EP001: Rey DeArmas and the Strength of Church Online

Hello and welcome to the very first episode of From Text to Testimony, the brand new show designed to help you with your ministry through messages and beyond. Really, I'm Andy. I'm a digital pastor from the Tampa, Florida area, and I'm also the operations lead for the Digital Church Network. And I'm going to be joined by a couple of my friends, John and Megan, who are both mental health counselors and really glue aficionados. Alongside of them, we're going to be digging in and really helping you kind of walk through what it means to minister to spiritual explorers, to engage with them, to develop relationships with them, all while using Glue's remarkable platform.

This show is really the brainchild of Glue and the Digital Church Network coming together to look at some pressing topics from the Glue ecosystem—from mental health and anxiety and depression to handling relationships and divorce, to really learning how to communicate with younger generations and with the unchurched. These are things we're seeing over and over and over within Glue. Each show is going to have three separate sections. It's going to have the texts section, which features real conversations and real stories from explorers that we really have seen and been a part of. Then we're going to move to the testimony section, which really shows how God is working in and through our topics. And then we're going to have the tip section, which are some practical takeaways and some of the things that we've learned in our travails and really our walkthroughs with Glue. And of course, we're always going to be here to listen to you, and feedback is going to be key. So what is it that we can help you with? Let us know via the contact form, the comments, or the links in the descriptions below this video.

Okay, all of that out of the way, we're going to be moving into our very first episode, and right out of the gate, it's a bit of a doozy. John and I chat about communicating with the unchurched, and he's got some incredible stories of how people are finding connections and hope using Glue. So sit back and get ready to laugh and learn here on From Text to Testimony.

Well, we've reached what I think is a milestone here with Glue and here with From Text to Testimony, and by that I mean it's really our first mile. It's our first episode. I'm joined by our good buddy John Pile. John, say hello to all of the fun, amazing Glue folk out there.

What's up, y'all? Great to hear from you. And even though it's the first mile, we'll still stack a stone. We'll still put that stone down.

Are we like standing in the middle of a riverbed to try to gather the stones? Is that what we're doing?

Ooh, I don't know. Maybe it's the stones we picked up along the way.

I have to think about that.

Yeah, the stones were really the friends we made along the way.

Beautiful. That, my friends, is the type of humor you're going to get from Text to Testimony. Uh, no, John—John is actually—John and I go way back. He is one of my favorite dudes on the internet, but apart from being just a friend of mine, he is actually incredibly knowledgeable in the Glue sort of ecosystem and also with spiritual explorers. John, give us a brief history of who you are and kind of how you got into ministry.

Yeah, I, uh, so I'm the Community Care Pastor at a church in South Texas. And oh man, I, um, I did not grow up in the church. And one of the things that drew me to the church was this like kind of community involvement. Well, okay, what initially drew me to the church was like, "Hey, I get to go," when I was in high school. That's where I started to find Jesus. I got to go hang out with girls from other high schools on a weeknight, and my parents would approve it. So that's what started my church journey. But really, now that, you know, Jesus has kind of gotten a hold of me, as I've gravitated towards ministry, pastoral care has been a big part of that, and just connecting with people. And especially in an era like now where people feel more isolated than ever and more disconnected than ever, pastoral care is so critical. And there's just so much, so much to do in helping people and helping them kind of flourish in life.

It's interesting you say you didn't grow up in the church. I think a lot of people nowadays have that exact same thing of, "I kind of grew up in the church, but like, I didn't," and then I didn't really know Jesus until later. I actually see that happening with a lot of pastors I know. A lot of people out there can resonate with that as well. Um, what was kind of that pivotal moment for you where you said, "Like, no, Jesus's way is the best way?"

Yeah, um, it's so interesting because growing up outside of cultural Christianity, um, it like that was never attractive to me. Um, and so meeting like this Jesus, like slowly but surely, uh, a Jesus that was loving, caring, accepting—that was all the things that I feel like I needed in kind of a chaotic world. And so weirdly, this is actually like, okay, I'll tell the story. Let's just do it, all right?

The like, I was going to youth group. I believed. I'd been baptized and was like, I was in, but I wasn't like in. And I was at my senior prom, and my—I was a nerd in at the beginning of high school. Like, my freshman year, I was like the short, dorky kid that was just kind of in the corners with like an outdated flat top. And um, but throughout high school, I finally hit a growth spurt and had become cooler. And so I was like, "Dude, I want to be prom king. That's the goal. Like, that's the thing that I really want to do." And started as my freshman year. And so senior year, with a bunch of other stuff—and I could explain, but I don't need to—uh, I actually am prom king, right, my senior year. And the girl that I had a crush on my freshman year, whose name I will not say, but it's a great name, um, was prom queen. And so this was like the girl that I was crushing on when I was this nerdy flat-top freshman. And I was like, "Okay, this is it. Like, this is everything that I hoped for, everything." Yeah, oh, is a movie. And if I said her name, it would be even more of a movie. Maybe we can bleep it?

Okay, uh, I got to tell you her name. Gina Spartalotti.

Oh my gosh, that is like straight out of like, uh, like Grease or something.

Yeah, it's like The Wonder Years. It's like, "Ah, Gina Spartalotti." And me, like, uh, she moved to San Antonio recently, actually, which is funny. But anyway, John is happily married, happily married for a lot of years with a couple of kids. Like, he's not going after love. My wife and kids, yeah, is old news. But freshman year, John was like, "That's it." And so I got everything that I'd kind of wished for, and I'm sitting there at the—I'm standing at the senior prom. The spotlight comes on. You go and you dance with the queen. And I'm like, "This is it." And all I felt was empty. And I just felt a distinct feeling of, "There has to be more to life than this."

Yeah, there has to be more. And that really started my like serious Jesus journey. Um, that was not so much driven as much by things that needed to be redeemed, like, you know, going to hang out with girls on a Tuesday night, and more an intentional path of following him as a disciple.

So one of the reasons I asked John kind of about his history and really his upbringing and meeting of Jesus is that we're tracing journeys in From Text to Testimony. We're tracing spiritual explorer journeys in the Glue platform specifically with our church leaders and kind of how they're responding. Now, John, you've been using Glue for quite a while. Can you let me know like how you got introduced to Glue itself?

Yeah, I, um, in connecting with Jeff Reed, right, the Digital Church Network, and they—it was really through the He Gets Us ads, right? And so Glue was a big part of this He Gets Us framework of the tracking afterwards. And so they were like, "Hey, sign up your church and you know, see, get some people that are interested." I'm like, "Spiritual explorers? That's perfect. Our church really wants, has tried to create a culture where the unchurched and people who don't get church can come to church." And so I'm like, "Okay, this feels right." And so we, I signed up, and I was immediately started getting texts from people. And this was before the Super Bowl and the ad, before the ads like really started running, um, the big ads. And I we started to get people that were texting in, and it's an amazing way to connect with people in your city and even nationally if you choose to do that.

So part of what we're talking about in this episode in particular is talking with the unchurched, communicating with those that may have been dechurched. Yes, and we can kind of debate what those terms actually mean. But the unchurched, like you were before you started chasing girls in high school and realizing the emptiness with, you know, her, prom queen herself. Um, do you have any of those experiences with Glue? Do you have any stories that you can kind of bring to the table?

Yeah, and there's a great one. Part of, you know, so much of what we know and what we do at church is based on our theology and our background and our training. But a lot of what we, the muscle we have to engage when we're responding to people from Glue, is our cultural muscles, our muscles and being able to connect with people outside the church in a real way. And so thankfully, I kind of started in that perspective. And so there was a text at some point we got—I think it was right after the Super Bowl, even—uh, from a guy who was like, "I need help. Somebody, like, I really need to get my life on track. Like, everything's falling apart." And it felt very like desperate. Like, it felt very like, "I really need somebody to contact me." And so, you know, being the pastoral care person that, like, the wiring for that, I'm like, "Yes, this is exactly why we signed up for this. This is exactly what we're doing. This is the kind of guy I want to help." And so I drop him a text. And so one of the things as I'm engaging in the text that I'm trying to think of is like, "Okay, like, how would this person want somebody to respond based on the need that they've already shared?" And in my head, I'm like, "This guy's like desperate. This guy needs something." And I'm thinking it's the Andy, you know, how we can get as pastors sometimes. Like, I'm thinking of the story, the ten lepers story of like, this amazing Jesus interacted in this guy in a dream on the couch. Like, I'm already playing like the glory out of how this is going to go. And I'm like, "I just got to be there and jump in." And I text him with some, you know, with some of the Glue guidelines. And he kind of responds like, "Who's this? How'd you get my number?" And I was like, "What? Like, you signed up for this service, sir."

Yeah, like it felt like answering a 911 call and being like, "Okay, we're going to send officers to your house." It's like, "Nobody asked you to do that." Like, uh, it just it was very like standoffish. And so immediately that dream, like the dream you have in your head of the perfect story that comes from like, and you know, again, because I can be maybe a little shallow, maybe a little selfish, I'm just imagining myself being like, "Man, and this was Teddy's, you know, turning point with Jesus, and I mean, he has a church of 150,000 people now in Memphis, Tennessee," like, whatever. I'm thinking through the whole thing. And immediately it's dashed. Like, the bubble is immediately burst of like, and then I'm like, "Did I get the wrong number?" So I go and check. It's the same number. It's the same guy. And I'm like, "Hey, you like reached out and said this, and it was." But here's what struck me, Andy—complete denial. Complete denial of just like, "No, I don't. Why would you contact me? Don't lose this number." Like, very like that. And what I came to realize is I went back and read the original text that was a little like no punctuation.

A lot of run-on sentences and what I came to realize, it came in at like 2 a.m. that night. And I think I just got a drunk text of a guy who really was at that moment desperate, who needed help putting his life together. But then in the light of day, just like denied that shame, just totally pulled—yeah, he felt the shame of it. And that's a great word to use, and totally pulled back from it and refused to admit he had a problem.

Did you were you able to continue the conversation with him?

Man, I tried and just kind of like trying to check in, but he was very straightforward of like, "Don't contact me." And I'm like, you know, if you don't want me to, there's only so much I can do. I'll pray. But the redemption story in my head was not what happened. And this is a note for everybody out there: we are not Messiahs.

Continue.

Yeah, right. Like when I'm going, oh, like all the glory, right? The glory bubble that popped. And maybe that's what God was trying to teach me with it. But it was a great education in one. These ads are reaching the kind of people that we really want to engage as the church. Yeah, this is the guy. And I don't know what his life looks like, but this is the guy who in a moment of desperation called out for God. And I have to believe that God did it, and that Jesus and the Holy Spirit are working in his life to some degree. And maybe I'll just never see it. Like, maybe since then he's gone to another church and he's doing extremely well. Or maybe God just met him where he was. But in this like rejection and denial, I was reminded that, hey, these are the right people. But it's also the idea of, man, when we're approaching these people, it can be—it's hard to have the right words for it—but it's easy for us to think that this is just an interface of you write in, we respond, you write in, we respond, and it's like this online thing. But texting is a very personal medium. It's a very personal media. Most people don't have your cell phone number. And the people that text you that you don't want to text—I mean, think of the—think of the ads you get from you. You go to a restaurant once and they're sending you the daily special, whatever, right? It's very invasive to text somebody.

And so the thing that I felt like it granted me was this perspective of like, no, we're really connecting with real people with real problems that are holding on to real issues and no church context. Because the church context does a lot of work for you. Because if I talk to that guy on a Sunday, he's already showed up for a church service. He's already opted in. And this kind of texting with glue and interacting with people on such an intimate level requires a level of like cultural awareness, understanding, flowing with the punches, improvising of like people reach out in desperate moments, but then sometimes want to take that back.

So when we see these stories of texting, you know, trying to change lives and some people really pushing back, you know, I've got a ton of stories about that actually. One quick story that I know we're not in the right section here, but I actually a girl texted me. And I know she was a girl because she said, "Hi, my name is whatever, whatever. I'm a 21-year-old, 20-year-old female. Um, what can you tell me about this Jesus guy?" You know, I saw this essentially came through the He Gets Us thing. Turns out, and I was able to continue a conversation with her for a while, a couple of days actually. Turns out she was—she believed in the healing power of nature. She slept with crystals by her bed and under her pillow and had a bunch of questions. And it was like, oh, oh, that I can answer these questions. Now I don't know if that changed her life, but me as the pastor, I was able to cogently respond to things. And some of the questions she asked, I was like, "I don't know. Let me get back to you on that." I was able to actually say I don't know.

So when we get to the tips section, I've got a couple of tips, hot hot strats on that. But fire, maybe I can get some fire graphics for you. So you being kind of the care pastor and all of this and working through that, where have you seen the Lord actually moving in with the unchurched?

Oh man, this was a really cool story that I wouldn't have expected. And so because I'm a perpetual optimist, I said, "You know what, I'll take national people too," because there are probably people that are texting in that aren't close to a church that's opted into this. And I'm like, "You know what, I'll take that on," not really thinking about the load that that would be. Oh yeah. And so if you choose to do that, think about it. It is actually a cool thing if you have the capacity to do that.

And so this woman from a neighboring state, New Mexico, had texted in. And she was just processing grief. She'd lost her husband of many years. I believe they'd been together for twenty-some-odd years. But he wasn't old. Like, he wasn't like, "Oh, we expected this to happen." It was a very tragic thing. I believe he was lost because of cancer. And she was just kind of feeling really isolated and alone and didn't really have a church community. But she knew the church was a good thing. Like, it wasn't that she was anti-church in any way. And she was just reaching out for, I mean, really just like a comfort, just somebody to say, "Hey, I can understand how hard this would be."

And so we, you know, we sent some texts back and forth. And I, you know, it's a lot of, you know, "My sincere condolences. I'm so sorry." And then every now and then there's texts that would unlock a memory of just like, "I just—it's the little things, right? I miss breakfast. Right? I miss—he would make eggs on Saturdays." And it's those little things.

But this is where God did some amazing work. At almost the same time in our church, our actual church, a woman had lost her husband of fifty-plus years. And we were involved together because they'd been marriage leaders in my marriage program, okay? And we had been talking. And I just, as we were talking, I realized I was having really similar conversations with this other woman, who her name is Cecilia. She's an amazing spiritual leader. You know, she loves to pray. She loves to do this. She's helped guide couples for more than a decade at our church and invested in their marriages. And I went, "I'm not the right person to be talking to her. Like, I get it. Like, I can be a pastor and relate, but what she really needs is somebody who's been in her shoes and can tell her it's going to be okay and can grieve with her properly."

So because it's texting, it's a more intimate medium. I can reach out to this woman that had reached you know, come through glue and say, "Is it okay if I have somebody contact you that I think would be great for you to talk to?" And she's like, "Absolutely, that would be fantastic." She was so open. She was so open to that.

And I connect these two women, and they—I wonder if they're still talking. I don't know. But for weeks and even months afterwards, they'd been texting back and forth from New Mexico to Texas. Two grieving women who are walking this together. And that is why this exists, right? That's why you do this. Because in her community, for whatever reason, she did not have the people there that could walk with her. And you know, as First Thessalonians said, "Grieve differently," right? Grieve with hope. We can grieve with hope. And I was able to connect her with one of my leaders who was way better at the job than I was of like, "I'm just a guy that's texting you that, like, and you know, I've lost parents. I've never lost a spouse. I, it's hard. I can absolutely sympathize with you, no doubt, and it's what I've been trained to do and help you grieve." But matching these women together did something redemptive for both because my leader who was part of the marriage program and was kind of feeling a little alienated because her and her husband served together and she just lost him, now had this purpose of connecting with another woman who was grieving. And it just blew my mind that they hit it off so well. And she was really able to help her through.

I would love to be a fly on the wall for the evolution of this woman's faith, you know, the one in New Mexico, not your leader, being part of, you know, not necessarily being part of a church community to texting some random number or, you know, getting involved in some random program and getting some random dude to text her back, and then all of a sudden a year later she's walking this grief journey. My goodness. Like, I would love to see that. And like, I almost want to commend you for like making the connections, you know, and not trying to have that Messiah complex that we talked about. Um, did you see any healing from your marriage leader as well?

Oh, absolutely. And part of what she loved about it was it gave her something to do. In the sense that in where she was feeling after losing her husband, she was kind of blogging and reflecting, but she was ready to get back into life than I think the people around her who were largely just trying to wrap her in bubble wrap and make sure that she's okay and treat her very fragile. And I think she was ready to get back in the game sooner rather than later because from her perspective—and this isn't a direct quote—but almost all of our conversations have been like, "I don't have a lot of life left, man. I got a lot of ministry to do. Like, I'm not—like, I love my husband, but I know that he went to be with Jesus, and we were together for fifty-one years. We had our time, and I am grateful for it every day. But I'm not going to—" she was not hoping to spend the rest of her life pining for something that had already happened, but instead looking forward to what God was going to do with her and through her. And it was all gravy at that point because if she dies, she gets to go see her beloved husband. And you know, and if she doesn't, she gets to do great ministry here. And so I think a lot of our leaders and people in the church wanted to wrap her and bubble wrap and make sure she was okay and mar her fragile. But I think, yeah, that's it. But I think she was ready to get back in the game and really get in the trenches with somebody else.

So we've heard stories of the unchurched being drunk and not understanding what you're trying to do. We've heard stories of the unchurched connecting and being literally kind of put into a larger relationship with your church in particular, but the kingdom at large. Looking at both of these stories and kind of everything that you've done, how would you tell somebody that is using glue for the first time or that is trying to refine it? How would you kind of coach them and guide them in how to communicate with the unchurched?

Yeah, one of the things we get so excited for opportunities because for me as a pastor, most of who I talk to are Christians. And so it almost felt like being let out into the wild of like, "Oh my gosh, I get to interact with people who are not believers." And so I was so enthusiastic to do that that it made me think of that. I allowed the enthusiasm to carry me away. And so the tip that I would say is, you know, those mall directories where it has the "You Are Here," oh yeah, as an orientation. My tip is get oriented to where you are in engaging with the world, meaning think through what you're doing. You're texting a complete stranger who had a moment of thought to text into this number about Jesus. They don't know who you are. You have no credibility. You have very little influence. Any influence you have is borrowed, potentially from the ad, but usually the way that people interact with ads are just like, "I mean, I saw a Ceasar's ad too," like, "I like—"

How like, how they don't necessarily remember these ads and I think for us it's this big moment for them. It's just a moment in time. And so like the mall directory, I would say orient yourself. Like, orient yourself that this isn't a normal interaction and so you're going to want to go in for the Jesus right away. But part of what you're doing is building trust and credibility that you're not only a real person but somebody who this person can open up to and confide in.

You lost me at seis by the way. All I could think of was like tips from glue. Don't be seis. And I don't know, I don't know, I don't know that that would work. Four hymns? No, don't do that. Any text conversation is lasting longer than eight hours? Oh gosh, consult your doctor. Consult your doctor. I'm going to leave it in. I think, uh, I think we could leave that in the show.

Um, uh, one of the tips actually kind of running on the piggyback of that is when you're first starting, you know, orienting yourself, understanding that you're borrowing influence from an ad, don't immediately just throw the Bible at somebody because that's not going to help anybody, especially in the culture of the unchurched. You, if you are orienting yourself properly, if you're understanding what somebody is actually asking or wanting you to talk through, just throwing a Bible verse at them and saying good luck, God speed, like here's Romans 8:28, well he's working all things for the good of those that love him, that is not helpful in any way. In fact, that might be almost detrimental. Am I right?

Absolutely. Because they didn't reach out for the Bible. They probably have a Bible and if not they can access one on their phone. They're reaching out for relationship, right? And that is, it's a great point, Andy. Like, it's a great point to like, it is so us. We're like spring loaded and ready to pounce on like, you know, like here's the Jesus, here you go, John 3:16 baby. I've been trained to do this. Let's go. Salvation. Let's fill out the metrics. Um, like we totally like are like so ready because in our in our head this is like a marketing thing, right? And we're oriented to leads and it's like a sales, you know, it's a sales funnel kind of setup. And so we're ready to just like throw the product, right? If we're if we're desperate, we're ready just to throw the product. And what you're talking about is going, whoa, hold on tiger. Like, hold on. Like, you really got to connect with this person first before you do anything else.

Um, and that's another tip that I think I that both you and I have been kind of circling around, but you need to build trust. You know, this is not this is not like those icebreaker questions that I think a lot of us in the digital realm have gotten used to, especially during COVID, when we're trying to get people to interact. You know, somebody pops into a Sunday morning service and you go, hey, Jimmy, uh, how's the weather? What's the, you know, what do you think about, what is, are you, do you like coffee or tea? You know, trying to get people to talk. That's not what this is because I think people can sus that out pretty quickly. You know, with, with, uh, for example, the lady from New Mexico, I'm sure you know, she was sad, but I'm sure you just didn't immediately like try to pull her into that other relationship. You had built trust with her over time. How, how had you built trust? Was it just simply responding? Was it being loving and caring? Like, what were the step, kind of the, the, the steps or the modes that you were operating in with her?

Yeah, I immediately shifted into what I would do to a person, with a person in person. If somebody came to me and said that they'd lost their spouse, I wouldn't be rushing to get them into a group. I wouldn't be trying to get them to the next thing. I would just try to take a moment to be present with them. And you can be present over text and it doesn't have to be right away. Like, you know, and at this point it's been a little while, but I know that I wasn't able to always immediately text her back, but it wasn't about the immediacy. It was about the presence. And it was just, in it's of course condolences, I'm so sorry, but part of what, and but I allowed her to kind of lead the way. Um, because as I mentioned earlier, part of what she wanted to do was kind of like celebrate a little bit and remember the things that she was sad about, why she was sad, he was gone, and just share little anecdotes with someone, uh, a listening ear. And that is what you, that's how you build connection is listening more than you're talking. And you know, allowing them to open up and direct the conversation where they want to go, even if it's not to a satisfying place. That's a hard part. But in this case it happened to end up at a good place because because God is good, not because I'm good. Like, as you've heard in the stories, I'm, I can be a glory hound, right? I can go for the like, yeah, like in my head I'm thinking Jules in M Crown baby, like, uh, like, and so but in this case God really intervened for this connection to work and and happen in a good way.

Hey, thanks so much for tuning in to our very first episode of From Text to Testimony. And until next time, remember, ministry starts in messages but it ends in relationships. We'll see you.