EP191: PastorBrock & The Metaverse Missionary

Okay so right off the bat, let me tell you, listening audience out there, I had no idea I was being controversial when I was talking about the metaverse and the role of the church in the future of the metaverse. I had no idea I was gonna get all the backlash on YouTube that I did. But evidently I am, and I feel like I need to publicly acknowledge this and even stand to it. I am not the seed of Satan. I don't believe the birthplace of the Antichrist is going to be in virtual reality, and I don't think that the metaverse is hell because it was made by man, not made by God. There may be some questionings, you know, so maybe some rough field theology we need to examine in this space. And listen, you know, I get people questioning me all the time, but that felt a little extreme. But I do want to talk about the idea of meta, the metaverse today. As a matter of fact, we're bringing into the conversation Pastor Brock. Now here's the deal: Pastor Brock is a metaverse missionary. He is an evangelist. He literally walks around VR Chat, one of the virtual reality platforms, and not literally—well, I guess literally as avatar—walks around, but he spends time in that community witnessing. And we talk about that. What is it like to share Jesus in the wild, wild west in crazy environments? What is it like to build relationships with people? And what does it look like to do discipleship, disciple-making multiplication, even in that space? And the beautiful thing is that Pastor Brock in this conversation talks about how he doesn't have all the answers but he's open to it and is even wrestling with it at a deeper level. It's a beautiful conversation.

Now I gotta tell you right off the bat that there's things theologically or even talking about theology at the beginning—there's some things that Pastor Brock and I don't see eye to eye on. And guess what? As Christians, that's okay, right? Like we can have different opinions and different views of situations and still like, respect and like each other and want to spend time. And so you're going to hear some of that. Now, really the biggest difference I think between Pastor Brock and—well, we'll get into it—but it's really centered around the digital church. Can you be a fully functioning ecclesiologically stable church in digital space? Ironically, Pastor Brock, who's an evangelist, who is witnessing, who's looking at digital as a mission field, says, "You know what, I don't think you can do that as a church." And that's cool. There are others that in the VR space that say you can. DJ Soto, Jade Earhart, you know, plenty of others. Jason Polling—Jason Polling actually will be on the podcast here in a couple weeks. And so there's plenty of others that say you can. We'll all stand before God one day and they'll tell us where we're right, we're wrong, I guess. And so, you know, until then we can just do the best that we can. But what I love about this conversation with Pastor Brock is we had the conversation even though we were different opinions on things. He was still able and wanting to come and wanting to dialogue, and we still learn something through this and other conversations that we've had.

So for this conversation, we're bringing into the table Pastor Brock from Pastor Brock, who talked about Twitch and a number of other things that he does. We're bringing to myself, Jeff, with the Church Digital and with Stadia Church Planting, in a conversation that I'm simply calling the Metaverse Missionary. Okay, everybody, here you go, man.

So talk to me about this ministry. Talk to me about what you're doing in the metaverse. It's very exciting.

Very exciting. Just the number of people that you can connect with in more physical mediums, you are pretty limited to your geographical area. Within what, thirty minutes at most? I mean, maybe some people will drive a little bit longer than that, but for the most part, thirty minutes driving distance—that's your limit. It's been remarkable to see the connections we've been able to make with people all over the world. We've got a guy from Mumbai who shows up once in a while. We've got—I don't know, have you guys talked about the story of Alice? This is kind of a story that's woven through DJ, J-Po, Jade, a lot of your former guests. This is a tremendous story.

So is Alice the Antichrist? The Antichrist? Yes. Okay, well, you know what, what's funny is J-Po has told that story. Well, actually, we're not—we haven't even aired that yet. I know Jade has told that story. We published it on social media. Go ahead, tell us a little bit about Alice.

It's a remarkable story. I'll do it. I'll be quick because, you know, it's been told before. But so we had—I had a woman kind of come in to—I don't remember if she joined us first on Twitch or in VR Chat. But on her Twitch handle was Satan's Sexy, and then it was Future Queen of Hell. Future Queen of Hell. That's what I was resonating with. Yeah, yeah, this is a full-blown, like, satanic, you know, oriented person. And over the last, let's say, year and a half, it's been remarkable. This woman's come to faith in Christ. I consider her one of a dear friend, and I think that, you know, attests to the power of a digital medium. And you know, just this woman in Cornwall—I mean, UK—I mean, who would have ever thought? It's just a remarkable, remarkable thing. And it's really woven through a lot of our different communities. So she's a member of J-Po's church, Cornerstone, but, you know, Jade's friends with her and I am and DJ, and it's just been amazing, cooperative effort. She's just the sweetest. She has the best questions too. She's incredibly intelligent. And I mean, that would never happen. Like, there's no way that I would ever be able to physically connect with her, but through this digital means, I think the Holy Spirit brought our paths together. And how beautiful.

Beautiful. Yeah, so she came to Christ through the metaverse, through virtual reality. And it's funny like all the names that you mentioned—you're in Wisconsin or you're in Michigan?

Michigan. Yeah.

J-Po's in Northern California. Jade's in Montana. DJ's East Coast. Where is he? I don't know. He moved around recently. He's, I think, trying to build out a compound. Yeah, it's crazy. And then DJ's, I think, recently moved to East Coast here in Virginia, I want to say. And so like, none of these people—they're not even on the same continent as the Future Queen of Hell. Yet somehow we've managed to figure out how to bring the Future Queen of Hell to Christ. I mean, what? It's just a phenomenal story. And I love—I love her name now as Alice in the Palace, right? So instead of being the Future Queen of Hell, she's in the palace of the King. I mean, that's just beauty. I think Jade said it best the other day in a tweet: "If I'm involved in nothing else, I feel like my life has meaning that brings the love of Christ to someone who was so far from Christ. It fills my life with tremendous meaning to be a part of that."

So let me ask—let's put some descriptors on this. What are you actually doing in the metaverse? Like, DJ's running a full church. Jade's—not Jade's—you know, doing some unique things just kind of with Twitch and VR. J-Po's running a campus. Like, what does ministry particularly look like for you in this space?

Yeah, excellent question. So my ecclesiology, my understanding of the church, is I really think there's so much that the digital space can do. But there, I think, is a point where, you know, encountering the body of Christ in a physical way, I think that's still important. So I consider myself kind of parachurch, Christian, because I usually use the language of a pan-Christian fellowship—pan meaning all—so all Christian fellowship. We have Catholics, we have Evangelicals, we have, you know, all across the Christian spectrum. The thing that I like about that is you get all of those voices shining a little bit of interesting angles and thoughts and perspectives. And I think you can do that if you see yourself as a church, but, you know, I think there's, you know, when it comes to doctrinal unity, I think those things, at least coming from my background—as I was a Lutheran Church Missouri Synod pastor for a number of years, and then this summer my family and I converted to Eastern Orthodoxy—so we see ourselves more of it's an important piece having that doctrinal unity within a church. So I think that becomes more difficult in the digital space having a unified doctrinal statement. And so I think it just, for me, it allows my conscience to not have to worry about, like, "Oh, are they in line with me?" and this kind of thing. And we can just try to work on those common ground pieces, you know? Jesus is the Son of God. We need Him for salvation. He loves you, right? You know, and I think that allows me to kind of just focus on that.

Yeah, so I mean, for you it's really more of digital meta, where DJ and where Jason Polling are looking in ecclesiology. They're looking and saying, "Hey, we can be church in the metaverse." You know, and you're pausing. You're not quite to that level. I disagree, but it's okay. I still love you. You can be wrong. I still love you.

Yeah, yeah, it's cool. Well, believe me, so many people also disagree with me. At least you're looking at digital as a mission field.

Oh, I just could say that's my dream. Like, that's my dream. Like, I would love nothing more than to be, you know, part-time—I mean, part-time seems as big as the dream could go at this point—but I'd love to be a part-time digital missionary. I would love to be in VR Chat twenty hours a week preaching the gospel to people, connecting people with the, um, connecting people with Christ. And, you know, maybe one day. But that's the dream.

Yeah, so it's a mission field. Like, that's undeniable, right? The ability to connect with people—I mean, thousands of people. I don't know what VR Chat is up to as far as concurrent users right now. I'd say somewhere in the tens of thousands, I think. You know, but think about that. Like, literally anyone who's listening to this podcast could go in, download VR Chat, and have ten thousand people that you could witness to. Many people who, you know, young people, people in dark places. I mean, it's just profound.

So VR Chat—it's, you know, there's—I'm just even backing up—there's a lot of people who now, thanks to, um, thanks to Facebook—excuse me—thanks to Meta—now they're asking all these metaverse questions. Um, VR Chat has been described to me as the wild, wild west. A lot of the, you know, the parental controls and a lot of the things that you would normally see on Horizons, which is Facebook's platform, or Alt VR, which is Microsoft's, Rec Room, which is a lot of the game consoles are on there, you know, there's parental controls and guidance there. VR Chat, though, where you're really doing a lot of your evangelizing, sharing of the gospel—like, there's not a lot of that protection. And what I've seen and what has been described is it's a little nuts. Do you have any, like, stories to share on that?

Absolutely, absolutely. I mean, just so when I started off in VR Chat, we would have just public services, right? You know, anybody can come in. You know, you can find it on the world map and you could just join in. But pretty quickly we had people that were just coming in there saying—not even worth mentioning, right? You're not even alluding to—just the most—I mean, you can just imagine the most profane, vile, blasphemous stuff that you know, it was just terrible. And in other platforms, you—

Can keep that handle on it. But VR Chat really loves the freedom of expression, and you know, especially about customizing your avatar. People go into this program called Blender and they can make their digital appearance literally whatever they want. You don't select from a couple. Like, you can make it completely custom. If you wanna fireballs coming out of your ears, you can do that, right? Like, literally the imagination is the limit. And to be able to share your creations, these digital creations, that's really at the core of VR Chat. And so the younger crowd, you know, like let's say fifteen to twenty-five, which is most of my community, um, they, that's where they want to be. They don't want to be in this kind of, you know, very generic avatar. They want to express themselves in a digital way. But yeah, so with that freedom, of course, comes with just, you know, freedom to do evil, right?

Yeah, it's interesting. There's an interesting take there on, you know, free will, even made decisions, and using things for the good and things actually being neutral. But you know, we as humans can either interact with them in a good way or a wicked way. So yeah, yeah, I mean, there's a little bit of even biblical context there. You've got all the freedom in the world, yet you still manage to go for the fruit, the thing that you shouldn't. The idea of doing evil. Um, so like, what? You're a digital, you're a meta missionary. Like, I don't know if you've ever been described as such, but you're literally being a missionary out in the field. Um, what does a conversation look like? You describe maybe starting to do like full church services. Are you still using that technique in that process, or have you evolved? Like, what has being a missionary, what does it practically look like in the metaverse?

So I kind of see them as two separate activities, though. I mean, there's so I'll go in and be kind of more of a missionary in terms of presenting the gospel to just completely random people. So I'll go into a world, and so I kind of see this as apart from kind of my weekly service and weekly Bible study. I have two events: Sunday evenings, Eastern Standard Time, and Tuesday evenings, Eastern Standard Times. We have a Bible study and a service. But then throughout the week, as schedule allows, I'll just go into a completely random world with people I have no one I know at all. And there'll be a group congregated around a mirror for whatever reason. In VR Chat, everybody likes to go in front of a mirror so they can see their digital representation of themselves moving and interacting. Because with VR, all of your hand motions, and sometimes if you have, you know, feet trackers, you can have all your entire body moves in this virtual space. And so people, if they want to see themselves as this digital them, right? And there's a lot of interesting connections there. But anyways, I'll go up to this mirror with, you know, like let's say five, six people, and I'll say, "Hey, can I ask you a question?" Um, they'll say, "Sure, sure, go ahead. What's the meaning of life?" And you just get all sorts of interesting answers to that. You know, people will, you know, usually the most common answers is somewhere along the lines of pleasure, right? Whatever makes me happy. But you know, I always joke with them. This is kind of my tried and true phrase: "Well, you know, pleasure's good and all, but there's something even more important than pleasure, and that's love, right? Like, if your mom needs a kidney, you know, you're not gonna say, 'Well, it's not gonna bring you a lot of pleasure, right?' You know, but you're gonna be willing to let some dude hack in there with a kidney interior, you know, with a scalpel and take out your kidney. And why? Because love. Love is the most important thing." And then so we talk about relationship and love, and then that leads to the ultimate relationship. So that's kind of what I do. That's kind of how the conversation usually goes. And I really, there is a script of sorts, but I really try to, I chafe at that a little bit, you know? I think that, um, I really want the people in America and with to be genuinely heard. There's a, uh, I worked at Jimmy John's in college, and there's this sign at Jimmy John's, and it says, "People who want to have religious conversations with you never want to hear your opinions on the matter," or something along those lines. Like, that's really insightful. And so I think where the church has gone wrong is we don't listen, right? We talk, but we don't listen. So I really try to make the person, whoever I'm interacting with, whether they're antagonistic or not, I try to make them feel heard. And I want to genuinely hear them and hear their thought.

Yeah, that's even in church online, in broadcast and digital ministry. Um, we talk about how it's better to ask questions and make statements, and through the relationship, learn about people and allow the spirit to move through that relationship. And I'm actually really excited to hear that same logic. I mean, that's not limited to just digital. It works in the metaverse, in 2021. I think it works in IRL too, in real life. But that, you know, maybe a side conversation. So through, um, you know, these meetings, the people, having the conversations, like, do you know anything about them? Have you been able to pull any characteristics, demographics? Like, you mentioned fifteen to twenty-five earlier. Like, what else are you learning about these people that you're interacting with in the metaverse?

Well, you know, so VR Chat specifically, um, I heard someone say that a stat recently that over, well, over fifty percent of VR Chat UV users are in private rooms. Um, and that would allude to some darker activities. I'll leave it there. We'll keep that PG-thirteen. Just leave it at that. So there's a lot of virtual, um, sexual immorality, let's say that way. And you know, I think we can leave it at that. So this is like the AOL chat rooms of the nineties, but what you're basically describing here, okay, all right, all right, right? Yeah, kinda, right? Yeah, like, and in fact, people like do this sort of thing. Like, they get their kicks. Sometimes people will come into my middle of my church service and do this sort of thing, right? Like, at least, you know, how about that, right? Like, nobody has to worry about an IRL, you know, two people shacking up in the back of the church, you know, hopefully not, you know. So, um, yeah, so there's really a longing, you know? I remember a sermon by John Piper, um, once, and he was talking about, you know, we as human beings were made for this relationship with God. And if we're swimming in this world made for that, we have to fill our hunger with the best thing that can substitute it, and that's sex. I was just listening in the car today some song. Um, it's basically, you know, you see this a lot in pop music. There's this connection between religion and sex. And, um, and so really what we're doing is trying to convert people from the religion of sex to the faith in Christ. Um, and I think that's potent. That's really, I think, a profound thing in VR Chat, which is so sexualized. Um, so yeah. Now, what I know, and I don't, I know the other platforms better than VR Chat. I don't see the sexuality in some of the other platforms near to the level that I do with within the VR. So there's a legit audience out there listening. VR Chat's a little more aggressive. VR Chat, yeah, specifically. This is not possible just because of that custom avatar piece. You can make yourself look any way you want. You're right. In all the other VR platforms, that's not the case. Just not possible.

Yeah, um, are you reaching, and we mentioned we talked about the future queen of hell or princess and in the palace now? Like, I do, is it more global? Is it more domestic? Like, what, who are you, what types of people are you interacting with?

Yeah, just all sorts, all sorts. Um, so I would say primarily, just, I'm not sure if it's because of time zone, um, mostly Canadians, Americans, you know, um, this part of the world, but not exclusively. So like I was saying, we got this gentleman from Mumbai who pops in, you know, let's say once a month or so. And, um, so really, really all over. Um, there's something else I was going to say. Oh, you know, tons of, I've had tons of conversations, not as much people coming to church, though that has happened. Um, people from the Arab world, and that's what I find tremendously exciting is people that would have no opportunity, you know, to hear the gospel are hearing it digitally through this sort of work. Um, yeah, so it's, you know, where is, how many missionaries are we able to get into Saudi Arabia or Iran? I mean, these are definitely places where the church is growing underground, but, um, you know, you're so limited in that regard, right? You know, I mean, to be willing to share your faith in Iran, like, you've really got to do a lot of groundwork there because as soon as you start talking about Jesus, man, you know, are they going to be receptive? Are they going to turn me in, right? I don't have to worry about that. I'm sitting in the comfort of my Michigan apartment. And, um, you know, there's no risk. And so why are we, the church, not more people, you know? That I'm just reminded of Christ's words: the harvest is plentiful, but the workers are few. We need more. We need more people doing work in this space.

Are you seeing like short-term relationships, long-term relationships developing off of this? I mean, future queen of hell, I mean, excuse me, princess and in the palace. At this point, like, a lot of people have developed relationships, and that was a tag team, a team effort, it felt like. But ongoing from there, are these more like one-hit wonders where you get the one shot and hopefully it sticks? Or what does the ongoing ministry look like for you as a meta missionary?

Yeah, you know, Jeff, we talked about this once before, and I tell you, it's been in my mind ever since that day. I've been thinking about, man, what is what are we gonna do as far as discipleship? Like, what are we going to do in terms of not, you know, I remember a sermon by Billy Graham who said you can only come to Christ while the Holy Spirit's drawing you, right? You know, um, and so, you know, we, uh, you know, if we're just speaking to them once and we're not developing that longer relationship, when there's not a discipleship piece, um, then it's all for naught. So it's a mixed bag. I mean, they're definitely pillars of our community that, you know, long-term, you know, relationships have been developed. But I think that's something where, you know, we need to be thinking more about is how can we be more intentional about trying to make sure that this isn't just a one-Sunday novelty because people come, they're like, "Man, that was really nice," and then they never come again. Um, or they get disconnected for whatever reason. So that's definitely something we need to definitely look at is trying to build longer-term relationships with more people. You know, I was speaking at a conference on Fidget on Meadow. It was one of the Exponential things that I did somewhere in the, I don't honestly, and I think it was Chicago. I'm not even really sure what city I was in at this point because they all just kind of ran together. But there was a question from the audience, and we were talking about meta, and this girl, you know, kind of raised their hand, and basically said, "Um, the metaverse is a trigger for me. It's not a safe environment for me to go."

In I guess because she has a history of things in there and you know I didn't, I didn't dig into the what here as much as more just listening to her kind of share that she didn't feel like the metaverse needed to be a place for ministry because she had this history in that space. And it was funny, I just, I kind of listed off some examples even in my own life where, you know, I've got a friend that was very involved in Triple X Church, which does a lot of ministry towards porn and sex workers, kind of type of thing. And one day, one, this is maybe a decade ago, but like the global porn industry conference, you know, Porn Con or whatever it was called, was here in Miami. And my friend called me up and was like, "Hey, why don't you come in and do ministry with us?" And at this, you know, international thing, we're going to go witness and share and whatever. And it was funny, like I'll just be honest, it's my podcast, it's okay. I'm like, "Hey, no, you don't want me anywhere near that because I'm not strong enough to do that. I am not girded in such a way spiritually. I know where my weaknesses are and congratulations, you just nailed my weakness. I will pray for you." This isn't invalidating what's happening in that space and the necessity for it, but there needs to be ministry. It needs to happen. I just, I'm not strong enough right now to go walk in that building and have that conversation with someone. It needs to happen. It's just not me.

And so I'm curious, that's kind of an, "Oh my gosh, there's so many biblical examples of this of where people, you know, went into those hard places and those hard conversations even though, you know, the world so to speak was against them." I'm just curious because it's the wild, wild west. Because VR Chat is VR Chat, how do you gird yourself up? How do you put on that armor of God for the metaverse? Like, how do you shield yourself from that?

To be honest, like, it's really not been that big of a deal, you know, because I don't, there are some people that are attracted to like this digital avatar kind of, like it's not a thing for me. So I mean, if somebody's really, really wearing a provocative avatar, you'll see this all the time in my stream. Like if there's something lewd, I'll, all I call it "crash dummyifying" them, right? So you know, you remember the old crash dummy commercials, you know, back in the 90s, like their seatbelts or whatever? And so when you block someone's avatar in VR Chat, it turns them into this, what I look, I think looks reminds me of the crash dummies from the 90s. So I'll just crash dummy if somebody, I'll actually tell them, "You're sorry, I don't want to see that. You're being crash dummified." And so that's kind of how I handle it. And I don't go into private rooms. You know, all my stuff's public. And so I think there's that piece. But really, it's not, it's not true, it's not a tremendous amount of time. I mean, it is and it isn't, but I don't know. I just, not, it's not something that is very difficult for me because I'm not into that sort of thing. But yeah, no, I mean, I think accountability is really important. And I think, you know, I think that's an important piece.

What does multiplication look like for you? For me, like 2022 is going to be the year of multiplication where it's really trying to emphasize, "Hey, we need more Pastor Brocks in the world. We need more DJ Sodos. We need more Jason Pollings, Jades. We need a lot more Jates." But from a practical standpoint, amazing, talk to me about like, are you mentoring, discipling someone else to go in this space? Are you like, what would it look like? Have you thought about what multiplication could be in the metaverse with some of the things that you're doing?

Yeah, you know, so I have, I have done a little bit of this, but very little of this. You know, one time a gentleman was asking me, he's like, "You know, he comes to me, he said, 'You know, Brock, I want to do what you do. You know, maybe you could come and follow me around and you can just, you know, you can just watch, give me any pointers.'" And so there was a couple times where, you know, I met with him and we discussed that sort of thing, you know, and gave him some pointers and stuff like that. So one thing that is my weakness, and you know, when I was a Lutheran pastor for just shy of ten years, one thing that was always a weakness for me is administration and just keeping all of this organized. And so, you know, I think, "Man, maybe just some better administration on my part would probably be helpful and just trying to get everything lined up and make sure that there's, I don't know, you use the term classes, but something more regular in terms of trying to bring people into equipping them to go out and witness in the digital space." So yeah, I think something a little bit more regimented and consistent there would be helpful on the multiplication piece. But yeah, I think it's a question I'm really asking. And yeah, I'm all ears if there's some recommendations.

So I love it, and that, that's going to be, like I said, that's going to be for just at a personal level, that's going to be an emphasis for me in '22.

You know, there's very few DJ Sotos. Oh, well, I mean, let's, I mean, I could, I've rattled off by four names. There's there's other guys in offshoots like the Daniel Herons in Roblox and other platforms. I know DJ's doing a lot in MMO. Yeah, man, he's doing, yeah, Final Fantasy and what's the other one? Oh man, it's wild. Rust, a Black Desert Online. You know, I've got some friends doing some things there. And so, but you know, even though we've got, I mean, there's probably thirty, forty, fifty people that I know of that are doing something in the metaverse, there's three hundred thousand evangelical churches. And this isn't even getting into some of the mainstream stuff that you're talking about within the Eastern Orthodoxy. And so now there's, oh my gosh, there's so many opportunities for education because we're really in this bleeding edge infancy. Even though, I mean, some, I love DJ, it's been around for six, seven years at this point, but the idea is still in its infancy. And so the more that we can get people excited about this and multiply this idea of the others, even with our listening audience, churches trying it, experimenting, you know, Lakeland Church is up in Wisconsin and they've been testing out this idea of a virtual reality campus, maybe within the past year, really just starting to kick the tires on it. I'm not, I'm steward, my friends up there, Stuart McPherson, I'm not saying he's got it all figured out, but he's been brave enough and I love that church because they have been brave enough to be, "Hey, we don't have it figured out. Let's just give it a shot and see what happens." And I can tell you they're on version two because version one had some pain points, there were some issues that they had to go back and revisit. They did fortunately, they didn't throw the baby out with the bathwater. They kept it around and adapted it for the second take here. But a lot of this is, "How can we multiply these ideas into others?" So that's going to be a huge push for us in '22 and beyond.

Hey, does, and you'll appreciate this because you're, you've been talking, you know, you've got a little theological bend to you in this, and I'm a theology nerd and I love it. You know, I mean, DJ, DJ, I think is allergic to some of that stuff where he just doesn't want to get deep into those conversations, but I love the fact that you're wanting to kind of pull the thread here. So does VR have a theology? Like, when you look at this, how do you theologically line up what you're doing?

At this point, I don't, I don't know if I have a macro theology. There are some really profound themes that I think are very insightful, and I alluded to one earlier. We were talking about how I can make myself look any way that I want, and I think that's deeply theological. You know, because I think really, and this goes to my kind of my Eastern Orthodox theology, the theology of theosis, right? You know, to quote the Apostle Paul, "To be transformed into the same image," right? So Orthodoxy puts a lot of emphasis on being transformed into the image of Christ, and that's again right from Paul. So you know, these, think about it, I mean, there are, I want to say, I want to say even millions of avatars at this point in VR Chat, millions. And think about it, every single user in VR Chat when they picked that avatar, they said, "This is the one. Forget all of those other ones, of all those hundreds of thousands, this is what I wish to look like." And it's really profound what people choose. Now, some people, you know, they click around and they are ten different avatars in one day, but some, more, I think more often, there's a consistent avatar. And so what this avatar says is, "This is what I want to look like." And what a Christian is is one who sees all the avatars of the world and they say, "Jesus, that's what I want to look like." And so I think that's really deeply profound. And I think there are a lot of connections to be made. Why did you choose that avatar, right? I think actually maybe that's a question they need to be asking more in VR Chat because that could bring some interesting things. What is it about that that you say, "Oh, this is beautiful, this is good, this is desirable"? And I think, you know, there's a really great book out. I'm remember I'm forgetting the author. It says "You Are What You Love." JK's known, I can't remember the name. The gentleman's that's escaping me. But it's a very, very good book. "You Are What You Love." And he makes the point that desire is the center of who we are as this human being. So really desiring that particular avatar tells me a lot about who you are if it's indeed true that you are what you love.

Scholar from Wheaton College in Illinois. Let's see if I can pull it up. You, yeah, it's James K.A. Smith. We'll put the link in the show notes to it. "You Are What You Love: The Spiritual Power of Habit." Free with an Audible audiobook account. That's right, that's right. It's, I can't recommend that book enough. I really can't. I think it's really, really, really good. Really, really good book.

Well, I may have found one thing that's more controversial than talking about planting digital-only expressions of church, and it seems to be talking about the future of the metaverse in the church. I've actually gotten maybe ten times more hate mail, at least YouTube comments. A couple of my videos on metaverse got picked up by the YouTube algorithms, which is awesome. I love more audience. And but as a result, instead of the pro audience that I usually find, like the algorithm took me to a lot more con audience. And the hate, you know, came, "Seed of Satan." I've been compared to the seed of Satan. Oh my goodness. Yeah, I've been told that I'm an idiot. That's rich. Yeah, yeah, I mean, "The antichrist will be born in the metaverse." "The metaverse is of Satan because it is man's creation and not God's creation." Think about the radio. Just insert all of those with the radio. "The radio is the seed of Satan. The antichrist will come through the radio." I mean, this is what we would have heard a hundred years ago. Yeah, and it's just, I mean, partially, and maybe there's fear. Maybe there's an opportunity for us to explore with caution, you know, when people, when...

Someone has a conversation with me towards, you know, the mental health of what the virtual reality, what the metaverse is doing. That's the conversation. I'll be honest, that's the conversation that I'm like, you know what, that's a great question. I don't know that we've got enough information yet to answer that question. But that's also the reason why we're working with mental health, um, and at Soul Care, those types of organizations to try to find the answer to that and make sure that we're at the front end of that instead of the back end. But theologically, like when some of these things come out of left field, I, I, you know, I'm just like, and I know DJ gets this all the time. Or he's just like, I don't at this point, I don't even know how to respond to the stuff. Do you get much, um, you know, I don't know, hate mail? It may not be the right word, but negative comments. Like, how do you respond to some of this stuff? You're the seed of Satan and the metaverse is Satan's creation because it's man-made as opposed to being created of God.

I think just about everybody, especially in COVID, changed this. I mean, everybody's involved in some sort of digital space. And I think my model is probably less controversial. My model is an introversity for the virtual world. You know, it's really not that controversial as VR baptisms or VR ecclesiology. Now that's something. Um, I think probably, you know, that's going to be more controversial. Wouldn't be the word, but that's probably the accurate word. Um, so yeah, I haven't received a tremendous amount of negativity just because I think my stance is a more, um, I don't know if you'd use the term conservative, more conservative stance on that. So yeah. But I mean, well, I mean, as far as from the church community, I mean, tons of negativity. An insurmountable or, you know, an indescribable amount of negativity from the VR Chat community. I mean, people just crashing us. And so we have to be, it kind of feels like on the digital sense that we're kind of in that first century church, you know, drawing fish in the sand to try to figure out who else is Christian. Because, you know, it's in VR Chat. Going back to what you were saying, the wild, wild west of VR social platforms. One person with a hacked client can take down an entire church service. Um, and so yeah, I mean, granted, we're not, you know, there's no AK-47s being pointed at anyone. But, um, you know, it's deeply disruptive and there is a tremendous amount of hate. And so I try to, you know, I try to love those who persecute you. Just the other day, actually, just the other day. Was it Sunday? Was it this Sunday? I don't know. Was this under your last Sunday? Gentleman came in, you know, saying all this vulgar stuff. And I said, my brother, my brother, I love you. I love you. Come, come, we come talk with me. Come on, I love you. And you said some more hateful stuff. He's like, my brother, come on, please, I love you. I want to hear from your point of view. Come talk to me. And he left. Um, you know, so there's so much, so much anger in that. And just trying to love your enemy, I think is, um, you know, there's been some days better than others in that regard. I was good. I bit my tongue well on this last one. I was getting kind of annoyed, but I kept the loving tone. So I was proud of myself.

What's next for what you're doing? Is, or do you evaluate strategy? Do you adjust things, or are you just not till talking to you, Jeff? Oh, sorry, I'm messing up all the plans. No, no, you, no, it's great. I tell you what, like, really, like, when we had that conversation the other day, I was like, man, that's a sucker punch. No, not like in a good way. The best way. Like, man, like, boom, like, are we, what are we doing? Like, we, like, this is the thing that can be really powerful. It's almost it's almost a misuse. It's a poor stewardship of the possibility to not be multiplying, to not be growing, to not be trying to reach more people for Christ. I mean, so it's something, you know, I was just doing what I'm doing, right? That was kind of the perspective. But I really think, you know, what I'd pray for, and I don't mean I'm praying for here, is that I need somebody who's better in the administration end. I mean, we've got a couple people in our community, but I'm the talker. I'm the, you know, if you want to call it preacher, I'm the evangelist guy. I, as far as running an organization, that was, that was my, as I said before, a weak suit of mine, even when I was a pastor of the Lutheran church. So yeah, I think I think either partnering with other people or I think that's gonna, that would be helpful. That would be helpful. You need to find yourself a metaverse XP. That's right. XP. Gotta find an executive pass there for that metaverse. Oh, executive pastor. There you go. Okay, yeah, yeah, yeah, sorry. Oh, I'm talking to a gamer. I'm sorry. XP is not experience points. Not experience points. Yeah, I knew it was something. See, here's the thing. I'm so out of the lingo. I'm so out of the circles to some degree. So yeah, no, no, that's good though. That's good. So but you know, and really the heart of that conversation was, you know, what does it look like to even disciple someone in the metaverse? And, you know, knowing, you know, Jade's involvement in this and in Jason Polling, like I'm sure there's some level of discipleship that's happening. Typically, the meta crowd and the MMO crowd is doing that in like a Discord or something like that. Um, you know, I've got a lot of Twitch friends that are using Discord for discipleship. But I could totally see something like that being used, um, you know, even in this meta space and just figuring out, okay, what does this process look like? Not that disciple making is a process, but at least it's a framework to kind of start the conversation and walking with someone, you know, towards that end. Um, but I mean, really, even to the place of, you know, we even started the conversation, Pastor Brock, by talking about how it's better to ask questions and make statements. And so the pastor, the people that were discipling, they don't need that seminary degree. And it's not helpful if they have all the answers off the cuff. As a matter of fact, the more answers off the cuff, probably mean they're less likely to be listened to. Um, the authentic, hey, listen, I'm wrestling with this just like you are. I don't, I don't have all the answers. Can I get back to you on that? Like, the authenticity of that right there, I don't know, actually earns you more points than I would suggest the guy that has that five step, that seven plan, step plan memorized and ready to go.

Well, I think there's a balance. I think you either have that humility that comes with someone without a lot of theological training. Um, and then, you know, people who have more, greater education, greater study, they can kind of be there. There's the opium of being right. Right. And this is something I didn't realize for many, many years, you know, growing up as just the, a lot of times I would say what I'd say, and this continues to be a temptation. I'd say what I'd say for the power of being right. There's a, there's a, there's an intoxication to having the right thing and, you know, striking with rhetorical power. Um, but that's not, that's not gonna, that's not gonna bring anyone closer to Christ, you know, like making feels like somebody feel like they've lost, that they've been embarrassed. Like, that's not, yes, I was really embarrassed today. Let me hear more about your Jesus, right? You know, so I think, I think, I think we can have, I think there is a weakness purely to someone who says, you know, I don't know the answers. Because, you know, I'm reminded of Peter's words, who says, um, you always be prepared to give a reason for the hope that lies within you. And yet do so with gentleness and respect. I think those last two, gentleness and respect, I think the church has been lacking. So I like what you're saying. I think there's a humility. I think there is something profound about the humility. Um, but yeah, I think there's pros and cons on both. Um, so so yeah, but I think we gotta start somewhere, you know? I've said this before. Um, I think you just gotta get your teeth kicked in a couple times too. Like, you just, you gotta embarrass yourself. And do we love Christ enough that being willing to be embarrassed? Because you learn from that. That's where you learn. It's experiential learning. Um, and so yeah, I think that's where, you know, I think, and anybody can start with that, right? You know, just the person right off the bat, just as you said, I think is anybody can start with experiential learning. So how did you get started? Did you just like buy a headset, walk in, and be like, yo, Jesus loves you, and let somebody like rip you? Like, what were those first couple rounds?

Oh, terrifying and getting my teeth kicked in, right? So, you know, um, so I started off, so I didn't, and I've talked to Jade about this. Jade has a little bit. Jade's more long ball. I'm more like, let's get down to brass tacks. And we hung out once in VR Chat and kind of used saw my style. And he's like, man, I don't, so I want to go right into the realm of philosophy of theology. Um, and that's why I asked people, what's the meaning of life, right? Because immediately now, you know, we're in a philosophical or, you know, space. You know, the questions being asked, the big questions are being asked. Um, so I originally started asking people, does anybody want to talk philosophy? This was the best that I could come up with. How do I instantaneously move the conversation into a more philosophical theological bent where I can talk about big things about meaning and stuff like that? So I ask people, what, anybody want to talk philosophy? But that's an incredibly intimidating question, right? Like, how many, how many, you know, how many people out of a hundred would say yes, I'm prepared to talk about philosophy? But if you ask somebody, what's the meaning of life, we all have to give an answer to that. Like, whether we know it or not, when we got up this morning and started walking to the shower and getting ready, we were orienting ourselves towards something meaningful. If there was no meaning, you wouldn't even get up. So, um, so yeah, I think changing that language to, um, what's the meaning of life, I think that really opens the doors to having these conversations. But how did I get started with it? Um, I found a YouTuber by the name of, um, Soren, and um, he was doing these videos and talking to people about divorces and their imminent death and all of this kind of stuff. Is like, man, people are willing to be that vulnerable. And of course, this is the big strength of digital ministries. People are willing to be vulnerable in a way that they're not in a brick and mortar church, um, or often not willing to be this vulnerable. Um, and I was like, man, I gotta be in that space. I gotta be in that. What program is he using? I got to find this program that he's using. So VR Chat. So I was originally just a digital, uh, what we call a desktop user, someone who is just not using a VR headset at all. You can just, you know, use your normal computer. So anybody listening to the podcast can get into VR Chat, start talking to people. Um, but then after being in there a while and seeing, I'm, I'm talking with my hands. Anybody's watching it on the video will see. I like to talk with my hands. And so being able to do that in VR was helpful. Um, but yeah, so that's kind of how I got started. Just, um, you know.

And recognizing, you know, what are good things to say and bad things to say, what is helpful, what's not helpful. I mean, I think that's all experiential learning. And so yeah, I think that's helpful, that you don't need a seminary degree to start experiential learning. That's something I'm taking from this conversation.

So other than desktop clients diving in, how do you recommend somebody get started into this? Any other advice?

Yeah, I mean, of course they could get connected with us. Any advice they need, I'm an open book. You know, shout out to DJ Soto. I love that guy, man. He is a good man. Um, the first time I introduced myself, like, so I was doing my thing in VR Chat and I saw, oh, there's this group called VR Church. What's that about? I want to check them out. So I checked out one of their services. First day up there is like, oh my goodness, there's another pastor here. Come on, man, like you can come preach for us sometime. And I'm like, this is crazy welcoming. And he was like, it wasn't like, oh, you're, you know, you're Johnny come lately, you know, here you are kind of, you know, piggybacking on what I started. Like it was none of that. There was no ego. It was all welcome. It was all love. And I'm really grateful to him for that.

Um, so I'd love to be that for someone else who's starting digital ministry. So if you want to start your own thing and you need some help getting set up, um, you know, I'd love to help that. You know, and try to have that same tone with whoever that DJ had with me. And multiplication just happened. Well, we need to get somebody to actually like, you know, have the conversation with you. But now we're in route. We have a plan in place. So love that.

So hey, Pastor Brock, thank you for jumping on this. By the way, if somebody wanted to find you on social media, like where's the best place for them to access some of the stuff you're doing?

Yeah, so the best place to access me is Twitch.tv slash Pastor Brock VR. So same as you see it here, Pastor Brock VR, Twitch.tv slash Pastor Brock VR. You can get a link to our Discord there. You can get linked to my YouTube channel. You can get a link to everything else. Um, if somebody wants to set up a meeting with me one-on-one, the best thing would be to go to our Discord server and message me there. Um, but yeah, so all of my links, all of my social media stuff is all found right there, Twitch.tv Pastor Brock VR.

Love it. So yeah, we'll put links to all that in the show notes and we'll grab the Discord server as well. But so Pastor Brock, thank you for the time here. Have loved this. Thank you for asking the big questions, man, that I don't have answers to, because that gets me percolating. That gets me thinking about answers to those. So I appreciate it.

No, the metaverse is going to be a mission field of the future, guaranteed. And the greatest attestation, or the greatest proof of that, is look at what Facebook just did. Facebook just changed their name to Meta. And this is not a thing that happens overnight for such a massive global company to pivot. They're, and that's a strong pivot towards the digital VR, AR, XR kind of space, right? I mean, I think that's really saying something, and that should be a wake-up call to a whole lot of churches, a whole lot of Christians, to recognize, man, if Facebook sees the writing on the wall and they're, of course, the owner of the biggest VR company that there is, right, Oculus, for them to pivot in this way, right, like, you know, Dick's Sporting Goods isn't going to change their name to Racquetball Kings unless they really know racquetballs are coming, right? You know, and so Meta is an absolute pivot towards metaverse, which is a VR thing. That's a VR thing. So, you know, everybody's saying, oh man, I wish I got in Bitcoin back in 2009. Like, you want to do that in terms of a spiritual way? You should be thinking digital. You should be thinking VR.

Pastor Brock could not have said it better. So thank you. We'll throw some other links in the show notes to, um, you know, some of the other metaverse type conversations that we've had. Um, and love it. So Pastor Brock, thank you for this. Thank you for the time, and, uh, since we're gonna land the plane, for practice is Jeff with the Church Digital and with Stated Church Planning. Thanks for jumping on the podcast here. We'll see you next time at the show. You have a good day.