EP193: Jason Poling & The Multiplying META Church

Well I started this podcast, this conversation thinking it was going to go one direction and in about 10, 15 minutes into this thing it went a completely different route. And I got to tell you, I'm so excited how it all came out.

Hey, it's Jeff here with the Church Digital Podcast, and I'm really excited to bring to you this conversation centered around Cornerstone VR, Cornerstone Yuba City, Jason Polling's church. Now Jason Polling's been here on the podcast a couple times, talking about his small church, maybe two, three hundred people in physical space that launched a virtual reality campus. Yuba City, up in Northern California's church. We've talked about Jason Polling, J-Po. We recently referred to him in a Pastor Abroad conversation. Evidently when you do ministry in the metaverse they give you really cool nicknames. Except, you know, Jade, because Jade's name is literally Jade. Another conversation.

Hey, so with this conversation centered around today with the podcast, here's the reason we started the conversation with the podcast. Jason Polling was telling me about how the physical church in Yuba City, Northern Cal, and the virtual reality church, which is scattered all across the country, the planet, they were meeting together. The virtual reality people were traveling IRL, in real life, to where the church was in Northern Cal, and they were doing like this physical meetup involving physical and avatar meta church members together. And they called it Forever Family. And what an incredible principle. I love this. Let's have a podcast.

So we've literally got like five people from the church in this podcast conversation. But some of the stuff that came out of this: a baptism in virtual reality, getting people literally sending people on mission into other platforms than where the church is, activating them to be on mission in the metaverse, activating them to be on mission where they live physically, even though it's on the other side of the country. A church in California is getting someone living on a mission in Atlanta, Georgia through a pair of goggles that they bought through, I don't know, Amazon or whatever. Like, this is incredible. The power of a physical church, a small church, two, three hundred people, adapting and utilizing that power to get people on mission in another time zone. Crazy, crazy stuff.

And it's like, okay, how can we have both conversations? And so I gotta tell you up front, conversation goes long. You're gonna just get it because it's awesome. Had some tech issues and we've adjusted to a new platform called Riverside. Riverside, I love. Accepting this conversation, we did have a number of tech issues centered around that. Everybody fails every once in a while, and I've already told Riverside they failed on this one. And so we made it as best as we could. If you're watching on YouTube, some of the video may be janky. Hopefully audio they were able to clean up in such a way. But this is a solid conversation about the power of a physical church that really wants to utilize and capitalize the metaverse space.

So here's what we're doing for this conversation. We are bringing in Pastor Jay Poe, Jason Polling, no stranger to the podcast, as well as, oh, I'm just gonna utilize their names on Discord. We're bringing in Goose, Nicole, the Angel, Nicole White Seven, and a guy named Stuart. All those creative names in Stuart, but it's awesome. This is a great podcast. We're bringing in all these people centered around Cornerstone and some of the things that they are doing in physical space as well as virtual reality in a conversation that I'm simply calling here the Multiplying Meta Church.

Okay, everybody, here you go.

Hey Jason, why don't we start off with you, man? Tell us a little bit about who you are and what your story is with Cornerstone.

Yeah, so I came to Cornerstone about four years ago. So we're out in Northern California, you have a small little EFCA church, and God's been blessing it. It's been growing. It's been awesome. So yeah, just came out here, and then we started the, what, almost two years ago now, Nicole? I think we started probably about two years ago.

Yeah, a year and a half.

Year and a half. Well, it was April of 2020, so whatever that is. Yeah, a year and a half. Started the church in the metaverse. So that was, yeah, that's how we got started, and it's been amazing, awesome, roller coaster, excitement, since then. God's been blessing us, and these guys here in the, and the call, this is some of the awesome blessings, you know, that God has bestowed upon us. It's awesome.

And evidently Nicole is your detailed person because you don't even know April 2020. And let's be honest, if you know Nicole, she is the detailed person here. So Nicole, you know, tell us a little bit about your story and how you kind of fit in with this.

Um, so I've been attending Cornerstone for a little over four years. Um, and I came on staff in July of 2020, so smack dab in the middle of the pandemic. Um, then it's been a bit of a wild ride since, but I'm still here, love it. Nobody's nobody's stolen her away from Jason quite yet.

No, I will, I will, I will, I will turn Godfather on you if anybody tries to take her. It is my favorite thing to threaten to leave and just watch his face go pale and kind of have the heart attack look just once a week or so. It's it's it brings me joy. We're working a cup of coffee each week. I'll leave unless you bring me coffee. You get something out of the other than just like the sheer shock on his face.

Awesome. And like Jason said, we got, we got a ton of guests on on the line here. It's supposed to be a lot of fun. Michael, just because you're a friend that I've known here from South Florida, why don't you go next?

Yeah, so I am Michael Useda Venice. Uh, most of the metaverse knows me as Pastor Goose. And I am the metaverse pastor at Cornerstone. I uh, entered ministry in 2017 after running my own law firm for about 14 years. Also uh, made video games, um, a small video game studio. And so um, when uh, Pastor Jason and I started talking, I met him through actually through a conference that Stadia had put on. Um, a lot of things had lined up between the pastoral ministry and um, again, making video games, the metaverse, and so um, you know, eventually the Lord revealed that the metaverse was the place that that he wanted me, and so I joined Cornerstone in uh, May of this past year and have been loving, has just been loving every minute of it uh, since I joined.

That's cool. I didn't realize we were the matchmaker, but between you two, one of the innovation meetups or something. I I love that. Did I get a finder's fee? Did I get commission off of that? We totally didn't negotiate that correctly. You're now, yeah, you're the eHarmony of uh, of the metaverse, man. We gotta gotta get, get with my Nicole, make a note. I gotta get with with my uh, my contract people too. We gotta fix that.

Awesome. All over that. Uh, Angel, uh, go next here. A little bit, where do you fit into this whole um, Cornerstone Church thing?

Well, my name is Angel. I'm in Atlanta, Georgia. I'm a software engineer and a multi-disciplinary designer. So I'm just obsessed with art and code. That's my thing. I found Cornerstone Church stumbling around an Alt Space uh, over a year ago and never left. And now I'm a small group leader, which is insane in in VR, which is really cool in the metaverse. And I'm a part of this Forever Family. And yeah, they haven't kicked me out yet.

So Angel, literally in this equation, I mean, everybody else is physical, and you got Michael who lives on the other side of the country who's the metaverse pastor, but you're literally one of these people that found the church in Alt VR in the metaverse and are now attending and actively leading groups in the church. So that's virtual reality. That's that's fascinating.

Stewart, next up, actually last up, I think if the math is right here. Stewart, tell us where do you fit into this?

Uh, my name is Stuart Freeman. I live in North Carolina. Um, and I've been with Cornerstone for about a year now. Um, it was at my lowest and found Cornerstone, and Jason discipled me through becoming a new believer. And the Lord actually led me to build a church within the VR Chat platform. And so I'm the director of the VR Chat campus.

Wow. Okay, so the majority of the audience has no idea what VR Chat is, but I just want to acknowledge up front, wow, like, I mean, that's the wild, wild west of metaverse. And so you're going in uh, into some some dark areas, my friend, with with the gospel when you're when you're doing that. So mad respect right off the top.

And there's probably five separate podcasts I want to have with each of you digging in some conversations down the road because this is fascinating. But what I really want to focus on here is this idea of of why meta, um, and then some of the challenges we hear. Not physical meta or not metaphysical, but y'all brought the two together. And just even looking at my little chart here on my screen, there's three, four different states that are involved. You got Yuba City in California, uh, Michael's in in Florida, Angel, you were in Georgia, and uh, in Carolina's uh, on the Stuart side. Like, so that's a broad spread, which is fascinating.

And so let's let's just start with this. Jason, you've been on the podcast uh, several times. We we've we've had John a little bit talking about this. We'll put links in the show notes to go back to those older episodes if you want. Um, why be the church in the metaverse? Why, why, why even get into this now? There's success. I'm literally seeing it on the screen, and so there's a win in this equation. But you know, you started this thing April 2020, right after COVID. Um, I know you were wrestling with this stuff in 2019 like, what what was the the catalyst that really got you started here thinking about this?

Yeah, just Matthew 9. Just wanting to get out in the harvest field. That's where people are at. A lot of people are not, you know, coming to brick and mortar IRL churches. I'm an IRL pastor as well, and I love it, enjoy it, thankful for my flock. But we do see people come to Christ. We just people come through our doors and get baptized. It's been awesome. But in terms of reaching like the 90 out there, and we've discovered in our local area for sure, and I'm guessing that applies a lot of places, 90 of people are not really, you know, churched or walking with Christ. And so we really just wanted to get out there where people were. And uh, they are out in the metaverse. They're out there gaming. They're out there on social chat platforms. They're out there in the virtual reality metaverse worlds. Uh, they are out there in droves, and it's increasing, increasing more and more. And of course, now, you know, the Meta, uh, Zuckerberg's announcement, it's just gonna keep exploding. And so that is where people are at. That's where they congregate. Those are the new tribes that we're trying to reach. And as we've been doing that, we're realizing people really out there have very little awareness of who Jesus is, of what Christianity even is. Um, there are church people there, but there are a lot, especially in VR Chat, there are a lot of people that don't know Christ. So that's why, that's why we did it. We just wanted people. We just want to go and reach those that are without hope and far from God and need need the gospel. That was it.

Yeah, I love that. Zuckerberg spending so much money on on the metaverse right now, and the stuff he's talking about with that announcement, you know, the metaverse is going to be a community. It already is a community. And Zuckerberg is investing arguably billions into making sure that Meta reinforces that it will continue and has the tools to be a community. You know, the real challenge is is like as a church, do we do we see it as a community worthy of a church because the world is investing and organizations, corporations are investing in it? It's just whether or not churches will.

Do and it's fascinating to me that the challenge that churches are really missing by not connecting with people in the metaverse. And so within this podcast, you know, I see angels shaking your head up and down agreeing. And so it's, I really want to investigate a little bit here.

Angel Stewart, both of you connected with this church, with Cornerstone, via virtual reality. Like you, and you live literally on the opposite side of the country, three time zones away from where this church is, but you're calling it home. Um, Angel, I would love to maybe just start a little bit with you. Like, um, were you looking for a church in virtual reality? Were you a church in physical space before? Like, if I can just pry here a little bit, tell me a little bit about yourself and how you got connected to the church.

Well, first I think I should establish I think others on the call will agree that the East Coast, our time zone is the correct one. Everyone else is just, you know, in reference to ours. So as long as we put that out there, I'm just kidding.

Oh no, I just mess with them all the time. I think, um, you know, the pandemic really was challenging for me. Um, up until that point I was trying to really feel locked in and a part of the community of the in-person church that I won't say. Um, that I was trying to fill a part of up until that month, that March month in 2020. And, um, you know, I was just struggling and having this a real relationship where I'm being pushed by my brothers and sisters in Christ. And so, uh, again, I just kind of just stumbled in there. I wasn't really looking for it. But I will say this, the church I was going to, the sermons made me feel good, you know, warm and fuzzy, driving home from church and not really better or like there was some growth or different an improvement from what I was dealing with. And when I came into, I just stumbled in. No legs, because in all space you have no legs, just pop in places. And I heard Pastor Jason preaching his sermons. Um, it's not that they make me feel good. They ended up making me feel better because it led to me really looking at the word, um, and looking at what Jesus said and applying it to my life and feeling that conviction that I needed to really grow. So long story short, I really feel like, um, I want to be a part of a church that I feel better at and I'm growing. And he knows he's good at pushing. I have a good pressure to grow and become a small group leader amongst other ways I'm able to help. And I'm just, I'm grateful to be used.

I love that. What a great testimony of using virtual reality to challenge someone to be better. And so love that, Stuart. What's your story, man? How were you looking for a church in virtual reality? What did it first look like when you connected with them?

Surprisingly, a few years ago I actually saw a YouTube video of someone that was at the VR church campus that DJ does. Um, and so I jumped at my lowest point. I jumped into VR Chat and I really spent a lot of time there. Um, a lot of people go to VR Chat and they just, they're depressed, they're lonely, they just need somebody to talk to. Um, and I was one of those people. And so I tried out the VR Chat, uh, campus that I was talking about that I saw on YouTube, but it didn't really work for me. Um, people would come in and they would crash the whole server and they'd do it multiple times. And, uh, they mentioned they had a sister church called Cornerstone and, uh, you know, the people could go and try it out. And, uh, so I downloaded AllSpace and, uh, haven't looked back since.

That's awesome. And how long ago was that, Stuart? How long have you been in this in the space?

About a year. Um, I actually got baptized through Cornerstone, uh, November of last year.

Awesome. Okay, so let's have that conversation in virtual reality. I was about to say a virtual reality. And so you now, uh, if any hate mail for the following conversation, please send it to djsoto at vrchurch.org. Okay, so now that that's out of the way, uh, Stewart, talk to me about what did, what is virtual reality baptism? What does that even mean? What is that? What does that look like?

Um, it's powerful. Um, it's, uh, it was ready for me to take that step. I was ready for that. Um, Jason made it clear that was sort of the next step I needed to take to get the ball rolling. Um, and, uh, it's just going under a pool, submerging yourself in the water symbolically. And just, weep was now like, was that done in, in a church setting in virtual reality? Were people there that were witnessing? Like, talk to me a little bit, maybe about what, what that day, what that experience looked like? What in virtual reality, I'm assuming in AllSpace, so describe it a little bit for me if you don't mind?

Yeah, um, we actually had a sermon and then, uh, we went sort of in the back and there was a little pool that they had set up. And, uh, everybody sort of gathered around and they recorded it. And, uh, and they read off my, uh, testimony. And then, yeah, very cool. It's awesome. And so like you as a person, I'm looking at your physical representation. I don't get like all meta here, but like you, you consider yourself baptized when you went through the VR baptism?

I do. Um, I, I still have plans to be baptized in my IRL church. Um, and we do, we do push for that to also be baptized in the IRL church. But it was, yeah, it was amazing.

Very cool. Who, who did the, uh, who did the baptism? Who was the baptizer in this?

Jason did.

Jason. Awesome. How many, I, I totally don't want to get stuck here. I'm just totally curious. How many baptisms have you guys done in in virtual reality in VR?

Probably ten, twelve, fifteen. I don't, ten to twelve.

Yeah, somewhere in there.

Yeah, Nicole, the detailed person saves the day. Thank you for that. And Jed, Jason, you know, he's not Southern Baptist, so the answer wasn't sixty-seven. It was one hundred.

Yeah, exactly. Get it, get as high as possible.

Awesome. Hey, Michael, like you're so, you were a lawyer. Um, you know, I knew you down here in South Florida. You were a CEO or like a, like an operations type of guy or a bit, you know, business guy with the church previous. And now you're pastor of meta. What does it mean even to like pastor people? I mean, even meta is a controversial enough word. And now you're, you may be the only guy on the planet that's pastor of meta. I don't know that there's a lot of others out there like, what, what does that look like pastoring people like Stuart, like Angel, in the metaverse?

Uh, it's incredible. Yeah, and you know, I mean, maybe I have the title, but there's, there's a lot of us. Um, and really a lot of that have already been there, um, well before me, have been doing it just because, just as Jason said, just because the people are there, they're our souls, and we need to be there. And so title or not, there's been quite a few people actually doing it, having the pastor's heart for the people in the metaverse, which is awesome. Um, yeah, going from operations to, um, to pastoring the people, it's, it's been incredible. I mean, that's where my heart always was. Um, and which is another reason why it was just such a natural fit for Cornerstone when I learned what the expectation was. I was just like, yeah, let's go. Send me. Um, seeing and interacting and pastoring, um, guys, Stewart and Angel and so many other people. Um, it's interesting. And there's some, some of what, you know, I mean, I've got my MDiv. I got all the, I got all the, I know what all the books say about all this kind of stuff. But then as we know, the books only get you so far. And then there's also no books for some of this. There's never been any books written on quite a bit of this. And so, um, you know, how to manage people who, it's very much flipped. I mean, this is the way that I would explain it. It's very much flipped in terms of what people are willing to discuss with you. So if you're at an IRL church in the lobby and you're asking someone how they're, you know, how they're doing or what, if you just meet somebody, they're willing to tell you all of their basic information. But very rarely are you going to get what's really going on in the surface. Um, in the metaverse, it is exactly flipped. I have met countless number of men and women who refuse to tell me their real name, where they live, what country they live in. But within minutes, they will tell me every piece of their deepest, darkest secrets. I mean, many times I have people say, "I have only told a few people in my life this," but and then they just tell me all this stuff and looking for someone to talk to. And so that aspect of it is absolutely amazing because it's access to people that is unprecedented in such a short amount of time. The challenge, of course, is trying to maintain the relationships, trying to build the relationships so that you can go further and, and like, actually engage in true discipleship. So that's been, on the one hand, it's great to be able to make such rapid progress to a point. But there is this wall that we're like trying to punch through to get people to really kind of like engage on a deeper level, on a more consistent level.

That's powerful. What is it like? And I'll just open this up for it for anybody, really. Um, because Michael, you're starting to pull the thread. You know, people are far more transparent. "I haven't told anybody this, but because you're on the other side of the planet and you're not sitting next to me, I feel that I can share stuff with you because this is a safe environment." Which is funny because virtual reality feels safe, digital feels safe, more safe than IRL. What is relationships look like within the church? Angel, you walk into some place, you bounce into some place, you hover into some place for the first time. Um, like how difficult was it for you to connect? Stuart, how long did it take for you to feel comfortable enough? Because you were recommended from another church that you didn't even know anybody in the space. And so what were these? Was the church welcoming? Was it a solid experience? Did you have to be patient like a physical church, IRL, where you have to go several times before you can really connect? And even beyond that, what are these relationships like in the metaverse? Is this real? Is this lasting? Give me a little bit here on the relationships of Cornerstone VR.

I think the way the platform's set up, where first and foremost you get to set your appearance as you want, so some people to this day are still green to me. I don't know what they look like, and I don't need to, you know, um, because I know that's my friend and I pray with them. And I, I know God knows about, you know, you know, Bender, whatever his username is. And he knows that I believe God has an AllSpace account. He has access to all that. So he knows, he knows all that. Um, but I think one of one of the coolest things about is is just how organic it is, us coming together like this. Because an IRL, I just graduated college not too long ago, so I was trying to find IRL church. And there's this kind of like strong feeling to go to a church for people like you. These people go to this church and have this denomination, do this and that. And what I like about AllSpace is that anybody, literally, you'll hear, you'll hear different accents reading the word of God that is so emotional for me, like hearing people from all over the world, young, old, male or female, reading Scripture together. So I just love how organic it is. There's no kind of forced diversity or anything. It's just this natural, like Jesus is the common denominator of what brings people together. And when we come together like that, we'll find we're a lot more like, when we start sharing our experiences, especially like in my small group, which has been a blessing and an honor to be a part of.

To hear people literally in Scotland right, um, having saying things and having experiences that like are like mine, I thought I was the only person, you know, because First Peter 5 tells us, you know, that we're family believers all over the world dealing with the same kind of struggles, but the interview is telling me otherwise. So anyways, I feel like when I come into these spaces and I'm able to come to my passes with what's going on and have Nicole just pray with me after service, I just think that because it's so spiritual and it's about Jesus, you're able just to like really let go in a way that I haven't yet really found an IRL to match. Um, so that's just my personal experience. Stuart, how about you? What would have been some of your experiences with it? You mentioned, uh, you know, how long it could take to sort of get that relationship kind of thing. When it comes to relationship with the church, it does take time. Um, to feel as though it's a church home, something we've really found out. Um, and even my own personal experience is, is when you're in that dark stage and you try and seek out a church in the metaverse for someone to talk to, um, you're just so ready and you're so desperate for that talking. Um, so we've actually found out that uh, we do Q&A at the end of the sermons that we do, and we found that uh, that really helps a lot because people desperately need someone to uh, to sort of show them where there's hope because they don't have it anymore.

Jason, as you're as you're pastoring, you know, this group, and and Michael as well here in a little bit, like, is is pastoring somebody different in in the metaverse? Is is it different? Like, is pastoring people in the metaverse different? Are you doing things in a different way? Are you sensing or feeling it takes? It's harder to to connect with someone? Is it easier to connect with someone? Like, give me an apples to oranges comparison here.

Yeah, you know, it's funny because last night I was doing, we do this biblical counseling training about twenty some people that every Tuesday night we're training them on how to help people, soul care stuff, and somebody asked that, like, doing counseling in, so I've done counseling in the metaverse as well as IRL, and they're like, was it, is it harder? I mean, is it is it easier, better, or whatever? So they asked a similar question, and I was like, had to think about it because I haven't really noticed that much of a difference. And I, they said, if you're, so if I'm on Zoom or Discord, I can see them, so that's helpful. But they say, what about when you're counseling in VR? You can't see them. You can't see their facial expressions as much. And I was like, really? I don't know how the Spirit of God does it, but somehow there's this deep connection. And yes, uh, if they have uh, their headset on, there's movement with their hands and you can see some of that nonverbal expression. Um, but you know, I would imagine, like, if you're, can a blind person in IRL give counsel to another person without seeing nonverbals? Absolutely. And so I think you might say, oh, there's a deficiency there and being able to really pastor or connect or counsel people that you can't see, but there's really not. There's something deeply, it's the Spirit of God. There's something connects you, and I find I find myself very bonded to people that I can't even see. I just, you can hear the, and you can hear the voice. I mean, that's critical, right? Uh, the tone. But you know what, as I say that, I'm verbally processing, even on Discord, which is a real famous chat app that we use quite heavily for connecting people. A lot of it is text driven, and actually there's a lot of times where there's a depth, a robust connection that's forged even through typing things out to each other about the depths of their heart. So yeah, I mean, it's just a matter of perspective, I guess. Some people like, oh, I can't do that. I can't really connect with somebody through text. I can't connect somebody if I can't see them. Not my experience. I feel like I've connected just as deeply with my my brothers and sisters in the metaverse as I have in IRL. So I don't know how to explain. Maybe Michael's, Michael's a lot smarter than that. He's probably got a better philosophical version of why that is. But somehow the Spirit of God works in that way. Michael, what do you think?

Yeah, it, it, I think it, it, there are differences. Um, some could be seen and in some moments maybe weaker than being IRL. Um, in other ways, there is, there is, there are strengths. Just as I said, just just flat out getting people to open up quicker is is a strength. And so I think what we're going to end up finding is that we will have a better idea as we go through this and and do it and learn and see what works and see what doesn't work. I think we're gonna, I think we're gonna have um, we're gonna develop really good insight into when someone should be transitioned to IRL for whatever it may be. And and then I actually think that there, there's going to be times when we have IRL people that we may say, listen, this is going to go far smoother if we just pop headsets on, even though we could the IRL, this, there are reasons why. I mean, just once all of this plays out and we see the what works and what doesn't, the the strengths and the weaknesses, I I think people are going to be surprised. And and for the for the critics uh, who haven't been in it, once they see it, it it just changes everything. And we've seen that a few, more than a few times. Um, and and you know, the whole idea is pressing into some some like deeply held traditions. But I think when those traditions get pressed into, I think we may find out they're actually idols and not actually um, worth holding on to.

Preach it. Yeah, that you're right. He is smarter than the rest of us. He is. He's a smart kid. We're talking about a gray space here, and it's funny, like, even even myself, I try to, I live in a world of labels, you know? We say fidget church because that's where physical and digital come together. And so physical church, understanding digital ministry, we talk about digital only church plants, you know, and that's Angela Craig, Pursue Church, live at some level, even what DJ Soto is doing in the metaverse, that's this digital only expression. Michael, you're talking about bringing somebody from meta into IRL. Stewart's talking about being baptized in meta but also the importance of being baptized IRL as well. And it's, I'm confused because we're working so hard to categorize people separately, but uh, what Cornerstone, Cornerstone's doing is really finding this like blended gray area where it it lives together. Um, is is it, and I'm legitimately asking this question, is it important to to keep meta meta and IRL IRL? Or why have you guys worked so hard as an organization to try to bring those two together?

I feel like it's important that it stays like we blend it. People aren't labels and categories, and people in real life have the same struggles as people in VR. And when they can come together and counsel each other and be friends with each other, even though we're on opposite sides of the country, um, it's powerful. It it gets you out of your little bubble, your little Christian culture where you are, and it helps you, like, like Angel is talking about, see people in Scotland and the UK, and we've had people in China and even areas of Africa and stuff come in and and share like their journey and how similar it is, also how different it is. But there's a lot of connections, and you can see how the family of God is worldwide. It's not just our local churches, and it's not just our spot in the metaverse either. It's everywhere, and we can connect just as well physically in real life, digitally, and when you put it together, I think it's even more powerful.

Talk to me a little bit here about, you got everybody together. What, why, you know, what what was that like getting the the physical, the the virtual, what were some of those experiences like coming together physically?

I liked it. I mean, to be honest, I had never been outside of the East Coast, really, like the Southeast of our country. So going all the way to the West Coast and California just seems a little crazy right now. I'm just be honest with you. I was like, I'm about to go over here right now. Um, when I say it, and I still consider it this way to be like a second home, the way that Pastor Taunted his family and they just got their new home opened up to me. In no way felt like an outsider. Um, there's this twofold where it's like some people like see me really like as a brave person to go and make that trip. My mess, I never flown by myself. That was like my second time on a plane in my life. Um, to go to the other side of the country, meet these people that met in VR, right? And then for them to be so open and welcoming to me, it really is one church. It's multiple campuses, and one church. And I really love how, you know, I was able to talk about the sermons with some people. We did seven weeks of small group leadership training, and they brought a GoPro to like a person who volunteers house each week. And the people in that class were not in VR, so I got to bond for like seven weeks with people who strictly like live in Yuba City and only go to the in-person church. So when I came in person, it was like, hey, and I never met them in VR, anything, just through the Discord class. And I mean, I already knew people's mannerisms, and you know, people didn't realize how short I am, but people are not ready for that. But it was just really like warm and accepting. And my parents are a really big girl. Like, they're like, about to go over here, let me see. So my mom, it scares me that she even has a Twitch account. She gets on the Twitch and she watches Pastor Jason, and hopefully next year, I don't know how we're gonna do it, we're gonna do it. I would love to bring my mom as well. So the whole family, you're gonna get more people coming from Atlanta. I guarantee. But um, they just made me feel really welcome. And you know, you know, it can only be God.

I had uh, I had already been out to Yuba City before that, and so uh, that, so I'd come out in June to preach. And um, I was unprepared for that, for the reception that I received. Um, the the the people of Cornerstone, when you say family, it, they mean it. Like, I showed up and it felt like I was seeing family that I hadn't seen in a long time, like just universally. And so when we started planning this and people started saying, yeah, that we're coming, I was just so excited for them because I knew what they were gonna be experiencing. And it was just, it was just to be perfect. It was just going to be exactly the thing that would that would like put the exclamation point on what we talk about, which is we are a family. If you're in VR, if you're in Atlanta or North Carolina or Wales or wherever, like you are part of the family, and we care for you, we love you. Like, we say that and we mean it. And the people of Cornerstone Church say it and they mean it. And so everybody showing up, I mean, I, it was, it really was awesome. And and um, then also just getting to to to spend time with people that I spend so much time with online. And um, and I mean, you know, like Angel and uh, and one of our one of our people from Wales designed that shirt. Like, she put her time and creative effort along with our friend Rob into creating that amazing shirt, which which I kind of like started, and then and then she was like, okay, you go away now. We're gonna come back with something. And just like, which is perfect. Like, that those are the kind of people that we have. Like, Stewart is the same way with VR Chat, where I'm like always like trying to get in there meddling, and he's like, I got it. Like, or he doesn't know something, I'm like, I can help. He's like, I got it. And he comes back to it. So we have such.

Driven motivated people that care, and so getting everybody together in person and having that synergy, it was awesome. Like, I just, it was super important to have that in focus, and yeah, it was just great. And the shared trials that you experience when you go to San Francisco and you're stranded on the side of the road with no buses that were supposed to be there for two hours, you know, together you bond together in those kinds of very hard hardship moments, which culminated in a drive back from San Francisco with me in the driver's seat, Stuart in the passenger seat, with the two of us just dreaming all of what we're about to do in VR Chat with Jason sleeping in the back.

Hey, so let me pull that thread because I was not prepared for this part of the conversation, but what I'm understanding, Stuart, you had had a dream for wanting to do something in VR Chat. Michael, to your own admission, you don't necessarily understand VR Chat as well as maybe some of the other platforms, and so you're empowering Stuart to really get into VR Chat. Am I reading the situation right?

Right now it's a little slippery. The metaverse is a little slippery between church planning and missions because it's like a hundred percent both. It's not half and half. It's just like one hundred both, and that's a whole other conversation. But if you're thinking about missions and bringing the gospel with the hopes of raising up natives to be the ones who really own it and then bring the gospel to others, Stewart is the native. I mean, Stuart knows VR Chat intimately, and all of the time Jason and I are in there and we're thinking one thing, and Stuart's like, "That's not gonna work," because he knows it. And so he basically, we've gotten to the point where we're like, "Look, what do we do?" And he is an amazing voice in helping us see what the people of VR Chat are seeing. So I feel absolutely blessed to be, I mean, we consider ourselves literally on the tip of the spear with VR Chat as far as ministry goes because we've got a native who can explain to us what we should be doing, and it's super exciting.

That is, this is an incredible moment. I would say, you know, and once again, I wasn't expecting this. And audience, if you don't know VR Chat, it's the wild, wild west of the VR platforms. So it's open, it's crazy. There's not as much parental guidelines and protections and things like that within the platform. So if you're going into that environment, you know, I mean, you're going to see stuff. It's going to be weird. It's going to be crazy. And so I know like some of the churches in that space, they're not wanting to go in there because they're afraid of what's in there. So Stewart, you know, knowing that environment and being comfortable with it, wanting to be the missionary, the digital missionary, the meta missionary in the situation, even to the point of establishing what the church should be like, first off, that's an awesome call. And so, Stuart, oh, once again, I wasn't expecting this conversation, but knowing what I do, like, I really salute you right now for wanting to be the light of Jesus in that platform. And at the same time, holy crap, Cornerstone, you guys are willing to let Stuart go into this environment and you're empowering him. And what I love, Michael, with what you just said, is we're not telling the dude what to do. As a matter of fact, we're listening to him. And when we tell Stuart what we think is going to work, Stuart's like, "No, that's the completely wrong approach." And instead of telling Stuart you're wrong, you're actually listening to him and willing to let him give a shot into it. Like, the number of roles that you just broke in physical church environments is probably forty-seven. Like, churches don't do that in physical space, but it's remarkable to me, you know. Up front, I want to call this out. Like, your multiplication strategy is strong within virtual reality, and we're seeing it. I'm seeing it in two different situations. The second I'll explore in a second. One, you've got Stewart who's like, "Hey, I'm really passionate about this platform in this area," and you as a church are perfectly fine. You know, Stuart, I'm hoping they're speaking into your life spiritually. I'm hoping they're discipling and girding you with the strength that you need to go into this platform and really be the light of the world within the equivalent of the wild, wild west of the virtual reality platforms. So first off, if they're doing that, more power to them. Stuart, what are you thinking?

Absolutely. The way that God sort of laid that out, the groundwork was there before the idea was even present. It was definitely a God-driven plan for this all to happen, and He's just made the footwork so easy. I'm beyond grateful that He's using me as a vessel for it. I think it's been the highlight of my ministry. Well, there's been so many highlights, so, you know, but this has been so awesome. I can't even describe to you in words.

Guy from the outside, in a completely separate time zone, yeah, that this is a remarkable moment. And I'm gonna, Stuart, I'm gonna be praying for you. I want to see how things progress, and I'm going to be cheering you on. I don't do VR Chat. That being said, I love the fact that you are, and heading into that, the other thing that is remarkable to me, and I want to pull this thread a little bit, Angel, you made the comment that you're going to bring a whole bunch of Atlanta people to the next whatever Forever Family thing. So what that tells me is that your experience in the metaverse is affecting who you are in real life because I'm assuming you live in Atlanta. I would love to understand that a little bit because like VR is metaphysical as physical. They don't interact, but you're telling me that you want to get people excited about the stuff that you're learning and doing in meta and try to get them connected in meta or physical. Do you have some stories that you will want to share on that? What that could look like?

It's stuff only God could have put together. One thing I want to say is, you know, the reason I want to bring them in is not because it's in VR and that's cool and I help with the art and things like that. I want to show them it's for the gospel. And I think like that's why I'm there. I mean, VR is cool, like, don't get me wrong. Like, I love coding and art, but I'm there because the change that happened within me, and I have so many people around me that, you know, I used to be very respectful of how people live their lives, whatever, and I still have like that respect, but I also, like, I was just studying today about how we are to, if you see a brother or sister in sin, you're supposed to restore them lovingly. Like, we're supposed to restore them in a way. And over the past year, Cornerstone's very adamant about planting, even if it's just one person this year. And I'm very much so like, you know, you do your thing, I do my thing, but you're encouraged to spread it to people around you. And so I share this journey with the people around me. So I've been praying for two people in particular who I'm going to send this to. So I'm talking about you. And both of them individually came to me wanting to basically be discipled or have somebody to walk with them and be a sister of Christ to them. And I just didn't expect it. So it's come with a little bit of anxiety I'm working through with Pastor Jason. Just talked about yesterday, where basically God is wanting to use me and call me to things, but I have anxiety of failing and not doing it right. So I'm dealing with that, but what's beautiful is that this church, I'm taught that it's not me, it's what God's doing. So I'm just bringing them with me. Come to church with me. I have friends that have attended. I'm good, thank you. I'm good. I have people that I've come to on Twitch, on YouTube, watched it. I have people that I'm basically gonna bring with me in my luggage if I have to, to California next time. It's just that community. So I also got to meet just a few weeks ago someone from my small group. They were coming for the Panthers game that we lost, but we won the Braves. They won the little World Series thing. So I hate on doors off cause Pastor Jason's sermon on Sunday had a lot of Georgia hate, and I tried it. I had some, I had some Braves hate in my sermon, but the important thing, I think it's really important that like we understand we have something in common with people across the world. So yeah, I have a lot of stories that I'm not going to ramble on about, but you'll see them here next time we do this next year.

I love that. Up, I want to ask this follow-up. So the people you're talking to about digital, about meta church, about Cornerstone, so you're experiencing church in virtual reality and you're talking to your friends about it. Do they think it's weird?

Yeah, at first. I mean, I have a group of friends that did not think it was weird, which I thought was weird, but they didn't think it was weird. But they know I've been doing this kind of like video game development and stuff like that in college. Shout out to the Aurora Game Development Club at Georgia Southern. But I think they always knew I was artsy and stuff. They're really interested, but some people think it's weird. Some people think it's, they might think it's a cult or something. You're going across the country. You've never met these people. What do you mean you talk to them every week and you have a small group? Is this a game that you're playing? Like, someone asked me that last week. Is that a game? Like, no, it's real people.

So to answer your question, yes, some people. And then you have, I think Nicole hit a really important point about getting out of that Christian bubble in the metaverse and not, we shall all be out of that bubble. We should all be looking at God biblically and not adding to it or subtracting from the Word and being open-minded about how we can spread the gospel.

So, Jeff, it is weird. Like, I'm a hardcore gamer, game developer. I'm in there, and there are moments you're like, "This is bizarre." Like, that happens. But for me, what cemented it early on, and I use this example all the time, was in VR Chat, one of the first weeks I'm there, and I'm sitting there delivering the gospel to four Mandalorians and Paul Blart Mall Cop. And I'm like, I have a picture of it. I'm like, "What is going on?" And, you know, I'm just going, and I'm just like acknowledging like this is weird. But when I got done, one of the guys that was his avatar was a Mandalorian. He stopped me and he said, "Hey, will you pray for me? I have, my doctor said that I have a heart condition that is probably terminal, and I was just wondering if you'd pray for me." And at that point, like, it all just stripped away. Like, you know, all of it just goes away, and you're like, "That's a soul." And it's like no different than if I was on the phone with him right now. And if I was on the phone with him, nobody would think it was weird. And that's what it is. And so it is on its face, but it's not when you get down to the fact that it is just souls. And so when you talked about what's the difference in pastoring, it's not. If you care about the lost sheep and the flock, it's not actually different.

And one last thing, can you tell the story about how you do it in Pop One? What happened? Can you please say that? One of the biggest misconceptions I had going into VR was...

Was that it was all gamers, which it's not. Um, it's heavily social and it's—that doesn't mean there's not gamers we're there, but uh, I was just, I was taken aback by how heavily social it is where there's where people don't just don't play games. They're just there for the social part. However, there are awesome games. Population One is one of them. I love it. I'm obsessed with it. And so um, so every Thursday night I will go in and open up a public lobby. I'll entitle it VR Bible Study and just wait for people to come in. And there's a few of us that will go in and we'll just start playing and wait for people to come in. And invariably, random people will just start coming in. And 100 percent of the people that come in that don't know what it is think that it's a joke. Nobody comes in thinking it's an actual Bible study. But we we go and we play and we don't say anything. We just keep playing. And then in between matches, I will, you know, at some point I will round everybody up and I will say, "Hey, we're in the universe in the lobby and I'll just say, 'Hey, let's get together. We're going to do our devotional now.'" And like all the people that are like thinking it's fake, they're like, "No way, this is really a Bible study?" I'm like, "Yeah, it is." So I'll start going into it. And we'll get the trolls that will start shooting me and throwing grenades at me or whatever, you know, that—not grenades, but they'll be shooting at me. They'll be building around me and stuff. And um, and it's fine. And I just keep going. And every single week when I start, at when I get to the scripture, when I say, "Okay, let me just read from the word," and I start reading the word, the entire place quiets down. Every single time. It's amazing. And like every week I'm like, "No way this guy's gonna stop shooting me. This guy's determined." I start reading the scripture. He stops and he sits down. And um, and it's just, you know, it's just we talk about like go where the fruit is and why, why do we keep going? It's just because we keep seeing fruit that is being born. And you know, I do the Population One and I, at the end, you know, one of the kids came up to me. Could he was probably ten years old. And he's like, "What was that all about?" You know, just a kid from, you know, from the United States. And like, "Well, that's from the Bible." "You know, the Bible is—no, I don't know what, what is that about?" "Like, like the Bible, like Jesus and Adam and Eve and, you know, you heard that?" He's like, "No, I don't know anything about it." And I'm like, "You know, we grew up in a time when you at least knew what the Bible had in it. And kids now, like this kid, did not know. And I was like, 'Have you seen a church? There's a cross out in front of it. You've seen that?' He goes, 'Yes, I have seen that.' So do you know what that cross means?" He's like, "I have no idea." So I had, you know, two minutes to deliver the entire story of the Bible and the Gospel to this kid. And at the end he's like, "Well, that's a lot to process." I'm like, "Yeah, sure is. But like, let me know if you want to talk more about it." And and that's it. And so it's just like the opportunity to plant seeds like that and reach kids, you know, men and women. It's it's just unprecedented. So you talk about reaching the ends of the earth with the Gospel, man, this is a pretty good shot at it, you know? And those, I love, I love hearing about the Population One. And we'd be remiss if we didn't share a story about our sweet Alice. We got it. Nicole's got it. I don't know, Jeff, you have time for that? But there's a story that's just man, so powerful. And it goes along with what Goose is saying in terms of reaching people that are far from God and then how they got connected to the forever family and are being discipled and equipped and doing ministry and reaching. It's crazy. So Nicole, Nicole, go ahead. You gotta share cause you're just, she's discipling uh our sister, oh Alice. Yes. So about probably a year and a change, a year and a few months ago, somebody popped in to our AltSpace service. Um, she was flaming red hair, flaming red outfit, and her avatar name was the Future Queen of Hell. And so understandably, we kept a pretty close eye on her um that first service. And she told me later that she had come in to troll. She had come in to cause problems um because she was bored one day. Um, she didn't have anything else to do, so I'm gonna go cause problems at this church. But she kept coming back. Um, and as she kept coming back, like more and people, more and more people started befriending her. Um, we started talking to her, getting to know her a little bit. Um, and just through those, like, we never pushed anything on her. She was very clear on Discord that she was not a Christian. She didn't believe any of this stuff. But she kept coming back. And so we just befriended her. We played games with her. We talked to her. And through that friendship, she started to trust us. Um, to the point where I think it was January, December, January of this last year, she messaged me on Discord and said, "Hey, I'm having a really hard time with something. Can I talk to you about it?" Like, "Of course, yes, please do." And so she she talked to me about how she is having this trouble at work. Um, and as I was talking to her, that led to me just asking her, "Hey, do you want to get together once a week and just read the Bible? Just that's it. Like, not like a Bible study, not trying to push anything on you, just so you can ask questions." Um, and she said yes. So we started doing that. Um, and we did that for several months. And part of that was actually um, we decided to go into Rec Room, which is another one of the social apps, and start building. And we ended up that she, as a non-Christian, Future Queen of Hell, she built our church campus, our Cornerstone campus in Rec Room. So we have a gorgeous church um in that platform that we're that we're starting to get into. Um, but eventually June of this year, she became a Christian. She changed her name. She she turned her life around. So she, and she told me later as we as we were walking through some of the discipleship process and as I got her testimony that yes, she was a Satanist. She grew up in a pagan home. There are no believers in her family at all. And she did come in to cause problems. But she said, "Because you guys were so welcoming and nobody caused me problems, I decided something kept pulling me back to listen." And she said, "I went from a place where I lived in the darkness because that was the only place I belonged to now I live in the light and I have hope." And um, she's got friends in Rec Room. She hangs out mostly in Rec Room. She has friends in Rec Room that when I've met them, they're usually drunk most of the time. They're they're completely without hope. Um, going through a lot of hard things. And she has shared the love of God with them to the point where they're coming to church with her now. Um, so I think that story alone, she was baptized in in Rec Room just a couple weeks ago in the church that she built. Um, so I think that story is my absolute favorite. Um, and as I have discipled her, she is fully into it. The questions she asks, the insight she has in the scripture, it's not a surface thing. It is completely changing everything about her. And it's been absolutely incredible to watch. And she lives in the UK by the way. She is in England. So Future Queen of Hell is on another continent and a church in California through a virtual reality, through a metaverse church, uh, was able to uh bring a troll to Jesus. I mean, trolls need, trolls need Christ too. And so man, I love that. Um, and she never would have set foot in a brick and mortar church in real life. And I mean, that that's that's the theme. Why it's like when I talk to churches about the metaverse and and and doing ministry in that space, you know, after the shock value that I typically get from the average church leader, get down to this fact of the people that are coming to Christ in this space are ones that will never come into the building. We're having conversations with people that don't even know what the Bible is. Uh, you know, Michael, to your point. And and now we're actually able to engage with them, dialogue with them, build relationships and and turn a pagan on another continent, get them connected to Jesus and and baptize them. You know, that's I thank God for the for metaverse. It's funny. Like I I made a joke off air uh this past week or a couple weeks ago. I did a video stream on on the future church in the metaverse. And I have never been slammed publicly by so many people as I did trying to compare the the the Bible, the church and putting the church in in the metaverse. Uh, seed of Satan. Uh, this is the birthplace of the Antichrist, the metaverse. And and I'm like, "I have a conversation with some of these people, talk to people that are actually doing ministry in this space." And and what you hear is a completely separate conversation. Because while the rest of the world's saying no, there are people out there that are recognize the potential of the mission field and the opportunities to reach people a different type of person in a different way. So I love the fact that you all are doing this. And um, I have been so happy, you know, talking with Jason, watching from afar, cheering you guys on. And the rest of, you know, uh, the DJ Sotos, the Jade Earharts, the um, the uh, Pastor Brock's and the others, guys that are out there and gals that that are just on the edge here, um, bleeding edge, doing ministry in places that the average church, at least in the Western Hemisphere, doesn't even consider. They don't even consider that a community. And the fact that you guys are doing church in that space, reaching people, holy cow, you got Stewart, you're sending Stewart off to be a missionary into uh VR Chat. I mean, that that's the unspoken story right here, man. That's that's phenomenal. Hey, Jason, hone in on this because I'm hoping somebody's listening to this and realizing, "Hey, there's actual ministry in that space." Maybe it's a church leader. Maybe it's a high-level volunteer. And they're maybe one to explore this. How do they get started? What do you what do you recommend? How does a church start to explore this idea of doing church, being the church in the metaverse? Yeah, I mean, just first get exposed. Just check it out. I mean, come and come and see. Come and see the services we do or the Population One Bible study. Of course, some of that requires a headset. Some of it doesn't. You can actually do it for free on your desktop to the applications. So they can actually come. I mean, they can even start just with watching it live stream right on any of our channels, Twitch, YouTube, Facebook. They can see what it looks like. Now, that could be put-offish at first because where the technology is currently, um, it still maybe looks like, you know, uh, you know, the the avatars are still, you know, cartoonish, if you will. Now, give five to ten years, it's going to be pretty crazy in terms of its realism. So that may be off-putting at first. But at least check it out. One, if they can get into a headset and they're like, "What, three hundred bucks for an Oculus Quest 2?" Which is not that expensive. I mean, really. And so if they could get a headset, they could then come in and actually see what we're talking about in terms of the connectivity that happens when you're in that 3D uh experience, when you the spatial relational connectivity that you have with people and the nonverbals that are still happening even in the avatar kind of setting. And so if they could see that and see what happens and see the encouraging conversations and prayer and lifting each other up, I think it really will blow them away. And maybe some of those that are so hostile to it because of the entrenched traditions that that Michael was talking about, maybe some of that will pull down a notch so they can actually then take an extent, which next step would be they they uh just get in and start a ministry. Um, then we we really did not know at all what we were doing. I mean, I I was

The joke you said, oh yeah, I didn't, I didn't know how to spell. What did you say? I didn't know how to spell VR. Yeah, yeah, I didn't even know how to spell VR. I was like, let's just do this, whatever it is. It's true. It's really true. And that's why I needed Nicole and no one will take her from me because she was able to like really figure all of it out and get us in there. But you can do it if you have just one person. Most likely it'll be a younger person that's probably already a gamer in your church, I would guess. A lot of churches probably have that one person. And if you just say your congregation, we want to go into this space, we're not sure what we're doing yet, I bet you there'll be somebody to pop up like a steward, like an angel. It'll say, I'd love to do that. Three hundred headset, boom. Then before you know it, you've got a little space you can meet. Lakeland Church, Jeff, you helped and we helped with those guys just getting into a platform that's actually free. There's free platforms and then just be there, be faithful to show up, and people will just start to connect. And if you love people, they will stick around and they will hear. And before you know it, who knows where that, where the Lord will lead it. So it's not complicated. I mean, there are some nuances and details, of course, but really to get started, it's not complicated.

But I would expect, I would say get in and be exposed so they can see what it's like and not just have these caricatures of this that they've been told about.

Well said. You know, in Lakeland Church, Stewart's a friend over there, Stuart McPherson. I think he told me recently they spent six hundred dollars to start their VR church. They bought two headsets. And so they give, you know, to volunteers to utilize during the services and things. And the world itself was free within all field up to build out.

Yeah, I mean, volunteers need to get involved and you need to staff it or at least structure it some way, accountability under staff. But there's the actual execution of this is dirt, dirt cheap in the virtual reality realm. And I mean, the fruit of it, these stories are phenomenal. The future queen of hell getting baptized and things like that. And that's what a phenomenal story. That's just starting, you know. And as up and as she's developed and is starting to, you said even bringing some of her friends along and championing this idea. You've got Stuart who's, you know, owning this idea of being a meta missionary and running into VR chat, the wild, wild west with the light of the gospel. Angel who's taking this information and this understanding and she is literally being the feet of the gospel in physical space, being encouraged by meta family. Like, there's two phenomenal stories just within those two. The idea of championing, the pastoring people in digital space. Like, I mean, there were so many other questions. Michael, we're gonna have to get together and do a podcast later on this because I want to unpack. It's so much more. Forget Jason. Like, he's, you know, he's done. Let's let's, I'm old hat, man. I was born in nineteen seventy-five. Jeff, hey, he's guys like ancient. He's like grandpa. I'm surprised you still have your teeth in your mouth. But you know, some of the options, some of the opportunities to even learn from you, Michael, and this is great. And you know, honestly, it's, you know, maybe I should have said up front, but this, you're the only church I know that, well, I mean, maybe Lakeland, I think is getting there, but that's doing three expressions of church. You're doing physical, you're doing avatar meta, and you're broadcasting services as well. So you're doing like a digital approach that's three modes. And by the way, last I asked you were like two hundred fifty people at your physical environments. Like, how big are you now?

Yeah, probably attendance two hundred fifty, yeah, maybe three hundred something like that.

But yeah, I mean, so this is not a mega, giga, multi. This is not a very rich, wealthy church that's just burning money here. And the approach to recognizing an opportunity to multiply inexpensively and have an impact with people that don't know who God is or are not going to the buildings, my gosh, like, I mean, you're one of my favorite churches in the country just because you're looking at this from a different approach. So you know, thank you for doing everything you're doing in this space, Jeff. We appreciate that.

You know, one thing I've been thinking about, I think church is really going to have to process this together, to be honest about the coming, the coming next five, ten, twenty, fifty, you know, whatever years. We're probably going to start thinking about not mega but meta because I do think it's going to be harder and harder for mega churches. And they're so expensive. And the people that go to the mega churches, you know, they're probably for the most part not that unchurched. Don't sometimes matriculate into those places, but usually it's just from all the data that's out there and anecdotal stories as well. It's usually people that are in some way already churched or maybe been de-churched. And they, which is great, we'd love to see de-church get re-churched in a mega church if that's great, praise God, if that's what happens. But as far as like really making a dent in the unchurched, massively unchurched population, right, Gen Z, generation Alpha, it's unprecedented the levels of unchurchedness that exists there. And so I think we're going to have to go towards meta, not so much mega. And I think there's some expressions and maybe someday we can talk about this, but with the hybrid approach, you know, for example, Stewart, you know, he was in the VR church and then you know, he and I talked about how to get connected there in North Carolina and now he's at in real life church. So one of the things we are excited about is the possibility of when you connect all these people to metaverse, then help them find also a physical church and then they infect or influence that physical church to say, hey, maybe we should start thinking about church differently. And they get them involved and then before you know it, man, we're just the whole church is working together collaboratively to do the Great Commission together.

On top of that, what Angel's talking about, I mean, she's got like twelve. She's literally got twelve disciples. I was looking at a picture of a small group, twelve people. She's in the front with the picture and the avatar's like, oh my gosh, you're like you're like following Jesus's path here. But she's already gotten people connected in IRL like you said, her family from Atlanta and friends that went to the Panthers game with her.

One of the thoughts is, what if we have some micro church expressions, some organic churches that grow up in IRL that are in some way centered on this concept of the metaverse? So you get them excited, but you're still meeting IRL. There's a local expression, but then they're getting out together as missionaries into the metaverse. And so now you have all these churches that are just local, micro, cheap, not expensive, mega churches. And I think that's probably going to be the next phase of the church, at least in the West, because I don't think the mega church, I just don't know if they can over that over time. You know, they'll be the big ones that survive, but I think we got to go meta, not mega.

Let's do this. We're going to do another podcast on this. And you listening audience, I agree with everything Jason just said. And if you're still listening to this, I don't know when I'm going to play this podcast, so it may or may not be relevant. But if you haven't heard a major announcement coming out of the Church Digital, pray, because everything Jason just said, we're going to try to make a reality come in a big way for a number of churches in America and around the world.

So the listenership tends to die off towards the end, so it may be my mother who just heard that podcast. I don't know who else is actually listening.

Huh, she could start. I listen. My mom's leading three small groups online. I should too. She's multiplying into a third like, and so she's, my mom's seventy-five and is doing, doing, she got, she got disciples all over the freaking country. It's, it's well, hey, Jeff, you'll have two listeners because my mom will also listen to the end with your mom.

Mom power for the win.

Hey, seriously, mom power. All about it. That's awesome. Hey, Angel, I'm just curious, within your virtual reality, within your meta small group, how many states, countries, like what's the distribution of that? Is it hyper local to you or is it all scattered all over?

Definitely scattered all over. The cool thing is I actually went to my hometown, Savannah, this past weekend. I had my mom join me as a little special guest to the small group. They loved it. It was awesome. So there's so many accents. She was just like in awe. Literally all over all those countries I said earlier. And you would hear it when we read the scriptures together. You would just, you can tell someone is from or somewhere else. Especially when it's like super late for them, but it's super late for me too. But it's super late and then someone else is like, oh, it's not that late. Are all in different time zones, all in different continents, countries, different experiences. It's definitely spread out. It's very rare, I think, to find people actually near you. When I do find someone that's like in Georgia, most likely they'll be in Atlanta. I'm like, oh my gosh, because you know, it's not, it's kind of rare.

Love what you guys are doing. Love, love what's coming out of the church you weren't expected to, the small church on the West Coast that is attacking the multiverse or the metaverse. Completely separate podcast on the multiverse. Sorry. It's that's the struggle of my life.

So hey, we're gonna land the plane. I thank you so much for this time, everybody on here. Jason, thank you for assembling the team. Stewart, Michael, Nicole, Angel, it's been an awesome conversation. But sadly, we got to go and I'll reschedule something else. But for everybody, I just said Jason, Stewart, Michael, Nicole, Angel, this is Jeff at the Church Digital. It was state of interest planning. Thanks for jumping on the podcast and we'll see you next time here at the show. Y'all have a good one.