EP275 - Jay Kranda & Getting Your Church to Experiment

Welcome to the Church Digital podcast. Through this podcast we'll talk about the technological innovations within the church, but more than tech for itself, we'll address deeper questions. Is disciple making possible digitally? How should we approach the digital mission field? Can a biblically grounded church operate in digital space? And where does the metaverse fit into all this? Whether you're a big or small church, an established church or a startup church plant, Church Digital's goal is to help churches like yours learn to be a multiplying church digitally and physically. Our heart is that churches like yours would discover a newfound focus on disciple making that will revolutionize your church. And now here's your host, Jeff Reed.

Hey everybody, welcome to the Church Digital podcast. Jeff Reed here, founder of Church Digital and Digital Church Network. You got episode 275. We got Jake Randa coming up right around the corner. Excited about this. Anytime we get Jake Randa on, well, we'll get into that. Let's hear it. A little bit. It's gonna be good. Some good stuff.

Hey, um, we've got a learning community coming up with Leadership Network. We've been talking about it all of this season. We've been talking about the digital learning community, a metaverse virtual learning community, getting exposed to the idea of digital communities and virtual reality communities and what churches look like in that space. Even talking about doing digital and metaverse mission trips, getting your people exposed to some new concepts, some new ideas in digital and virtual reality ministry. So if you're interested in those learning communities, check out leadnet.org/DLC for the digital one, or leadnet.org/MLC metaverse learning community for that one as well. Put links in the show notes. We've talked about those in past episodes, so check it out.

And we're gonna segue right here in with Jake Randa. As we're talking about, you know, digital learning communities and metaverse learning communities and seeing things differently, we're going to be hanging out with Jake. Digital pastor, online pastor, online campus pastor. What is your actual title, Jake?

Online community pastor for Saddleback Church.

That changed. It was not online community before, was it?

Um, it changed like a couple years ago, but it has changed many times. But yes.

I was about to say you've kind of adapted along the way. One of the probably one of the OGs of online ministry, Jake Randa. And he's been on the podcast quite a few times. And if you've ever heard the podcast before with Jake, who lives in southern California, Los Angeles specifically, a Lakers fan, and you've ever listened to even some of the older podcasts with Ray Arbus and I, who are, you know, more Miami Heat fans, you've heard some maybe some conversations going back and forth about the greatness of the Lakers, how, you know, LeBron left Miami to go to a greater LA, that things are going to be awesome, and LeBron's the greatest there. And um, you know, I just, I mean, we got a title so I don't, are you setting up for the title?

So yes, yes. But I'm just curious because, you know, the Miami Heat, they're taking it to the Celtics right now when we're doing this recording. The podcast will play later, yeah. We'll probably be in the finals when this airs. And um, we're the Lakers again. I forget what what's going on.

Hey, Western Conference Finals. We were terrible at the trade deadline. Hey, I'll take it all day. We were great. It was great. But yeah, no, I'm a Heat fan. I mean, the Heat are amazing. They're really, Jimmy Buckets is the man. I was messaging with Ray about it. He messaged me. He said, uh, he said something about something I posted on Instagram. He said, hey, Jake, you're killing it like in this thing in ministry. And I replied just like the Nuggets killed the Lakers. I sent back to them this week. So it's just like the Nuggets killed the Lakers. It's beautiful.

It's always LeBron. Is he going to retire? I mean, let's get down to brass tacks. This is what the audience wants to know. Is LeBron done?

Yeah, you know, I listened to a couple podcasts that talk about sports and that, and I always think that when they talk about sports, I'm always like, I'm not listening to this for their sports take, and I get annoyed. So I'm imagining somebody right now listening to this and going, just talk about an industry, please. Uh, no, he's not retiring. He's not ready. LeBron is the master strategist. Yeah, and so everybody bugs, you know, it. Like I always say this, like everybody says how they don't want their politicians or their sports people or whoever to share their opinions, and then we all share our opinions about their opinions. And so like everybody, he's just, he's the person of this age. He just wants to control it all. And so just like we all control it, so he loved it or hate it, but I love it. I love LeBron. I love his planning. He's so good at it. And so we got a title out of it. So hey, if he can pressure the Lakers to try to make sure they act wisely over the summer, I'm all game for it. It's not my team at the end of the day, so it could be a mess at any point. Do they make the finals next year? Uh, probably not, just based off of what they can do. But uh, I'm a lifelong Laker fan, so I'm here for the long journey.

So awesome. Good for you. All right, so that was the sports take on the Church Digital podcast. Here, thank you for humoring us. This is literally the only time I ever talk sports on the podcast. Honestly, it's the only time I talk sports period.

That's what I've got, Jake. I know, I know this job. Yeah, like I could say that about you. I was like, I don't know why I could start asking about how the game is played, and I feel like you would start to be, uh, you would, yeah, triangle offense. I have not even watched. So I know that I know it's a triangle offense. You know, you know, OG Laker. Come on, I do. I appreciate it. I have no doubt it's played, but I know it came out of Riley. So I know the history of it. But um, yeah, that's the thing.

Yeah, Riley Laker. Come on, you can't have me hate on the Heat. You know, they got Riley. I'll, I'll all I know is that I have not watched one NBA game this year. That's how much sports I'm involved in right now. So thank you.

Well, I will say practically, I will say just transitioning to digital, one of the weird things about the NBA is the NBA is one of these most talked about sports, but they're actually their viewership is terrible. They really have struggled with people actually watching games because most people tweet about it. Uh, there's accounts like House of Highlights on Instagram and TikTok. And so most young people experience it in clips because it's a very clickable kind of small moment type of sport. But they deal with this thing. I did this blog post a couple years ago and it's still true. We're like, if you look at the social engagement of NBA, it's like the top. It's over the NFL and all this, but if you look at viewership, they really struggle because they have more games. And so it's this really interesting digital thing where like, it's kind of like a church. A church can be maybe constantly talked about, but people who actually show up to the room is very low. So it's this really interesting dichotomy that they kind of wrestle with, and they're trying to drive more because people like me will watch games. But the average person, I mean, I try to watch a full basketball game and it's hard because it's two and a half hours. It's a lot of timeouts. And so it's kind of a lot of the church stuff. It's there's some parallels there.

Interesting. I actually remember that YouTube video that back in the day you were parallel to do it. It was good because some good stuff, quality editing out of Jake Randa. Good stuff. Have you watched any of the NBA on the metaverse virtual reality?

I have, yeah. What's your take on that?

Uh, I mean, it's really cool that you could set courtside and kind of watch these plays. I mean, the biggest struggle is just the quality of the stream because it's not, I mean, it's not 1080p or anything because there's so much data in that point of view, you know? They cap it at a 180 view essentially where you turn around and it's dark. And so it's kind of this one. And so it's really weird because there's so much data in there that it's just pixelated. So it's cool. You can be at the side or you can be under the basket and you can see it. It's very immersive, but at the end of the day, all this stuff comes down to it feeling pixelated at moments. I mean, it's the difference why cartoonish types of experiences feel very crisp at any real life ones feel pixelated because the cartoons versions are tend to be, you know, one color and they can kind of merge all together and it looks great. So I think a lot of these experiences depends on the quality. It just, it comes, obviously our eyes are just so advanced for obvious reasons that it's just hard. So it's really cool, but um, I've watched like probably twenty minutes worth of a game in there, and it's, I could definitely feel why it's something that like this will be a very compelling experience, but it needs to get to a quality that's compelling also. You know, it's for sure a better experience if you watch playback versus live. Live is even more kind of janky. And so I watched one game live on my Quest 2 at one point, and it was just, yeah, so it's, you see, it's all, it's like using a Palm Pilot or even like a BlackBerry. You're like, I could see why this is gonna be great, uh, but you know, it needs to be more, you know. And so I, I like it, but it's definitely not to what it needs to be.

Apple's new headset, you gonna buy it? Are you excited about what's coming out?

Okay, I am probably not going to buy it, but uh, we'll see. I don't know. You can't make that a Saddleback expense. I think I might have a hard time, but we'll see what it is. I know they're speculating it's gonna be three K or something, so I don't know. We'll see what the reality is. I mean, I didn't buy the Quest Pro, so um, but yeah, it's funny. I haven't turned, I actually just met with a guy who builds VR worlds yesterday at it goes to our church, and I was confessing to him I haven't put on my Quest 2 in quite a while. So he was trying to get me in because you build stuff. He builds a bunch of worlds in VR Chat for his business. And so, but I was, uh, I was like, oh yeah, I need to, I need to, because I was asking him about like, how has Microsoft shutting down AltspaceVR impact VR Chat? And um, you know, of course he throws shade at AltspaceVR. So that's how those people play.

Yeah, I mean, not that I wanted to spend time on this, but AltspaceVR is like, was a non-event compared to VR Chat. But most people have built stuff in AltspaceVR, which was crazy. Like I never understood why churches, well, why they found it was because it was safe. They trusted, you know, Microsoft. That's a hundred percent why.

Yeah, but I think the thought is, whoa, Microsoft acquired them. It's going to have this future. I think there's a lot of other things, but yeah, you're right. It was the same. I mean, yeah, this guy, he's been in AltspaceVR. He's been in VR Chat for a long time, and he's built many worlds. I hosted an event through the church in one of his VR Chat worlds about a year ago. But he, uh, but yeah, he always cautions me as he always does this funny thing as a pastor. Just like, okay, okay, Pastor Jake, like it's gonna be like different. Like do you all see stuff? Like he's like, it's like I'm stepping into, you know, like the Red Light District at Amsterdam. District one hundred. Um, so I was like, crack it up. Anyways, I know we totally talked.

We're supposed to talk about something, yeah, but it was funny. We're supposed to talk about experimenting within the church, and we're talking about, you know, what you're doing in the red light district of VR chat. So we actually kind of set it up pretty well.

Um, wow, so you're out of—you're at a mega church. Uh, you've got a new boss, by the way. Let's talk about that. How's the new boss coming along? The new lead pastor, what's his name again?

Woods. Andy. Andy. Yeah, Andy Wood. Yeah, he would. It's going amazing, man. It's awesome. Yeah, I'm very grateful to be able to be at the church in this season. So it's really fun to see. I mean, you really don't get to—you don't really get the opportunity many times to be a part of a handoff like I feel like it's like this generational type of case study. And so, um, and so it has been, I mean, I was very blessed to be at our church with our founding pastor, and then to, you know, for the last, you know, thirteen years or whatever, and then to kind of go into this new season to have a, you know, I'm just utterly amazed at both Pastor Rick and by Pastor Andy how they've just navigated this. I mean, it's funny. People ask me different things, and I'm just like, I just—it, I don't know how it could go smoother in the sense of the actual, like, I don't know. I talked to other friends and I see things that have happened at other transitions, and I'm like, no, I mean, that's not. This is really fun.

Um, yeah, it's still the weird thing is to have a pastor—your lead pastor—only, you know, five years older than you or whatever is a really strange. I'm not used to that because I was used to Pastor Rick, who was, you know, a lot, you know, thirty years older than me or whatever. Um, and so it's been really fun. So it's been fun. We are in a really fun season. Digital is very important with where we're going, and so, uh, so yeah, it's been great.

Very cool. Were there a lot of changes organizationally when Andy came in? Was it like immediate urgency? Was it, hey, we're gonna observe and learn and then do changes? Like, what's his leadership style in the transition?

Yeah, I mean, definitely a little bit of both, just, you know, getting the lay of the land. Um, you know, I think I can't—like, there's a lot there where, like, um, I'm not a part of those conversations, but, uh, but yeah, there's been a lot of just assessing and realignment of where we're going, and, uh, and it's been a really nice. I mean, yeah, they're so dialed in with how to do this, but it really is a crazy. I mean, our church, you know, we are a mega church or whatever you want to call us, but it's, uh, you know, when I talk to—when I talk to other—I was talking to somebody at another church actually, a church in Florida, and, uh, yesterday morning, um, and you know, they were talking about something about their organization. They were talking about struggling with getting things done, you know, and I was, and working in her department with different people, and their churches probably only have like five staff members, you know, and I'm like, well, you know, from my perspective that seems super easy. And I was trying to encourage them because, you know, with the church with, you know, a couple hundred people on staff, a bunch of, you know, it's getting stuff done here is complex. Um, and so I was trying to encourage them like it could be more. It could be a lot harder. And, um, and so like, I can't even imagine. I don't even get how Andy—Pastor Andy—navigates all the things like, uh, I've—it just, there's so many moving pieces, but it's been very good in our season. So yeah.

Very cool. All right, so let's dig in here a little bit, and, you know, all this has been prelude. We've talked about how, uh, you know, metaverse and, you know, I know you guys were exploring the metaverse and testing some things in VR, uh, doing some groups. You talked about VR chat, which is interesting. Um, you're looking at, um, you know, some a new season coming in with a new leader, and so some changes with that. You know, so often I've seen lately with churches that they really are, especially post-COVID, now they've lost that experimental edge. Uh, they're going back to what's comfortable, uh, what's traditional. Like, I'm not saying ostrich burying the head and pretending it's February 2020, but it feels like, hey, we're wanting to play it safe, and, uh, the idea of experimenting and taking risks—I don't know if it's economical or if it's just exhaustion—but there doesn't seem to be that experimental edge like there was maybe within the past year or so. I don't know. Have you felt that, or have you talked to some churches that might be struggling with that? Like, what's your take on that?

Yeah, I think it's hard when you know there are things—you know, the classic is not everybody in the organization probably needs to be always experimenting, you know, the role, kind of depending on their volunteer role, staff role, whatever, you know, they might just have a task to be done. So I think it can be really difficult at times to kind of understand or how do you cast vision around, you know, not doing the same thing all the time, but also like, you know, you don't necessarily want your food person always experimenting, you know, and so it's like, or even like, maybe your maintenance person to always be messing around with stuff. And so I think churches, um, have a hard time navigating how to communicate that to everybody. And then the other thing is that coming out of COVID, I think there was just a lot of priorities to build stuff back up, and it can be hard to, you know, as you're kind of, you know, I would think of it kind of like it's like different seasons of life where, you know, when you first have kids, you're just trying to figure out how to sleep and how to eat and the rhythm and how to, you know, it's like what they always say when you first have a kid—they usually tell you, like, after you leave the hospital and everything, just figure out, like, go out all together, like, and just learn how to get back to normal life. And so sometimes I think in different seasons, different things are a priority. And so coming out of COVID, I think it was just a priority of getting the weekend back together. And I think for a lot of churches, they kind of probably just leaned a little too heavy, too long, into just making the weekend work again, meaning that, you know, one of the struggles in every part of the country in the world was impacted differently around COVID, and how that is, but a lot of churches that we can just isn't the same type of driver. And it doesn't mean you can't become efficient at it, and there isn't things to get you know dialed back in, but I think it's also like, hey, maybe the reality is that the weekend isn't the number one front door anymore, um, meaning you're building—it doesn't mean the building's not important, doesn't mean—and so I think there's just that, like, when urgency comes in, you kind of drift back to just trying to keep things alive, and it's because the season of your church is, but I think long term, um, you know, it's just, hey, you gotta keep—you gotta keep that spirit of, like, entrepreneurship, you know, it's, it's, it's, hey, when do you get space? Uh, actually, I was in a meeting yesterday, and one of our pastors said—he said, because we're in—and it was a good point—because we're always kind of driving towards the weekend, at least in the season where he's like, we never get a moment to kind of back up and look at what's working and not. And so it's like, I was, uh, I was just reading a book about, um, it was about your life in rhythm, and it was, uh, it's just about rhythms in life, and one of the thoughts was in your own weekly time, how much do you allocate any time in your week or your month to do deep thinking? And so, like, uh, I do this a lot with my team where there I have a couple younger people on my team, and you know, they're they started very idealistic and kind of like, I'm gonna do everything, and then they got to the point where, like, oh wow, I can't do everything. I gotta, like, prioritize stuff. And I said, yeah, I go, one of the things you got to figure out is in your week schedule deep thinking time to kind of evaluate everything you're doing. So, like, I think churches, they're just so focused on the weekend and just making that work again, and you know, pay the bills and get all that, all the hard work that kind of COVID kind of disrupted. I think though we forget that, you know, maybe we're investing too much energy on something that's not delivering the same results, or maybe we need to allocate this or that so it can be hard. I mean, even Google, for example, Google was the famous, like, ten percent of your time to test, and then, you know, at the same time, they wasted billions of dollars. I mean, that's why the founders had to, like, step down because they were wasting too much time on random projects of, like, you know, all sorts of stuff. I mean, this was the famous, uh, autopilot program—I'm forgetting what it is. It's not, um—it's the anyways, they wasted like a billion dollars because they were doing too much testing on the side. And so it's like, there is this balance, but I totally get why churches drift away from it.

That's good. Um, man, that was a lot there, Jay. You just were—we're packing it in. It's interesting. Have you met Jay? Uh, have you met, um, Tyler Sansom? Have I connected you two before? And, and, uh, you know, he's doing the learning community with us, and it's interesting like you said early on—it was, hey, you know, the Sunday morning isn't the, um, isn't the front door that it used to be or whatever the vernacular that it was around that. Uh, and I'm actually curious, and the learning community reason I'm asking is learning community we're doing is with Tyler. Tyler's actually co-leading it with me. He is, um, where we're talking about how, you know, moving beyond the weekend, and the weekend plays a part, but it's not the behemoth that it once was. What does that look like for Saddleback? Um, not—does the Saddleback—at the place I know it's a mega church. You guys have massive buildings. Um, what does a non-weekend or a lesser emphasis weekend look like?

Yeah, I mean, I wouldn't say that. So I'm more saying it from the perspective of it's like, for example, for us as a church, and every church would probably have a little bit of a different feeling, um, around this, but, um, and your time and place in history and where you're at, you know, your geography all determines some of these answers. Um, but for us, it wouldn't be so much that we obviously stopped the weekend or even don't prioritize it. Um, I think for us, it probably just means understanding the on-ramps or entry points that a new person might come in. So maybe pre-this type of strategy, we might go, well, everybody just comes to the weekend, and from the weekend they fill out a connection card and blah blah blah blah. I think for us, um, a Pastor Rick said this years ago. He talked about the idea of a side doors are going to be kind of the future of the American church. Um, people aren't—and he was alluding to, you know, the empty buildings in Europe, the empty church cathedrals that are beautiful that are empty, and how, um, you know, most people are coming to Jesus not through coming through a worship service. They're coming through a small group or a relational outreach or some kind of connection. And I think it's we've benefited off of this populist type of Christianity in America, um, the last, you know, one hundred years really. I mean, it's from our founding, but, you know, really over the last evangelical type of movement in the US has been super strong since the nineteen hundreds. And so, um, you know...

Of if you think about it that way, it's just like small groups, outreach opportunities, and you know, the lean is going to be—it's going to be too decentralized. There's—it's gonna get too loosey-goosey because you're not going to really know what it means. It's like Salvation Army. It's like, what does it actually mean, you know? Their outreach is super powerful, but their church is super weak. I'm generalizing, but you know, if you talk to most people in Salvation Army, that's kind of what has happened. And then then you just have food banks. You know, long term, they just become—you know, a church starts doing a food, big outreach to reach and build relationships, and long term, all the faith kind of gets strained from it potentially. It's kind of what's happened with a lot of the universities on the east coast. And so I think, um, I think it's just side doors. And I still think—I mean, every—I would argue with most people about this. I have that I don't think the future of the American church is the way of Europe necessarily. I just don't. Um, I think it's possible, um, but I think there's a lot of tells in our culture that people are very upset about where we're going. And um, and I think it doesn't mean that the future of American culture is Christian. I just think that there's probably a future where the American church is not persecuted that way. I think it's going to be—I think there's still a chance. Um, I think Christians really love the nuclear theology we because we kind of read the end of The Book of Revelations, we go, well, this is where we're going. And I would say, yeah, but that could happen in a million years. Um, so I mean, I think, yeah, so I just—I think it's just like more outreach, um, more doing ministry on people's terms, obviously more digital type of things where people start digital. It just means the building is going to become a more core strategy than an outreach strategy potentially. Now, I don't know what that means fully for our church because we're still in the, you know, you know, our church is doing a lot of them. Like our buildings are, you know, we've experienced a lot of growth this last year. I mean, there's a lot of stuff there that is still happening for us. And that's why I kind of go, I don't think that season is fully done. But um, but yeah, it's going to be curious. And digital obviously is a big part of that. Um, I don't know if churches know what that means, but it's definitely going to be a big part of it.

Yeah, let's unpack core strategy. Uh, you said so it's not going to be um the evangelism strategy or the front door strategy, but its core. What do you what do you mean by that?

Um, so I'm just alluding to that, um, you know, particularly on the idea that you know, maybe if you look at your budget and your time, you know, your talent, treasures, you know, type of layout, that you might allocate percentage less around the weekend, for example, at some point in the future. And so like, um, again, this has already happened. If if you talk to anybody in the Middle East, they don't—they don't do the weekend, but they're doing a lot more. A lot of churches are doing a lot more resourcing around outreach opportunities on digital. Um, uh, they're doing a lot more Bible study focus because, um, you know, every country is different, but a lot of countries you can publicly um worship, but you can't publicly convert. And so if you're born into a Muslim family, you can't convert, but if you're born into a Christian family, um, you're allowed to go to church. You know, a lot of those countries are trying to kind of genetically force the Christian community to die essentially. So it's like we're not—we're going to allow you to worship, and we're going to tell other countries you can worship so that we don't get in trouble. But what we're saying is, you're after your family dies, no one's really going to be—it's kind of like siled off into how many kids you can have within your own community. And so, um, I think those are signs. Like, you don't—again, you don't go into a country like, um, Saudi Arabia or something and go, oh, I'm going to just check out church on Sunday. Like, that's—but I know the church is still thriving there, and it's thriving around digital platforms that's driving around Bible studies. So I think that's the sign is like, if you—now, that's an extremist view of the future, you know? It's like a—it's super extreme, you know? But it's—you look at that, you go, what if that happens in the next 30 years, you know? And you kind of go, yeah, they're probably not going to be 50 percent of your budget or 30 percent of your budgets allocated to the weekend. It might be towards a small group strategy or a discipleship strategy. I mean, I was talking to a guy actually not too far away from you, um, about small circle. Um, that's on—it's in, uh—he has a ministry where he does discipleship through an app. It's a really powerful thing. And I could totally see more churches having a pastor that has this mentorship app that you encourage people anywhere to do these one-on-one relationships. So yeah, the what it looks like could be a variance, but I think it just—if you look around the world and if you look around history, like this has already played out. Unfortunately, doesn't mean it's our history, but I think if you forecast it, you can see a possible timeline where that happens.

Yeah, I want to come back to the global church. I want to ask some questions centered around that. But even like the idea of of the discipleship and the mobile app and some of the things, um, how do you experiment towards some of those things? Or what what steps would you recommend experimenting with within the physical church, you know, just in my context, digital church network? I see a lot of experimenting. I see a lot of of of leaning in and new ideas, but really it's it's new church plants. It's individuals that that don't have uh baggage. And sometimes a lack of vision. And there's there's less uh well baggage to kind of work through. And so, you know, you in in your context, you've been able historically to have a lot more freedom to explore ideas, um, and to experiment. And Saddleback—but how would a how would a normal church even start to wrestle with the idea of of experimenting and trying to do something different?

Yeah, I I would—I just told one of our campus pastors this, that you know, my job title was definitely less defined than anybody. And so I think I've been able to have a lot of, um, um, momentum, or be—I've been able to influence my part of the strategy at least a lot more, um, because I have a lot more autonomy, um, because it's less defined. So the more defined a role is, I think, this, you know, less opportunities to kind of experiment, right? And so like a classic example would be like an HR department for a church or like, you know, whoever manages accounting, you know, they're experimenting might be just around what software technology you use and you know, converting. So it's like it's very—it's you know, I have like a ton of opportunity because there's no real—there's at least when I started, there was nothing really written. And most of the stuff that's written is very conceptual. It's not like a playbook as some of these other things. So I think first off, your role kind of determines how much experimenting you get to do. Um, and so I think there's that. Um, yeah, I I would say, you know, one of the things that I have really harped on myself, like, and I would encourage any pastor, um, in any church—one of the kind of the mantras that I kind of repeat is our job is not to get people in a room. Our job is to produce fruit or outcome, an outcome. And so the thought is is that the room experience is still valuable, and it, you know, again, um, I would argue with anybody, even in the digital space, um, people get married, and even in the online space, they get married, and and they connect physically. And until that experience changes, we'll really talk about full digital church in that sense. I mean, there's a reason why you get married and then you move in together. And so I think we're pretty far ways away from that fully experience like replacing that. And I would even argue, even if that is, it will be kind of a fringe thing probably, um, you know, potentially even in 100 years from now. But the the thought is is there are, you know, the challenge would be for any church, any ministry really, would be your job isn't to get people in a room. Your job is to produce something in their lives. So for example, like if you wanna, um, if your job is to be over the parent ministry at your church, your job isn't to put on a parent event or create parent resources. Your job is to encourage your members and attenders in the area of parenting. So the deliverable could be a an event you put on, or the deliverable could be a digital resource. And so exactly, for you know, it could be—well, we do this event once a year, or we create a podcast where parents can listen on the go. And so I think it's just this encouragement is what are you trying to do in your role? And how can digital aid that? And practically, what it means usually in experimenting, I I would say I think a digital is very important track of where we're going and where we are now. That I would say just look at your next year, and whatever you're doing, integrate one digital offering in your rhythm. And so like, for example, my church does, uh, we do discover your purpose. It was formerly called class at our church, and all of our campuses do this monthly in person. I might go to a campus and go, hey, I think you doing that in person in your yearly rhythm is really important. What if you experiment twice a year doing that on Zoom? And so it's not replacing it, but it's just introducing one small integration of digital just because you probably have people at your campus that can't come to the room. They might actually engage in a Zoom better. They're, um, there's probably people that are engaging you online that coming to the room is hard. Maybe the first step is this. And so I think it's, hey, think about your your role. Isn't to get people in a room and tell them to do something. Your goal is to produce fruit in your lives. How can digital or how can you innovate to do that better? And sometimes you just need the 30,000 square foot view to kind of back up and just be like, oh, it's kind of like what memorials do, you know? Like, you're busy, you're busy, you're busy. You go to a funeral or memorial, and you're like, oh, well, I need to like hug my kids. I need to go on vacation with my wife. It just resets you. It resets you what's important. And I think a lot of times churches just don't reset on what they're doing or what their job is. And so I think I would first go, what are you trying to produce? It's not the room is an option. It's not the option. It might be still. And then introduce some small experimenting in your yearly flow just to see. Because the key here I found is that iteration is how you get clarity. And so you don't go—you know, again, the classic example of this is everybody. It's like when PayPal and eBay launched, and they're like, I'm not gonna put my credit card online. And everybody was like, the the arrogant prideful part of people went, I'm never gonna put my credit card online. Well, the thought was they weren't going to put the credit card online in that version of the internet. And you flash forward 10 years, and you're like, we all have our credit cards online. And the thought is because we think it's not going to evolve, and it does. And so it's like it's like the people that go, I'm never going to use a VR headset, and you're like, okay, we've been here before. Like, I'm not saying in this current set you're going to be like, you know, cartoonish, you know, jumping around with no legs, you know what I mean? But in 10 years—

If this is completely different and your work bought it for you and you're working with people in a virtual space, you probably will. And I'm not going to show my receipts, but it's going to like it. And so I think it's just like, let's iterate. And so it's confusing and foggy and you don't need to know it all. You just take one step. And so that would be my encouragement: is like, how do you in great digital? Like, just do one thing in this next six months and trust me. Do that one thing, you'll learn, and then you'll. And so just so that that's part of my is like, what's the fruit you're trying to do? And then just do one small thing. You don't gotta like completely do it all. Just do one small thing. Trust me, I've benefited, and I know Jeff you have too. I've benefited through fifteen years of doing a bunch of small digital things, and I have clarity. It doesn't mean I have complete clarity of where we're going, but I definitely have some clarity. So and I can navigate the future a little bit better because of that.

Yeah, one one of the things, and actually I'm not, I'll say actually I would love your take on this. I would love your take anyway. Like, this isn't that's not that's a very rude thing to say. Actually, I'm really interested in how you would answer this question. Um, I've seen in a lot of mega and giga churches, church is your size, you know, maybe a little smaller even. Um, the expectation of perfection and and such a high standard that really prevents an experiment from happening. A fear of failure. The unacceptance of failure prevents the idea of actually exploring and trying something different because the idea is we can barely handle um perfection with what we are doing, much less trying something different. And and uh, you know, it's what's the old Aaron Sorkin TV show, Studio 60 something on the Sunset Strip, where they would always have that like countdown. I don't know if you've ever watched that TV show, but they had a countdown clock. It would roll one hundred sixty-seven hours and would always count down to the next time that they did whatever the TV show they were doing. It's like a Saturday Night Live spoof, but there was so much fear that was built into the next Sunday. There was so much expectation and so much urgency that's on to that, and the perfection of that, that they really never had the opportunity to expand. I've seen that in real time with churches because there's so much expectation, there's so much demand uh towards that because there's this this perception of excellence or this desire for excellence. Is that how do you do? You combat that? Do you see that? Do you relate to that? Like, talk to me a little bit about excellence.

Um, I mean, I mean, there's a spectrum. I I think first I would go to like I think from top down leadership, from the lead pastor to the elders, whoever are they providing that space um and that that value of um, you know, our our culture for a long time was try anything one time but don't try it twice. Um, and meaning like learn from it, fell forward, you know, type of concept. So I think the leader casts that vision and that space to make that happen. So it's not about knowing, you know, um, it's it's you know, the you know, the idea is like with Twitter, like Twitter and like you can tweet and you can have stuff misspelled and there's a lot of forgiveness, but there's a difference when it goes to print. And so I think the different, it's just knowing what you're trying to do. So I think leadership creating that culture is really important. I've benefited from being part of a lot of cultures where that has been um kind of casted uh figured out. I also think that there's a lot of um, I don't know how to say it, like I noticed especially when I'm talking to people on other people wanting to do digital things in their church and they tend to be younger. Um, there's a lot of arrogance around that they should just listen to you. Um, and it's generally it's the uh, you haven't done anything to be listened to yet type of thought was where I would go. Um, and I've I've struggled with this definitely, but I I, you know, I've benefited long term to become more um, you know, it's it's the Columbo ask more questions, don't lead with this is my idea. And um and and then also pick your strategic times to lean in. Um, and so I think I've learned that if I can, it's the idea with money, you know, if I can be a good steward with a little, God will give me more, and I'd be a good steward with what I have. So for example, like people will go um, it you know, a question that I've been asked in the past is like, I've I've done some help, I've done some consulting outside of my my own org, and people will ask me like, Jay, how how do you do your job and you do this other stuff? And and I and I don't do a lot of it, but but I said, well, do your job well. If you do your job well, they won't question if you're doing something else. So if you were bad at your job and then you start doing something else, they're going to see it as a time thing. And so I think it's a it's a tension there where you gotta you gotta know, can you do this in this season? And so I think um, trust me, I've had many times where I've been corrected and I've been, you know, I've said the wrong thing and I've learned through that and I've been grateful to have amazing bosses that have told me like, um, I still remember one of the things early on um in my role uh one of my one of my bosses, one of my mentors, who said, Jay, sometimes when you talk, you say I too much, like I did this or something. And I was young and and uh, I was, you know, I had to wrestle through, well, like, well, maybe it was me, or you know, like I had to like get. And I think but I heard that from my leadership of like, that's, and they weren't saying it like I was a terrible person. They were just giving me feedback, and I heard that and I listened. And so um, and then also just understanding too, like a lot of times you don't have all the data. Like as a young leader, like that's a huge thing. Like, like I think about, I could think about all these things I want my church to do, but I I don't know what our budget is. I don't know where we're at. Like, there's so much I don't know. And I think the more you as a leader under, like, more come to the place of like, knowing that you don't know it all, and and ask more questions in the process. So like, I might think that this is better than whatever my pastor is doing, but I have to go, I don't, I don't know at all. I I mean, I literally don't know it all. And then second, instead of going, you're wrong, just ask the question. And then I found um, long term, as I'm consistent in my own faith with God, I'm consistent doing my own stuff. I've benefited long term from like just being at and then good steward with what you're given. Just long term, you're given more. Might not be as much as you know, somebody once or whatever, but I think it's just that it comes from. So first, it's top down vision of like creating that culture where people can experiment. And then I think a lot of like, you just gotta um, you gotta know your length. Now I would joke, everybody I joke a lot with other people that you know, friends who have new jobs and do new things, and they and I find out about it. I joke back, I go, I'm just boring. I'm still at my church, you know. Um, I'm definitely a guy who is very uh consistent in that area. So I know I might be the extreme, and you could, doesn't mean people have to be that. I I have amazing friends that are doing amazing things, and they've been at ten different orgs in the last ten years, and that's totally okay too. It but I think if you're really thinking about, if I think if I'm talking to a young dude or a woman who's pastoring at a church and you want us, you want to move it forward, I would just say uh, trust your leadership, ask a lot of questions, be a good student with what you got. And I've found that, you know, generally long term, trust me, I've had seasons where I haven't felt that, but I've I've been on the I'm on the other end of it where like, I'm I'm now in a season where I'm I feel the pressure that I gotta deliver, not to worry that I'm being ignored. And uh and so uh but you know, that's my, that's been that would be my journey on it, especially if somebody's been at the same church for you know, almost fifteen years. So that that would be my perspective.

Beautiful. And let's let's flip the script and and just even as we're wrapping up the show here. Um, you're a leader, long-standing leader, an older leader at a church, and you got a whippersnapper who's talking crazy ideas and saying I too much and uh trying to bring about what you're perceiving as aggressive change, digital or not, doesn't matter in this context. Um, how how do you respond? What what's the wise way in twenty twenty-three to respond in situations like that to the young leader? To the young leader?

Yeah, I think I think that there's a perspective that I've gravitated towards. Um, I I always use I use the example of like, I remember when I came to faith in high school that um, I really struggled that my brothers didn't know Jesus. Um, and I remember I did everything I I was doing everything that I could to kind of convert, but I was their older brother, and you know, um, and they kind of knew punk Jay um and they knew all my imperfections. And so one of my youth pastors at this time said something to me that was very profound, and I still remember to this day that you know, you know how you love your brothers so much? Yeah, yeah, I do. He's like, do you know that God loves them more? And don't you think God's gonna do everything in his power to make sure that if they can know him, they're that they're gonna know him? And I was like, I, that's true. I I believe you. And so and he's like, you you do what you need to do, like be faithful for what you have, be a good steward, but trust God. And so I would say on the other end to a young leader, the perspective is is God cares more about your church and more about your community than you. And so you have tons of dreams, and that's that fiery spirit is there for a reason, but trust God's timing in it. And I mean, you could go through the history books of all the different leaders that had to wait their time. I mean, I I mean, you think about some of the conversations we're having now, even we've had the last couple years about race, and you think about the things that somebody like Martin Luther King didn't get to experience. Like, wouldn't have been fair for him to experience the blessing of all the things. I mean, the the types of things we're talking now are still hard, but it's very different than what it was in the Civil Rights era. And um and so I, you know, it's he didn't get to experience Barack Obama and all these like these things. Like and so in one angle, it might you might go, man, that's really crappy for Martin Luther King, which I guess it is, it was uh, but it I think on the flip, it's he played his role in moving our country forward. And so I would say get a more eternal perspective on your role in helping your church go forward. Like, don't get so wrapped up in, you know, I I think of it as like the Jeremiah example where Jeremiah um didn't get to experience the blessings of all the things he was talking about, and he's the one that had the famous verse like, I have wonderful plans for you, and he most likely lived the rest of his life in captivity, not knowing anybody who actually really listened to him. And so I think it's easy, what what we're saying in like digital change, what we are, what we're actually saying is we want to be there when it all happens. And I think that's okay to ask that and desire that, but just understand sometimes God's plan doesn't involve us ever knowing what actually happened. And so I think just come from an eternal perspective. I found generally that, you know, because of our, especially in the US, I think there's a lot more

You can do it. It might take more relational investment, but it's the classic example, and this would be my hard conversation with a leader: if you're so focused on telling people how smart you are, you've already failed. Like, allow your reputation to prove who you are. So if you have to tell people you're smart, then maybe you are smart, but nobody really cares. Nobody really wants to listen to you. But if you just do the work and prove your concept, it's like our faith. Like, we gotta live out what we read every day in the Bible, and it's our reputation. It's our testimony. So have a testimony in your digital. Like, just solve it, you know? I'm typically not a good person to complain to things about because I'm like, then solve it, you know? And then I would say all the time, well, like, you know, it's hard. Yeah, it's hard, you know? If it was easy, an AI bot would have already replaced you, like, you know? Like, it's so I think it's like figure it out. Do the long work, you know? It's the same thing. It's like all this stuff. Like, we gotta figure out. We gotta lean in. So I would say get an eternal perspective and then do the hard work. And you listen to podcasts like this, get perspective. We all need like an injection of encouragement. Trust me, I've had many, many of those, you know? Jeff, you and I have done this. We've talked about different frustrations so many times, and we use that to kind of, and this is why you created this podcast, to help people along the journey. So I would just say come from eternal perspective. Kind of, I would probably, you know, slap you on the face a little bit and say like, keep going, you know? And then you might point at people in the Bible and go, I mean, are we really? Is it harder than that? No. And so like, we can do this. And then just live it out, you know? Execute your vision and control things that you can influence. And trust me, if they see momentum, it can kind of, it will expand. It might not expand in your timeline, but you know, God's timeline tends to be a little longer usually.

Yeah, what was it? Was Peter that was crucified upside down, right? Impacting, yeah. Peter was crucified upside down. I think you can handle like some, I think not agreeing with you in the workplace. So that was well said right there. Thank you for that.

Yeah, we're 275 episodes into encouraging people on their innovative journey. So been lots of conversations and encouragement along the way with that. And you know, maybe I actually need to go back and count. Maybe half a dozen or more with you, man. You've been regular on this as well. And so I want to thank you for your encouragement, even at my level, for encouraging me on that. We've been working on projects and things, even outside of the podcast relationship here. And what you're doing at Saddleback, it's always, I'm always encouraged when I'm hanging out with my friend Jay Kranda. And especially when the heater up and at least more encouraged in that season. You can listen the first three minutes if you skipped over that to understand why. But hey, we're gonna land a plane, Jay. This has been, it's always great hanging out with you, man. And I'll have to come out to SoCal and for some reason make an excuse to fly out and come hang out with you again. But we're gonna wrap it. And so for Jay, this is Jeff with the Church Digital and Digital Church Network. Thanks for jumping on the podcast here. See you next time on the show. You all have a good day.