EP269 - Neil Cole & Applying Church 3.0 to Digital Churches

Welcome to the Church Digital podcast. Through this podcast, we'll talk about the technological innovations within the church, but more than that, we'll protect itself. We'll address deeper questions. Is disciple making possible digitally? How should we approach the digital mission field? Can a biblically grounded church operate in digital space? And where does the metaverse fit into all this? Whether you're a big or small church, an established church or a startup church plant, the Church Digital's goal is to help churches like yours learn to be a multiplying church digitally and physically. Our heart is that churches like yours would discover a newfound focus on disciple making that will revolutionize your church. And now here's your host, Jeff Reed.

Hey everybody, welcome to the Church Digital podcast. Jeff Reed here once again, founder of the Church Digital, co-founder Digital Church Network, and oh by the way, I work for Leadership Network, which is completely relevant right here right off the top. Because we're bringing in a guy that historically has done some work with Leadership Network, and I'm really excited about this conversation we're gonna get into now. Neal Cole, who is the guest on today's show, wrote a book that was hugely influential in my life. We had Leonard Sweet on a couple months ago, and you know, talking about Seoul Tsunami, which was another one of these books that really just hit me at the right time. And Neil Cole's Church 3.0, man, listen, if you're gonna ask me which one was more influential, Neil Cole or Leonard Sweet, I'm gonna have a hard time answering that question. My wife would probably say Leonard Sweet. I think when we really look at the decentralized mindset of really what's come, especially now in this post-COVID environment as we're seeing where digital and wherever church plants get out there, man, Neil Cole and Church 3.0 was incredible.

And so it was funny on Facebook just even a couple weeks ago I was having a conversation about some of the things in Neil Cole's book. We'll get into this Church 3.0 that was published in 2010. I guess it's been a minute since it's been around, and it's still getting talked about on social media. And so I'm reliving some of this and digging in with some other micro church guys, and it just occurred to me, why don't we get Neil Cole on the podcast? And Neil was gracious enough to actually say yes to the conversation. And so ladies and gentlemen, I want to invite Neil Cole into the conversation.

Hey Neil, how are you doing today?

I'm doing good. Thank you, Jeff, for inviting me.

Awesome. It's a pleasure to have you on here, and I'm so excited. I'm so giddy right now about this. I can feel myself like talking way too fast. I feel like I'm the Micro Machines guy just rolling, rolling, rolling. But I gotta slow it down a little bit, so I apologize. But this is an honor. Devion also bring it into the conversation. Jason Morris, JMo, formerly from Westside Family from Rezy and Pushpay. Jason, thanks for jumping on.

Yeah, it's an honor to be a part of this conversation. Can't wait.

So Neil Cole's book was very formative in my life. And I'm setting this up, and we'll actually get into the conversation. But coming off of a megachurch environment, reading that book in my early thirties, seeing some of the opportunities of the mega and the multi, but also seeing some of the obstacles and the challenges of that, Neil's book 3.0 was written in 2010, but probably before, definitely before its time. Like today is actually a day where I think Neil's book is powerful and impactful. He was almost a prophet early on when he was talking about this stuff because it was so forward thinking. But not yet, I don't know, attainable, achievable, whatever verb you want to throw there. And so it was just a very powerful book, was published by Leadership Network at the time. And there's so many other titles under them that came out in that season. Like even when I think back to when I had the bookstore, which is a whole other story, you know, some of the books that were published and some of the opportunities we had to help churches through it. But Neil, I would love to maybe just open up with you here as you look back on Church 3.0. And there's plenty of other books we can dig into. Organic Church was awesome as well, others that you hit on. What is it? When you think back on Church 3.0, is it fond memories? Is it frustrating memories? Like this is a decade plus down the road. What's your knee-jerk thought when you think about the experience and maybe some of the response when it comes to Church 3.0, the book?

Well, yeah, mostly it's positive. I had a contract with a deadline and it was coming quick, and that's a book that required a whole lot of research. You had to have lots of footnotes of things, and it couldn't just be cursory footnotes, so you kind of had to dig deep in order to substantiate what you were claiming or you were going to get laughed out of the building. So I asked the Lord to help me with that, and he did. He brought research right to me from all kinds of angles in different places. And I even had some like, there's a part where I talk about multi-site in the book, and the multi-site was a big phenomenon at the time. However, there wasn't any, it wasn't going long enough that there were any books on it. And lo and behold, right when I'm writing on that chapter, a pre-published manuscript shows up in my mailbox on multi-site for an endorsement. And so I had current data on multi-site before it was even published. And I had a guy come to my door who was here to fix plumbing, and he had a story that ended up in the book. He was like, I asked God for help, and he said, here you go. And he just kept bringing me all the information I needed when I needed it. So that was a real fond memory.

I wrote the book basically to answer every question I always get asked about organic church, but I used the book as an excuse to talk about movements. And so the book is really about movements, but it's also in the form of question and answer. So that's all fond memories. We were doing it. Our movement was doubling every year during that time and still to this day it's gone beyond that, all over the world. But yeah, you know, mostly all fond memories of the book. And I enjoyed my relationship with Leadership Network. I have four books that came out with them. And this was the second one.

So it was there was Organic Church that I remember. Church 3.0, what were the other two? I'm just curious.

Church Transfusion, which I co-authored with the shepherd on my apes team, about how to bring missional DNA and multiplication to an established church, traditional church. Nobody's, very few have read that book. They don't think of me as even believing that's possible, but I did write a book about doing it. So it is refuted by the facts. But anyway, and then I also wrote what some people believe to be my best book ever, was Journeys with Them. But that book was so not read that it went out of print almost a few years after it was put out. So I bought, I've gotten back the rights from Leadership Network. I've revised it. I changed it to reach a more younger audience. And it's in the hands of the editor right now. So I hope I summarize out.

Oh, that's cool. So you're republishing, re-releasing it, and you reshaped it to reach a younger audience. It's very, very cool. So let's talk a little bit. You know what you said, Church 3.0 aimed a lot at movement. And through you don't know this, but with Digital Church Network, the nonprofit that I started, Jason's working with, we're actually working very closely with New Thing Network, utilizing their movement system, helping bivocational people, normal people like nine to five people, not seminary-trained pastors, learn how to create disciples, grow them into leaders that are planting churches that are good, developing networks, and starting movements. And so we're, when we look at digital metaverse space, we actually see movement and the opportunity to contextualize movement to reach people that are not interested in going into physical buildings. That's really the heart of what we're trying to do through Digital Church Network.

I would love to hear a little bit. Talk to me a little bit about your movement, the movement that you were doing during the time that you wrote the book, what that maybe has grown to and evolved to now. Obviously it's not digital, or maybe it's probably not digital, but tell me a little bit about what that looks like, you know, even today.

Well, certainly there are digital components to it. There's interaction, there's training online, things like that. But no, I wouldn't say we're a digital church expression yet. Or I shouldn't say no, there's not, there probably is that, but it's not foremost or prominent. Not yet, at least.

So the movement has spread. We were doubling every year for a while, and I think it's continued at that pace, but I can't verify that. So that's just a gut feeling. I'd have to, I would have had to early on hire someone full-time just to track the churches, and I never thought that was a worthwhile expense. So we just gave up on that.

Another thing we did early on is we decided not to put a brand on everything and not to monetize the movement, which I think God honored that and allowed the movement to spread like it did. But at the same time, without doing that, those steps meant some of us behind the scenes would probably be more vulnerable to financial problems and things like that. We swallowed that pill.

Interesting thing to hear is that twelve years ago, Journeys came out, that book I just talked about. It's just following the whole story of Paul from birth to death and looking at how he evolved as a leader so that he finished strong. It's about spiritual formation, but also showing you the lessons he learned to catalyze greater movements and spread further till he's reaching the whole world basically. So that's Journeys.

And when that book came out, it's always a special moment for the author when the book comes in the mail and you actually hold it in your hand for the first time. And that moment I received that book, I held it in my hand at that very moment I heard the Holy Spirit speak to me saying, I'm going to take you through a difficult transition. He didn't tell me how long it would be. He didn't tell me why. He didn't tell me what it would look like. But immediately things fell into place where funding dropped out that was supposed to be there, and we had to let go of my staff, and we had to close our offices. We closed our website down. We shut down the entire business of CMA, which stood for Church Multiplication Associates, which I founded. And we basically pulled the plug on our organization.

Now, because we had made the decision to not monetize the movement and not brand it and not make it dependent upon an organization, the movement thrived when the business collapsed. So that was a good move.

And this transition that he brought me through is twelve years, and it just ended last summer. So for twelve years, he told me not to speak at conferences publicly, not to stop doing social media except he allowed me to post pictures of waterfalls in my travels or pictures of beautiful grandkids, but no content. Sure, I could travel and do training and conferences anywhere in the world except the United States. I even could do a training across the border in Canada that I couldn't do on the other side. So it was kind of weird, but he shut

Me down, put me on pause for 12 years. I could not find a job. I applied to one job that probably there are three people in the world that are as qualified as I am for the job, and I told them I'd do it for half the price, and I still didn't get the job. So it was a weird thing. God was saying no, I don't want you to work. I don't want you to do anything public except overseas, but in the states. And that went on. After seven years I thought, okay, seven is a perfect number, now it's time for it to end. It didn't end then. After ten years I said, okay, Paul has spent ten years in Tarsus. I did my ten years as it up. He said no. Then COVID hit and it was twelve years. So it was twelve hours of being on pause.

And there's a lot of problem. There's a lot of reasons behind that. But I was allowed to continue writing books and did so. But the sales of my books dropped off considerably. What was—and I don't want to get too deep if this is too sensitive—but what was the main lesson? What was the thing that God was, if you're comfortable sharing this, that God was trying to tell you through twelve years?

Yeah, because you said you came out of it. Yeah, so you know, I think both Jeff and I have had those dark moments of the soul. I'm grateful that it didn't last for twelve years, you know, but you know, I understand the feeling and wanting it to be over and God, you know, asking you to hang on a little bit longer.

Yeah, man. One thing, you know, is impressive to me is like I think there's few people in the world that God wouldn't trust twelve years to. Of that, you know, that says a lot for you, because I know I probably couldn't handle it. I haven't really thought of it like that. I just simply, you know, you go through the human things. You start thinking, well, what did I do wrong, Lord? And he would always respond by saying, no, no, this is not discipline. Although if you want to clean this up, you can and you can fix this if you want. There's always room for improvement. But this was not about discipline. And then I'd say, well, okay, what's the lesson, Lord? Just tell me the lesson so we can end this. He says, well, it's not that kind of lesson. It, but if you want, here's some things you can learn. But that's not what this is about.

In the end, I think it really was about, you know, he says Jesus says in John 15, those who are bearing fruit, he will prune so that they will bear more fruit. And so really it was about working on in my life to create in me a different kind of, maybe a different sort of—it sounds almost right to say maturity level, but it's sort of more of a perspective of the world and of myself that is necessary for what's coming.

And I'll tell you something, I'm working a lot with young people.

Wait, wait, wait. I got to stop there for a minute. You say necessary for what's coming. You know, a lot of the things that you've written have been highly prophetic before their time. So when you say prepares for what's coming, my ears perk up because I want to know what that is. And maybe we can put a pin in that so you can finish your thing, but we need to get back to that. We'll bring it back up again.

You know, I work right now with a lot of young people, even college students. And when I tell them this happened for twelve years, imagine from their point of view. Yeah, that's like that's more than half their life. Half their life. So it was a long time. But it was worthwhile, I think. And I've come out of it a little different, you know. I'm less impressed by some people and more aware of others that I normally wouldn't have been. I cry more easily. I, um, okay, I think I'm going to tell you something. When all that happened, we had started off that twelve years. We had saved almost twenty thousand dollars because my daughters were getting to marriage age and they were both getting close to that. So we were saving up for the weddings and all that disappeared within a summer trying to support staff and stuff as we found move them on. And then there's a lot of things that happen where there's this debt that would have been minimal for the organization and they're all transferred to me. So I went from having savings to having the debt of the same amount.

But for those twelve years, there's not a single bill that was never paid on time. And the weddings were beautiful. I couldn't have paid any more money to make them better. It was a wonderful experience. And out of it all, I came out a different person. In fact, one of the things that changed me the most is I went from zero to five grandkids in three years. And putting on Grandpa—what we call, what my kids call Papa—my grandkids, I became Papa. It felt like that was a role I was born to do. I didn't even realize until it happened. So all of that came out of that twelve years. It was all worthwhile. I wouldn't wish it on anyone, but the results I think are good.

I think things that are to come, that God has been, you know, it says in the Bible that judgment begins in the household of God. And so there's been a judgment going on for the past three to five years where he's lifting the roof off of the church and turning the light and shining it down saying, here's what's actually happening in these churches. And so the largest denominations are being exposed for a lot of ugly things. The largest church, the most prolific large church in America, its leadership was exposed. The largest church in the world, the pastor was arrested. The largest church of Singapore, the pastor was arrested. The largest church in Australia—oh, it goes, it just keeps going. All of this is God's judgment on the household of God.

And I think we're coming to the end of that. I think that's been done. And next is an awakening of young people. And it's going to be a movement where it's going to be carried on the shoulders of young people. I believe it will be like similar to the Jesus People Movement. And ironically, right now there's a movie out at the movie theaters about the Jesus People Movement. I know my wife and I are going to watch it tonight. I think we are seeing a birth of something new. But I don't think the new wine will be thrust into the old wineskins like what happened with the Jesus People Movement.

And I think that they will have different language, different, although alternative, they will still be spiritual values that come from truth and love. But they will look very different in the way they behave to the way our parents and grandparents, their parents and grandparents, behaved as Christians. I think their language will be more coarse. I think they will not be as upset about someone smoking a cigarette or even smoking weed. I think those kind of things are going to be evident in the new movement and probably will put a target on it. But I don't think there will be any ammunition in the cannons that are fired at it.

So the new movement will birth something totally, totally new that we haven't seen before. That will be more decentralized, it'll be non-hierarchical, purely relational, not even organizational. They won't even need a 501c3. There won't be that. It'll just be person to person. It'll spread quickly. It will be about me, Jesus, and you in relationship. And I think that's going to happen. And I think that's what God is preparing me for, for twelve years.

You know, we're already seeing a lot of that come about. Where we're seeing, I mean, to be honest, I have had conversations six, seven hundred times at this point with normal people that want to plant an expression, a digital expression of a church. Not no seminary training, no sending organization or denomination, no funding. Hey, Jeff, I have this crazy idea about what discipleship can look like digitally. Am I crazy? Am I, is this possible? And literally, like, these conversations have happened over the past three years. And those first conversations were, yeah, maybe you are crazy, but go and give it a shot. To at this point now, when I have these conversations, oh man, there's like two or three people that are doing the similar thing. But can I introduce you to them? Maybe the two of you can talk. Like, we're seeing this come about. And seventy-five percent of the people, eighty percent of the people, are bivocational. And so it's the new priesthood and the priesthood of all believers re-embracing that idea, contextualizing the message of it. It's so good.

Neil, I want to encourage you with this. We have the saying through Digital Church Network, and maybe this is overstating, but it fits with us. We're kind of weird people. Sometimes it's, and it's in its, pioneers get shot, settlers get rich. And you know, in my ministry life, and it sounds like Neil with yours, man, we've been pioneers. And not that I'm even trying to compare myself to what you've gone through within the past twelve years, but we are in this season of, if we're thinking different, well, the organized church doesn't like change. And so taking shots, removing, discarding, displacing, that often happens. And I know it does in my life, and it sounds like it's had in yours. And so man, I want to thank you just up front here. Thanks for taking some of those shots. Thanks for taking some of those bullets and allowing others to come behind you, because the micro church movement, the decentralized movement, a lot of what you were talking about ten, twelve, thirteen years ago, it's not a pipe dream anymore. Like, the established church may not recognize this validity, but for the people that are in that field, the goers that are going, man, they're seeing fruit as a result of a lot of what you laid out a decade plus ago.

Right. I see that. I see that and I rejoice. Yeah, there's some times where I'll be in a room full of people and at ten o'clock their phones will go off and they won't have any clue that that traces back through me. Or they'll, you know, and they'll just, they'll pray, attend to be prayer, and I'm sitting there and they have, they'll tell me about it. Or I've had experiences where someone will say, you should, you should try Life Transformation Groups. This is how it works. And they don't know that I developed that. So it's kind of a fun thing to do. But you're right. Pioneers get shot.

You know what I find fascinating? Even in the season as difficult as it is, I there's facets of this that I just can't help but see connections with like what Jeff was talking about with the expressions, the digital expressions that we get a chance to be a part of. Because you know, we all have the same mission, really, because Jesus gave it to us. There isn't, or at least shouldn't be, a lot of question around that. But the ministry model that we lay on top of the Great Commission, that has a funding model on top of that, right? Those are the things that are adjustable. And what we're finding is the ministry model digitally is so lean that if you don't have to pay a mortgage, what do you need a 501c3 for? Right? If you don't, it just takes so much of the organizational overhead off of the plate and allows people to minister in a way that is probably more primal that we find in Scripture. That it just unlocks things for people to express Jesus church in different ways.

And what I find fascinating is what we're experiencing right now is just what you have paved the way for over the past twelve years. Where you know, there is no funding model, there is no business model that, and arguably that's not the point, because Jesus didn't have a 501c3 either, right? So it's taking us back to our first love, taking us back to our primal roots of what Jesus actually taught us to do. And let the business model be what it would emerge or become or need to be as needed. But let's not start with that. Let's start with what Jesus wants to do in this time, post-COVID, postmodern. You know, and I'm right with you, man. I feel.

Like this new generation is experiencing revival and exploring new expressions of his church that Jesus is building, and it just fires me up. I think so, you know, I was just talking. I was just in Thailand last week and one of the leaders I was with, I just happened to mention that there won't be organizations in the future of the movement, and that just didn't compute. There's just no way. I can't even imagine a Christianity without organizations. I mean, how can you even be Christianity if you don't have an organization? Is the way he was thinking. And I said, well, read the book of Acts. There you go. It's possible. I just think that those who are institutionalized and their entire identity and source of support comes from the institution, that just can't even imagine it. And if you bring it up, it's too much. They just don't want to hear it. And I think that's pretty common and normal, but for those who aren't institutionalized, it becomes good news. And it'll be great for the gospel to be good news again because for a long time, for real, it's been something else.

Yeah, totally with you. It reminds me of the reaction of the priests and Pharisees when Jesus said, oh, you know, I'm going to tear down this temple and rebuild it. You know, and it's going to be a temple that you don't understand. And because of that statement, they kill him because they just could not conceive of a relationship with God in any other way.

I guess that makes Jesus a pioneer.

Yeah, he did get killed for it. So I, you know, I guess so. You know, it's funny, Neil. Like, as I was flipping back through the book, preparing for the podcast, I ran across this quote. And like, this paragraph summarizes exactly what I and what I believe Jamo Jason sees digital church as and the potential of it. And so I'm literally quoting from your book, thirteen years ago, "The Change: The Church 3.0 is a shift from a program-driven and clergy-led institutionalized approach of church to one that is relational, simple, and viral in its spread. Instead of saying church is something that serves its people, church becomes people who serve God, one another, in a hurting world. The changes from organization to an organism that is healthy and reproductive. Church is no longer a place to go but a people to belong to. Church is no longer an event to be at but a family to be part of. Church is not a program to reach out to the world but a people that bring the kingdom of God with them into a lost world with a contagious spirit."

Like, my heart for what digital churches can be, you wrote thirteen years ago in this thing. And it's like, as I'm falling back, and this is like, oh my, like it's so beautiful. Let me ask you this. You know, and you know, I'm taking your words, I'm applying it into a different context, which is stretching a little bit, which is fine. I mean, that's why we write books, right? We write books so that other people can contextualize it and reshape it. As you look back on your book, on specifically Church 3.0, what did you nail? What did you feel like, hey, you know what, 2023, we are seeing this right now? And is there anything, if you could be honest, is there anything that you're like, oh my gosh, I was way off base with that one? What do you think?

You know, I've been asked, would I write Church 4.0? Well, no. I think we did off air, but that may be another conversation. Yeah, I was so, no, I don't think we've really fully accomplished Church 3.0 yet to upgrade to 4.0. But I think I wouldn't write a new book or change that much of Church 3.0, but I might add a new chapter because I think what we will ultimately discover, and it will be Church 3.0 in its fullest expression, is that we respond more like a murmuration of starlings than even a network of sorts. So that it's much more like a school of fish that just responds immediately and moves as one, even though it's all these small parts. I think that in the future, that will be the organic expression of the kingdom of God. And you won't be able to find a discernible network. What you'll find is that everybody listens to Jesus and does what he says immediately, and it's supernatural almost. And I think we will need that because the world itself is quickly going dark and hostile, and it will be hostile specifically to those who are in Christ. And I think the persecution that will come from that will be of a nature that no one, no Christian has ever faced, because, you know, like in previous persecution, you're hoping your neighbor or your great aunt don't turn you in. But today, your Samsung TV will turn you in. Your smartphone is already feeding them inside information about your life, and they know more about you already than you know about yourself. And so the persecution we will need to live a more supernatural life to survive. And I even think the world itself will become more supernatural so that we will not be amazed as much by the miraculous. It'll just become a necessity to survive. So I think that the expression of Church 3.0 at its fullest will be more like a murmuration of starlings than it will be the typical network theory that we have laid out in that book. So maybe the advance, or maybe Church 4.0, is this murmuration of starlings or this school of fish mentality. Maybe it's maybe it's 3.1, 3.5, you know, some variable in there.

Yeah, you know, say 4.0 for when the metaverse, I don't know, you can get lost in that. You know, it's interesting. I had a conversation, and I'm not going to be able to give credit to this quote, but I've had a conversation recently with somebody over at New Thing. We, the DCN, we work with a New Thing Network. And they were telling me about a, it was a Chinese missionary or someone was over here was speaking. And they were talking, Jason, was this your story about the, oh my gosh, it was the, this Chinese person was asked a question. He was telling stories about how supernatural activities that he's seeing in China. And he's giving testimony to everything that's happening, you know, in the Far East. And somebody asks this person, you know, why do you not think we see it in America? Why do we not see the supernatural activity in America like you're seeing over there? And the response from this person from the Far East was, well, you have insurance. I mean, you have these things that you're dependent on. And so you don't, you don't need to see God. You will not see God move, and because you're not, you're not looking for God to move, you're looking to validate, to work yourself out of that. And it's interesting in this, you know, and I believe this, and Jason, I know we've had this conversation. As the church, as we in culture here in the West, as we move more and more towards a post-Christian environment, post-Christian culture, if we're not already there yet, you know, I do agree. I think we're going to be seeing a lot of persecution. We're going to be seeing a lot of challenges, and which is going to discredit the organized church, the institutionalized church. But it's really, it's going to empower that priesthood of believers that have the relational equity, that have that influence with friends and with family to speak towards things that we are not able to speak to as pastors or at a decreasingly level at this point.

I'm still thinking about that what you just said about swarm theory. That like, that like my mind, I'm still spinning around like the what makes swarm theory work is you don't have an organized network. So there's no network overhead, which is fascinating. But you have what you do have though is a very simple and portable set of simple instructions that interact with everyone else's. And what's, as I think about it, you know, hopefully we're all reading the same book, listening to the same spirit, and following the same God, right? If all of those things are true, and I've noticed this even among other brothers and sisters who I've only met for the first time, I can fly across the world and meet someone who deeply loves Jesus and follows him, and I don't speak his language, I don't understand his culture. You know, there's so much about his life that I do not get, but I instantly have more in common with him than all of the other things combined because of that. And I feel there's a piece of that that resonates with me that I wonder, much like how the persecuted church in China tends to know who the spies are spiritually somehow. They sense it. The spirit tells them that, you know, this guy's, you know, out to destroy the movement or whatever. And it's like, okay, fine, did you, they just listen to the spirit, right? And what I think is there are so many people that are listening to the spirit in that way in digital spaces, in VR, talking with other people who are doing the same thing, that it's there. It's beginning to coalesce. That's what's fascinating. And it's an interesting description that you gave. I'm still kind of processing that one.

Well, let me ask Neil. Like, as you mentioned earlier, talking about your movement, there's some aspects to what you're doing is digital. The training and communication, and that's post-COVID. We're definitely seeing that, you know, in some decentralized and in some micro environments, more efficient training digitally compared to physical only. And as we're talking, and I would love, honestly, I would love honest feedback. Pros, cons, strengths, weaknesses, opportunities. You guys are way off base, you know? We're so we're talking literally applying some of your principles into digital and metaverse, into Facebook groups, into video games, into Twitch and Discord and virtual reality and Altspace and like, maybe bleeding edge concepts here. What's your take? Like, where are we right? Where are we wrong? What challenges are we going to need to overcome? I just would love your honest opinion on this.

Sure. Well, if you talk about digital church, I think people my age are going to respond negatively, think for the most part, thinking that's not possible. You have to have face-to-face, heart-to-heart connection with people. But I think they're not taking into consideration that this new emerging generation, this is all they've known. You know, they don't know of a world where there isn't an iPhone. They don't have a history where there isn't digital connection. So they have been, they have evolved to be more suited for a digital expression of church than their parents and grandparents ever were. So I think that we'll find this generation is more equipped for it and able to do it with or without permission or blessing. So I do see that happening. I see new opportunities for connecting that way where you have, like, I teach a seminary class that is people from all over the world. It's kind of remarkable to do that. It's a blessing. And you have simple and easy expressions that can reproduce and grow and spread fast. Those are all positives for it. I see that you can apply everything in Church 3.0 in a digital way.

My headphones are about to die, so if that happens, I'll just take them out and figure something else out. On the negative side, you could feel more isolated without human connectivity and contact with people. So I think that's something that needs to be supplemented in some way. I think, you know, in Christianity, wearing a mask has always been a problem, but wearing an avatar is an even grander expression of a mask. And you can put forward somebody more easily that is not who you really are and cover up the things in your life that are perhaps more vulnerable or would be vulnerable if you let people see them, and they don't want them to be seen. So I think

I think you can hide more easily behind an avatar than you can't even behind a smiley face mask that you wear on Sundays. Um, I think that you're more vulnerable to, in a sense, you. The government could shut down church immediately by just unplugging you, so you're very vulnerable to persecution. All they have to do is flip the switch and you no longer exist. Um, so that's that's a vulnerability I see. Um, and and there are steps being made in Congress even at this very moment to try and uh curtail what's possible on the internet. Um, I think that uh uh COVID was uh exposure of the church's weakness of consumerism and it and it really killed the church. So we, you know, God sent COVID and all the restrictions and it was a way for him to say don't be better attenders, be better neighbors and do things in your home and empower everyone. But I think a lot of churches just said okay, just stay home and we'll do church with simulcast and so they did. They just easily transitioned to a more digital expression of church. But the problem they they ran into that they didn't anticipate is their consumers found better sermons and better music on other websites. And and so soon church consumerism was thrown up and everyone's realized the fault of it overnight. And that's a problem. I think that uh I do think that that it's it's something we need to be thinking about, praying about. You guys are leading the way and I I appreciate that. Uh, those are the the potential problems I see that I could probably come up with another list if I gave it more time. But um, I do see a lot of positives.

Yeah, you know what's um, and and I agree, Neil, with the majority of what you just said. Like the government shutdown is a concern, which is one of the reasons we encourage uh multiple platforms, decentralize, don't be limited to one platform because that's harder to control. Uh, the uh oh, in the simulcasting of services, oh my gosh, like we're um, don't base everything off that. We don't want to create consumers. We want to create disciples that are active uh in digital space as well as physical space. We want to exude the fruits of the spirit physically uh even to the point of of starting micro locations and and connecting in the workplace. Like there's there's lots there. But you know what's interesting and and so often I I hear from people um, the mask thing where uh it's hey, you know what, it's very easy digitally for people to hide uh and it's very easy for people to to catfish, to not be who they really are. And yes, there is there is a level of concern with that. But almost what we really see more often than that, and Jason can attest to this, are people who are far more trusting and open and honest in digital space because, Neil, we're not breathing the same air molecules. Like I'm not even in the same room, Neil. I'm having a conversation with you right now and I'm actually not sure what state you live in. Like we're just we're just having a conversation. And and so that I live in a perpetual state of panic. Awesome. No, that's not true. That no, that's awesome. But that is so freeing for people that to have honest, open, clear conversations where you're not worried about judgment, where you're not worried about looking down on because I don't really know who you are. Like, and that allows for a deeper conversation much quicker. There there is a challenge. There are people that will catfish. There are people that will fake uh, but then there is flip side. There's so much opportunity because then there's this other type of person that just leans into it um towards that. Yeah, well, you get that. You get that even through the Twitterverse and things where you have people will say things there that they would never say to your face. But it also brings out some of the worst things in people.

Well, I think it's there's a couple of things at play. One is I think it reveals a lot of things about people that you're right. They wouldn't say it to your face, not because it's not in their heart, because they just don't have the guts to do it. And when you get something where you see the vitriol, you're getting a little bit more of a glimpse of what's actually going on inside. And what Jesus talked about, out of the abundance of the heart, the mouth speaks. And I think the fingers post, you know, that I think both are true. And it is interesting that you talk about the mask thing because I was kind of like swirling around on that because I get a lot of that uh pushback as well. But I don't know that that is necessarily a digital problem as much as it is a human one. And even to the point where the Apostle Paul was criticized because his letters were fiery but he's unimpressive in person. So even the Apostle Paul was, it felt like there was this disconnect between his writing persona and his actual persona. And that's in the first century. He was stronger on Twitter than he was in person. Right, exactly. I know a lot of people like that where they're stronger on Twitter than they are a person. I know a lot of people like that. And so I I think there's a piece of it where it's it's more of a human thing on both sides of the equation. One is um, people tend to, when they have the possibility to be whoever they could dream of, they usually end up being truly themselves. That's one thing. And the second thing is is when people are on the receiving end of any kind of digital or textual, I'll just say textual because I think it also applies to letters and you know other books, even things like that. When people are on the receiving end of textual communication, you are missing so much more of the picture than if you were face to face with body language, voice intonation, all the things you were just filling those gaps in with your own imagination. What could possibly go wrong, right? Something that could have been communicated in a very um sweet and meek manner can be read the opposite. And we don't have good handles for that on both sides of the equation. One is like human nature, that there's no consequences for what I say. That's one thing. The other thing, human nature is in the absence of information, I will fill it with my imagination, and that could go sideways really quickly. Um, but I don't necessarily again see that as a digital problem. I do see it as a human problem. And I don't think it's by accident either. And this is something that you said that made me think about it, even with the with the idea of the Apostle Paul, is that he tended to um send his letters with a trusted friend. And I think in that way tended to compensate for the downfall or you know the I wouldn't say downfalls, I would just say the yeah, but it's just the limitations of textual communication, right? It has its limits, right? So he he compensated for that in other means. And I'm and what you what you say is very valid. And I think it's it's worth considering of how do we in the digital space compensate for those digital limitations that exist? We need to think of those things and figure that out just like the Apostle Paul did.

You know, it's interesting. I've I've got another quote here um, it's from it's from your book. And this is actually a highlight I'm looking at the Kindle that I had when I read it in 2010. Uh, but you're you're quoting Alan Hirsch. So I don't know whether to give Alan Hirsch, who's been on the podcast, uh, but I don't know whether to give him credit or you credit are you credit for giving him credit. But um, a missional Hirsch goes on to say a missional theology is not content with mission being church-based work. Rather, it applies to the whole life of every believer. Every disciple is to be an agent of the kingdom of God, and every disciple is to carry the mission of God into every sphere of life. We are all missionaries sent into a non-Christian culture. I don't know when Alan Hirsch said that, but it's quoted in a 2010 book. And what's fascinating is in the Kindle, actually wrote a book. I wrote a note at the end of that sentence that says you can't see it on the phone, but it says including online. Like in 2010, the idea of sending um missionaries into non-Christian culture, including that online, was something that that I was, I don't want to be ego here, but I was I was working towards. I was seeing the vision towards that. And and seeing this as an incredible strategy to help empower people to get into this culture.

It's funny you were talking about the first time you hold your book. I mean, this is literally this is book number two. It's not book number one. But the idea of you know, Dave Ferguson's actually one of the reasons we got connected. But Dave gave me permission to write uh a digital and metaverse version of blessed practices and turning that and empowering people to take the that gospel into the digital and metaverse mission fields. We can argue whether or not it's an ecclesiological church. We can argue whether or not you you it meets the biblical mandates and the functions uh in digital and metaverse space. But we can't we can't argue about the mission field. Like there's I have yet to meet a pastor who's like Jeff, you don't need to take uh the gospel into into digital and metaverse. Nobody. Everybody is at least recognizing the opportunities of of of the mission field. And so it's been it's been a lot of fun, sir, taking these ideas uh, taking the challenge of of of the priesthood of all believers, empowering individuals, the multiplying of this, the the contextualizing, the it's better to have a hundred thousand churches of ten than a million person church uh and helping others think differently. It's it's funny. Probably the the biggest challenge that I have when when we're working with planters that want to plant these churches is actually trying to get them to forget everything they think they know about church. Um, because whether it's whether it's physical operation, whether it's um you know, limitations because they're thinking in a mega environment and digital operates much better in a relational micro as opposed to mega, there's a lot of of reprogramming uh in in reimagining what church can be and how to do it in some of these communities. And and your book uh, similar, I mentioned Leonard Sweet earlier. Like both of your books really gave me permission to do this. Uh, there wasn't a lot on this space at the time. You were very uh visionary in this. Leonard Sweet, 1999, at 98, I think is when he wrote a little tsunami, very visionary for its time. And you guys both were huge in my life to to help get to where we are today with this movement. So man, I just wanted to say thank you uh for for doing this and doing the hard work, for taking those shots, those bullets, to get these ideas out to help guys like me, guys like Jason, helping us do what do what we're doing now so that's greatly appreciated on our side.

Great, appreciate it. Thank you. Hey, as as we're wrapping up the the plane here, well, let me ask Jason any any closing thoughts as we're wrapping up here? I think we pretty much hit it. I mean, I'm I'm really looking forward to like that that idea of the of the school of fish and the starling concept. I feel like we've experienced right here a little bit of it where you know, we've never had a chance to sit down and talk, but we're both swimming in the same direction, you know?

Um, Neil, is for wrapping up, any closing thoughts? The the idea, so a lot of times we do church without music because we don't have musicians in the group. And so we've developed non-musical ways of doing worship as a group. But I'll tell you, if you can have music, it's better. It's not necessary to be church, but when you add the music, there's something special about that creation of God that touches your heart in a way that nothing else can. And I'm not saying music in and of itself is all that worship is. I know it's not. But music adds to the element. And in the same way, I think family um, it's a blessing that you can have.

Family living in other states and you can connect online, but if you can be in the same room breathing the same molecules, um, that's a better thing. And I think you would want that too. So I see an online church expression as necessary, as beautiful, as having many opportunities that you don't have any other place. But I think, um, if you ask me personally, does it take the place of flesh on flesh, eyeball to eyeball contact with people? I think it's kind of like the difference between having church without music or having church with music. It's like having—I was gonna say it's the difference between having a black and white or a color TV, but I don't think many of our audience would know what a black and white TV is. You may be dating yourself a little bit with that one. Just a little bit.

Um, and you know what, Neil, I agree with you. Like, the buildings and church in a physical space serves a purpose. Um, what I would suggest is that digitally we can reach people that aren't going to the buildings. And I can tell you stories of digital churches that are reaching eighty to eighty-five atheists, uh, virtual reality, seventy-five de-churched. I can tell you stories of neo-pagans and satanists that are finding Christ in virtual reality and in digital churches that are discipling people that haven't set foot in a physical building church building in a decade. And so like, there's these rich stories where God's moving in this space. And one of the things that I wrestle with in a second, but one of the things that I wrestle with, and I ask this question all the time of the pastors that are in the space: hey, like, you know, at what point do we ask, do we challenge some of these people to stop attending digitally and go physically? Is there a point that we need to? Should we? What's the three-year plan? The five-year plan? Like, what does this look like? And it's interesting, even like the guys and the gals that are planting—it's varying answers. Some of them want to encourage and have intentional plans to get people connected and into physical. Some of them don't. And so this is one of the things that I think time will tell where we'll try to figure that out. Go ahead.

One of the trends we're seeing right now is that more people—there are a lot of people who are more keen to start a business than to start a church. That God is leading people to start communities where they're self-sustainable, they're farming, they are living in community, they're starting businesses that not only bless and support, sustain themselves, but also bless the community. That's a trend happening all over the world. Um, that can happen online, but there's also an element to that where you need to have hand-to-hand contact. So it's almost like I think it's a both and for the future. I think it's something where there's a blending of both, and is a better alternative than just being completely digital or being completely non-digital.

I love it. Yeah, I'm with you, Neil. I think the perfect example of the blending of those two things and the tension of those two things is Second John twelve, where John's saying, hey, I'm writing you pen and ink right now. I long to be with you face to face so that our joy can be full. And in my mind I'm thinking, okay, a couple of things. One, full for who? For John and his buddies, not for me, right? And John didn't—and didn't keep him from sending the letter, right? It didn't keep him from writing the letter because John at the time, I don't think even had the capacity to understand the longevity and the reach that his letter would have, right? Because he's just thinking about his friends. Both are true, right? It is better when you're with friends together, you know, no doubt. But how do you fill in those gaps, you know? And then the question becomes, okay, if we can be a little bit more forgiving with, you know, how we manage the community and the relational glue between us, is it maybe we can play with the cadence a little bit, you know? Maybe—I don't know. We, and again, Jeff is right. You talk to people on this topic, you'll get all different kinds of answers. But this emerging generation is asking those types of questions. And it's the same generation, to your point, that will do business as mission. It's the same generation that will have online digital gaming relationships and do a once-in-a-year meetup where they will spend thousands of dollars and dress up like, you know, crazy people to do and to be with their friends for a week when they do it, and then they go back to their digital relationship. And I don't—that feels normal to them, right? I don't know what to make of all of that, but I know that Jesus can work through it. And it's interesting, the interplay of both of those things together.

Well, and I appreciate you guys speaking into that world. Thank you. This has been Neil. Once again, I want to thank you for jumping. It's been a great conversation. I've enjoyed learning from you historically, dialoguing with you now. Like, this is awesome. I'm having like a geek moment here. Like, this has been really good. But hey, we're gonna land the plane. So Neil, thank you once again. I mean, I probably said thank you fifty times, and I really didn't mean that from the heart. Like, this is awesome. Jason, uh, one of the smartest people I know in digital church—if I'm gonna have a conversation with Neil Cole, bring the guy that can help the conversation. And you were awesome with this. But hey, we're gonna wrap up. And so, uh, Neil, uh, Jason, thank you very much. But for Neil, for Jason, this is Jeff with the Church Digital, Digital Church Network, Leadership Network, and so much other fun stuff. Thanks for jumping on the podcast here. Uh, we'll see you again on the show. You all have a good day.