EP123: Justin Murff & Digital Lessons to Learn from the Global Church

Hey, welcome to the Church Digital Podcast powered by State of Church Planning. Jeff here. I got to tell you, I want to pause here for a second. I love working for State of Church Planning. I love this organization, this family. I cannot imagine running with another organization for this coveted season, mid-post, wherever we are in it. Like, the ability to help churches understand to take a physical church, help them develop a digital strategy, and then find ways to get it to work together has been beautiful. And we've done it several hundred times in this COVID season, and we're looking to ramp up again. And it's just been an awesome, awesome experience.

But not only on the physical side going digital, I've loved the ability to help plant, to help start new digital-only churches, churches with no physical footprint. Just recently we launched one out of Stadia. It's called Lux, L-U-X, Digital Church. Lead pastor, church planter, his name is Mark Lutz. And his heart is to reach the video gamer. And so he's doing church as a streamer on Twitch. He's utilizing platforms like Discord and is engaging within that video game community, that board game community. And it has been awesome. So check out his website, luxelleuxdigitalchurch.com. And if you're interested in doing a digital church or you're interested in a physical church that's interested in doing digital ministry, man, I want to talk with you. I would love to dialogue with you.

Here's what I'm going to do. I'm literally going to give you my cell phone on this podcast: 484-324-8724. I don't know how many podcasts give you their cell phone. I just did. 484-324-8724. Reach back to me. Let me know. Hey, listen. And it's part of this. We're on. We're gonna get into this next podcast episode. I have learned so much in the recent episodes because really I'm starting to get into this. I really feel like there's something in the global perspective that we, the US church, need to learn, need to understand. I'm pulling some of the Sam George stuff. If you have not heard that podcast, go back and listen to that. But I'm really challenged with this idea that we, the US church, do not have all the answers we need to solve the problems of the US church. And that there's lessons, there's ideas that we can learn internationally from other churches that may have solved some of these problems.

And it's with one of those conversations that I'd come into this podcast episode right here. Justin Murphy. Now, Justin is with Virtual Church Fellowship, a collective. Justin is very active in supporting and resourcing the Middle East church. Not like sending white people over to go be planters and things. Justin's very passionate. His organizations are very passionate about working with natives in those areas and then empowering them to be church planters, to be the pastors of churches in those areas.

Now, you're asking me, "Hey, what does the Middle East have to do with anything with talking digital church?" And so I was having a conversation with Justin off air, and I was sharing with him how cool I thought I was, maybe I was bragging a little bit too much, honestly, but talking about this digital-only expression of church and how awesome it is that we at Stadia are getting to start planting. And there's maybe twenty-five, maybe thirty of these things in the nation, really, that are operating at some significant level. And hey, look at us. Like, we're getting it going. Isn't this great? And off air, Justin says to me, "Hey, Jeff, you know who else is doing digital church planting really well? Who, Justin? Tell me. I'd love to learn from them."

Every pastor in the Middle East. Every one of them. All of them are doing digital-only church planting. They're doing digital-only churches. They're doing digital discipleship because that's all they have. That's the only option that's available to them. And so while we're trying to prove whether or not digital disciple-making works here in the United States, the Middle East church can is setting an example of saying, "Hey, what are you all griping about? Like, it's working over here."

So I really wanted to do a podcast. We ended up getting together with Justin and exploring some of this. Hey, how is global using digital? How is global discipleship working? What lessons do we, the United States church, need to learn on how to do this? And you know, whatever other nation church you are, because we all need to learn from this.

So here's what we're doing. We're bringing Justin Murphy from Virtual Church Fellowship into the conversation. We're bringing myself, Jeff, with the Church Digital and of course Stadia Church Planting, in a conversation that I'm essentially calling "What the Global Church Can Teach Us on Digital Discipleship."

Okay, everybody, here you go.

So I serve as the chairman of Virtual Church Fellowship, and we started Virtual Church Fellowship because we wanted to be able to support virtual churches that are in the Middle East, North Africa, Turkey, and Pakistan. And I've been a part of a ministry that has been helping to resource more than one hundred sixty ministry partners throughout the Middle East in the same region called the MENA Collective. And you know, we began to notice there was some really amazing things happening in the Middle East that needed some specific resourcing when it comes to virtual churches. And yet at the same time, what's been really neat is, whereas maybe a digital presence for ministries is kind of a post-COVID phenomenon, and certainly there's been, you know, churches going online for the better part of a decade now, over in the Middle East they've been doing it for close to twenty years because they've had to. They've not had a choice in some of these countries. And so, you know, I, that's how we kind of got started. But I come from a kind of a unique ministry blend background where I've worked in international affairs and TV and media and ministry. And so those kind of three worlds colliding, and that's really what led to kind of starting MENA Collective and then out of media collective just identifying these churches that really needed some more networking, some support, some resourcing, and starting VCF from there.

Yeah, that right there has been a radical awakening for me. I was not aware that the digital church had as much effect and was being so effective and had the influence that it had globally. I was speaking with a Muslim native pastor here in America who's running a Muslim church, a Muslim Christian church reaching Muslims. And I asked them, you know, I was telling about some digital churches and some of the things that we're doing. And you know, kept using language like "bleeding edge," "newness," and he kind of stopped me and he's like, "Hey, Jeff, you know who's doing digital churches like you're describing?" And I said, "Who?" He said, "Literally every Muslim pastor in the Middle East. That's all they have."

And so what you're considering is this like new, bleeding edge thing in the US, yeah, they've been doing that way for years. And collectively, my head exploded. I had no idea. Overseas, we're looking at churches that don't have a physical footprint. And we've got pastors that are doing digital ministry because, well, that's the only way that they can effectively do ministry.

Can you like, can you share some examples, some stories? Like, tell to elaborate some on that, sir? I would love to unpack that.

Yeah, absolutely. So let's start with the most probably the most forward-thinking of the virtual churches, which would be those that have come out of Iran. Now, in Iran, it's a nation that's officially ninety-nine percent Muslim. But yet you have this indigenous church that's risen up from people who were that background but now are Christian. And so starting in 2002, actually using Yahoo Instant Messenger, they actually started creating this virtual church inside of Iran using Yahoo Instant Messenger, reaching literally thousands of people. And that same church has grown and grown and grown. And today, the expression of that church is called Maikalisa. And it's a combination of ministry that is partly sermons delivered through satellite television and the internet and then groups that are meeting. And it's just amazing to see how this kind of decentralized church model, right here in the West, we think, you know, step one: build your giant mega building. Step two: broadcast it on television and satellite and do a webcast. Step three: you know, go plant more giant buildings elsewhere. But in the Middle East, we've decentralized that model. And it's been really that's the way that churches have been going largely because they can't be big because then they get the attention of the police and the government. But also, the idea of simply going to a church, punching your ticket, and going home on a Sunday service or Friday or Saturday over there is so foreign because they really treasure community. There's this sense in the Middle East of what's called "uma," or community, right? And you want to belong to an uma. You want to belong to a community. And that's a sweet, precious thing that in the US we kind of just don't really focus on. You know, I mean, we may be a part of a church, but it's just a place we go to on Sunday, whereas over there, like, that is your family. Because when you accept Christ, particularly in that region, right, you lose your family. You lose maybe your job. You lose potentially even your life. And so when you do find other believers, man, you want to be together. And yet, like COVID, they've not been able to gather physically in all times and in all places. And so, you know, it became this sense of, okay, well, how do we create a sense of community yet doing it digitally?

And so for the better part of a decade, ministries in the region have been trying to solve this problem. So we look at the New Testament. We see between the Great Commission and the Great Commandment, right, the five functions of a healthy church: love the Lord your God with all your heart, mind, and soul—worship; love your neighbor as yourself—service and ministry; and in the Great Commission, right, go into all the nations—evangelism; making disciples, right—discipleship; and fellowship, baptizing them, right. And so that's the mark of bringing them in. And so we see those five things: worship, service, evangelism, fellowship, and discipleship. And the question that the church in the Middle East has been asking is, how can we do all five of those things in a digital setting?

And so things like taking Alpha online, where, you know, I can remember hearing Nicky Gumbel say that we will never do Alpha online. And yet, you know, my friends at Alpha in the Middle East are telling us these stories of enclosed countries, countries that you would never in a million years think, there are literally hundreds of Alpha groups meeting online every single week just because the door's open and people are gathering online in community. It's not a foreign concept to them. They've been doing it. So we're seeing the ground has been tilled for years now. We're starting to see a harvest grow out of it. And the church, thankfully, is positioned to actually reap the benefits of that harvest right now through the digital church that's growing.

So is this like, and I hear this digital church, are we saying that there are no—and forgive me, ignorance one hundred percent here. A lot of times with the podcast, I want to learn, right? That's why we're having these conversations. Are we literally saying that there is no church building, like, over there? If you have a church building, it's drawing attention. And so within the Middle East area, there is no physical church building? One hundred percent of the churches are house churches, underground churches, digital representation, something like that? It depends.

On the country, and so you know, there are countries like Egypt, like Lebanon, like Jordan where the church does exist and they do have buildings. And most people are surprised to learn they have some varying degree of religious freedom and autonomy. Egypt is a great example. That Lebanon most certainly is an example of that. But then you have countries like Algeria, which has had a strong evangelical presence for several hundred years, and yet, of course, a Catholic or Orthodox presence for well, close to two thousand years, quite frankly. In Algeria, keep in mind that's where Augustine of Hippo is from, right?

And so, you know, a lot of our great early Christian thinkers came from North Africa. Cyprian, Augustine of Hippo, right? A lot of these guys, that's where they, that was home for them. Mark was from Libya, right? The guy who wrote the Gospel of Mark. And so these, this part of the world is not strangers to Christianity. It was actually where Christianity began, long before it came to Rome and Europe and, you know, Germany and the UK, right?

So in that part of the world, they are experiencing a new revival and a renaissance of people rediscovering their Christian roots. And the fact that early Christian thought began in North Africa, well, today in like Algeria, for example, churches are being shut down. And so while they've had buildings, the religious environment is getting such that now Christian churches are beginning to be closed, especially if they're evangelical Protestant churches. So what is their option to gather? Well, they've had to go online. They've pivoted. They've made the great pivot, not because of COVID. They were doing it a year before because government authorities were shutting their buildings down.

In countries like Iran, yes, that is true. They have had to go entirely online. There is no buildings that are open to indigenous, native believers. There might be a few churches that are still open to Westerners who live there, but for the most part, any of those churches. When we talk about new churches being built, you've heard about this underground church, right? And we're familiar with that term from all over the world. What we're talking about, what the VCF does specifically in the Middle East, North Africa, MENA region, is actually help build the above-ground church. And so we're looking at creating this virtual church environment where there are no buildings, but it's a service, it's a worship team, it's a prayer ministry, it's fellowship, discipleship, evangelism, all of that happening in an online environment where, you know, the Facebook page becomes our foyer, right? And the Facebook group becomes the home group that's meeting in a living room, and the Zoom becomes our sanctuary. And all of these different aspects and tools that we're using together.

Here's what's really exciting. One of the biggest dangers of the underground church movement is a lack of equipping and a lack of training. So you have a pastor who has a copy of the Jesus Film and the Gospel of John, and praise the Lord for that, but he has no training, formation, no discipleship, no continuing feeding. But somewhere, somehow, some way, somebody gave him those two resources and said, "Great, now you're a pastor. Go start a house church." And then we're shocked when ministries that work in the region spend just as much time actually correcting bad theology from poorly trained house church pastors as they do actually engaging with seekers from the majority background who really want to know, "Is the Bible real? Who is Jesus? What's the Trinity? What is sin? How do I get to know God?" And those are the conversations we want those ministries to have, right? Now they need to correct the bad theology, but man, what if we could actually kind of reinvent the conversation? And as we're now building out the virtual churches in the region, we're able to do that by providing consistent training, discipleship, mentorship, and yes, even equipment, right? The radio, the microphone, the iPhone that we're recording on, you know, whatever. And really equip these pastors to not just have the technical skills, but also the ongoing, continual theological education.

And yes, we use encrypted services and things like Zoom where it's, you know, a little bit safer, and VPNs and all these other things. And there is a risk. There's certainly is a risk for these pastors who are doing this in country, but they take the risk. And it's a risk that many of us in the West will never know. But we may end up coming to find some of the obstacles in our near future.

You know, I look at a number of churches that are concerned about, you know, "Am I going to be able to preach a particular topic from the pulpit? Am I going to get shut down? Is the city going to change the rules in our, you know, like Houston did for a season and make pastors actually submit their sermons in advance to the mayor's office for approval?" You know, that thankfully got overturned and shut down in Houston a couple years ago. But what if we saw that happen here, right? Well, this is where the virtual church and having these things established really does make sense. And actually, instead of just trying to reinvent the wheel, maybe the church in the West can actually learn a lot from our brothers and sisters who are pastoring in the Middle East.

Now you're just talking crazy. Wait, you want the church in the West to learn something from what's happening overseas? I'm speaking facetiously. We've done podcasts on this recently, but I mean, there's, because honestly, I hear so much difficulty, like even post-COVID church. Jeff, Zoom doesn't work for small groups. Zoom fatigue. You can't spiritually develop someone without being in the same space. But what you're, I mean, you're talking about like spiritually developing someone out of necessity digitally. You're talking about curing and working through bad theology digitally. You're talking about forming the spiritual condition of someone using digital tools, and these are things that here in the United States we've struggled with because ecclesia is defined only by physical space. And maybe we've had it a little too easy. But what we're discovering here is some of our overseas brothers and sisters in Christ, well, they haven't had it that easy, and they've had to be innovative in some areas. And evidently, it sounds like they've been quite successful with doing it, almost to the betterment of their churches. Like, I mean, I don't want to go crazy here, but go ahead. I'll ask a crazy question in a second. I want to hear what you have to say, Justin.

Well, so here's here's one of the things that's really interesting. Because when people talk about ecclesia, you know, if you look in the Greek and you look in the New Testament, you see every time that the term is used, ekklesia, it means a gathering of people. It never denotes a building, right? It means a gathering of people.

Well, technology, which, you know, in my personal opinion, I believe that technology is under the lordship of Christ, right? Everything is under the subjugation of God, right? So it's not like he's like, "Man, how did they create Zoom? That's amazing," you know? I don't imagine that's the conversation God's having, right? He knows that that exists. He allows it to exist. And guess what? We're able to use the technology to advance the Gospel like we've never seen in our lifetime, right? This is more innovative than the printing press. And so we're able to actually advance and see the Gospel move forward in tremendous ways.

Well, when it comes to these conversations, because, you know, there, the term ecclesia means a gathering of people, it could equally mean a gathering of people online. And then you take it a step further. If we believe that God is really omnipresent, that there's nowhere in the world where God isn't, right? He is everywhere simultaneously at the same time. And this gets even more tricky when we start talking about things like baptism and communion and, you know, Lord's Supper, right? The sacraments. Um, those things, there's an active involvement of the Holy Spirit who also is omnipresent. And so if God is there, if the Spirit of the Lord is there, then it doesn't matter if you're in Miami and I'm here in the DC area or our brothers or sisters are over in Saudi Arabia or Yemen or in Iran or in Germany or wherever, right? God is there. It's the same God we're worshiping, the same God, and so the Holy Spirit is still moving in the same room, in the same space with us. And so because of that, when we get that and we really believe it, right? Like we really honestly believe it, it actually becomes almost dangerous to say God can't, right? "Oh, God can't make that an authentic worship. Oh, God can't use that to disciple people," right? Well, I, man, I don't have the guts to say that. No way, you know? I think anything's possible with God, and we're seeing it happen every single day in the region. Lives being transformed, people coming to faith, people accepting Christ, people beginning a discipleship journey, and it's authentic. It's deep. It's real.

And when we see that, lives transformed, here's here's the challenge that I always encourage our people. We're not just making baby Christians. We want to make disciples. Making disciples, that's the end goal. And so, you know, the question isn't "Join a small group." The question is "Join a small group, be trained and equipped, and be prepared to go out in a few months and start a small group of your own."

Well, how many people would actually stick around in our physical churches if that was the invitation that we asked him? "Hey, welcome to First Christian Church, whatever. We're so excited you're here. Join this new member's class. Sit in a Sunday school. Oh, and by the way, in three months time, you're going to be launching your own Sunday school. Welcome," right? Like, man, they'd run for the door. But in a virtual environment, those are the ways that we get people involved. We have them serve as digital ushers and digital greeters, you know, in the Facebook chatter and Instagram. We have them serve as prayer partners and prayer counselors where they're praying for people in real time, prayer requests. They're also funneling those urgent needs to those of us, you know, pastors, right? Who are who are part of the ministries. And then in the discipleship groups, just to see, you know, how they're moving in discipling. And these churches a lot of times have created different funnels for discipleship. They know who's a Christian background believer. We call it a CBB, versus who is a majority background believer, MBB, versus who's a seeker, right? And then having to discern, are they genuinely seeking after Christ, or are they just here to cause trouble and, you know, recite verses of other holy books, right? And so, and if they are, great. How do we deal with that person in a loving, Christ-like way? Um, and so these are some great challenges that we face all the time. And um, it's just exciting to see how God is moving in this area.

You know, here in America, and we've talked about multimodal, different types of models of church post-COVID, you know, it feels like there's the, you know, the physical church, established church, the mega church, the multi-site church, the micro church, the house church, the, you know, there's all these different models. Even in context of digital, I can probably describe twenty-five different effective ways that the church can do that, can utilize digital. Overseas, especially like in the Middle East and some of this region that you're more comfortable with, is there multiple models to reach people? Is it just like a particular model that that's more effectively and more used? Or is there really some of the variances that that we kind of see here in America? I mean, there's everything from I have a church in Beirut that uses Life Church's Church Online platform, and that's what they...

Use as their main tool. Oh yeah, we have another church in Turkey that does the same thing. They use Life Church platform and it works beautifully over there and they're engaging and they're communicating. It's in Turkish or Arabic, but those are some of the things that are available. You know, there are tools and technologies now.

Those countries, different scenario. Churches are legal, they're public, they're very open. We have other parts of the world where in our region in particular, where the church is less legal, and in those areas, you know, they're using a number of different tools, platforms, models. All the churches, when you look at them, they have kind of a characteristic approach where they've said, okay, there are three general personas or types of people that we as a church are called to reach. Members—those who are already a part of our fellowship, either physically, or you know, because of COVID are having to do this remotely anyways. Then there's the prospective members of our church—those who have a relationship with Jesus but they may not have a church home. And that can be everybody from a historic Christian background person to a brand new believer to a person who's become a refugee from another country but was a Christian beforehand, right? And so that's another persona that we're trying to reach. And then the third is the seeker. And for each country, that is going to look a little bit different, and for each church it's going to look a little bit different. And so the engagement, the initial platform for engagement, is going to be different for each one of those, right? It may be YouTube or Facebook or Instagram, but then it goes very quickly into a WhatsApp group or into a Signal, you know, or Wire communication, and then eventually it may go into a Zoom small group or a discipleship group. You know, different platforms, different ministries, but kind of generally speaking, you know, they're reaching three diverse different groups. They have their teams set up, and that's part of what VCF does—is we also help them in building that out, figuring out the right platform. We liken it to fishing, right? You know, I love the analogy of being we're digital fishers of men, and there's so much we can learn from a fisherman in that, you know? The fisherman, once he's identified what kind of fish he's going after, that's going to determine everything else, right? The rod, the reel, the bait, the tackle, uh, the platform that he uses, right? When to go fishing. You know, if I'm trying to go after you and I—we live out, you know, here on the Atlantic, right? So if we're going after a swordfish, the last thing we want to do is try to go out in a canoe in mid-day with a fly rod, right? People would look at us like we are completely nuts. Well, it's because we want to make data-informed decisions. And so we train all of our partners to do that, to make those wise, data-informed decisions, build the right platform, use the right hook and equipment needed. And, you know what, praise God that we're able to actually do this and repeat that process and engage thousands of people. When, you know, before maybe they could only reach their small neighborhood or their neighbors if they trusted them in the traditional house church model. And so what's been amazing is to see these house church pastors who have really stepped forward. They're getting trained and equipped, and now instead of just reaching, you know, their neighborhood, they are burdened to reach their city, but they're equipped to do it safely in ways they've never been able to do it before.

Um, I'll tell you one other story, Jeff. I had a pastor reach out to me. He's in Pakistan, and he's in a particular part of the country where he is of a substantial minority. And this is not a good area in the country to be a Christian. And yet he literally drives four hours one way near a neighboring country just so that he can be there because the internet's a little bit better than his house. And he speaks in a different dialect, in a different language, but from there he's now starting virtual church services targeting this particular part of a very dangerous area of his country. And he's doing that, and he goes, "It's amazing because I never thought we would ever see a single believer in this part of the country." And in a matter of months, we're having conversations over Zoom, over Skype, over anything we can get our hands on, right? And of course, I'm like, "Let's talk security. Let's talk data privacy. Let's talk encryption, right?" But he goes, "You know, Justin, to be honest with you, what would take years of just presence and being and getting to know people just to be able to have a conversation with one person is literally taking only weeks. And in months, we're able to actually get to a level of conversation." And he goes, "I've been a pastor for fifteen years. There are people that I have been trying to share Christ with for fifteen years, and I've never been able to share Christ with them the way I'm able to do this on an online setting because there's something about being online that allows people this sense of freedom and distance, you know? Even if we're in the same region, the fact that you don't see me, we're not face to face, right? I could turn off my camera. We could have an audio conversation. There's a lot of different options, whereas if I meet you in person, that's maybe putting a target on my head because I don't know if there's a target on yours. And I don't—I may not be comfortable with that. Or, you know, think about it this way: the online church is a great place for that back row Baptist who kind of sneaks in, sits down, and then they're gone before the last song, right? And we all know that we see those people back when we had physical church. Um, and yet now that we're gathering again, some of us in different states, we're still seeing people who, because of immunocompromised states or health or fear, they're not coming back. But they still need to be reached. And so one of my biggest concerns here in the States is we see churches abandon their digital ministries for the sake of going back in person. And I think, man, what about the people that are going to be stranded because their church has chosen to give up on the digital because now we can all go back in person? And boy, are we glad that's done, right? And so there's also an opportunity for churches, quite frankly, because there are people who are going to be seeking and searching, and they're wanting a church home. And your church may very well be the church that they land on and find to be their new church home, even if it's in the place, you know, all the way around the world.

I'm intrigued. I just, even as I was thinking of what digital church could look like, um, you know, in the Middle East, I, you know, I definitely saw like the engagement, I saw the Zoom, I saw like that the relational connection, kind of like the house church, microchurch mentality just done digitally. Um, but I'm intrigued because you're also describing more than the engagement. You're talking about how they're utilizing, you know, broadcast and things like this, if I'm understanding right, to reach people. So they're connecting digitally with people they don't know. Like, is there fear of that? That's an agent of the government who's going to get me in trouble? Like, yeah. And so like, so there's got to be some level of safeguarding. But even with that safeguarding, I'm sure like they're still utilizing the digital methods to reach out with people they don't know to share Christ. What's—how do you train? Like, what's the passion look like for somebody who's doing something like this?

Yeah, it's great. So we actually have a partner called the MENA Leadership Center, which, uh, they're an institute that trains what we call a stopgap. So if you come from a Christian background, you know, what chances are you probably have some seminary or Bible school. If you come from a majority background, you may have a business degree. But just because you went to seminary doesn't mean, as we all know, right, doesn't mean you're adequately equipped to run a business or a ministry or an organization. And just because you went to business school doesn't mean you have any understanding of spiritual growth, discipleship formation, and spiritual awareness. And so the MENA Leadership Center provides that stopgap for both of them. So we train through the center. We offer several different courses on virtual church pastoring, um, how to do digital discipleship and evangelism in a virtual church. We build those things out. And the reason why we call it virtual—it's funny, the word "virtual church" doesn't translate into Arabic. In Arabic, we call it "digital church." But in America, what we found is a lot of people said, "Oh yeah, I'm a digital church. We broadcast our Sunday service on Facebook. Great. What's your discipleship look like online?" "Like, what do you mean?" "What about your fellowship online?" "We don't do that." "Okay, well, what about your evangelism online?" "Well, we put Sunday service out. That counts, right?" You know, like, no, there's so much more to it that you can do. And, you know, a lot of this is just having the strategic vision of what a comprehensive—what we would call virtual church or somewhat called digital church—looks like. And so that's really where we've kind of settled on this. You know, there's all kinds of definitions, but for us, it's utilizing technology to replicate as many physical functions of church as possible in a digital environment so that someone could actually attend a virtual church and still be as connected and plugged in as they could in the physical. And, yeah, that takes some difficulty. We have friends that are like, "What about church discipline?" You know, I get that, but in all honesty, if I'm an online pastor, it's really easy for me to mute a microphone or it's really easy for me to bounce you out of a Zoom group. I can't really do that easily if you're sitting in my Sunday school class, you know? Or it's going to be really awkward if I have to do that in my Sunday school class, right? Um, so in many ways, even on the church discipline side, it's easier. We've done a full podcast centered around digital-only expressions of church, virtual church, and church discipline. Like, we brought in three planters, uh, talking specifically about that. And all of them said, "Oh yeah, it's much easier to do digitally than physically because digitally you're gonna build a relationship with the person. Physically, you know, there's always that tension that you're maybe not able to build that relationship like you would digitally." Um, well, even counseling-wise, right? It's amazing because when I do like pastoral counseling, particularly like, let's say you have a couple, right? If I'm counseling a couple physically, I have to turn to the spouse, you know, look at one, look at the other. I have to be listening and paying attention. But when I see the husband and wife on a Zoom screen, man, I can see both their facial expressions at the same time. And I can be like, "No, now Sally, you're making a face. Why is that?" You know? And so it just—the online, even from a pastoral ministry perspective, has changed the game for us in a lot of ways.

What lessons—um, this may be a loaded question, and I entirely, one hundred percent mean it to be a loaded question—uh, what lessons do the Western church, what do we need to learn from the Middle East here in context, digital, even beyond that? Like, give some takeaways here.

So the first is that we didn't invent it. I think that's the number one lesson that I would say for the Western church. We improved on something, but let's start with Life Church. Bobby, I apologize in advance. Your guys are great. Evidently, we

Didn't invent it, you know that. There's this sense of that's where the roots of the Christian family tree begin, right? It's in this region. And you know, so it's no surprise then when I look at some of the earliest expressions of online church coming out of the Middle East.

It really is a no-brainer that, you know, it's because of necessity. So while we're not there, we've been able to improve and take a lot of these things. And like Life Church has built some amazing technologies and platforms and tools. And I'm constantly directing our virtual church pastors in the region to go there for resourcing and information and education. And yet at the same time, I think we can look at things like data security. The Iranian church is figuring this out pretty well, right? Looking at things like, um, how do we manage to stream a mobile-only service in an area where we have very low bandwidth, right? Well, that may not necessarily be a struggle that we face today, but it might be. And so it's good to know those things. But the biggest thing I think we need to learn is how do we develop an authentic sense of community in a digital space? And creating that community, curating and creating authentic community online is something that the church in the MENA region is doing a great job of. And that's largely because of the culture, right? They live in a culture of community, this ummah. And in fact, what's really funny is there's this phrase, the community of the Messiah. And they say, you know, we want to be this, um, but we want to be that in the virtual space as well.

I had a pastor tell me one time. He says, you know what? We're seeing the internet is really wrecking a lot of young men and women. They're the stuff they're accessing online, it's garbage. It's a bunch of trash. And we've, of course, seen that over here too, right? And he says, you know what occurred to me though is that we complain about it, but we're not putting any godly content to occupy the space. And so the only way you defeat darkness is with light. So why not be the light of Christ in a virtual space? Why not be the light of Christ in VR like our friend DJ Soto? Why not be the light of Christ in the gaming platforms, right? Like you and I know many people who are doing that. Why not be the light of Christ in Facebook, in Instagram, in these spaces where people are using all kinds of technology tools and resources for fun, for relaxation, some for not so good purposes? But let's be the light of Christ in those places and let's be an incarnational presence for the gospel.

So in the Middle East, they, I mean, they have no concerns about physical digital. Like they look at digital. I, it's the line. When I, sorry, let me start over. When I talk to churches like, it's, hey, do you believe that digital is a community that's worthy of a church? Like, do you look at Facebook and say, hey, a church needs to be in that space? Are you trying to drive towards physical? And the majority of churches believe that they should drive towards physical, and digital tools drive towards that. Some mid-post-COVID are now starting to get on board with maybe a digital-only expression that runs alongside physical. But the majority would say that physical is still necessary. In the Middle East, like there's no qualms with doing a digital community. The ecclesiological functions, the biblical functions, the things that you mentioned before, your five points based off of what sounds like Acts 2, like doing that as much as possible in digital space, even beyond that. That's just a necessity because there's nothing else to do church in. Is that what you're describing?

So there are, because every country in the Middle East is different, right? And so because of that, you have some that say yes, we are able to gather, but others that say no. And here's the reality. The fastest growing movement in the world right now is in Iran, where we're seeing these people who are formerly Muslim now come to faith. Well, where are they going to go? There is no physical church for them to go. And in many of the countries of the Middle East, they have laws that prohibit blasphemy and apostasy. So they cannot change their religion. It's on their ID card. You're born a Muslim, you will die a Muslim as far as the government's concerned. But if you come to Christ, where are they going to go? Which church is going to receive them? Many churches, out of fear or out of law, can't receive these people. So what do we do? Do we just say, well, let's not steer? Let's not, let's stop sharing the gospel? Of course not. So we have to come up with another alternative. And the alternative is the virtual church. It is the space where they can gather. It is the space where they can be baptized through Zoom or, you know, through FaceTime. It is the space where they can gather in a home, break bread, share wine, and have communion together. It's a space where they can laugh and have fellowship and discipleship and evangelize their neighbors by inviting them into this virtual space and creating this community. And they're growing, and it's growing at a very rapid pace, which we're so thankful for. But it is both. And I guess to answer your question, right? There's a physical church that sees for us to fulfill our mission to evangelize the lost in our community, the only way to do that safely is through doing it virtually. And then you have these other folks who they may come to Christ, but there's no physical church around them for them to go to. So they see the virtual church as the only lifeline.

Well, think about it this way. In America today, we have a lot of churches that, um, and I've seen this when I was at a very large church in Dallas area that we loved, right? I was at First Baptist Dallas. And we had folks that would come to us and would say, you know, there's not a biblically faithful church in our community. I don't live near a Bible-believing church. So I watch your program. I'm a part of your online ministry. And that's a sad statement to say in America, but that's an ever-increasing reality for many Christians. And they feel like, you know, there's not a biblically faithful community that they can be a part of. And so where can they go? And even more and more in America today, we're finding people turning to a virtual church. And so it's a reality. It's not going away. It is here now. The question is, what is a proper digital ecclesiology look like? And that's a lot of what we're trying to help formulate by looking and researching what's happening in the Middle East and studying the effects, studying, you know, the real efficacy of these conversions and discipleship processes. And by doing this research, we're able to come back and help formulate what a proper, you know, grounded, sound digital ecclesiology looks like for the church. And it's one that we want to make available, obviously, to the whole world. And so it's exciting times. Very, very cool. Love that. I would be interested even to see how that develops and grows. And you know, some contextual questions about how that would work, you know, here in the Western Hemisphere churches. But love the fact that others are out there asking that question as well.

How has COVID affected this? Because if they were already thinking digital, they already had a devalue for the most part on physical church, you would think that they were thriving and even possibly growing in this season. What's it look like?

Oh, it's been crazy. I mean, literally, it is the busiest time that churches have had in years in the region because people are home, right? And particularly, you know, in the Middle East, they take lockdown really seriously. And so, you know, you leave your home, you're getting a ticket and going to jail, right? It's not like that here where, you know, we have Karen yelling at us down the street, you know, to put a mask on. Um, it's super duper strict in a lot of these countries. And so because of that, people are home and they're watching things like satellite television, which has Christian content programming. They're looking on Facebook and they're watching YouTube videos and they're asking questions. I mean, think about it. Last year when COVID started to hit, we have a theology of suffering as Christians. We expect suffering. That's what we're told and prepared for in our own spiritual walk. But particularly for someone who comes from a different background, a Muslim background, for example, when Ramadan gets shut down and families can't gather and they can't go on Hajj to Mecca and all of these different things, there's naturally these questions being asked. Why would God allow that? I think every person in the world has asked that question. Let's just be honest. Why would fill in the blank, right? God, Buddha, Jesus, whoever. We've all asked this question. The difference is as Christians, we know that suffering is a part of life because we live in a fallen world. And we know that this is not necessarily like, you know, this is just what is going to happen in our life if we read our Bible and take it seriously, right? Things are going to get worse before they get a whole lot better. And so because of that, a lot of Christians in the Middle East started asking and answering these questions. And because of those conversations, it's led to a wave of people coming to faith, asking more about Jesus, and turning to Christ in this season. And so what many people thought was going to be a disaster for the church has actually become a vibrant growth season for the church in the Middle East. And it's continuing to do so, and it doesn't look like it's abating anytime soon.

So I mean, this has been, it's a, it's just even here in America, like where so many churches have been struggling, have been, you know, fighting to keep the doors open and rushing back in, you know, even today when I'm doing this recording, thirty to forty percent of people are attending, sixty to seventy, maybe fifty, are not, have not made it back to the building. Uh, we're trying to figure out how to develop first-timers back again. Um, trying to re-engage with people, develop strategies towards this. Middle East, at some level, the Christians there were comfortable and thriving in these environments because they were already recognizing, and they had the strategies. I'm thinking the right way. I'm just on the wrong continent. And I need to go get in the Middle East with the people where they're thinking this way. It's like, oh, it's so exciting to hear where these principles, where these ideas are working. Um, what's the end game here? And especially with VCF and what you guys are doing, um, is there, what's the goal? What's the accomplishment? Give me the mission vision a little bit here.

So we work in twenty-three countries across the greater Middle East. And our heart and desire is to see over the next three years a virtual church planted in each and every one of those countries and to see a work either in the country or dedicated to that country. So, you know, it might be people that live elsewhere in the region but are focusing, and they're micro-targeting, and they're buying ads, and they're really channeling all of their efforts towards a particular country. It's amazing to see this young generation of digital native, techno-savvy, on-fire believers who, you know, their desire is not to physically plant a physical church, but to do this virtual church planting. And they see the opportunity that's happening. They're using some of the most creative, innovative means, everything from sitcoms that they're creating that are actually the sermon delivery through a sitcom that's a series on YouTube.

Then funneling you from that sitcom experience into these discipleship groups that again the main host that you see from the sitcom now is curating your Sunday small group brunch time. Like, what in the world? And so you kind of have this parallel back and it's going back and forth.

I mean, they're trying everything they can, and that's one of the beauties. Because of the opportunity for innovation, they're not afraid. They're just going to keep trying, and we're here to support them and help them. So that's our goal. We want to see every one of our 23 countries a virtual church established over the next three years. So far in our first year, we are about 14 in on these projects, and so we are super excited to see what God is doing. And he's raising up men and women who are going out and planting. And yes, I said men and women who are going out and planting in the greater Middle East, and it's amazing to be a part of it.

I mean, one of the things that I love—and I don't remember if you've said it here—but one of the things that I love about Mina and about the VCF is the desire to help native people plant churches in those areas. It's not, you know, and I say that's trying to be racially sensitive, but it's not white man coming to save. It's not. And honestly, after this conversation, the Western church, we need to learn some things. We had just so many conversations along that. But the Western church, we need to learn something here. We don't need to come and teach. We need to learn, bring in some of these learnings, and try to figure out how to help. But I love this idea of helping natives and empowering them with their voice, teach them, create creativity, to be creative. A sitcom for a sermon? On listen, I feel like I would have been shot had I suggested that pre-COVID. Mid-COVID, I think I maybe possibly a couple churches would have bought into it, but few and far between. That's sacrilege. We've been preaching the sermon like this for generations. You want to change the sermon? You can't change the sermon. No, no. I love this. It's amazing to see. It's amazing.

You know, Jeff, the other thing that I would say is that because of the lessons that we are learning, you know, we've gathered a team of theological advisors who are all from the region. There's not a single Westerner on the theological advisory group for the Virtual Church Fellowship now. We have technical advisors, and we have, you know, friends like Jay Krander, Ivonne Carlson from Moody, like we have folks that we work with that help speak technologically. But as far as the theological groundings, that's been the greatest adventure too—is working with these regional theological experts and theologians who are national leaders in their own right in their regions. And they're the ones that are helping form and advise us, actually, on how we form things at VCF. And so it's been great to work hand-in-hand with our brothers and sisters from the region, and we'll continue to do so. And that has been a great model. I think that's well worth replicating. Instead of going in with an idea and a model and a philosophy, our step one was to gather these theologians and to say, "Here's a concept. Tell me why this can't happen or why it should happen." And we met all the way back in 2018, and we actually began this conversation in 2018 with these theologians. And out of that came the formula and the strategy and the plan to launch these virtual churches before COVID. And so it's been great. We've actually, in many ways, are very thankful because of COVID. We've been able to really focus and get these things done. Because when you have people at home, you know, pastors aren't getting pulled to go do 18 different things for their church and their home. And so it gives them ample time to do just like what we're doing here—having those Zoom calls and getting caught up to speed and doing things.

No, I love what you guys are doing. I love the idea of, you know, Stadia, the passion of Stadia is "until every child has a church." And you guys are tackling some Middle Eastern territory here aggressively, utilizing digital format, which by the way has been working there for, you know, it sounds like a couple decades. And so, you know, to that, my eyes are open. Like, I knew they were doing some stuff, but did some of the level of this? And I'm really interested in the Middle Eastern sitcom that's the sermon. Like, I may want to grab that YouTube link from you offline. But no, this has been, man, this has been an awesome conversation, and I'm sure one of many that are still to come.

So hey, as we're landing the plane here, Justin, man, any closing thoughts?

Yeah, so if you're listening or watching this and you're like, "Man, that's kind of crazy," you want to know more? Reach out. We'd love to connect you. Also, here's a crazy challenge: would you pray about partnering with a current church in the Middle East? Either sponsoring a virtual church or, even better, being a sister church—just being a source of encouragement and having that partnership, being able to pray for one another? It's awesome to see, you know, Zoom group to Zoom group or small group to small group or Sunday class, Sunday school class, just help building a bridge and being the global church. I promise you that will bless your congregation. It will bless your church. It will bless your own ministry, and it will be a tremendous blessing to them as well—just to even gather together and pray together as two churches across the world under one lordship of Jesus Christ. It's an amazing thing to do. So just pray about that. And if we can ever be a resource to your churches, you know, you're at the right place listening to the podcast here with Stadia. So stay tuned, keep listening. But if we can ever be of help in any work in the Middle East, let us know.

Yeah, I totally want to unpack the idea of a sister church. I was wrestling at Sam George from, and then you listen that podcast—you want to go back? Let's do it. He was exploding my brain. And I'm listening to him talking, I'm like, "Somebody needs to start a sister church program to get some international culture experience into some Western churches," just to allow that and hear that you're already doing that, man. That I should have expected, but that is awesome. I love that.

So hey, Justin, sir, I want to thank you for the time here. It's been a pleasure, and looking forward to learning more about the global church and how they're utilizing digital and how they're discipling and how they're already executing spiritual formation while we here at the US are like, "Can we do that? Are we sure we can do that?" This is a fascinating conversation.

So hey, for Justin with VCF, this is Jeff with the Church Digital, Stadia Church Planting. Thanks for jumping on the show here. We'll see you next time on the pod. You have a good day.