EP294 - Barbara Carneiro & Focusing Digital Communications for Church

And so people that will fund you will fund you because they want to be a part of something, and we have to give them the language for it. You will exhaust your friends if you're just asking for money to get your ministry going. Like, that's going to be exhausted very fast. But if you have people, if you give them clarity about what you're doing, they can then join you because there's clarity on what they are doing.

Welcome to the Church Digital podcast. Through this podcast, we'll talk about the technological innovations within the church, but more than tech for tech itself, we'll address deeper questions. Is disciplemaking possible digitally? How should we approach the digital mission field? Can a biblically grounded church operate in digital space? And where does the metaverse and artificial intelligence fit into all of this? Whether you're a big or small church, the Church Digital's goal is to help churches like yours learn to be a multiplying church digitally and physically. And now here's your host, Jeff Reed.

Episode 294 of the Church Digital podcast. Jeff Reed here, founder of the Church Digital. And oh my gosh, I'm doing this podcast and I'm not wearing a hat, and so it's gonna be weird. I'm gonna put a hat on. On YouTube, you can go watch this video over on YouTube and see what Jeff looks like when he doesn't wear a hat because I've got this beard. I have never been more self-conscious about my bald head now that I have a beard. Like, when it was just a goatee, I didn't care. But like, when I take my hat off and it's like I've got hair everywhere except for the spot up top where it doesn't grow anymore, the big spot up top. Like, you didn't want to know this, but I'm just sharing from the soul because this is what I do for the podcast. You get the unfiltered view of the podcast.

By the way, talking about unfiltered, we're getting to some unfiltered conversation here with Church Digital podcast Barbara Carero coming up in a minute. But all of this is brought to you by Riverside. Riverside, one of the sponsors here with the Church Digital, especially the podcast. And I gotta tell you, we just continue to be impressed with Riverside. We used their script software, their teleprompter software for this episode. Teleprompter software this past week. I'll tell you the thing that most impressed me about Riverside is it was funny. I was actually doing a training with one of our content directors, Tom Pounder. Tom Pounder, TCD Sidekick. You all know the podcast. Tom, most of you know him. He is moving to Riverside as well. He's going to start to produce his podcast with Riverside. As we've talked about it and he's seen some of the things, do shorts and AI, how they've infused it in programming, he's been really excited. And so this past week I jumped on a Riverside call. Maybe it was Google Meet, but I walked him through a lot of functionality of Riverside, how it works, and just coaching him through it. It's like a thirty-minute conversation. Riverside's so intuitive for most uses, but it was really interesting. While I was on the call with Tom, I get an email from, I think, Abe or from Riverside, and it's the mass email newsletter they send out weekly or whatever. But this particular email was like all the bug patches and upgrades and features that came into Riverside. And so I open up this email on my phone and I just, because I'm listening to Tom talk, you know, just look, you know, whatever, and just on my phone kind of scrolling through. And I just keep scrolling through, just keep scrolling through, just keep scrolling through, like all the improvements that they have put into Riverside. I just, I've constantly, I don't have contact with the inside. I don't know what's going on. I don't know Riverside's roadmap, but they are putting so much effort and energy into Riverside right now. It is incredible.

Church, if you're not utilizing this software for podcast recordings, for remote interviews, for creation of shorts, like the little bit of money that Riverside costs is ridiculous. The power that you're getting, the horsepower, the functionality, the potential of what Riverside is, y'all definitely need to check it out. Go to the website, thechurchdigital.riverside. Get more information, check it out. And tell him Jeff said hello. It's really good stuff. We, I think we're exclusively using Riverside. You know what, we've got one guy left. There's one show left here on the podcast network that's not using Riverside. I gotta get that guy to change. I'm on a mission. I got a lot of goals in life. I'll be honest, but that's one of them is to get, I'm not going to insert name here, I'm not going to call them out publicly, although I really, really want to, but that's another one. Hey, let's get into the podcast.

Barbara Carero. I told you this is an unfiltered view with the Church Digital podcast. So we are doing live recordings of the podcast now. We try to for the majority of them over on Discord. By the way, if you're not on the Church Digital Discord server, thechurchdigital.discord. The Church Digital Discord. Sign up, get in there. Oh my gosh, there's like so many events and live podcast recordings and open offices and the engagement, the community, it's been unbelievable. We used to put a lot of effort. We used to involve ourselves in a platform that we will no longer speak of, formerly known as Mighty Networks. And it was horrible. It was a horrible experience. Like, it just wasn't what it needed to be. And we officially publicly launched Discord, I don't know, a week or so ago now, and we've doubled in size. We just have so much more engagement, so much more community, so much more live streaming and dialoging and international. Oh my gosh, so much stuff. We're going to talk about that soon with the Church Digital.

And really, I'm just going to be honest, like one of the architects and maybe the best addition that we've done in the Church Digital was involving ourselves with Barbara Carero in Word Revolution. Barbara is CEO of the agency over there at Word Revolution. And I am so impressed. We've been working with her for about ten months on different projects. She spearheaded our brand rebranding. She and her team, our brand, our communication strategy, our just, you know, so much, even like what we're doing on a day-to-day basis, not only the strategy aspects but how we're communicating. And to be honest, a lot of what my vision for what the Church Digital was, we'll talk about it in the show, a lot of my vision, she's owning it and she's telling it back better than I am. And she's such an asset for us. We brought her on the Church Digital team. She's connections director and communications. And a lot of the top funnel stuff, if you do the funnel talk, she's that and then feeds into Andy, who's now overseeing community, which is Discord and some other things. And so like, it's been an incredible experience.

And so her agency really works with church rebranding, church strategy, church communication stuff. And we, the Church Digital, this summer, summer twenty-four, we're doing a series of learning communities. It's like, hey, who are we going to do? Like, what learning communities are we going to kind of open up with and get a proof of concept on? And Barbara is doing some phenomenal work with communications. And so it's like, all right, Barbara, you know, are you willing to step in? And she is. And so we're going to be offering a learning community on Church Communications here summer twenty-four. And I would challenge you all to check out Barbara's communications. If you are an organization that is struggling with branding, with messaging, with communications, with the strategy implications of it, with getting people to own your vision, we talk about this portability. If getting people to own your vision, Barbara has done that for the Church Digital in a big way. And she's doing a learning community to help organizations and churches like yours figure it out for you.

So more information on learning communities, thechurchdigital.learning-communities. Check out its plural, communities. We'll put a link in the show notes towards it.

Disclaimer here on the podcast: this is probably the most issues we've had with live podcast recordings and streams. We've not had any issues, and for whatever reason, this podcast we had the most issues with the live stream. So be patient with us on the tech. It'll hold up for the most part, and I think everything came through okay. There was a lot of just calm distractions kind of walking into this conversation. Solid, you know, life sometimes gets messy and intersects into what we're trying to do, and you're feeling that in real time. Remember, this is the unfiltered episode two ninety-four of the Church Digital podcast. You're getting the full view. So we'll talk about it some on the show, but definitely a big win. Whether you're a physical church, whether you're a digital church, whether something in between, whether you're just trying to figure this out, nonprofit, Christian ministry, like there are takeaways for all of you. So check out myself, Jeff, the Church Digital, and Barbara with the Church Digital and Word Revolution in a conversation on digital communications for churches.

Okay, everybody, here you go.

Hey, Barbara, how you doing?

I'm good. I'm good.

So this is going to be an interesting conversation. I was telling them, you know, you are just getting ready to leave the country, moving with your family over to Barcelona. I told them an interesting story where I almost died in Barcelona at the bar at the Spain-France border. I was kayaking. I was on a mission trip to Barcelona. Actually had a friend at the time that was playing for the Barcelona Dragons, which was the NFL minor league team that was in Barcelona. And so I was visiting him as well, and we went kayaking. And my kayak overturned in the white waters in France. And I didn't overturn it and kind of like was drowning for a little bit. And by the time they got me out, I didn't even go to the hospital, but you know, they get me out, they do the chest compressions, I get all the water out of me, and it was crazy. They didn't do mouth-to-mouth. If my friend had actually done mouth-to-mouth on me, like that would have been awkward. It was a big football player guy. But no, it was an interesting moment. I lost my class ring. It was my college class ring at the time, and it's actually somewhere at the bottom of some river in France or Spain. So hopefully you don't die in Barcelona, Barbara. I don't want to jinx the situation, but that would be my wish for you. And but I was like, you know, she's moving and so we've been doing a lot of running on both sides. I've been dealing with insurance companies and calling a bunch of that besides the other stuff. But I am excited and looking forward to coming into this conversation centered around church communication.

So how are you doing today? Are you settled in? Everything good? What's your day look like so far?

We are, you know, we're in that limbo where we're not there, we're not here anymore. So it's kind of like half of the house is gone, but then half of the house is still here. And you know, we kind of have a foot there and a foot here.

So I, I, I hate limbo. Um, so I'm, I'm kind of like just ready to be done. Um, but you know, there's something to be said about mourning what you're leaving behind and the things that you're going to, uh, you know, not see for a little, a little bit. So I don't want to rush that process of going through those emotional roller coasters. This will be the first time we do not live in the US for like in the last, um, 15, 15 years. So yeah, so US will be a place of visit for me now, like vacation. Yeah.

I've never, I've never lived outside of the country. You know, I've visited and traveled, but um, you were, you were more South American initially, right? Yes. So Spain will be the seventh country I'll live in. Um, yeah. Brazil, Chile, Argentina, Portugal, England, US, and now Spain. Where England, I was in London. That's where I finished my degree. Yeah. Wow. I, I, that London is the place that I would love to. I, I did a lot of, uh, my, my minor in college was British literature and actually 19th century British literature. And, and I can tell you a bunch of stuff about stuff you don't care about. But, um, I, you know, have always been like, I want to go to London one day. And so one day, one day it'll actually happen. But we're not there now.

All right. Hey, let's, let's dig in here. We're talking about, um, we're talking about church communications. And you know, I've shared your story often here, uh, on streams and podcasts, talking about, uh, you know, a lot of the, the things, uh, that you've helped us figure out with the church digital, with our, our rebranding, uh, merging digital Church Network and the church digital together. Um, helping us simplify our, our message and the importance of that. Um, you know, building the websites, helping us with call to actions, um, you know, unifying what we're doing and using that, that, that really that vision to, to help us filter out what we are and what we're not. Um, and, and it's funny like even as early as recent as today, you know, we're in meetings talking about, and some of the stuff I want to hear and some of the stuff I'm like, I don't, I don't like what you're saying right now, Barbara. Not to say that it's wrong, but it's, it's, it's forcing me, uh, to kind of limit who I am because I, I want to do everything for everybody. I, I want to, I want to be, um, you know, salt. I want to be everywhere, you know. We're, we're the salt of the earth. And, and sometimes by doing everything, by trying to reach everybody, you reach nobody. And, um, you know, the, the more narrow you reach, the more people that you reach. And so it's, it's, it's hard to in digital context. I'm just gonna be honest. It's hard for me to pivot. And I know that's, that's a challenge for a lot of our churches because physically it's everywhere, everything. And, and when they try to be everywhere and everything for everyone digitally, you know, there's a lot of challenges in that.

So man, I would love to just even open up a little bit here for you. And, and like, as, as we're talking, you know, digital, uh, communications, you know, we're talking, let's talk physical church, let's talk digital expressions of church, established, new, uh, plants, you know, top to bottom. What are, what are some of the challenges? What are some of the, um, the, the hurdles? How, and how do we, you even start to overcome that?

Yeah. So, uh, you know, the idea of, of having an audience is something that we've heard for a long time. Like people will talk about, like, you know, define your audience, get to know your audience. Uh, and I feel like we've gotten to a point where the idea of an audience is this, this like very abstract concept, right? I like, oh yeah, I have an audience. Like, what is it? Like, how, how can we, um, humanize that and not seeing it as an abstract constant? Start seeing people. Uh, and so I think more, more often than not, like the things that I, I sometimes share with leaders and, and, uh, church leaders is like, listen, I don't want you to think of serving everybody because even that is abstract. Who's sitting at your table when you're talking? When you're describing? When you're sharing what you do? Who's sitting at your table? And now obviously we can have digital tables, right? We can have digital gatherings. We can have in-person gatherings. Like all of those, like the expressions can be endless. But who, who's sitting with you? Not everybody will sit with you. And what you're doing at some point in time, sometimes the easiest way to start is by saying, who would never sit at my table? Because there are, there are people that will never sit at my table. Not because I don't want to work with them. Not because I don't want to minister to them. Not because I don't want to serve them. But because there's just no point of connection. Uh, that person would choose not to sit at my table. And so there has to be a table somewhere for that person because God is that good. Like he wants everybody to have a seat at a table. And so I need to start by saying some people will never sit at my table. And if I can start looking at who would have a part time, or where's the greatest gap, right? So I can say, well, it'll be easier for some people than others. So some have a smaller gap than others will have. Does that mean that I, you know, and let's just give examples. Like I may say, well, a 65-year-old male may never sit at a table with me, me, with me listening to what I got to say. Maybe we're just saying that there's going to be somebody at some point in the future that will be like, he's 65, he's a male, and he's willing to hear what I say. So you always have exceptions to that role. We're not in, like, we use these stereotypes as, as a way to kind of see something. But I'm not saying that I will never speak to a 65-year-old male, right? I'm simply saying there's a greater gap between me and them. Um, if I think of an 18-year-old boy, that's probably a similar gap too. Like there's a wide gap there for me to speak unless it's like a friend to my son or my son himself, you know? So, uh, depending on your ministry, your talents, your gifts, where God has placed you, the ministry he's put in your heart, there will be people with a shorter gap towards you than others. And so all I need, I can start with saying, okay, for some people it will be really hard to actually want to sit down with me and talk. And so who's sitting there? Who do you see? And the more I can humanize that vision, the easier it will be for me to speak to them.

It's interesting what, now I mean, you're talking about who's at the table, who do you, who do you have? And you know, let's, let's talk, let's talk about the planters. Like most of the, the, the planters, the people that are coming and starting digital churches, like they, they have a target audience in mind that, that really comes from their vision, their dreams, their desires. Um, like is that, is that selfishly motivated? Should we be looking at who our connections are instead of who we want them to be? Should we, you know, desire to, to change and, and recruit? Like, how, how do we feel that tension of who we want to become, who we want our church to be, maybe on a planting perspective, and then who we're actually getting at this point? Like, you know, and even just confession, I felt this with the church digital where, you know, a lot of, a lot of our move to Discord was to try to reach a different demographic. We were reaching a lot of, well, people that look like me. Uh, to be honest, mid-40s with you know, bald. Um, but and we wanted to move away from the mid-40 bald looking guy. I mean, I'm kind of attractive, I think. But you know, I'd rather see some, some younger faces. And so like, is that, is that selfishly motivated? How do, how do we feel that tension and even balance who we are versus who we want to be?

Yeah. Uh, I, I do believe that God plants those seeds. Like I believe that he's going to give you a passion, a vision, uh, for a group of people. Uh, and, uh, it's, it's so amazing for, for me to see how, uh, the level of connection. It's not necessarily just based on age. Now I'll be honest, there is like, what we got, like, I let's put a name to it. Like the golden ratio or whatever, the golden range. So there's a, a, a, a 10, like, if you look at somebody that is 10 years younger, 10 years older than you, there's a greater chance that they, there would be a connection there. Uh, just naturally because there is not, like, you know, just think of generational gaps to begin with. So naturally, if you're, let's just go to the traditional church, if you get, if you have a pastor that is 52, there's a good chance a big chunk of the congregation will be 42 to 62 naturally. Does that mean they can't attract other people? No, they can. Sometimes you have a second pastor that is younger or this person is transitioning from somebody else. But naturally, so the least, like the path with least resistance will be somebody 10 years younger, 10 years older. That is a fact. It's very natural that even your friends group will be similar to what I'm describing. But we can connect with people from different places than just our age, right? So you can find connections based on key human desires, based on stages of life, based on affinity. Uh, and so there are ways to create your church, your movement, your ministry based on something else that is not age. I think age affects it, but I don't think it defines it.

Yeah. Um, Whitebeard sharing a comment right now in the, in the chat. I don't know if you can see that. You can click on the, uh, chat bubble in the upper right hand corner to, to get connected with that. By the way, we're doing this live. I probably said that. But Whitebeard, uh, which is so true. I look old but speak to a younger audience. Um, and, and so like, you know, some of us are capable of that. Um, I don't know if I, I don't know if I do, to be honest. Like, I, I would, I mean, I've even in, in the movement of what we're doing here with the church digital, like, I, we, we do, there are younger people that are, but you know, I don't, I don't know that I'm like, as, as much as Whitebeard is the target to kind of do what, what he's able to do, build those relationships. Um, or at least I'm sensitive to the fact that, you know, I look the way that I look. Um, what, um, as we're, and one of the things that I love that you did for us is, is really helped us, um, you know, recognize who we, uh, are reaching, who we wanted to reach, and then simplify everything that we were doing that, that was misaligned. And there was, you know, historically, you know, within the church digital, and this is my fault because I want to make everybody happy. Um, you know, we were, we were kind of all over the place. But the, the reality is, is that we needed to, to really align that and bring that down. Um, how, how do we, how do we get to that place? You know, and I'm even talking physical churches that, um, really struggle with that, you know, trying to, they do everything for everyone. And that's kind of the approach towards that. And once again, that may work physically, but digitally there's challenges to that. So, um, how, how do we kind of resolve and get past not just recognizing who our audience is, but narrowing down the focus of what we're actually doing to only target that audience? Is that even the right play?

Yeah. So, uh, I use, uh, food metaphors often. So forgive me if you guys haven't had any lunch yet. Uh, but you have, you ever been to Häagen-Dazs?

Does, as a diabetic, not really, not lately. No, thank you. I do know what you're talking about historically, yes.

Well, one of my, one of my aunts, she used to work for Häagen-Dazs. And her job was to go to places like the Dominican Republic and try the ice cream. And so that was, that was her job. Like she, she would literally, so she would fly to all of their resorts and whatever, whatever, and just try the ice cream. And so that was her job. But you know, one of the things about Häagen-Dazs is that there's like all of these luxurious, like very, like, you know, uh, flavors and, you know, mixtures and whatever. And, uh, I used to

Fight my kids because I was like, "I will forbid you from going to Haagen-Dazs and picking vanilla." There's just, I know, like, I'm not gonna spend like, you're gonna pick a flavor that really, like, guys, like, elevate your dessert, you know, like ice cream experience, you know what I mean? It's really expensive for plane. There's gotta be something better. We're not going for vanilla. Like, I refuse. Like, if you want vanilla, get McDonald's or whatever thing if the machine is working. But, you know, like, we're not doing that.

So, um, but there's this one story and I wish I could quote it correctly, but I can't remember even who said it. But if you were to send ten people to an ice cream store, to a Haagen-Dazs, and if you were to say, "You all have to agree on, you have free ice cream for life, but you all have to agree on a flavor," they would all come back with vanilla. Who goes to a Haagen-Dazs for vanilla? Nobody, right? And so I need you to think of this from this angle. As soon as you have two audiences, you have to lose something. And so instead of giving something, you're actually gonna lose something of who you are, of your gifts, of your talents, of your resources. And so what I want you to think is, "I need to operate at the maximum of my ability," and the maximum of my ability is a talent, a specific way of speaking, a specific way of ministering, a specific way of serving that in some cases it's not like it's excluding people, but it's so intentional to a group of people that their option is none but to say yes.

And so what you're doing is you're accelerating the path towards somebody. Um, I'll describe it this way. You have to think that any ministry has, uh, you know, picture those, um, uh, in the airport you have those like moving, moving, um, pathways. How do you? Yeah, so the moving walkways. So imagine that they're moving walkways coming towards you at a very slow pace. So you have people, not, they will find you somehow. Maybe they will hear from somebody. Maybe they'll find you on Google. Uh, there's something that is going to bring them to you at a slow base. Uh, and you have the chance to accelerate one of these paths. Which one do you want to accelerate?

So just imagine you have a wrench and you can go and you can say, "There's this one, one of these paths I can accelerate," and that's where you put your intentionality. So I'm not slowing down the other ones. They're still coming to me, but they're coming at the pace they're coming. But I'm speeding up the process for one of them to find us. And so that's what we did for the church digital. We said, "There's this one group and we're going to make a path that is so clear for them to cross that they would not look to the left or to the right. It would be very clear." And so when you make one of these paths clear, you will see more movement towards you. And then once you have, you know, if this one is working, then you can think about a second path and the third path and a fourth path. Uh, but otherwise you're just going to be diluting your efforts.

To do that, we had to sacrifice, you know, some stuff. And it's interesting, you know, Whitebeard's even referencing that in chat. Um, he's like, uh, "I will draw a younger crowd because I use EDM as worship music." Now, if you don't know Whitebeard, Whitebeard is, um, Whitebeard works every December at Santa Claus. Um, he is the Christian version of ZZ Top. And, um, uh, and he's like, "And I will, and it will turn it will turn off older people, but he's okay with that." This what he's saying. So so here's a guy, in his Whitebeard, how old are you actually? I would probably say mid-sixties. Um, fifty-six, sorry. Um, fifty-six. And, uh, but he is very much kind of like that, you know, seventies rocker guy mindset with the with the long beard. Literally, he told me at one point his beard was over twelve inches long. I forget if it was fourteen inches long. And, um, and so this is not the guy. When he's like younger audience, he's he's like walking around the Art District in, uh, in Tampa, which is called Ybor City, and and wearing a monk outfit and and doing like street ministry with with people. And and that's like how he he operates, which is not, um, you know, typically what you would see for somebody like that. Literally, he's Whitebeard, pun monk, because he preaches punks, um, with or punk music and looks like a monk when when he does it. And, um, like there's a sacrificial piece of that, right? Like the the people that are involved in his ministry, people that look like him and maybe supporting him, aren't maybe as engaged in EDM music as much as the the audience that they're trying to reach.

And Jeff, I think that we forget that every decision we make is either bringing people closer or further away from from you. Every decision. So it doesn't matter what you pick. Like, if you're picking Twitch versus Facebook, those two are digital, you know, that decision alone is going to bring some people faster, and it will, you know, slow down, um, what other people will, how fast they will come to you. So the channels you pick, the your theology, your personality, some people will have like, "Oh man, this person is just too much for me," like, you know, over the top. And some people will be like, "Ah, this person is just too boring, like too monotone."

I was a part of a discipleship group. I'm not going to say the name out loud, but I was a part of the discipleship group that happens at seven PM. So it's like after the day was over. And let me tell you, I would watch the recordings at two X, you know, like two times faster, and it was still slow for me. So you can imagine what it felt like in real person. Everybody was just like, and and I'm, you know, I just need a faster energy. Nothing wrong with the group. It was phenomenal. The teachings, like, everything about it was great. But but it was just a different rhythm that I could handle personally, just my personal preference. And so you're going to see that there. Whatever decisions you make, and for other people it will be too fast.

Um, I have a cohort where we're launching a learning community on communications, which is a similar content that I teach in a in another cohort. And, uh, you know, you will run it and some point, and people will be like, "Yeah, I wish you could could participate more." And then the next time you run it, and people will be like, "I don't like to be on, you know, put on the spot." I was like, "Okay, either you participate, like, which one?" You know, so every decision you make is already making people say yes or no. The only thing I'm giving you is permission to own it. So you're basically saying, "When I make this decision, I'm making an intentional decision to accelerate the path for this person." And so you have control over it. Take control. Be intentional with what you're building, and you will see faster results.

And it's it's so awesome when you see some of those results come in, you know, when you when you you limit, limit your focus and and, uh, you get, you know, quote unquote conversions, when when the when the CTA works and and you know it does that. And you know we we at at a personal level we saw that happen, you know, in a big way with with the Discord. And so driving, uh, you know, the initial email that that I sent out, the note from Jeff, uh, you know, that went out to our database, and seeing, you know, a lot of those those people come on, we had, I mean, it looks like we we've met almost a hundred people, um, since that initial went out. And like engagement, the community has been been really good on Discord. But there was there was one guy that that to be honest that day it just kind of like it felt like it was everybody else like coming in. It was a name I didn't recognize. But to be honest, the database is so big, like I don't, I don't keep tabs with everybody. I thought, "Oh, I just met this guy at a conference or something." And, um, he was he was from another country. But he was really engaging and meeting and talking with people on their own. And then, um, you know, on on my calendar I I see a meeting pop up that's with this guy. Well, actually, I didn't realize was this. Uh, just this meeting popped up. Uh, we we and this is, you know, one of Barbara's pet projects and the things that she was really excited about with the website launch. She pioneered this idea of doing a church planting assessment where there was a series of questions and and, uh, if you score kind of okay, like there's call to actions and there's there's steps for you to take. If you score pretty well, then there's other steps and actions to take. And and if you scored like freaking incredible, um, you know, you're you're, you know, one-on-one meeting with me at some point. There's there's a link to schedule that. And we we can talk through it. And so by the way, Barbara and, uh, uh, J came up with the questions and and you know launched that. And, uh, and so sure enough, this guy from another country, um, walks into this meeting with me. And, um, and so I just, you know, start him a conversation. "Who are you? What's going on?" "Oh yeah, you're on Discord. That's great. Tell me your story." "Oh, you're already in the server. That's awesome. I didn't realize that." Um, you know, "Tell me, tell me who you are." And, um, his story, like, literally was the example of the story of the person we were we were targeting. Like, it was, um, he, uh, wanted to do a a digital church. Uh, his his physical church didn't approve, mocked him for it. He was searching on Google trying to find community. He found the church digital, one of the videos that I did, because he was looking up microsites on YouTube, watched that, um, and woke up and was and knew of us like for a month was kind of on the outskirts in the crowd. And, uh, and he says he went back to the website, the church digital, you know, as he was just searching around, and he noticed it was a new website. And the website had a clearer focus to really target that planting, the the the community, creating community, uh, in a network for like-minded people. And, uh, and that's where he did the assessment. He booked a meeting with me same day. He jumped in the community, started meeting. Like, it was, it was the, this is the guy that that we literally, like, I I don't, Saddleback calls a Saddleback Sam. It's like the target audience. It's it's like the the paradigm, uh, that we aimed. And, um, you know, it's like I sat back, I was like, "Crap, it worked," you know? It's like we we sacrificed all all this stuff to to really narrow down to who do we want to be and who we wanted to be. It actually worked. And and he's he's engaging in community and dialoguing and other people are having meetings with him. And and it's really, we're connecting with other people. And it's like, "Oh my gosh, like this this whole digital communications thing can actually work when there's intentionality." Um, it hurts when you have to excuse, but it hurts when you have to cut. But the the payoff is worth it, right? She is choked up with emotion or something. Um, yeah, that that is so good. Um, she is, uh, we're trying to find them and they're praying to find us. And that that was true, uh, with this situation. This guy, you know, shared the story of how he was literally Googling, trying to find. And and I've had hundreds of those conversations over the years. I've got some crazy idea. My pastor thinks I'm nuts. My friends have no idea how to support me. My wife's not even sure if like this is legit, um, you know? And hundreds, hundreds of calls ago was like, "That's a great idea. You should totally try it." Now it's like, "Hey, that's a great idea. I know three people that are doing something similar. Would you like to meet them?" And so it's, um, it's it's interesting to see how the, you know, the crazies are getting validated. And, uh, and God's kind of making those some connections in place. And you know, Jeff, there's, um, there's power in speaking their language. We have to acknowledge that we're all looking for that. We're all looking for people that are speaking our language. Uh, and, uh, there's there's so much power in being clear with the language that we're utilizing because that's the first thing they will, they will connect with. Uh, and so I

Was telling you like there are people out there praying that something like DCC exists and so there's people out there praying that there's something like the church that you want to plant. They're praying about it. They're asking God to help them find an expression of faith or church like that. And God has placed that desire in you. Has placed that desire in your spirit. And so he's going to equip you to do it.

Now imagine if you have a, you know, we, okay, I'm going to go back to food. Yeah, we used to have this restaurant in Annapolis. I maybe it's still there. And they sell Thai food and donuts. Now when you think of those two together, it's like that's not a common connection, right? And so first of all, here's my assumption: they're neither good at Thai food or donuts. And it was the best donuts in, I just never figured it out why. Because in my mind I would not look for that when I was looking for donuts and I would not assume that that was a place for donuts because there's a mix and match of things that just don't go together. And for real, they were the best donuts in town and I lived in Annapolis for several years and never knew about it until we're about to leave. And so it was like, how come it never occur to me to even try? Like I'm not saying like, you know, but it didn't occur for me to even try.

So when people are looking for what they need and your message is Thai food and donuts, they won't trust the Thai food or the donuts. And you have to remember that: be as clear as you can, as much as you can. And I said this and I repeat it: like nobody has ever narrowed down too much. I, you know what, that is something I want you to speak to. That was impactful for me. My initial reaction to that was that's pilot crap. But I really had to, I'm just going to be honest, like I had to really internalize that and wrestle with it, you know? And there's even in digital communication, you try to reach everybody, you reach nobody. When you only try to reach a certain person, you reach a ton of them. And so it's like I know that principle, but it really is, it's the weight of, okay, I'm going to have to cut off. By focusing in, I'm letting go. And so when you're like, you know, nobody niches down, nobody targets down, nobody's disappointed by that. It's like, oh my gosh, like because that's because it's the price of releasing. It's the trust of, okay, there's going to be something better. I have to do, I have to release in order to receive. That's hard. Like that is not something that is easy for, especially an established organization. Like Planters would have an easier problem with that. An established church? Oh yeah, no, no, no, this will work. Like we'll try to reach everybody. We just do it digitally. We'll do it on Facebook. No problem. But it doesn't work. And so like, talk about that. Talk about maybe the cost of what it feels like to let go and dealing with that.

So let's talk about cost because we think that the cost is when we say no, but the real cost is when we say yes. So if I say no to one thing, I'm saying no to one thing. But if I'm saying yes to one thing, I'm saying no to ten things. Does that make sense? Every yes you say is a no to a bunch of other things. And so I had to go through that process myself as well of thinking, every yes I say, okay, yeah, I'm going to serve that group. Oh yeah, I'm going to do that thing. Every yes that I'm saying, there's ten nos that automatically are created because when I'm doing this, I can't do those other ten things. And so every yes is actually more nos. So that was a moment of freedom that gave me permission to continue to be as narrow as I possibly could.

Now, this idea of being narrow will also create a new concept, which is the idea of being viral for you. Everybody thinks we need to be viral. We need to be big. We need to be gigantic. We need to be expanding. We need to be like, yes, growth is good. I believe God is the one that takes care of that growth. What I need you to do is say, I'm going to be so visible in a group of people that nobody will ever say I didn't hear about you. I didn't know about you. And so it's viral for you, viral in a small, a smaller setting than out in the world. Because if you're trying to be everything for everybody, you're basically going to have to be visible in different places. But if you're trying to be visible for a group of people, you can become more known and visible to that group without having to worry about the rest. And so you can become viral within a small setting. But the other example is, again, my kids give me so many examples. Chuck-E-Cheese. You guys ever been to Chuck-E-Cheese? And you have that machine where they basically put the kid inside and they fly all those tickets and the kid has to grab as many tickets as they can, okay? What do kids do? They try to catch all the tickets they can. And all I'm thinking is like, dude, stop. See the flow of wind and put your hands like this. It's like, just see how the tickets are rotating. Stop right there. Put your hands and then when they come, you grab a bunch at once, right?

And so this sense of lack of movement at times is what we cannot handle because when you're narrow, you're going to be doing less. And most people can't handle that because we're so like, we got to run, we gotta grab, we gotta. And so you're trying, but then the kid comes out and he's like, well, I grabbed five tickets. Well, yeah, because your effort to reach one made you lose the next one and made you lose the next one. Where if you stop and you're visible in that one place that God has designed for you, he will move the winds to bring the tickets to you. That's it.

Wow, that's a lot of faith. That's it. So and that's what we're seeing. Powerful stuff. We're seeing God bring to us the people that need the very thing that you've developed. And so there is a need. God knows about that need. He's answering that need. But we're simply saying we're not going to leave our spot. We're going to stay right here on this lane so that we can be visible to this group faster than we would normally be visible to them.

Man, it's just so much right there. How do we, so let me add one more thing that I think could again, we need to take this to the practical side of things because it's like, okay, Barbara, great concepts, but how do we actually do those things? Like, and so here's what I have found to be true: I can only control a few things. I cannot control the growth. I cannot control what people do. But I can control where I'm visible, how I'm visible, and how frequently I'm visible. I can say, hey, I'm going to show up on Discord. I'm going to show up as a person of peace and I'm going to show up frequently. I'm going to show up every week. I'm going to show up every day. I'm going to show up once. Whatever. So you can control these three things: where you show up, how you show up, and how frequently you show up.

And so I cannot be in twenty-five platforms at once the same way that I can be in one or two. I also should have clarity on who I am when I show up in those groups. So for me, the I want to be the person that reveals the heartbeat of the people around me. That's kind of like the movement behind me. It's like I want to be the person that reveals the heartbeat. Like I want to be able to see it and bring it to the surface. So when you think of your ministry, what do you want people to see in you? What do you want them to see? What's the story you want them to tell about you? And all you have to do is you show up where they are as that person as frequently as you can. Those are the things you can control.

It's interesting because you're recognizing that different platforms have different, you know, target audiences. And as you're engaging with those platforms, it's not omnichannel where you're just broadcasting the same thing across all of them. It's more targeted communications. And so targeted communications, you're more intentionally focused on your message and what you're presenting at that time on that platform versus how you're represented in other platforms. And moving forward, you know, it's interesting like that concept. That's actually, you know, Seth Godin wrote a book like Quitter or Loser or something back in the day. It's really small book. But actually I read that when I was running a Christian bookstore at the time. And I read that book and I was like, all right, I need to shut down my business. Like it was just this complete focus shift of the book. Because it was, I mean, basically the premise of the book is if you're not the best at what you do, then you need to find what you're the best at and go do that. Because everything else is going to be a distraction. And you know, this book was like 2007. But he was talking about how in digital space, it's such a niche focus that unless you're standing out, that going back to your big fish in a small pond versus a small fish in a big pond, like that's how you're going to connect.

You know, I remember I did when I first cast vision to some of my friends for the church digital. I said to a guy named, he was an executive pastor of the church I used to work at and he wasn't there anymore either. But I cast vision to, you know, Church Digital. What are you doing? I was like, oh, you know, I want to help every church, you know, understand digital strategy or some vague something like that. And he was like, Jeff, there's three hundred thousand churches. And I was like, yeah, sure, that's the vision. And he's like, it was so funny. It wasn't, Jeff, that's not achievable. Jeff, that's not, Jeff, you know, like he didn't, he says, Jeff, honestly, that's just sounds boring. That was his words. It was that sounds boring. And I was like, what do you, what do you mean? And it really started to unpack it. It's like, no, Jeff, if you're going to stand out, it's not everybody. It's somebody. And it's individuals that really, that was the early birth. And had been involved in like movements, international movements overseas. And you know, really seeing God move. And it was much more about an individual than something in mass. And really when I look at some of these movements digitally, it's the guys like Mark that are like, hey, I'm reaching gamers. And when Grandma comes along, that's great, but I'm not targeting Grandma. I'm reaching gamers. And when the gamer's wife comes along, that's great, but I'm really targeting gamers. And like, those are the guys and the gals that are successful right now. The ones, at least in planting, the ones that are targeted towards that. And honestly, like that's been a really difficult pill for the established church to swallow because they're so used to, well, we just want to, you know, get the extra twenty percent digitally of what we're already doing physically. You know, put the stream on Facebook and we'll engage with people and that will work to some level. But the amount of energy that you're putting in that compared to, you know, something more targeted, like it's just difficult to get an established church to maybe understand some of these principles.

It is. It's shifting the Titanic. Oh, that's interesting dynamic right there. The Titanic. Stay away from the iceberg that's looming. That's one of the things you know that you've been and I just want to even touch base on this a little bit as my insurance company calls me to talk with me again. One of the things that

I would love to talk with you about, you know, one of the things that we're talking about as an organization is funding and fundraising, and that was actually a meeting that we had this morning. And Barbara, you were very impassioned about some of the challenges and opportunities for that. And you know, it's interesting organizationally as we're trying to deal with funding. I know at the planning level every planter we talk with is dealing with the same funding issues. And you know, part of me is as the, you know, a guy that's kind of helping with this movement and working with a lot of our planters is man, I'd love to figure out even how to like solve the problem for everybody. I don't know if that's officially my problem and that's something I'm praying about, but that's like part of me as the hey, I want to make everybody happy as well. Let's not solve it just for us, let's solve it for everybody. What do we need to do?

But you know, you really had some interesting perspectives talking about funding, and so man, I would love to get some of that insight from you right now because so many of the people listening to this are dealing with the same things.

I want to start with a concept that has to do with your movement. I believe everybody has a movement in them, especially ministries. Like if God has placed a desire in your heart, it's a movement that he's planted, and so that movement in itself is designed to move, right? It's designed to grow and expand and cause something beyond yourself. And so you may be the recipient of that idea, but it's supposed to go beyond you. And some of us don't know how to make that movement portable.

And I think one of the there's two pieces: one is language and one is clarity. So I have to have clarity on what this movement is, and I need to have language attached to it that makes it portable. So when I say hey, we're going to validate churches in digital spaces, um, Jeff is not the only person that can do it because other people can embrace that vision and they can do it in different settings, in different times, in different platforms, in different ways that will expand this movement of validating churches in digital spaces.

And so we need to make our movements portable. The ages of vision and mission statements, I think, is behind us. Those are good, do them, it helps, but we need to start putting together language that is easy to move. It needs to move fast and easy. And so why? Because even in your fundraising, even in your growing of your team, even in your whatever kind of expansion, you will depend on people that want to live out that same movement. And so people that will fund you will fund you because they want to be a part of something. And we have to give them the language for it.

You will exhaust your friends if you're just asking for money to get your ministry going. Like that's going to be exhausted very fast. But if you have people, if you give them clarity about what you're doing, they can then join you because there's clarity on what they are doing, what their money is achieving. And so I think we need to start there: clarify what your movement is, put language to it that is simple. A ten-year-old could understand the idea of validating churches in digital spaces, yeah? So somebody young could actually be like, yeah, I want to be a part of that, right? So it's portable. Your language has to be portable. Your message has to be portable.

And then when I think of specifically fundraising, first of all it will be based on vision casting. Like you have to cast vision for something, and sometimes we don't know how to cast vision. And the ideas behind vision casting are missing a great component, which is storytelling. And so when I cast vision for something, our brains are wired for storytelling. We need to tell what is A, what is B, and how are we moving people from A to B?

The church digital has a specific goal of moving people from running alone, trying to create a church in digital spaces, to actually doing it and not alone. And so if I can communicate that hey, we're validating their visions, we're resourcing them, and we're moving them from operating alone, trying to figure things out, to actually doing it with a community of people supporting them, now you're telling a story, a story of transformation from A to B. People will connect emotionally. By the way, money moves through emotions, yeah? So all of our purchases and donations are done from an emotional standpoint. And so I need to attach a story to it.

I think there's also a lot of challenge to, um, I mean, when you say portable, it's interesting. Like I almost want to unpack that word, what that means. Like is that, um, like multiplying? Getting others to own the vision? Getting it, you know, not beyond just me? Like, you know, I know you know flat caps in here, and you, I can remember times where you know I was like hey, this is something I want to do, and flat caps like no, you don't. That goes against everything you believe, and it tells me my own words back at me. Why that's a stupid idea, you know? You know, Barbara, you eloquently describing, you know, some of the ideas better than I can, you know? Like that's an idea of portable. That's multiplying. That's bringing along. And really, like that's it. It's interesting. I was just watching a TED video. I put a TED video in one of the Discord channels with our movement leaders just recently, and it's the one, you know, I'll put it in the show notes too, but it's the one with the crazies. The guy, the three guys dancing at the concert where it's like one guy's the movement leader and he's doing whatever he wants, but nobody, nobody goes until, you know, the second guy joins him. And really, like the first guy being the leader, the movement leader, but it's really that number two guy that starts to bring everybody. Number two comes on and then number three joins number two, and when number three joins, then it's pandemonium. Like the crowd breaks out and everybody starts dancing, you know? And it's that the first guy being an idiot is one thing, but the second guy being strong enough to be an idiot with the first guy. Like in some ways, that number two is really the movement maker. The first guy's just the visionary.

And you know, so often when I talk with digital churches, it's they don't have, like it's them on their own, you know, just investing and working hard. Like, you know, talking about Mark. Mark early on connected with Andy. Mark and Mark was actually really good from day one. Like I just working with him of hey, I, this isn't going to be alone, you know? Even with me, I don't want this to be Jeffrey dot com. I want the church to be bigger and better. And let me tell you, like the team that we've got now, like this blows me away. Like there's they're doing stuff I can't do. And so but it's seeing the ideas mature beyond, and then all of a sudden like you're doing things beyond just you, which to me I think is more attractive to people more than the friends. Like if I'm just doing a bunch of stuff for me, I'm going to the friends and trying to get the nickels and dimes and twenty-five bucks a month in doing that. Um, my yeah, and my hope is by making it bigger than you, then the opportunities start to come that are bigger than that, you know?

I think God rewards the diligence of the discipleship of the multiplication of the portability of this. God moves. God is not a stale God, you know? If you look at the Old Testament, the New Testament, it's the story of God moving and growing and expanding. It's not hey, God, you know, I'm just going to stay here in the Garden of Eden. We're going to hang out here in perfectness. And so I love this. I don't use the word portable like that you do, um, but you've said it multiple times, and then now I'm like maybe I need to pick it up because I do think it describes something different than multiplication because I was thinking oh, she means multiplication. I need to get her to say multiplication, but it's like no, portability. It is different. There is multiplication is the discipleship. This is a little more than discipleship. It's a little different than discipleship. I don't know what it's for, but we can new once that all day long. I don't know that that's probably the best point for today.

So hey, listen, you are doing a learning community through the church digital, and we talked about this up in the introduction, but the church digital is doing five different learning communities this summer. One is going to be on church communications. And so why don't you take a moment here and just share with us a little bit what the learning community is going to look like and give people some detail on it?

So it's we start very similar to this type of foundational pieces that I'm talking about. So understanding who can you serve well, who you are, your own DNA as a ministry, capture your movement, give it some language. And then you can build communication plans based on that. So if there's another co that comes, another platform that starts, another TikTok that goes away, your strategy will remain. Like your vision will remain. It will just take a different shape. And so instead of building a plan that is just like okay, here's a bunch of tactics that we have to communicate, I want you to have a foundation that basically says this is who we are, this is who we speak to, and this is how much of a gap is there between us. Everything else will kind of build from that. So we'll equip you to basically know how to create your communication independent of your size, of how much you multiply versus not. Like it will just equip you to do that anytime at any stage of your ministry.

Love it. Is it more aimed at um physical churches, more at planters? I know we got a mixed bag here, but what you're, either when it's, it's still communication regardless of the principles. That's that's good stuff. We're just thinking ministry. So uh I think there is, uh, if some of the things are easier to understand if you already have something in place, um, but uh, because some of the questions like uh, you will be more in the guesstimation side of things, right? So when I'm asking you like okay, who you serving, and you're just kind of starting, you may not have a lot of data, but I'll enable you to basically say okay, I'm going to create some avenues to allow data to come to me as I reach my audience out there. So um I would say ministry. So it's specifically designed for ministries. How it's expressed, it's up to you. You can have it as a home church, as a big church, as a whatever. Flat caps asking in chat, nonprofits, uh, nonprofit ministries. I would suggest something Christ-based, you know? I think we can speak to and address. And so yeah, like I think there's opportunities to really sit down and address the communications challenges, um, you know? It's being, you know, into this with Barbara, I at a personal level I trust her intimately, you know, exquisitely. Like it's been a great relationship. Um, Barbara has challenged me. She's made me better as a leader. Um, and the organization, you know, I said this at some point like I can definitely tell you the value of Barbara because I know how much we struggled in communications and alignment and vision before, and she came on and she righted the ship, and uh, things have been flying. Um, you know, I mean, to be honest, the challenge of 2024 and beyond is you know us keeping up with some of the opportunities it's

It's we went, you know, this is the challenge. You go more narrow and you're like, "Oh, this is going to be less," but less ends up being more. And the opportunities of going narrow because now you're the big fish in the small pond and people are looking for small ponds and are looking for big ponds. Uh, Sears, Roebuck is dead. Like, you know, you go to a mall and malls are declining. Like, it's not somewhere where I can get everything. It's how do I deal with niche? And so, you know, that really, and that hurts because that goes countercultural to our physical churches. Um, but when you look at, you know, some of our friends internationally and some of the lessons they're learning in post-Christian, post-church environments, um, niche is the way to go because the buildings, to be honest, you know, in England those are their museums. Um, you know, in some of these countries they are shut down. Like, there's, I tell the stat in London, Christmas Eve 2023, more people went to bars than to church buildings. Like, that's just the reality of where some of our friends are internationally. And I believe, you know, I had breakfast with a friend of mine today. Um, you know, and I get told all the time, "Jeff, you're ahead of the curve. Jeff, you're ahead of your time." Jeff, you know, we're not there yet. And uh, I do, I do believe, you know, I think the idea of um, what we're doing now is early. Um, but it's to me, you and Mark, it was funny. We're talking about the three idiots dancing. I was idiot number one talking about digital church. And uh, and Mark Lutz, Mark Lutz was idiot number two with Lux digital church. And uh, and I literally, I remember sending him the video and telling you, "You are idiot number two." Um, and we had idiot number three and we had it all scripted out what the plan was. But it really is, you know, even telling Mark years ago when he started, "Mark, I need you to succeed so the next generation will succeed." Like, it's to me, it's not even about getting these. We're talking with a guy in Germany, um, Simon. He's been on the podcast and he's one of our movement leaders now. And he's like, um, he asked, "How many, how many digital churches are there in America?" And you know, Flat Cap was on there and Andy and they're like, "Well, we've got three over here and five over here and seven doing this and this guy on Facebook." And I was like, "Look, it's 50 plus or minus. Like, you know, there's and there's stuff going on we don't know about. Um, you know, that's not of our purview. And um, and that's exciting. That's pioneering. Pioneers get shot. Um, but it really is about how can we create a model for that next generation? How can we make these ideas, you know, Barber's language, portable so that it can be carried on and multiplied throughout? What does that vision look like so that it can be reproduced and contextualized? Because um, Mark's going to reach the gamers, but what about the non-gamers? Um, and so like, it's bigger than just what Mark is doing or even bigger than what I'm doing. And so it's been so exciting um, to really dig into that with uh, with Barbara. So check out the learning community and uh, the information is at thechurch.digitallearningcommunities. We'll put that link in the show notes as well. Thechurch.digital-learning-hyphen-communities. And um, you'll see all the little API characters and information on all five communities. Andy's doing one. I'm doing one on micro. Andy's doing asynchronous uh, metaverse with Stuart Tunami. Megan was in here in a little bit. Megan Carter is doing one on um, mental health in the church and the digital church communications with Barbara. And so yeah, it's been great.

Hey Barbara, we're wrapping up here. Any closing thoughts?

That's it, Jeff. I'm just excited for what's ahead and uh, really very, very excited that you danced first. That somebody had the chance to do it.

Yeah, the courage to do it, you know?

Yeah, well, it was uh, courage. Yeah, courage. Or I got kind of painted into the corner. Or I saw blue ocean. It's like, "Oh, let's go swim over here." And uh, there were no sharks in the blue ocean. And so I kind of swam. But uh, it definitely is fun. I've got, you know, it's, I'll show this off because, you know, Barbara was uh, actually sent this to me. I've got a mug here she sent this to me maybe nine, ten months ago last year when we first started talking. And uh, it's a custom mug, I think, but it says "The Godfather of Digital Churches." And I've kind of just kept that on my desk next to my um, my retro thechurch.digital mug. We don't have the current one, but so I just, I keep that. It's got like knickknacks and tools and crap in it. But um, yeah, listen, it's exciting. Um, as you're hanging out in Discord, if you're not on Discord, discord.thechurch.digital, come over. Um, as we're seeing the energy and engagement and meeting people and seeing real connection, real conversations in a digital community, and really starting to define what a digital discipleship community can look like. Oh my gosh, it's so exciting to even dream some of the stuff we're talking about now for the future. And by the future I mean the next three months, the next six months. Um, I believe God's going to do something great as a result of this.

So hey, we're going to land the plane. Barbara, thank you for what you do at thechurch.digital. Check out the learning community. Audience at home, uh, Miss Prisana Flap, thank you for being here on the stream with us. And everybody else, thanks for hanging out. Um, we do these occasionally on Discord. So thechurch.digital Discord. You can get more information on live podcasts and open offices and conversations and all the goofy stuff that we're doing here in the community. So come hang out with us. Open your web browser. Discord.thechurch.digital. And that'll get you there.

All right, for Barbara, this is Jeff with thechurch.digital. Thanks for hanging out with us. We'll see you next time on the show. Have a good one.