EP262 - Exponential & The Gaming Church

Welcome to the Church Digital Podcast. Through this podcast we'll talk about the technological innovations within the church, but more than that, we'll protect itself. We'll address deeper questions. Is disciple making possible digitally? How should we approach the digital mission field? Can a biblically grounded church operate in digital space? And where does the metaverse fit into all this? Whether you're a big or small church, an established church or a startup church, the Church Digital's goal is to help churches like yours learn to be a multiplying church digitally and physically. Our heart is that churches like yours will discover a newfound focus on disciple making that will revolutionize your church. And now here's your host, Jeff Reed.

Well, hey everybody, and welcome to the Digital Church Podcast. I'm Mark Jeffrey. Is unfortunately not able to be with us, so you're saying I'm Mark Jeffrey? Hi, hi, I'm Mark Jeffrey. Uh, no, Jeff Reed is unable to be here. The normal host has anybody ever hosted the Church Digital Podcast without? Yes, you did, Andy, did yeah, and then everybody yeah, it's the most played. Yeah, yes, yeah, he just listens to it at home on his server. Um, but we're here because all of us are currently at Exponential in Orlando and we're hanging out and Jess is off networking, cruising. Yeah, he might be napping right now. Yeah, he's like, I can't make it. I have a scheduled nap in the vendor hall behind a table somewhere. That's how he's doing that. Um, next year you're not, you don't have gold status yet. Yeah, so we're here and we're just gonna be talking about our experience at Expo. Um, and because Expo is like the resounding thing that I've heard in like every session I've been in and everything is um like this constant drive of like, this is the way we did it in the church, it's not working. And so there's so much innovation. It's been everything from digital ministry to jiu jitsu ministry, uh, to you know, barbecue ministry, pressure washing pastors. Um, like there's a pressure washing pastor. Yeah, moving from pressure washing simulator into becoming a pastor who pressure washes. Brewing or brewing pastors. And I was like, oh, it doesn't sound like a pressure washing machine. Yes, yeah, yeah. Um, so in all of that, like we're here, got a lot of innovators who are here in the room and on camera with us. So we want to talk a little bit about um the amazing Airbnb that we're getting the chance to stay at together. Um, cheese under the comforter, then you know you've arrived. Andy and Annie's sleeping on an air mattress in a laundry room right now, sleeping in the laundry room. Yeah, I know it's been great. I could chew on the air. Yeah.

Lux Digital Church. And this uh next to me is Bubba, um, who is the CEO and founder of Love Thy Nerd, which we'll talk about a little bit. We got Flat Cap Dapper Pastor, who's a physical church pastor but also doing a lot of experimenting with live streaming on Twitch and getting into that. We have Jade from Jade Live, uh, who is here with us. And if you listen to the podcast for any length of time, you've already heard Jade on the podcast two weeks ago. Uh, actually, wow, yeah, you're wrong. Are you like the number one? It's like you or Tyler Sansom who's been on the most? Probably right. Um, were you the first ever? First street? I was on like I was on like the sixth episode, I think. Number one, number one, I don't know what the first episode six I was on the least played episode. Um, we have Annie Mage from Bay Hope Church, but also uh our director of Automation Ministries at Lux Digital Church. Matt from Love Thy Nerd, uh, who's here with us. And uh we have Zach, who's here from Storyland Studios, um, but also just a big part of planning and the vision behind the Megazord Summit, which uh we've talked about in this season specifically of the Church Digital Podcast because every person who's on for the most part so far, I think, was at that Megazord. And so uh the whole spirit, yeah, well, Flat Cap, I don't know if that's going to be um after this, after this one. Okay, yeah, it's true of the people who've been on thus far uh on this season. So um, but I want to give you guys each a chance just to share a little bit about your heart and why you're on the Church Digital Podcast and why you are um you know, like why you're in the ministry and the thing that you're in. And we'll start with Matt um and Bubba first, and you guys can each share a little bit about LTN. And we'll go around. Yeah, so Love Thy Nerd is I'm amazing, super dope. We really, I agree, yes, the thing that we are doing is good. Pass on to the next person, please. I hate to be the guy who has to go after that. So we were a ministry that exists to be the love of Jesus to nerds in our culture in a billion different ways, but three major ways and avenues that we take are we take a relational approach to outreach and evangelism. Now we believe we have to earn the right to speak truth into someone's life, not speak truth at them. You don't have to earn that right, but to speak it actually into the life and have it see change happen, we think you got to earn that right. And we don't just think that, we've kind of seen that in our context to be true. We also have thoughtful content because we want to see people actually engage with the content that they're consuming both Christianly and critically. And so it's not just enough for you to watch the latest Marvel movie, but we want to have legitimate conversations about that. We're not going to find the Jesus character in every single one of those things because I don't think it's a one-to-one. And when you do that it breaks down immediately. Yeah, certainly not in Star Wars Episode Nine. We're not gonna find it there. Um, we don't connect the Bible to Abomination. Let's Spock. So so we do that. Um, you know, and then I mean we we really have intentional community. Like there's this word that we talk about all the time, Greek word Koinonia, and it is intentional fellowship. And that's really what we try to create as best as we're able to do online, in person, and a million different spaces. We're looking for those shared experiences with people like being nerds and gamers. It's super easy to sit down or sit down online or wherever it is and just be able to play a game, share an experience, and then develop that real conversation, a real relationship with them. And the whole reason we do any of that stuff is so that we can share the heaviest truth, which is that Jesus loves you, and we want you to have the opportunity to come to know Jesus in the same way that we do, knowing that people are not projects. They're absolutely people, and they may never get there, but that doesn't mean that we stop. And so we're able to do that. It's transferable to any area, but we just happen to use nerd culture, being pop culture stuff, you know, video games, board games, comic books, and movies. That's what we do.

Awesome, that's so great. We love it. Yeah, well, you know, one of the things that I work, baby, I really enjoy about Love Thy Nerd and Matt and Bubba is they really do. Every in many ways you can say we do these three things, but in so many other ways, every one of those things is revolving around that shared experience, right? Everything is around shared experience, which shameless plug, uh, if you're listening to this podcast and you should also know that there's a book out by Jeff Reed and Dr. John Harris um called Sharing Jesus Online that talks about the power of shared experiences in our culture and why gaming really, and the book isn't about that, but in our context, why gaming is such a really powerful shared experience. I would say especially for men. Um, I'm not saying that women don't game, but there's something about with men when we have something to do with our hands that allows us to connect in a deep emotional and relational way. LTN does that really well. Yeah, yeah, the statistics actually are that forty-eight percent of women surveyed actually are gamers, so so there's a rising, yeah, that's you know, that is true, that is true. I don't know the numbers, but that is true. There's a lot of female gamers being a man, but yeah, but my point is is that for a lot of women they're able to sit and just like catch up, right, and a lot of us as guys we need something to do with our hands in order to do that. LTN does that in spades really well. And Dr. John and and just book talks literally about that and it's on the website and you can search it on Amazon and it's an e-book and a physical book. So check it out. Flat Cap, tell us a little about what you're doing because physical church pastor exploring in the digital space. Um, and it's kind of like you're not a gamer, so but you're in gaming space right now, so it's kind of new to you. And but you've been in it now for what, like a year? Have you been doing live streaming for uh over a year? I haven't been doing live streaming for, I've been over a year. Yeah, actually, yeah, okay. Um, probably a year and a half. Okay, so I've only actually been on Twitch for two years. Okay. And uh I heard my kids constantly talk about Twitch when they were back in middle school and high school, and they talk about, I'm gonna go watch somebody play video games, and I'm like, why don't you play the video game yourself? Why are you watching someone else? Oh, you're one of those. I was one of those dads. Yes, exactly. And I had no idea why I would ever want to go over there. And then I, I do, I do a thing with the pastors where I bring them together uh so that we are, and it's with Barnabas uh Ministries. They do John seventeen twenty-three groups because we want to have unity, and I really really believe in that. So uh get to get guys across town or gals, and we get together and we're all pastors, we're all on mission, and we're sharing lives together. We're trying to do that. And uh in the middle of COVID uh a guy uh that some of you, I know he's been on the podcast before, uh Pastor Brock VR, knew him in real life. We got together and I listened to him talk about, I'm doing you know VR stuff and I'm I'm doing all this stuff. Like two and a half years he just kept talking about it, and the middle of COVID I resigned from what I was doing and sitting home feeling sorry for myself, which you know, you do when you have that happen. Sure. And I said, I guess I'll go watch him. I got nothing else to do. And boy, the people that were there just loving on me when I showed up. I'm like, I have, I've not experienced this in a church. Why is this happening here? And why have I not known about it? And so he started doing this right away. He kept saying, hey, go follow him. He's going to stream. And I'm like, going, no, I'm not. Why would I ever do this? No. So actually, uh, Alice in the Palace was the first one that followed me. Like he said it, and she instantly followed me. And I'm like, going, who are you? And why would you do that? Jacob's a percentage of that fall. Yeah, it's all a big circle. Yeah. So so hanging out there for a while, I started streaming. And all I, and I started working in churches who are struggling. They may close, they may not close, but they don't know what they're doing. And so that's what I'm doing part-time in real life. So because I have to eat. And then I got addicted to, and I'm gonna say that I got addicted to being online and reading through the Bible. And that's what I do. It's like that isn't like the what, zero point one percent of people who are probably on Twitch? Is I spend two hours reading through the Bible Monday through Friday. Maybe like you and three other people. Yeah, me and three other people. Yeah, I'm not counting those that just put it on autoplay. I mean, they're actually there. Yeah. And uh, yeah, it's just been a blast. And then as I'm doing that and engaging with people, um, I shifted because I actually had been streaming worship services for ten years live before COVID. But our only intent was when you're sick in your home or you're you're going down to Florida, but you know, for the middle of winter, because

Where I'm in Michigan, it's uh, you can still watch and still be connected. And I suddenly realized what I was doing was missing a mission field. And so now I'm trying to figure out—that's why my Expo is like, okay God, you want me to plan a digital church? I don't know what it's supposed to look like, but it is. I have to know the culture and I have to know who the target is. I have to figure all that out. And that's why I'm here at Expo trying to figure all that out.

Oh, so awesome, Jake. I mean, obviously a lot of the podcast community knows you, knows about your story, probably follows your stream. To be honest with you, um, tell it. But tell us a little bit about uh, just a brief synopsis on what you're doing and uh, what you're doing on Twitch.

Yeah, yeah, I play video games. Every video game. Um, just get to hang out and chat with people and hopefully get a real relationship with them. Um, my goal in general is to have fifty percent of the stream be non-Christian. Yeah, like, I mean, cool people should come and follow and like support for sure, but my goal is not really for probably the people listening to this podcast, but it's mostly as an outreach, as like a missionary. So um, but I play games and I pray for people, and through that I get to have a real relationship that hopefully leads to deeper conversations and questions. Um, on Saturdays we go through a chapter of the Bible while playing a video game, and um, usually those take about like three to four hours for us because there's a lot of questions that come in. So that's that's the majority, I would say, of my ministry is mostly just like actually being active in people's lives and trying to remember everybody's names and trying to uh, remember what their prayer requests were and uh, just have a, you know, just be a friend. And through that get to pray for them. And I don't know, you know, what kind of works out. God works it all out in the wash.

So, and you haven't visited Jake live yet? Like, I know Jake's saying we want fifty percent of my chat and things to me, but go lurk even. Because I think the big thing for me is when I'm trying to help people understand what's happening on Twitch, Jake is a really good person to direct people to, even if you're just sitting there and you're not interacting and you're just listening. Because you begin to understand not the entertainer side. Like, if you come to Twitch, you might go watch someone who's fifty, sixty thousand people watching them, and you're like, I don't really like—okay, it's understanding whatever, and I get it. Um, but let's begin. But when you come to Jake's stream, you realize the genuine community and family and connection that happens there. That's very uh, unique to the space. But that Jake leans into really, really well, which is why I encourage people when I talk to them and they're like, what's going on there? I like, go watch Jake's stream. Like, go hang out there for a day and just listen and just see what's happening. Because it's a, it's a really, it's a really perfect example. And he'll be online the whole day.

Yeah, tell us a little about. I mean, you are once again kind of like Flatcap. You are in two worlds. One where you're involved with us at Lux with a fully digital church, but then you're also an online pastor at a very physical church. Um, so tell us a little bit about like your narrative and and your stuff.

Yeah, uh, digital pastor for Bayside Church, been there for three and a half, ish, going on four years uh, now. And was there before COVID started. Kind of was doing the whole thing. They needed—they were streaming to a couple thousand people every single Sunday and didn't know what to do with these people for over ten years. And so they were like, hey, we need a pastor. I was a worship pastor up in Atlanta. And long, you know, long story there, but ended up in Tampa. And that's where Bayside is. And really started kind of getting my feet uh, under the desk. And then COVID happened, and then the entire world changed in terms of streaming. And it was kind of a boon that I was there at the time. And so I kind of got to see a lot of the transformation with a lot of churches. Was kind of consulting and helping a lot of smaller to mid-sized churches get their feet up or get their, you know, their platforms up during COVID. And what I found was that they were missing the engagement piece. A lot. They were missing the actual engagement. That weird kind of buzzword that we all use. But they were missing that. It was like all the questions were focused on, how, what cameras do I need? What microphones do I need? It's like, no, no, you're missing the point. You need to have the relationship side. Um, and so I kind of actually started consulting with a company called Ultra Live. Go use Ultra Live. We actually have a number of our subscribers that um, watch and listen to this podcast. So thank you everybody. Keep that up. We really like that. Ultra Live's been growing. But started consulting with them, got introduced to Mark. Uh, was asked to go interview Mark. Actually, you're gonna have to go—maybe two years ago?

Yeah, yeah, something like that. Um, and I had kind of already been stalking Lux a little bit on Twitch. And uh, so interviewed him, super loved it. I was doing my own podcast at the time, one of my own podcasts, interviewed Mark for that as well. And at that point I was like, hey, dude, I want to help out. Um, and so kind of just started there and had never met you uh, really loved the engagement piece that Lux was doing because there was something way different there. And we can talk about that later. But there's something way different happening with everybody here in a digital capacity versus what's happening in physical space. And I want to bring that to the physical space because, man, people need that. They they need to be able to understand that the one hundred sixty-seven hours that you're not in church, there's a way to talk to people who actually care. Uh, and then lo and behold, Mark offered me. We met here at Expo last year for the first time physically, got to hug his neck. And uh, we ended up—I ended up—he offered me a job eight months ago, ish. Let's see, yeah, yeah, July. Yeah, whatever you're saying. You didn't—hey, thanks. Working with Lux. Um, and actually I'm also helping with DCN and uh, doing their directing of resources and all sorts of stuff. So there's just there's a whole lot there. But but the biggest piece, kind of like Flatcap is alluding to, is getting the people in the physical space to understand that there are people that are constantly online and constantly wanting to communicate with them.

Well, Zach, tell us a little about because you work for Storyland, Plain Joe. I can't remember which brand is the most important one this week. Um, that you guys are unchangeable, right? Um, they kind of are. It's it's so interesting to me because they are a branding company, but I'm never sure which brand they are. It's like it's the—that's that's a—but it works. It works. So tell us a little about yourself uh, Zach uh, here on the DCM podcast and then uh, maybe a little bit about what Plain Joe and and Storyland do, what you guys are about.

Yeah, um, and also maybe a little bit of your your part in Megazord real quick.

Yeah, um, so I work for Storyline Studios within that. Plain Joe is a Storyline Studio. And we focus on all the cause-related. So it's all the same people, but we have a cause-related focus. Um, virtually everyone in the studio um, is Christian and just has a passion for that world. But we also serve themed entertainment clients like Disney and Universal um, and other clients internationally. So we're able to take that experience and apply it to the church. But the entertainment clients tend to have um, a little bit of an allergic reaction to if they go on your website and they see that you designed a church and they say, well, that's not the same thing. Also, we don't like the church. Um, so we have two front doors. We say, hey, church, Plain Joe is your studio, and we will serve you well. And see the entertainment clients, Storyline is your studio, and don't worry about Plain Joe. Um, in construction. And we just as a whole, the studio's whole idea is um, storytelling worthy of the story. And we'd say the story—has the—the church has the best story ever told. And we want to tell that story well. And the church historically has done at least a pretty good job of doing that with words. But we have spaces and websites and culture and community communication strategies um, that are speaking and often speaking louder than our words. And we don't have—not everyone has a skill set or the ability to manage that as well. So we get to come in and help tell that story well. Um, so making sure that whatever story you're trying to tell is a church, your unique way that you're communicating the gospel, um, that you're doing that consistently on your website and your brand and your culture and your spaces. And we often end up working with very innovative churches, very innovative non-profits. Um, it's just the nature of what we do. And the beauty of that is I am a card-carrying nerd. I love Marvel and video games, and that's just always been a part of my DNA. And so as I get to start working in this space, I discover there's this whole community of people who are on the bleeding edge of church—big C church—stuff trying to serve our nerdy neighbors as well. And I'm sitting there thinking, man, all of my closest friends are people who need this ministry. They're nerds who hang out every Friday night playing D&D, and that's where they've found a community. They had broken homes or they just had tough childhoods, and they've found the best community around the D&D table and not in the church. And I love these guys, and I'm like, how do I serve these guys well? And I'm like, oh, it's these. I need these ministries to succeed so that my friends can be saved. And so I'm like, man, if I can use any of the stuff that I'm learning through and applying and all the experience I'm getting in doing work for the church and helping clients tell their stories well and help to do that in this space, um, that's just the biggest one I could ask for.

And so yeah, we had the opportunity last year to uh, I uh, the first time I met Mark, I said, hey, what do you think about if we tried to raise like a couple tens of thousands of dollars and apply a bunch of people into a city and like hang out and just like try to be fuel in the engine of all these nerd culture ministries? And he was like, yeah, that seems like a good idea, person I just met. Yeah, what's your name again? And like two weeks later, he was like, he was like, we've got money. Let's do it. And so we did. And uh, it was a really successful event that we did last year that was just helping to pour gas on that fire. Um, and propel and hopefully just kind of renew the spirit of a lot of these people that are doing that kind of ministry. And it was great, and we loved it. And now we're trying to figure out what does that look like moving forward? And that's we're talking about how do we launch networks of people that are doing this ministry and how do we uh, do another event in Texas this year um, in Marble Falls that will be just helping the church understand what is it, what is this, how can you guys get involved? And so it's been uh, it's just been a blessing to be able to do my day job and then also volunteer and just be part of Mother Nerd and part of Lux and be in Jake's community and just be hanging out with everyone kind of everywhere, man. Really, it's a little scary.

Yeah, not while I'm working though. Never.

Well, yeah, yeah, no, it's never happened. Never. Never happened. Only in the evenings.

I mean, obviously we have a really great group of guys. I mean, there are gals in the space, but at the moment guys around around the mic who are really in like the bleeding edge and bleeding edge innovation of not just reaching gamers, which is what we've been talking about in this season a lot, is like—

Esports and video games and like a lot of people understand that but it but it is so much larger than that and the scope is so much larger than that because because gamers are not singularly like one thing right they're multifaceted and so many people who are gamers are also card carrying nerds in multiple other ways right so they don't just play video games they're also a major board game enthusiasts and lovers you know they don't just play video games they also love anime and they also love Japanese culture like like Jade does right and they also are spiritually beings that spiritual beings that need to be fed who are interested in the Bible and looking for spiritual journey like Flatcap and Lux and all of us serve them in that capacity and CPAs and artists and they're in your communities doing all this kind of stuff anyway. Yeah, normal human beings. Yeah, yeah. You just what a lot, well many like and you just don't realize that the engineer that comes to your church on the weekends also played Dungeons and Dragons a Saturday night before and that's why it's usually tired when it gets there on Sunday mornings. On Friday afternoon who's your, yeah your construction manager is also playing World of Warcraft tomorrow night and like yep. Yeah I usually like I go to church a lot of times I like fly the nerd flag if you guys I'm sure we all do that right you put like I put on my Dungeon Dragon shirt yeah when I show up to a new church and just see which people we silently make the eye contact from across the room and it's like uh we get each other like hey yeah it's on camera who changed it okay cool cool so here's what I love to dive into a little bit because we're all at Expo we have all except for Jade unfortunately because it's like if you get delayed and canceled and he got here habitual he's an Xbox and he made it to the pre-con stuff well yeah look I'm reaching right through him yeah we have a bunch we have a bunch of clips from Jade's previous episodes we're just inserting it random into this one um she had GPT's getting crazy yeah so just like open forum what is the things that you've seen from even pre-con Expo that has just been really helpful eye-opening encouraging to you because I want to see more people who listen to this who are on the bleeding edge get to this event for a whole bunch of reasons but I'd love to hear some of the reasons why it's been helpful or encouraging challenging to you.

Yeah I mean so for me we're actually just talking about this at lunch today it's it's really interesting to hear people in the room that came looking for something and the thing that they actually got wasn't it wasn't necessarily different it wasn't wrong it was just more. Well they were looking for like specific tech answers yeah how do I stream people how do I do this their vision was about this this wide and it's like no no no but that off to the side we'll figure that out later that's a YouTube video how do you how do you relationally engage people in the spaces where you find them and so it was good to hear that because I mean honestly for us or for being real sometimes we can get caught in in the weeds a bit right like we can't can't see the you know the forest for the trees kind of a deal and so it's one of those one of those deals where maybe we're just too close to it um that we forget that hey you know this thing that we actually did XYZ years ago that's where they're starting and so you know we're light years ahead of that but how do we back that up in in order to train and multiply and do all this stuff how do we come a couple of parsecs back see what I did there I did yeah so how do we how do we come into that space and be like hey in order for you to get off the ground because you're going to reach people I don't reach how do we do that and so it would literally going back to the pre-conference stuff it was eye-opening in ear opening to hear people go hey I loved it so what now yeah how do we do that and it's like I feel like we've been doing this for a while now like it just so you sometimes forget like where you started from it sounds stupid like just like how hard it was it because like at the beginning get going yeah but and then you you think about it you're like no that was yeah okay tremendously difficult how long ago I mean because we're I mean like put numbers on it for us Clan but probably closer to 12 15 years ago yeah per game yeah it's been a long while something yep which if you anything you've done that's like all of school oh yeah like elementary school yeah be a kindergartner so like you're you're up here talking like let's talk about like maybe at like a tenth grade level like kindergarten level first coloring such a long yeah so it seems obvious there is an encouragement to come from all of that though uh you had said that somebody had made the comment trick it from firehouse that's what it felt like right but then we were talking about it at lunch and the other thing that came out of it was everybody's doing things a different way like there's no yeah there is no cut and try you know and again there's not a slam on any physical church it's me being a physics church pastor three songs in a message ain't gonna cut it in the online space it's just not going to and so the encouragement is God has made all of us in different spaces God has given us all different communities and different skills and talents and abilities if we can figure out a way to get into those into those little communities those little pockets Jeff is big on I don't want to make a church of ten thousand I want to make 100 churches of or whatever 100 or a thousand churches to ten or something dude 150 churches insert logarithmic number here but but you see what I'm saying so we we like if I was to set up something digital it's not going to be the same as Zach or the same as Flatcap it's going to be totally different and that's cool everybody in that room in the pre-conference room is going to do their own thing and influence 50 people yeah well did piggyback back on that on that when you think about planting a church in the physical space you look around at all the churches and you're gonna that's the model I'm trying to come that's the demo I need right that's the one and oh they did it over there let's go do what they did but they all innovated and when we go to copy it we miss some of the stuff that they were doing and I hopefully those who are there listening good you did it this way you did it that way you're doing something else yeah what are you what are you even doing I don't understand what you're doing is yeah that's okay yeah not everyone is going to run into the Ethiopian eunuch and say oh you're reading let me tell you what you were reading and then instantly bewitched the way to go somewhere else and never see the guy again sure in many ways that's one of the beautiful things about what Expo is is that it's innovation but it's not just here it's innovation in every sphere right like in this particular podcast we have people who are gaming ministry people but even in our room it was digital ministry people and there was another five or six approaches that were talked about in just in pre-con that's before we get the metaverse track and that's before we're even touching so the really cool thing is in the space of innovation when there's not a pre-made map like when there's not a plan that shows this is how you do it and this is the standard way to do it everyone comes through the problem and they all say let's we all come from unique positions and with unique experiences that enable us to do it in a unique way and that has been really a beautiful and encouraging thing for me here to expose like so many of us caring for the same group of people caring for the same gospel mission same commission and we're taking beautifully unique approaches to that I feel like in some ways like it's it's almost less pressure when you think about it that way like you kind of put the standard like I have to do it this certain way when it's not going to succeed but like because we each have our own unique way of doing it our own unique people that we're trying to reach I know it's like we're gaming but there's you know the gamut there like it's a lot it's less pressure like how best can I reach the people in this area yeah but it doesn't feel like less pressure when cultural norms have said like bigger you know butts and budget proof I think you know Nicholson noses the more the more noses I have the more nickels I'm making or even just how do we know it's a church or how do we know it's ministry or how do we know it's discipleship how do we how do we know how do we know right well we can tell you stories yeah and the church isn't used to just saying tell me a story they they want hard numbers to look at and I just don't think that's the way things are anymore what was what was interesting also was the number of people that are here that are not from North America that's true I mean that was fascinating or I mean or that art history in North America yeah yeah so I just think one of the things that a little being being outside the fishbowl is is really encouraging just in this all of it as I listened to the German history is people that are doing Facebook and they're ministering people all over the world the people that are using Twitch they're using WhatsApp and it's what I think is beautiful about it is this willingness to say there's people who would rather using stealing your words would rather gamble with the gates of Hell than ever darken the doors of a church and it's this refusal to say I'm not going to give up on that person just because they're never going to come to church and so it's great we need the churches there but the people that are never going to come we need to just go to them and love them well and by whatever means necessary oh so that's the thing right and it's beautiful it's so encouraging to me I mean we're talking about hey like each individual ministry or person or whatever having their own uh you know approach it's you know we talk about it as this bespoke approach right like this yeah uncrafted thing that we we use terminology that people are people they're not projects everybody's heard that we go a step further and say pixels are people and meeple are people just kind of contextualize like what it is in space people is a piece in a game board by the way hold on it's a person I'm just assuming people I'm assuming they're rewinding and trying to hear what the word meeple is what I love about like you go into any of the streams for anyone in this room and I think people who aren't used to those environments they'd go in and they'd hear us like JB it's talking about someone like oh hey Sam bear I'm glad you're here that's silly why are you talking about what you need to know the person's actual name yeah and it's like no that person that name is just as valid and you treat it with full sincerity and you respect them and you realize there's a person behind that name there's a person behind that message and I was just talking the impact of it is crazy wow um yeah and if you if you legit like on on his his Expo badge that's what you wrote yeah because we were having a conversation that you met somebody and I'm going to butcher the story for the sake of the podcast you you met somebody and they refused to call you by that and they immediately in that moment broke the connection yeah well they really put a barrier before it started and that's what we do at targets we put barriers between us and people were trying to reach the gospel so so I had that on my zoom so it was a zoom meeting and we were going around and introducing and talking and I said oh why don't you go next and he said well I'm not going

To say your name and he wouldn't even say it. Flat cap. Curse words? No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. He knew what it was. He would not acknowledge that I wanted to be recognized by that because I'm in the digital space. Yeah, yeah. And I prefer to go by that when I'm in the digital space. If I'm not in the digital space, you guys know me off. You know my name. That's great. That's fine. I don't care. It's redacted. It's yes, that was my blurring. Yeah. But the other thing is people butcher that, so it's a whole lot easier, sure, to just say this is who I am and then walk away from a conference like this and go, "Hey, what's that guy's name? I don't remember. What was his name? What was it? Oh yeah, he was wearing a hat."

But when people come into the digital, the digital space, um, even if it's physically to learn about digital space with pre-conference and stuff like that, and even the digital track that PCN's doing, it's one of those deals where you get to—this is their first step in. All they do is church online. We've only streamed our church service. Since like, man, that's just that barely counts as what we're talking about. It doesn't not count. Let's not discredit it, but it barely counts. And once we get over the threshold of that, you're going to meet people that aren't Miss Opal, right? You're going to meet Flat Cap Dapper Pastor and you know, Xenoblade29 and like all these people. Yeah, right. Yeah, 28 was these 29. I really means. But you're going to meet these people that are they have real human experiences. And so I think that that's where like, we don't—we talk about 15 years in this ministry. Yeah. We don't have it figured out. Pastors who have been on the mission field or wherever for that long and longer, they're like, "We're still learning that culture. We're still understanding how that works and what makes them tick." Um, and so I think it's good for us to come in and just share the things that we know without being the smartest people in the room and not to make them do what you're doing, but just to help people blow open all those categories and say, "This is the way that we're, this is the wall that we chose to break down to get to that person over there that was never going to be able to come in."

Oh yeah. And but the wall you break down is probably going to be completely different. Yours might be the Jiu Jitsu Ministry. Yeah, I don't know. But let us help you. Let's, let's put a pin in that because we've said Jiu Jitsu Ministry twice and they have no clue. So with the quick is we walked up here too. We walked up here too. Yeah, we're gonna, yeah, let's uh, let's take a tour. Uh, we're in an upstairs area, uh, in one of the kids areas, and there's a giant room out there. We walked into scout out the studio space this morning, and they were legit having a Jiu Jitsu Ministry talk through, and it was in Jiu Jitsu. Yeah, Jesus and kung fu or whatever. The guy that was talking had a shirt on that said "Jesus and Violence." Yeah, made pictures up on the screen was like, "This is so cool. How?" And my first thought was, "I have a friend who would love this." Yeah, dude, it was awesome. Is your friend Conor McGregor? It is. Graphics. I want to talk about what we're just genuinely excited about in what we see coming in this next season because we do have a lot of people who's your life is tied up into this thing, right? Many of our lives are tied up to this until now, right? We're living and breathing it daily, whether we're doing it full time or part-time. Um, I think that in the end of the day, one of the things that I think we've all experienced was it's the innovation, but it's also just people trying to embolden the hearts of folks who've come to Expo to say, "Love people that aren't loved. Find ways to get to people that aren't reached." Like, we, if we're not telling you what to do, we're asking you to ignite your heart for people whom Jesus loves and no one is trying to get to. And that's just what I've seen in everything, right? And that's really cool. But let's talk a little bit about our area. What really ignites our hearts? And it's for, you know, not just digital industry and digital episode, but also for people that's out of this nerd and gaming culture. What are we genuinely excited about seeing? Because I I really think that we're coming towards the precipice of a lot of very exciting things in terms of the church looking to game culture and looking to nerd culture and acknowledging not only acknowledging its existence but also not seeing it as a thing to be outcasted and ostracized, but to engaged with and to carefully. 3.2 billion people in the world are gamers. Like, it's their gamers. Like, that's most people, probably in your church. Yeah, roughly a billion more people than there are Christians on the planet, just for the record. That's the 2020 stats. Yeah, we're a little bit behind on this. Yeah, all doubled in 2020, right? During the blip. Yeah.

I mean, outside of actual games are coming out, like the thing that I'm, I that I get the most excited about is that aha moment, like when people get it, when you see it click. And honestly, like if anybody's like wondering, "Man, how do I convey this stuff? I don't, I don't know the lingo," we'll just give you the websites for the stats. Like stats speak to hear these things about 3.2 billion gamers and 48 are women, and you know, here's the people that actually prefer to play games that are not shooters. It's a higher than people that do play because that's like most gamers are like mid-30s. Yeah, exactly. 35 years old is the average age for a gamer these days. Um, I guess as of 2020.

So like we have uh like all these stats and churches get that. They understand that because they track things like baptisms and givers and stuff like that, and that's how they communicate so internally and externally with you know associations and conventions and stuff like that. So being able to just get out there and say, "Hey, um, the numbers are saying that the people are actually in your congregation already. They just don't feel comfortable because at best it's marginalized and at worst it's demonized. You tell them or they have heard that they're going to hell for what they like." And so once you're able to to turn that, I was able to sit down to about 15 pastors last week and watch them go, "What? Hmm? No way. Yes. Surprise." Yeah, literally had a pastor that was sitting right there, and he was telling me, "My son is meeting people um for a rehearsal dinner for a wedding for a Destiny 2 raiding party." Awesome. And I'm like, I was like, "That's really cool." I was in Florida because that's the story of also kind of normal. Yeah. But for him, he's like, "I didn't even know." And so he shared that with the other pastors, and they're like, "How in the world?" I'm like, "Because this creates community. But we have to understand." And once they get it, the aha moment is then, "Hey, Pastor, now, now I need you to go start a gaming ministry." It's, "Man, no, no, no. Let me let me talk to my buds, and we'll figure out a way to equip and empower and encourage your people who are in the space already to be sourced and activated." Yeah.

There's something interesting with that too. A lot of so being in the physical space, you get a lot of pastors that are like, uh, doing a flat cap set like that's working. Let's go copy it. Yeah. And it's like it goes back to the thing that I'm very excited about is God, I think, is releasing his Spirit onto all different smaller communities. Like I feel like the the entire church organization of like, "Hey, we're going to be mega churches. We're going to do this whole thing," is starting to splinter more and more and more because people are realizing that they can niche down and find community. And there's that word again: community engagement. Sure. Uh, in places that get them, that that you know can identify with them quicker, and you can be on a level playing field. I could say words like asynchronous and you know things like that, and you guys immediately know what I'm talking about. But if I talk about that to somebody else, they go, "Literally," like last night at dinner, like, "Wait, wait, what do you mean by that?" And so I'm having to explain it, which is fine. That that's all good. But our job then is believers, and our job as leaders and ministry leaders is to be in those pockets of people. Yeah. But to minister into those pockets of people and not to throw a Bible at them and not to be heavy-handed and not to do it, but to love them, to support them, to allow them to vent their frustrations and their angers and their regrets and all those other things, and then to show them that Jesus has superseded all of that. Yeah.

In our small pockets, this is the first year I've been exposed three to three years plus. I did one in like Tennessee a couple years ago or last year or something. This is the first time I felt that this is the first time I felt like things were starting to slowly kind of coagulate in different areas, and that is very cool. Like, that's something I haven't seen before. I think one of the things that I get most excited about is the combination of both what's happening in this space and the physical church, right? Because when pastors get those aha moments, what God has already done is paved to prepare the road, right? It would be like a pastor coming and saying to church, "Listen, church family, I really feel like God has just opened my eyes. So there's a mission field in Iraq." And then there's two dozen people who raise their hand like, "Hey, we speak Urdu," and he's like, "I had no idea we had our new speakers here. Like, we're prepared and ready to go to Iraq." And it's like there's a whole world out there that most pastors don't know about. It's either gaming community and in digital space, and they're going to be able to like get to their church and be like, "I don't know how we're supposed to do this, but I feel like we're supposed to go into this world and reach people." And there's two dozen people who are in their church, and they're saying, "Uh, my language that I speak and the gifts and the abilities that I have have gone completely unused because I had no clue how to plug them into the church." And I I will literally be lit on fire for this opportunity. Like, light me up. I'm ready to go. Can I meet my love for Christ and meet it with my passions that have been given in my life? And you're actually going to recognize them as god-given passions instead of chastising them as a waste of time? Yeah. And to see that happen, it doesn't just make me excited for churches, guys. It makes me excited for my nerd brothers and sisters who are sitting in congregations and feel like this whole other portion of their life has no place inside their faith, which just isn't true. And I I love that. Gets me very also got driven out of congregations because they were feeling ostracized. Oh yeah. Like so many people with Lux, they got driven out because they played D&D or because they played video games, and it was just like, "Yeah, you don't really have a place in our church," and also, "You make us terribly uncomfortable." Yeah, yeah, exactly.

What's really interesting is when I was, when I was talking with us, when I was talking about those pastors, uh, they were, we D&D came up because it just always does, right? It's like it's a really easy hoplin issue. And they were like, "Oh man, I can't believe like why do people think that this is so bad?" Like they were saying that to me, and I was like, "Do you know what the number one hindrance is from like a D&D group starting at your church?" And they're like, "What is it?" And I was like, "It's you guys. And it's not because you guys don't want it. It's the stigma that's on everything. So perception is reality. And if you want something to become different, you have to change culture. And sometimes that means a little bit of representation goes a long way, right? And so if you play D&D, don't hide it. A lot of us we're

Closet nerds for a very long time in our church communities because we felt like we would be ostracized or laughed at or whatever because that's how high school was or whatever, you know. But to be able to know now that, man, again, statistics are just blowing my mind that the top, out of the top ten movies of all time grossing, eight of them are nerd movies, nerd culture movies. And you would argue some of you would argue that nine of them are no because Lion King's on the list. Yes. Um, I guess if you cry hard enough it'll work. But remember, you know, I mean, it's literally the only two that I would say that are in that top ten that are not like nerdy movies is Titanic and Lion King. Everything else is either a Marvel movie or a dream, science, sci-fi, Star Wars stuff like that. Yeah. And I'll follow that up. I know we have to close up the podcast here. I think all of us are excited about the future because we see things lining up. And if you're listening to the show, you'll hear Jeff and I both say this throughout the show: if you're, hey, keep listening and reach out to us in the Digital Church Network. If you're like, my heart's being moved towards this and I do have people in my church and I want to see us start doing this, like reach out. Flat Cap Dapper Pastor is doing stuff in the network right now to help connect you to people and help you begin and start this journey. Like, get plugged into that. Be like, reach out to some of the people that are in the space that you're going to hear throughout the course of the season, right? But like, even on this show, like reach out to J8, reach out to Love Thy Nerd and say, listen, we don't know exactly what you're doing and but we know it's important. We don't know how to do it but we know it's important. How can we help? And some of that might be help being like, hey, we actually have ways that you can literally serve and help. And some of it might be like you'll be able to get behind some of these ministries financially because one of the biggest obstacles that we're learning about in nerd culture ministry and gamer ministry is that it's just under-resourced. It's not that it's not valid. It's not that it's not powerful and it's not that it's not needed. It's pioneers are frequently under-resourced, right? We get like, we get our Conestoga wagon, we fill it with half the supplies that we need and we head to the gold rush to try to ford the river. Yeah, it falls over. Yeah, yeah. And if you've played Oregon Trail, you know that a lot of us die of dysentery. And so, uh, yes, we would love to not do that. And so like, would you come alongside of some of this group and and just partner with us, pray for us? Um, let us consult with you if you're like, I don't know how to do this well. Just any of us, I think, would gladly take a phone call and say, let us do, yeah, give you advice on how to do this in your church. Well, and also listen to your crazy thought. Listen to your crazy thought because church in a bar probably started like a crazy thought. Yeah, I was just crushing it. Yeah, yeah. Barbecue church started as a crazy idea. I love barbecue but I can't do that for, well, okay. I also, back in the day before I went to seminary when I was in college, I loved doing drama and I thought, I'm never gonna do that for a living. I'm not good looking enough and Danny DeVito already has the market on short stocky guys, so I'm out. And then, and then my church said, hey, we want to do drama ministry. We need someone to do that. I went, you mean that thing I love doing and I could do that for Jesus? Just on that, that's like my favorite verse, Ephesians 2:10, where his workmanship created in Christ, she's a stupid worksheet prepared in advance. Yes, and prepared in advance. I think a lot of times is what gets missed is that like the thing that you're probably called to do is probably not something that's super wildly different, like, oh, let's go to Africa and just like have no resources but you know we're gonna like drink off the water in the river and like whatever. It's like more likely, yeah, just stay strong with you. Yeah, more likely probably that thing that like you're saying that was like, I really want to do this thing and I feel called to do it, like it's something that is something really deep and personal to me but I just don't think I can do it because of failures or whatever. That thing is. And I, I think that a lot of the times that's the, and that's why there's so many people that are so ready for this kind of a ministry because they're like, this is the people that I already feel called to, is the people that I that are like my people. And to see that like, I felt like I was under-appreciated and under, um, you know, misrepresented really in the church. And then to now be that and then to see other people not feeling that because you're providing it for them. Yeah, like it just feels so good. And and you were saying earlier about like people not, you know, recognizing your name and stuff and was thinking about like Alice is the first one. Allison. Oh yeah, Alice in the Palace, right? And it's like, what's this name? But when I've, yeah, when you met her it was Future Queen of Hell. Yes. And so when we talk about like, I had to say like, hey, how's it going, Queen, you know, like I can't say most of the other things in here, you know. You know, I miss Hell like, uh, so yeah, it's me, you know. Yes. And so it is like, at the beginning I even thought like, yeah, this person's probably a troll, like probably here cause trouble. And we talked about that in some of the other things, you know. It's like, it's just a, and I would go even further and say accepting people that don't have a camera in VR, like this person's a bowl of ramen. Like, let's have a good conversation about God to a bowl of ramen. Like, and nutritious. It's just, it's a very different. I think people are not, they're in such a like, they're not seeing them as like, I don't think digital really accounts. Oh boy, it could be really hard for you when you realize that the bowl of ramen is the person that I'm talking about. I was like, that conversation was what that person needed. And we just know there's a person behind the avatar and that that person has a soul. Yeah. Or even, even like last week I had someone from Australia that was in my chat and then like halfway through the conversation and they've been typing kind of fuzzy all the whole conversation goes, hey, confession time, I'm drunk, right? All right, great. That's okay. Glad you're here. Glad you were here and not somewhere else doing something else. You're welcome to stay. And they came back the rest of the week. Yeah, that's so cool. They show up to church drunk. You got a problem. Yeah. And you got people swarming them to do whatever they need to. And there's no ministry church, man. Like, it's, yeah, there's a long time that every team meeting one of my team members showed up without a shirt on. Uh, and that was, it was a dude. It was like a big, big dude. And I love him. I love, I love salty to death. Yeah, yeah. Not physical church. It was at Lux. But I was like, I don't live in Pittsburgh. I was like, yeah, this dude, this dude's gonna have a hard time serving on a team of physical church probably. Like he might have a hard time fitting in. Uh, but you know, there's been people who found homes in our communities and they come to us. I say all the time, people come to us without age, gender, name, or disability, right? They come to us and we get to learn who they are based off the ways they interact with us. And we get to learn to love them before you know you see them walking across the parking lot and you make judgments about them before they ever enter your door. And there's a lot of people that never feel welcome in our buildings because before, before they got through the front doors of the church, we've made judgments about them. And that just doesn't happen in the digital space in the same way. We actually get the opportunity to interact with people in a really powerful way. And there's been lots of people that I was just surprised afterwards. It's like, oh, you're a dude. Like, I actually, yeah, I actually didn't know that, right? Like, and that's okay. Like, it hasn't changed the way I've cared about you or anything like that. Now we're building a deeper relationship. I didn't know your name. And some people, it's taken six months for them to share their real name with us. And there are so many people in my church now who I know their real name, right? And I don't use it, right? It's not that I don't know it. I remember I messaged my Discord admin once and I sent him a DM by his real name and he said, oh man, I'm in trouble, aren't I? Laughs. I was like, nah, man, sorry. Uh, yeah, because they just, we just are so very much so used to the fact that we are accepted by screen names that we use, by the identities that we have inside of the space. And at the same time, digital space so alarmingly more honest, transparent, and open than what I've had being able to see people's physical visages and know their face in the clothes that they had on in physical space. It's really cool. I mean, a hundred percent of the time. And it's, it is not a percent lower, a hundred percent of the time. If you put the time, the energy, and the effort into the relationship, there is that relational payoff at the end. Yeah. And the relational payoff is not acceptance in Jesus. The relational payoff is them being vulnerable and opening up because they're not accepted in other spaces of their life but they have found a space with you who is able to shatter preconceived notions, let alone change them, that they have with what the church is because of what they see in the media. And so those moments of vulnerability and intimacy is what relationship is born out of. The moment we fake it, we lose it. And I, I think with part of what's beautiful about it is like, I know when you guys talk about nerds, you try to help open that category over people. Yeah. And I don't know if you'd use this language, but part of it is this idea that like almost everyone has, I would maybe everyone has something that like when they start talking about it, you just see their eyes. Oh yeah, oh yeah. And just as a person, they just get more animated. And sometimes that person starts to talk about that and immediately they notice everyone else's eyes go dim, right? And they're like, that's how you know, let me dial out, back in, right? And so when someone gets to have that moment where someone says, what do you think about this? And their eyes light up at this. You want to talk about that? And like, go for it. I would love nothing more. All of a sudden that person is like, sweet. And so you start there. You start with a lights that person's eyes up and you develop an authentic interest in it if you know you have the same interest, right? We're both gamers. Let's get into that. Or I wouldn't, just tell me about it. I want to learn. I have authentic interests. Well, I mean, how often do you hear somebody or see somebody, right, be like, oh, you were in a cowboy jersey? Yeah, I always fans. Yes, that happens all the time. It's a willingness to start. It's been, it's been. And then lead into, if you start there, it's way easier to then lead into, let me, I should show you what some of the things I'm passionate about as well, rather than, I could not care less about the things that sparked your interests. On the flight here, there was um a little kid who is four going on five today. It's his birthday. Um, but he was um his his mom was there and she was she was freaking out about all this different stuff but she she had him uh like on the iPad for a while but then he put the iPad away and he wasn't happy about it and she was like, it's all this stuff, but she just kept kind of being like dismissive of a bunch of stuff. Yeah. And I just uh I I just like kind of looked over whatever and I was just like, what's your favorite Minecraft block or whatever? Because I saw he was on Minecraft. And that like...

Eyes light up thing, it was just like a whole different, like, like, and she's like, "Here, she, yeah, like," and she said, like, "A purple one," and I was like, "Oh, obsidian," and, and yeah, but she dump it down for you. Yeah, but her adults, yeah, actually I don't know, he might not even know, but he was like, "Yeah, yeah, that one," and the mom was like, "That's an actual thing," like, like her whole world was just like, like, "Wait, you're, you know what my kid's saying?" She was like, "My kid is like so much, like it's really hard talk to him or whatever," but like, and she, she was like, "Hey, I gotta go to the bathroom, can you watch my kid for a bit?" Absolutely, sure. And so we did, yeah, we were talking, and eventually the kid asked, "Can I switch you seats so I can sit next to him?" And she would try to talk to him, and he'd be like, "No, I need to ask him a question real quick, like, like, stop trying to talk to me, mom," like, it's just like, yeah, immediately he asked me where I was going to be because he's going to be at Disney World, and he was like, "Well, when I see you again, I'll tell you what the sound is because I don't know yet." And so the mom was like, "Can I take his, can I take your phone number so I can just like text you? I literally don't know how to do this, but you're the only person that's ever talked to my kid." She's gonna put yours. I was thinking to myself, like, "Man, you know, before this is happening, I was talking to the mom, I was thinking, like, there's just, I don't see any way that I can have a religious conversation right now with just the conversation we're having." Oh, sure. Like, it got to one point where she's like, "I'm very Catholic," but she was like, "And I can't see any other way than that," and like, she, I just, there was lots of things. What's your favorite Minecraft? Right, yeah, but, but you know this because I, I was able to speak to her kid. It was, he was asking me all these questions about why I was here and what was I doing. I have to step in because we're out of time for the church digital podcast today. Yeah, this is ever stop the podcast that never stops. So thank you guys so much for listening to the Church Digital Podcast or watching. We really appreciate it. Thank you guys, everybody for being on. So from Mark, from Lux Digital Church, from, um, all of us from LTN, from Storyland, from Jate Live, from Flat Cap Dad for Pastor, from, uh, Bay Hope, thank you so much guys for tuning in and listening this week, and be sure to come back and listen to the next episode of the Church Digital Podcast.