it just, it's just really surprising to me because that doesn't feel like I'm doing much. But I've had people who will come back to me three weeks, a month later and say, hey, you, this sounds weird, but you know that day that you prayed for me? Like, I just feel like that changed something in me and I wondered if we could talk a little bit more about it. And so it's opened up the door for me to have, like, really powerful conversations. Um, I've been able to work with a couple of, like, two people now, um, in the last year who have been struggling to get out of an abusive relationship. And I've helped to guide them through that process, help connect them with the local help they needed to do that. Um, so yeah, it just opens up a lot of opportunities that, um, that I didn't anticipate.

Where's your church going? Like, what's the goal? What's the, what's the five-year? Do you have a picture of where you're heading? Is the goal to continue to multiply, to create more? Is it operate more in context of where you are? Is it release it to somebody else? Is there any desire to go physical, even outside of maybe some of your medical, um, ailments? Like, what, what do you feel like the future is holding here for Painted Prayers?

So first of all, I have learned that, uh, my plans are one thing and God's plans are something else entirely. So I hold this all very loosely, like, open-handed. Um, you know, do, do with this as you will, Lord. Um, with that being said though, I definitely have a vision for, um, just the way that this could spread and reach and connect with people, um, that traditional churches can't get close to. So our mission is to connect the disconnected. And when I talk about the disconnected, you know, I'm talking about physically, emotionally, spiritually. There is a million reasons why people are disconnected from the church these days. There are an obscene number of people who don't feel safe in the church. And I just, like, stuff like that, it just completely crushes my heart. And so my goal is to create this sort of back door into faith, right? It's a, it's a non-intimidating, barrier-free way to connect with the truth of who God is and what Jesus talked about. And in order to do that, I think we definitely have to keep multiplying. Um, but it doesn't, it doesn't necessarily look like any of the traditional models, right? Um, I think about the, um, the starfish and the spider. That, uh, I don't know if you've read that book, but it's, it's, it's really, um, not about spinning spider webs. It's about creating these decentralized sort of, um, embodiments of church that can express themselves in a myriad different ways. So if somebody wants to start a gardening club in their local community and call that part of Painted Prayers church, I'm here for it, right? Like, like, I'm, I'm in, sign me up, like, let's do it. If somebody, um, has, you know, like, uh, decides that they want to bring all of their actual literal neighbors together and do block parties once a week and have food and celebrate and whatever and call that part of Painted Prayers church, I'm in, like, let's do it. So, um, I think it's going to look a lot of different ways. I think it's going to surprise all of us, myself included. Um, but I'm excited to see where it spreads because I know it's going to.

Yeah, your, uh, your decentralization spirit shining through. Um, by the way, have you read, you know, Starfish in the Spirit? Uh, excuse me, Starfish and the Spider? No, no, that read that a while back. Have you seen, um, Starfish in the Spirit? Oh, yes, yes, sorry, that's the one I meant. Yeah, yeah, I read them both, but yeah, yeah, Starfish in the Spirit. Yeah, you were talking, yeah, you were talking decentralizing the church. And Rob, Rob Wagner's a good friend who's been on the show. Uh, I've talked with Alan Hirsch a couple times. And so anyway, it's, um, that, that decent, honestly, and we were having this conversation, uh, the other night, uh, talking about blockchain and cryptocurrencies and just this cultural shift that, that we, that a lot of us see coming as a result of, um, you know, just this decentralizational cultural shift as a result of some of these technologies, even highlighting some of the things that that you're talking about. I mean, whether this thing hits the magnitude that some think or or not, what, what I've seen is that.

Churches like yours reach a different type of person than the buildings are reaching, like in medical issues or even not the decentralized approach, a nuanced audience towards art and creativity. There's a number of things that you're creating a safe environment for, and you use the word safe earlier, but you're creating a safe environment for people to come in and talk that aren't going to feel safe talking in the environments that they're that the physical churches is offering. And that's not a knock on the physicals, but it's a recognition that we, the church in 2022 and beyond, we need to listen to more contextualizations. We need the Holy Spirit to point us in different directions and not just start carbon copying everything like maybe we have been in past years. And honestly, I think that's why I love what you're doing so much through Painted Prayers, because you have a focus on disciple making and multiplication. You have a really interesting discipleship process. You have a nuance with your creative aim that you're doing, and you're operating out of a point of weakness where you have all these mental health issues or assuming not mental health, physical health issues, and that hasn't slowed you down. That's empowering you because you're operating in your weakness and allowing God to move in places that you aren't, and he is leading you in this rather than you dragging him behind you. It's just this beautiful picture. So thank you for doing that.

Let me ask this. Somebody out there has some medical issues. You know, they can relate, whether it's the EDS, whether it's the fibro, whether it's the lupus, whether it's a number of things I could say right now. I don't know that we need to put a label on it. But you're operating out of weakness and you're building something that's impressive. How does somebody get started? Okay, so I've got some medical issues. I know how to spell the word digital. Like, what? How do I start a church? And really, even operate out of a place of weakness in that? What advice would you give somebody like that?

So first of all, I am always available to chat about this kind of thing. So if somebody legit wants to have this conversation, like I'm always here for that. But I think the biggest thing is to start with where you are and what's in front of you. I think that every step of the way for me it's been about looking around and saying, okay, so what can I do? I think a lot of times those of us with chronic illness and disability issues, we constantly come up against the limitations, and sometimes all we can think is I can't do this, I can't do that. So instead, flip that around a little bit and start asking yourself, what can I do? What is available to me? So maybe that's something super basic. Maybe you just start by actually private messaging people prayers when they ask for it on social media. Maybe that's where you start. Or maybe it's starting a Bible study or some sort of small group and just learning to build connections and to speak into people's lives from where you're at.

I think one of the things that really struck me when I was a couple years into this disability stuff, my oldest daughter was seventeen at the time, and she said something about the way it used to be and the things that we used to do together. And I kind of broke down and I told her, I said, I'm sorry that I can't do those things anymore. I'm so sorry that this is where we've ended up, and that you know, literally all I can do now is sit here and talk to you. And she stopped and she looked at me and she said, Mom, our conversations are the most meaningful part of my adolescence. She said the fact that we've had so many good conversations over the last two years, I wouldn't trade that for anything. She's like, I don't care about going to the park anymore. She's like, I don't care about you know, going out for ice cream and doing whatever. She's like, I got you. She goes, and that's really all I needed.

So I think a lot of times we can get so caught up in the things that we can't do and the things that we've lost that we completely lose sight of the magic that God is working right in our midst.

Hey, this has been a great conversation, and if you're out there and if you're listening, maybe this resonates with you or maybe there's an opportunity to do something different, to reach a different type of person. One of the things that I love about Brianna's story is that she has, I mean, if you're watching on YouTube, she literally has a painting behind her. She is a creative person, and the creativity that she has, the creativity that God gave her, she figured out how to utilize that to create a church in digital space, which is an incredible story in itself. Add in the medical issues and the things that have risen up, and the fact that now she's not only attracting creative people to the church but also becoming a magnet to some medical issue type people. Like, all of a sudden now she's able to influence a completely different set of people, a completely different audience than who she had through the physical building. Physical buildings are necessary. Physical buildings will keep doing what the physical building will do, but we need to get more voices. We need to get more churches out there, and I think Brianna's is a great example of a church that's reaching a different type of person than what the building is reaching.

So Brianna, Ben, thank you for doing this. Thank you for excited about your relaunch or your update, whatever we're calling it, that the next phase of Painted Prayers, and what that's going to bring as a result. Always experimenting, always trying something different. But hey, as we're landing the plane here, any closing thoughts?

No, I just want to thank you for having this conversation. I think that even if there's people out there who are doing any sort of digital ministry, the disconnected, the people that are sort of on the margins when it comes to health and wellness and spiritual woundings and that sort of thing, we're easily overlooked and forgotten. So I think even just having these conversations to remind people that we're here and that we need to be served and loved too, I think that's really great. So I appreciate that.

Well, thank you for doing it. Thank you for doing what you're doing and for jumping on the show here. Excited to see where God's leading you, and we'll definitely be praying about what's next for Painted Prayers. But hey, we're gonna wrap. So for Brianna, this is Jeff with the Church Digital and Digital Church Network. Thanks for jumping on the podcast here. We'll see you next time on the show. You have a good day.