EP340 - Jeff & Jose de Urquidi Discuss Learnings from Catholic Digital Missionaries

All right. Hey, welcome everybody to the Church Digital podcast. We are chilling out, man. It's a chill vibe this Tuesday. It was a holiday here in America. Memorial Day, Memorial Day, Memorial Day. And I was actually out of town for a wedding hanging out with family up in northern Florida where there was no internet.

And so, um, God bless like people that live in very rural areas that do not have internet or a cell phone. I like, I just I don't understand that mindset.

My, you know, I'm all for like being present. I'm horrible at it, but I'm all for it. But I just I don't get the real nature of things in 2025.

But that's my bag. It's not yours. Hey, so we're hanging out here with the TCD podcast. Last week was the town hall meeting. A lot of energy. A lot of really cool things coming up with the Church Digital. We heard from you. Check out the results of the surveys at churchdigital/poll. The churchdigital/poll. But we are really kind of chilling out here in between town hall and the new season that's kicking off next week.

We're going to be doing a season on equipping partners and empowering tools. And so we're going to be digging into a lot of the software, a lot of the tools, and honestly a lot of ministries that are out there that are wanting to support digital missionaries like you. And so it's going to be a very practical summer as we're getting into the weeds, so to speak. Actually, I was told by my South African friends we are not allowed to say phrases like "in the weeds" because in South Africa that literally means smoking pot. Not implied like it would be here in America, but it literally means I'm going out back to smoke a doobie.

And so I said that phrase to our ministry partners over at Project Exodus and dude shot me a sideways look like it was the evil eye. I was like, what did I do? You know, I'm embarrassing myself enough without all these cultural differences. And yeah, sure enough, I just stepped in that thing.

And so it's good stuff. And so but as we're heading into it, we've got some of our friends hanging out with us today. We've got Steve Reid. Steve Reed's hanging in here, flat cap as well. But I tell you what, I'm looking forward to this conversation.

As part of the first Digital Missionary Conference, I heard echoes in the wind, almost like a whisper. Hey Jeff, did you know the Catholic Church is doing something with digital missionaries?

And my response was no. No, I did not know the Catholic Church was doing something with digital missionaries. And sure enough, I got introduced. Josh Packard has been working with the guest that I have in this conversation today, Jose Drokitty, for I don't know a season. And we'll get into it more, but really started to discover I don't know the Catholic version of Jeff Reed over on that side, the guy that's been helping the Catholic Church exploring and experimenting with digital missionaries in that space or one of the people that's been doing that. And so, um, jumped on a couple Zoom calls, Google Meet calls. We almost met together in physical space. I was in Dallas where he lives for a stretch and we just could not get the schedules to align. But I told him, "Hey, let's do a stream." And definitely want to do a podcast recording with you to share some of these ideas about what the Catholic Church is doing and what they're learning in the space moving forward.

And so, ladies and gentlemen, for the conversation, let me bring in Jose. Jose, how are you, my friend?

Doing good, Jeff. Thank you for having me over. And yes, hi. I don't know if Josh Packard is listening, but you're doing a great job at Future of Faith. Thank you for everything, Josh.

Yeah, I doubt Josh is listening. I think Josh is a little above my pay grade, but no, it's we were blown away. Josh was interviewed as part of our conference, Digital Missionary Conference, and it just was an incredible section. One of our digital pastors, one of the digital church planters, name's Josh or Dr. John Harris, Dr. John. And he is obsessed with Josh Packard. And so bringing the two of them together, it was fanboy 101. It was really a lot of fun. But um so let me ask this question because I am way out of my league here and like I know Flat Cap and Steve are both asking like they want to learn from this. So you know let's just kick it right off. The Catholic Church is doing stuff with digital missionaries. Like drop some education here. What are you guys up to? Where can we start?

Well, first of all, let's say there's two different ways to approach what you just said, right? Because since the internet began, right, social media, of course, Catholics have been doing stuff. You know, the thing, let's say the difference right now is that for some years now, let's say institutional church, right, is recognizing what these people were doing behind a platform, behind an account and whatever, YouTube or Instagram, Instagram, TikTok or whatever, right? So that's the phase that we're in. But of course, since the beginning of internet, since MySpace and ICQ and all the different things that existed before the social media that we know, ICQ, wow, that was a throwback. Thank you. Did you hear that when I said ICQ, did you hear that very peculiar messaging sound in your head?

I did. I won't try to mimic it, but well, we all heard it. If you're old enough, if you know.

Exactly, exactly, exactly. So the thing is, of course, there's always been people trying to evangelize online and form and well accompany others, say, to the church online. That has been going on for a while. Some of them have been calling themselves whatever, Catholic content creators, Catholic evangelizers, online evangelizers, some even digital missionaries for almost a decade now.

But the thing that we have right now is the institutional church. And with that I mean the structure, you know, we're a very hierarchical church, a very hierarchical structure. Yes, the Vatican, but also every diocese, like which is almost always a city or a couple of cities or a region, right? A bishop, which is a successor of the apostles, and it's like very hierarchic in a lot of senses. So that part of the church has been opening, let's say, eyes for the last maybe well a bit more than a couple years, several years now, trying to see what's happening there with people who are doing this because they feel it's their calling, who are reaching people that the institutional church can't reach, right? And also who are there trying out, experimenting at different ways of getting Christ out there and well through his love and mercy, heal everyone who's out there in what we call the existential peripheries of the internet that they might be suffering or just searching for meaning, for purpose, for love, for truth, for so many things that they can't find and they're just doom scrolling or addicted or whatever. Well, we have to be there and the church is recognizing we have been there. Now we have to recognize them and well make them part, like let's say, of the official structure without taking out their let's say independency and without trying to control them, et cetera, et cetera. And I could talk hours about that, but well, you know, just that's the phase that we are in right now as a Catholic church.

Definitely. So, you know, there's a lot that I want to dig into to follow up on, but let's back up. You've got a new boss. The previous, you know, Pope Francis passed away maybe a month ago at this point. It feels like it's been a little while. And you got an American now, Pope Leo. Yeah, I know Pope Francis was a little more comfortable in digital and that's where you seem to get more institutional movements forward. Is the new person vibing as well or what is what does the maybe the digital look like in the new organization?

Well, two things. Um, well, several things, but let's say starting with two. Francis understood the power of gestures, the power of being out there, being the good Samaritan out there. He loved that parable and asked us digital missionaries so much to try to be that good Samaritan online and so many things that he told us, let's say, or invited us to be. But Francis, he didn't own a cell phone before becoming pope, right?

No kidding. He was 88 when he died, right?

Wow. And he was the Jesuit for 12 years. So he was pretty old when he got there, right?

So now Pope Leo the 14th, Robert Prevost was his name. He owns an iPhone, right? He has an Apple Watch. He plays Wordle. He's on WhatsApp, he's on Gmail, he's like, and so it's a very different mindset, let's say, just having that. So yes, Pope Francis knew about the gestures and the reality, but he also admitted that he didn't understand much about the digital culture and that's why he started relying a lot on people around him. And I can tell a lot of stories about that. But one thing right now that's really cool about our current pope, right, is that he's a missionary, as you know, or as you, I don't know if anyone listening knows, like yes, he was born in Chicago, but he was a missionary in Peru, right? He spent a couple decades in Peru. He has a Peruvian passport, right? So he became a bishop and was ordained there and was sent there in Peru because that's where he was a missionary, right? And we're talking about digital missionaries, right? We're talking about the online world. He's a missionary. He has a missionary heart. And before that, he was in charge, we call it the superior general, right? Of his religious order, the Augustinians, who had been around for almost a thousand years, right? And he traveled everywhere in the world where there was a monastery of Augustinians, right? So he knows the realities all over the world, the issues. He has been, yeah, he's very much into all the realities in the world. And also, last year during October, if you recall, Jeff, I spent a month at the Vatican again during the synod on synodality. Well, Cardinal Prevost, who was Pope's name, right, he was on the same table as I. That's for a couple weeks. So we shared a table, and that means Monday till Saturday, since the morning, which means we started prayer and everything in the morning. We started each session like around 8:45 after prayer and everything in the morning. Sometimes we had mass, sometimes it was just different prayers. And then all the way till 7:30 p.m. So that's Monday till Saturday, right? Two weeks I was in the same table. Of course, it was 10 of us in the table, people from all over the world. Our particular table was the language was English, but we had Africans, Asians, well, I was the only one from a Latin American country. We had Europeans, right? We had people from all over. And well, as you can imagine, I always brought up and my agenda, let's say, was trying to put the online, the digital mission front and center because in my mind and so many others, we thought it was or we think it was a response to

What Francis Francis was invited us to be a church that goes out of itself, that goes forth where people are at, right? So people are at right now online. Well, that's where we need to be. And who goes there? Missionaries, et cetera.

So I talked a lot about that in my table, and Pope—well, then now Pope was there, right? And let's say that we talked a lot about these sort of things. I was in Rome. I came just a week ago from Rome, and I asked—I still can't tell details, cannot tell details of what he said. Let's say of what was said inside, supposed to be chatam rule. So now it doesn't work if I had said—if I hadn't said it was I was with—I could tell someone in the in the table now that you said. I can't really say, but let's say he's supportive 100% of the online work that we're doing, that we're trying to do, that so many thousands and thousands of Catholics are trying to do online to introduce people to Christ, basically to his love, to his mercy, and walk with them towards the truth. That's that's what we're doing, right? Online. So we're just—it's not a month, we're just three weeks into the pontificate of Pope Leo. He's a very different, uh, kind of, let's say, personality, character, way of doing things than Pope Francis.

He takes things more, let's say, slow. He's not—he doesn't speak that much out of the just cough off the cuff, right? So it's going to be a very different thing.

But I'm sure because he's missionary and because of what I talked with him and how I see him vote and how I saw him act within those two weeks working with him last October, he's pretty much going to be supportive and he's going to be doing a lot of things to really see the internet as a new missionary frontier. And I could expand a lot of the work during the synodality about around that, but well, I wouldn't put him into Francis knew what he was doing and this guy doesn't seem to know what he's doing. I think the opposite. This guy has been using it a lot more firsthand, and he still has his iPhone. He still has his Apple Watch. He still responds to Gmail. And I'm not that saying that just—I heard, right? Like, I know he still responds to the Gmail, right? Because he has responded to me. Very cool. So very cool. So very excited about what's coming.

So, um, you all on the evangelicals—well, at least I'm going to say my footprint, my experience. You know, I've spent decades working with the established churches, trying to help them. Now I get the feeling like the organizational structure on that that I've worked with is much more decentralized. Like there's not a there's not the organizational structure up high that that you have.

And so it's almost going individual with churches or occasionally a denomination, but there's not nearly the alignment that necessarily. And so almost arms up in the air, I can't get the churches to see the big picture of this. I'm kind of giving up, and I'm starting to now work with individuals and missionaries and starting to craft, create more movements outside of the church.

Now, globally, there does seem to be more openness to than what you and I are used to seeing, maybe in the East a little bit, but you're painting a different picture. Or maybe, you know, the Pope sees it, but maybe archbishops do or don't, and there's some control. And so maybe talk a little bit about some of the organizational wins and struggles, maybe as you're trying to create this digital movement globally.

Cool. There's—well, you said—no, we have, let's say, the Pope and the people around him that help him, let's say, in the church's government. At the end, the Vatican state—like it's a state, like, right? The city state. And also there's a lot of things that need to be managed, let's say, not just in properties and temporal goods, et cetera, et cetera, but in so many ways to appoint new bishops, to help countries in need, so many things that are done with the hospitals, with schools. Like there needs to be a lot of structure, and some places like a lot of countries, of course, can't sustain that structure, so that needs to come from somewhere. And that, of course, comes from the Vatican, or the Vatican is the one that manages from rich countries to poor countries and missionaries from here and there, et cetera.

You know, again, with that in mind, and yes, we are very hierarchical in structure, then there's the other issue that we—like every bishop can trace their who ordained them, let's say, all the way to the apostles, no? So that's a cool thing, but that also means that, let's say, the Catholic Church has uniformity in doctrine and doctrine, right? And liturgy, right? In terms of faith and morals, to some degree. But then every bishop basically is its own king.

So yes, if changing a thing of doctrine that we have thought that we have thought to be true for now two millennia, right? Won't won't be easy, right? That that won't happen. Uh, changing things that we have thought for centuries or or or millennia, that that won't happen, right? Even though even though a bishop or several bishops want, or even though the Pope wants to, there's going to be pushback and let's say locks to keep that in. But but on the other hand, and liturgy, the same thing, right? We have an ordinary form of the mass, and then we have approved rites depending for the church for different rites that have been again for thousands, more than a thousand years, having their own right, but they're approved by, let's say, the Vatican, et cetera, et cetera.

So here in Dallas or in Mexico City or in a town, in wherever, we follow the exact same rubric of the liturgy, right? The exact same—the same parts of the Bible are read every day, the same parts. Like all that stuff. The only thing that changes is the homily section, right? With that in mind, uh, there's not—there's usually it's not like, okay, the Pope said one thing and now every bishop gets it as if it was a rule, or now the government, the central government, the federation, the federal government now gave us this and now we have to, let's say, make it a reality in our own local context. Sadly, in some senses, it doesn't work like that, right?

Why? Because every local reality has its own different ways of doing things, and the church is very respectful of that. There's a lot of free will going on, let's say, a lot of liberty in how each bishop executes their authority in how they should do. Of course, we have a law, the code of canon law, that has different things on how to, but they're very level of here, you know, not not on the day-to-day, right? So when the Pope talks about, let's say, submission and about things like that, then the bishops need to see how that is landed into their own reality, right? And that can happen in a year in some cases and that can happen in a hundred years in some others, right? Like, sadly, like, so let's say the Pope promotes the traditional mission. Doesn't mean that's going to be now in every diocese all over the world.

That's why we need to work then and convince the bishops, and that's one of the things that we're trying to do because, as you said, like, yes, we know we that try to do, let's say, evangelization online or catechesis or whatever we're doing online, we know time is often essence, right? And we know we need—we want to run. And sadly, the institutional church, uh, well, it's very slow. Yeah, time is not a thing for them, and there's so so many jokes about that.

The thing is, yes, there's no pressure in anything, and two thousand years and still this thing continues despite our best efforts sometimes it seems. So everything there, like everyone takes their time, but but we're seeing a a lot of things changing, let's say, of uh, bishops being more open and and trying to see what incorporating a digital mission into their diocese means, diocese that what that means all over the world. And sadly, us that are here, that's even easier sometimes the rest of the world than in the US. The rest of the world we're not used to having budgets and to having a lot of things, right? And so it's easier here—budgets, planning, and oh, we already have the ten-year plan, or oh, we already have the budget for the next five years. Huh? Like, Latin America, Asia, Africa, there's no budgets. We don't have money. A bishop has an intuition that this is from the Holy Spirit, that this is a way of responding to today's issues, that we need to be out there online, that we need to be with digital missionaries, that they need to be recognized, that they need to be accompanied, they need to be formed, and they need to be incorporated somehow in the life of the church. And the bishop just does it, and that has meant different ways. And I can talk a lot of different ways of how we're doing it all over the world. Sometimes it's a digital office, sometimes it's within the evangelization, sometimes within communication. It starts with the simplest of things, right? So there's a lot of ways we—I—there's this myth about, okay, the Pope says something and now the whole structure gets it and now you have an office and now it's done exactly that same way. That doesn't happen, sadly, in some cases like this, right? So but at the end, the bishop is the one that decides to incorporate this or or so many other things into the life of the diocese, right?

You know, it's I've always felt that the uh missional mindset, the missionary is going to be far more embracing, and we found this to be true, that they're going to be far more embracing of of new technologies and new ways because they're not—the missionary is not held to the baggage of uh ecclesiology, of the of the hundreds of the thousands of years. Like, you know, they they just—they don't—they they can be far more adept to it, anything. There's a a pastor, oh my gosh, I just blanked on his name, Craig Rochelle. He says, um, he's very missional mindset, and he and he says everything short of sin, you know, for the kingdom. Like, you know, it doesn't matter. Let's just let's just do it. And uh and it's interesting that church, Life Church, is very uh evangelical and very digital friendly.

But let me let me ask, cuz cuz one of the things and and I'm curious, I don't think I asked you this before. Um, one of the things that that really kind of stretches the limits uh here in the US is the idea of a church existing entirely in digital space, like without a footprint, without a dig, without a physical footprint, 100% digital. Uh, have you bumped into a a Catholic church existing entirely in digital, entirely in the internet?

Um, like, how how do though, cuz cuz you're like these these cathedrals, they're they're they're sacred grounds and you've got iconography all over with the stained glass and and and like, you know, my—it's it's a very physical, it feels um uh process of of what you go through during on on Sundays. I got to imagine that doesn't translate well digitally, or or or does it? Like, what what does that conversation look like for you?

Yeah, that that's one of the let's say fears and also one of the things that we have been discovering, and what you're saying has different levels, right? Canonically, let's say the jurisdiction of how this would happen, this would work, but also we are—like, first of all, of course, we all know all Christians, we we all believe Christ like became incarnate, right? He's not an avatar, right? He's not a virtual, whatever. No, he became flesh. So that's a thing. And and for us Catholics, the sacraments are essential to being Catholic, no? So, so when I say the sacraments, I'm I'm talking about, pre, like, of course we have seven sacraments, right? But let's say the Eucharist, right? The confession, for instance, no, the reconciliation, but the Eucharist for us, the liturgy of the mass, right? That yes, there's special permits and special circumstances.

Of course, we had one five years ago that lasted for a while, right? Couple years there seems like a couple years, but it's now five years, Jeff.

We were allowed, let's say, to see mass, but we participate in a mass. We don't see it, right? And we're not just there. The least important thing, if one would say that we go there, is for the sermon. That's not what we go to. We believe what happens there is precisely the sacrifice, the sacrifice, right? And the holy Friday and everything that happens there all the way to Easter Sunday.

And that's what we're not just remembering, but we do believe the host, or the bread, is the flesh and the wine is the blood of Christ. So for us, that can't be. That can't be online, right? There's no way we can't have online. And same with the reconciliation sacrament, confession, right? That can't be online. That's not yet allowed. Maybe sometime, right?

So what we do, for instance, when we talk about online communities, there's a lot of online communities that gather, a lot that gather, and they pray either Catholic stuff, let's say prayers like the rosary. Some that happen like four a.m. in Brazil. Literally millions connect at the same time and they're all praying the rosary or they're praying different things. Or charismatics do different things. Like each has, we have a lot of variety, let's say, of how we Catholics pray depending on spirituality and charisms, et cetera, et cetera. And there's a lot of prayer services, let's say, online. But at the end, and there's a lot of also online that happen in formation, right? Because if we go a bit back or talk about different topics, so I can come back to this question, Jeff.

We do several things online. It's very cool to think evangelization, but or online evangelization or mission, but for us Catholics, there's different things and there's very distinct charisms of what, of who does it.

So one is really yes, evangelization, the first announcement, what we call the first announcement. That's the focus on people who are not practicing at all, who don't have a Christian faith, who are not baptized, who might not know anything about Christ, right? There's other things that are like lapsed Catholics or Christians, right? And we try to be where they are and accompany them to where they are and accompany them towards, say, the truth of God and Christ's mercy.

There's catechesis being done, formation being done there. There's entertainment, different ways of entertainment. There's a lot of like pastoral accompaniment that's being done already that's very good with already practicing Catholics that are already trying to keep their faith. There's different, right?

So when we talk about like a lot of these things, most of what I just said can happen online. But even the first thing that I said, the first announcement, no, preaching the kerygma, trying to reach people there and showing them there's a God that loved us and that died for us and then walking with them all the way to realizing that the church is, let's say, what he invited us to, and how they can live a good life in every sense. Then we're there online, not to keep people there.

So yes, we have these prayer services. We can have all the things that I say, information, et cetera. But for us, it's essential that we bridge from the online to the in-person world to the sacramental. That's essential.

So when you say a church online church or a digital or virtual church, we can't have that in the Catholic Church. We can have prayer groups, we can have discussion groups, we can have pastoral accompaniment, we can have different things, right? And we can stream live the mass. And if you're too old or too sick or in a pandemic or whatever, yes, we believe there's a spiritual communion if different things, if we follow different things, right?

But at the end, we believe in Christian community, in-person Christian community. We believe in the sacraments are in person and we believe that the sacrifice happens every mass and we long for that. And that's the fullness of what we believe. Like that's the Eucharist, the center of what we believe in.

So everything that we do online has to be so people stop scrolling and stop spending hours and hours here, right? And they go into this life, the sacramental life, which for us happens in person, right? It can't happen one hundred percent online. So will we have a parish, an online parish? No. We have parishes that do a lot of things online to be where people are at, to form them, to accompany them day to day. But even on the first announcement.

Yeah, it's not like a CTA, call to action, come to mass Sunday. Sometimes it's a journey that lasts years or a lot of steps, right? Sometimes it's very easy because people are already ready, but we want to invite them to a sacramental life. That's very important for us.

Kath, it's interesting. I don't know if I answered your question.

No, no, I think it's good. What are some of the challenges? I mean, because essentially you're using digital to drive people to physical. What are some of the challenges that people, that churches, that priests, that leadership would have with that mindset? Are they not comfortable being on digital at all? Like you're not replacing the church by trying to, like it's a very conservative take, you know? I was half expecting you to say, "Yeah, we're wanting, you know, virtual, you know, whatever." But that's not what you're doing. You're it's a very complimentary approach, which is very conservative. Um, so what's the major headache in the space or like what's the obstacle you're facing?

Well, there's several, and we can speak ours and yeah, we like cross traditions with tradition capitalized? Yeah, capitalized. Sorry, my Spanish kicks in. That's very important, right? And yes, we won't change. We won't change some things that have been important for two millennia and they will continue being so. So yes, for us, we won't change our theology because of virtual.

We know a lot of things are changing in the world, but maybe to draw like an image of how we're seeing it and then go back to all the issues that we could talk hours and maybe need some tequilas, Jeff, to talk about all the issues. But the what the church has realized, what the Catholic Church has realized, is that internet is a culture.

Before, we saw it as a parish bulletin or I don't know how you call it, the church bulletin, sure, or like communication that's very one-sided. There's like there's a communicant and you have a receiver and blah blah blah blah blah, and well, we hope someone will engage or understand or listen or whatever. No. And we have been, I don't know if there's sociologists who are listening to this, you said Josh might not be listening, but for instance, one of the things that we argue is that the internet has the elements of a culture. It has its own language, its own customs, doing things, its own like continents, and we could call them platforms or whatever. Like it has a lot of the different elements of a culture, right?

So the thing with the Catholic Church that we have been realizing these last several years, mostly with Pope Francis, and I'm sure we will continue with Pope Leo, is that evangelization happens where people are at.

And before, it was, okay, we found out about the new culture, we sent missionaries there. We didn't know if they were going to be killed, eaten, or if the culture was going to be so attractive. We don't know so many stories. Of course, there exist a lot of missionaries that went there and well, pagan culture became so attractive that they stayed there, became whatever something else.

No, but we have never ever been afraid of going to a new culture, finding the seeds of the verb as Vatican says, you know? And it's the same mission. Matthew 28, it's the same mission, right? Go and proclaim to every nation and make disciples, proclaim God's love to every nation. It's the same mission, right?

But we have done it to different cultures. And when missionaries, the famous missionaries or any missionary, they didn't get there, for instance, so many missionaries that we have, for instance, very famous one, Francis Xavier. No, when he went to India or Japan or China, he didn't start preaching in Spanish. He didn't get like his Bible and repent and whatever. No, he got there. He had to learn the language. He had to see how they lived, see the customs, how they lean, identify, say the things that were in line with what persons like, we believe, we think of good and bad, et cetera, et cetera. And then mostly by his witness, initially by their witness, by the missionaries' witness, right? This is how they, people saw God in them, right? They saw there was something different. And yes, learn the language, the customs, and by their witness and then yes, started preaching and well, we have baptisms, et cetera, no.

But so the church, the Catholic Church, is seeing the internet as a new culture. Yeah. So we're seeing it as the new missionary frontier. And as we have done for twenty centuries, not being afraid of going there, we have, we are now going there to win people to Christ and to walk with them.

So with that in mind, that is not, of course, it's not the traditional sense of like in-person physical space, right? And it, and one could argue that's why in some senses it can't be a whole new culture, although we know it's a culture and we can live it. And the thing is, then how can we precisely have at church, let's say, so many cool things that are happening online? Evangelization, podcast, we do a lot of podcasts. People get attracted, let's say they, okay, finally, after listening years and finding a way, their journey and introspection, I'm ready to go to church. Then they go to a Catholic church and then they have an old priest or a very, let's say, closed priest, you know, so many senses that there's no people who welcome them or they see, yeah, they got how they're dressed and how their tattoos or whatever, or how they don't know anything and maybe judging. And if you have all that stuff, which of course happens a lot, of course we're losing it.

So the thing is, we have the call right now, and mostly these last couple years with the codality, is having in mind how our reality is being transformed. And there's a lot of research about this, how our brain is being transformed even when we're not on our devices, right? But our language, our way of seeing things, of approaching things, of thinking about things, because of the digital world, we know we need to change a lot of the things that we do in our parishes, in our churches, right? And how to be more welcoming and how to be more attractive.

Yes, we have missionary digital missionaries or Catholic influencers who are priests or who are nuns or monks or whatever. Okay, cool. But that's a minuscule amount of people, right? Most are a priest that might be very old and doesn't even have, well, maybe WhatsApp or Facebook, right? But doesn't know anything about that.

So we have a lot of challenges there. That's why they need to rely on lay people, which has been a change that Pope Francis has been, well, since Vatican Council number two, right? Second Vatican Council at the end of sixty-two.

Well, 62, it ended up trying to have lay people make the church our own. It's not the bishop's church. It's not the priests and they just do and say and we just go and participate from this side. No, we have to make it our own, and online. There's a lot of things that we need to help the church, that we need to help our leaders be part of and help them.

And well, there's a lot of issues, of course, with bishops. Some have had very bad experiences because, of course, we have Catholic YouTubers who have who are very critical of the pope, or well, Pope Francis, of bishops who have promoted disunity or fake news towards their own bishop, et cetera, et cetera. And there's a lot of issues that we could talk a lot about that we are finding out how to let's say work around them or work within them and without being afraid. Right? This is happening. That's why also Pope Leo, and well, even Francis, was very bold with AI. We need to be in the middle of the conversations where things are happening. So it's better learning by trying, which was a thing that Pope Francis invited us to do. That he told so many times. He told us so many times how he preferred a church that is outside, that is trying new things, that it bruises, that has dirt on our hands, right, on our nails, right, because we're trying different things. That church that's just inside, are people that are just inside our churches and getting sick because we're just there, stale, right?

Well, so we're invited to change, to try different approaches and things. Yeah. So I mean, speaking of that, I was curious about innovation overall within the Catholic Church. What is, I mean, you got metaverse, you got virtual reality, augmented, like we're at we're at the precipice of incredible technological leaps and bounds here in the next decade. What does innovation look like within the Catholic Church?

Precisely. With Josh, I had a conversation at the last time that he, I think it was last time he was here in Dallas, or I don't know if it was Jasum, but he was saying, you know, he's Lutheran, right? He's not Catholic. And well, but he's all over, all over the, yeah, he's all over the map. Christian. Yeah. And he was telling me how he has been hearing for years how innovation is like a buzz word in a lot of Christian like denominations, events, a lot of things, and hackathons and events and stuff. And he was like, I don't hear that word at all in Catholic church. And yeah, we just don't use that word like that a lot, right?

And first of all, like in liturgy, in doctrine, yes, we like, we want to innovate. We're pretty conservative if you want to use that word. Like we want to stick to what we have thought for 20 centuries and what we have believed for 20 centuries and what we believe Christ taught us, et cetera, et cetera, and our understanding of things. So in some senses, one could say yes, innovation is not our thing. On the other hand, the Catholic Church has always adapted to the times, and we have been at the forefront of a lot of things. And you see big bang theory, you know that you see like all the Catholic thing, let's say scientists, et cetera, that have discovered and even led so many different things, right? The genome and et cetera. Now also so many things on AI. Like Catholics have always been on the forefront of experimentation, of innovation in that sense, right? In that other sense, do we use the word innovation? No. Now in the sense, in a sense, that's what Pope Francis was asking us in Evangelii Audium, right, which was his apostolic exhortation that he repeated us so many times. And now with the Synod of Synodality that we concluded last October, that we're in a three-year phase now, we were invited by Rome, by the Vatican, to experiment, implement these things. We need to be a more listening church. We know that we need to listen more. Stop preaching. Listen, listen. See where people are at. See the daily experiences, the wounds, the cries of the earth, of the people, and then see how to better be with them and through God's love heal them.

And we need to find better ways of doing that because we have been so bad and so many bad things that we have been doing in so many ways. And we know we need to change a lot of things. So yes, in some senses, no innovation at all, but in other senses, we know we need to be closer to people, to promote encounter between cultures, to promote peace, to promote justice, so many different things. That's why there's so many different charisms, religious orders, ecclesial movements, like groups of lay people, all within the Catholic Church, all very different, but it's trying different new things within their own charism and calling. And we have been asked mostly by Pope Francis, but throughout our history, and sometimes we become too traditional and too stale. And then comes a saint that completely reforms the church and to show, just remember who you are, remember to be out there, to do this, et cetera, et cetera. So yeah, not in the same sense, but even right now the Vatican is at the forefront. If you saw last week's Christian, the letter on AI by the Christian leaders, the reference, I think from the pope and the Vatican, has been conversations which are so insiders called the Minerva dialogue with Palo Alto and Silicon Valley people, et cetera, for a decade. And a lot of things going on, innovation, talking with a lot of different people. But it's a very different take. I agree. And somehow it appears innovation, some people within the Catholic church, that word itself is like it doesn't sound right.

Is it, is it, do you feel like it's, and I'm not trying to get gotcha journalism, so I'm trying to ask this question in a soft language, but is it responding like just in time when it needs to? Is it slow in responding, but is stable? You know, it's interesting. I made this illustration the other day, like Major League Baseball, where, you know, a lot of the same roles that Babe Ruth played at in the 1920s still exist today. Like the game itself has not changed historically. They've made minor adjustments here or there when they were need to, maybe under duress, but at the end of the day, it's still honoring what was and it is still trying to be somewhat effective for the future. One could not say the same thing about Major League Baseball. That's funny. So like, is it innovation without being innovation? Is it responding in season to do what it has to? Like, what fuels innovation for the Catholic Church?

Yeah. I think it's in different things. First of all, one of the let's say parameters, it's not like we have our very clear don'ts, or this is where innovation has no space. For instance, very clearly the liturgy, right? Like very clear, no. We believe something since the beginning of the Catholic church, the fathers of the church, that something we believe. Bread is this, the blood is this. We believe those things. So innovating there in the liturgy, you won't see that. And whenever it's done by let's say rogue priests or whatever, is frowned upon, right? So in that sense, yeah, doctrine, what we believe in, yeah, we won't start changing things just because we think it's more cool right now. What we have believed are what we believe in, right? And even things immoral, we take a while. We have nuances. We have better understanding. Science has helped us a lot in a lot of things to let's say adjust or even change our understanding, but because of science, not because of theological reasons, right? Like, for instance, like the, you know, centuries ago, Galileo Galilei, et cetera, right? Like, so and we have several, and the church then admits, like, okay, yes, we thought the world was the center of the universe. We now know it's not. So this earth-centric approach, well, we adjusted, right? And we're open to that sort of stuff, but because of science or reason, right? Not because we are changing a theological truth or something.

In terms of evangelization, in terms of formation, in terms of how to better help, let's say, the poor, the needy, let's say the Beatitudes, right, make them reality, the church has always been innovative. That's why we invented universities. That's why hospitals. That's why so many things have happened because we have always, always invented, let's say innovated, in those senses. And sometimes, like, let's say one could argue, if one goes into the history of the church or just world history, like the Dark Ages, like the Middle Ages, were so very bad in a lot of senses for innovation, for the church, and of trying different things. And then we have this rich church that became too complacent or too like in bed with world powers, with kings, with et cetera, et cetera, and so many bad things that we know. And we have asked for forgiveness and still trying to atone for a lot of those sins. And we had some crazy, crazy saints that reminded us of things, like St. Francis of Assisi, St. Catherine of Siena, right? That wrote so many, when we had two popes. Well, we had one pope, but we didn't know which one was the real one, et cetera, et cetera. And we had these people that sound crazy that are reminding us of who we are and that go out of their limbs, like this Francis, in times of a very rich church in which the bishops were really princes in all the sense of the word, or the worldly sense of the word, prince of the church. He was crazy and lived with nothing but with a robe, right? And begging and preaching and building. And that's what changed, let's say, the world. And then St. Bernard, when monasteries, when monasteries were again also deforming into bad things and being the worst. So we became stale. And there's always there has always been people that remind us of who we are and that we have to be who we have to be and how we need to be responding to Christ's call in today's time. Sometimes that hierarchy has become like very, yes, slow in realizing these things. And that's when we have these other things happening. Right now with Francis, we had a lot of let's say wakeup calls that he was inviting us to see outside of ourselves. And that was very hard for a lot of people. That one could say to conservatives, let's say to some conservatives in the Catholic church, because he was like calling us out in a lot of senses and inviting us to be out of ourselves and to listen more. And how can we listen more if we have the truth? And it and we need those types of people to remind us of who we are.

There's always a lot of people that, behind, let's say, not in front of the screens, in the shadows, in good sense, are have always been innovating on ways to reach the poor, the needy, to evangelize those that don't need it, and so many examples of people that are doing that and who have been trying to do that in so many countries and places, even in the US, in cities with with people that need physical stuff, like normal stuff to eat and shelter, et cetera, but who also need love and who also need spiritual advice and who need someone to be there, right?

So what's a win? What does the Catholic Church look like in 2035, in 10 years?

I would say because of the Synod of Synodality, which was this gathering that took place for several years in Rome, had different faces, a universal phase in which every diocese participated and we listen to everyone that wanted to say a thing about the church and how we're living our calling as a church, et cetera.

But also then we have, let's say, the last phase, which was the universal phase in Rome that I was a part of, as you know, for the last two years, '23 and '24, and was bishops from all over.

For instance, one of the things that Pope Francis changed was he now had a percentage of non-bishops that were voting, that we not only had a voice but also a vote. And as you know, I was one of them. And one of the things that we are invited by the final document, which we all voted and then he decided to make part of his ordinary magisterium, which now makes it, let's say, something that Catholics can feed from and use from. It's not just a thing that was said by a bunch of people, but has some authority.

We have some guidelines and diocesan local realities. Yes, bishops, but also religious superiors from religious orders, which means monks and nuns, mostly, right? They're invited to recognize the local digital missionaries. So people that are already there recognize them, see them, right? Have an encounter with them. So that's happening already in so many different parts of the world, right? In which the bishop is getting to know the local Catholic influencers, social missionaries, content creators, however you may want to call them, that are in the region.

That first encounter changes everything. And of course, I have to talk a lot with the bishops. Please don't preach. Please don't tell them what they're doing wrong. Ask, ask like, ask them how they're calling, what's in their hearts, why they think God is calling them to do this and how they're doing it and their struggles, and get to know each other. Poof. The things that happen after that first encounter.

So we can have that. We're still planning and trying to do different things in the states. But if we can have bishops that are really interested in getting to know digital missionaries that live there in the region, even though of course their followers can be from everywhere. No, yeah, but our reality still is very, let's say, geographical in terms of jurisdiction, canonical jurisdiction. So right now, because of course that's a different thing that we won't talk here, that's more complicated, who will be in charge of them, and there's different options that we might be exploring. The church that we're exploring will take forever, like years, to find out. But if we as Catholics, bishops, don't want to just outsource, let's say, evangelization, which is very essential—bishops are supposed to be shepherds, right? Teachers and the first evangelizers of their diocese, right? If they're seeing digital missionaries as an extension, and also they make them part of their pastoral plan, of their evangelization plan, it all starts with men.

So in ten years, let's say, if bishops, a majority of bishops, are doing this, and then with them walking towards seeing, okay, how can we better be one? Because that's what God called us all Christians, right? To be one as he's one, right? Yeah, so if we are that, and it's not like, okay, some digital missionaries here doing some cool content and attracting people to Christ in the church, and then they go to a church and then it's most boring or most unwelcoming church or most judgy church, then we have all these issues. No.

So if we are incorporating that and we start transforming a lot of the things of how we are church—not of what we think, not of what we believe in, not of the way we celebrate the liturgy, but how we are, how we do, how we act with people who think differently, who are very different in every sense or can be in every sense—but how we welcome them like the God the Father with open arms. If we start doing that, the things that can happen, Jeff, in so many ways will be a whole different church. And it's changing so rapidly in the places that the bishops are taking the first step in listening, not in preaching, not in telling them what they're doing wrong. And then there's a lot of cool things happening. The Holy Spirit does its thing, and the church's structure starts changing because of this mindset of being out there with them, listening, accompanying them, recognizing and seeing them as what they are: missionaries.

Yeah, often we talk about, you know, establishing trust digitally and asking, you know, more questions than making statements. Use more question marks than periods and no exclamation marks. Don't preach. Listen. Allow the Holy Spirit to use you by listening. And so it's interesting. I hear my language coming in a different context coming from you over the past hour. This is beautiful.

Now, Jose, I didn't even ask up at the top. Like, what do you actually do? Like, what's your job? Because this is—are you not like paid by the Catholic Church, right? You do something else in addition. What's your actual nine to five?

Yeah, sadly that's not a thing. When even like this, you know, last year I spent a month and two years ago another month in the Vatican. Even there, no, I wasn't paid. I convinced him to pay for my ticket and my lodging, but that was about it. But well, no, well, several things. Let's say the way that I sustain myself and my family—because I'm married and I have three kids—it's by a sort of a digital marketing agency and content creation agency. We work with Catholic organizations, including a couple of dioceses, and that agency is geared mostly at helping them connect with Latinos and attracting them to Christ, right?

As you might know, Latinos in the US make up almost fifty percent of Catholics, right? And the majority of Catholics under twenty-five are Latinos in the US. But the church, sadly, the Catholic Church sadly does very little things to try to convince them that Latinos are worth it, that there's a lot of ways to attract them to Christ. So they're not leaving to the nones because they're not—a lot of people think, oh, Latinos are leaving to other Christian denominations, whatever. Well, cool if so, but that's not happening. They're leaving to the nones. They're not—they stop practicing the faith. And that's because we are not welcoming them. And that starts with we're not seeing them by who they are. We're not creating content for them. We're not doing a lot of cool things for them that evangelize them, that talk to them in culture, et cetera, et cetera.

So we do that. Let's say the agency, and that's where, let's say, our team—the team sustains itself—and that's supposed to be my primary job. And yes, that's the way I get, let's say, I sustain my family and myself. We have very few clients, so we survive. But on the other hand, what my heart really is on is the nonprofit part. Finally, after years and years and years, last year we incorporated legally. We now have a nonprofit in which we have three different initiatives.

One is the evangelization lab, in which we do experiments to see what works, precisely to bring people from the online to the in-person. And that's a very cool thing that we are—that's going to be out in the public very soon because we have been doing it behind the mics, behind the cameras. So there's a lot of really cool things there, multidisciplinary approach, a lot of really cool things there. And I would love to hear your feedback, Jeff, and your thoughts on different things and even maybe experiment with you guys a bit.

Oh yeah, we can. Yeah, once you go public with some of the findings of the lab, I'd love to double back with you and, you know, learn what you're learning and, yeah, dig more interventions and experiments also, right?

Oh, totally. Definitely love it. So, hey, this has been a great conversation, a great time. Jose, thanks for hanging out with us, and so looking forward to working more closely with you as we're going down this road. But as we're wrapping up here, Jose, any closing thoughts?

Oh, thank you, Jeff, for everything I've told you. Well, not in person yet, in Zoom and in WhatsApp. What you're doing, like, we need what you're doing. So I'm very grateful when I discovered the Truth Digital. I was very excited. I am very excited with what you're doing with the cohorts and well with the podcast and with the community and with everything. I don't participate as often there in the very pad with WhatsApp, et cetera, et cetera, but I'm a fan of what you're doing. I pray for you daily, and well, I hope a lot of the people that are listening that are not Catholics understand that we're trying the same thing and that we are trying to work together as well. And I love your approach and seeing a lot of non-Catholics, like Christian non-Catholics, that are trying to see us and also work with us in the same way. And well, we're called to be one, right? So let's try to do it.

The church digital, we've always been friends on mission, and there's a lot more, Jose. It's interesting. I've even been getting WhatsApp notifications from friends that are watching this stream live. There's a lot more that unites us than divides us. And so, man, it's great to have you on the stream here and looking forward to working with you more in the weeks and months to come. I have no idea why I said forward. Uh, working with you more, uh, moving forward, maybe. Okay, I don't know. I am somewhat medicated, and so I'm looking forward to ending this stream. Probably going to take a nap. But hey, Jose, it's been a great conversation, and even though I've been on drugs through this conversation—oh, no, I'm kidding. Actually, I'm not kidding. But it has been great to hang out with you, Jose. Thanks for spending Tuesday with us. And for Jose, this is Jeff with the Church Digital. Thanks for hanging out with us, and we'll see y'all soon. Y'all have a good one.

Thank you.