EP240 - Jonathan Song and Churchome’s Pastor Chat

Even just the idea of church and at least here church in you know North America in the western world where it's so often just associated with like uh something that we do on Sunday um and you know there's nothing wrong with that you know I think the heart genuinely is for the most part um in the right place but um again coming out of covid and seeing this the renewed appetite for connection and something that again for a lot of people we weren't able to have you know in the middle of that welcome to the church digital podcast through this podcast we'll talk about the technological innovations within the church but more than tech protect itself we'll address deeper questions is disciple making possible digitally how should we approach the digital mission field can a biblically grounded church operate in digital space oh and where does the metaverse fit into all this whether you're a big or small church an established church or a startup church plan the church digital's goal is to help churches like yours learn to be a multiplying church digitally and physically our heart that churches like yours will discover a newfound focus on disciple making that will revolutionize your church and now here's your host Jeff Reed.

Hey everybody welcome to the church digital podcast I am it's Jeff here founder of the church digital co-founder digital church network and uh oh I don't know I've got a whole bunch of jobs I don't even keep track of all this one well I do because I actually have to like work to get a paycheck but it's okay it's a lot of fun when you're helping deal with digital type things and I'm excited I'm excited about this conversation I've been looking I've been waiting uh for a long time to dig into this topic and it's and it's taken us a while to get things scheduled uh and to come into it but but I am really looking forward to digging into this church and learning more about their their approach because I consider this church one of the most aggressive if not the most aggressive churches in America and I've talked to at least from a technological standpoint and I've talked about this with some of their other staff and we've had some other other people on the on the podcast here and and to be honest like it's it's funny they it's always like this this meek approach like we don't we don't consider ourselves that aggressive and I'm like oh my gosh do you have any idea compared to some others and you know I could dance around and tease what this conversation is going to be for a while but let's forget that let's just let's just get into it I'm excited to bring into the conversation Jonathan Song uh from church home in uh and I guess officially Seattle as well as Los Angeles right now you're uh you're a multi-city uh uh church is that how you consider it and then of course there's all the stuff you do digitally and online when you tell people where you're from Jonathan like how do you describe that?

I would say you kind of hit the nail in the head of you know historically been you know Seattle and Los Angeles I think that's what we've been kind of known for for the most part for the last especially with LA for the last few years but Seattle you know we've we've been to church for thirty years so that's as long as I've been born on this planet and I haven't been apart that whole time but yeah definitely like Seattle Los Angeles and I'm sure we'll kind of jump into the conversation a little bit later but yeah even just a little bit of a shift as far as um you know our model or ministry and um even kind of shifting away from multi-site in a sense and becoming more you know decentralized lies so global church I guess is a way to put it but it's um yeah there's a lot of nuances and stuff to it but just for the sake of this we'll say Seattle and LA for sure.

Wow he just said the word decentralized church and I may have just trolled a little bit on the podcast because I'm really anxious to get into that that conversation and I don't even know that I had planned to get it into that part of it so hey we're gonna see how this one goes this is going to be fun but listen uh and and I've talked about this we've had Mark Venti who's on the executive team of the church he's been on the podcast several times and and he's been a friend over the years and I've I've just I've been very excited talking with him about some of the aggressive stances that that your church has taken uh digitally now we're going to get into pastor chat I want to start maybe which is is a whole other thing we'll get into a text-based chat pastoring and shepherding people um I do want to explore like the the decentralized type of thing as as much as your comfort with that but at the heart of this thing like four years ago was really the first time that church home got on my radar this is pre-covered maybe 2018 maybe 2019 actually I wrote a I wrote a blog uh talking about Judah Smith your lead pastor I think he was quoted in like I don't I'd have to go back and look but I think it was like Fox News or CNN it was like this guy who thinks that he says that he wants to pastor people via a mobile app and like the press went nuts this guy thinks he can pastor people via mobile app the church world went nuts saying this idiot over here thinks he can pastor people via mobile app meanwhile four years later like I I gotta ask how's it going are you pastoring people via mobile app I gotta imagine in this covid season you know that that idiot all of a sudden became like a prophet talking about oh my gosh look at that what are we what are we seeing what are we doing uh the availability connect with people digitally how's it going now coming out of covid what's this looking like?

Yeah I think yeah at the time when you know at the time even when you know I think that was said and even just the idea of like a church app and what we're hoping to accomplish um I wasn't even on staff at the time you know I was you know volunteering and attending and those sorts of things and um yeah very radical idea I think you kind of nailed it almost um you know aggressive as far as like technology and you know I think the whole idea of the app in general was um it's just a way that people can connect to you know of course like our content messages you know that had been happening already and so um but you know just continuing to see uh just a continued need and this is for every church as well but just a continued need for connection and community and so um even the idea of like having a mobile app and and not like that not that that was something so revolutionary at the time like you know churches had apps and things like that but you know just taking a look at our trends in the world today and um just just even the practical of you know whether or not someone might agree with it or not it's just the reality like how much we are so dependent on technology and um you know if you're like me and you look at your screen time and you're not proud of it to be honest you know it's like the mini win you know when you get the notification that um you know your screen time was down ten from last week I'm like yes I'm like crushing it right now um but but the whole idea I think was just using technology as a means and leveraging technology where again we do so many of our every day you know for fun for even work those sorts of things were just so convenient and it's you know the idea of someone that just needs like a little like spark in the day you know maybe the cup of coffee is not doing it but it's like I need to hear just like a quick like just encouragement I need to hear something from scripture or um things like that and we just thought wow it was so it would be cool in a sense of why not having what essentially is like having church in your pocket um and again you know for an app it's not it's not just created to be a platform for like content obviously that's a big part of it but again the big the hope of it is how can we leverage it to build genuine church community from that and so you know based on like how the app you know the I the idea of the app and people connecting to groups near them location wise and this will kind of incense to a probably a bigger conversation about just you know what we feel like God has called us as a church to do um in the future uh we're just kind of thinking how can we be a little bit more innovative and be creative and have a pioneering attitude of you know people using their phone for like literally everything else in their in their lives and so why not use that as a means for people that that it serves to again the whole idea is to point people can help people connect with God and to help connect with community so yeah definitely at the time it's been um over these last few years which that's also just insane to think it's been that amount of time and even just the timing of it with you know church home we you know previously been the city church so we've been you know we were named the whole idea of the app and you know we'll jump into like pastor chat and these sorts of things where you know we're ready to like soft launch and like really be aggressive and promoting and then lo and behold who would have ever thought that a global pandemic would happen in our lifetime and it literally happened as the pandemic was starting and so it's by no means am I saying it's a blessing in disguise obviously not at all but just the timing was so crazy where then now everything was forced to go digital you know whether churches were prepared for it or not and we just you're just like the timing of it above anything was just like so so crazy and even to see where it is today and continuing to build off of that um we think it's been it's been really successful and we're gonna we just want to continue to build from that.

Yes this is beautiful now now you've just described your mobile app but you're starting to and and you're using some words that you know everybody every church describes their mobile app and so I want to drill in a little bit here like when we're talking pastoring people via a mobile app yes Judah's sermon may play a part in it but pastoring people shepherding people via a mobile app is something that that describes and it sounds far more relational you're utilizing the words building genuine church community and and I dare say the average church mobile app in America does not really get to that place of of community we're looking at doing things far beyond distributing the week can service content or anything like that specifically so I mean could you maybe talk a little bit here specifically pastor chat what does this mean maybe what are some examples of how people are utilizing this to build or to engage in community?

Yeah I think even the whole idea with things like pastor chat um even at the time when you know we've launched the app I had been hired onto the team to help be part of the pastor chat team um and again that's literally like right when the pandemic started so that was just again the timing was crazy but you know it's one of those things too I think even from for us as pastors and leaders doing ministry um there's just so much obviously it's always about people right being with people there's a lot of you know things that people need you know prayer about or just want to you know talk with someone just have someone that maybe not necessarily is going to talk at them but just an avenue where people can have someone that can listen and sometimes you know as much as I love you know the the coffee meetings and hey let's you know do those sorts of things even just from this the sake of um efficiency and you know people's time it's you know as much as I'd love to have a you know me person I'd love to have you know half an hour coffee meetings all the time you know every day I only have

So many hours in the day that I can do things, and even for people, it's like it's just maybe not conducive to, you know, I just I need to talk with someone. But like trying to set up this meeting, so even the idea of Pastor Chat, um, which it, what it is, it's a live chat platform that we've created where, um, currently it's on our website and even on our mobile app. For it's literally like anyone can message in about almost anything that they want, and it's, you know, it's certainly not meant to be like counseling or, you know, we're not licensed like therapists or anything. But sometimes people like, hey, I'm just like going through something. Like quick, I just would love like a quick prayer said over me. Or I mean, even when it comes to the community aspect of, you know, however someone came to learn about Church Home and hear about us, um, what we're doing and wanting to get involved, like, hey, I live in so and so city. Um, is there like a group that's near me where I can be around people that love God and can, you know, help build me up and encourage me? Those sorts of things. And so that's really like the whole idea of Pastor Chat. It's Pastor Chat. It's really to be an on-ramp for any spectrum that someone is on the faith spectrum, where there's someone that has been part of Church Home or been part of community for years and years, or someone that's like, I don't know who God is. Tell me more about God. Who is this Jesus? Can you tell me more? I'm interested. Um, and so that's kind of the genesis of Pastor Chat. It's a way for us as a church and a ministry to be able to serve people in a different way that maybe is more just effective for them and just more conducive. Um, and it's also just to help even maximize how many people that we can serve. And not the important thing is the number of people, but it's again just meeting people where they're at. And, you know, for a lot of these conversations that are very pastoral in nature, it might be the person that, again, with speaking with like the coffee meeting, um, example, they might not even be comfortable, you know, meeting someone in person and talking about these very real, you know, things that might be going on in life. But it's way easier to be, you can be anonymous essentially. And, um, hey, I just need a prayer about something that's happening in my life or just want to talk about things or I need Scripture or something like that. And so again, we just saw this as like an opportunity to not only serve our, you know, our church, our community that, you know, have been around forever, but again, as we want to be, you know, the best at telling the story of Jesus to the world and reaching new people, um, it's a platform that if someone's not necessarily again located where we have buildings and those sorts of things, hey, they can still connect with Church. Or you're just as much a part of Church Home than anyone else. And so, um, yeah, that's that's really again what we've really, really loved about the platform. And again, just it's a way for that people can connect. Yeah, so you're rattling a bunch of cages right now, pastoring via a text texting platform. You're not able to see the people that that you're conversing with. You're not breathing the same air molecules. Like there's there's a lot of, a lot of, uh, disruptive, uh, I mean, I don't feel disruptive having this conversation, but it's a disruptive idea. I, I totally get it. I'm just curious, um, are there, are the people that are engaging, like we we talked about, uh, Seattle, we talked about Los Angeles. If you're watching on YouTube, like there's literally behind him there's the two maps of Seattle and Los Angeles are are in his are like art hanging on his on his wall. So those two regions are important. You said decentralized, obviously mobile, if you're in a mobile app, digital, it scales and it grows very quickly. Are you seeing, are you engaging with people primarily, it's surrounding the physical area? Are you seeing it grow beyond? I know we haven't really talked about decentralized yet, but what's the reach of this thing? And who's really engaging with? I mean, let's let's even back up. Your lead pastor Judah is a little bit of an influencer online. Um, you've got Biebs. What was involved in the church? Justin Bieber for a stretch? He may still be. So the church has got some spread. Like, is that influencing who's using this? Who's who's really coming in to be pastored, uh, via that?

The first and I think the most important thing that you had said, the word is reach. Um, and this is even again prior to, uh, you know, our app or anything like that, but even just seeing, you know, with our, you know, our content such as podcasts or YouTube or things like that, of, you know, we've seen that, you know, a lot of people, um, for whatever reason, we're listening to, you know, our sermons or things that we're doing, paying attention that again don't live in Seattle or Los Angeles where we have, you know, church buildings and those sorts of stuff. And so, um, and that's kind of the amazing thing about Pastor Chat for me, you know, being able to have the privilege to lead the team now that helps, um, operate it, the reach is something that is so mind-boggling to me of, again, however someone came to hear about Church Home or messages or anything like that. I mean, we'll get chats from people that honestly are from countries that I didn't know were countries, which is which is awesome. I think, you know, it's again the whole point of, you know, spreading the gospel to the ends of the earth. And that's such, it's what a time that we live where again we can upload like a message on YouTube and it's amazing to see, um, just who's engaging with us. Um, and again, as a church and we're no different than any church, you know, I think we all have the mission like what we do is we want to reach people for Jesus. Um, and so however that comes to be, um, what a privilege it is to be able to, for a lot of the times, introduce someone to Jesus for the very first time. And it's through a live chat platform. And so even to your kind of initial question, um, this is not a totally accurate number. This is really gut feel. Um, I probably should have been a little more prepared, um, for this, but, uh, the amount of conversations that I'm getting, I would say probably about like ninety-eight percent of them are from people that do not live in the greater Seattle or Los Angeles area. I mean, it's happening from, wow, I would say almost probably every state in the country. Again, country, uh, yeah, every state in the United States, countries all around the world, and countries that I didn't know existed if I'm honest. Um, and it's just again such a privilege of, you know, however that reach happens, however someone interacts with church or heard about us, um, I think it's just like, yeah, absolutely, like that's that's what we're called to do. Like we're called to reach people for Jesus. And so again, it's, um, it's just, it's just like a lot of times it's even in the middle of like work, you know, what we call work and all these sorts of things, it's just so like incredibly just mind-blowing to like take a step back and just, wow, like this is the reach that, you know, our platform has. Um, so yeah, it's pretty incredible.

Okay, I'm not gonna quote ninety-eight. Please don't quote that. That's gut feel. But I would love, and I like, I would love that number because even if it's a nineties range like that, that's incredible. Nine out of ten people that that are asking for for prayer, that are asking for for connection, that are asking for help are outside of the physical reach of the of the church. You know, we talked, I I talk a lot digitally that digital gives us the opportunity to reach a different type of person than our buildings are reaching. And and right now what you just said without realizing it is actually like the proof of that. And so that's where I, if you could give me a tighter number or a range then the nineties, like I will start screaming that from the rooftops. That's that's an incredible, incredible movement.

Let me ask because I mean, I, all right, so so someone out there, some some purist, some Luddite, some technological hater is going to hear this and say, yeah, but Jeff, um, what you can do digitally, what you can do via text, um, it's still not as good as being in online in physical community. Like these people are missing out by by doing this. And and yes, there there may be some truth to that. Like I'm willing to have that conversation. But I would love your take. Do you feel like you you lose anything from the relationship by by texting via keyboard or using your thumbs on on a phone? Like what what is the the perceived loss from you, the person, and the person's leading the persons who who are doing this?

No, yeah, really, really great question. And it's one that's very valid. Um, I think at the end of the day, there's pros and cons to both, whether you know, for speaking from a, you know, pastoring people or just loving people, supporting people, you know, what what's more, what's more effective? Is it, you know, the in-person element or is it the digital? All, um, I think probably the the bigger question is, are not even a question. It's why not both? Why does it have to be either or? Why could it not be both? And because again, I think there are pros and cons to to both. Um, you know, from the in-person standpoint, I I think I kind of said again, like I love having the thirty-minute meetings or such like, let's get a quick coffee and let's catch up. Thirty minutes that adds a quick one after another, you know, and so it's again it's like there's only so many people that I'm able to, um, just to be with in that sense. Um, and even when it comes to the digital or online, um, methods, yeah, you probably do maybe lose a little bit as far as, um, you know, like you and I are chatting right now. We don't maybe necessarily see the the facial expression or the the body language or the tone of voice. You know, it's very easy to read something in a text and assume this is how the person's like thinking as they're typing. So maybe you lose a little bit a bit of that when it comes to the the digital. But on the flip side as well, um, because it is online and you don't have to see see me sitting across from me to talk about things, maybe you don't know who I am. It's like, oh, that's intimidating to begin with to have a coffee meeting with someone that I don't even know. Um, or again, it could be very person, very like deep personal things like that's just like not easy to talk about in a sense. Again, they may never ever decide that to want to like meet in person or talk about it. But hey, through through digital means, through where again you could be anonymous if you would like to be, um, you know, how many more of those conversations can we have now because we've opened that opportunity versus again people that are maybe a little bit more shy in nature or again very just don't want to be like super vulnerable like that? And so, you know, again, it comes to, yeah, again, you're gonna have pros and cons. You might lose things both ways. And so again, for for us, it's, uh, it's a matter of why not be able to provide both? And if we're gonna say we want to reach people where they're at, also understanding that every person is going to be different. And so just providing as many opportunities as possible, um, for someone to connect, whatever is most conducive for them.

What what lessons, what mistakes, what what challenges, uh, what what are the iterations? Like maybe let me ask this. Let's let's drill in. What were some mistakes that were made early on that that were corrected? Maybe somebody out there is wanting to to think about doing something like this. Like what's the what's the big failure that everybody's gonna hit that you can help them prevent and move beyond?

I think even prior to to launching the idea of Pastor Chat, the actual platform, you know, as a team we wanted to be like prepared for, you know, people are gonna message us about, you know, they're going to...

Through some very real life hard things in life, and it's like, "How do I, how do I one respond and encourage someone, but two, how can I like communicate that the most effectively again via text?" Because it's so hard. Things can get, you know, lost in translation in a sense. And um, no, that's another thing too. Is even in that preparation, you kind of think, "Oh yeah, I'm gonna be able to nail this conversation. I know someone's probably gonna, you know, this, you know, thing comes up and like I'm well prepared." And then you're thrown in the thick of it and it's happening live. It's not like a test or anything, and it's like, "Oh, I don't, I don't actually know anymore. Like I'm like totally frozen."

And I think a lot of it too, for a lot of the conversation that we have, are about like um theology or even just about God. And not that we're ever claiming to be like experts in theology, um, but a lot of it, it's just um, one of I think the biggest mistakes is um just making assumptions about people. It's like, "Oh, they're messaging on our platform, they know all about Jesus already. They already know about, you know, the death, burial, resurrection, all these things that, you know, for for those of us that have been um following Jesus for for a matter of time, almost these things that we, I don't say take for granted, but it's like, 'Oh, of course, like everyone knows that.'" But then we have that mistake of, you know, someone's messaging about, "Hey, tell me more about Jesus. I'm interested." And then it's, "Well, now okay, well now this is my opportunity to communicate the gospel. Am I being actually the most efficient? Do I actually even believe this? Um, or even like certain things, do I even believe this anymore? Or does like, um, is this able to be communicated clearly?"

And so I think that's been maybe not the mistake, but I think just something that maybe we weren't anticipating is just again, people from the whole range of the spectrum, from someone that has no idea even how to read the Bible, where to start, who God is, none of these things, right, all the way to the person that's been following Jesus for fifty years. And um, that's I think one, like the biggest lessons, just you just never know. Just don't make assumptions about people. And um, again, it kind of leans back to your initial point about the reach. It that was like we're kind of anticipating, but we actually had no idea. And so it's just, there's so much again, so much preparation that you can do, but um, at the end of the day, you just never know. And um, you can't assume anything about anyone. Again, people that are seeking to learn about God, again, what a privilege it is that we can introduce someone to the gospel through, you know, this platform. And so um, that's always, and even to even to the state, you know, years later, it's something that we're continuously like, "How do we be the best at telling the gospel? How do we make it even more clear?" That's like, "Oh, of course, like it makes sense." But for the person that doesn't have the benefit of, "Oh, I've been to church before," or those sorts of things, you know, you're talking a lot about the theology, and it's it's a wide range of need.

I'm curious, are you dealing with pastors? Like, you, you're as you're managing, as you're building your teams, are these pastors on the church side that are engaging with these people? Is is it lay people? Is it bi-vocational? Like, what is the average person on the church home side that's engaging with these people in need?

Even for the way that our team is is built, so you know, for me being able to manage and lead the the actual pastor chat team, so I have um, I have people on my team with that, you know, report to me where their sole job is um, but not their sole job, but their main responsibility is pastor chat, the hours that that were online. Um, but even a big part of that too, it's you know, again, there's only so many bodies that we have that can operate pastor chat. So even for a lot of our actual pastors on staff and people part of the ministry team, um, you know, it's it's almost in part of their job description of, "Hey, it's also, but you'd like, we'd love for you to be actually volunteering on pastor chat as well," because again, it's part of, if you're a pastor and your sole job is, you know, to to connect with people, uh, we'll pastor chat as a platform that we have that a lot of people are connecting with. And so yeah, it makes sense for you know, a lot of our pastors to, "Hey, also be on pastor chat, you know, when you can." So um, yeah, but to answer your question, we have actual like dedicated staff. Um, but again, pastor chat is all operated from church home staff and pastors.

So how do you handle like one a.m.? So one a.m. Pacific time is two, three, four a.m. uh, Eastern. Uh, like, are you getting global reach overseas where there's a demand for that? Like, is it is it maybe like time slipped where somebody can reply back when they're awake six hours later? Like, how how urgent is pastor chat in some of those after hour situations?

Yeah, I would say um, to answer your question, how do I handle at one a.m., um, I'm probably fast asleep at that point. Um, but that, even that's again about the the reach. And I think again, where where God is leading our church and again, the reach of um, we really weren't anticipating maybe how many people interact. And so even currently, we're not like twenty-four seven, but in the future, how awesome would that be of you know, our our platform could it be twenty-four seven? And so um, yeah, it currently we're you know, we're not twenty-four seven, but that's something that we'd love to be able to do in the future. But again, it's one of those things that even when we're not online and someone's not able to chat with the pastor right then and there, you know, there are ways, you know, again, a messaging and then we'll be able to get back to them once we're we're back online. And so even for most of our staff, um, a good majority still kind of live on the west coast. And even as we're looking at expansion and um, really building from that of you know, how do we, how do we schedule it, have it so we can stay stay open longer. Um, so for you know, our international community that they can be able to um, to communicate. And even for those on the East Coast, making it a little bit easier for the um, you know, them to be able to interact.

So are you um, as you're exploring the decentralized model, and I've been talking with um, with Mark Aventi about this, and and actually I think you guys are doing twenty-five targeted cities somewhere around there. I'm actually I'm down in Miami, Florida, and I know that Miami was one that ended up and actually helped them get connected to a emissions partner. But could you, could you, are you comfortable speaking to that? Maybe describing a little bit of what the decentralized model looks like? And I'd love to know how pastor chat is maybe coming along and helping or engaging in in some of that. So can you can you elaborate a little bit on that?

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Um, you know, it's been part of again, our I think our journey over the last few years. Um, even I think starting, and I think prior to the you know, rename to church home, but um, you know, there's all the stats and all the research that even shows again, COVID played a huge part of that, I think, as well. But even just the idea of church and at least here, church in you know, North America in the western world, where it's so often disassociated with like uh, something that we do on Sunday. Um, and you know, there's something wrong with that, you know, I think the heart, genuinely, is for the most part um, in the right place. But um, again, coming out of COVID and seeing this the renewed appetite for connection and something that again, for a lot of people, we weren't able to have, you know, in the middle of that. And again, really putting the focus back on what the church actually is. And it's not about this building that we occupy for a couple hours on a weekend and it's like empty the rest of the week. I know they're like, honestly, church is um, is about people. I know that's something that's so fundamental and like, "Oh, of course, like yeah, of course, we all know that." It's like the basis. But that's even our our the whole idea of what's like church home, of, "Hey, what would it look like if church was not something that you just go to, but again, we are the church? Why why couldn't church be gathering? It is gathering of people. But why did, what does that look like if the gathering was actually in my home? Or what if it was um, you know, in a place where maybe it's not as intimidating for someone that's brand new of like, 'I would never go to a church building on a Sunday, but yeah, I would love to to come to a coffee shop where I'd love to, you know, come to a you know, another public space where it's a little bit more intimate and um, I can connect with God in that manner?'"

Um, and so yeah, even if with the the rename of church home to church home, things like pastor chat um, and again, where we just feel like God was leading our church of, "Um, let's try to get out of the building as much a little bit more than than we have been." And and not that we've totally gotten rid of feelings that we still have large services and that sort of thing, but it's also like it's not the end-all be-all. And even to my point, I think with pastor chat earlier, there's a there's a lot of people out there that are hungry for the gospel, want to know about Jesus, but I don't know about the whole like church on Sunday thing, like or just doesn't work with their schedule. Um, and so yeah, even this whole thing of like decentralization of um, no longer um, do we want just like church to be based on who, well, who's going to speak live on Sunday or um, you know, what event is happening? And those are very important things to not to minimize them, but again, it can't be like the end-all be-all. And so even with the focus of decentralization, "Hey, like church home, we don't want this to be based on a personality or one pastor or you know, these sorts of you know, events or anything that like, of course, the number one priority is Jesus." And so that's kind of the idea with like decentralizations. Like, when you think of church home, the ideas like we don't want it to focus like, "Oh, it's this, like this is who pastors it or you know, this, they do these really cool events or these cool conferences." No, it's like the community aspect, it's the people. Um, and so yeah, you know, even the kind of initial goals, like, "Hey, what would it look like if we really focused in you know, our energy and time and building community where we might not have the the um, ability that you have like a big building or something like that? Um, and what would it look like building like organic community that way?" Because it, you know, and again, all the stats and everything shows is um, even with church growth for a lot of churches and in America, it's kind of just transfer growth of which is not a bad thing necessarily, but um, we're also on mission to reach new people for God. And so um, even just being innovative and and again, it's like not all that innovative if you read the book of Acts, but it's um, yeah, just again, something that, "Let's try something. Let's swing for the fences and let's try building community where maybe we don't have the benefit of, 'Oh, the fallback is is just Sunday.'" And that's where we've seen just incredible just opportunities and continuing to to build upon that.

So hey, I got to tell you, Jonathan, you're spot on right there. And and church home is a perfect example of this because what you're seeing is that the buildings are going to reach a certain type of person. The buildings that church home has in Seattle, the buildings they have in Washington, not Washington through, these I'm sorry, in Los Angeles, uh, we'll continue to reach people. It will be effective in ministry up to a point. Now, unfortunately, over the grand scheme of America in the past twenty-five years, we've lost

25 percent of involvement in church and so what we're missing is really what church homes discovering we can continue to reach people by doing something different. The type of person that's going to engage in a decentralized model or a micro church model or a watch party model is different from then what we're going to see to the type of person reaching the physical building. The type of person that's reached in virtual reality is different than the type of person that's reached by the building. A digital church same thing. And so like it's really getting back to this and Jonathan you've used the word imagination a couple times and innovation. You know I say and through digital church network the church digital so many of my friends are using the word missional imagination where man church if we could figure out how to actually listen to the people that have crazy ideas within our churches right now, the person who's thinking outside of the box and I don't know give them an opportunity to do something. We just within the past couple months you might appreciate this Jonathan. We did a podcast with Seacoast which is a mega church on the other coast. They're up in the Carolinas and they ran this like secret experiment. They didn't tell anybody about it. I think we were like the first time it was talked about publicly on the podcast but they created a the intern, the 20 year old unpaid intern came up with an idea and essentially the idea was hey why don't we open a Discord channel unbranded for Seacoast and do discipleship within the channel and oh by the way let's talk to some Christian influencers that aren't connected to the church and see if they'd be willing to use their influence to point people to the channel. They've got like three to four thousand people that are now going through some sort of a discipleship process in Discord. It's a freaking genius idea and it came from a 20 year old unpaid intern who would by the way Seacoast if you're listening pay the intern just throwing that out there. But what happens is if we think outside the box church, if we start to empower some of these ideas even something like a micro church network or a watch party, a micro site in some of these locations like Jonathan and church home we're trying to do man, we can reach a different type of person than we typically can with our just our buildings.

Now this is what this is the question I want to ask Jonathan. Sorry that was like a monologue and let me get back. You just you got me hyped up man. I just I love this topic. What's the role of digital? What's the role of pastor chat? What's the role of app gluing all these connections together? Like you're creating a decentralized movement. I'm willing to bet there's some level of centralization or unifying across. Is digital involved in that?

Yeah, 100 percent. And I think again it's something that we continue to try to make it a better version of it and integrate it even more because again whether and you know for even a lot of our staff maybe or even me personally initially like isn't that is it going to be that effective like or is this going to be kind of a flash in the pan sort of thing? Like um this like it might, it's a good idea maybe in theory but like is it going to last? And even just stepping us outside of the church space of yeah if you look around of course like it's not only lasting but it's only getting more. Um it's getting bigger and bigger. Even like you were saying the idea you know with things like virtual reality who knows where that's going to look like in a year, three years, five years. Um you know even again with even the example I think as well like the you know church and buildings again we continue to do that. We're not like oh that's like it's evil now we're never gonna do this again like you know but it's even that again that idea of meeting people where they're at and for a lot of people even from the digital side of things listening to our messages or wanting to you know talk with someone digitally there could also be things that we don't even necessarily think of initially where it could be it could be because of physical reasons health reasons those sorts of things where it's just not conducive for someone that wants to be a part but if we just focus on just one thing is that limiting someone else where that's not possible?

And I think even again and I promise this will kind of relate back to your initial question even the thing with like um you know a service on a Sunday in a building again it's great we're going to continue to do it and it's awesome but you know for a lot of people again it's maybe brand new to not even just God but just new to like look they moved into the area they're looking for friends they're looking for community. Not that obviously we're not it's we're intentionally doing it but you know just natural enemy church will see this or like someone walks in just for whatever reason they happen to get missed by being greeted um and they go sit in service don't meet anybody then they leave and now they're lonelier than they were when they walked in and it's like you know that's a thing that we obviously have seen all the stats with like just church attendance and those sorts of things.

And so again with the digital side of you know someone that wants to connect with church home could begin physically in person in a big building in a church at home group whatever that case is we just want to have all the bases covered so again no matter how someone's connecting with us we want it to all kind of work in sync. Um even for example myself um you know I'm part of uh I lead to help kind of lead like a digital group that's um filled with people that are again they don't live in Seattle where I live. The other person like that also leads they live in Los Angeles and we you know it's like a Bible, it could be like we'll do a Bible study sometimes or we'll go through you know leadership podcasts or things like that and it's the people that in that group they're like some of my closest friends and I may have not physically met them in person but that relationship that connection is still there.

And so I think even when it comes to again like with technology and um our app and um you know websites and all these sorts of things at the end of the day those are things that can continue to be improved and make it you know a better experience for the user but at the end of the day it's also just a means to an end and we're not gonna it's not the end-all be-all but we can leverage that technology and again get back to the initial like goal of pointing people to God and helping them connect to community that's what they're looking for.

And so it's an ongoing thing like a lot of our work is again improving systems making technology even better because again stepping outside of the church space this has been happening in every other realm or area or business or things like that and it's like why not you know not that there's anything wrong with tradition and we still obviously love tradition and that sorts of stuff but you know the church the capital C church is not historically known as like the innovative space and that sort of thing but why couldn't it be? Why couldn't we use the example I love of Discord like how big especially that it's gone over the last couple years and in a very similar sense of kind of the decentralization like it's all like online but you think of all the communities genuine communities that people love being a part of and they feel you know you know loved or supported with something because of like a Discord like how amazing is that? It's almost like things like with Discord and stuff like that they're doing church community better than churches are and we're guilty of that and it's like yeah we can learn from that and why not innovate and build something new that will help not only reach the current generation but even looking ahead of the next generation the generation that's coming um and again keeping that focus of Jesus and community but just it might be the tools could look a little different.

Yeah that that's great beautiful vision. I love this idea with uh with the Discord and um uh you know what I did a talk I'm kind of it's not self-promotion I'm sorry but I did a talk on this and I just put it on YouTube uh of talking about asynchronous communities um and how decentralized uh churches can utilize or churches can utilize uh an asynchronous community to like Discord to become decentralized and so we'll put a link in it in the show notes and and um while I'm talking about show notes we'll link to actually the church home app as well so you all can can get a feel for that um and how it operates.

Let me ask like if somebody fills out a a church uh if somebody starts a conversation within pastor chat like is there a is it part of the process to try to get them connected into a uh a church home service uh a decentralized location if they're within the city reach of where a church home is going to the main locations another church like what are you what's the what's the funnel look like what's the process engagement process look like with somebody who walks into to church or to pastor chat?

Yeah really really great question as well um you know of course it's something that's like on a case-by-case basis um but for the most part you know when someone messages in pastor chat they're the primary thing that we've noticed it's someone that's looking for prayer about whatever could be going on you know quote unquote big or little happening in their life and so you know again our heart is as pastor guys we want to just be able to serve people and again point people to God and you know there's going to be instances where you know in an ideal world like yeah it's like are you part of like church home community like there's a group you know in your area or if not you know big part of what we've been you know being able to converse about like decentralization of um you know people that are looking for community and it's even even for us of we can empower someone like hey would you would you consider even hosting church home community where you live and you know impacting people where you live um because that's that's gonna be a big part of you know with our model and again what we're hoping to do and what God's called us to do.

And so you know again it's going to be case by case. You know if someone's coming in something like very serious and uh not to make light by any means but you know people like hey a passing just happened like in my family would just love like scripture like prayer you know that of course that we're gonna do that and then it's like are you part of a church home group like yeah maybe not necessarily that's a little tone deaf and they got maybe not you know not the best way. Even we have like different workflows that we are continuing to build and even make even better just depending on what someone is asking you and so um again at the end of the day it's we even show like when you come across pastor hey this is a space where you can ask questions ask for prayer if you need support however we can help um to the best of our ability that's what we're there for but yeah you know and it's pretty also pretty amazing too that people will come across pastor chat and they actually don't know it's like tied to church or like a lot of times people are like church home like like you know at the end they were a church and some people actually don't know that and that's actually pretty awesome.

Um, because then that gives us an opportunity of someone that's, you know, not part of a church already or just again they're looking for a community. Um, if we have something that's current right now that um they can be a part of, awesome. If not, hey, could you consider? Would you consider, you know, hosting community? Um, and really for us really diving deep into that. And um, again, part of this whole model of building community outside of just where we've always been. Yeah, I am so in love with this conversation. I'm gonna be, I'm gonna just be very transparent right here. Uh, Jonathan, you, uh, Church Home is probably one of my top five favorite churches in America. Like, uh, and I would probably say number one, but if I did, somebody else is going to get really upset at me and my own pastor is going to call me out publicly. Reality Church down here in Miami. And so I don't want to do that. Uh, but definitely love what you guys are doing, love the uh, the approach, the heart behind it, and just the man, just even the spirit of innovation. Hey, let's try something, see how it works. We're not experts in this, but we're gonna carve out the road. And definitely have, have just even loved this conversation of how pastor chat can lead towards decentralization and lead towards empowering people. I'm not quoting it publicly. Ninety-eight, not publicly. Ninety-eight, uh, outside of the physical reach of the physical buildings like that. That's just a uh, incredible opportunity that Church Home is realizing. And man, thank you uh, for the time here, obviously, but for the work that you're putting in to make this happen. This has been incredible. As we're landing the plane here, uh, Jonathan, any closing thoughts?

No, well, yes, I guess. Um, but number one, Jeff, I really appreciate um, even just those kind words that you said. And um, you know, at the end of the day, it's um, you know, myself, I'll be number one to say, and even our team, um, we're just as average as anyone else. Um, you know, on surface it could be, oh, that's a cool thing and all these things. And um, you know, again, it's all ultimately we feel like that's what God's calling us to do. But it's it's all around this fundamental, fundamental idea of um, we're called to preach Jesus. And a lot of people, as he does, and does that, maybe look different as time goes on, could be. Um, but you know, again, at the end of the day, we're not any. We're just average, ordinary people that love an extraordinary God and his extraordinary love for humanity and his creation. And so um, yeah, that's just that's just our heart. I think um, and something we, at least for me personally, I never like, oh, like, look how great this has been, how cool we are. It's like, no, like, we can always continue to um, build things and make things better. And again, with the idea of how can this serve people better? And you know, for a world that is so desperate for Jesus and for a world that's um, you know, searching for truth and looking for, obviously, what we know that Jesus, who he is, and what he provides. Um, you know, that's just that's that's what motivates us every day. That's why, you know, for us as a team, it's never been about you know, clocking in, clocking out, but you know, this is our heart as a team and something that we just want to continue to cultivate. I know for, you know, anyone that's listening or watching, um, you know, for us, at the end of the day, you know, I kind of use the example, we just want to swing for the fences because why not? Um, because, you know, people's lives are on the line. Not to make it like super dramatic, but it's um, yeah, there's there's a world that's hungry for Jesus, and maybe they just don't know that what they're looking for um, is Jesus and the Gospel. And for us, a lot of what motivates us, like, seems good to us and the Holy Spirit. So again, ultimately, this church is not built on one person or you know, a team or anything like the lead pastor of this church is Jesus. As cliche as that might be, but you know, we're just we want to be obedient where we feel like God's called us. And we know that our calling might look a little different than another church, and that's totally okay because we're not all called to do the same things. But we're all called to do the same thing and to reach people.

I love the heart of a humble disrupter, and and so the humility you show is is awesome. Uh, swinging for the fence is is great, but there's a part of this also, like it, and I'll call it out for you, is that you you took a risk. And by you, I mean the organization. I mean so many others that that have paved this way. And you know, Mark shows that that humble disrupter as well in the conversations that we've had. We'll link to that that podcast that we, I think I've at least done two, maybe just one, on the podcast. And it was something else with it anyway, we'll link to it in the show, which you can dig into it. But the heart is is that there's a risk that's involved. And and minimize the risk, build a sandbox, figure out ways to to fire the BB before the bullet, before you drop the bomb. Like, you know, do it in pencil before pen, before permanent marker. You can, I can use whatever analogy makes sense to your people. But try to figure out how to experiment with some of this stuff in ways that make sense. And then once you get a proof of concept, keep building on it. You don't get a proof of concept, keep experimenting and iterate, trying something different. And I just I love that you guys are so aggressive in this space. And I can keep gushing stuff all day long. Unfortunately, I don't have time because I got to jump into another call. One of my other top favorite churches in America, Tyler Sansum, uh, from uh, First Capital Christian in Carmel, Indiana. Uh, I got lead pastor over there. I got to jump on a call with him. And yes, I did just drop a name, but he is uh, is one of the top five as well. You guys actually, you, it would be interesting to connect Church Home and First Capital together. It's a much smaller church. I'm down. It's much smaller church, but as aggressive, decentralized, micro locations, uh, pastoring digitally, discipling digitally, like, incredible vision. Oh my gosh, I'm gonna figure out how to make this up. I'm gonna bring the two together somehow. Like, we're gonna make it happen.

Let's make it happen today. I'm in because not today. I gotta go. Not today, because I do have to go. But Jonathan, thank you for the time, sir. Coming on here, I appreciate it. Check out the links in the show notes for more resources. But for Jonathan, this is uh, Jeff, for the Church Digital, Digital Church Network, and a whole bunch of other stuff. Thanks for jumping on the show here. We'll see you next time on the podcast. You have a good day.