EP280 - Trauma, Crisis, and Digital Ministry

Welcome to the Church Digital Podcast. Through this podcast we'll talk about the technological innovations within the church, but more than tech for tech's sake, we'll address deeper questions. Is discipleship making possible digitally? How should we approach the digital mission field? Can a biblically grounded church operate in digital space? And where does the metaverse and artificial intelligence fit into all of this?

Whether you're a big or small church, an established church or a startup church plant, the Church Digital's goal is to help churches like yours learn to be a multiplying church digitally and physically. Our heart is that churches like yours would discover a newfound focus on discipleship making that will revolutionize your church.

And now here's your host, Jeff Reed.

All right, we got episode 280 of the Church Digital Podcast. Jeff Reed here, and I am looking forward to sharing this conversation with you. Over the past six months, I had a break, a sabbatical rest. I went on an extended vacation dealing with my own mental crash, and as a result of that and some of the extenuating circumstances around it, the idea of mental health has become very important to me as an individual. And let's just be honest, as digital pastors, as people doing digital ministry and digital virtual spaces, we run into a lot of situations. Especially if we're relational, especially if we're conversational, especially if we listen to people, we run into a lot of situations of people that are dealing with high issues with trauma, high issues with crisis. We deal with a lot of mental health issues. And rather than running from the situations, rather than hiding from the situations, rather than ignoring those situations, I think we, the church, we need to understand how to respond, how to help, how to do what God is calling us to do in those situations. And sticking our head in the sand, well, pre-COVID that may have been the answer or a viable option, but 2024, I just don't think we can get away with it anymore.

So here's what we're doing. We do what we do here with the Church Digital Podcast. We have a conversation about it. We bring in some experts. We're bringing some people who have wisdom in that space, and we learn from them. We gain insight from their experience in physical and digital ministry, and we learn how to apply it to what we are doing at our different physical, digital, hybrid, virtual churches around the world.

So here's who we're bringing into the conversation. We're bringing in Megan Carter. Now, Megan is no stranger here to the podcast. She's been on quite a bit, and she is doing a ton of incredible work at her church, First Capital Christian Church, Church Anywhere. Tyler Sansom is the lead pastor over there. Many of you know Tyler. Megan is Next Steps Pastor, which deals with assimilation and next steps, and that's nice, but a lot of what we're bringing Megan in for is her wealth of information on dealing with trauma. Megan has been getting certified by the American Association of Christian Counselors, the AACC. Light University—we'll put some information in the show notes about that. You can dig into that. But Megan is becoming very well versed when it comes to handling trauma and mental health issues that are popping up in digital ministry, but also bringing into the conversation, in addition to Megan, we are bringing in Stacy Napp. Stacy is a chaplain, and she does a lot of work digitally connecting with people that are going through crisis.

Now, the first question you're asking is, what's the difference between crisis and trauma? That's a great question, one that I didn't know the answer to until we did this conversation. This podcast. So here's what we're doing. We're having that conversation: trauma, crisis, and digital ministry.

I'm Megan Carter. I work at First Capital Christian Church, Church Anywhere. It's kind of all our online pieces. I am the Next Steps Pastor here, which doesn't tell you a lot about what I do, but I do anything that involves whatever people's next steps are. I've had about five different roles at the church, and this one has been the sweet spot. It's been really exciting because I get to work digitally and in person, which is so much fun to be able to do both and work in ministry in different areas. They are similar in some spaces and different in other ways. And then also, I am a board certified mental health coach through the AACC, and that's been a really cool process to work through. And then I'm working on my biblical counseling program this year, so that's an exciting thing of just being able to help and care for people with a little bit more knowledge behind that too. So that's a big piece about me. I'm a mom of two kids and I'm a wife.

I didn't realize you were working on your biblical counseling program.

I am, yeah. I'm excited about it. Ninety hours, I think I've got three of them done.

A few more to go. Do you have like a timer countdown or something like that?

Gosh, pretty much, yeah.

Oh, that's brutal. You're going to do ninety hours in one year?

Yeah, well, it's like ninety technical hours, so like each class is an hour long, test afterwards, and then you can move on.

Yeah, oh, just simple. Just like that. Fine. Simple. Good for you.

Okay, and there's a lot to talk about AACC. We're going to get into it, but Stacy, why don't you tell us a little bit about yourself?

Yeah, I'm out of Phoenix, Arizona currently, and I serve as a chaplain in local employer workspaces, but also a lot of my work is grief companionship in the digital space, whether it's Facebook Messenger, text messages, different types through Zoom video chats, and also as pastoral staff for Imagine Church, which is pretty much a strictly digital church started in 2017. When they started, their heart was to serve people that for whatever reason in life they're not able to actually attend church in person on the weekends. And I have a soapbox about that, why we have to exist. And so we just are open to anyone and everyone: physical challenges, mental challenges, social challenges, or caregivers, or people who just work on the weekends. So I really value that. And my heart is to be a chaplain and mainly to be present with people in their pain and loss, whatever that is: loss of a loved one, loss of friendship, loss of a pet, transitions. There's losses in good things too. There's gains and losses. And so I just come alongside them. I don't diagnose, and I don't come up with a treatment plan for people, but I just come alongside, and together with the person we form a care plan for them in their grief.

Thanks so much, Jeff, for inviting me to this conversation.

Yes, this is going to be—I keep saying the word interesting. It's going to be an interesting conversation. Right up here at the top, I said this in the introduction: like, I don't know a lot about mental health. And already in this conversation, we're using words like trauma, we're using words like crisis, we're using words like counseling, we're using chaplaincy. Like, there's some interesting words that really, you know, for someone that's in ministry, we don't often talk about this on the church side of the equation. Yet, you know, my experience in digital ministry, there's so much need and so much opportunity with people that have gone through trauma or people that are dealing with crisis. And so I don't know, you know, in 2024, it just seems to me that we need to be more aware of this as ministers and pastors in digital and virtual spaces.

Yes. How big of a deal should mental health be in digital ministry? Go on, Megan. Go, girl. Go on.

I'm very passionate about that. Yeah, it should be huge. It's something we all deal with. We all deal with some form of mental health, whether that's dealing with just grief of daily things that happen in your life or a loss of a loved one, or if it has to deal with bigger things like a traumatic experience, and everything in between. We all deal with something. There's a phrase that I think kind of gets passed around our staff, but it's like, "No one gets a pass." Literally, that's the truth. Like, no one gets a pass in life. There's always something. So it's like mental health's always been there. We just don't always talk about it. We should, because it's a big part of who we are, even as Christ followers. That's a piece of us. We're mentally and physically and spiritually and emotionally and relationally. All those things create a whole person. So it's something we definitely need to talk about.

Yeah, there's tons of examples in scripture throughout of people struggling with their mental health. I mean, on and on, the expression of it—Psalms, I mean, I just even with there's a book called Lamentations. You know, I crack up at how much there's a whole book called Lamentations, and yet it's that value doesn't seem to be reflected in the local church as much as it's reflected in scriptures.

Well, let's do this. Let's go ahead and put some definitions on some of these words. So, you know, let's start with trauma, and then crisis. But so trauma—Megan, why don't you help us here? Like, help us define what exactly trauma is.

Yeah, so I wrote this down so I wouldn't get it wrong because I could give you my definition, but this will be a lot more simple. So trauma is an emotional state of discomfort and stress resulting from memories of an extraordinary catastrophic experience which shattered the survivor's sense of invulnerability to harm. So basically, all that said sounds really pretty, but trauma is just it's our perception. What our perception is is our truth. So whatever that may be, however we experienced a situation, whether it's big or many little things, is how we perceive as truth, even though it may not seem like that to everyone on the outside. So it's very specific to an individual.

So in digital ministry, what does trauma look like? What are some—do you have an example or something that you could share about how someone would deal with trauma?

I mean, that's—I mean, a lot of people deal. I think it's like fifty percent of humans will deal with trauma in some way, shape, or form, which is huge. And that's a variety of things. A lot of different pieces. And it works the same in person as online. With like the way we experience things, everybody again experiences them individually. But you have violence, you have bullying online, abuse, there's physical illnesses or injuries, abandonment issues, death of a loved one, can have like childhood neglect, and then natural and man-made disasters are some of the big ones that people face with.

So trauma is more, I guess, ongoing where it's just the state of mind. It's an environment that you're a part of. And then there's crisis.

Stacy, dig into us a little bit.

Yeah, when it comes to chaplaincy work, we meet people where they are in that moment. So it's a crisis moment, typically a sudden event. And I would say particularly saying with trauma is that it's similar in the fact that it is different for each person. So even though we may have experienced the same event, it may not be a crisis to you, but it's a crisis to me. And so with chaplaincy work, we are somewhat of the first responders in that in a crisis situation, so maybe disaster relief or someone calls to say, "I'm having a hard time." Okay, great. So let's relieve some of the pressure right now by just sharing and talking it through with me. But if it's long-term, then we're...

We're going to send you over to Megan or we'll send it to someone else that we'll come up with and maybe come up with a treatment plan ongoing or to work through that together. Um, like I said, crisis is almost like a surprise event and you have an emotional response, an emotional mental spiritual response to it. And chaplains work in that capacity. Not, I mean, there's chaplains who are also, you know, therapists and counselors, but it really depends on the time it happens and then treatment or care ongoing.

I'm curious, Stacy, with the chaplaincy and your background in that, your work with Imagine Church, do you see um, like, are there parts where that chaplaincy characteristics or lessons that you're learning that it carries over into?

Absolutely, yeah, absolutely. I think there is. Not, I think I've experienced when you know we get to know each other pretty well because we are in Zoom communities in our church, so it's kind of small group feel intimacy. But with the framework of sermons and there's music worship for us to sing. But um, yeah, when there's a crisis response, someone will say they're having a hard time with fill in the blank, whatever it is. And for me, because of my training in chaplaincy work, I have steps in my head. You know, I'm like, okay, let's ask this question. But also I would say in my spiritual support and pastoral care, I kind of marry both of them because I have a relationship with them. Most of the time I have a relationship with the person already, so there's already trust established. And also in chaplaincy, we say we have our list of resources and allies. So I have these tools in our tool belt to say, okay, I'm going to help you in this crisis right now, and here's some other resources, trusted resources that I know and have vetted myself that you might want to reach out to, because we don't have a counselor on staff, we don't have a therapist on staff, but I know people that can help. And um, it's just bumping them up. We say bumping them up to the next level of care. Um, again, that would be a crisis situation, and bumping them up to the next level of care would be perhaps there's trauma underneath all of that that maybe they need to work through and have someone guide them through that.

Megan, what stories do you have of dealing with trauma within the work that you're doing with First Capital in that church?

Yeah, um, I would say, and it kind of ties to what Stacy was just saying too, like typically the person doesn't just come out and be like, I'm dealing with trauma. Like, that's not how it works. You have to get to it. Um, unless they've been diagnosed and then they're probably seeing a professional, like a mental health professional, and then they're probably on a good path of treatment. But they don't typically come out and say it. And I think of one instance where I was talking to a person online, and we were talking about just little issues and things that they were going through. Um, this person was local, and so I was actually able to meet up in person here at the church, which was really cool, um, and then get to talk a little deeper into some things and found out that there was trauma lying underneath that. So we were able to address that, and once we could address it and they started to recognize it, it made that just go so much smoother, like recognizing why they're reacting to certain situations today because of things from their past, memories, things that are continuing to be stirred up. And so that was a way to kind of work through them.

Um, there's been a lot of times that we've had to just, like Stacy was saying, refer people out to other professionals because again, I'm right now a mental health coach, and that's really just guiding people along to figure out where their next step needs to be. And so we will refer them to people who can do a lot more. Um, we have a lady who works out of our church. Um, she has an office space and she is trained in trauma. Um, she deals a lot with first responders. And so I've learned a lot from her through that too. But just being able to recognize how, you know, things that people say, little things that they're like, well, I'm not sleeping well, or different things that are just causing that trauma to really increase. And watching that and then giving them the best treatment and helping them find maybe the best treatment through someone else as well.

And it's interesting, Megan, you are at First Capital Church, which is hybrid, physical and digital. Um, does how you handle, you know, some of these trauma situations, how you minister, how you do ministry, does it differ between physical and digital? Like, how you treat someone or how you address someone that's going through a traumatic situation?

Yeah, it is different in a sense because when you sit across from a person, there is just a different sense of feeling what they're feeling, being able to emotionally connect with them because you're face to face. Um, but we have had people connect and do that through Zoom. Um, it's a lot more difficult just because you only get so much through a computer. But as long as you're really actively listening, which is a key point of listening to what they're saying and even what they're not saying sometimes, um, picking up on those things, and then even like verbally listening, repeating back what they say so that the person on the other end is understanding that you're getting their point of view. Because it's more about the facts that they're laying out and their story than just the overall arching fact of, well, this happened, this happened, this happened, but this happened, which made them feel this way, which caused this thing to happen. And so that's really when you start to get into the weeds of like finding the root of all the issues that they're kind of having at that moment.

It's interesting. I mean, we could maybe drill in on the percentage of loss between physical versus digital and how much of it gets lost or not. Um, another day, not today. But Stacy, do you agree with that? Do you feel like there's a loss between the two? Because I know you guys spend a lot of time on Zoom in Imagine.

I agree, yeah, there is a difference. I mean, we had a recent situation which I actually reached out to Megan to get some advice and you know share. I wanted to know her experience about serving someone. Now, most recently, there was a very much a crisis situation, but that person lived less than ten miles from me. So I gave them the emergency hotline information and then jumped in my car and went to go see her. I am not able to do that for the ninety-five percent of our church that don't live in Phoenix. So um, having it in person though was really helpful. And because we only see this part of someone at church, we don't see the rest of them. It kind of reminds me of, you know, in the news, anchor people, you know, they have this suit jacket and top on, and then they've got like tatted up jeans below. But you know, kind of thing. And I feel like we just don't have all our senses activated when it's online, unlike in person. We could see how the person's walking, we can see how the person is responding to different situations. What, you know, are they scared when someone quickly walks by? You know, those kind of things we do not have a gauge on.

And Megan so eloquently shared with me, she said, remember though, we don't catch everything in person either. And so that was really encouraging to me because I felt like we were losing the ability of being present with people in their crisis because we just didn't know. You know, we can't smell you, we don't know approximately how many days it's been since you've showered, you know, just little things that I feel like we're missing being in digital space only. Even with that, like, you know, we kind of felt like we were kind of being like, well, digital, you can't do as much ministry with mental health. But like, if that's the only option and that's the only way somebody's going to get connected to it, you're going to do so much more. You don't know. You know, sometimes we don't necessarily know their issues or what's going on and what they're struggling with, and they may have social anxiety. So walking into a building or walking into a place, they're not going to do it. But to turn on a computer screen and sit there and not have to be like, well, they don't see me fidgeting, they don't see this and that, but they're able to open up, that's going to mean so much more than just, you know, there's definitely things we can do, but you just have to learn a little different. It's kind of like online, you learn a different culture. You're learning a different way to do that ministry.

Yeah, that's good. That's a good reminder because I honestly think that I don't think she would have shared this type of struggle, this crisis situation, in person unless she really had the intimate setting that we have, um, getting to know one another every week, staying in contact through the week. We have in-app texting in our church app, so we're staying in touch during the week. It's not just Sunday to Sunday, but it's in between. Following up, there's some accountability in there too because if you share that you're struggling with something and you're asking for some care, then we're going to say, oh, there you go, yes, we're going to pray for you. Hey, I'm going to check in. We're going to let's stay connected in the app. We're going to check in. So keep those notifications on or you know, respond because if you don't respond within a few days, we'll be concerned.

What's an example of like a tell? Because we said earlier they don't come out and say, hey, I'm going through a traumatic situation. Often times there are physical tells and triggers that you would see, or online, if it's within the frame. Like, what are some things that help us realize, oh, there's something going on deeper here? There's something beneath the surface that we need to explore?

I would say a big one is like almost numbness, like that emotional flatness, like they don't really show any expression. And that would be harder because I know we do a lot of things with texting too and you can't gauge somebody's emotion through texting. But you can pick up on some things. So if you can tell if somebody is kind of feeling maybe more depressed, um, and that's out of character, or dealing with heightened anxiety. Um, insomnia is a huge one. So if they're texting you at all hours of the day and night, they're probably not sleeping. So it's a good kind of indicator to check on that. Um, and attention deficit, uh, problems is a huge one where they can't just focus on one thing and they start going everywhere else. Those are kind of like maybe the big common ones, but each area, like your emotional, behavioral, and spiritual and relational, will have different ones. Then you could go through a huge list of those different things, which kind of filter into other mental health areas too. So you can kind of look through that list and go through that and think through the person, like what they've been saying, and you can start to see like if there is more trauma there or if there's another issue.

Yeah, I would echo that, but you know, the trends. Like, the trend of someone that comes every single week and then it becomes sporadic. You know, then like, okay, something's going on that this person's not saying or sharing. Um, but I think that there's, but that takes...

Attentiveness, you know, on our part and being aware of that. And you know, or maybe someone's not sharing like they used to share. That's something framed within our sermons are what we call Community Time, and they're discussion questions that have to do with a sermon. So you know, we know the talkative ones, right? And if that person's not talkative, then that's kind of like an alert in your head like, "What's going on with that person? What are, how come they're not talking so much? They're not sharing as much?" So yeah, I think that's probably one of the bigger ones for us within our context.

Okay, so we find someone that's going through a traumatic situation. We figured this out via Zoom, we figured this out via texting or, you know, chat room conversation, something. There's some trigger that's obvious where they're going through a difficult situation. Like, as ministers, as pastors, what are we supposed to do? Like, are we downplaying the trauma? "Oh, it's not a big deal." Are we trying to solve the situation for them? Tell them we're praying for them? Like, what's the goal for us helping someone or ministering to someone that's going through a traumatic situation?

The very first thing I think of, and my professor will be so excited because, is "First, do no harm." That's literally the first thing they teach us: do no harm. So it's shifting the focus from asking them, like, "Well, what's wrong with you?" to "What happened to you?" And that changes how they're going to respond because they're not going to put up a wall, thinking like if there's shame attached to it, even like thinking that it's an identity piece, like, "Well, there's something wrong with me." So, you know, "What is wrong with me?" and then they start going a different path. But asking them "What happened to you?" and walking through that. And then the other piece that I think of a lot is like getting into somebody else's perspective. So thinking with that trauma-informed mindset, even if it doesn't make sense to you, if even it's like little things that happened over time and to you they're like, "Yeah, that's life. That's not a big deal," to them it is a big deal. And so the hurt or the feelings that they have with that are valid. And so taking it from that perspective will really shift how you think about it, which will shift like their trust in you more because they'll really know that you're caring for them and wanting to think, you know, talk about it for them.

Yeah, I definitely would say the, you know, attentive to their experience. We are. When we say "do no harm," that means we're not going to minimize their experience. We're going to listen. And empathetic ear—a lot of that happens, a lot, a lot, a lot of listening, less talking, because sometimes it really is they need to be heard. A person who's in crisis or experienced trauma needs to be heard. And, you know, and as pastors and ministers, we have to know ourselves well. We have to know ourselves well enough to know, "This is going, this needs more help than I can actually give. I can care. I could pray. I could check in. But they're going to need more than my experience and what the letters are behind my name." And that requires humility. That requires humility. You got to know that like, "Whoa, nope, can't fix this." Also, know yourself well in the fact that you do have a tendency to be a fixer. If that's the case, you know, this is not—you got to move it on to the next person because that's not your role.

Yeah, and saying like, "It's okay to not know the answer to something." Like, you don't have to have all the answers. But sometimes, especially as pastors or ministers or people who are helping people, come to you and think that you've got all the answers. And I'm like, "No, I don't. And that's okay." Because it brings so much more realness to them. It's like, "Okay, I don't have the answer, but let's go figure it out together, or let's find somebody who does." And so I think that means so much more. And that again goes back to that humility. Like, you don't have to know all the answers before you're trying to figure out something for somebody.

All right, so I'm a total fixer. And so, yeah, well, those are in this field—we are. I mean, in this work, you know, we are fixers. That's kind of our leaning. So I really encourage my colleagues. They said, "Get, keep yourself in check and in accountability and fellow ministers, even if it's another church or another organization. You have to have check-ins." We always say in chaplaincy, "Where chaplains need chaplains." And so we have to kind of check in. Same with pastors—pastors need pastors too.

Is there a line? Does the line change where it's like, "I'm too much invested. I'm too far into this. I need to hand it off to someone else?" Like, is there—I guess it's really two questions. Is there a line where, "Hey, at this point I really need to introduce you to somebody else to move on?" As pastors, you know, chaplains may have a different answer, but as pastors and ministers, is there a line where is that line? And does that line vary per situation?

Right, no, I think it does vary. And I also, with the training I had, I had to take ethics. So there's certain things I can and cannot do as a mental health coach. And one of them would be like, if I'm too close to the situation, if it's like family, friend, I think just overall you again have to know yourself well enough to know, "Is the situation almost causing you? Like, if you've had trauma, is it retraumatizing you of things that have happened in your life?" Then that's definitely a place like, "If it's going to take you to an unhealthy place, you need to bring someone else in because first and foremost, if you don't take care of yourself, like you can't take care of others."

Yeah, definitely. With chaplaincy, the word that is typically the thing is to have a self-check first. And my mentor says—she says, "Stacy, that's why it's so important to stay close to Jesus and work in allowing the work of the Holy Spirit in your life so that you have that check. And you know when to say yes and when to say, 'Yes, I'm here for you,' and yet this is bringing some things to the surface for me, so you would best be served by someone else who's out of place."

So, for example, you know, say my grandma died yesterday and someone calls me and doesn't know about my grandma dying and they're experiencing loss or something like that. No, then no, I'm not going to take that call. I'm going to just say, "Hey, you know, this is not to get sympathy for me, but my grandma died yesterday. I just want to let you know so that's why I will not be able to serve you well today." And go on to the next person, which also brings to the point: need to have trusted resources and allies at a drop of a hat.

Megan, so Stacy's talking about like a wider bench of resources and people to fall back on. Do you feel like you have that? And this is not a shot at Tyler, but like, are there people you fall back on? And this is not a shot at Tyler, but like, are there people you fall back on? Um, as a pastor and a minister, like, do you have people within your team like who do you fall back on when you have questions like that?

Yeah, um, a big one is the counselor in our building that works out of there. Um, her name is Joanie. And having her to be able to talk to about situations because that's, that's again, like, even as a counselor, mental health coach, or a pastor who's doing counseling, you need to have trusted people around you so that, like, that's one thing I know they recommend for therapists, counselors, is to have a group that they can bounce things off of each other. Um, because there are situations that you may have not went through it with someone before, but it's in front of you, so you got to figure out what to do next. And so to have people who have done that, super beneficial. Um, but yeah, we have a really unique staff too that we are all like, we try to be for each other all the time. So if we are in need or struggling, everyone knows that they can come to another person on staff and we're going to be there for each other. Um, and that's really important because if you don't have that support, you almost feel like you're isolated and you're out there on an island on your own. It's never a good place to be, especially when you're trying to care for a lot of people.

I feel that in this digital space. Um, sometimes there's a lot of us that are that can feel alone because we might be just the point person in our in real-life church that is serving in the digital space. Um, and so that's why it was so important for me to be connected with TCD DCN because of that. Um, we needed that space, or I needed that space, to have just support, even though we're in totally different ministries, churches, anything that is—it's everything was different, but the need is the same for support and care.

Yeah, listening to Megan talk about, you know, like getting that support, um, feeling all alone. I mean, that was that was me a lot of my ministry career working for churches because I mean, when I was when I was digital pastor, there weren't a lot of digital pastors. And um, and so I was viewed as crazy. And so having, having, um, you know, TCD become that support system um for people that are thinking outside of the box and um and trying to train and help others do ministry in these in these difficult spaces, you know, it was was interesting.

I surveyed um probably this is a couple years ago, this about a year—it no, it was during COVID, year and a half ago. Uh, I surveyed maybe a dozen churches, not non-scientific, but you started talking to him about um mental health challenges and um and dealing with like people that are going through trauma. And and it was interesting. Only um, uh, maybe two or three—it was a very small percentage—said that they had any contact, any situation with people uh that were going through traumatic situations. And this was like in the middle of COVID, like COVID was still a thing when we did this. And and I was I was just floored. Um, and and to be honest, the more that I got into it, it was, "Oh, well, you know, our online ministry is is just broadcasting church services online, and we may talk with somebody in chat, but we're not we're not getting, you know, dirty. We're not being relational um with with people."

And and one of the reasons why when I wanted to have this conversation with trauma and in crisis, that's why I wanted to bring in, you know, you two, Stacy, Megan, because I know, I know First Capital Church. Anywhere I know the passion that they have to get to know people and be invested in in their lives. You know, I remember when Tyler was digital pastor, whatever his title was, and he told me, "Jeff, it's my job to know a hundred people." He's not lead pastor of the church, but he has a digital page. "It's my job to know a hundred people uh intimately that I would not know in physical space. That's literally my job description." And uh to see the the relational equity uh Stacy that you guys are putting into into imagine. Um, if you're in somebody's lives at that level, I mean, I got to believe that you're able to see or they're able to have confidence to share uh some of these difficult situations. And um, you know, just to be blunt, like, if you or your church isn't experiencing, you know, a lot of these trauma-type situations, maybe you're not getting dirty enough. I I don't know what the phrase is here. Maybe maybe you're not being open enough and susceptible. What do you think, Stacy?

Right, well, I I think it starts with us as the leaders, right? Yes, there are, uh, you know, what do you call it, boundaries in place of how much you share. But it really is we nurture that kind of environment. Like, if I'm not going to ask for prayer for my family, you know, uh, or situation, like, then then no one else is.

Going to really want to share, you know, we nurture the environment that we—if we're saying that we care about each other and love one another, it starts with us. It starts with the leaders. And if we don't, then how, really, really, what kind of expectation can you have of the people in your church? Um, so it starts with being vulnerable and, um, open, honest. Like I said, there's some boundaries in place, but, um, yeah, I think that's where it starts.

Well, we've talked a lot about—um, that's where it starts with leadership. We've talked a lot about staffs and pastors. Um, how do we equip volunteers? Uh, maybe someone that doesn't have a lot of training, um, oversight, doesn't have the, uh, the certification, is working on biblical counseling. Like, how do we help a normal person maybe start to understand how to recognize and then relate to, uh, people that are going through trauma or, um, or grief or crisis like we're talking about here?

Yeah, a big piece is training them. Um, that seems like a simple answer, but it's not so simple because, yeah, it is such a big, complex thing. Um, there is so many avenues of trauma, and but there's so many people that go through it. And so I think a big piece—if you have someone that either you can kind of lean on that has that training already that you can learn from them, or even there are resources out there that if you can have a training—like I know the AAC does trainings, um, on trauma-informed care. It's a great one just to have. Um, you don't have to do all the big trainings like I'm doing the ninety hours, but doing this smaller, inform, you know, trauma-informed care, or having a few people do it and then bringing back the knowledge they've learned and being able to work with those, especially those that are working on, you know, a like a care team. Um, we have a care team here, and so getting them the training so that they know how to respond, um, so that they're not doing that harm of either saying like, well, what's wrong with you? Why are you feeling that way? Or those are the things that irritate me the most is when somebody's like, we just pray more about it, have more faith. And I'm like, no, that—like, you don't understand how, you know, the person probably has prayed about it. They probably have faith about it. But there's sometimes it takes things going hand in hand of, you know, praying and a person working together, um, to get them to a healing place. But yeah, just continuing to talk about it, start that conversation. That's the best way to get it going.

At least now that Megan's talked about like, oh yeah, pray more, all that stuff—I, oh my God, oh my gosh, I just—it just rates, just be—because my, I really do focus on grief care. That is like, oh, oh gosh, there's so many like, aren't you over it yet? Or yes, you need to pray more. Well, you know, all things work together are good. Oh, God needed another angel. No, he did not. Like, I—that is that is not the correct thing to say. Oh, he needed another angel. You know, when a baby dies, yeah, that's what I want to hear with my baby. Ness. So, um, it's just it kind of just more of listening more, you know, than talking. And, uh, I know some people are afraid to say something. They're afraid to say they're going to say the wrong thing. So I just encourage, well, don't say anything. It's fine. Just say you're there. You're present. And, um, a term that I, I learned, Megan—I just learned that this last year in 2023—spiritual bypassing. I literally just learned it. I didn't know I knew the term. It made sense, the meaning of it, but I had not heard the term. Spiritual bypassing literally means you're bypassing all your feelings, all the things you're experiencing, uh, with for the sake of being, uh, for the sake of your spiritual enlightenment. So, uh, it is so when people ignore their feelings, things are facing, or their grief, they just trying to just need to get through it. I'm going to rely on my religion solely, my religious books and scriptures, uh, to get through it. That's it. And it's become very common. And I guess now, uh, there's a lot of unlearning for those of us that grew up in a church. I would say it's just it's something that that we thought was the right thing to do because that was what, or say, because that's what was said to us. And so we, in my, in my church group, we talk about that a lot of the unlearning because a lot of us have church history of, uh, what, what was the right thing to say, like, oh, we just need to pray more. I'll pray with you. I'll, you know, read this scripture. All things work together for good. I mean, all that stupid stuff I just said. Scripture is stupid. Sorry. But no, that's not what I'm saying. Out of context, yes, yes, absolutely, absolutely.

So, uh, yeah, it just gets—even when Megan, when you're saying the, I just kind of I had that activated response in my body. I'm like, well, spiritual bypassing. That was probably me in the, in my twenties. Um, yeah, like that could probably define my entire twenties. Uh, but that's, that's a, that's another therapy session. I was like, that's the session with Megan. Okay, that's—which is interesting, which gets us to the next question. Uh, as pastors and ministers, how do we protect ourselves from traumatic situations online? Um, how do we, how do we care for our own mental health? How do we protect ourselves?

There's a term that's been going around, um, it's been around for a long time, but I think people are starting to recognize it. Um, actually, my friend Joanie, we did a podcast on this whole thing, and it's compassion fatigue. And it's literally people in some kind of caregiving ministry or profession. They'll experience it, and it can hit your emotional, your physical, your social, spiritual, and it's exhaustion of all of them. So it's like you care for people, but you're kind of numb to it all. So you can basically be—if, for instance, like I could be sitting across from somebody and hearing their story, and they could be just sharing it all with me, and I'm sitting there like, okay, we got twenty minutes left. Like, not really getting into it to be able to truly care for them because you've hit a point of you almost can't give anything else. And that's a real big thing with anyone who does ministry, whether you are on staff at a church or you're a volunteer caring for people either in person or online. If you don't find ways to take care of yourself, then you're going to get—you're going to fall right into that, and you won't even realize it till you're there because you just get to a point that you're sitting there listening, and you're like, I like I care, but I don't care right now. And that's a scary place to be in. And so you want to make sure to try to keep yourself from that. And there's a lot of different ways you can do that.

Um, self-care kind of has a maybe a bad rap. Um, people just think like, like, take a bath and bubble bath or something. And well, that may be great for some. Baths gross me out, so that's not going to be me. But like, exercising, talking with somebody else, like, having those people and community around you is huge. Finding real rest and not fake rest because we can say we're resting and then be thinking of the hundred things we need to do. It's not helpful. So finding ways to do that. Um, another way is like celebrating your ministry, like what you're doing, the even those the little wins, celebrating, bring that joy into what you're doing. Um, and there's I mean there's a whole bunch of other things that you can do. A really strange one that I tell people all the time is if you have a pet, talk to it. Um, they are the most confidential people or animals that you'll ever have. So you can talk to that pet, and it literally is like therapy. Um, there's actual like equestrian therapy where you can be with a horse and like be brushing it, the whole thing, which is really cool how that all works. But honestly, like, just getting it out, getting out what's bothering you, what's stressing you out, what all these things that are layered on top of each other—because we want to fully care for people, but sometimes you've got to find again those boundaries to care so much but be able to not let it just overwhelm you.

That was really good. I, I'm laughing because I'm thinking my dog will like literally get up and leave. She's not going to stick around for me to talk to her. She's like, nah, this too much. I'm going, my I'm going in my house, which is her crate, her safe space, you know? She's like, but, um, one thing just for me personally, I got connected—I've been in the recovery twelve steps space since 2009, but this year was the first time, or late last year was the first time I got connected into a twelve steps with fellow female pastors and pastor wives, and that has been a source of, of just life, uh, for me. That we could share, share about the tough stuff in ministry and our own personal lives. Uh, there's not much filtering, you know? There's not a whole lot of filtering because we're not—we know what each other's lives are like. I've never met—we've, I have met these people in person because we're all—it's all on Zoom and across the nation. But that has been just, um, so life-giving for me. And I highly recommend not just twelve steps, but I recommend any support or care group with fellow ministers, um, not in your—actually, that don't even live in your area because you might meet up with some, or you might meet them and see them out in the, in the wild, right? But, and it's not bad. It's just you just want to, um, yeah, you kind of want to have, uh, safety and people that you won't bump just happen to bump into. Um, so it's like, oh, you see them, you either with your spouse that you just whined and complained about, you know, in yesterday's meeting.

Yeah, it's, it's interesting, Stacy. I'm not going to tell you the name of the people that are in this text group, but I have a text group, uh, of, of, um, current and former pastors, uh, that exists on my phone right now. Um, and the chat group is called "chat grp group that will get you fired." Um, and it's, it's, um, it's like I said, existing and former pastors. Um, and, and, and it's the unfiltered version of, you know, the relationship. Um, and it's funny like I don't—I don't see any of these people in physical space. Um, but you know, when somebody's going through a hard time, you know, throw it in the text group, get a, get jump on a, a phone call, a Zoom, a FaceTime. Um, like, it's, it's really—it's really interesting to see the, um, I don't even know if it's the right word, but the cathartic, the, um, the, the freedom, the cleansing almost of being able to, um, to, to express some of that. And so, you know, I can fully relate. And so, um, this is interesting, you know? Let's protect our mental health by, um, singing the dogs is what I heard. Uh, by, by brushing horses and, um, and, and joining a chat group that's gonna get you fired. Fired sounds like a, a perfect plan, you know?

Yes, don't tell Tyler this, uh, Megan, that that won't go well. That that end well poorly for both of us.

So eventually, I, I don't know if this exists out there, but I'd love to have, you know, uh, husbands of, uh, uh, what do you call it, a minister—ministers, you know, that need their own support group.

Oh, there, there's a lot of, of there's a lot of spouse support groups in, in, in ministry, believe. Um, yeah, I mean, well, unfortunately, it's the, um, I mean, it can be, it can be a, a hard position, a hard life, especially without healthy boundaries. And so, um, you know, I, I know there's, there's a lot of, um, a lot of marital counseling and a lot the center around, um, you know, spouse support in those types of situations. And actually, you know, I've, I've worked on staffs that churches that were very—I've worked on staff for churches that couldn't even spell spouse. And then I've worked on staffs for churches that were so over-the-top caring and supportive of, of the spouses that were there, like, it's, it's really interesting to see how even, even churches have different takes on, on, on what's involved, uh, on keeping, uh, spouses and families, um, happy and stable, uh, during, you know, heavy ministry periods.

Hey, this was a, this was you—yeah, this was a really interesting conversation to maybe to start it, you know? I, I don't—

I know that we solved any problems here today, but moreover just brought attention to trauma, brought attention to crisis, to some of the difficult situations that we doing ministry are going through. In this situation, and so if you have, I tell you what, let's do this. If you have questions on this or you want to start to unpack what this would look like, I'm going to give you my cell phone number to talk about lack of boundaries. But you can text me here: 484-324-8724. No, it's not. I am kidding, it's not my cell. No, it is my cell phone. It's one of them. I've got multiple cell phones, but feel free to text me 484-324-8724, and I would love to talk with anybody that's going through this, that's struggling with how to handle or address or care for difficult situations with trauma and things like that. Because I think it's important that we take digital ministry to that level. I think it's important that we move beyond just doing chat hosting and simple conversations, and instead start to make ourselves as pastors, as ministers, far more accessible and start to really get into the meat of who people are. And trauma is a big part of who people are. You know, little traumas compile up to make a big trauma issue. And so let's resolve to make our digital churches and our physical churches better in that trauma situation.

So awesome. Hey, as we're landing the plane here, Stacy, any closing thoughts?

Yeah, you know, I just encourage people to start, just start, do some work of looking online. What are some resources to not just awareness, but training for yourself? One thing I will say is that there is the radio station K-LOVE. They have a crisis response team. They do free trainings, and it's online. Well, some of them are in person, some are online, but they are right now and have been for free. That's a great place to start. That is not the end-all, but that's a great place to start so that you're just aware. Like we talked about compassion fatigue, literally a whole day is training. And UNC compassion fatigue, you know, seven hours or whatever it is, and like I said, it's in person or online, but Crisis Response Care or something like that dot org. But that's to help get us equipped, get the conversation started, what's important, and we want to care for ourselves and care for others well.

Well, I'll Google Crisis Response for K-LOVE. I'll put a link in the show notes for that. Megan, any closing thoughts on your side?

I mean, Stacy summed it up pretty well. That's honestly what I was thinking of. Like, always be a learner, always be learning, because there is no way that we can learn everything about the brain and how it works and how it affects us as a whole person. So always be learning on just to improve your skills and how you have relationships with people, talking to them, how to better help other people, but then again, in turn, help yourself and take care of yourself, because that's extremely important.

Well, who said earlier that self-care is kind of like a stigma or a negative?

Yeah, Megan said connection to it.

Yeah, Megan, that was a good call. But yeah, I mean, self-care is not soul care. Two different things. It can be two different things. Stacy, you are so much fun. We got to have you back on the podcast. Why you? Another excuse to bring you back. You're, this is good stuff. Me, Megan, use. Well, we've got a couple other podcasts coming up, but hey, for today we're going to land the plane for Stacy. Soul care is not self-care, and for Megan, this is Jeff with the Church Digital. Thanks for jumping on the podcast. You all have a good day.