EP238: DAOs, NFTs and Decentralization

And so, you know, it's just one of those things where I would say no question by 2030, you're going to see, and I'm not saying I know like I have a crystal ball, I just feel abundantly confident that by 2030, based on data, based on the things that I know are being developed, that you're going to see individuals engaging with this technology regularly. You'll see institutions having fully adjusted their infrastructure to handle it. And long before 2030, countries will have adjusted international monetary movement to engage with this system. Welcome to the Church Digital Podcast. Through this podcast, we'll talk about the technological innovations within the church. But more than tech for tech itself, we'll address deeper questions.

Is disciple making possible digitally? How should we approach the digital mission field? Can a biblically grounded church operate in digital space? Oh, and where does the metaverse fit into all this? Whether you're a big or small church, an established church, or a startup church plant, the Church Digital's goal is to help churches like yours learn to be a multiplying church, digitally and physically. Our heart? That churches like yours will discover a newfound focus on disciple making that will revolutionize your church. And now, here's your host, Jeff Reed. All right. Hey, everybody. Welcome to the next episode of the Church Digital Podcast. It's a pleasure to be here with you today. My name is Jeff Reed, founder of the Digital Church, excuse me, co-founder of the Digital Church Network, founder of the Church Digital.

I've been doing this podcast close to 250 episodes. I think this is like 240, 239. Like, it's crazy how long we've been doing this together and just all these conversations we've been having. This is theoretically episode 239. And so, love this process, this path. But you know what's interesting is I'm so busy talking about myself all the time, I never actually get to ask, how are you doing? Like, tell me, what's going on? Yeah, okay, that's weird because, like, I can talk to you because this is a one-way communication. But we can't dialogue because, you know, unless you call me, like, we actually can't talk or social media. So, hey, let's do this. I'm going to give you my cell phone number. It's 484-324-8724.

And on social, that's 484-324-8724. If you're a telephone alphabet, it's number four, the church. And my social media, the church digital everywhere. And I'm also, my personal social media is DeerFedge. It's Jeff Reed backwards, D-E-E-R-F-F-E-J. So, yeah, hey, listen, I want to hear from you. Reach out. Let me know what's going on. I mean, listen, you want to talk digital ministry? You want to talk metaverse? You want to just talk life? I don't care, man. I would love, excuse me, man or woman? I don't care, woman. Okay, that was a little weird, but let's just make it awkward. I would love to hear from you on that. So, hey, we've got another episode centered around blockchain and crypto. Last time, just a couple weeks ago, we did an intro on blockchain and cryptocurrencies.

Really just a very high-level overview. Church leaders, we don't understand this technology. We know nothing about it. Don't be embarrassed, but let's take a minute. Let's lean in. Let's hear maybe what can be and how this church, this technology can help revolutionize the church. And this is where we are. We're digging into this technology right now, blockchain and crypto. We're going to do a deeper dive in this episode centered around some of the decentralization tendencies that will happen as a result of this technology and how it's utilizing DAOs and smart contracts. Now, some really interesting things are going to come out of this. Listen, if I was starting a microchurch network, I would launch it as a DAO.

If I was a physical church, I would maybe even consider experimenting by launching a DAO here or there. And just to be honest, I, Jeff Reed, am working right now towards launching one of our pet projects through Digital Church Network as a DAO. You may remember a couple months ago, Joey Santos was on the podcast talking about church in a VR bar. Yeah, we're moving forward towards making that a DAO and allowing people to invest in it and be part of the ministry of what's happening, not just financially, but actually execution. Like when you invest through the smart track, you're given the opportunity to do something. And so this is what we are, we're looking for through a church in the VR bar.

But more than that, this is really the opportunity of a DAO to empower individuals, to move the power away from corporations and move it to individuals. And this is really what we want to start to get into. You're going to hear through this round table. A couple weeks ago, we had John Dangler from Well Built Bikes and Brave Cities, Jason Dukes from the Decent Co. Both these guys came on, did a round table months ago, but we did it through the podcast, a very basic conversation. And this conversation, we ramp up a little bit. We start talking more specifically DAOs, NFTs, smart contracts, decentralization, what a decentralized church can and should look like, what it could look like, and not in the future, today.

And so it's starting to get a little more picture of what the future church will look like as a result of these meta-birth of technologies. Now, the fact is, and we talk about it in this episode, whether or not blockchain and crypto is going to be effective is irrelevant. Sociologists have told us, mathematically, the percentage of what's happening in that space now, like we're past the tipping point. In many ways, some of these cryptocurrencies have moved more money than MasterCard and Visa in the past year. So it's not, we're not validating whether or not this technology is going to happen. It is already happening. What's the interesting question is, is how will the church react and respond to what's happening everywhere else?

And so this is up for conversation. And this is what I would love for you to jump in on as we're going through this. And hey, you want to, you want to call me up? You want to hit me up on social media? You want to ask questions on blockchain, crypto, any of the metaverse stuff? Would love to. Once again, 484-324-8724. Or hit me up on DearFedge or TheChurchDigital on any other social. Would love to, would love to get in it with you and work through some of this. But for now, let's do it. Let's move on to the episode. We got John Dangler from Brave Cities. We've got Jason Dukes from The Decent Co. And myself, Jeff, with The Church Digital and Digital Church Network. In a conversation that I'm calling DAOs, Smart Contracts, and The Decentralized Church.

Okay, everybody, here you go. Awesome. Hey, everybody. We've got a roundtable here coming up. And we're talking with John Dangler and Jason Dukes, the J&J crowd. Jeff Reed here, so I don't know if that's J-Cube. And that just got awkward. J-Cubed. J-Cubed, so good. Maybe took that one a little too far. I regret that in this moment right here. But, hey, listen, we're going to do some of these. It's interesting. These roundtables talking about blockchain and crypto and some of the decentralization. We've gotten more positive feedback on these on demand. And so, like the first one, we recorded back in June. We'll put the link in the YouTube. And so you can go back and watch that if you want. It's one of the largest viewed videos we've done.

We've gotten more positive feedback, more comments off it. But it's interesting. Even that one, too. Like in the moment when we were trying to record it live, nobody showed up. And so I kind of wonder if people are interested about this, but they don't want to be put in the spot because they really have no understanding and no grounding about what some of this blockchain, crypto, this technology is. And it's one of the things that I love. And I'll position even myself in that spot. I have a call it an elementary understanding. But as we're trying to figure out how we can utilize this new metaverse technology, how we can utilize this for the church, I've got a lot more questions than answers. And so, once again, I find myself kind of positioning myself as the learner, wanting to kind of observe maybe what it actually is, what could be, as we start to work with pioneering churches and pioneering individuals that are wanting to not only, you know, I'll quote John Dingler here a little bit.

Not just think outside of the box, but burn that box to the ground, smash it down to ash and do something completely. You're not actually quoting me. You're quoting someone else. That was not you? I never said that. I'm like, I wouldn't have said that. But I think someone said that trying to describe me, which is fascinating. That was, you're right. That was Lucas Pulley. Oh, really? Drop names here. I think that was Lucas. Maybe it was Lucas. I've heard it multiple times, actually. And it may not even have been about you. I'm just making crap up. I don't know, man. Listen, this is great. But I'm definitely excited about this. So, if you want to go back, we did a blockchain and crypto roundtable.

We really talked about the big picture of what blockchain and crypto is. For this conversation, we want to dig down into NFTs, into DAOs. And so, like, there's this completely different subsection we're going to get dirty in. But, you know, if you don't go back and watch the old one for the larger conversation. But let's do this. Jason Dukes is the expert communicator when it comes towards blockchain and crypto. So, hey, I'm going to ask the man, can you summarize? Kind of like simple, couple minutes, big picture, blockchain and crypto. What are we talking about when we talk about this blockchain and cryptocurrencies? What is this stuff actually all about? Well, I think, I mean, the simple version is that the blockchain is a, it's a technology.

And more technically, it's a tech stack, which I can explain in a second. But it's a financial technology in particular. And Bitcoin is what led it off. And Bitcoin was created, at least on the surface, was created for peer-to-peer exchange of currency so that the bank system could be bypassed. When people criticized it to say it needed to bypass the bank system for fraudulent reasons, I think it was more because people wanted to see more decentralization outside of the main banking system. And so the blockchain became like this checkbook, basically, that lives in a web type of space, in a cloud type of space, and links together transactions so that all transactions kind of play off each other.

And there's various blockchains now. There's not just Bitcoin anymore. There's the Ethereum blockchain and many more. But cryptocurrency is the currency that's used in the midst of what happens with that blockchain. So, for example, if you can imagine a blockchain like Bitcoin is Asia and Ethereum is North America and South America for, you know, to be American-centric like we typically are as Americans. But, you know, if you can imagine it like a continent, then it's the currency of that continent, so to speak. It's just that from a blockchain and even on into a metaverse mindset, which they don't necessarily go together, but they definitely are being created to live together and participate together.

And so you can imagine it's like basically a geography that doesn't have borders. It's a community of people that connect or engage with that technology of the blockchain and then use crypto to be able to exchange value on that continent, metaphorically speaking. So, hopefully, that's a simple way to understand it. I say it that way only because people typically think it's just funny money or monopoly money. There's nothing real to it. And there have been, even since our last roundtable, three particular things that have happened that certainly could make people feel that way. I just would say that if you're reading the news and you're seeing those things, you're not really getting the true picture of what this technology and what the usage and utilization of it was really created for.

That's interesting. You know, we saw some of that. And obviously, I think in the past month, I feel like we've seen Bitcoin take a hit, a significant hit, I believe. And so when we're looking at this technology, you know, what you're alluding to is it's not a short run. It's not a reactionary. It's actually, you know, a long tale, a long play. You know, John, and you've been a, you know, a vocal proponent of some of this stuff, even in the last one and other conversations we've had. When you look at the church or maybe even some of the decentralized things that you're doing with Tampa Underground and outside of Tampa, what, when you look at this technology, how do you see churches or how do you see people utilizing it?

Interesting. There, I do see opportunities for the church. I don't see a ton of what I think is a very obvious overlap with the church. So what I think might be a, for just thinking about who your audience would be, what I think might be a more appropriate way to frame this is to invert this. So I actually would say that I think what we're seeing, so like, let's just take a DAO. Okay, so we can get into what a DAO is, but I'll just give you like a DAO is something built on the blockchain made possible by this NFT smart contract. But it's an innovative, disruptive structure that allows cooperation toward a community's goals, shared goals, without layers, needless layers of hierarchy or third parties or trust or centralization, right?

And so what I think is interesting is that if you look at the history of the people of God, from the inception of the church in Acts, what we see is a distributed body. Like Jesus followers, some have called the church or the way or Paul called the body. And I would say, what it has been is a distributed structure with these shared goals and aligned, let's say, protocol that is the ethos of the kingdom of God that is not predicated or that doesn't acknowledge some centralized leadership that builds itself in all places with a diversity that makes it resilient because there is no head to take out. And it has created a movement, a kingdom movement that has become a decentralized movement, which in many ways is a decentralized, autonomous organization, an innovative and disruptive structure that allows for cooperation toward the community's goals, their prayer, may your kingdom come, may your will be done here on earth as it is in heaven.

And what's crazy to me is what we're seeing with DAOs, the emergence of these entities, these decentralized, autonomous organizations. Now, these are forming for all kinds of reasons, right? There's a DAO that's being built to start a new city. There's a DAO being – there's a bunch of them that want to buy sports teams. There's one that wants to buy the original Blockbuster. There's a bunch of people that are doing it as investment DAOs. There's people that are coming together to buy, like, cabins and Airbnb type things so that members have places – decentralized places to stay all over the world for itinerant kind of working Web3 workers or whatever. There's a million reasons. So you just take an online community that has shared values and goals and says we're going to do something and we're going to use these tools to organize, to pool resources.

You know, some will describe a DAO as a Discord server with a bank account. It's like it's an online community that can move funds but that doesn't rely on trust or power centers or these things just like the early church. And I would say what we're seeing is this is the same technology of the early church but now because of the emergence of the blockchain, we actually have this ledger of record that has a base layer of truth that makes for – that actually – that removes a lot of the challenges for, like, let's say, the priests and the leaders and the principalities and powers. And now actually makes, like, something like a belief in the priesthood of all believers using, like, the church's language possible where every individual can now download a node of the protocol, run it on their personal machine, verify every transaction and piece that's going on, know exactly what's happening.

And by the way, if you take any one node out, the overall system is fine. It's basically negligible. It's almost irrelevant, right? And so I look at that and I go, this is what we've always been praying for. And when we pray, your kingdom come, your will be done, God is, I believe, giving us a gift in the form of this technology going, everything we've been talking about is now made possible and scalable. And the church is largely sleeping on this technology, which baffles me because it's the exact idea. And I think the reason is because the church has gone wrong toward centralization, toward the ethos of Babylon since, really since the Roman Empire. And, and, and, and we've been on the wrong path and no longer can recognize the, like, the makeup of this kingdom model.

But the, the, let's say the longing for the church that is like in us, you know, people talk about like the God-shaped hole in your heart. I don't know if I like use that kind of language, but I'm saying there is a longing in us to be part of a purposeful community, to lock arms with people towards shared goals, to build something shoulder to shoulder and look around the world and people are working shoulder to shoulder to buy Blockbuster. They're working shoulder to shoulder to fund NFT projects, shoulder to shoulder, and they're building and forging real, intentional, scaled communities across all kinds of demographics and geographies made possible by this interesting thing called the Ethereum blockchain.

And, and, and I am in awe of it. And I go, similar to when I go to a 12-step meeting and I'm like, there's more like of the kingdom of God going on in this meeting in the basement of the church than the meeting that goes on in the upstairs of the church, like on Sunday. Like, this is more representative of everything I've ever heard Jesus say or stand for. The spirit of God is more present here. Similarly, I feel that way when I look at the technology and the communities forming, godless as they may be in explicit, explicit word or aim. Maybe the functioning of them is more close to the early church than anything that I see the people of God doing and calling church today. And I hope that that may, so I don't see a lot of it and that's what's baffling me.

I'm going, guys, do you, we're missing this entirely and we're going, we're going to regret every second we are wasting. We're about 10 minutes into this broadcast and he's already dropped like five controversial nuggets. John Dengler in typical form there. Ladies and gentlemen, John Dengler. So Jason, let me ask, John, one of the favorite things that you said there was, you know, purposeful. You know, and I've often said, pastor, don't be upset people are not in your building. Be upset that people have no spiritual purpose when they're not in your building. Or when they are. It feels like, or, you can go there if you want. I'm going to, I'm going to assume, I'm going to hope for the best. You got fun.

So part of this is, you know, do they, do they have purpose or, you know, I'm actually curious because Jason, you, you have these conversations with churches. Like when you have that type of conversation, when you walk up to a, you know, a mega church, a giga church and say, man, you need to blow this thing up and really start to think more decentralized and more focused outside of the building. I'm guessing those conversations don't always go well. What are, what are the, some of the tensions that you see churches have when you're talking to them about this? Well, it's a great question. I mean, between 2004 and 2009, and I'm just using those years for my experiences previously, um, I would say I, I wasn't as diplomatic, uh, um, and, and I probably frustrated a good number of people, I think, um, and then again, between 15 and 20, I had similar experience here in the Nashville area, but, um, I, I say that just to give context to say, I think for a long time to, to affirm, in my opinion, uh, in my agreement, what John said for so long, since the time before, I mean, you'd go back to Eden, right?

Like even G, even God, the father telling them that he was giving them the chance to be a part of leadership, to be a part of oversight, to be a part of what he was really doing. I mean, that's a decentralized mindset. It's a, it's an open source, decentralized way and, and disciple making disciples, especially the way that Jesus did in his rhythms are completely decentralized. And so as I'm having those conversations, the first thing I've been doing is, and I did it oddly enough in the last five days, I did it with a pastor in a consulting meeting. And I did it with an NFT client. That's a creator of music, a music guy in the music industry and same conversation with both of them, because they both happen to be Jesus followers.

And, um, but the, the, the way that we were able to pull it together so they can understand that money is not the root of all evil, but that the love of money is, and, and that disciples making disciples is this mission. Jesus has called us on for the sake of his kingdom, um, not for the sake of, you know, the institutional church. And, and so from the standpoint of, of all of that, decentralization has been at the heart of it. And, and, and so what I try to do is help churches, especially not churches and nonprofits step back and, and remember, we, we want to be called people of the book. And yet we're not really submitting our practices and even our monetary philosophies, um, nor our governance philosophies and structures to, to the ways of the kingdom of Jesus.

And, you know, I mean, there's the simple stuff, right? Like the Gentiles lorded over you, but not so among us, right? I mean, there's this simple things that you can point to. Um, and then even the John 17 prayer where he's praised for the maturing of our oneness so that people would believe in the one who was sent. And he praised that three times in that prayer, the, the, that short passage. And so it's obviously important to him. And so that's what I try to do from just a diplomatic standpoint is pull them back to kind of see a big picture of how decentralization is, is at the heart of who Jesus is. And, and like John said, that this technology is giving us the opportunity. Could you, I don't know about John, but, but, and I think he and I both hang out with plenty of people who have yet to believe.

Um, but you know, the different circles we run in, I'll tell you, man, I hear from people typically in the church that they think crypto and all of this is the mark of the peace, which I think is nonsense. And, and, and again, because money is a world, it's, it's a, it's, it's, it's, it's not, it doesn't have an ethic in and of itself. The ethic is within us. And I think, you know, and so this, this incredible technology, John, that John called a gift, I do believe this. I think it's something that churches can take advantage of. And not only from the ministry practice standpoint, but even philosophically and structurally, and then from just an overarching, even metrics and, and, and strategy, like every aspect of what they do, as they think about who we are together as God's church, um, it can be linked into this mindset of decentralization.

And it's why crypto and DAOs and NFTs and, and all of those types of things are so important. And, I mean, it's why they're significant. I hope that answers your question. No, well, to me, the, the, the biggest challenge, at least when, when I think, listen, I was actually joking with, with a friend of mine, like the deeper I get into this blockchain and crypto stuff, the more that I feel like walking up to a giga church, a 10,000, a 20,000 person church and telling them literally blow it all up and start doing house chores. Because to me, it feels like that's where this technology and this cultural shift is coming as a, as a result of it. Well, that's where the rub, that that's where the rub's going to be like, like, let's just get honest for a minute, which we already have been, which is beautiful.

But if we get just blunt, it's the financial structure that's going to make people most uncomfortable. And, and, and the bottom line is like, like, I don't know, I know that John and what he does, he, they give themselves away so beautifully where I used to be a lead pastor in Orlando. When I left there, I'd been there 10 years, we were at the point of, I think we gave away 37% of everything we took in, um, locally and globally to, to vetted partners that we believed in. And then we still didn't feel like we were at what John the Baptist asked for in Luke 311, right? Like we didn't feel like we had two winter coats and give one away. And so we were trying to get there and, and not legalistically, but just out of a compulsion to want to, to honor the heart of Jesus.

And I think, um, we were though at 37%, which we patted ourselves on the back for, because most people weren't. But, but I say that to say like, like this technology allows you to put the finances back into the hands of the people. And, and, and that's where, that's where people are going to be most uncomfortable. The reason I think pastors I talked to are a little bit disturbed by what the, the dynamic of this monstrous mechanism that they've managed for so long by what it might threaten if they truly turned in that direction. And, and so, but what's crazy is the blockchain technology and web theory and crypto and NFTs and things like that actually give leaders, equippers, people who are equippers and apostolic leaders with the church.

It actually gives them a chance to make a salary or to make money just to provide for their needs in ways that aren't only and solely dependent upon the institutional churches, financial structures, which then would allow them maybe to breathe a little easier and feel a freedom to give the money and the finances and the resources back to the people who like the spirit of God left the temple, right? Like that's the veil tore, not so that we could get in, but so that we would know he's out, like out among us. It's, it's what Jesus said in John four, right? Like, like he told the lady, the woman at the well, it's not Gerizim or Jerusalem anymore. The day is coming and is now here where you will be worshipers in spirit and in truth.

Like this isn't, this isn't about us getting into the Holy of Holies. It's that the spirit and God was trying to communicate to us. I'm out among you. I'm with you. That's what he told Hosea, the prophet and Jeremiah, the prophet and Malachi, the prophet and on and on and on. And so that's, that's the heart that we're communicating here is the idea that, that the people of God have God's spirit and are being asked to, to steward the resources of the kingdom of Jesus in a way that this technology affords because it provides a trustless mechanism to allow people to engage with finances in a way that the banking system and our current financial structures don't give a freedom to do. Okay. So I'm seeing, I'm seeing DAOs like, like what I'm, what I'm seeing is not even like a church opening up a DAO as much as the church allowing opening multiple DAOs or equipping others to open DAOs or individuals just taking upon them the authority to open the DAOs.

But I'm seeing multiple DAOs for, for multiple purposes aimed at, you know, you're, you're talking about buying sports teams or buying back blockbuster. It's a horrible, but doing something, you know, with that. And so following passions, uh, utilizing that passion for kingdom purposes and recruiting people to be part of the mission. That makes sense. DAOs. I see that, um, NFTs. I don't understand. Like, you know, I'm, I'm only halfway speaking hyperbole here because, you know, I'm seeing NFT as artwork. I'm seeing NFT as songs. Like what, what are the roles of NFTs in this? And what, what does this actually mean? How, how does all this come together? So we were talking about cryptocurrencies when you were in the kind of our last episode in the beginning of this one, right?

So there is what's called a, uh, those, those cryptocurrencies on the Ethereum blockchain. Our protocol, this is going to be a technical, but it won't matter. Just, you can wash over you. It's called ER, an ERC 20. Right. So that's a protocol. And what, all it means is fungible token. Like, and, and, and what that word isn't super familiar to a lot of people, but it means like tradable. Right. So like if I have a dollar bill and you have a dollar bill and we trade those dollar bills, it's kind of like, we both still have a dollar. It's all good. That's good. It like, you know, if, if we have the same thing and we trade it, you know, whatever it's, it's a fungible token. Like if I have one Bitcoin and you have one Bitcoin, that'd be awesome, but we can both trade those Bitcoin.

Right. Whereas what's called it in, it came out initially was the ERC 721. There's a couple of different protocols for this, but what it means is a unique non-fungible token. So here's a way to illustrate this. Um, Jeff, you're married, right? Are you married? Okay. So if you and I decided to switch and go home to each other's wives, that would not play well because we are not fungible. Right. So, so this is now there is a digital mechanism to have an identity or a, or a, or a single, like a single use thing. So now what's cool about the, the end. So one is there can be like, let's say it is a, you can have a one-of-one type digital property, which was like, Oh, it's a, is a revolutionary technology, but more than that, it's, it's what's called a smart contract.

So a good way to illustrate a smart contract, I think is a vending machine. So if you go to the airport and you're hungry and you go to the vending machine, you put in a couple bucks and you put F seven. So the inputs were a couple bucks and these buttons F seven and F seven is, I don't know what's your favorite snack. We get some funyuns, whatever. And so that the output is automated and automatic because of the inputs. Okay. So now take that, that is basically a smart contract. So an NFT is, has the capability of being a vending machine. So I can now set up a smart contract. This is if you come and interact with this contract and I don't know, whatever inputs I require you have, like, Oh, you have this NFT token, this other NFT token, or this ERC 20 kind of in your wallet, or you're going to pay this amount of money you're going to, so you can set these things up, you can, you can create programmed entities that can exist.

Right now that is now open to human imagination. So the entire thing that you're like, Oh, I understand DAOs fundamentally, what makes a DAO possible is a smart contract, which is an NFT. Now an NFT, the, the use case that people are seeing is art because I grew up an artist. I was drawn all over the place, but you know what artists were called starving artists, because, because you can't, you can't one IP is a whole thing unto itself. Then I would occasionally be contracted to paint some mural. You know, what's also hard is getting paid. Once you do the work. Uh, that's also hard because people don't think they need to pay the artist or they need to pay them what they agreed to because the contracts weren't automated.

Right. So there's that kind of stuff. So IP is a game changer with NFTs, uh, get the paid mechanism. And then actually royalties can be programmed in. So if I make, you know, let's say this skull is some great artwork and I, I sculpt this skull and it's, it's, you know, really valuable. And I sell it to somebody, but then now when someone sells a work of art in the future, like the original artist doesn't see any returns on that art, but if, if it was an, if it was a ERC 721 or ERC 1155, if it was a NFT, a smart contract, I could have programmed into that in perpetuity, five, 10% royalties back to. So my great, great, great grandchildren will be like, yo, granddaddy was smart. He did a bunch of art.

Like Rembrandt's great grandchildren would be getting royalties on sales from auctions that happened at Christie's last month. Right. Like that would still be happening. That is revolutionary technology. And actually to me is the thing at the heart of all of my excitement about this. So I'm like, yeah, cryptocurrencies were interesting. There's a way to hold value. Blockchain's awesome. I actually think all that's true, but when they figured out a way to program a one-of-one contract, now we're seeing houses are selling as NFTs. In fact, one in Gulfport right near us just sold as a first in the United States NFT sale that the house went with it. The ownership of the house went with it. This is going to, and this, I believe when you hear me say, this is what's going to replace your churches, your institutions.

I think possibly your government. I think definitely your colleges. I think all of these things, all of these centralized powers are about to get their lunches eaten by this technology. There's no question. And I would, I just want to throw in out there too. Like I, not only do I agree, I 100% agree. I think when I talk to clients, the, or, or churches, I don't want to call churches clients, but when I talk to for-profit clients or to churches and nonprofits, I, the number one thing I try to make sure that I educate them on is how significant NFTs will be. They are significant currently because of what they've affected. And, and, and I would, I'd love to know the date on the house sale, by the way, because I know of one that was sold in Orlando, Tampa, and Miami last month.

And so, um, like, you know, which by property real, a group called property that I think did the first ones, but we'll have to look up the dates to see. But regardless, what you said is so true. It's absolutely disruptive. I mean, here's the thing it's going to disrupt. I was, I was sharing this with an education client on last Friday, and I can share a screen if you want me to, Jeff, to put the slide up. But, but it's going to disrupt identification concepts, all wallet concepts, all authentication concepts, all supply chain concepts, all logistics concepts, all social media concepts, all marketing concepts, all augmented and spatial reality concepts. All real estate, all real estate, virtual and real, all music concepts, film concepts, gaming concepts, science research concepts, health and nutrition concepts, government civics concepts, and even legal concepts.

Everything will be disrupted because of NFT technology. The bottom line is we're in a second renaissance. Yep. It has just begun. And if you know anything about any revolution historically, art and story are what laid the groundwork for the ethos shift. And that's what's happening. Art and story are what NFTs are using to lay down the groundwork for this decentralized revolution. And I'm telling you, even in the bear market currently for crypto, I'm telling you, it will come back. And NFTs, over the next 12 months, people will wake up to the reality, oh my goodness, it's not art. It's not art. It's something that automatically provides identity, authentication, verification, certification, intellectual property, auto payment, royalties, all these things that John just mentioned.

And it's all made possible because of this technology. And so what's happening right now, every developer right now is working their tails off to create mobile decentralized apps so that within the next two years, everyone's wallet will move solely and completely onto their phone, which is already happening. It's not like that's a weird thing. Your wallet is already on your phone, whether you realize it or not. Right. And, and all that's going to shift and you won't be able to even connect with most websites without connecting your digital wallet. I just want to say, I just want to say one thing, because that was brilliant. And, and amen. The one thing about this bear market, like, oh, we're, and it'll come back.

Here's the thing, like, and, and this maybe is because I didn't have huge bags and I'm not worried. I never cared about the money aspect of this. I care about the utility governance, like with a future orientation, everything you're rattling off. I'm like, the money's irrelevant. The dollar cost value of these coins is like irrelevant to me right now. Here's the thing. Like, oh, it, it, it crashed. We're, it's a bloodbath out there financially. I get it. All markets are down. Here's the thing that's crazy to me. Every single thing he just said still works. The trust still works. The safety still works. The speed still works. The accuracy still works. It works. And the value didn't change at all.

And it just got more accessible and available to build. And I couldn't be more excited. I can actually afford to build things right now, to try things right now. The, the, the, the, the, and ETH doesn't cost what it did three, four, five, seven months ago. It's dropped substantially now, if I was an investor, that hurts. But for me, I'm like, guys, the value, nothing, there's nothing to come back. Nothing's even dented. It's completely operational. You're exactly right. And the, and the two things that people don't realize who, who only think about this from a USD perspective, from a U S dollar perspective, if, if that's your mindset, which is normal, by the way, that's not being critical of that.

Everyone watching this video lives, I don't care where you're from on the planet Earth. That's right. You, you live in a U S dollar mindset. It doesn't mean that's going to stay that way forever. It's just reality right now. But people who operate and are building on these, in these cryptocurrencies and are building technologies and leveraging these technologies and even investing in the technology, they are not thinking, oh my goodness, ETH is down, Bitcoin, they're thinking in terms of a Bitcoin, still a Bitcoin, and ETH is still an ETH. And I'm operating in those currencies now. Because even though the liquidity and the, and the capital has diminished because the price of tokens has diminished, the amount of money being invested in the space is more now than it was a year ago.

And it's not changing because people realize this is where we're headed and where we're going. And, and, and that's what John's saying. He's exactly right. People are, and like, I mean, I was going to give this when we start talking about DAOs, but I'll give it now as just a prime example of that, that you can now build DAOs, for example, on Polygon, not just on ETH. And there's other chains you can build it on too, but you can do a DAO now in Polygon and they're currencymatic. And since Syndicate, which is the number one DAO establisher on earth, syndicate.io, and friend of mine is one of the founders there, Ian Lee, but since Ian and Will were the founders, since in the last six to eight months, about three weeks ago, they had gotten to 4,000 DAOs established through Syndicate, which represented over 10% of the DAOs that exist on earth right now.

All right. That's pretty significant. In the last three weeks, since they announced that you could build it on Polygon, which is a cheaper transaction rate, it's faster, it's scalable, more people can buy into it because it's cheaper to buy into it and feel like you're doing volume work with it. They've gone from 4,000 DAOs to this morning, they announced they've crossed the 10,000 mark. That's 6,000 in three weeks. Yeah. Like that's pretty incredible. Let me ask. I mean, I'm understanding the numbers. I'm hearing John say this is going to topple governments. I'm hearing this is going to, at nice terms, disrupt the economy, if not a much, much stronger. Like I'm going to put a, I'm going to ask for a guesstimate here.

You know, am I looking at this in 24? Am I looking at this at 26? What year or is this already in the midst of it? Is this a gradual, is this a slap across the face? How are we seeing and when are we seeing and how will we be feeling some of these trans, trans, I don't know what the word is there. The transition. Transition. Thank you. That's a very hard thing to say, right? Because God only knows. But faster than we think, I would say. But I will say this. There are three, I just, what came to mind when you were saying that, the Ethereum Foundation put out this annual report for 2022. And under the like heading of philosophy, there were these three like headings that stood out to me. And one of them was long-term thinking.

And they're like, the Ethereum Foundation community's impact should be measured in decades and centuries, not quarters and fiscal years. It's a protocol for human coordination. And if it continues to be a useful protocol, the lifespan will stretch far into the future. So like a gardener, we're planting seeds that we may not live to see grow. Language used by revolutionaries actually throughout history. The next one was subtraction. Basically saying we want to resist the natural tendency of organizations, which I would say like the spirit of Babylon, that is mostly what we know, to grow and accumulate power. Instead of capturing opportunities for ourselves, we distribute opportunities to the community.

Instead of pulling everything in-house to the center, we push the resources out into the ecosystem. And then stewardship of values. And the line was just beautiful. It says, Ethereum has a soul. The values of our community have helped make Ethereum what it is. It includes values like open source, decentralization, open access, privacy, and many more. The list isn't exhaustive. But we don't get to decide what the community values are. We are here to nurture what they think is most important. And so I go, look, that is here, and it is coming. Oh, isn't that interesting, familiar language? Like we talk about the kingdom of God. And interestingly enough, in many ways, though not necessarily using the name of Jesus, sounds closer to a lot of what I believe the early church's ethos was than a lot of the opposite of what we see using explicitly the name of Jesus, pulling resources in, lording over, bring, you know, the inversion of these values.

So the timeline question is super hard. I would say very, like it is coming quickly, and God only knows. But it's like the only way to say it is like if I say, well, when, when is this kingdom going to come that you speak of? Like you keep talking about the kingdom of God. When? And it's like, well, it's here. It's here. And it's coming. And I don't think there's the, it's not just analogy, I don't think, although the analogy is perfect. It's like, so that's my best answer to that. I don't know. But right now. It's good. It's good, yeah. And I just can throw out a few things from a data-informed perspective that I am seeing. And the first one is simple related to the church, and that is the difference in what is happening with this decentralized revolution and what is typical for the, at least the American church, I'll say, is that the, and I even heard this the last church I was on staff, in our onboarding, they made every person who came on staff go through Modelnetics, which is a business concept to business organization concept.

And it's not, it's, I didn't, I didn't think it was awful. I learned some things, but why didn't we onboard every equipper with the ethos of disciple making, right? Like that would be a much more sensible thing. And I said that multiple times in staff meetings, so I'm not saying anything I never said. But what was interesting with Modelnetics is you can read Modelnetics stuff. It's out and about. In fact, I think it was born in Houston, where we'll be later in August, right? But you can read Modelnetics, and the bottom line of Modelnetics is survival. The bottom line of all centralized structures is survival. And the bottom line of decentralized structures is thriving, right? Surviving or thriving?

Which one do you want to be about? Because surviving motivates you to do something very different than if you're motivated to see as many people as possible thrive. And so I say that to give context that I think it will be a difficult transition because people will still hold tightly to survival. But data informed just three things to point out real quick. When this November, the beginning of a shift for international monetary movement will occur. And it will play out between November 2022 and November 2024. And if you don't believe me, you can Google search it. There's over 25 countries that you can find PDFs that document what they're doing for this. And it's happening. It's going to happen.

So that's significant because that's a massive macro infrastructure move, right? So that's actually happening, right? The second thing, every major finance group and payment optimization group right now are moving toward putting digital wallets on every single mobile phone on earth. Functional digital wallets. It's not cumbersome, I don't know how to even get crypto and what do I do with it wallets. But functional, I can buy groceries with my crypto wallets. And that's happening now. And billions of dollars are being poured into it. And then the third thing I would say is that the rate of change in the blockchain movement is so much faster than the rate of change in the internet movement. This is actually going to be a renewal of what the internet was meant to be.

That's a whole other conversation we can have, if you want, on another roundtable. But the internet movement, if you remember, I mean, the internet officially started in the 70s. Most people don't realize that. But it really became more public in the 90s. And then by 98, we were all scared of YTK. But by 98, it started really taking, kind of hit a tipping point. And in 2007, with the iPhone, is when it really went berserk, right? Because all of a sudden, everyone could access it. And so think about that. You're talking about decades, right? From inception to when it really went berserk and was completely mainstream. But then take even the segment of 98 to 2007, in that nine-year period, I think you divide that by three.

Because I think we're moving three to four times faster in this blockchain movement. I mean, the pace is so difficult to keep up with. And I'm in the middle of it every day. And so I can't imagine for people who are not in the middle of it how just overwhelming it can be. But it's happening at three times the rate, in my opinion, just looking at the way, how quickly things change. Even my example of the Dow a while ago, I mean, you see how quickly that's being adopted over a three-week period versus what had been done the previous six months. And so it's just one of those things where I would say, no question, by 2030, you're going to see – and I'm not saying I know like I have a crystal ball.

I just feel abundantly confident that by 2030, based on data, based on the things that I know are being developed, that you're going to see individuals engaging with this technology regularly. You'll see institutions having fully adjusted their infrastructure to handle it. And long before 2030, countries will have adjusted international monetary movement to engage with this system. I think that's wildly conservative. Well, of course you do. You're allergic to conservatism. I'm not. Do you have any thoughts? I'm not. No, no, that's it. Go. I want you to jump in and ask some questions. But I just – I think that's a conservative timeline. So he's saying by 2030 – so I'm like, okay, we got eight years.

No, yeah, for sure. Like that it will be every day. You'll every day interact. And by the way, just the adoption rate, like if you like – you can like Google like overlay, let's say, blockchain adoption to internet adoption, like from like the – the growth rate actually mirrors each other pretty well. And then if you look at like Bitcoin, like wallet addresses versus Ethereum wallet addresses with like non-zero balances, it's like a skyrocket of Ethereum like surpassing Bitcoin as well. But like you merge those into like the blockchain path and go blockchain adoption versus like the internet itself. And by the way, that we today, sitting here right now, are in 1997 or 8. Like so if you want to know like what the timeline looks like, but I'm like go follow that trajectory and go, well, what did from – at what's 8 – what did it look like in 2006 versus 98?

And that's the timeline you're factoring in eight years out? I'm like, oh, yeah, that's – I think it's conservative because I actually think it – I think the curve is going to be greater, honestly. But even if it matches the same trend. And I'll say – I mean I don't mind saying. I said a client asked the same question yesterday and I just said – they said, I want to know because I was like, yeah, we don't know. And I was – they said, I want to know. And I said, well, I think 26 or 27, you won't be able to interact in any financial or major infrastructure or even in the supply chain structure the same way that we do right now. And I think that's still a conservative. Here's the thing though. I think what's interesting is right now people – like listen, if you're listening and you're like, yeah, I tried.

It was very complicated to set up the wallet and I don't understand. Like this is DOS version. So a lot of what's being worked on is user interface, right? Because the onboarding thing is really tricky. It's like back in the day if you wanted to watch a movie on your computer, you had to know so many things on how to find these servers and download these things and set up these players. And like it was only my geeky uncle that could like come over on Christmas and play a movie from the internet. It was like magical that that could be done without going to the blockbuster. But blockbusters aren't here anymore except that one that that DAO is going to buy and repurpose into something dope. But like that – they don't even exist anymore.

And it's like that's what's happening is like as that user interface and usability and these mobile wallets are developed, like what is the challenge today? It's like it's complicated. It's expensive. It's like you got to have like – I mean all of us start going down this rabbit hole going, oh my god, there's so much I got to know. Like you talked about at the beginning is I'm still in the learning phase. So we all are. All of us. All of us are. It's like the – it's the unknown out here, which I love. I'm just like, man, this is great. It's none of us know. We're figuring it out out here. But it is completely unknown. Very exciting. But like it will not take long for those user interfaces because that's a top priority for every project.

Everyone. That's right. Well, and really that segues right to where I wanted to go. You know, to say – to transfer a little bit, augmented reality is very hard to encompass right now because Apple has not released these glasses. Sure. When Apple comes out with – when a large player, whether it's Apple, whether it's Meta, Facebook, whether it's Google, when somebody comes out with something better than Google Glass, we'll be able to wrap our brains around what augmented is. But until then, it's sketchy at best to try to figure out what it is, even more how to take advantage of it. For the, you know, the 600-person church in Arkansas, no offense to the Arkansasian people, but, you know, a blue-collar church somewhere out there, small to medium size, is the challenge today for them to understand this, to own this, to prepare this, to wait for a major player to come out with a turnkey solution that they can use?

It's like, what are people, what are churches, what are pastors, what are church leaders, what are they supposed to do with this? Like, they're shock and awe. What's a practical next step? Is there a practical next step? I'll jump in real quick. I think there are several very practical next steps. But first of all, I think the onus is on us. And what I mean by onus is on the leaders of the church, the people, and I'm speaking now of the Big C Church, the people who have equipping and apostolic callings to tell the stories, to come up with the imagined narratives, to help people, the leaders of our respective expressions of the church, to understand what this could mean. And John does a beautiful job of it, of really suggesting things that people can put their hands on and around, their minds and hearts around.

But, you know, like, I mean, a good example, I was thinking the other day of, and I'll give one local, one global real quick. You know, from a global standpoint, a buddy of mine, he was a paid missionary to Kathmandu. But what I love, because he had been a Boeing engineer, is he went and was hired by the university there, Kathmandu University, I think it is, it might be University of Kathmandu, whatever. So UK or KU, right, one or the other. And he was hired there to start, this was back in the day, to start their computer science program. And he did. And so I just imagine, if he had to do something like that today, how incredible. And John, I'd love to hear your thoughts on this, when it comes around, if you have any on it.

How incredible would it be for him to leverage NFT technology and blockchain and DAO utility to be able to do something from a Web3 and a tech dev standpoint, if he was starting that today? And how easily churches from every continent could get in on it and be a part of it. How individual businessmen and women who believe in it could get in on it and be a part of it because of the technology that's now available. And whereas it was so, you talk about cumbersome. I mean, that was cumbersome. If someone wanted to really be a part of supporting it or even be engaged with it, and it's different now. And so that's a global example of just how people can begin to think, how churches like that church, a church in Arkansas could think.

But even locally, a church in Arkansas may say, we don't want a single person in our town to go hungry. Or they may say, you know, they may really get passionate about, you know, like the things Jesus actually said, right? So Matthew 25, and they just go down the list in Matthew 25, and they say, what about the prisoners in our town? And what about the hungry and the ones in hospitals and, you know, those who don't have clothes or shelter? You know, and you go on through the six that are mentioned there of the least of these, or even James 1 with the widow and the orphan. And you say, okay, let's say that church in Arkansas says, we don't want a single orphan to not have a family in our city.

And so we're going to leverage the ability for every follower of Jesus, not just our one expression of his church, but every follower of Jesus in this town to be a part of a DAO, whose purpose is to make sure that the resources are available to fund the supporters who would need to come around the families that adopt the kids, right? Because that's almost more important from an adoption standpoint than even just making sure the adoption family can buy clothes, right? But to have this incredible support group and to make sure the resources are there to support, to fund, to provide unique opportunities, to pay for the counseling that is needed by that family and those children, to provide whatever they need from a school standpoint, a college standpoint, or whatever is going to come from our education system through this disruption.

Like, like that kind of thing is possible. And I'm not just saying that to give the easy, here's the nice missions example, because it's always this missions people, the people that are labeled mission or evangelism. They're the, we're the ones that left the church in the seventies, right? Because the ape wasn't allowed in the room anymore, the apostle prophet evangelist, but that's another conversation. So the shepherd teacher, you know, became so central and, but it's, so I'm not just even giving those examples because it's the typical evangelism or missionary example. I'm just saying those are two incredibly practical, low hanging fruit opportunities that would help churches. Because the thing I say to every client and every group I work with is just do one thing, like just do one thing.

You're not going to even know how to talk about Web3 and NFTs and crypto, unless you have a MetaMask wallet or a Temple Tezos wallet or a Stoic wallet on the internet computer or so on and so forth. You're not even going to know how to talk about it unless you jump in and do one thing. So do one thing, and then you're going to start to go, oh, that wasn't that hard. So I want to piggyback on that one thing because I'll take the, the other approach. So I've heard so many people, even church folks that like kind of get this stuff and they're like, oh my gosh, we could do this. We could do this. We could do this. And I think that's absolutely right. But, but then in the actual execution, and this is my own experience is like, so like I work with a very poor community.

There is cost prohibitive, right? Now people, most people have smartphones. They can get access. They can set up a MetaMask wallet, but they can't buy ETH. They can't go. They might not have a bank account to set up and transfer ETH over to this thing and, you know, whatever. So I'm going to give a very concrete, practical, like, here's what I think. So, so let's just take the church in Arkansas with 600 people in general. That pastor probably wants to take people that participate in some way in the church. They attend a service once in a while, or they went to the community picnic. They participated in something and they want to move them to an engaged person. And then they want to bring them into like membership, into the fold.

They're engaged now. And then they want to move them from, and so maybe they go, hey, why don't you help set up chairs? Or why don't you help do parking or whatever lame thing they do around the church building? But like, let's get them engaged. But the idea is we want to then move them from engaged to ownership. And not just ownership, not like ownership of the church, but ownership of the mission, the work, the kingdom, right? Okay. So that's a very simple kind of roadmap. So here's the suggestion. The one thing. There is a protocol. It's actually built on Gnosis chain, kind of a side chain of Ethereum. It doesn't matter. It's called POAP, P-O-A-P. So it's a proof of attendance protocol. So like last month, I went to a conference.

And at that conference, they said, hey, if you're here in attendance, like right now, I know we don't have people on here, but we're live, right? And so if people were on, we can say, hey, if you're live right now, for this amount of time that we're on, there's a POAP available at this domain. And you set up your wallet. You can go claim it. It's free. It's absolutely free to claim. But it is an NFT. It's a free NFT that I can claim on this chain. Okay. Now, that's free. That's awesome. That's something. And so I did this with a little blog I wrote on how to set up wallets. I said, if you set up a wallet, send me your wallet address in your email. I'm going to send you a link to download a free POAP.

And there you go. It said like the wallet setup thing. Your ball blurred out because you got that weird filter on. There you go. Those are the POAPs. And that's the mobile app wallet of those things. So they're free. And it's like collecting badges. Like if you had like a passport, you want stamps or stickers. Souvenirs, right? And I've got a ton of them. Like I was on this live podcast and this thing. But then those are actual NFTs that can be granted utility. Like, for example, this is like a little side thing. This guy, G Money, that did these live podcasts that I claimed POAPs while they were live, while he did these live podcasts, later did a deal with Adidas and dropped this huge thing called Into the Metaverse, which was this big deal with Bored Ape and Adidas.

And they dropped this NFT project. And I was whitelisted for that project because I had a free POAP from being on one of his first podcasts. Like not on it, just like attending and listening to it live, right? So, okay. Now, there's another platform called Snapshot. Snapshot is what most DAOs use for governance because it uses like a roll-up of voting. So it is on-chain, kind of not on-chain. So it settles on-chain for a vote, right? So this is because one of the – so now maybe the church says we're going to use this POAP as a way to say you participated in something or to say this is like a membership token. Like when you do X, Y, and Z, we want to give this to you as membership. And maybe we're going to run a little setup night where we get everyone together for pizza and drinks and we're hanging out.

We're going to show everyone how to set up a MetaMask wallet. And it's a membership class. And at this class, you get this POAP. Now, everyone that has that POAP gets like, I don't know, access to X, Y, and Z, whatever. But then you go on Snapshot. So here's what I think is interesting because churches typically should give some money to some stuff, right? Like you said, oh, we want not a single orphan. But typically from a very centralized leadership, top-down way, strong leaders, cast vision, and try to talk their people into some like missionary pet project. We're going to build this well in this place where my buddy has an orphanage or whatever. Okay, how about the opposite? How about you just take your church budget, you take whatever sum of money you can, and you put it in a wallet.

And then you say to your people, now, all I'm going to preach is the mission of the kingdom of God. So the mission, Jesus came to represent the mission of God. And this church doesn't have a mission. We belong to a mission. We belong to his mission. And I'm going to proclaim that mission. And then I'm going to say, hey, all of you that have these tokens, there is now a platform we have. We're going to set this up. It's called Snapshot. And you can make proposals on what we should do with this money. How should we love our city? How should we embody the kingdom in our city? Tapping the genius of the collective. And then you can now, you can free vote on Snapshot using a po-op. There's a little bit of like, someone's got to be a little techie to set that up.

Now you have membership, utility, governance for $0. And now the church can fund this entire thing and go, here is money that we've gathered through tithes and offerings. We're going to put this in here and go, this is earmarked for you to spend together to answer our prayer. May your kingdom come, may your will be done in this city as it is in heaven. And I, Mr. Pastor Man, am not in charge of this. My only job is to just proclaim the overarching ethos and mission of God's people and you respond in faith and you take ownership of this. So now I took you from a participant to engage in governance to owning, owning. And so, again, this isn't one person holding a steering wheel, but everyone reaching ecstatically toward the dreams of the community.

And that is a very different reality that looks a lot like ecstatic worship and mission versus a boring church service with a centralized pastor with a top-down vision doing this thing. And I think, like, and I'm going, okay, that, by the way, I'm like, this is a very dual, like, you could put a link to everything I said in there. And that is one, two, three steps, and it costs $0 for anyone to do. And I'm so excited because I just figured this out. I've been beating my head against the wall trying to figure out how I could do this with poor people. And I'm like, I could do this with poor people. The problem is I don't have a bunch of money to deposit into a wallet. So if anyone wants to hook it up, we could do some type of projects around here because I'm trying – because now we can legitimately give money to the poor and have them on-chain govern it accountably.

It can actually be done. Like, you can actually just not go, we're going to do this for the poor, with the poor, among the poor. You can just empower them and let them decide what they want for their future and determine their own hoped-for outcomes and govern their own lives. And you support and push out resources to the ecosystem, a lot like I quoted in the Ethereum Foundation paper, which I think is actually something the church should be doing. So that's my advice for the 600-person congregation in Arkansas, how they might have a little bit of a roadmap because I wanted to start from the practical building to that thing. Now all those beautiful ideas about the orphans and the homeless and the widows and the – it's like, all right, now we make some decisions.

No, you're exactly right. That's what I meant earlier too when I said that's what threatens the centralized institutional church and why – but why this is so significant. Remember when I said that you should give the money back to the people, right? Like, you hit it on the head, John, and it's – You're horrified by that idea. Totally horrified. And I think – They should be. But how – That's why we kill the prophets. That's right. But how powerful would it be? Like, take the orphan idea for – or even hunger. Take hunger, for example. If it wasn't the pastor saying, we're going to do X and it's going to be centralized, but saying, how about a few of you who are passionate about hunger? You get together and start a doubt.

As you give, as you give to the institutional church, if you all think that's something we should – then we'll deposit money to that. And you guys run with it. You'll also give your own money into it. And that's how you can get yours funded, is you know good and well. There are plenty of businessmen and women who are Jesus followers in your community. If they knew that they can give directly into that now for you to provide for your people, for the people that you're engaging with and needing and loving and equipping, for them to be able to engage in the kingdom in that way and decide on where resources could go, they'd get to it. And that's the thing – I agree with you. I mean, I think you hit it right on the head.

I think you hit it right on the practical example of, again, just do one thing. Like, you don't need the pastor's permission to do what we just described, but it would be incredible if he would get up on a Sunday morning and say, hey, we want you guys to decide this and to publicly affirm that. One of my favorite ways that people refer to the blockchain is permissionless because that's just the world I want to live in. I'm just like, I don't care. I don't need your permission. Sure. And I just love that. But that's it. That's exactly right. But you're right. How much greater if we go, yeah, let's all affirm that. Wherever your situation is, it's like we say we want to put the kingdom first. And anything that comes before that is, what, idolatry?

So whether that is our own survival or our position or our job or our structures, like, we got to be willing to hold those things with an open hand or to lay down our lives. I love everything that I've just heard. I'm going to go with so much to say in so little time. I'm going to go on public record. I'm going to launch a DAO. Chesley and I have been talking. We're going to launch a DAO in 23. Even sitting here, like, he and I have had ideas, conversations, been spitballing some stuff back and forth. And I like the one idea we've talked about, even just in this conversation. I've got four or five other completely different ideas in my head. And I'm learning some things along the way. And so we're going to continue to have more of these conversations, you know, mic drop, controversial takes, whatever it is.

But really, the heart of this is a very, you know, I want to call it a simple approach, an elementary beginning conversation to some really difficult concepts that are coming very soon to the church. And just to affirm what these guys have said, the biggest challenge of the church is to not try to control what's about to come at them. Because you can try to control this movement and try to controlling it is going to limit it. Releasing, empowering. It's funny. I use that permissionless line all the time. You know, culturally, we are moving into a permissionless society. They don't want our permission. And we're also moving into a trustless society. They don't trust us anyway. And so as a result of being trustless and permissionless, we can fight for what people no longer want to give us.

Or we can try to figure out how to help, how to empower, how to platform, how to release these movements and try to maybe reevaluate what we see as success. And this has nothing to do with the gospel. This has nothing to do with people's view of Jesus as much as it is understanding it's not happening Sunday morning from a pulpit. It's going to have to look different when we're moving into these permissionless, into these trustless societies. And what we're describing here with a lot of this Tao and decentralization, well, there's just going to be more to come as a result of that. So, hey, look, I want to do John, Jason, the two J's. Isn't that a restaurant, two J's? Do you guys have two J's where you are?

Isn't that like a breakfast place now? Maybe that's just it. I think we do. Yeah, we do. It's like a breakfast place in West Palm Beach. And now I'm really embarrassed because that's like a throwback in itself. Hey, listen, I want to do this again. And so we'll schedule a time in August to come together, work through some topics, and continue to dive through here. Like I know, like people are processing this. They're asking this. They don't understand this. And so even putting together Roundtable 1, Roundtable 2 here with the blockchain crypto, the decentralized, the NFTs, the DAOs, like all this is solid information to help us. So once again, thank you guys for this. Within the YouTube links, we'll put links to them, the contacts in their bios, and more information on them.

So if you're interested in who they are and what they're doing and how to connect with them directly, feel free to check out YouTube descriptions and we'll go there. But John, Jason, man, this has been solid. Thank you for that. But we're going to land a plane. So for the two Js, this is Jay 3. We're calling it a show. Thanks, everybody, for this Roundtable. We'll see you, I think, next week. By the way, just to tease what's happening next week, we're going to be talking with Mark Lutz from Lux Digital Church about how to recruit volunteers for Digital Church. And actually hosting that's going to be Dr. John Harris from Hearts Like His. So two digital pastors talking about recruiting volunteers.

By the way, both those guys are very strong disciple-making in their digital church. So definitely an interesting conversation seeing that pivot in the new model of church. So thank you all for being here, and we'll see you next time here at the Roundtable. So y'all have a good one.