EP 332 - Questions - Is the Metaverse Dead?

Welcome to the Church Digital podcast. Through this podcast, we'll talk about the technological innovations within the church, but more than tech for tech's sake, we'll address deeper questions. Is discipleship making possible digitally? How should we approach the digital mission field? Can a biblically grounded church operate in digital space? And where does the metaverse and artificial intelligence fit into all of this? Whether you're a big or small church, the Church Digital's goal is to help churches like yours learn to be a multiplayer church digitally and physically. And now here's your host, Jeff Reed.

Welcome to the Church Digital podcast. We're doing a live stream recording here. This is episode 332. We've got Pastor Alina and Pastor Coco from VR MMO Church off screen here for just a minute. They're anxious to go. They're excited about the conversation. They're a little nervous, maybe, maybe feeling a little bit towards this, and so now they're embarrassed that I said that they were feeling a little nervous, but it's going to be a really good conversation digging into: is the metaverse dead? You know, I keep hearing rumors of its demise, yet I still see it thriving and growing. So a good conversation from really one of the premier churches operating right now in virtual reality, VR MMO Church. So looking forward to getting that conversation here in a little bit.

Heading into it though, hey, we got a conference coming up right around the corner: Digital Missionary Conference. And super, super excited about it. I literally, it's been last minute details. We are seven days and like eight hours or something away from this thing being a reality. It's kicking off Wednesday, April 2nd, 11 a.m. Eastern. And so 11 keynotes, 30-some breakouts, you know, and the breakouts keep coming in. Like seriously, still getting signups and people that want to be part of this thing. I just checked registration. We are close to 700 registered. Get this: from 73 countries. There are 73 countries represented in the registered people so far. The 700 people registered, and so super excited about this. More information you can see it there on the screen. Does anybody else have that problem? It's always wrong hand, backwards. Missionary.digital. Www.missionarydigital.com to register for that.

We got a lot of people hanging out in chat with us. Flat cap, let's go. Steve Reed, brother from another mother. Beats me, blessed. Beat me, you know, flat cap got first. Blessed day to everybody. Troy Jones, who just got a new job, excited about that, but it's also supposed to be in school right now, so should not be on this stream because, dude, go to class. Is saying hi. Um, we got Pastor D, who is always curious, and I'm curious. She's probably wanting to check out the metaverse because she is very excited about the metaverse and virtual historically. And we got flat cat busted my man Troy right now. Yes, Troy, you are supposed to be in class. Get off the stream, bro. Like, don't I do not want to get in trouble because you are ditching guitar. Ian on the other coast saying good morning, and probably some others coming on.

So as you guys are watching this, interactive, of course, in show. Okay, Troy, we're so, uh, Troy C Apocalypse. Troy's at lunch, and so it's okay for Troy to be involved because it's at lunch now. Troy, when lunch is over and you go to guitar class, stop, okay? Don't be that guy. I don't want to get like some associate principal yelling at me because you be skipping class and being a distraction because you're watching the stream now. Once you graduate in a couple weeks, you can do whatever the crap you want. I don't care, but until you graduate, till you get that diploma, dude, go to school, all right?

All right, hey, disclaimer, yes, okay. Troy is in fact going back to class. I know the rest of us were very relieved at this and excited that dude's gonna finish strong up in Pennsylvania. And so, uh, Troy update over for this one.

Hey, I'm excited about this conversation, and so let me go ahead and bring into the show. I'm going to press my magic button. Hopefully this works. Pastor Alina and Pastor Coco, how you doing, ladies? Everything okay? Awesome. And so it's very good. Well, Pastor Coco and Pastor Alina, you're all quiet like a little, little reserved. Is this the normal like metaverse, virtual reality, MMO energy level? Is it more? No, like what does energy look like for you when you're wearing the headset?

Pastor Alina: Oh, it's um, quite the opposite of this quiet, reserved self you see here. Just like, there you step into the space and immediately there are you're just like surrounded by so many people. Just the energy is insane. Sometimes because I'm a little older, it can be a bit much. Even, um, it's just a lot of excitement. Everybody's always really, um, just excited to gather and to catch up, even though most of us will see each other a few times a week. Um, that excitement to get together is always vibrant, beautiful.

And so VR MMO Church, virtual reality MMO, massive multiplayer online church, this was founded by and is still run by DJ Soto, whose well-known. Wired Magazine talked about him being the virtual reality pastor. And BBC has done stories on him. The Daily Show did a skit on him for baptizing somebody in virtual reality. And so, you know, VR MMO has really been the metaverse church kind of that has been known over the past decade or so. And recently, Pastor Alina heads up the virtual reality campus, and then Pastor Coco in the middle has pivoted and really launched an MMO church in Final Fantasy, which is different, I'm assuming, than the virtual reality church. And so I'd love to get into that a little bit.

But hey, let's meet these two, kind of heading into the conversation. Pastor Alina, maybe set us up a little bit here. Tell us a little bit about yourself and how you got connected to VR MMO.

Pastor Alina: Oh, wow, just I could take up that entire time, but I will try my best not to here. Um, I discovered the VR MMO church six years ago. Is, um, I was a flight attendant for most of my life. I became disabled about 12 or 15 years ago. Um, and my illness, my body doesn't regulate temperature, and so it's kept me confined in my home. And so I first got into VR because I've always been a gamer, and VR was this escape for me. It let me feel like I was no longer in the same, for like this little box that I lived in forever. Um, and I one of the first things I downloaded was AltSpace. Couldn't believe there was a church in there. Didn't think even that it was real. Like, we get that a lot where people don't think it's a real church. People are playing in some way. Um, but as soon as I stepped in, um, Bishop Soto was teaching. All of the people were so welcoming. Um, made me feel comfortable immediately. And then after hearing this teaching and just the full experience, I knew, I knew then and there this is my forever home. Like, I just knew it, and I knew I had to do whatever I could to make sure it not only like it stays existing but flourishes. It was an immediate passion, and then I just started serving every which way I could. And then over the years, um, I started taking seminary classes and ultimately becoming a pastor here at the church.

Awesome. And so excited we're going to get more into the VR aspects and pastoring in virtual reality and all that. But what's come out in the past, uh, Pastor Coco, two years, three years, a pivot towards not just virtual reality but into these MMO video games like Final Fantasy and Rust and Black Desert, but specifically Pastor Coco heads up the Final Fantasy campus. And so Pastor Coco, maybe tell a bit about your story and how you got connected into the church.

Pastor Coco: Well, I got connected in 2020, and we and I had joined to help with the MMO aspect. But in 2020, it was still in the experimental discovery phases. And um, I have a long background in emerging tech design, and that's actually what I do for a living. And um, so when the COVID layoffs happened and I was reexamining my existence, I'm like, I wonder if there's a church in VR. And so I Googled VR church, and there was a VR church, and I connected with DJ and wanted to volunteer for VR. And then I found out about this MMO side, and I'm like, well, my friends have been trying to convince me to play Final Fantasy, so why not? I'll volunteer for that. And, uh, yeah, and never planned on becoming a pastor. And DJ tapped me on the shoulder, and Alina can say the same thing. I was just here to help, and then DJ said you lead. So here I am.

That's awesome. Delegation is so cool, right? It's like, hey, that's you're here, take over. It's that's beautiful.

Um, hey, so let's dig in. Um, you know, it's kind of tongue in cheek: is the metaverse dead? Uh, it feels like in some circles there's not as much attention in the virtual realities there was during the initial push, and COVID brought a lot of attention to it. Um, that being said, AltSpace was really a strong push for a while. Microsoft shut that down and poured some of their energy into what is now, you know, ChatGPT and AI is kind of the tech push it feels like for a while. But the time that I'm spending in virtuality, there's still tons of people involved. There's I'm still seeing technology being worked on and software being developed, and I'm seeing churches grow and expand in the space. So it doesn't actually feel like anything is dead or changed. Uh, Pastor Alina, what's your experience? What are you guys feeling over at VR MMO? Is this thing really dead?

Pastor Alina: Oh, gosh, no, no, no, no, definitely not dead. Um, yes, there was this like spike during COVID where just there was immense growth. Um, and of course, as society opened back up and people could go out on their own, some of those people sure don't come always or as often. Um, but we continue to grow. We continue to get new people all of the time. Um, and it's we're just at the beginning. Like, this idea of we've already hit our peak and now it's dead or going away is, is we haven't really even begun in all honesty. Uh, this is without a doubt an emerging and growing platform. And, uh, yeah, so a lot of exciting things to come. So many exciting things to come.

Yeah, let's talk a little here about it because, you know, the idea of, flat cap is saying here, flat cap Dapper, where two or three are gathered in the name of Jesus, it is a church. And you know, I know flat cap's been working alongside you all and doing some and helping out in the VR side and both sides. But um, talk to us a little bit here about what church looks like in virtual reality. Like, describe. I you know, I wish you could put on headsets and get in there. It doesn't do its service, but talk to us a little bit here about what the church experience is in VR.

Pastor Alina: So, uh, first of all, it's impossible to ever explain in a way that someone who has not experienced it can't. They just can't wrap their mind around it. Um, just the VR experience itself, when you put on this little headset, um, you really do feel as if you are in the presence of others or that you are in that space if you're going and doing a VR thing that's not social. Um, the immersion is like indescribable. Again, you can't describe it. Uh, when I step into say church, uh, there are people all around. We're very excited to see each other. Um, we hug one another, and it feels like you're hugging one another. Like, whatever endorphins or is put out like in a normal hug, it is the same thing. Your body has the same response as if it were a physical experience. Um, church in VR is particularly...

Exciting, um, because you definitely, again, it's not like you're watching a stream, something that's happening. Um, like you're an observer. You are absolutely in it. Um, and uh, in VR we're able to build spaces, and we do, especially in Rec Room, uh, new worlds for every sermon. Um, we have a team that does that, so you're not just like listening to a pastor who's just speaking all this time, but you're walking through that environment that is created just for that. Um, and there's a lot of opportunity because you're not standing like on a podium with everybody out there. You're walking together, so there's a lot of opportunity to engage with people in the middle of service. So it's less, uh, you know, one person uh doing all of the sharing of God's wisdom. Um, and we do it together. There's very much a together attitude. There's like, this sometimes the pastor in the congregation can, there could be this separation or this wall. Um, where in VR, and I'm sure on the MMO side as well, it's that wall is torn down and we're doing it together. And to me, that's really exciting.

Yeah, and so you're, I know you mentioned the Rec Room a couple times. That's one of the social worlds, one of the virtual reality platforms that exist that people really come together and connect with. Rec Room is um really tied to a lot of the video game systems, and so it tends to be a little younger audience, little skew a little younger, I think. And so, but in addition to Rec Room, you're also in uh VR Chat. That's the other one, correct?

And so like, as in VR Chat, you know, DJ Stoto calls it the Wild West. I've heard him talk about that, you know, for there some level. I've talked about it being the red light district. It's kind of no parental controls, and it goes uh, you know, people are a little more free to express themselves, the good and the bad. Um, like what is what does ministry look like in in both of those spaces? You're dealing with maybe a more immature kid in in one realm, and then you're dealing with um unfiltered adults in the other. And so how do you, do you change things in between the worlds, or what's your approach maybe in both of those spaces?

That's really interesting because Rec Room and VR Chat couldn't be more opposite. Um, and Rec Room definitely has a younger crowd, but there are plenty of adults as well. It's just a, it's a for those young at heart. I love it. Um, and I'm only young at heart, not young in, you know, uh, age. Uh, and then VR Chat is like you said, it's the wild west. Um, yeah, and um, with an older crowd for the most part. And we don't really change. I don't change anything between my Rec Room experience and my VR Chat experience as in how I engage with people. Um, because that engagement should always, like um, be the same. In in Rec Room, these people are hungry in the same way that VR Chat people are. Like, they're all coming, even those different locations, they're coming for the same purpose. Like um, often they aren't comfortable or are unwelcome in a physical church. So whether they be older or younger, they're often coming from a similar like background or perspective. Um, in in VR Chat, uh, they're older and more comfortable talking, which is really cool. So in VR Chat we have uh a lot better communication um with the community. We have these community Sundays which are held in Rec Room and and VR Chat um where instead of the sermon from a pastor or teacher, uh, we take that hour to focus on building the community uh so that the community can care for itself. So it's not just a pastor care for all of the people, which is impossible. Um, but getting the community to care for itself. Um, and VR Chat, they're older, so they're they're more comfortable opening up and they often open up about things that no one would dream about bringing up in say a physical church.

Yeah, um, there's this comfort. Um, and the community is just excited to engage and help people. We talk about everyday life and the challenges and how we can live for Christ in this complicated world. Um, in this difficult world. And so from from depression to um uh standing strong in your faith when you're surrounded, say, by like a lot of damaging, there's like you said red light wild wild west. Um, how do you stand in your faith when you're surrounded by all of this that's trying to tug you away?

Yeah, pardon me. Let get rid of that. Um, and so we have similar conversations in Rec Room. It's it's just usually people are not quite as open, but they they do. Um, but not nearly quite as open to talk about things. And again, this one of my favorite things about digital ministry is the engagement that we can have with the community. The, not one-sided thing. Um, so love that.

And and you you are, I mean, you're engaging with a different type of person in virtual reality uh that than that who would go to a physical church building. Like, you know, I I kind of have this running joke. Nobody in the history of time has ever said, "I'm going to skip going to church in the building today and instead I'm going to go to church in virtual reality." Like, you know, my experience in these spaces, it's um uh atheist, agnostics, it's it's people that have walked away from the church, no exposure to to church or or God whatsoever, not even understanding what what who Jesus is as a person, what the cross symbolizes. And so it's, or like she said, not welcome in church.

Yeah, and I know, Coco, that's um that's something that that you you know highlight a lot um and and protect, you feel like you need to protect within uh VR MMO. Do you maybe want to expand a little bit and and share a little bit about that, about the people that aren't welcome in physical church?

Um, yeah, we get um, it's actually where we get the most flak. Um, when you're always talking about people getting shot, um, this is where we get the most flak is because we will let the atheists, the agnostics, the people with really difficult questions that Christians usually get offended by them asking, right? And but they don't feel safe to ask. And we'll get Muslims, we'll get Hindu, we'll get all kinds of people, LGBTQ people, and we welcome them and we give them a safe place to get to know Jesus without trying to force them to meet some kind of standard. We meet them where they are just like Jesus did, and we try to help them grow at their pace. Um, that's not something that those people get in real life church, at least from my experience with real life church.

So how, um, so I I would love to, I want I want to come back to that. And it's interesting, Axel uh says here, we we talk a lot about church hurt, uh, don't we? And you know, I know that that's that's them. Yeah, that feels, you know, I I feel that in in the metaverse space uh and can recognize that. But let's uh, I we I want to dig in a little bit before we go too far down that trail. Um, MMO, like you were, so you're doing church in virtual reality. VR church was a thing for probably a decade before you started to to swing over and and explore the MMO side. And I know there were some experiments with some things, and we landed in Final Fantasy. That's still operating today. Uh, Pastor Coco, can you maybe explain a little bit about what that experience was like where you guys tested and and a little bit about like what church actually looks like in a video game like Final Fantasy?

Yeah, we've tested in a bunch of different games. We've done GTA. Alena was a part of that. I didn't play that one. That DJ and Alena were playing it, so they can tell you more about it. But um, did Rust, and that ran for a little while, and Black Desert Online, and Final Fantasy 14, and all of them had potential. Rust had great potential, and that was doing really well. And the problem is that we can't do it all, so we have to get other people to run those different platforms. And the people that were helping with the different platforms, like Black Desert, disappeared. So it's like they just stopped coming. And um, Rust, um, we didn't have the people to keep it going. Um, so that's, I'm the last standing basically. That's how it's going.

So like, I'm I'm curious. Let's let's um, yeah, let's let's let's dig in. What does volunteering for Final Fantasy or for Rust, like what what type of skill set, what type of personality, what type of person um would would be volunteering uh for for some of these MMO games church in these games?

They're all different. Every single one is different. You cannot lift and shift from one experience to the next. So you have to play it and learn it, learn the culture just like you would, but if you're going out in a physical location to a different mission field, okay, same thing in digital. And so Rust, absolutely, completely different personality than Final Fantasy 14. That I don't know that there would be many people that like both, okay?

So so walk me through specifically because you're in Final Fantasy. Um, walk me through that. What type of person? By the way, my daughter is obsessed with Final Fantasy. Uh, she is in um, she's in Tokyo right now, and uh, she's actually tomorrow she's going to the Square Enix headquarters. That's Final Fantasy, right?

Nice.

Yeah, so so she she loves Final Fantasy. And so like, I know I know my daughter comes to mind when I think about the question. But like, what type of a personality, what type of person, like who who would you be looking for in in the in the Final Fantasy volunteering?

Well, our group um, I don't know if it's just by coincidence or not, but it's all over 20. So we don't have, we have a couple of teens that show up every now and then, but most everyone's like adult. And we're come from all different backgrounds. We've got mothers that we have stay-at-home moms. We have people that work all day and just come home to unwind in Final Fantasy. We've got a whole slew of different backgrounds coming in. And the personality that I see mostly in Final Fantasy is one that just really values community and want, and the MMO sets up, it enables that community in ways that, and I'm not, you can get community and VR and in Rec Room and stuff, but MMOs are meant for teamwork, meant for community.

Interesting. So we, yeah, and so like from from a gamer perspective, is this like I'm using words I don't even understand, but is this like a a guild where you're creating a group of friends in the community or you engaging with new people outside of of that, you're meeting in the community and and bringing them in? Like, I recognize how video game, most people would recognize how video games do allow for a community to exist. I'm curious though, because church is a different level of community, or the perception is, and and that may not exist in in video game space. How do you how do you capitalize on video game community to to be the church uh for others?

Well, each game's different, but um, let's let's talk Final Fantasy since that's which are most comfortable with. Yeah. Um, they do have guilds. They're called free companies. But we don't focus on those because the way the servers are set up and the way we get people from all over the world, our last church service had people from New Zealand, Australia, the Europe, Canada, Mexico, wow, and the United States. So since we can't, all the servers are set up regionally, so not everyone's going to be able to play together unless we travel. So we can't do free companies across servers. So we don't bother with the free company. We have one for the people that want to come over to that server and join it, but we don't focus on the free company. We just focus on um, we find our people in by putting videos on YouTube, and then they come into Discord, and we connect that way. And then we just play together. We do play sessions and we play together. We meet together on a server, but we don't meet in game. We meet from YouTube and Discord.

Okay, so so Discord asynchronous community is is really the hub. And so you're connecting with people via YouTube uh and and Discord where you're you're really developing...

The relationship and then you're strengthening the relationship by playing in game. So it's really like a shared thing between the video game YouTube and Discord. Those are kind of like the three platforms you're using. I love that, and then the virtual reality side you're utilizing Discord as well to build relationships outside of headset time. That is correct?

It is, but I would probably say it's the other way around on the VR side. I see the relationships forming in VR and then continuing in Discord. Just by nature, because you are, it really feels like you're there in person. So in a small amount of time you're talking face to face, just like we're talking face to face. We're not messaging and waiting for someone else to reply. You're just having a conversation. And so that's when most of our relationships are formed in these conversations that we're having. And then in Discord, that's how we connect with everyone else because we are one church. We're doing this together, even though we meet on different platforms. We're all in this together, and so Discord is where we connect with each other. And yes, there's lots of conversation going on in Discord across the various people from the different platforms, so it continues in Discord.

Yeah, I love the fact that even as a church you have different strategies, really using the same tools. Like, you know, the role of Discord in MMO versus VR, the role of the video game versus virtual reality. Like you're adjusting in a kind of unintentionally unpressuring way. Coco, like what's the MMO answer? And she's like, well, you know, in Final Fantasy it's this, and in Rust it would be something completely different. There's no one, you know, flat cap. Just literally put it in chat right now. It's a multi-campus. It's a multi-platform digital church, and it's not like a multi-site where it's centralized. Where, you know, I attended a session once from a US-based organization that was literally like, "What can a multi-site church learn from Walmart?" because it was all about franchising and creating that centralized feel across all the campuses. This is not a multi-site. This is more like a multi-church where you're planting something in VR, where you're planting something in Final Fantasy, or you're planting something. I would love to see a GTA church, Grand Theft Auto. Just the kind of, the Konas actually put something together, the gravity reaching somebody in that space. Like, I need to reach out to them and figure that out. But to see, to be able to do unique things, to be stylized, to connect with those specific people using specific strategies, recognizing different people operate differently. Like, that's a beautiful thing to explore.

Let me ask this question of both of you. For VR, for MMO, for Final Fantasy, whatever the context, what is the one thing you can do in your unique church expressions that cannot happen physically? What can you all do in virtual reality and Final Fantasy that cannot happen in a physical church? Pastor Lena, you want to go first? I'll put you on the spot.

Sure. One of the coolest things is that we can gather from all over the world. We're not limited to our local space. So this helps us because as a church we also feel strongly that we want people to come to their own understanding. We want to help people get to the point where they can come to their own understanding. We don't want to force anything down anyone's throats and say you must understand this all the same. And when you have a global church, you're exposed to a lot of new ideas because church in one place is very different, and understandings can be very different. And we provide this space where people are free to discover and talk about these things, and it's a great place for reevaluating. Like, you know, sometimes we grow up with ideas and that's what we've been told, and when we're limited to always that same small group of people, we don't get the opportunity to see that maybe we're mistaken in some places. And so it creates that, which I absolutely love. It's the gathering of different minds.

Yeah, Pastor Coko, does that echo for you?

Yeah, just like I was saying, our last service we had people from Spain, UK, Canada, Europe, Mexico, Australia, New Zealand. It's like, are you going to get that in a physical? Maybe if they travel there, but no, and definitely hard to get. We have conversations around what church is like in other countries and their understandings of certain scriptures that are different based on your translations of the Bible, because English is very different than German. And so we learn it, and like she said, it's like we have a broader understanding of just our stuck, for me, United States Evangelical Christian upbringing. And you don't get that in physical church. You're stuck with who's there and you're stuck with the mindsets of that local region, which is often very close-minded. So having that global community and global perspective opens up your mind to what the world actually is, what is actually going on in the world, because we're often very sheltered.

Let me pull the thread on that because I'm curious what this response is, Pastor Coko. You're talking about how Final Fantasy has a very strong culture, right? And so like, it's a unique persona. The type of people that are engaging in that globally, you're seeing reach, and people are engaging. You're talking multiple continents, multiple countries. And you know, some of the countries you're rattling off, like even Europe and America. Europe is post-Christian, and so as a result, Christianity looks different. You're talking Mexico, Hispanic, strong Catholic, that has a different kind of expression. And you're saying that countries kind of have their unique spin on church and Christianity as well. What is the—I've kind of been theorizing on something, and I would love you to say I'm wrong if I am. I've been talking about how the culture of the platform that we go into, Final Fantasy, that culture is predominant. It leads over the secondary culture, which would be the countries that we're from. Would you agree with that? Or do you feel like, you know, a Hispanic someone from Mexico, the Hispanic influence is stronger than the influence of the platform? Does the question make sense? Am I kind of clear in explaining it?

Yeah, I would say that the Final Fantasy culture wins out because it's something that we can all unite under, just like we're all supposed to be uniting under the banner of Christ. At least in Final Fantasy we're uniting under Final Fantasy 14. So we have the unity in that, but there is a little difference. And one of the reasons they don't allow cross-regional data center play as much—I mean, it's opening up, but there's still some lockdown on that—is because there are still different cultures. So like the Japan one, you can't go play on the Japan one because they have a different culture, and if anyone from the other cultures comes in there it could cause a lot of strife.

And so Square Enix is aware of that because, and so they protect that and help me out, y'all that are from Final Fantasy in the chat. What else do y'all see that's different about MMO?

Yeah, I'd love to hear. We got, looks like Bunny. At least I'm recognizing a lot of people I don't usually see in here. Bunny, L, Bunn is Axel as well. We love the community aspects. They may be around. Tonic is Tonic. You mostly adult? He was making a comment on that earlier. But we love that we've got Steve Reed. Steve's brother from another mother on my side. Truly sounds to me like Ekklesia, what Jesus meant the church to be. It's interesting. Steve's on the older side of the equation. Steve mocks me because I call him an old man. So but he's not. He's not. Yeah, he is. He's an old man, but he's young at heart. Let's say it that way. Rexy, Rexy Ronin, the cats. That's one of the ones that goes across both. Yeah, Rexy will show up at our services. Okay, so she does Final Fantasy and VR. Do you see, is that the majority? Is that a minority?

A couple people, minority towards that. What, is there, me, you're mentioning like GTA as a possibility, and just selfishly I just really want to see that happen. But like, is there a road map for what's next? Or you know, a passion area to explore next, even at an individual level? Like, what are you all thinking about where VR MMO is going next?

Well, our plans are to continue to plant. That's as we all have, at least amongst the leaders, we all have that apostolic gifting. And so we're going to always want to plant. But as you know, we're working on the multiplication aspect, so it can't just be me and DJ and Elina that are doing it. And so we have to raise up the leaders to go do that. And DJ's got plans that he's working out in his brain that he's always working on something, and he's not ready to share those yet, but he's working.

Yeah, it's fun to see the wheels spinning in his head. But I would, you know, I love the idea of having a foundation in place and not rushing into doing something before you have the structure in place to manage it. You know, so often in physical church it's like, okay, we got to launch this campus, we got to launch this church. Let's burn the ships and get there. And you know, by the time you actually get it launched, you're fried and you don't even have the stability to maintain it. And that's one of the things that, yeah, and but you know, you all kind of circling the wagons up here for a stretch and focusing on a good healthy culture, multiplying leadership development, and being able to create a healthy foundation to be able to manage where you're going. I just, I see that moving very well for you in the weeks and the months and the years to come to be able to be healthy as you're growing and multiplying towards that.

Well, I know one of the things that we had talked about earlier was kind of the church hurt, towards that. And you know, I've seen that. I don't even want to call out in this conversation. Like, I've seen that in my interactions in virtual reality and in some of the video conversations that even Coko, Pastor Coko, you and I have had. What is it like to pastor, to shepherd that people that are struggling with some of this church hurt or pain or addiction or depression? Like, there's a lot of darkness in these areas that you're in. What is it like to pastor and shepherd people in these spaces? Want to go first? May I? Go ahead.

Pastor Coko, do you see a lot of? We do see a lot of the dark. Honestly, I don't think that a lot of people see in physical. We see a lot of dark, and we see a lot of the byproducts of parents letting digital devices raise their children. We see a lot of, yeah, that I don't really want to go into details, but yeah, we do see a lot of that dark. And we don't have all the answers because we're still like realizing as we go and connecting dots as we go. Oh, I think this is the issue, and so now how do we deal with that? We're still figuring it out. Prayers is definitely something that's needed. We have a lot of spiritual warfare going on, a lot of dark. And so yeah, we need prayers and light and acknowledging because that's another thing that I've experienced with physical church.

Churches is that they will not acknowledge your pain. They will minimize it. And so what we try to do is acknowledge yes, this is an issue. Yes, this hurts. And here's what you've been taught. Here's the truth.

Yeah, um, Elena, did you want to—oh, I just, um, so like you said, there's a lot of dark. Um, there is a lot of dark, but I also believe there's a lot of dark in the physical church as well. It's just, yeah, there is, not visible, because we in the physical church, we're taught to come best self forward, like masks. You get the mask. You get in trouble. You're going to embarrass me now because we go to church and you did this. And how's it gonna look? Where? And you're gonna get kicked out. Kicked out, yeah, right? There's this fear. Even if a family member does something, you know, um, and so here, it's it's opposite. Like we try our best to draw that out of people instead of trying to hide it. We try and see it, because you can't address a thing if you're not addressing the thing. If you're hiding the thing, you're never going to get past it. And so we throughout MMO and VR, uh, really encourage honesty. We want people to come as they are. Don't hide yourself. We want to see you. We want to know you, not some you you think we want you to be. But you, um, and it's very exciting to be as because I have a very strong Shepherd side. And so to what countless times, what an honor people have opened up to me in ways that they don't open up with their own family or their close relationships. Um, I I still have someone, uh, Melody, who I met six years ago. Um, she had broken her leg and she had posted in Discord asking for prayer. And so of course I I was praying for her. I reached out to her, try you know to help him whatever way I can. Um, she was uh dealing with an earlier trauma who left her unable to speak. Like, like she just totally shut down, closed off, and didn't speak, not even with her family. Like, did not speak for years. And um, even though a few years ago she kind of uh stopped coming to VR MMO church, uh, not because of anything about us, but you know, life transitions and things change, and she she um moved on to different things. But she and I never lost contact. And she she about a year ago wanted to meet me in VR, and I'm like, absolutely, let's go do this. And when we spawned in, she just started talking to me, and I had never heard her voice. Um, and she shared with me that I am the second person that she feels comfortable enough—because there's still, it wasn't just from nothing to talking to everyone. There was a a trust barrier. And the fact that she was comfortable speaking to me is such an incredible honor. And so when we get the opportunity, I'm sorry, it's reminding me of a church adventure, Alexa, this Smith. Um, sorry. Um, so uh, just like incredible. I cannot begin to describe it. Just wow, that we have the opportunity to to serve people in this way.

Yeah, it's pretty special. It's it's it's ironic that you you deal with people at avatar, with in avatar form, right? And um, you know, the avatar form is is when people are the most real. And and the people that you know are walking around in normal clothes and physical space, you know, you you said the word masks. I think Pastor Coco said it initially, but you're they're they're guilty or they can be guilty of of hiding behind masks and and putting up fronts. Um, and presenting you know, the the Instagram lifestyle that is not as perfect as as it is once you drill in. And not that it needs to be perfect. We're we're not we're not judging them for having issues as much as questioning why they feel like they have to put up those fronts and to to put up those walls to prevent it. And I I just I love the I I love the opportunity that that you all have to to shine the light in the darkness, you know? We I talk about this, and this is one of the things with the church digital. We're going to be digging in a lot to over the course of the year. Like and and you all with your unique environments of uh Final Fantasy and and VR, like you're you're exemplifying this. We are doing ministry in digital, uh, in virtual reality. We are doing in video games. We're doing ministry in addictive spaces. People can get addicted to virtual reality. People get addicted to the to life of the games that we're in. We're recruiting volunteers that are doing ministry that will do ministry inside these addictive spaces. And number three, um, we are serving people that are addicted to the spaces they're in or are very quick to highlight other addictive behaviors and and suicide and and depression. Like it's very easy for people to express these extreme level situations. I don't know that it's a higher percentage. I used to think it was a higher percentage in in digital and virtual. I I don't believe that anymore. I just think people are more forthcoming in in some of these environments. It's it's easier for for people to really express what's what's in their heart as opposed to hiding behind those masks. And and you know, trying to help you as both of you as as pastors manage these situations. But you know, one of the things that that I really respect about you two in conversations has been, hey, I can't I I can't manage this all entirely on myself. Like we need to figure out how to reproduce and replicate the the pastor mindset, especially now as you're talking about planting new churches and new ministries and multiplying out. Like it's it's important for us to to recognize, hey, we need to start to equip others on on how to handle these really uh difficult situations. I um I would love to maybe just some of the challenges or opportunities. I I know you're you're literally smacking the middle of this, and and I don't want to put you on the spot, but as as you've been looking at at challenging people to to step up pastorally, embracing a a shepherd heart, like what what are some opportunities or challenges that that you are you two are feeling about recruiting and maybe starting to develop some of these people? Are are you okay addressing that? Alina, do you maybe want to start that off?

Sure. Um, so I think challenge number one is um it's funny because people seem to be so much more open and willing in a virtual or digital space. Um, but that still doesn't um the unease or lack of confidence and self uh is still very much there. And so I think that one of the biggest challenges is that people, even though we we we try and cultivate this um we're in this together thing, like all of us playing you know one part of the the the one body, um each their own part of this one body, and it's collective. Um, the ministry should be done together. Um, still people tend to not value themselves. Not they just they don't have the self-confidence to realize that they can do these things too. And so sometimes that's a long journey, like a long journey, just to get them from from you know coming into the doors to being confident enough to pursue uh these type roles in the church. Um, and I think that's the the the biggest hurdle to be honest. And time. Uh, it takes a lot of time uh to lead the church. And and uh it's difficult. People have families and they have to make a living. Uh, we don't have the financial support to pay our pastors um you know living wages at this moment. And that those two things are our biggest challenge, I think.

Yeah, um, Alena has the pastoral gift. She's a shepherd. I'm not. I'm an apostle. I want to forge ahead, and I don't care if you come with me or not. I'm going. So that's my problem. That's um, Pastor Coco, you, yeah, I I echo that 100%. But no, keep going, please.

Um, so I'm learning um how do I um because that is part of the apostle gift is to teach others how to do this. Um, the biggest challenges that I'm seeing is we've got a lot of people like Alina said who don't realize the gifting and the calling on their life and that they can actually make a difference. I was there once. I was, it's like when you were having that women's discussion the other day, it's like I was told I couldn't. So we have to undo those teachings, those false teachings that yeah, you don't matter, that it's only the pastors that can do this. No, it's everybody. We have to retrain people into seeing that we're all in this together. It's not just pastors. It's not just specific people that were called. Um, and so I've been working on that on my side on the Final Fantasy side because we do our teachings differently in uh the platforms. Sure. And yeah, so it's it's interesting.

I want to come back to the to the women thing. Tonic says here, uh, what I like most about this group is that they've been supportive of me in my fresh start with God ever since first joining them. They've given me all the resources to keep me on on his path. And what a what what what what a powerful testimony. How long, like what can you tell me just quick snapshot of of Tonic's story here? How long has he he or she been connected with you? When did you join, Tonic? It's been at least nine months. Um, it's been a while. Um, yeah, just fresh start. And you can find his testimony um yeah on our YouTube. But here, here's, I don't want to put his words in in his mouth. I love that. Um, Bunny, Al, the community help me uh to reinvigorate my walk with God. Pastor Coco and and the new FM friends I met in the F Final Fantasy 14 side uh encouraged me to take better steps towards healing. Um, yeah, yeah, and I've I've seen significant growth in both of them and and in all of the people that um are getting engaged are seeing engaging God, engaging the word, not engaged as in getting married. Community, yeah, in community and in the like services. And yeah, Tonic says about nine months. Tonic says about nine months. So so so that's good. Um, yeah, I mean we we talk about this all the time. Doing something different bunny, Bunny's been about a year. So I I love this. Doing something different allows us to reach someone different. And and and I'm going to Tonic, bunny, like I'm going to right now. I'm talking to you, yes or no? Um, would you be involved at a physical church if you did not get involved in in VR MMO? I don't want to put words in your mouth. Go ahead and type it in chat if you're available. Would you be involved at a physical church? Yes or no? Um, and I'll put it on the screen when I see it come up. But time and time again we see that people who um by doing something different, like church in a video game, like church in virtual reality, yeah, that is a radical concept that makes no sense to the average physical church attender. Well, here in America, one out of four are still uh attending a physical church. That number is decreasing. And so to do something to reach different people, to reach people that are not coming to the buildings we have, we have to do something different. And these two ladies are are doing a phenomenal job in their in their context of of reaching, engaging, evangelizing, shepherding, and discipling people um in in these platforms. Now, one of the things that it was interesting, I did not, and I publicly say this, I didn't realize uh until um this, it's interesting. B, burn, uh, Bunny says here, uh, she would have attended a physical church, but online just works better for me. And that's great. I mean, whether it it works better or whether it was an isolation, what's important for me is you are in the word. You're connected with somebody who's pastorally shepherding and caring and discipling and and challenging you, which which I know is is happening here on these two. But I did not intentionally, you know, we did the the women's thing last week and had four women. I did not intentionally the next week book two more ladies uh to come on and do this. It just organically happened. It didn't even occur to me to this morning when I realized, oh, I got a stream this afternoon. Oh, I've got these two ladies. Oh, I've got a up with questions. Do

I ask the question about women's in ministry and I was like, but I really, we kind of hashed that last time and it was like, I, um, I'm gonna just I'll be blunt. I remember one of the conversations that somebody said last week was, "Jeff, I longed to be on the show interviewed not about women's ministry about what I'm actually doing in ministry." And so like, I didn't want to like say anything because I'm like, I don't want to be that guy, because she's not wrong. We need to do that. But since Pastor Coco brought it up and you know made it public, um, do what tension do you all feel in the metaverse centered around you being women pastors? You know, last week we had um, uh, Pastor Susie's wife Amanda on, Amanda Souza. You know, and she's talking about as a streamer she felt a lot of that tension. You know, uh, you talked about, Hoka, Pastor Coco, how you know you were trained that it wasn't that and you're kind of reprogramming and relearning, unlearning and relearning some things in your role, which echoed a lot of the things that were um last time. Do do you feel that from the average attender in virtual reality? Do you get trolled by people in virtual reality that are slamming like Bible verses out of context in Final Fantasy or in VR? Like, what what is the perception of the average person in in your unique uh environments towards towards you being women pastors who want to go first? Yeah, I saw that she got really excited. Go for it, Ela.

So average person, it is not a problem. Average person, people don't even consider it as it doesn't cross their mind. But we absolutely get trolls. People who find out that we are teaching and we are female um who come specifically just to try and disrupt it. Um, probably the most significant one, and this and this happened, it was a group of people um who came. It was like their mission. They would come week after week after week to cause problems and they would have this recording that was just playing on a loop that would uh, they came into the space and it would say, "You are a Jezebel. Women are not allowed to preach," and it just was on this loop. And so you know, we end up needing to kick them from the space and then they would come back and this would happen over and over, kick them from the space. Hmm, I don't know. They gave up eventually. I haven't seen them in a long time. I think it's a seasonal missional trip. So just wait till spring break. Seasonal? Yeah, so usually that's funny. Go, Coco, or go, I don't know what. Oh yes, so normally it's like a one person. Normally it's not this a group format that um in this case. Normally it's one person um, they in my experience, they often wait till after service and then come and I just have a question for you and that question is, do you know you're not supposed to be teaching? Um, and so the and you know, we'll have a quick discussion. They usually leave and don't come back because you know, it's they aren't going to convince me that I shouldn't be sharing Christ with the world. But but they try. Um, but the people who come usually don't even think one way or another about it. It's only the trolls who um, and again, occasionally there'll be just people who don't what to expect. They come in, you're female, they ask you a question. You know, they ask you after and when you guys agree to disagree, they they go elsewhere to find another place where a male will. Yeah, again, we're getting a different group of people because we get the ones that aren't accepted at church and that didn't grow up in church and so they didn't get taught that um, so and then on the Final Fantasy side, I had to turn off my DMs um, you can't DM me unless you're my friend and cuz I would get people DMing me saying, "Really? You're not?" Wow, that uh, they don't believe. Yeah, and it's really frustrating because they would in the same paragraph say, "I don't believe in women pastors. Are you married? I'm such and such age and I'm not married." It's like, I theologically don't agree with anything you're doing, but are you single? Who are you? See now? Yes. Past my DMs are turned off. Don't take it personally if you can't get through to me. That's that's funny.

Pastor D, we're gonna have a conversation on this soon. We'll bring you on the show. Um, yeah, it is. Um, I I do, you know, I my heart goes out. I I don't, I don't know. I I I I had a conversation today with some of some of the team like, how do we, how do we handle this? How do we address the women in in ministry? Like, how do we, how can we support more than we already are? And you know, how do how do we strengthen this and and shield and protect or or fight? Like, what what's the stance? And so this is what what these two women are doing are are phenomenal and you, it's it's interesting. Some of I I I made a conversation in in talking about like, sorry, let me back up. I made this observation today that the the women that I have in leadership of the church digital are the ones that bust my butt the most. Like, they're the ones that call my crap, that tell me, and literally I was in a conversation with Stacy and and and I made some comment just off the cuff, not just you know, something I would say all the time and I've said twenty times this year, and uh and Stacy's like, "Okay, Jeff, can I can I say something in response?" And I was like, "Yeah." She says, "Do you realize how racist that comment was?" And I was like, "Actually, no, I don't. Can you educate me?" And and she explained to me what that, what her vantage point was, and I was like, "Oh crap, that was not what I meant at all." I I made that comment because of something thirty years ago in a book that I read and it like had nothing to do, and she's like, "Was that book written by a white man?" And I said, "Actually, yes, it was," and it's been quoted by hundreds of other white men business leaders over the years. And so you know, we are ingrained, we're brought up, we're trained in this, and and New Times doing something different is um is is necessary. You know, uh, Dr. or Pastor D here is talking about recognizing that Apostolic gift wherever it is in in in men and women. I I want to share some love here as we're wrapping up. O Oasis Church VR, so I'm assuming this is a VR tiger. Alina was the Jedi World Builder in alt space VR who showed me the ropes when I first got started. And so um, that's awesome, man. You you really sparked something in in him. He actually VR tiger built the uh the world I just saw it today for the first time, built the world that we doing the uh metaverse or the uh yeah, the metaverse conference, the digital missionary conference. He built the world that we're going to be doing the conference in. So excited about that. Uh, David says, "I'm an evangelist um not being uh attending not attending to a real church and I'd love to go to VR church no matter who's preaching." And so uh, yeah, there I know there's a rotation that that comes around. There was uh, let me get Tonic. Actually added a response back here uh and so the question I asked Tonic directly was um, "If you were not at VRMMO, would you be attending uh a physical church?" "No, no, it was his response. Not a year ago, God reached me where I was online through VRMMO church. Now that I've grown a little, I'm only now able to start looking for a physical church. We'll see what God has in store." And and yeah, that's a great answer. You know, and there's a reason we do Saturdays, not Sundays, to free up people the ability. Okay, yeah, interesting. Do you, is there a, you know, do you have a trend or one-off where people will connect? Are are you helping give people courage to engage on Sunday? Like, are you seeing that happen uh through it or is that something you're striving to do uh, Pastor Coco? It's not my main goal. My main goal is to disciple people and get them closer to Jesus and to step into their callings and whatever the Holy Spirit leads them to do is what I want them to do. Yeah, and I don't care whether they go physical or digital. It's uh, it's the Holy Spirit's uh job to convict. It's God's job to judge. Yeah, your job to love. And so and it's their job to go wherever he sends them. And if he sends them digital, then go digital. Um, there's a lot of people who can't find a safe church in their local community. So I'd love this, this has been um, go ahead, go ahead, go, go, go. Oh, I was just going to mention Zeke, who came and served alongside us for years um and he's recently uh stepped away to go to a physical church, which we were so excited that he finally found because over the years he's wanted to go, but he couldn't find one that that's was right for him. And five years later, he found this particular church that really serves him well um and I'm just so excited that meant that he stepped back from volunteering um, I still see him from time to time uh but I'm just as excited if I lead you to a place where you're supposed to be or if this is where you're supposed to be, or as long as you are going where God is leading you, that excites me, even if it is away from us. Absolutely, yeah, sad but still I'm happy being excited. Well said. And you know, and if God uses you to to help people reconnect with with a physical ministry, I mean, that's a that's a kingdom win. If God uses you to to help plant another church in virtual reality or or MMO or I mean, that's that's a win. Um, if if God helps, you know, you restore marriages, that's a win. You know, and and uh, your friend Axa agreeing here, well said. Uh, Pastor D, are you interested in pl planting across platforms? Yeah, we we had talked about that um, I mean, you got a couple Apostolic women here that that are ready to go. The the biggest issue is is really helping or finding leaders to kind of come alongside. I'm not putting words in your mouth, that that was kind of the the big challenge. Yeah, was that uh, he enables uh also from VRMMO or no? I'm sorry, from Oasis coming in, man, we're we're getting the VR crowd uh coming on, coming on for for this this stream. Go where God is is leading you. Rexy, Rex's with you, and she's even asking, I'm assuming she with the the purple cat, sorry, but uh, why not uh expand to World of Warcraft? Uh, are you volunteering, Rexie? Ah, I'm I'm just saying um, I'd be I'd be interested. That's the issue. I actually, it's a fun story. I was I was on a plane flight a while back and um ended up striking up a conversation with a couple of the women who were sitting next to me and they were devs for Blizzard. Blizzard is World of Warcraft, right? Am I getting the company right? Yeah, and so uh, actually, hey, Resi's owning it. Rex says, "Yeah, Rexy says yes, she she's volunteering." So follow up on that on Discord. But um, I was having a I'm pretty sure Blizzard, that was whatever company did World of Warcraft. I'm pretty sure Blizzard. But they were devs for for Blizzard and they had worked on World of Warcraft. And like, what do you do? And I'm like, "Oh, yeah, I I I know World of Warcraft. I am not the face of somebody who should look like World of Warcraft." And so they were like, "How do you know that?" And I, "Oh, yeah, we work with organizations that plant churches and video games and whatever." And they like, their heads were exploding. "You're doing what in where? How does that work?" And and like, and they were they were so excited. I literally, I've got their their phone number. I gave I gave their um their Discord to my kids because they were the, they were like, "Oh, we'd to you know talk with your kids about whatever." And anyway, it's fun things. All right, hey, this has been been a great stream. Uh, we went a little longer then, but just love the conversation at hand and a lot of engagement. And so appreciate the work that you all are doing in in VR and MMO. It doesn't sound like the metaverse is dead, not yet anyway. But uh, we're going to we're going to keep plugging away and seeing what God's doing uh in in the space to come. But as we're as we're landing the plane uh here uh in any closing thoughts, uh, Pastor Lena, you want to go first? Oh.

You um, as you said, it doesn't seem like the metaverse is dead, not yet anyway. Um, it just sparked to mind, um, how my passion lies with quality and not numbers. So if I can serve a few people really well, leading to action and life change um with a few people, uh, versus just standing up there talking and, you know what, with many people, um, I would choose the few people who are making real life changes um any day, every day. Um, and so I'm, I'm happy. I'm happy with where we are. Like, like it would be difficult with more people, of course, getting that support of other people stepping up into leadership, then that is, you know, would be possible. But um, as we stand today, where we are is where we're supposed to be. Like, um, I believe, you know, God is sending us some really interesting um, uh, test or uh, you know, refinement period for us. Um, Coco, Pastor Coco, you and I were talking about, uh, there's this sense that there are these things that we must handle well um to go on, whether that means new platforms or growth or some wonderful uh change in the church, uh, but we've got to, we've got to handle where we are well first. Um, and so I'm just very happy with where we are is is uh what I wanted to say, and it's been amazing opportunity that I never in my wildest dreams could have ever imagined, really. Seriously, yeah. I love how, yeah, I mean, we we kind of glossed it over, but it extended your your ministry career. You've got the health issues, unable to to leave the the house much, in in leaning into virtual reality, I mean, really just opened up a a world of ministry opportunities as a result. And so love that that opportunity that that you've had to to reach and disciple people in the unique space. And so Pastor Coco, on your side, any any closing thoughts? Um, you can make a difference. It doesn't matter what you've been taught, what you've been told, you can make a difference. And you're called to make a difference. And God will empower you to do what you've been called to do. Yeah, um, and for those of you that are wanting to get into ministry in the digital space, another thing that um we didn't, that came up while you were talking, uh, that I wanted to point out was in the digital space, which is different than physical space in that you've got a lot of people in with trauma everywhere. But the ones that are not going to physical church and can only feel safe in digital spaces is because there is a barrier between them and the other human. And so that barrier makes people feel safe because they don't have the fear of somebody physically attacking them for whatever reason. And so I feel that, because I have trauma too, and I feel that safety when there is a physical barrier between me and other people. Yes, I do still talk to real people in their real life, but um, that barrier is a sense of safety for people who've been through trauma and do not feel safe going to a pastor, which is mostly going to be a male pastor IRL, especially if they're female and they've been traumatized by men. They don't feel safe, right, going to a pastor with in a private meeting with a pastor alone physically, but you can digitally. And we also need more women to help those women. So yeah, I mean, top to bottom on on all that, you know, there there's a level of, almost we we're saying relearn, uh, but there there's a little bit of, and I'm going to use a buzz word, there's a little bit of deconstruction that that's involved. And and and I don't mean um deconstructing faith because I I don't know that I'm I'm talking about reimagining who God is or anything to that. God's the same yesterday, today, and forever. What we could have been taught along, I mean, what we're, what what I'm actually suggesting is, you know, examine the the practices that you are operating under, and are are they biblical or are they extra biblical? Are they scripture or is it outside of scripture? And um, and by by the way, what you should be listening to is is the Holy Spirit uh in that God does speak through experiences. God does speak through through the past. God speaks through scripture. God speaks to to people around you. And so um, be open to um maybe deconstructing some of these things and and and look and seeing, you know, Henry Blackaby said this back in 1976. This this quote's actually older than I am. Uh, look and see where God is moving and uh and join him in in his work. Uh, and then he said something to the extent of, if everyone set aside their selfish ambition and vain conceit and joined where where God is moving, the world would be changed forever. And so God is is moving. That was actually a very profound quote. I just I say that all the time. But if if we would actually set aside some of our extra biblical preferences and seeing, hey, by doing some things digitally and virtually and MMO and all this stuff, like we can reach people that are church hurt, that are asking questions and be comfortable with hard questions that we have to work through. Um, like that's what a great challenge for us as as people of God to maybe embrace the MMO, to embrace the virtuality, embrace this metaverse as the mission field that it really is. And so yeah, uh, you know, uh, VR Tiger, my quote drop, yeah. Thank you. I'm done. Uh, give credit to uh um, what was it? Experiencing God, Henry Blackaby. That's all Henry Blackaby. But we're done, you know, an old an old white man. And actually, I wrote a I wrote a blog um I, it interesting, it was Henry Blackaby, Henry Blackaby's view of the metaverse. Henry Blackaby died before the metaverse actually came about, but looking at Experiencing God, his view of how like the metaverse could work in that was incredible. Uh, and so let's do this. Somebody call Rexy and get Rexy Ronin started on World of Warcraft Church uh because I I want to interview Rexy uh uh like sometime in the next twelve months and get update with what's going on at at WoW Church and uh you know Susie will probably going to get involved in that too. But we're going to land the plane. So uh, Pastor Coco, Pastor Alina, thank you for jumping on this stream. Uh, love it. I wish we could keep going, but I gotta go. Uh, so we're going to land the plane for Pastor Coco, for Pastor Alina. This is Jeff with the Church Digital. Thanks for hanging out with us. We see you next time on the show. You have a good one.