CRAY03: Today’s Cultural Relevancy of DC Talk’s Jesus Freak

All right. Hey, we are live with the beta show here. I'm Jeff with the Church Digital. Once again, it's great to have you here. We got a special show, delayed show, special time, awesome topic set up for you today. We're going to introduce the people coming up here in a little bit. We're going to talk a little crazy here. Hey, with the beta show, as a general rule, we always talk, not always, we never talk about online ministry. It seems as the show we're always changing. If you've got online ministry questions, text them, 484-324-8724. We'll answer them in a future show. I, Jeff the Church Digital, Ray the Armist, of course, here, we're always open to helping you guys digitally. With that, Stadia is launching a series of digital learning communities.

If your church is interested in learning how to thrive, grow, and multiply in that digital space, physical and digital, hit us up at stadiacurchplanning.org slash digital and find more out about that now. Hey, so let's get into it. We're going to talk crazy. Every once in a while, we pull a Cray show out of the beta show here. This is going to be one of those weeks where we are going to talk Cray. We are focusing on revisiting DC Talk's Jesus Freak. I'm not saying officially that Bill and Ted's Excellent Adventure, The Wild Stallions, the realization of that in real life is in fact Jesus Freak by DC Talk. We can maybe prove that at a later point, but there is so much great in this album that is celebrating, and I celebrated its 25th anniversary just recently.

So we're bringing in Radio Armist, of course, Digital Pastor, Christ Fellowship Miami, and to have being part of this conversation, we're bringing in special guest here, Eridis. You can check out his social handle there. Enter this conversation because we, the rock legend himself, it is an honor and it's a privilege. You have no idea how honored you are, as the numbers decrease, just as I'm saying that towards Eridis. So hey, we're going to talk about Jesus Freak right here. We want to drop your questions in chat. We're going to be engaging, laughing, talking about, honestly, how relevant this album is maybe 25 years later compared to when it came out way back. I want to say it was like November 1995.

So Ray, just even to hand it over to you, because this was Ray's brainchild. He came up with this idea a couple of weeks ago and I'm like, holy cow, that is incredible. We definitely got to explore that. So Ray, take it over. Tell us the greatness of DC Talks Jesus Freak. So in the days of yore of 1995, you know, when we watched things like Doug Funny and Skeeter, when all that went on, I was driving the other day with my daughter in the backseat and I wasn't listening to this on CD. Instead, it was Apple Music just playing on shuffle random through all the songs that I've got in different playlists. And all of a sudden, In the Light comes on track 10 from DC Talks Jesus Freak. And I'm just struck by it.

And I'm remembering the entire album as the lyrics wash over me. And I'm the only person really paying attention. My daughter's totally checked out. And I'm just going track by track. And I'm like, dang, in my mind, I'm like, wow, this album, it's almost like a time capsule that if we opened it today, it would almost be like a letter to us because so many different things were covered in that album. So I'm texting Erdis and Jeff that day. I'm like, hey, because we're all like super fans of DC Talk, but also super fans of the album in general, everything from colored people, a song talking about race. You know, when you've got a group that's basically two white guys and a black guy that are mixing together and the white guy is the rapper.

And, you know, and it's just kind of crazy. It's not necessarily what you would expect, especially in the 90s, as far as how a lot of this came about. And so they were nice enough to say, man, we want to discuss this years later, because this album meant a whole lot to us. And so thank you guys for doing this. First question for all of us, and anybody can jump in. How old were you when you heard this album? Go ahead, Jeff. Yeah. So I was a college freshman. I was in Fort Worth, Texas. I was flying home the day that the album came out for Thanksgiving break. And so the Mardell, I just heard the other day, this Mardell store is still open. The brick and mortar store, it's a Christian bookstore in kind of the Texas area, is still open.

They started selling the album at like 5 a.m. Open only, special thing, just in honor of this album release. And so my college roommate and I, literally as we were driving to the airport, stopped in 5 a.m., bought the album, jammed out all the way down I-20, heading towards the DFW airport. Incredible, incredible experience. Loved every second of it. How about you, H? I was a teenager, not in college, a young teenager in the mid-90s. Funny story is this. I was coming back from Brazil with my family. It's a strong, man. It's funny, when you brought this up, Ray, like this album has so many milestones for me in my life that it's a little surreal. Not only is the album incredible on its own, like if I've never, you know, interacted with it, but came back from Brazil 1997, two years after the album release, okay?

I was in Brazil. This is pre-globalization, pre-social media days, pre-remember, Brazil was still listening to 1980s Bon Jovi and watching like Toy Story 1 or whatever. Delay. Living on a prayer. Exactly, 100%. Yeah. But, so I was delayed, but when we landed, I have a strong memory of this. We landed back in Miami International Airport. We came back with my family from Brazil. We had done a few years there. We had gone back and forth. We land on a rainy night. We're in a rented van. Never forget, turn on 89.7 WMCU. Look at this. Remember, okay? And it was this show, which I don't even think it's all, if it exists, it maybe exists, but remember 20, the Countdown magazine. Yes. Dude, two years later, In The Light was still on the chart.

Wow. And I remember a rainy night. We're going home. I'm a teenager listening. That's the first time I heard the name DC talk. I heard that song. It was fresh. It was like an uplifting acoustic, you know. Fast forward two, three weeks later, I ended up at family Christian bookstores. You know, there it is displayed, high and mighty, you know what I'm saying? Picked up the CD. But that was it. That was my first experience. In Brazil, honestly, DC talk had not been a thing heard of. We were, I was still on Petra and Guardian and Bride. Those were like the three rock bands and that we listened to in the 90s in Brazil, which in the U.S. had already grunge, had already kind of taken over. So you were that metal head back in Brazil.

Some, some Bride, some Guardian. Well, Petra, you know, a little on the softer side with John Schlitt, but well. The striper was sissy for me. That was too weak. I was like, no. To hell with the devil. The devil is from Brazil. You know what I'm saying? So you got to remember. What's amazing to me is there, there are people that still have like these albums, like in their car stereo. I mean, I was literally sent photos as, as we were talking about this, of people who like have the album in, in the CD player. Like this, this still has, has resonated even 25 years later. Go ahead, right? Yeah, that's powerful because still to this day, you know, Eric has talked about how two years later, this thing was still on the shelf at a Christian bookstore, like promoted big and awesome.

That doesn't, that doesn't happen anymore. Like an album existing for two years and still being at the forefront, even in Christian music. Right. So like Hillsong comes out with a new album every six months between like the different groups that they have. And there's something else to push towards the forefront. We've got Bethel. We've got elevation. There's a whole lot of stuff that, you know, churches can't even catch up anymore. There's so much new Christian music in terms of what they're doing on Sunday. But when you're talking about CCM being, being relevant for two years. And even then another point that Aaron has made that I found was interesting by the time you got to DC talk, you saw them as a rock band.

When I introduced them, they were a hip hop group, man. That's right. Cause you, you, you saw the, you probably caught the first album. New thing or new thing. Yeah. Free at last thing. One of my first CDs and then free at last. And then this thing changed the game. It was completely unexpected. It was completely in a different vein. You couldn't tell that they were going this direction. This wasn't like an evolution that happened over time. This thing just kind of happened in the middle of nowhere. And so now as we talk about impact, like that, that's where this whole thing in terms of impact was just way different, especially for a kid who got this thing in eighth grade, you know, it's kind of heading into that stage of life where it's like, man, I'm unsure about my faith.

I'm unsure about what I see from people in terms of their faith. And this album hits hard and it's got elements of doubt. It's got elements of watching people stumble, watching people who are supposed to be setting great examples for you faltering their faith. And even the, gosh, the introspection of them asking the questions, recognizing their place within, within the Christian, you know, sociopolitical arena. Yeah. Like, hey, what'll happen to us? Like, will we get canceled? Like, what if we fall? And this is 25 years ago. Like, right. I mean, they're, they're hitting topics on racism. They're asking. And what I love is the depth of the lyrics and some of the, and when you reread some of those lyrics, the, obviously the poetry, right.

Not to undermine some of the writing there's fantastic, like some deep topics, yet also with some humor, right. There's interspersed some humor and some levity in the, in the album, which also was new to me. Like they, they kind of gave us permission to play and like, Oh, you can have fun with this. Um, and then the artwork, it was dark. And not to even mention the music videos. When I started seeing the music videos, again, mind you kids watching here, you would watch fish TV at two in the morning on a, on a, maybe a Christian channel. And try to record it on VHS. So I can see it again. That I try, try to. And I, sometimes I would be mad at myself, but watching Jesus freak or like that, that, that music video was intense.

Yeah. Today it's intense. You know, I showed my kids and they were like, Whoa. And, and even realizing like at, at the time that the gap DC talk was my first concert. We were talking about it off air. They actually came in the school that I went to as a Christian private school, evidently like Toby max cousin. Or nephew or nephew or somebody was, was attending the school. And so as a, as a, like a seventh grader, when they were touring on, um, the first, the, the untitled new, new thing was the untitled, right. Or what was the first album? Free at last. Anyway, free at last. And when they were touring on free at last, that was, that was when I saw them, uh, you know, in, in, when I was in seventh grade and then the new thing came out very quickly thereafter, but there was years gap coming into, uh, Jesus freak and, and, and culturally.

Hey, we want more. We want more. What, what are these? What, what, what's the only good Christian rap there was at this season? Give me another name. It doesn't exist. And so we get to this place. What are these guys doing? We need more Christian rap. We need more Christian rap. And then they're, Hey, we're, we're, we're going metal. We're going heavy rock here, which, you know, was experimental in how they introduced the, some of the, the new sound to it. But it was way, it was like for, for somebody who was living that life, it was shocking. It's like, what, what, why are you? No, we want the Christian rap. Where are we going with Christian rap now? There was, there was nothing left, but the, the introspectiveness, the openness of the lyrics.

It was phenomenal. Like I, I, I, I can't tell you at the time, anybody else who was so open with what they were doing and how they were expressing themselves vocally. Or today outside of the worship genre, which got created, right? We can thank a lot of artists for that. I think Michael W. Smith, I think, I think, I don't know, or, but, but Petra was doing it in the 90s too, guys. Let's not forget Petra praise. They were doing worship. Anyway, anyway, but that, when that became a genre, like, are there artists today? And maybe I'm a little bit out of the loop because I'm still nostalgic about some of these guys. Who, who, who is that bold about the faith, these topics, singing it and with excellence, right?

Not, not 10 years, like re recycling Nashville from 10 years ago and putting it out. Like, is there anybody out there? I mean, Lecrae might be right. Like in the sense of that, or, or even, and to kind of exit, but call him a Christian. Who's not necessarily like a Christian rapper. It would be a chance to rapper. Like the, you know, you have elements of faith and drawn into that where it's like, man, this is like, he's, he, if you read his lyrics, if you look at what he's doing, like their conversations, their prayers with God, their conversations about faith, about how he falls, about how he struggles between his family life, between life is, you know, being this important hip hop star and dealing with some of that stuff.

There's some of that, but not this introspective. Definitely not at this level where it just feels like you're opening a diary for these three guys and you're reading, you know, that kind of a sentence. And maybe I'm not wrong. Maybe, you know, Kevin, Michael and Toby didn't mean to go that deep. Maybe they were a lot more surface than we think, but it just felt at least for a teenager at that point. Wow. I'm almost looking into a young pastor's diary, just kind of asking some of these real hard faith questions about some of the different things that we're discussing about race, right? Like growing up in the nineties, yeah, race was an issue. Like we had, you know, all sorts of political issues, but it didn't feel as strong as it does today.

It didn't feel as in your face as it does today. And to hear this voice crying out from the church to talk about the need for unity and the need for diversity within the body was, and the need for appreciation of that. Because before even within the church, it was an old adage of, Oh, well, you know, we're colorblind here. And they were like, no, God created all different tones. And we appreciate that in terms of everybody. We appreciate the diversity that exists within the body. And that's just one track, right? Like we can get into Jesus freak and talk about Christian persecution and about how much it does or does not exist in the United States from our perspective. Because, because they were tackling it from the sense of a global, like, Hey guys, we're seeing this going on in different countries.

And a lot of people are like, well, you know, but my friends at school won't talk to me. And they were like, there's, there, they were like, there's a bigger, tougher faith than that guys. And they were calling it out. No, good. Hey, real quick. What's a favorite song? Hands down. You can't say title track. We're going to eliminate Jesus freak that got, but what's your favorite song outside of that? What if I stumble? That was the, for me, that, that was the, the, the one that resonated. I'm trying to remember off topic, maybe a little bit. There was a three track single that was released. One was a concert track. One was Jesus freak. What was the third song on, on, on, on the same Jesus freak single?

I'll hit Google to figure it out. You guys remember between you and me, you know, maybe, maybe that one just between you and me, by the way, hit secular radio. That's how big it got. They were playing that here in Miami on Y 100 on our secular radio. And it was climbing like the Casey's top 40 charts. That was a crossover. Yeah. I remember that. I remember that. That was huge. And that was that. I thought that that wasn't a supernatural album, but no, it was, it was on because of the, it was Jesus freak. Yeah. Yeah. Mind's eye is an incredible track. Yeah. That's what I was going to say is my favorite track. I'm glad you did. It's like so underrated. Like it's not hidden. So good. The, the lyrics, the, the, that bridge and the, just, it's fantastic.

Fantastic. Great video too. Great music video. The fact that they interspersed media into that, you know, with, with Billy Graham. Can you talk about that Eridus just real quick, because that seemed pretty revolutionary to me at the time. You know what I'm saying? Like, I didn't see a lot of Christian songs doing that or even secular songs. Correct. No. And you, you hear it. Even the, it was it on, what if I stumble? Right. They start with the, the Brenham quote, the greatest cause of atheism in the world today is right. So many people got introduced to that. You know, today we get it, you know, on stories on Instagram and reposting. That was, that was how they were saying the sampling of that, introducing Billy Graham.

Not only did they do it in the album live, when you would see it live and they would cut to the clips and you would hear it and audio. Fantastic. And I love it because it's a, it's a, it's really kind of a nod, right. To, to, and an honor, a tribute to, you know, a preacher, you know, go to the incredible evangelist and introduces a new generation to, to, to, to something like, which is kind of neat, but unheard of. Like at the time I, nobody was doing that. You know what I'm saying? It was very kind of cookie cutter. And these guys were exploring with stuff that was fascinating. Right. But even lyrically, if you think about it, like there was a lot of risk in that particular track because to describe spirituality, especially Christian spirituality as in my mind's eye, I can see your face.

Yeah. For mid nineties. And then you cut to Billy Graham. I see the effects of the wind, but I don't see the wind. You were just like, Whoa, like what is that? Like, and you put your little, your little cassette headphones on, or your little Sony Walkmans. We were like in it, you know, we were in it. Absolutely. We were absolutely. Real quick to the style of music. Um, can we talk about that in terms of, this is mixing hip hop, grunge, heavy metal. Um, Lincoln park had not come out yet. New metal was not a thing. There was, you know, there was run DMC and Aerosmith on one track in the eighties. New metal was not super popular at this point. Yeah. What were the risks involved there guys in terms of as Christians putting this out into the space?

Yeah. I mean, I'll jump in first, Jeff. You can jump in. I think no doubt ahead of their time, right. Trendsetters, trailblazers, like in, in, in, in, in, in music in general, not just a Christian market. I think, cause there was nothing like it, um, at that level and that quality. And if there was, they weren't getting this kind of exposure. Um, and I don't know, I wish I have met Toby Mac before. I have not met Kevin or, or Michael. I wish one day to supposed to go on a cruise with them. They didn't work out. Thanks to my wife. But that's another conversation. Wow. We'll explore that off air. That got a little weird, but not just the four of us. No, but I would love to ask that question. Like, cause it felt like they flipped the switch from albums one and two to, or what it did to, to Jesus freak.

What was that meeting? What was God doing? What was happening? Like, how did that, it wasn't even how dark, right. They went from this light hip hop urban kind of vibe to this. It was a darker, like, okay, we're exploring some, some different, um, and the band they got around them. Incredible. I mean, just out of this world, but musically, I think it was diverse. I think it was one of those things, like you said, you, you had a white guy rapping. Okay. So that you had this, you know, artistic voice, like experimental voice in Kevin Max that sometimes he would bring out to this stuff. That's like, not necessarily pop, but it's, it's, it's, it's, it's inviting. It's, it's, um, but then musically, like layering, like how they layered the songs, how they sampled, how they use, whether it's the mandolin to the acoustic guitar to like heavy rock to still scratching and still using sampling and keys.

And, um, it was, it was, it was, it was stacked. Like it was stacked. It was super stacked. You know, that's why, and that's why I still, till this day, we're still picking it apart. You could attribute it to the Beatles, right? Beatles did that where they started layering stuff that people, oh, it's just good. 10 years later, did you ever hear that still today? We're unpacking their songs and realizing what those guys did in the studio was also ahead of their time, you know? And I think DC Rock did that, you know, in the nineties and we're still here talking about it today. It changed culture. Like the, the culture of what CCM was, um, in, in, in the eighties, not, not knocking the Amy grants, not knocking the Petras.

It was what was available, but it took it to a completely different level and in a completely different importance. Like even the books that, that came out, I don't like the, the Jesus freak book. I think there were a couple of versions of them. Basically it was like the modern day voice of the martyrs. Yeah. People who were, who were modern day and, and older martyrs for this, who were the Jesus freaks and celebrating that, the impact that that had on culture and driving that importance for us as Christians living today to, to live lives of, of a Jesus freak. Like that, that culture as, as, as a, as a college freshman that drove me for the four years that I was in college. I want to be that.

I want to live that. I want to absorb that. This, this is the, the mantra. This is the, the calling that, that God's had before me. And, and, and a largely realized because a bunch of, a bunch of guys are shifted from like a rap to, to this, this new open, honest, new concept in music. Now, I was going to say some of the underrated musical things these guys did to, to win over whether it's strategy, God's favor, or just how time and place. There's all that. Right. And how God does things. One of the, okay. I don't know if you remember on their live tour, they would open up with help, right. With the Beatles. Okay. Number one. Now, as a kid listening to that, me personally, I didn't know that was Beatles track.

I didn't know that was a Beatles song. That was me at the time when I was on that tour. They knew what they were doing, winning mom and dad over from the get go, from the start. Like, you know, so there was a strategy there. Like, God, these guys are speaking to the teens, to the young, but also to the parents who paid for the ticket. Same thing in the album. I'm not sure. Is it day by day or is it like it, love it, needed? It's day by day. That's an old Jesus movie song. Yeah. And it's a Godspell Broadway song, I think, if I'm not mistaken. It was a cover, which even that, I mean, they took, at the time, it was, if I'm not mistaken, the song was secular in a Godspell Broadway original. Got recorded by a few guys, Charlie Peacock, I forgot who.

But they brought that. Again, they're bringing on this 70s crowd as well on this journey. Yet, oh, while still being relevant. We didn't even know that at the time. Yeah. We were just like, dude, this song rocks. Like, this is a rocking song. It's a great lyric. So I think it's strategic in winning over an audience, speaking to different demographics, and still being the same band. You don't have to just, oh, different genre. No, they kept it still in the middle. Pulling Billy Graham in on that quote. The song that I was referencing earlier from the single was Larry Norman. Yes. Another voice of the 60s coming back in. I wish we'd all been ready. Yes. They were managing. Once again, this is before Linkin Park.

This is really before we were remastering and taking old and going new. But they figured out how to do this in 1995, paying homage to the old, but making it new and including others in it. Yeah. Right. And speaking as a fan of hip hop, that's all part of hip hop. Like that kind of sample and all that. No, not even today. Even at the time, right? Because early hip hop was taking disco records and putting lyrics over them. Whether it's, you know, MC Hammer, you know, singing Can't Touch Us and he's really doing Rick James Jesus Freak. I mean, Super Freak or whatever else. Not Jesus Freak. Jesus Freak is something else. But, yeah. So you got like a whole lot of sampling involved, but not taking parts of Christian culture and sampling off of that.

That's kind of insane where it's like you guys are talking about a whole lot of call bets that are talking, that are really hitting on a lot of heartstrings for folks who might have been part of the Jesus movement back in the 60s and early 70s. And introducing it to their children today and to their grandkids, that was a big deal. And it's created something that obviously stood the test of time. No, but the strategy, and I think there's a lot to learn there for anything. And we're winning over. Like, how can my mom get mad at Billy Graham's quote in that song? Oh, this is Jesus Freak. I think there's blood in the video and that guy doesn't look safe. Right? Everybody. All right. My mom would question everything about that album.

Right? And we're still not too far from the days where if you spin the record backwards, you know, the devil. I don't know if you had that. I had a little bit of that in Brazil. So I'm coming out of that. What's a record? I'm confused. I don't understand. For all the teenagers. Vinyls. Yeah, vinyls. The stuff you put on your walls now as art. That's it. But there's so much there in winning over just the different audiences. And I think they won different people at a different time. But over time, that's what made it so successful. Do you guys have any records on sales or charting for the album? I don't. But I just remember at the time, it was so dominant. It was just ridiculous as far as getting out there.

You know, you talked about the fact that it was on shelves even two years later. Yeah. I'm sure when it comes to CCM charts and all that stuff, it was probably riding high for quite a long time. But at the same time, don't forget, there weren't different genres of Christian music at the time where this could ride high at like a Christian hard rock genre. No, but listen, it was right next to, I don't forget, if I'm not mistaken, it was Jesus Freak right next to Jackie Velasquez, you know, whatever, you know, she had at the time. And that was it. I think it went double platinum. Can you double check? Two million. I just Googled it. Two million sold. And that was as of 2010. And so, you know, since then, whatever.

But it debuted in the top 20 on the secular sales charts, Billboard Magazine, and Just Between You and Me was charted in the top 30. So, you know, you're seeing this Christian album was one of the early Jesus, or not Jesus, Jarrett Clay was probably another one who was starting to go from kind of Christian into kind of that secular recognition. It's so interesting today. And I don't even, I can't remember the last time I said secular. You know, it's just kind of all been, I guess, blurred together, but fascinating stuff. Hey, go ahead. Go ahead. Well, I was going to say, this for me, and we talked about this earlier, this for me was like the first album that I was able to hand a non-Christian friend with pride without any shame and say, bro, you need to listen to this.

Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, and with the bold message, man. I mean, Jesus Freak is a title track. So it's not even hiding. It's not, you know, I think Jarrett Clay did a good job of burying it in the flood there, you know. But no, this was bold, and it's still so good that you're like, no, this is a tool. This is, yeah, you're right. You did, we spoke off record, but about this being kind of capturing lightning in a bottle, right? What happened there was just like, there's been some tribute albums to it. A lot of people have covered the songs. Can it be recreated? Like, can it, like, I don't know. I'm curious. I don't know. I mean, is it possible? Is it like a movie where Marvel picks up, you know, an old school one 30 years later?

There's like, you know, I don't know. Can it be redone? I mean, maybe not redone, but maybe in the same vein, can we get another Christian artist maybe one day to be as open and creating an album experience for our time? And, you know, Airdis, you alluded to this earlier, that we're so single thinking in terms of, like, how music is created nowadays. Like, even worship albums, right? Like, which ones are going to pop? Which ones are going to be the anthems that people play over and over again in their churches? But when you talk about an album experience, we were talking about this earlier as well, just talking about there are skits in this album. It's a listening experience beginning to end in terms of even moving from track to track.

The purpose of the tracks being laid out the way that they are is in a very specific order, that you're getting a story from beginning to end. We've lost a little bit, for sure. That's why, even going back right to the vinyl generation, to cassettes, CDs, I mean, there was something about opening the artwork, looking at, you know, looking through the details of all that, right? Of what, like, digging deep into, because they're telling you a story. They're trying to convey a message, and it's all, today, I think we are, no doubt, in the kind of quick, the microwave, like, boom. I need the single now, let me replay it next. Give me the next beat. So some artists don't maintain, I don't know how many, but some artists don't maintain kind of the artistic process of, okay, let me tell you, from beginning to end, here's the experience.

Andrew Peterson's Behold the Lamb, that Christmas album, I don't know if you're, that's another one that kind of went with telling the story through there. I wonder this, and this is not mic drop, I don't want to, like, blow something up here, but the Christian music is so centered on worship, creating songs that are expressive towards God. I wonder if, you know, I don't look at Jesus Freak as worship, I look at it as self-expression of doubt, of asking questions, of maybe a realization on an individual level that maybe is able to happen because it's not pointed towards God as much as it is about God. And kind of moving towards this worship movement, we've lost the ability to have this type of tonal, vocal conversation.

I don't know, is there something to play in that? What would it look like to be, go back towards being more expressive, maybe not in worship, but in music, about being a Christian or about that life? That's so hard, right, because especially, like, for us as Christians, it's not going to affect, how can I say this? Like, we like to listen to songs that we hear on Sunday morning, because we feel like we can sing along with them. We feel like that's, like, an active part of our faith, too, in terms of bringing some of that in with us. And really, for me, you know, like we mentioned Michael W. Smith earlier, for me, it's kind of been since, like, the passion movement, right? Like, early Louis Giglio, Matt Redman kind of stuff.

Oh, man, I got these almost devotional songs that I can sing to God. But these songs about faith and kind of dealing with doubt, I feel like the Rich Mullins, the DC Talks, the Audio Adrenalines, that kind of stuff is still needed. Because especially in this day and time where we've kind of married Christianity and culture and so many other things that are going on that we're kind of losing aspects of our faith to where we're challenged on it. And, hey, like, how does your God deal in a world where evil exists? And we feel so scared that we almost run away from it and run back into the bubble. Whereas these songs made us challenge our own thoughts and made us think through some of those questions that I think we need again.

That's good. I do have some. This may take us off topic and even political. So, Jeff, no, I'm kidding. I'm kidding. Jeff! And she's gone. So we'll give it a second. Come back up. Okay. We'll bring it back. Now is your timeout. Are we going to be okay here? I don't want to go crazy. The last four years. That's my insight. So, no, I do think it's this, though. I think we've, as technology has evolved and media has evolved, and it's like with these artists, right? Artists used to rely so much on getting the one album out, distribution, and then the tour. That's good. That's changed to the streaming and the platform. Still the tour, but they're making more money off the T-shirts still. So, the culture and the business of music with that evolution, what's happened to Christian artists, too, though, is this.

You can have a great album, but if you're social and your feeds and online, it's not either matching or there's not that same kind of clout. It doesn't matter how good your music is. So, it's unfortunate, right? It's unfortunate because there's a lot of good music out there, but without the clout. And you've got a lot of guys with great clout, but not great music. So, there's something to that. And with that, and I'm going to use comedy as an example, too. Comedians have backed off, right, with the culture the way it is of touching a lot of subjects. Because they're still trying to reach the masses and pack clubs and sell Netflix specials. So, there's some things that they're not going to touch.

I think there's Christian artists, okay? They've also backed up. It's like, you know what? If I want to still appeal to the masses. But there's, again, but the Christian culture is very quick to spit out, like, hey, either you're of us or you're not. Which is bad, too, by the way. I'm speaking, like, on behalf of, it's like, that sucks. Like, that's, but they're like, either you're super Jesus freak or you're not. Don't be in the middle or else. So, it's weird. So, that shuns a lot of people out of the CCM. So, they become, like, unknown. Are they, are they, are they not? And the Christian artists who stick with it, then the majority have to commit to the built-in audience. Who's the audience?

Who's built-in? Who I know are going to buy or are going to go to the show? It's Christian. It's the church, right? It's the worship. That's why praise and worship become the genre, because it's built-in. It's no risk. You write a worship song, chances are, church is going to sing it. It's going to get promoted. So, in some ways, it's safe. I like artists that, listen, again, not Christian. Again, we talked about this offline. And it's relevant because Owl City did cover Jesus Freak. I think it just came out. There's an Owl City cover. But Adam Young is a former worship leader, Christian dude, man of faith. Okay, this is Owl City. Nobody knows that. It doesn't matter. That's irrelevant. Okay?

I love it that my kids got exposed to him through the Wreck-It Ralph movie and the single that he did a song with somebody else with Handsome Brothers. That was fun. I love it when it's good, fun music. On the social media, if it can back it up, that this guy's got a cool lifestyle, he's a man of faith, of integrity, awesome. That's going to point me to Jesus. Like, that's going to point me to God. As opposed to, like, oh, let me smack you in the face with, you know, anyway, not to get super off topic. But I think that's the industry has changed tons like that. I'd love to see more artists like that who are just making great music, their life, their social, their tours, their products, their relationships.

Their life is backing it up with that influence, right? Not just what they're saying in the lyrics. Yeah. And I would love to see, I know VH wanted to do this anymore, but especially on this particular thing, I would love to see it behind the music in terms of how in the world did a record company okay this? Yeah. Can you talk about built-in audience and all this stuff? Like, how did this fly past marketing? How did that happen? That'd be awesome. That'd be awesome. I thought you were going to see pop-up videos. I'd love to see some pop-up videos too. Absolutely. Bring back pop-up videos, VH1. Those are awesome. Those are awesome. Those are awesome. Throwback definitely there. Ray, what else you got?

Oh, man. You know what? This has been a great conversation. And in order to wrap it up, we're going to have Aaron just kind of bring it all back to center and kind of sing a piece of the song that kind of inspired this whole conversation, which is in the light. And for those of you, as he sings it, I hope it washes over you the way that it washed over me. And if you've never heard this album, Spotify, Apple Music, YouTube, however you can get it, go listen. Listen to it and see if the lyrics, see if the music, see if all of it impacts you the same way that it's impacted the three of us. Let's do it. I'm rusty. We're going to do just a little verse for chorus, but hope it blesses you. Go like this.

I keep trying to find a life on my own, apart from you. I am the king of excuses. I've got one for every selfish thing I do. They tell me what's going on inside of me. I despise my own behavior. This only serves you from my suspicions that I'm still a man in need of single. I want to be in light. I swear in the lights, oh, I shine like stars into heaven. Oh, Lord, be my light and be my salvation. Because all I want is to be in the light. All I want, all I want, all I want is to be in the light. Oh, I want, all I want, all I want is to be in the light. Just a little sample there. I love it. I love it. Eridus is my watch leader, y'all. You need to know it. Come on now. Well, it's been all fun right there.

It's been 30. It's been a while. Rock legend, Eridus. Thanks for joining on this with Grace's family, right, up in Tampa. Love to check them out at Eridus with that. Ray the Armist. Hey, thanks for once again. Jeff at the Church Digital Sage, you're planning everything else. Thanks for joining us here at the Beta Show. Tell us in the comments your favorite DC Talk story. You all have them. I've already heard some of them on social media. So jump it on, drop it right here, and let's continue the dialogue. And in 2021, let's learn how to be a Jesus freak. So thanks for joining. We'll see y'all next time. Y'all have a good day. Later.