EP274 - Dave Ferguson, BLESS, Digital Missionaries & Next Level Ministry

Welcome to the Church Digital Podcast. Through this podcast we'll talk about the technological innovations within the church, but more than tech itself, we'll address deeper questions. Is disciple making possible digitally? How should we approach the digital mission field? Can a biblically grounded church operate in digital space? And where does the metaverse fit into all this?

Whether you're a big or small church, an established church or a startup church plant, the Church Digital's goal is to help churches like yours learn to be a multiplying church digitally and physically. Our heart is that churches like yours would discover a newfound focus on disciple making that will revolutionize your church.

And now here's your host, Jeff Reed.

All right, hey everybody, it's episode 274 of the Church Digital Podcast. Jeff Reed here, founder of the Church Digital Digital Church Network. And well, let's just say Dave Ferguson signs multiple of my paychecks, and therefore it is my pleasure to have Dave Ferguson on this show today. I have said it publicly many times: in Dave Ferguson we trust. So therefore I'm really gonna love having this podcast conversation with Dave.

We'll get into what we're going to talk about here in a little bit. Before we get there, hey, this season here we're talking about taking your digital and metaverse ministry to the next level. And so to do that, we've really been tying all this together into our learning communities that we're running through Leadership Network.

You see, we've got a Digital Learning Community. We're helping churches that have digital ministry that are maybe broadcasting a church service online and maybe toying with the idea of small groups. We're really helping them take next steps beyond what they're doing, centered around the weekend, looking at hey, what digital community could look like, what maybe even digital planting looks like, starting to better understand what digital community is beyond just digital communication.

Dave Ferguson's literally laughing at me. Incredible.

So hey, look, if you're interested in the Digital Learning Community, it's leadnet.org/DLC. Leadnet.org/DLC. Metaverse? Maybe you're interested in exploring the metaverse, understanding what virtual reality is, what churches are doing, the huge missional opportunity that exists in the virtual reality space, and so how to have conversations, how to share Jesus, how to be the church in virtual reality, wearing that new Apple headset that's going to be coming out in a couple weeks that everybody and their mother is going to pay three thousand dollars for. I'm not kidding. It's gonna revolutionize things.

Listen, if you're interested in the Leadership Network Metaverse Learning Community, that's leadnet.org/MLC. Metaverse Learning Community for that one. We've got incredible co-leaders in this. It's going to be a great learning community.

Oh, and did I mention the metaverse mission trip? Now you have to go back to some past podcasts to understand how we are challenging churches like yours to go on a mission trip into virtual reality and how churches and organizations globally are already doing that alongside you. So some really awesome things: leadnet.org/DLC for Digital Learning Community, MLC for the Metaverse Learning Community. Put the links in the show notes.

Dave, how is that for commercials? Was that like, was it short and succinct? Was it too long? Like, give me some criticism.

That was awesome. Some number 274, huh? Dang, 274.

I don't—I wanted to call this to your attention. You sound like Kerry Newhouse.

No, no, no, no. Kerry Newhouse? Well, Kerry Newhouse has been doing a lot. I know that's exactly the approach. But what's interesting is I had you on this—this is years ago—for the ten thousandth podcast, like your episode was the ten thousandth podcast play that we had had to the Church Digital. And just a week or so ago, but let's be honest, by accident. It's not like you're going, "Hey, ten thousand, we should get Dave Ferguson on to celebrate." No, it was like, "Oh crap, look, we just wasted our ten thousandth episode on Ferguson." That's what happened.

Oh, the humility in the room. This is so great. But we had—we just hit a hundred thousand plays. Just the truth.

Yeah, that's awesome. So listen, that was exciting for us. We've been doing this pre-COVID. We started, I want to say, 2018 or 2019. I'd actually have to go back and look. And it's been a lot of—that's good timing for what you're pushing here. It's been a lot of learnings. It's been a lot of fun. And you have been on three times, I believe. And so we're excited to have you on here for number three. And you know, it's funny. I just got a text, and I'm gonna go ahead and tell you what. Let me give you a little plug, okay? And I'll tell all your audience too. This goes back to one of our initial conversations. I do feel like, for some reason, God's favor is on you, and he's kind of like teed you up for such an important, I think, mission. And part of the mission during this season of the life of the church. So I think it's pretty cool to get to be Jeff Reed.

Yeah, I—if every once in a while God gives little sneak peeks, I don't think I've got the full vision in sight, but just little glimpses of what he's working on. And to be honest, I'm struggling to keep up. So like, it's gonna be really exciting. I think the next couple months, as some of these opportunities and some of these God things start to actually come to fruition, some of the conversations now, you know, here in the US and even globally, like it's literally—I had a conversation, yeah, I don't even think that I've updated the New Thing team on this—yesterday about a conversation yesterday that I just about fell out of my seat when it was done.

Let's hear it.

Oh no, no, I can't say it. Give me a little hint. Come on. I'm not—no, no, no, no. You can't do that to me. I mean, like, futurist is like one of my top strength finders, and it's like you're teasing me. So give us give us a little bit of something.

Okay, so let's—why did the adrenaline rush from yesterday's conversation?

I had a—not even a Christian tech company yesterday. I had a full-on tech company offer me a full-time job.

What was so compelling that they're going like, "Hey, we need Jeffrey. We gotta pay in bucks. We gotta pay a full salary." What was—what was the—a tech company is trying to launch 1,800 to 5,500 churches in virtual reality in the next twelve months. Not a Christian tech company. A tech company that's developing a virtual reality platform wants to see church engagement to the point where they're asking for 1,800 to 5,500 churches to get launched on their platform. And I'm guessing for them, they just said, "This is an untapped market. There's huge opportunities to use the religious in that space to drive engagement into their platform." There's, you know, there's a monetary subscription to use the platform. I mean, this has not been a factor from top to bottom, but incredible opportunities there. And so that's—I mean, that's just that's just one really small. And I'm like, okay, I'm not taking a full-time job. Like, we got—we gotta figure this out. I got a nonprofit. Let's run it through that. Let's create a partnership. Like, we're kind of talking through some of this now.

But this is—and they're looking for opportunities to engage into, to get better connected into the Christian space and to get connected to churches and Christian tech companies for integrations. And so yeah, like there's just this—yeah, let's keep talking. And that's—that's one of—Dave, I'll just be honest with you. And when I'm doing this recording right now, I'm having nine conversations like that in the next two weeks of just nine different either Christian organizations, Christian tech companies, corporations, non-Christian corporations that are interested. Like, there's this wave of—that's what I'm saying. This is glimpses of God because I mean, listen, I love that you respect me and said what you just said. I am a freaking AVL guy who just happened to stumble in front of a camera during COVID, and all of a sudden everybody's like, "Oh, Jeff." And so humbly, you know, I'm gonna do the humble brag here. Except this time, how cool is that? How cool?

No, but it is. How cool is it that God—I mean, you know, and like you love this stuff, this stuff as much as anybody—how cool is it that God goes like, "You know what, just for grins, I'm gonna let Jeff be kind of one of the leading boys, if not the leading voice in the world on this stuff?" And that's pretty awesome. It's a lot of fun. And just to see, honestly, just to see God move through it. Because this thing has blown away before today, but where I sit in this chair right now, never in my wildest dreams did I imagine I would be in this chair having this conversation, doing 275 podcasts, talking with Dave Ferguson, after writing a book based on Dave Ferguson's stuff, championing this idea, talking to all these corporate—oh man. And to be honest, several of these corporations I'm talking with, the reason I'm talking with them is because I wrote this book with Dr. John Harris based on Dave Ferguson's—

Oh, that's awesome. Like, that's where we're gonna go next, right? That's where I go next because that's what you said you want to talk about. But I do think we should have a conversation because my hunch is you're really good at the sales part of this, attracting people's attention, correcting interest, maybe new thing we ought to figure out a way how we can help. Because if you've got nine of these in the pipeline, I mean, who's the person who can come alongside you and actually, you know, the same way you kind of already told me you get someone else finally now to do your finances because it's like you suck at it—who can we get to actually operate, you know, like you're kind of the visionary? Where do we find an integrator who can actually make these things hum?

Yeah, um, it's so funny you said the word integrator. We're actually—I know that's getting—that's exactly that's the approach that we're using. We've read—this is so good. I mean, it's this has nothing to do with the podcast we want to have, ladies and gentlemen, but this is meeting meaningful to you. Um, the book—I know this is a coaching session, right? Like, traction. Here we go. Yeah, we read that a year ago. And so we were DC and we were toying with that idea. We couldn't find—we honestly couldn't find the integrator. And so we really did not have the opportunity to explore it because we just didn't have the right person at the right time to implement that system.

And Dave, I don't think I told you this story. Um, so the—there was a guy that reached out to me right after Exponential Orlando. Now this is funny. We're at Exponential Orlando, and you know, we had a bunch of gamer guys that were kind of hanging out with the Digital Church Network. And so we did a podcast with him. You go back and listen to it. It's in season four or something. But we, one night during Exponential, I think it was the Wednesday night, we got all the gamer guys together at a guy who lives in Orlando. His name's Bernie's house. Bernie Mapily. We got it together at Bernie's house, and we invited over—he gets us—Glue came over to meet with these gamer guys to talk about how we can get Glue into gamer culture.

So after Expo, I get a call from Bernie. I really don't know Bernie at all. Um, Bernie says to me, he says, "Jeff, uh, he says you're like you and I—"

are like the same person you don't know me but I'm really passionate about a digital Church gamer Church he's really he's an entrepreneur he's created all these business he's trying to do this stuff and he said I don't understand how you got he gets us in my living room at 10 o'clock at night on a Wednesday night for three hours to talk about Gamers like how you have that influence and I told I told him the same thing I'm telling you I'm like hey I don't I don't I don't know how to do this like this I can't I can't brag about this it's just a God thing you're unconsciously you're unconsciously competent but this this is what's funny Bernie says to me instead of me instead of Bernie trying to do what he's doing because he's been struggling to really make the impact at the church level business level he's incredible Church level he's like it's it's not it's not happening so so Bernie says to me I'm bragging about Bernie here hey you know what I'm I'm gonna I'm gonna Jeff I want to work for you for free I essentially he's like I want to be your integrator for your business for the for the business side for the ministry side of what you're doing and so Bernie came on uh we we onboarded digital Church Network we went from four leaders to 15 leaders like overnight over the span of like four weeks just building these infrastructures these systems recruiting these leaders and it's so exciting now to see people like understanding the vision of this thing and it's like I don't I Jeff don't have to tell them what to do they are challenging I had one of my guys what am I one of my uh four r's what am i r directors my relationship guy he challenged me down he shot an idea that I had down and the funny thing was he used my exact words to do it like when he was done telling me no and I heard what he said I was like I told you to say that like I told you that I taught you that he's like yes I actually listened to you and you're right so do what you say and so it was it was really funny I I do I I love the season I love um I love where Ministry is taking and uh the friends at new thing have been incredible and will continue to be incredible I'm sure as our relationships uh grow through it so hey you know what we are like 20 minutes into this podcast or 15 minutes into this podcast and we actually really want to talk about the topic at hand uh and so Dave you know I have a I have a question though you do this every time I have you on the show I want to acknowledge this I bring you on for a topic and you're like no no no forget the topic we're just gonna go off no my my question is you know you wrote this great book but where's Dr John Harris he's supposed to be here yeah so Dr John Harris literally just entered the room right now Dr John you want to say hey there he is look at that hey guys I am not sure what happened there Dr John uh with us we've been Phillip we've been filling time waiting for the expert to get here oh well then I'll wait with you oh good time so uh yeah this podcast is supposed to be three and Dr John um is is jumping on he got caught up in some other things but we're excited to to have him on uh John we've been uh uh uh randomly talking you you'll have to go back to the listen to this podcast actually understand what we've been talking about in the scope we've been kind of all over the map just um maybe intentionally stalling for you to have this conference first to have this conversation together centered around um blessed practices how to bless the church sharing Jesus online digital and and really you know John we we launched a book back in uh uh January yeah January January January four months ago and uh you know it's gotten a lot of attention online we've seen we've seen a lot of success with it a lot of exposure with other organizations a lot of questions now being asked about digital missionaries in in places that I know it wasn't talked about before and so um you know I wanted to bring us together the three of us because you know uh Dr John we didn't we didn't have Dave when we did developed a marketing plan for the book it never occurred to either of us to like have a conversation with Dave Ferguson I just probably probably should have had a conversation with Dave Ferguson and say hey why don't you do a podcast with us like when the book launches no that didn't make sense so we'll do it after the fact and and enjoy the the greatness of that so uh so hey both of you thanks for jumping on on this podcast and and joining in so Dave uh I'd love to just you know dig in with you a little bit we're gonna spitball back and forth between the two you guys but uh sure where did the where'd the concept of of bless maybe even a summarization a little bit of Bless but where'd this concept come from uh I think in some ways it goes way back kind of came from some of my own frustration with trying to share uh the good news share the love of God and Jesus with the people that I love my neighbors uh whether it's the neighbors right next door where you live you know where you work where you play I literally like I remember when I like as a as a as a young leader actually even as he even as when we were first planting the church or no before that I'd say I I was one of those guys who was super on fire and I mean I would do like I would do like Street evangelism I would do um things that um uh where I'm going door to door uh basically I was just harassing people and answering questions uh that they weren't asking and was being you know just obnoxious and um and I found you know I found out that that didn't work and so I kind of swung the other way and I said you know what here's what I'm going to do I'm just going to live my life like Jesus and see if you know that makes an impact and so didn't use any words and kind of just uh tried to do the right thing and my neighbors thought I was a good guy my neighbors I think liked being my neighbor they liked having me as a neighbor but it also didn't result in me getting to share uh Jesus with them and so it was really a result of that frustration and by that point I'd already planted a church and I was going okay there's got to be a better way both for me and for the people in my church and there were there were a couple different things that happened along the way that really kind of pointed us towards these blessed practices but essentially at the very beginning it came out of my own frustration of like you know trying to kind of shoot people with my gospel gun or just passively do nothing and neither one of those worked uh and so blessed practices uh begin with prayer uh listen uh now the in the physical book there the book that that uh Dave and his brother John wrote uh it's um eat together the physical expression of eating to build a relationship and it's then serve and then it's share and then it's share Jesus share your Jesus story that's that's the acronym of bless and and and Dave your book published on this I know I think you were doing it before the book published but the book published in what 21 20 20 20.

yeah 21 yeah we now we probably I mean and we went through a couple different iterations that didn't work um around that um but then we we probably we've probably been doing this at community and then other places for uh eight years before we ever published the book so it's it's not like something that was kind of like a theory and going like hey let's get let's just write it up and see if it works then we began to see it work and really in real people's lives and uh so we we probably did it eight years before we published the book in 2021.

all right so I I gotta ask this because I had no idea there were iterations yeah what was the biggest screw up what was the biggest oh crap that's not gonna work um what was the biggest lesson in the iterations oh we had I mean they weren't really that interesting but we did like I remember before that we were we we brought our whole staff team together including the spouses because we wanted to kind of start with them we felt like we're gonna change the culture start with them and we had like two or three questions we wanted you to ask every week and they were interesting but they they did they weren't as sticky um as this and it was pretty quickly when we kind of started using the Blessed stuff the Blessed practices and then we started with the staff that we began to unfolded to other key leaders and influenced our church and then eventually this has got we even talk about how to change the culture uh eventually then the whole church um it really got traction and so but yeah there were a couple of them that were nope that's not going to work let's start over again yeah and then that leads us up to you know arguably one of the greatest moments of my 45 year old life uh when uh 2022 Dave Ferguson walks up to me and says hey Jeff you know what you should write a book uh and um we had the opportunity uh to write uh uh sharing Jesus online uh which is a it was a book that was based off of blessed practices based off of Dave's framework uh Dave and John's framework and and ported over and I at the time did not think I had the capacity to write the book on my own I was in the middle of writing another book uh on virtual reality churches and I was like hey you know we should do we should totally bring in a co-author into the situation and that's where Dr John Harris who is having internet issues uh came into the conversation I'm like now that's all right now that is ironic this is the biggest trademark of a part of a podcast I'm literally I'm watching Sean like come on the screen and come off and come on and come off and and uh and so the question what I was about to ask is Dr John talk about the book and so let me here I got I got to bring him back in hopefully we're gonna get him in the next five seconds if not I'm gonna answer John's question for him John Dr John Harris lead pastor of Hearts like his a uh a Facebook primarily Facebook Church uh that's online currently A discipleship movement maybe some would call it that but hey John talk to us a little bit um you know about the book maybe the process for you for for writing it some of the experiences um what how we ported bless into how we adopted bless into digital uh space like what was what was that process like for you yeah I I think when uh I I had seen uh Dave and John's book a few years ago and even when I saw it then I thought like this is this is the kind of thing that um that Christians are looking for a a practical how to like what do I do I don't need to hear more sermons about why it's necessary or to to share Jesus I know that we should do that no one's telling me how and so when I saw that book I thought it's very simple practical and memorable all of that and so um so that was just kind of like in the in the background mind uh for a while as I thought you know that's a great in-person kind of kind of deal and there are some elements of that that even in my own neighborhood because I moved uh my family moved here in 2019 that I was implementing here just just locally uh like for me um I used to be the guy that's like I live across the street from you and if we see each other check in the mail I'll wave and that's pretty much it you know um and so when I moved here there are principles about bless I had in mind that helped me to go let me start connecting let me start being more intentional with with conversations Beyond hey how are you uh so like now I know all my neighbors names I know their kids names I know their school what they go to with one of them is a babysitter across the street really cool relationships and so when we started

Hearts like his in January of 2021, uh, being online, and it first start off with us trying to target those who have left the church and things like that, really not shooting for, um, the unsaved necessarily, but trying to, um, uh, trying to turn around the trend of the rise of the dones.

And trying to be a part of the return of the dones. So you have these two groups of people that are really looking to be empowered: those who left the church but still love Jesus, and those who are still regularly attending the church. And so during COVID, it was a cool opportunity because everyone was all online, right? Like everyone has lived at the church, so to speak. So in the midst of this pandemic, how can we equip people to take advantage of the evangelistic opportunities that are also online? It's not just Christians, but everyone else is looking. So we were looking at this book, and just the idea to, um, to put a tool like this in Christian's hands so they can do evangelism online. Um, I just was like yes, and thank you for the opportunity to be a part of doing that. So, um, so yeah, so that was kind of my rationale. And then you couple that with all of the, um, uh, the research, the reports, the statistics about what people are doing online, looking for answers online, and all those kind of things with the rise of digital evangelism on all these different platforms that we're able to kind of bring together and share in the earlier parts, even throughout the book. Like, this is a game changer. And so we can answer that question: what should you do, especially when you're spending a lot of time online and you're seeing comments come across your feed? You're seeing people reach out for help, but you're not a pastor. You're seeing people ask questions, but you might not know the answer. So letting all these opportunities every day pass you by. And so I was like, man, if we can partner together and create something to answer that same question—what can you do online?—that'll be huge. That'll be huge.

Totally. Yeah. And so the book is available for download for free. Thank you to Exponential. But it's at sharingjesusonline.com. And so that is a PDF that you can download. It's a book you can buy through, uh, Amazon. I'm happy to say my mom was the first to buy the book. Um, my mom was, uh, not the only person to buy the book. Like, we've had some moderate success in downloads. You know, last I checked, it was well over a thousand downloads on that. So I was kind of excited. Thousand people are walking around with the resource, right? It's a big step in the right direction. So definitely excited about where we're going with some of this. And so you can check out the book, Sharing Jesus Online, for that.

Now, um, Dave, and if you listen to the first fifteen, twenty minutes of the podcast, you know you've always been a huge supporter of me. Thank you. Of digital and of recognizing, you know, a lot of people don't recognize the relational context of digital, but you've always been a proponent of that in supporting that, or at least in my content context to view. Where I'm curious: so where did this come from? What? Why are you such a fan of digital? You don't often find a lot of lead pastors in your position taking the stance that you are. What makes you the unicorn here?

Uh, hello. I don't know. Um, I think maybe in some ways I'm, I mean, yeah, I am a lead pastor, but I probably think more like an entrepreneur. And I've been on StrengthsFinder. I'm high on the futuristic, and it just seems obvious to me. It's just obvious to me that, um, for the church to move forward—I mean, and I'm, this is what I've been telling people both through New Thing and Exponential—it's, I mean, yeah, they're still going to continue to be macro expressions. And I think there's a whole bunch, uh, you know, like our friend Rob Wegner and other people, there's gonna be a whole bunch of micro expressions. But the other part that we got to take into consideration is also meta expressions. And so we're gonna have all three of us, and I think we need to think in terms of multiple expressions of church to reach all the people. And I mean, it's the worldwide web, for Pete's sake, okay? So it just, to me, it seems obvious. Uh, you know, I mean, people are, I mean, people are building deep enough connections that they're meeting each other and getting married. Most folks now, that's how they meet people, and that's how they start dating online. So I mean, it's like, yes, you can build relationships online, and yes, you can build disciples online. So I do think as church leaders, um, we either need to both get on board. And if we're not doing it ourselves the same way, you may not champion like a church plant to a certain context because you're going like, well, I don't, I really don't know anything about rural. I don't really feel comfortable in the city. I'm more of a suburban guy. Well, great, that's fine. But at least give your people permission and encourage them to do it and go there. And I think that same thing's true with the meta. So, you know, a lot of, I mean, obviously there's a lot of pastors that don't have the vision that you have in this space. One of the things that I love about Community Christian is you've run, and I would love, what is actually the term? You know, Stadia used to call it multimodal, where you have multiple models of church that were operating. Uh, you know, and so what does Community call that? Like, because you've got the physical church, you're doing some things online, you're doing, uh, micro church models, prison, like, what's the term for the multiple streams kind of with that?

Yeah, we actually talked about, like, before COVID, we would say we're one church with multiple locations. Now you would hear us consistently say we're one church with multiple expressions. And so those, yeah, expressions, those four right now are exactly you said. I mean, there's the digital expression, there's also the physical expression, which is in our locations. There's also in prison facilities through Community Freedom, and then also our micro expressions. And that's been really taken off, you know? So after, I'm calling us in a post-COVID society, hopefully that's understood, uh, but you know, in this season, a lot of churches are focusing on what worked in the past. Uh, they want to simplify down to one expression. Um, but you're seeing, I'm hoping, and I'd love to hear about what success you're seeing multiple, uh, and starting to have multiple expressions like you're doing now. What would you tell a pastor like, how would you coach a pastor who's trying to go back and simplify towards only one expression?

Well, I mean, I think you're leaving, I think you're missing a lot of opportunity. A lot of opportunity in the languages of Community Christian Church to help people find their way back to God. Um, I mean, like, for, I think every new person that showed up at a physical location of Community Christian Church, I mean, a hundred percent have first experienced us digitally. They come and check out our website. They watch us online. And so at the very least, I mean, it's, if you think in terms of just marketing, it's top of the funnel for reaching people. At the very least. Now, having said that though, we have some, and I tell people this: I mean, for some people, like Community Online, community.tv, I mean, for some of them it actually is their home. And for those people who that's your home, we tell them we want you to have three connections. It's not good enough just to sit there and watch the video, okay, every week and worship with that. No, we also want you, so that's your connection with God. We also want you to be connected in a small group, and that could be digital, but we also want you serving. And you guys are describing some of the ways you can serve online. See, we want you to be involved in all three, all three expressions, if you're going to be a disciple. But we do think that can happen that way. Um, but the other thing that's pretty, that's also, and it's a little off topic a little bit, but what we've done with the micro expressions, which does integrate really with the digital, is really exciting. I mean, right now, I think in the last nineteen or twenty months, we've been able to start thirty-one micro churches. Some of them are local, like in Chicago. Some are local in Chicago. Some are across the country, but others are in places like India and Uganda because those folks participate in our community online. We advertise our microchurch training, and they say, hey, can we be a part of it? And we say absolutely. And so they get the training, and then they also say, hey, we would like to start a community micro church. And that, what we do is we give them ongoing coaching after that. And I'm telling our staff too, because I think last count there's about nine hundred folks weekly that are part of our micro expressions, micro churches. And what I'm telling them, I'm going like, listen, this, I'm telling our staff that this would, this is like our third largest physical location. And there's a good chance, well, seriously, you got nine hundred folks, right? And I said, and you know, a year from now or two years from now, it'll probably be our largest expression. So don't keep putting it off to the side like, oh, that's a cute thing we do. And by the way, I mean, how much money does it cost us? I mean, we got one staff person who's also a location pastor who Rodrigo Cano, who's brilliant at this, who does the training and a lot of the coaching. And then we've given, I mean, I think maybe, I don't know, I think maybe you spent twenty thousand dollars. And compare that to like what it costs you typically to launch a location or a church with a macro, you know? I mean, you're spending a half a million dollars and all that kind of stuff. So I'm, yeah, so but it's kind of cool because it is micro churches, but we're actually doing the training, you know, digitally, and that's, and it's using that platform that's making it happen, which is pretty cool.

John, as you're hearing this, you know, I know obviously digital plays a big part with what you're doing. Um, what, uh, what advice, what counsel, what coaching would you offer to a pastor who is struggling with digital and really embracing that?

I think I would begin with asking some questions. Uh, like, what is it? I mean, typically when a leader, whether in the church or outside the church, is really struggling with some kind of new idea or innovation or, you know, opportunity, there's a fear there. So I think helping an individual identify like, what are you most concerned about? What are you afraid could go wrong? What are you afraid of losing? Uh, what are you, you know, and they kind of explore that. And once we get there, then look at how these opportunities, uh, I mean, to kind of reframe what these opportunities look like. And so, um, if we actually put the mission first and we think about opportunities for in-person church multiplication and microchurch multiplication, and then, uh, and the potential for lives being changed that way, and then talk about the opportunity for that to be exponentially—pun intended—multiplied online, I mean, think about once people wrap their minds around digital micro churches. I mean, you can just imagine how what can happen online with digital micro churches once people, especially in the pews, you know, so to speak, understand that one is biblically valid and legitimate. Like, this is kingdom work. And then number two, they can do it. Number three, it doesn't look like Sunday morning. It can be four or five people. It can be all around the world at any time. I mean, just.

The opportunities for digital evangelism and discipleship are massive if we actually put mission first. And so when talking to pastors who might stumble over a little pieces of it, I want to know what part of it are you stumbling over and how does your ecclesiology need to shift and how does your missiology need to shift? I mean, that's where the conversation really is. And once people go, "Okay, you know, go and make disciples of all the world," okay, it's really easy to have a conversation about the opportunities online once we deal with whatever hurdles or obstacles that are mentally, maybe even theologically, with doing it online.

I'll tell you what, I want to jump in there. I think you made a good point, John. I think one of the things that does get in the way of a lot of pastors is their ecclesiology. And you know, so that's kind of a ten-dollar word for what you think makes up a church. And I think one of the maybe one of the things that's made it simple for us at Community is we would define church this way: a community of people on mission together where Jesus is King. If you've got those three parts—a community of people on mission together, like you said, mission first, we're Jesus King, okay, now he's Lord, so he gets to decide what happens here—if you got those three parts, you got a church. And so that's why for me it's a real, it's not a long leap to go like, yeah, you could do this on Facebook. You know, you could do this online, you could do this on Discord or whatever platform you decide to use.

And to add to that, I think the idea there is typically when a pastor is stumbling over a digital church, they have a more complex view of what the church is. Once you simplify, then it's really easy to see the opportunities to have that expression online. Number one. And then number two, we begin to share life change stories about what's happening online. Then that also is another way to help pastors think mission first and go, "Man, okay, if a person's life is being changed, like God did something there. There's a clear moving from A to B. I was blind and now I see, and I'm connected to a community that's helped me grow in faith. Like, what pastor argues with that and goes, 'Ah, I don't see God in it'?"

So I think simplifying the ecclesiology, I think sharing life change stories of salvation, of discipleship, of people being free from stuff—those are the two main things I would do once we talk about what is that, what is your fear? So those are things I would say to him, and I've seen it happen. I've seen a pastorship. I was talking to a group of pastors and church consultants on one occasion, and as I was sharing what was really going on, they also began to see the opportunities here for what God's doing online.

You know, I've heard Ed Love—Dave, what denomination is Ed Love with? I'm just blanking right now. Do you know? Stop your head. Of course I'd call you on it. You don't? I'm sorry. No, that's all right. But I've heard him talk. I did a podcast with him. Guess what? You have Google. I have the internet. Yeah, I figured out while I'm talking. But Ed, you know, Ed used the term—it's funny—it's not minimal ecclesiology because minimal indicates you're getting rid of it. I should know that because they're like one of the biggest groups that comes to Expedition. God love the Wesleyan people. Thank you. Thank you. Ed Love. But he uses the term essential ecclesiology. You know, it's boiling it down to what's essential as opposed to, you know, hiding and minimalizing, you know, it's sweeping away. You know, we're doing a podcast season here. We're talking about next level, moving beyond the weekend service. And just this conversation is ironic to me because three of the six episodes—I didn't plan it—but three of the six episodes have churches that are really strong in digital microchurch that are using digital for a microchurch strategy.

We've had Tyler Sansom on earlier, and First Capital Christian Church—anywhere they've got a small church of like 800, I say small, medium-sized church of 800 people, has like 25 micro locations in addition to all sorts of other crazy stuff Tyler's doing. Jay Crand is on next week, and you know, and I know Jay through Saddleback. He's moving towards a decentralized model as well in addition to what they're doing in the physical space. And so there's a lot of opportunities for churches to think differently about how digital is and to move beyond just doing that streaming service, which is really the heart of what we're trying to do with the learning communities, the Leadership Network. Which is why we were at, like, Tyler, hey Tyler, come in and co-lead this with us and try to help us get going with this, to help churches understand how to move beyond just broadcasting that service and doing something more tangible, more missional, more evangelistic with the digital tool.

As a matter of fact, the Sharing Jesus Online book—you know, I've talked about this. Actually, it was written up in a positive light and a negative light by Relevant Magazine. But we are doing some submission trips into the metaverse. We're helping churches go and take their people on a mission trip. We did a podcast on this earlier this year as well. But looking at, you know, instead of buying a plane ticket to go to, I don't know, Belize to go on a mission trip to Belize, you know, instead of missing that week's worth of work and spending the hotel and getting your visa and passport and all that, we're challenging people to go buy an Oculus 2 for 350 and literally the training is the book Sharing Jesus Online, which you can download for free, and learn how to do the best practices in virtual reality where we're literally challenging people to get a headset, go into the metaverse, and learn how to share Jesus relationally with—by the way, people in virtual reality are far more interested in having a conversation than people in physical space.

You go up to somebody at Starbucks and start a random conversation, you're—this is a possibility, especially here in Miami—there's a decent chance I'm going to get an F-bomb. Virtual reality, you're not going to get F-bombs. Like, it just doesn't work that way. They want to talk. Some of these worlds, like, there's literally a world that's called VR Chat, and it's not called chat because of anything else other than the fact that people want to talk in that world. And so there's opportunities to start to dialogue in new ways through it.

And so check out the Learning Community at leadnet.org DLC—Digital Learning Community—leadnet.org MLC for the Metaverse Learning Community, and more information is there on that.

Well, guys, we have packed a lot in here into this podcast. Dr. John, your tech held up. We're very excited about that. Thanks for coming in, man. It was kind of crazy, but I'm glad to be able to participate a little bit. So appreciate the opportunity to hang out with you guys.

Very cool. And Dave, it's always a pleasure. So maybe as we're landing the plane here, a brief moment, Dr. John, any closing thoughts on your side?

I would just encourage pastors to—and hopefully this discussion has helped them kind of think outside of any box that they have been in. I think to some degree all of us are in some kind of box. It just gets bigger. And we in the Holy Spirit is just wanting to put mission first, mission first, mission first. And so to see opportunities online as well, to not just be a threat to in-person but a supplement and additional extension of the ministry. And in-person can launch into digital, and digital can actually create some in-person relationships. We had one house church start from harsh like his, and the house church planted another house church, all from starting digital. I mean, that person is in Colorado, I'm in California. And so there's just so many things that God's doing, and doing it online is an opportunity to be a part of what he's doing globally in the most least expensive way possible.

Very cool. So we've had four people on that are doing microchurch. I didn't realize you had grown to a microchurch level yourself. That's cool.

Dave, as we're landing the plane here, any closing thoughts on your side?

Yeah, my closing thought is I see why you recruited Dr. John to co-author this book with you. No kidding. Nice. Nicely done. Very, very cool. The secret was that I probably wrote the first draft of the book. I probably wrote 60 percent of the book, and Dr. John wrote 40 percent of the book. And by the time that the final version was written, Dr. John had probably written about 70 percent of the book and I'd probably written about 30 percent. So he, at some point, he flipped the switch and it was like, boom, all Dr. John, all over the place. And let's just, I'll publicly say it like it is, so much better than what I was drafting on my side. So it really came out well.

So you can check out the book at sharingjesusonline.com. You know, obviously Dave with Exponential, with Leadership Network, with Community, with new things, so many different hats and opportunities there. And it's a pleasure to work inside that ecosystem that is so supportive of digital church, digital discipleship, digital ministry. And seeing Dave and family and friends over there in those worlds really champion and get behind some of the work that's happening here. It's been a blessing. And so I consider it a joy to know both of these guys, Dr. John and Dave, have been influential for me in the past couple years, and I'm looking forward to much more to come.

Check out the learning communities. Check out the book. And thanks, y'all, for joining on the podcast. So for Dr. John, for Dave, this is Jeff with the Church Digital, Digital Church Network. Thanks for jumping on the pod here. See you next time on the show. You all have a good day.