EP202: Staff Soulcare, Jon Pyle, and Better on the Inside Takeover

All right, hey, welcome to episode 202 of the Church Digital Podcast. I'm Jeff here, founder of the Church Digital and Digital Church Network, and really before we even get into the podcast, I feel like I just really want to celebrate, you know, some of the stuff that's happening here with the Digital Church Network. We're going to be featuring that in future episodes, and really season three coming up right around the corner is where we're going to be doing a deep dive talking about a lot of the philosophy, the mindset behind creating movements centered around what's happening with the Digital Church Network.

And so I want to do this: if you are interested, we're having a couple introductory meetings. You know, I was talking, we're partnering with New Thing Network, and New Thing is actually the vehicle that's really growing a lot of our movement pieces. And so Dave Ferguson and the team over there at New Thing is going to be doing a talk with us on February 21st, and I just was texting right before I jumped on this—Rob Wagner is going to be coming on in March and doing that. So there's some incredible opportunities to learn about movement and talk about what that can look like in digital space, in metaspace, and try to figure out some next steps. And so if you're interested in the shameless plug here for Digital—not shameless, sign up. I'm so—it's the guy's so excited, it's my guest here, he's already jumping in before I've introduced them. John, calm down, we'll get there in a second. But no, listen, digitalchurch.network. Go to the website, digitalchurch.com. We'll put a link in the show notes, but if you're interested, let's get you plugged in and let's start moving towards creating some of these movements in digital and metaspace.

Well, hey, that's nice, and we're going to feature more of that in the weeks to come. Keep checking out digitalchurch.net. Hey, did I mention there's a website, digitalchurch.network? Before anybody else leaves, hangs up on this podcast to go to digitalchurch.network, we should probably actually go ahead and do the podcast.

So for the remainder of season two here, for the month of February, we are featuring a takeover. We talked about this, you know, where we at the Church Digital were launching a Digital Church Network. Or excuse me, yeah, well, no, a podcast network. Did I mention digitalchurch.network? But we're launching a podcast network, a different type of, and as a result of that, we're really starting to feature a lot of other content creators in helping to platform others that really have an interesting message to say when talking about church online, digital church, meta church, digital discipleship, digital is a mission field—a lot of these things that we resonate here with Church Digital.

And last week was Tom Pounder with episode 201, the TCD Sidekick. Tom's been with us and actually helped me birth the podcast network back in February—excuse me, November of '21.

And today we're bringing in one of the new people we're kind of championing here in this cause, and that's John Pyle. Hey, John, how you doing?

Hello. Sorry, I jumped in early. I was just so excited. You got me all fired up with New Thing, man.

Listen, if there's a lot to be excited about here in digital church, one of the values here with the network is, man, we want to go with the goers. And so often, and really that's been a radical shift for me within the past six or eight months where it's, you know, we're in the season, and I don't know how many articles I can read in the different publications about how church online's horrible, it's the worst thing ever, why can't we just meet physically? And then, but then I'm seeing stories of life change in the ministry of what's happening, and I'm hearing about people that are being discipled in this space, and people that are moving past the consumerism approach of digital, moving past maybe some more of a healthier approach towards digital ministry than just the isolation that so many of our churches stumbled into without realizing there's a better solution.

And really, John, I mean, this is that's the sight, Andrew, but that's really why I was so excited about bringing you into this podcast network and helping to really platform and try to get more people to pay attention to some of the stuff that you were saying. We jumped on, and I don't even know if you know this part of the story, but some late last year, October, November, I had this idea for a podcast, and the idea was centered around, man, digital pastors—they never get a break. And especially coming into the Christmas season, it was like, hey, I want to do this episode for digital pastors who never get vacation, never get downtime. They're always on the clock. Social media is always, always a thing. And so there's never that nine to five with the digital pastor.

So I had this idea for a podcast episode, and I actually went to try to find somebody to be the guest for that. And John, I want confession hour here for the show: you were not my first choice. You were not my second choice. You were not even my third choice. You were number four. What was fascinating was three other people were like, no, I don't want to have that conversation. You were the guy that was like, heck yeah, I'm all about that, let's go. And for me, that was—and it was a great podcast. We'll link to it in the show notes. But it really stood out to me like your passion in this space and your understanding towards the mental health and the stability and the soul care for us as pastors and ministers and also the people that we're doing ministry with.

Well, man, okay, as a mediocre athlete growing up, I know that when you get a chance off the bench, you got to be ready. This is my Tom Brady moment, baby. Bring me off the bench, eighth round draft pick. I'm swinging it out there.

Well, but this matters to me because, you know, first of all, I understand what you're saying about all the articles about how digital church is terrible and we're awful people and all that stuff. Anyway, I know that that's not exactly what they're saying, but I'm like, y'all, the first church planters were networked through non-physical means. Like, who do you think Paul's writing a letter to? The people that he meets with every week? Come on. Like, this, the church is founded on innovation anyway. I could go off on that, but so much of what I'm seeing from church world right now—this is my tenth year working at City Church coming up on eleven actually, coming up on eleven this year—and what I've seen in that church world is the burnout and the challenge of ministry is a take. It doesn't matter how good you are at it or how easy it is or how long you've been doing it. If you're pouring your life out, it eventually catches up to you if you're not being fed and if you're not receiving at the same or a higher rate.

And so I just see people burnt out all the time, and digital, it feels like it does it faster, right? That's what digital does. Digital does everything faster, and it burns you out faster because it can feel like you're always on and there's always a problem to solve. There's always a message, there's always a text, there's always a post. There's all—I mean, you could schedule out for three years your social media stuff. Like, there's always stuff that you can do.

And so I just feel like at some point, and this is going back to almost pre-digital kind of stuff, like one of the clear things that God spoke to me is my people are not expendable, and every single person matters. And so that perspective kind of aligned with my job and doing digital stuff, but also the pastoral care piece. You know, you don't always find those two linked together, but I get excited about the mission of helping people be healthy. That's just, I love it. And but I practice it myself. I'm not the expert because I got this down. I'm the guy that's going through it with you and going, hey, come on, I think I found something that works, and then pointing out other people that do as well. So that's been my focus.

So thank you for, I mean, having me on, even as the fourth choice. I love it.

Yeah, you know, John, I don't know that I even had a lot of exposure to you at that point. I want to say it was a tweet or a social media post or Facebook or something that I saw this, and it was like, huh, that's an interesting perspective. Let me, you know, I just—it was a tweet. It was Twitter because we were—I remember DMing now and working through that and kind of like asking some casual questions and getting some really sharp responses, and I'm like, man, there's something to this guy, and there's something to the ideas and what he's talking about.

And what's interesting is you were probably the second. I think there was one other conversation that I had with somebody that was so soul care-minded, mental health, pastoral care type. It was the—I'm blanking on the gentleman's name right now—but at Transformation Church Durham, Grace Church, the guy over there. It was a soul care, was mental health, was pastoral care, but was also digital pastor. And that was a really rare formula. But it seems like more and more now, coming into this, like, putting it in that soul care bucket because there's finally recognition that it can be so relational, and putting a person that's heavily relational in the chair to control that is paying off.

Yeah, it helps us move beyond this idea that I've heard you champion so much: online ministry isn't just streaming your service. Digital isn't just streaming your service. And so you have to have a relational piece to it.

So yes, if I did one thing, I taught John Pyle that, and he's excited about it. So that's cool. We'll get off air, we'll—I'll get John to do another dance, and it'll be awesome.

Hey, so tell me, I mean, we're turning the corner here a little bit. You're launching this new podcast now. You've been doing it for a while, but ramping it up and with maybe a stronger focus here through the Church Digital. But it's this idea of "Better on the Inside." Tell us a little bit here about the podcast and maybe the heart behind it.

Yeah, well, the heart behind it is how to work for a church without losing your soul, right? That's the tagline, and that's pretty strong. But I think we can all point to people—whether they actually were on church staff or whether they volunteered heavily or just super involved—where you lose a piece of yourself. You feel like you can lose your soul, the essence of your belief in your faith by serving the church. And the church can kind of eat that up.

And so in this season of deconstruction, in this season of—I mean, pandemic and a lot of grief and loss—I think that is becoming even more poignant, even more of the thing that people are wrestling with: how do we create cultures that are better on the inside?

And so what I mean is, it felt like, looking through my lens and even at my own church, the more involved people got, sometimes the further away they got from Jesus. And we weren't always making disciples of Jesus, but sometimes we're making disciples of the church that could be chewed up and spit out by this large evangelical machine. And I don't want that. I want to create cultures that are better on the inside.

And it actually came from a conversation with a volunteer—actually staff member, previous volunteer, previous attender at Church of the Highlands—who told me when I was there for a conference, all skeptical and jaded, who was like, no, it's better on the inside. And I was like, that's possible? Like, that casts the vision of like—

That's possible. It's not just like we do this work and we're kind of like, because if you talk to somebody who's worked for a church for a while, they're some of the most jaded people in the world. I mean cynical, jaded, like you've seen it all. And it's cool because we've seen amazing parts of our job, but when this woman told me that they're at Church of the Highlands, she, it was actually better on the inside. She was closer to Jesus from going from an attender to a volunteer to a staff member. And I was like, whoa, that's a vision. That's a lifelong vision to make it better on the inside. Because when we make cultures better on the inside, we could be better on the inside. So that's kind of the vision behind the podcast, Confession Hour, here. At one point in the early 2000s, I actually ran a satire blog called jadedchristian.com. You didn't know that about me. But that's a true piece, and it was told, and people out there are doing math trying to justify the story. And if you want to reach out to me, I'll tell you the story. It's fine. But there's truth here. Like I was a prime example of that where as a volunteer, not even as a staff person, I would joke, "So and so owns my soul. So and so has a piece of my soul." My dog is coming to say hello in the podcast. But like it was so much a part of that, and trying to overcome that, it did turn me jaded. It turned me bitter. It really became something. And you know, it's funny, and years later I think I'm better. And sometimes I have a hard conversation or I snap back. It was funny the other day. This is Confession Hour, and I always feel good when I talk with you. It's like, hey, let's just be open. It's just you and me and you know, whoever many hundreds of people are listening to the podcast. But the other day, my dad was talking about one of the churches that I used to work with, and in Confession Hour, I got really short-tempered with him. I ended up apologizing after the fact and was like, hey, that wasn't good. But it was, he pulled a thread unintentionally that I was like, oh, I am not as healed on this as I thought I was. And then it was, man, I gotta let's, I gotta dig into that. I gotta do some work in that space to work through it. And I reached out to a friend of mine. I was like, hey, we need to have a conversation about this because I'm a little more ripe on this than I thought. And even still, you know, years later, it's I'm still kind of sensitive to that or more sensitive than I thought. And it's like, it's so hard when you put your all into something and you're told it's for the kingdom, but then there's a different mindset or a different ideology or a different direction. And you want the, I mean, the organization needs the ability to have the freedom to pivot or to shift or to do things. But you're giving all of it. And so it's literally a piece of your soul that's going with it. And you know, I don't know that that's biblical. I don't know that that's not biblical. It's just one of the really the challenges of how we today, this Western model of church is really operating. And I mean, honestly, there's a little bit of the digital church network in here because there's other ways to do this. But the larger part of this is that we've got 330,000 evangelical churches, and many of those are having pastors that are leaving because they're frustrated, because they're burned, because they're tired, because they're underpaid, because they're over-taxed and overworked. And because in many ways they've become this vehicle to God instead of empowering individuals to get there, you know, on their own. It's become the professional Christian doling it out instead of the equipper piece. But I don't want to get into that. I just I love this fact that we're addressing some of this and working it through.

Yeah, there's a digital pastor piece of this, but there's also like as a person, as a pastor, as a volunteer, like there are ways that we can do this where we can do ministry and also be better on the inside, man. This, some the podcast actually changed. We started working on it of like something like the Messy Middle or something about like how does holiness look in everyday life? That was the initial kind of conceit. We recorded some episodes. We did some stuff. We were moving down that line, and I got challenged by my producer, Andre Jennings, of like, he just pushed me like, you got, what's your audience? Who you really looking for? And I'm like, man, if I could just have my church staff listen to a podcast, that would be exciting. And it's like, I want to give something to you know folks who are struggling. Because part of it is that you don't listen to the sermon because you've been critiquing the sermon or videoing the sermon and you listen to it and you did this. Like, when was the last time you went to church? That's a question to challenge everybody. When was last time you really went to church? And so providing some kind of content that people can engage with that actually like feeds the soul is another good piece to it. And man, when Jesus said, what does it profit a man to gain the world but lose his soul, he's talking about stuff like this. What does it profit you to gain so much in success, to gain so much in church attendance, to gain so much in promotion and whatever that you might be experiencing in your thing, but to lose the special part of you that's deeply connected to him and lose sight of it? And it's toxic when we do that.

Awesome. So here with the takeover, I mean, we're literally we're now doing the intro and we're gonna play one of your episodes here from Better on the Inside. What set up an intro here? Explain, set it up. What episode are we listening to? Who are we going to be interviewing? This one, we're listening to Dr. Roberta Jones Hall, or Birdie as we call her around City Church. And she is a licensed minister and doctor. She's a Christian psychiatrist. And so not just a psychologist or a counselor, like a psychiatrist. And so she digs deep on mental health and understands both aspects, the clinical aspect as well as the spiritual aspect. And when Birdie and I talked, kind of for the conceit of the initial podcast about holiness, she just brought a ton of wisdom. And she is a voice that can speak in terms that people can understand. And so she just has an incredible way of speaking into life and making some of the things simple around how to grow spiritually and be healthy spiritually. And she also accepts that you can't just pray away depression. Right there's a spiritual, physical, and mental aspect to all these things. And she really unites those three in one. And so my conversation with Birdie was great. She blew my mind on some points talking about holiness, talking about, um, talking about the downside to a miracle. Like I, that sounds so wrong. Like may God strike me down. But it's not. It's a really good point. And if nothing else, listen for the downside to a miracle because it's really good.

Hey, yeah, so stick around. Like I kind of freaked out. He said it off there talking about that. Are we just doing like bad theology at this point? No, it'll make sense. Give her a chance. It'll play out. And honestly, I think she's spot on in this context with it anyway. And so here we are, we're bringing into the conversation John Pyle, host of Better on the Inside, and Roberta Jones Hall, in a conversation about really addressing and finding the capacity for holiness. This is the Better on the Inside takeover. Okay, everybody, here you go.

What's up, y'all? Welcome to Better on the Inside, a podcast about working for a church without losing your soul. My name is John, and I'm your host and digital pastor. We started this podcast because it can be really difficult to work for a church and follow Jesus. It's so messy and complex. You spend so much time caring for others and creating great experiences for your church that it's easy for you to get lost in your personal spiritual journey to go on the back burner, or even worse, you can get jaded, cynical, and find yourself totally disconnected from Jesus while still being asked to serve others. My vision is to create a church culture that's better on the inside. A church that's better on the inside means as you get more involved or more connected, you don't just do more. You actually get closer to Jesus too. I don't want you to become a cog in the machine. You matter too much for that. I want you to thrive in your own relationship with Jesus. You are not expendable. You are a masterpiece. A better on the inside culture will leave us all better on the inside too.

Hey, what's up, y'all? I'm here with Dr. Roberta Jones Hall. I call her Birdie, right? Right. And I'm so excited to talk to you because you have such a unique background, right? Not only are you like a minister, right, and you're trained on the Jesus side, you're also a doctor and a mental health professional, psychiatrist. And so in talking about the messy middle and people becoming more like Jesus and holiness, and also mental health, you have a totally unique perspective.

Well, you're very kind, John. You're very kind. The gracious answers. Thank you so much. But I think it's also really important too to just recognize that before anything, we are two human beings that love Jesus. We love his followers. We love the body of Christ. And so the whole goal of our conversation is to bless people, encourage people, lift them up, and maybe put some clear road signs along this path we're all trying to walk.

Yeah, because sometimes what we hear from pulpits, and I use the plural term pulpits because there are so many messages and so much information coming from so many places, it's like, oh my gosh, I don't even know which one to listen to.

Yeah, it's an overload. We are so overloaded. You know, the book of Daniel says that in the last days knowledge would be greatly increased, and we are living in days when knowledge is just overwhelming. It's incredible. And so one of the best things when I got to first meet you, right, through Pastor Brent, yeah, you shared just incredible wisdom. And that's when I think of you, I think about wisdom. And so I have a notebook that I took notes of. Oh my goodness, the conversation, the whole deal, right? No pressure. What did I say? And so differentiating between this vast knowledge and the depleting wisdom, just it feels like there's so much less wisdom, and people are looking for it. It's the road signs that you talked about. Where do I go? Okay, I know that there's this study and there's that study and there's this study, and there's this person that says this and that person says that, that person says that. But what do I do?

You are so right. Now I think first of all, let's just talk about what's the difference between knowledge and wisdom.

Yeah, you know, knowledge is, hey, go look for it on the internet. Now you can find good knowledge, bad knowledge, real knowledge, fake knowledge, halfway in between, half fake, half real knowledge. Pick your knowledge. You know, I mean, it's like gathering sand on the seashore, okay? I mean, that's how much knowledge there is. Wisdom is what do I do with the information? Yes. And that's breathed by the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is the one that makes Jesus real inside of us. He reveals the Father. He reveals Jesus. He reveals the Word. So as we gather information, it's not just like, you know, kids gathering Easter eggs and dumping them in the basket, you know? It's we want to gather that, but then we want to surrender not just our information but our hearts to who Jesus really is and let him show us, this is what you do with that information, and this is what that information means to you specifically in your life.

Oh yeah, yeah, not just, oh yeah, this is what you do, blanket.

Know all right everybody breathe on the count of three. You know, it's he's so intimate and so personal. He'll take that scripture or that word or that piece of information and he wants to apply it to John. He wants to apply it to Birdie. Yeah, you know, he very, very individualized because of his care. Yeah, for us, a very personal care, very, very personal. And we don't, I think for some people they've presented this version of religion where it's very impersonal, where it's a big God way over there or way up there, right? That's that needs you to like follow the rules or he's going to strike you down. And so that that individual care thing will be that I think that's going to be great for people to hear, just to even think of a God that cares.

Well, you said it perfectly. You said people have a concept that religion is impersonal. That's because it is. Religion's always impersonal. Yeah, I mean religion per se. I like to say who drove Jesus totally bonkers when he was on the face of the earth? It was the religious crazies. It was the scribes and Pharisees with their rules and lists. And what Jesus liked to go hang out with? Prostitutes and fishermen and the lady at the well, you know? Yeah, you know, who'd been married five times and is shacking up with the next guy. I mean, Jesus is relational. Religion is rules-based. Relationships are not rule-space. Can't you just see how far it would go if you walk into your wife and pull out your list of here are my rules?

I don't think she's going to be happy with you. No, no. Well, by the same token, if we think of really fully walking with Jesus, we cannot think in terms of rules, regulations, and that type of rigidity. Yeah, okay. Now relationships based on respect, we find relational rules come into play, right? You're not going to go hang out at the bar. Why not? Because you work on staff at City Church. Because you have a relationship with Jesus. You have this wonderful relationship with your wife. You have this awesome relationship with your children. And that relationship creates internal rules based on love. Yeah, you love and respect them. Therefore, you make choices based on what builds your relationship, right? Right, man, that's good.

Yeah, so let's take that over to Jesus. I love and respect Jesus. Now, you know, I think there are a whole lot of people in the world that don't realize it, but if you, if we really, you know, push the issue, they're going to say I really respect the person that Jesus is. They may not believe he's the Son of God. They may not follow him. They may not think of any of that. But if you read the life of, I'll word it this way, just the historical Jesus, yeah, if you're an honest human being, you will respect him. I mean, you will respect him. You may or may not like him. You may or may not agree with him. But you will respect him because of his integrity, compassion, et cetera. So so out of love and respect then for Jesus, that begins to create what I like to call guardrails on the freeway for my life, not out of, oh my gosh, did I check off this box? Oh my goodness, oh I hit my thumb with the hammer. I said that word, you know, right? That's not holiness. That's not holiness. Yes, okay.

So so I have to talk about the word holiness. Yes, because we never use it in our society. No, it's kind of a dirty word of like, well, it is a four-letter word. Holy is a four-letter word, so you can take that where you want to. Yeah, okay. So let's talk about God, right? What does God say? Because I looked it up before I came here to make sure I had my brain all in order. So what does Leviticus say? It's like five times in Leviticus: be holy for I am holy, right? And then over in First Peter, it is written: be holy for I am holy. This is how we read it out of out of Leviticus. And if you've ever gotten bogged down in all the sacrifices in Leviticus, yes, yeah, that's when you start flipping pages and saying, do you mind if I skip this? And yeah, and it's it's not that it's not important, but it too depends on our heart where we come. Where is each person coming from? Here's how we read it. When we read this, are you ready? Be holy for I am holy, okay? And that's how we're that's how we see God. You better be holy because I'm holy. And we just have all this anger and and and rigidity and and fear and and just plain mean. Oh yes, he's just mean. Yeah, okay. Well, here's the reason we do that. Are you ready? Yeah, I'm so ready. We do that because if you watch us and we think we're right and the other guy's wrong, how do we act? Well, they just don't do it like I do it. Yeah, so what we've done is we've projected our humanity onto God, put our words, our concept, our tone of voice in his mouth, and had him speak it and thought it was him, right? And said, be holy for I am holy. Well, God talks about that over in Psalms. He said, you think I'm just like you, but I'm not. Yeah, now so we think that's how God is saying it to us, right? But let's go back to Genesis. When God created, what did he do? He spoke, right? Yeah, he said, let there be light. And the Hebrew actually says light be. And light became. It was. Why? Because he said so. Now so he creates by his word, yeah. How about in John chapter one? In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. That's Jesus. Jesus is the picture of the Word of God, right? So God isn't saying be holy for I am holy. What is God doing when he says be holy? He creates in you the capacity to be holy. He creates. He speaks and creates in you the capacity to receive his holiness. When you're born again, that's incredible. That's like rewind. Can we say it again, right? Wow, so how did Jesus heal the blind man? Receive your sight. He'd lay hands on him, but he did what? He spoke, spoke, right. How about the lame man? Rise and walk. He speaks, yeah, right, right. Remember when he cursed the fig tree? He spoke. Now I don't want to hear him send any curses my way, you know, okay. And for all of you who are feeling really really guilty, calm down, okay? So what does God do? He says be holy, and then listen what he says: for I am holy. In other words, when you are born again, God becomes your very own father. Well, has anyone ever looked at a child and said, oh my goodness, you look just like your dad? You look just like your mom? Yeah, remember Amy Grant, years and years ago, had a song? She has her father's eyes. Yeah, why? Well, because God is our very own father. He is holy. He creates in us the capacity to receive himself. And so the capacity, notice I didn't say to be good, check off all the boxes, make sure we do everything perfectly, blah blah blah blah blah. He creates in us the capacity to receive his holiness that lives inside of us. And now I bet the question is, well, why don't I feel holy? And why am I having such a hard time? Well, I mean, but this, I mean, this is mind-blowing though, to think of relational rules versus, yeah, and then reinterpreting holiness not as this checklist of perfection. Well, not unless you want to be a Pharisee, which and you're never going to get it right. Then you can't. Yeah, you can't. Oh wow, and so yes. So now the question you framed it perfectly, okay? So you have this capacity for holiness, right, that God speaks, right? It creates within us, right? So why can't we do what we want to do? And why it sounds just like Romans chapter seven, right? I try and I fall flat on my face. It's while we all have flat noses because, okay, so so but here's the amazing thing. You already are holy in God's sight, okay? Rewind, okay? Just chew on that a little bit. Yeah, because once we're born again, whose life is it inside of us? That's not ours. Thank you. It's his. Well, is his life holy? Yes, it is. Yeah, yeah, so the holy life of God is already living in us. Well, why do I have such a hard time walking it out? Okay, my favorite illustration of this is something that we don't really recognize very much here because we are in a democracy, but in England they have a monarchy. That's right. So let's pick on William and Kate and all of their children, yeah? Okay, Prince George. Now when he was much younger, I saw this great picture of him. I think he was maybe three in this cute little blue, obviously British jumpsuit with a little white shirt, yeah, and a little round collar. Yes, no boy in America would be caught dead, okay? So with the little blue patent leather shoes and the whole business. Do you know what they call him? They call him Prince George. He is royalty, yeah? He doesn't even know where to show up to get his back, but he is royalty. And God forbid, but if enough people died in the line, he would be king. That's right, even though he's what is he now, seven or eight or something? You know, really, I mean, he's a kid. Yeah, you're gonna let your nine-year-old drive the car? Oh sure, I don't even want to leave him in the car. Thank you. What do we have to do, okay? So what happens is that positionally he is a prince, yeah? He's royalty. Experientially and dare I say maturity-wise, growth-wise, and may I use the word process-wise, he's very immature. When we are born again, yeah, we have the life of God in us, and God sees us as holy in his sight, yeah? Let's talk about the process of growing up. That's slow. That takes time. It takes time, and and that's where people struggle. Well, if I'm holy, why why am I still having trouble with this? Yeah, well, did you ride a bicycle the first time you got on there? Did you fall and scrape your knees and skin your nose? Oh goodness, with my nine-year-old and a five-year-old, I have this conversation almost every single day. You're not a grown-up yet, or you just have to keep trying. Of course it's not easy. Of course it's not. This my five-year-old this morning, he's he's in kindergarten, and he goes, I'm the only five-year-old in the class. Everybody's six, and he wants to be in it. And so my wife said, okay, you're six. And he goes, I'm not really six, right? That's perfect, right? Notice how on, oh, we could just stop right here and talk for the next three hours. Your five-year-old honestly knows who he really is. He just said, but I'm not really six. Yeah, you can tell him he's six all you want to, and he knows you're lying to him. Hello, adults. We're too dumb to know that we feed each other all this garbage all the time. To see the five-year-old says, but I'm not really six, Dad. Yeah, I'm not really six, Mom. Well, okay, you know, well, isn't that exactly now what we're talking about is the difference between position and process? Yeah, position in the kingdom of God. You know, John, if I drop dead right now, I would go to heaven, yeah? Not because I did everything right today, checked off all the boxes today, or have made sure that I was perfectly holy today. Why? Because I'm bought and I'm covered in the blood of Jesus, and the life of God is inside of me. So if I drop dead right now, God sees me as as holy as I'm ever going to be, yeah? In fact, the second I was born again, in God's sight, I can't even be more holy than I was at that moment because I'm received based on who Jesus is, not based on what I've done, yeah? Now based on though who Jesus is, I let the process of his life continually work out in me, and I learned to grow up, and I learned to cooperate with that holy life in me. I learned to make choices based on my love and respect and relationship again with that holy life in me, rather than on my coming up with a list of rules, right? So the relational process is what we get frustrated with, yeah? Yes, yes, and especially our friends who struggle with addiction. Oh my gosh, worked with addiction so much, and they're like, okay, I'm in, I'm out, I made it this far, I fell off the wagon. And I'd say, no, no, no, no, you did not fall off the wagon. What do you mean I didn't fall off the wagon? They would say, and I would say, no, no, no, you took a calculated leap and you jumped off the wagon. It's easier to say we fell off the wagon, but the reality is we, and every person does it, yeah, we all take calculated leaps where, and and those of us who are not dealing with addiction, this this is how we try to make it spiritual. Here's how we make it sound. We go, I don't know what happened, you know, that's just not me. And I said, blah blah blah, yeah, it is.

Me, sorry, yeah it is. Yeah, it is. You know, I really don't want you to think it's me. That's why I say that. But the reality is, yeah, that's the old man. That's the old birdie that is trying to tell the holy life of God. I want to be lord in the holy life of God. Jesus inside of us is saying, "You don't seem to understand. Bernie told me I could be lord." Yeah, and so it's that process of the old man learning to die and stay dead. I have a friend who says, "Don't play dead, stay dead." Oh yeah, yeah. If that old man's dead, just stay dead. Get in the ground, stay there, stay dead, okay? And let Jesus, the resurrected Jesus, live out his life. But that's that push and pull, and it's the difference between position and process.

Oh man, I love that so much though. Yeah, oh, that's huge. Well, because positionally, I think people—that's so exciting when you start to believe in Jesus and you go, "Yes, I got this," and then there's the growing up. There's the process that's not as exciting. Driving on 16 or 1604, driving on 1604, we'll let you know how mature you really are. Oh, church tells you nothing. Go five on the freeway and you will discover where your maturity level really is.

Yes, yeah, that is such an—I think that's such a—I that's relieving in a way because part of what you talked about is dropping the "supposed to," right? Dropping the "it was so unlike me to do this," and okay, oh no, it doesn't really like—because you keep doing it, right? And so, okay, and so that's really, that's really relieving. Yes, in a way it's also going, "Oh gosh, I have so much maturity to grow," and it requires humility.

Yes, the humility to be able to go, accurately assess where you are, yeah, and own it. Not because you want to look a certain way. I struggle with that personally, right? You want to look like everything's okay. I want to look together. Let's be honest, I want you to like me. Yeah, you know, I want Greg over here behind the cameras to like me, you know, I mean. Think about it—we we want people to like us. Well, the reality is, how about we learn first to recognize how much Jesus truly loves us? Then, based on that love, what if I actually begin to like me?

Yeah, wow, because of my relationship with him. Yeah, and then I don't have to worry about, "Do you like me?" because I'm going to be much more concerned on, "How can I bless you?" Yeah, so it stops becoming about me. It begins to become about you. Yeah, and let me tell you, that really shifts in this holy thing. That shifts us into a whole new realm of walk, right? Because so many people, they're so worried about, "Oh my gosh, I got to be holy," I got another scribes and Pharisees again, you know? If I'm really walking with Jesus, there are times I choose to do something or maybe not do something, not based on me at all, based on the love of God in me for you. Yeah, and that releases me from worrying about me. And guess what? Holiness then becomes the natural overflow of a life relationship because I'm not spending all my time thinking about me.

Yeah, wow, you get out of the way and you let the holiness take over. Well, yeah, wow, yeah, because it's really—I mean, think about it. God says, "I am holy," right? He says, "I am holy. Be holy. I'm holy. Be holy. I am holy." What else does it say about God? It says God is love. So holiness and love, they're right there. They're intimately married. They're married. And see, God—let's think about this. God is the only person in the universe that is totally congruent within himself, right?

Yeah, yeah, there's nothing inside the character of God that's fighting back and forth. You know how we fight back and forth? "Oh my gosh, why don't you say that one?" And, uh, yeah, calm down, Birdie. Come to patience. Patience is the fruit of the Spirit. I don't know why you had to do that, but you did, okay? So, so really, what do we do? We have these inward conversations because we're incongruent with ourselves. Where's that coming from? The pull between position and process. The more the process goes on, what does Paul say? "We're being changed from what glory to glory by the Spirit of the Lord." Notice he didn't say, "You're being changed from one mud puddle to—" You're being changed from glory to glory by the Spirit of the Lord. So the process is to bring us to the position, man, which we'll never see this side of heaven. Yeah, but that's okay. And even in heaven, don't you think we'll constantly be growing as we're amazed at who God is?

Yeah, so so the whole thing is to form us into the image of Jesus. Yeah, well, what was Jesus doing all the time? Yeah, he was number one, honoring the Father. Number two, walking in obedience. And what was that obedience? Loving everybody around him and healing the sick, raising the dead, driving religious people crazy.

Oh yeah, I love that one again. So the next time some religious—yeah, looks at you and tells you how terrible you are, just think, "Oh my gosh, I matched Jesus."

Yeah, wow. Oh, Bernie, that is—I like—just it's so cool and it's so clear and it's so accessible. And I like, I'm so thankful for that. And as, okay, so I want to make sure that I talk to you about this, okay? As we—I mean, we're in the middle of a pandemic. I shouldn't say the middle, right? We are—so it depends on who's trying to manipulate numbers, but it's done. Fair enough, right? So we've come through this thing, right, that we've been dealing with that has kind of cut us off. And so with this holiness and with everything we're experiencing in our environment, what role does our mental health play in all of that, right? And so how does that connect to the position and the process that's going on within?

Oh gee, I'm so glad you asked because over in Corinthians it says, "We have the mind of Christ." So the same God that looked at you and said, "Be holy," and created in you the capacity to receive the holiness of God—think about it now—what else did he create in you? The capacity to have the mind, the mind, wow, of Christ. I don't think anybody was more mentally healthy than Jesus, right?

Right, so if you don't like what your mind's doing, why don't you ask him what his mind is doing?

Oh, okay, wow, yeah. "For my thoughts are not your thoughts," says the Lord, "nor are your ways like my ways. What did he say? My thoughts are higher than your thoughts. My ways are higher than your ways." So we can ask him. As Paul said in Romans, "Be transformed by the renewing of your mind."

Man, so well, how do you do that? Yeah, okay, like, give me a list. Step one, yes, two, step three, okay? So I learned this from a friend. I wish I could say it was original, but it's not. If you don't like the thought you're having, have another thought. Think about it now. Oh man, I just don't like how I'm thinking. Well, replace it. Um, my cut—I have a flat tire on my truck, and I do drive a truck, okay? So I live on a ranch, have to have a truck. I have a flat tire on my truck. Well, I don't go out there day after day and bemoan the fact that I have a flat tire on my truck. I change the tire, right? Okay, or I call somebody that's bigger and stronger than I am, and but I don't moan over my flat tire. I get a new tire. Guess what? Our old man thoughts are gonna be down. They're gonna be sad. They're gonna be limited. They're going to talk about how terrible I am. They're going to be full of guilt. They're going to sound just like the devil. "You're not good enough. Nobody loves you. Everybody hates you. Go eat worms." I mean, you know, we all know those thoughts, right?

Yeah, well, what happens if I change my thoughts like I change flat tires? What if I take that thought and say, "You know what? I'm going to make a choice here." Yeah, it may take me a while to get you out of my head, but I am going to choose. It's very intentional. "I just wish I thought differently." Well, that's kind of like wishing you would lose weight or wishing you would start working out on the rowing machine. You got to go buy a rowing machine, then you have to make yourself get on the crazy thing, okay? So what happened? I have to take the tire off. I have to purposefully take it over here. Now, the good part about a tire is that it doesn't have a mind of its own, but our thoughts do, yeah? See, the tire doesn't get up and try to go get back on. Yeah, try to retire, okay? It'll stay there. Yeah, our thoughts—it's the old man thing. Remember, the old man gets up and says, "Jesus, I don't want you to be lord." Jesus says, "No, you don't understand. Bernie told me I'm—I am bored here. You have to move over." Our thoughts, they have been entrenched in us for so long. I I call them old tapes. They're old tapes. I know we don't do tapes anymore, but they, you know, yeah, see my gray? So old tapes. So what do we do? I purposely look at this thought and I say, "That thought doesn't sound like Jesus to me. In fact, that thought pretty much sounds like the enemy to me." That's right. So that's not the thought Jesus would have. What thought would Jesus have? So if I want to know the thoughts of Jesus, where do you think I would look for them? I mean, Scripture is a really good place.

Yeah, thanks, that's a really good place. And if you don't know what to look for, look—go get your red letter version and look for anything in red. Well, because that's the story from people that saw it, the eyewitnesses, and the people recording his words, and people going through, "This is what he said. This is what he did." Yes, okay. So remember what he said to the woman, uh, that was taken in adultery, right? They lit all the scribes and Pharisees. "Oh, we're gonna get her. We're gonna get her." Jesus says, "That's fine. Whoever's without sin, throw the first rock." Well, they all left. Yeah, and Jesus said, "What? Where are your accusers? Nobody's condemning you?" And she said, "No, sir." He said, "Neither do I condemn you." Now listen what he said. Remember, he's speaking, yeah? "Go and—what? Sin no more." Sin no more. He spoke it and it created in her the capacity to begin the process and the walk in the position.

Wow, see, so he said, "Go." He wasn't shoving her away saying, "Go on your way, go live your life," and as I speak, "Sin no more," I'm creating in you the capacity to not fall into that trap. Wow, did she fall into traps? So she walked it out. She does. She had hello back and forth, up and down, shore, but he created in her the capacity to keep growing, man, because divine life, yeah, is now in her, right?

Yeah, well, and what you talk about is this idea that is so good for people because as somebody who who's dealt with mental health issues, depression, anxiety, that kind of thing, yeah, you you talk about in such clear terms, which I appreciate, because sometimes it can get real, real—uh, like you can't grab onto it. Nobody understands. Dr. Eaves, even doctors, yeah, you know, they like to throw around all these big words. There's been times I was in a hospital. I heard one of my colleagues explain something to this patient, yeah, and my patient was in the bed next to him. Oh, don't hold it against me. I'm retired now. Nobody can hold this against me, okay? So my colleague left, and you could just feel the confusion in the room. So when I was through with my patient, I walked over to the other bed. I said, "Do you still have questions?" And their eyes were like—they, you know, doctors walk, and they go, "Do you have any questions?" Yeah, well, by the time they're through using all the doctor slang to explain stuff, you don't even know what your questions are, right? You and you have new—like, you got to go. I gotta read a book to have a question. What do you mean? I don't know what to ask you. Yeah, well, that's how the scribes and Pharisees were, and that's how religion—oh, and now I'm gonna meddle, okay? That's how religious people are today. Yeah, they've got an answer for everything that's got so much legal ease, legal religious ease in a, yeah, that nobody knows what they're saying, right? But Jesus was very simple. "It's follow me." Yeah, I can—I go, okay, I get it. He kept it so simple. "Follow me. Walk with me. Go and sin no more." Yeah, I mean—

He didn't say go read, you know, go read all twenty-something chapters of Leviticus. No, no, but he created the capacity for her to do that. Exactly. So that choice, the choice which we have, we have the choice. Yes, we do. We have the choice to replace those thoughts. So whether it's anxiety, depression, even if it's trauma, addiction, we can replace the thoughts. Now here's the other thing that's so powerful. It's not just about us replacing thoughts. It's about us working in a relationship with the living Jesus in our lives who is helping us replace the thoughts. Yeah, it's a relational replacement. Mm-hmm. Can I say that again? That was good. I never, that's really good. That's really good. It's relational replacement. It's not like, okay, I'm going to make a list of my ten thoughts and I'm going to replace them and I'm going to work really hard on it. It's relational. It's very relational. Yeah. Jesus is helping me learn how does he think about this situation? The other thing too that we forget is, you know, just because my feelings are going crazy doesn't necessarily mean that's the truth. That's so true. Okay, I mean, our feelings can go absolutely bonkers. I can feel anxious about all kinds of stuff, but that doesn't necessarily mean that my circumstances are actually anxiety provoking, right? I might just be feeling anxious inside. Yeah. Or my spiritual mom used to say it like this. She used to say, you know, Satan is a skunk and he really stinks things up. Yeah, but Jesus, you and Jesus together can run the skunk off. But you would say the skunk is long gone but the stink is still there. Oh, that's so true. So the reality is if I side with Jesus and, you know, what is, what does the word say? Submit yourself to God, humble yourself to God, resist the devil and he will what? Flee from you. I've submitted myself to God. I've humbled myself. I've resisted the devil. So what has happened to the devil? The Bible says he's gone. He's gone. Well, then why is the stink still there? Because he's a skunk. Wow. He's a skunk. Yeah. So will the old thoughts still try to come in? Will, duh, do you think he's just gonna sing, okay, well, I won't fight anymore? How stupid do you have to be to fight God? Yeah, it'd be pretty stupid. So Satan has been this stupid for an eternity. You think he's just gonna walk away from you right now? He's, but he's a skunk. He's gone. The stink is still there. Plow through the stink. Eventually, I had a husky one time that had a round with a skunk. Yeah, and you know, it takes a long time for that stink to go away. Yes, but eventually it did. Yes. Eventually my husky, although he was black and white, eventually he did not smell like a skunk, right? Wow. Okay. And so this lingering stink, I think so much, and I think of people thinking about how they're triggered. I think about people reliving trauma through, yes, through certain senses, right? Right. And so for a lot of us, I think me, it seems like we're fighting the stink. Yes. And we, some people, you still have to make the decision, right? You still have to make the decision to replace thoughts. That's part of it. You do have to choose to go down the process. You have to choose the process. But for some of us, we're fighting this lingering stink. Oh, so let's talk about the, can we, can we keep going? Can we keep talking? Okay, this is gold. Okay. So let's talk about fighting, especially with trauma. Let's talk about trauma. Okay. I am a trauma survivor. So I have treated trauma and I have been treated for trauma. So I come at it from both angles. So when, again, we're talking about position and process, you are totally free in Jesus. That is your position. The process of walking through traumatic memory, listen, I've seen people, I've seen Jesus just show up with people and zap, and it's like bang, they're done. Okay? Wow. Praise the Lord. They got their miracle. And it is a miracle, okay? And it's awesome. And it does happen. And it's like healing a broken leg. I mean, it's like it's like an arm coming back like that. It is a miracle. Oh yeah. It's awesome. And we all, because we're a microwave society, we all want the miracle. We don't want the process. There's actually a downside to a miracle, okay? And here's the downside to the miracle is that I can't tell you how I got whole. Wow. Okay. That's a word. Can't tell you. Okay. That's a book. The downside to a miracle. Yeah. The downside to the miracle, I can't tell you how. Okay. Remember the blind man over in John, right? Jesus does what? Now listen, you want Jesus to meet you? I'm sorry. He walks up to this guy. He spits on the ground, makes blood, smears it on his face and says, go wash. Mm-hmm. Oh yeah. Thanks, Jesus. Jesus blessed me. I mean, you know, this is not religious. Yeah. Relational. Yes. Now think about it. Says that God, how did God make man? He formed him out of the dust of the ground. What was Jesus doing? He created eyeballs for him. Wow. Out of the mud. Anyway, that's the side that's a scientist. Okay. That's a bonus. Yeah. That's just the one. Okay. So so what does he do? He says go wash, right? And then the scribes and Pharisees are right, now never mind the guy can see. He was born blind. Religious. Listen, I'm telling you, religious people are like this. Yeah. All they care about is what rule did you break? Amen. And they totally missed the amazing power of God. Yeah. I don't care that you're saying who did that to you and how did they do it? And they kept asking, how did it happen? How did it happen? And he couldn't tell me. So I don't know. He made mud. He put it on my eyes. He told me to go wash in my seat. And I've told you guys again and again and again, okay? But he couldn't tell him how it happened. Yeah. That's the downside of the miracle, man. Let me, so let's talk about trauma memory. Oh yeah. I've been in my own therapy years and years ago, right? You have to get yourself squared away before you get help anybody else. Get squared away. And so when it comes to trauma and processing trauma, I didn't get the miracle. I walked through. Oh yeah. You know, those weekly, sometimes bi-weekly, sometimes tri-weekly, oh my gosh, I think I need to see my therapist again sessions. You know what happens? I can tell you the process. I can tell you the good, the bad, the ugly. I can tell you the times I didn't believe it was ever going to happen. I can tell you the breakthrough times, right? I can tell you how hard it was. I can talk about loneliness. I can talk about praying and feeling like I'm just beating my head against the wall. I can talk about, oh my gosh, I remember when that happened and it was like light bulbs came on. I can tell you the process because I've walked it. Yeah. So sometimes in the mercy of God, he walks us through the process so that we can have compassion on people and walk with them through the process. That's beautiful. See, so so God in his wisdom, yeah, he, you know, we talk about mental health. I want mental health. I hope you're ready for a lifelong journey. Yeah. Because it's the process of growing up. And so I think about my kids, and one of the things that my nine-year-old is is doing sometimes is like something bad will happen and he'll say, you can't understand. This happened. You don't know what it's like to be nine. And well, I mean, that's that's what he's not saying that, but he's saying that he's, you can understand because from his viewpoint, I've been thirty-eight. You were never nine. Yeah. I was, Dad. I've always been your dad. Dad, what's the matter with you? But part of the beauty of the process is I go, I know, I know what it's like because I experienced it. And so if I was nine and all of a sudden thirty-eight, it's a miracle. But but the downside to the miracle, yeah, is that I could never walk him through it. I could never, I can, the compassion, he said compassion. I could never really have compassion because I can just go, I don't know, I it just happened, which is exactly why Jesus became human. Exactly why Jesus became human. Why do you have compassion on your son? Oh, I I've been a boy. Yeah. And and there's another reason too. He is your son. Yeah. So you've got a double thing going on. Not only have you been there, you in a very real sense gave him his life. Wow. God, right? Father God, you are born again, yeah, has given us life. John said, and this life is in his son, right? So as the Father loves the Son, and then Jesus turned around and says, the Father has sent me. I am sending you. Look at the, see the process here. Jesus even said, Father, oh, it's over in John seventeen. Let them know that you love them just like you love me. Now that'll blow you right out on the water. But our heavenly Father loves you just like he loves Jesus. So but Jesus had to walk the process through. Yeah. Jesus was a carpenter. Jesus had to learn to use a hammer. Yes. Do you think he ever hit his thumb? He had to. Thank you. He was human and divine. Exactly. But he probably never said what we said when we hit our thumb. Okay. So so but that's what is, he understands the process. He under, he had to keep his room clean. Yeah. And you think you had trouble with your siblings? How would you like Jesus to be your big brother? He never gets in trouble. Really? I mean, hey, let's all go, let's fool Mom and Dad. Jesus is the one that says, I don't think that's a good idea. Oh, Jesus. Yeah. So but what happened? He knows the process. He doesn't know it up here. He lived the process. You think we've been rejected? I've never been put on a cross. I've never been flogged. I mean, I've never been like hauling out to the edge of town and start to push him over the cliff. So all of the process of the walk between position and that walk into maturity, Jesus did it. So when we go to him and we say, oh, I'm having trouble with these thoughts, he understands. Yeah. Because guess what? He had to surrender his thoughts too. The difference is that we don't always surrender our thoughts, but he perfectly surrendered his thoughts. But that doesn't mean there wasn't a battle, right? Why do you think he was out in the wilderness forty days? Yeah. It was a forty-day battle. Wow. And every instant he's having to choose, right? He's having to choose, having to choose, not my will. We think of him praying in the garden, not my will. I'm telling you, I believe that he was saying, not my will, from probably four or five years old, okay? Because because what was happening, something inside of him, right? Yeah, knew who he was. Even when you're four or five, you know, I don't think about it. I'm an artist. My first degree's in graphic art and design. I mean, just give me a crayon and let me create something. But my second favorite thing were horses. I'm a country girl at heart. Yeah. I had to get to my fifties before I could get out in the country and have my horses, right? But it was who I was created to be. Yeah. So we know way down deep inside, it's that bend that God has created John to be. So nevertheless, Jesus had to learn to surrender his thoughts. Yeah. Which is why when we're struggling with surrendering our thoughts, we have a safe place to go. Wow. He receives us. He receives us with compassion just like you do with your son. He really does understand. He's not just saying it. Yeah. But it's even better. Not only does he understand, he has the power to change you. See, so as much as you can share with your son and help him make better choices, you don't have power like God has. Yeah. Yeah. So think about it. Father can help the son, but with Jesus, if we surrender, he has the power to change us, change our thoughts. All right, Birdie, I could talk to you forever. Okay. I know. You know, the mind can only receive what the seat can endure. So so, um, yeah, they they may have fallen asleep or something or falling over. I promise you, nobody has fallen asleep. This is incredible, mind-blowing stuff. I got a guy to have you back. I gotta have you back and chat with you. Happy, happy to come back and chat about anything you want to chat about. If I know about it. Yeah. But if I don't know about it, I'll just say I don't know. You got the wrong person. No, okay. So here's what you don't want to have me come talk about cooking. Okay. No cooking. We can talk about horses. Okay. We can talk about horses.

Trucks we can talk about hay bales. We can talk about Jesus all day long. We talk about mental health. I'm good. Yeah, no cooking. Okay, okay, no cooking and probably no technology. All right, no technology or cooking with Birdie. Hey, there we go. Oh, Dr. Roberta Jones Hall, otherwise known as Birdie. Thank you for being here. Thank you guys for shooting and being a part of it. This was awesome. Thank you for hanging out with us and joining the conversation. Click the subscribe button wherever you're listening to this to get more Better on the Inside. Hey, I love y'all and we'll have you back soon.

Hey, yeah, John. So yeah, that was a great interview there with Roberta Jones Hall. Man, I just some great perspectives there. What was that takeaway for you, kind of listening to it the second time around?

Yeah, the thing that stood out to me this time was her talking about holiness because so often holiness becomes this like sacred, untouchable perfection, and she really grounded it in real life and speaking the idea of Jesus. You know, God said, "Be holy as I am holy," as opposed to an admonition from an angry parent or a God on high casting thunderbolts. It's actually speaking the capacity for holiness in you, the capacity to be more like Jesus in creation. "Be holy as I am holy," and now that capacity is within us as believers in Jesus. And it's like, okay, I can do this. Jesus has given me the capacity to fill. And so that was something I listened to on this time. Always the downside of a miracle always blows my mind, but the holiness thing was what stood out to me this time.

Yeah, of looking at "be holy as I am holy" as a capacity as opposed to like a mandate or a challenge. It's like you are built for this. You are grounded in this. You have permission now. I'm giving you permission to be holy, as opposed to, "I have the mandate. I'm smacking you with this ruler. You know, do this or you fail and you suck at life." You know, man, what a great perspective. What a healthy perspective for us as we're looking at our relationship with God, Abba Father, and embracing that. And John, honestly, my favorite part about this is it's just one of the many conversations that you're having, really addressing a completely different perspective. Digital, how it works, embracing the soul care idea among church staff in general, and embracing a healthier mindset as we are literally pouring ourselves into others. We ourselves need to be filled. And so I love that challenge, and thank you for doing that, man.

Hey, we're gonna put information to subscribe to John's podcast, Better on the Inside. We'll put it in the show notes and push it out via different ways, but would love for you and the people out there to listen to some of the stuff that he's talking about. Share it, you know, even outside the digital ministry perspective because it reaches a much larger church perspective. And if our churches are healthy, our people will be healthy, and our ministry will be healthy. And as much as we try to, as much as we try to bang the drum that we've got to work sixty, seventy, eighty, ninety hours a week, oftentimes it's the healthy approach that actually allows God to do what he's going to do in that space instead of us feeling like we have to force something to happen, you know?

The best advice, oh man, listen, this is the best advice I've been given in the past two years. Angela Craig, mutual friend here through Digital, the Church Digital, and she's getting involved in Digital Church Network. She said, and actually it was about the Digital Church Network, and because I had cast her a while ago, "Hey, I'm thinking about doing this. What do you think?" And she said to me, she said, "Jeff, don't run. Don't run in front of God." And it was like, "Dang it, Angela, you're right." And so I did. I slowed it down. I prayed about it. And instead of being the guy at the end of the dock jumping in the water when nobody's around me, I was like, "Hey, let's go together towards this." And God started opening some incredible doors that I don't think I could do myself. And so a lot of that is in this mindset of doing things healthily and in control and allowing God to work through you instead of working for God. And so that would be the challenge.

Better on the Inside, John Powell. John, thank you for jumping in here with this. I appreciate it. But man, Lily, any closing thoughts as we're landing the plane here?

No, man, Jeff. Thank you so much for letting me be a part of the network. I love doing this, and I'm so excited about the vision of what's going on. It's not just the thing that we're doing just to do. Like, there's really a mission and a vision behind this. So thank you for letting me be a part of that. And I love the idea of the learning of right, not getting ahead of God. In fact, like, the win, the win is the biggest problem when it comes to God, and that's because we're impatient because our lives are short. He's eternal. So the win, but I'll write about that, Jeff. I'm gonna write something about that.

So look for content from John on the Church Digital blog. Subscribe to the podcast. We'll put links to both those in the show notes, and you definitely want to keep in touch and share the stuff that he's talking about as he's trying to help all of us as staff embrace a healthier mindset. And we're going to land the plane right there. And so this, for John, Better on the Inside, this is Jeff with the Church Digital and Digital Church Network. I still geek out anytime I get to say that, with the Digital Church Network. That's awesome. We're going to land the plane. Hey, I hope you enjoyed the show, and we'll see you next time here at the Church Digital podcast for the next takeover. I'll tell you who's coming up next week. See you later. Have a good one.