EP371 - Jeff & Flatcap Talk TCD Streaming Network, Surgery, and Sabbath

All right. I guess we are live. All right. Oh, yeah, no, we've been live for the past five seconds. Wasn't that nice of us? All right. Streaming, copy video, URL. Hey, everybody. YouTube's kind of like, oh, hey, there's something going on in the world. All right, so that's going there. Let's put that over in WhatsApp. We got some people hopefully struggling in. You know what? I typically, when I go this late, I don't get a lot of viewers, so this will be interesting. Okay. If people come. On-demand views are up, but hey, I just don't get a lot of views in the moment. How are you doing, Leighton?

I'm doing really well. Starting the new year off, excited about a lot of things that are going on, and like a lot of people, wondering what's going to happen in the world this year. So, you know, just seeing what God's up to is a whole lot more fun and paying attention to that than watching the local news, that's for sure.

Well, evidently, I don't want to get political here right off the bat, but evidently, you know, Venezuela is going to become the 51st state or something like that, or at least that's what we hear. That's the talk here.

I did not hear that one.

Here in Miami. Actually, my former pastor is Venezuelan, and he's not a Trump guy, but he's very excited because of the freeing of the people. But we're not going to get politics here. If you're listening, you're listening. I think that one comment just chased away the one viewer I did have. Oh, he's talking Trump. I got to get out of here. OK, they came back. Never mind. But, man, it's it is it's a I feel like it's a political nightmare right now.

You know, there was a lot of different things seem to be that way for sure.

You know what? I was just I was going back because, you know, we had Trump and then Biden and then Trump. I can remember saying in like 2014, 2015, before Trump's presidency, Obama's president, you know, Trump was in that in that election period. I remember saying. I actually am really curious what Trump would look like as a president because he's so dynamic, because he's so over the top, because he's so, you know, type A, like he, and unfiltered, like he's gonna, he's gonna turn everything on its side. And it's been amazing to see how over the top and how, you know, he is leading in this. I'm not saying it's good or bad, but it's completely different than anything we've ever seen. And so it's remarkable. If he can figure out how to get a third presidency, I think he's going to figure it out.

Even just to go from the standpoint of social media, which he did a lot of, and I think he still does. I never followed him. One of the things that's true in social media is if you're not being talked about, you're going to be forgotten. And so he's really learned that lesson of how to keep people talking about you. My wife and I have interesting conversations around that often about how it looks like one story is carrying the day and then suddenly there's a new story and a new story. There is always a newer story that is coming out in connection with him and just thinking about You know, getting people to talk about you and to continue to talk about you and to think about the ministry that you're doing does require you to be actively posting maybe more often than I have been in the past. And that's one of my hopes this year is to probably post more consistently and more often than I ever have.

Now, when you post, I mean, let's move away from Trump because Trump's boring. Like, when you post, like, what, is this, you know, Instagram, Facebook? Like, who is your audience right now? Who are you trying to reach?

On some level, I think YouTube and some of the stuff I'm doing because I want to create stuff that's more evergreen content so that people can find it and reuse it again and again and again in addressing some stuff. So stuff that I'm doing on my stream. And which I've been doing for years, but I've just readjusted how I'm doing it so I can create better VODs to go out there, you know, reading through the Bible in a year on Twitch stream. So I've been shifting things around. So instead of what I normally do is start the conversation, start reading, interrupt myself with thoughts and go on side trails before I even get a, you know, a verse or two in. Now it's like, okay, read the whole chapter. and then go have the conversation about it so that it makes better videos. Maybe not the best for the way I've been doing Twitch, but that's one of the things that I'm trying to do. So that content hopefully will be able to be found again and again. I do post on TikTok and I think on some level, my approach to TikTok is to get in front of some eyeballs who might want to find me on Twitch. And I know that you can't always move people from one platform to another. Or they'll go over to YouTube and watch long form content there. So that's kind of what I do there. I do post on Facebook. Facebook is a lot of people that I know from real life. So I don't have a following outside of that. It's been, I should say in person from ministries I've been at, not real life, but in person ministry. that I've had over the years that created connections with people that watch me over there. I post, I don't get great views, but it's content that if people are looking and they know me, they'll go there and they'll find that. But that's not gonna be evergreen content over on Facebook. It's gonna be seen or forgotten and then you move on. And so that auto post to Instagram, but I don't actually ever go over to Instagram.

Well, let's do this. I mean, we kind of had a rolling start here. We already talked about, you know, YouTube, Instagram, and the president. But let's do this. You know, do you feel like whenever you talk about the president, you have to apologize for talking about the president? Like, I just almost feel like I need to put a disclaimer on that. But, hey, listen, Leighton, you're... Have we done a stream or a podcast interview, you and I together? I was actually thinking about this. You've been on with Mark, I know, on Exponential, but I couldn't remember one that you and I had done together.

I think we may have done one together with the two of us, but I know I've been on several when there's been other people on.

Yeah.

So I know, I know we were, we were, or I was on with Andy and you last year when we were hyping the gaming podcast or the gaming summit. that was coming up i think i'd been on before that but you're maybe it hasn't been a one-on-one i don't know i don't remember no uh giving tuesday maybe we did a one-on-one for a while but that was also a whole bunch of other people from beginning to end

Yeah, let's do this just to kick it off. By the way, Methos, great comment here. Facebook is super broken. I see almost zero friends and family content there anymore. It is trash feed only. It no longer serves original purpose, sadly real. And I'm gonna go on that rabbit trail for a second. The worst part is with the inundation of artificial intelligence, and fake content now. It used to be you knew what Facebook was was valid. And I can remember back in the day using Facebook and even Twitter instead of watching news or reading the newspapers because that was just a quicker feed for... Oh, yeah. And now it's it's like, you know, it's I see a lot of Marvel stuff and a lot of Star Wars and that stuff. But it's like it's so over the top. And, you know, people are using A.I. to fake all sorts of, you know, and it's trashy. And yes, so methods. I fully agree with that. But.

Yeah, I guess they... Good to see you, Mythos. I think I've noticed recently people that I know in person will have a post and it will show me and it'll say, do you want more content like this? And I'm like, yes, that's a person I know. I mean, actually on TikTok, I only look at content from people I know and follow. Like I just hit the friends thing and I scroll through friends and I heart everybody. If it catches me, I'll stop and comment. Otherwise, I just scroll. But I don't follow anybody. I mean, I don't watch TikTok for people that I don't know. I go there to support my friends who are over there doing ministry.

Yeah. You know, I feel like that is the meta is trying to separate Facebook and Instagram. Like, I still feel like Instagram is very grounded in relationships. And I feel like Facebook has become more of a platform for for groups, for news, for, you know, for for organizations. And it's but in the algorithm is just look at this, look at this, look at this, look at this, which is which is interesting. But it still is like you. People are looking, and once again, people are looking for that community. They're not looking for noise. They're looking for that relationship, which is the ground level of everything we do at The Church Digital. But let's do this, Leighton, as you're kicking off, like talk a little bit about yourself, your ministry, what you specifically do, your relationship with TCD, outside of TCD, because even outside of digital, like you're the guy that is all over the place with what you're doing. And so tell us a little bit about what ministry looks like for you.

Ministry for me looks like wearing a bunch of hats. As he's wearing a hat. Yes, I'm wearing a hat and I have a bunch behind me if you don't know. But I've always kind of had that level of wanting to know what other people are up to. And when I find out you're doing something, I connect you to other people doing similar things. So I kind of have gradually, as I've done ministry, progressed more and more towards digital things. First, primarily just focusing on, hey, we've got community that we have here at the church. How do we lean into? ministry online to help those people to stay connected as they are not in person you know how do we do that when you have shut-ins how do we do that when you have people on vacation or sick or any of those kinds of things i've always been focused in that way and then it was probably actually i think about five years ago that I got introduced to the church digital by a couple of different people. One was Pastor Brock VR, who I knew across town pastor. We were in a pastor group together. He kept talking about doing VR ministry. Once I jumped on and started watching him, he's like, hey, you need to go meet Jeff at Church Digital and have a conversation. And we did. And I still went, I don't know what I'm supposed to do or do with that. And no disrespect to you. It was just like, it did not click for me what God was leading the path for me. And probably four or five months later, Pastor Mark over at Lux Digital Church said, have you talked to Jeff? And I said, I have. And he said, maybe you need to talk to him again. Okay. I will trust you on that one. And I'll go jump over there. And I just started hanging out and learning what others were up to in the space. And then I've been leaning in a little bit. A little. So I... I'm a Twitch streamer and I'm in the really small niche area of people that are not doing gaming for the most part. So I don't lean into the gaming aspect most of the time when I'm streaming. I lean into I'm sitting in front of a camera and talking to you. I'm in the just chatting area, which actually is the largest area. as far as the number of people that are doing it uh the number of views but that's because you take that one category out against all of the games individually if you add all the games together up it's much larger

So, I mean, this is this. Go ahead. Go ahead. Please, please, please.

I do game a little bit over there. I will. I've got several different games I played. I play on my stream sometimes. I read more of the Bible on my stream. I'm the Church Digital. I game almost every Monday for a couple of hours. But that's to tell you about the podcast whenever the next episode. of the podcast will be coming up control alt delete uh and that's recorded live on twitch and the platform leans itself to having long conversations so people can come in be a part of it for a while and then exit out or come in late join in the conversation and just do that so it's a free-flowing couple of hour podcast which is not the normal way that you would do it on other platforms but i want to lean into that twitch culture and the gamers in there and i'm also bringing on other people's communities in the podcast to interview them, which is fun. So I've got those things going on. I've set up pastor networks and groups with John 17, 23 Ministries. I started a prayer booth down in my local artisan market where I go down there during the summer and invite people just to have a safe space to come in if they need someone to talk to, if they need prayer, they just need a listening ear. I hang out in that space and then also serve as chaplain to all of the people who work in the artisan market. So it's been a fun time doing that and then trying to get involved with doing brew pastor. So I go down to the local brewery and I hang out there getting to know the different employees that are there. And then I've had events going on. I got to work on some more stuff there and trying to do things there. And then I'm always trying to do more things of connecting with gaming culture and with my denomination digitally. Always the one in the room who they probably roll their eyes when I go. I stand up and I bet he's going to talk about doing digital ministry. That's probably what he's going to bring up. Or he's going to bring up gaming again. And it's like, can't you talk about anything else? And I'm like, I could, but I want to lean into this because I see God at work here. And so that's... I don't know. There's probably more hats that I could throw out there and talk about, but they're not all related to everything else. I jump around from thing to thing.

So is your denomination more upset because you're the digital guy or more upset because you're a brew pastor? I'm curious.

Oh, my denomination for the most part is not going to have an issue with brew pastors.

No, brew pastors is no problem. Just drink whenever you want. Just don't talk digital. That's fascinating. So, okay. That's good to know. So parties at Layton's then from now on, as we're meeting. Layton buys the first round. Good to know.

Well, if you stop by my house, I do my own wine. So I've got a nice stock. I never got into brewing beer, but my COVID hobby is making wine. I had unemployed sons who graduated from college. during COVID and moved into my basement with nothing to do. And I was home and I was, you know, taking care of ministry, but doing it from home. And I was like, okay, I want to go do something with my boys. I had a friend who was a farmer letting his field go that year. So it was covered with dandelions. So we went and picked 10 gallons of dandelions and that was the first wine I made. And then I kicked myself for not, this is how I do things. I start because it looks like a great idea. I read the first step I need to do and I go do the first step. I do not read through the instructions from beginning to end and then decide if I'm going to do it. No, that sounds good. Let me do the first step. Well, I got done all the brewing and then it was now wait nine months before it's drinkable.

And I'm like, what in the world? I got to wait nine months? That's amazing.

I don't have patience to wait nine months.

They should put that line at the beginning. It's like a line in Doctor Strange. Always read to the end before you get started.

I don't do that. I jump in feet first and move forward. Kind of probably why I jump in and get excited about stuff in digital and just move forward and figure God will take care of a lot of the stuff. We don't have to have it all figured out ahead of time. If God is in it, it's going to happen. If God's not in it, it's not going to happen. It's kind of like, I want to say, Gamelia, I'm trying to remember who it was, that they had Peter and John in there and he said, hey, if this is of God, you're not going to be able to stop it. And if it's not of God, it'll just go away.

That's good. That's good. Well, you know, some people have been doing digital ministry 20 plus years and we haven't gone away yet. So I guess it's of God, at least by that metric. So cool. Hey, so talk to me a little bit. You are a non-gamer streamer. You're in the Just Chatting crowd and you're leaning into trying to reach the Twitch audience. culture now there's there's a lot of people that don't really understand what the twitch culture is and and so like let's let's take some time let's put some words on it what what is twitch culture

Twitch culture for the biggest part is about being there live when things are happening. So it's not about I want to watch the videos later and I want something great from beginning to end. It is the participation in the moment of what's happening. And so that happens in games and it started out, I think it was just in TV where he was playing a game and so his friends could watch him and they would go over to Discord to have voice conversations, those kinds of things. And so it is about being friends together and hanging out. And if you don't know each other, you become friends as you're building relationship and community there. But it is around the shared experience that you are having together in the moment. So that's one of the things. It doesn't matter what your subculture within Twitch is because first-person shooter is going to be another subculture. Within that, you're going to break down into individual games. If you are retro gamer, that's a whole culture. So there's subcultures within all of Twitch, but Twitch overall is about the live experience and participating and being there. while everything is happening and you get to engage with what's happening. And there's various different ways that they've created that where you get redeems. Like I've got one where, you know, spot of tea, cause you know, a lot of them just do hydrate and I have to be a little bit different. So I drink tea all the time. So I just, you know, put my pinky up and probably insult the British by giving a bad accent. I don't even know if it's a British accent, but a spot of tea. And then, you know, yeah. So you have interactive pieces for people to be able to participate along the way and engage with the streamer while they're live, which a lot of other platforms hasn't really figured out. They try to go live, but the culture there isn't about participation. So it's not always as good, you know, when you're on other platforms of being live because people are just sitting there watching. They're not always trying to engage and participate.

Yeah. You know what's interesting is I tried streaming on Twitch for, I mean, I don't know, four months, six months. And I enjoyed the liveness, the interactivity, the stream, the chat going like crazy. There's aspects of it I really liked. I never felt like, for me, and this is me because I'm a person, I never felt like I was connecting into the Twitch community. Like who they were, how they thought, what they were. I enjoyed some of the feature sets, but I never really understood... them as as an individual like like tell me a little bit who who are they are you know the average gamers like what 30 hardcore gamers like 37 something like that male yeah mid-30s which most people still think it's 13 year olds it's not it's yeah it's mid-30s so who are who are these people what are they interested in how do you really connect with them

It was just like any different area. They're going to be all over the place and what they're interested in. And one of the things I think they are interested in is connecting with people. and being seen and heard. So it really is about building relationships. And one of the things that I try to do is validate people when they come in, whatever they're saying, whatever they're talking about, I am interested in what they're talking about. And so that's part of it is if I'm not interested in them, why would they be interested in me? and watching me so so it really has to in my mind I mean now you get to the really giant streamers who have thousands of people you can no longer do this on that level you have to hand it over to mods in your chat the moderators the people who are the culture keepers of your community. They're the safety. If you're thinking church language here, it is your usher, your greeter, your bouncer, your deacon, elder, all rolled into one person or a handful of people who are there every time you are assembled to make sure everything happens smoothly the way it's supposed to. And streamers need that the same way. a church needs all of those people helping out with that role as well when people are gathering in person so you have that within there and so you get people from every walk of life one of the things that i love within it is there are people that i would never run into in a physical space who are in twitch And that could be for a lot of different reasons. There are the people that are in the group of socially awkward or social anxiety that are going to be on Twitch and they're safe because they are behind a screen. So you and I are on a screen. They can leave us at any moment if they feel uncomfortable. They can share with us if they're uncomfortable. They can do all of those things from a safer place for them to engage than going out in physical. And there's lots of reasons why people might choose to do that or need to do that for their own safety. If they've had abuse, they've had other things, you know, the world can be a very difficult place. Then there's those people who, if they're looking for Christians, and I love this group, but I don't always know who they are. They don't always talk in chat, but like what's going on in other places around the world right now, like Iran. I have Iran show up every once in a while because I can go see what countries people are looking at. I have the Middle East pop up in my stream regularly that says I have 1%, 2% watching me from closed countries. They don't identify themselves in the chat. I don't know who they are. They are not telling me that, but they are finding Christian content. in a platform that their country is not going to shut down because they don't know that Christian content is happening there necessarily. And so there's that group of people that's looking for Christians in the space and they're finding it in a gaming platform of all places. And some of the places like just chatting or podcast is also a category that I stream a bunch in are going to be places where they can go and look and I don't know if the tags are the same in every country, but you can put the tag of Christian on there so people can find you intentionally if they are looking for it. There's another big group of people that I run into, and that is people with disabilities. or parents of people with disabilities. Or the caretakers, I guess is a better way to say it. Not necessarily parents, but caretakers of people with disabilities. So I should say, one of my mods has limited mobility and accessibility and is home pretty much 24-7. Has a power chair, gets anxious if she has to go out because it breaks down. So if she leaves the house, is it going to break down? Is she going to be able to get... You're at the grocery store and back home. So she pretty much stays home. So in order for her to engage with people outside of the building that she lives in, you know, a couple of neighbors that she might talk to, she's got to do it online. And so she she is because of mobility limited to access with people face to face. But online, all those barriers are gone. there there is no distinction between her and other people in the chat she gets to fully be engaged in a way that she doesn't get to in a physical environment and another one is a caretaker of of a kid with some disabilities and so stay at home mom that doesn't get a lot of social interaction all the time unless it can come to her and be part of her daily while it's you know I like to talk about being in the palm of your hand by thinking about it being on a phone because you have connections to people in the palm of your hand or behind a screen and they're there. You're able to engage. She's fully engaged. You know, we connect on a regular basis. And so there's those groups of people on top of all the gamers who are just going to be in the space. So it's like it's such a broad thing. It's like, who are you trying to reach in that space and how are you trying to help them?

That's so good. There was one of the comments, Methos again, people do like to be heard. If you don't read the chat, they leave really quickly. And ironically, Methos said that a while ago, and I'm just finally getting it on there. So, Methos, I'm sorry.

Well, I didn't give you much gap in there.

You didn't breathe much in that stretch right there, which is fine. It's fine. But how, which is interesting because, you know, Twitch is, I would consider Twitch a one-way platform. Yeah, Methos comes back. He's still here. So thank you, Methos, for sticking around through that. We've got some others from Matthew as well. We'll get to in a second. But what was interesting is, or my question is more centered around Twitch is a one-way, I consider Twitch a one-way broadcast, like YouTube. I'm broadcasting, there are people that are watching, Methos and Matt and others that are watching live, and some of them put in comments, which is great, but it's mostly me monologuing or dialoguing with someone, and the audience really isn't heard, but it's interesting, like Matthews, or Methos, excuse me, is painting this picture of a dialogue, and you're talking about dialoguing uh with with chat which is unique uh and and twitch is maybe unique than some of the other platforms and how uh engaging twitch uh the chat is so maybe speak a little bit to that

Yeah, it's so like we've got a few comments that have come in, but we haven't like just stopped and let's just reach out and let's just engage and let's just have a dialogue conversation going back and forth. But that is common in Twitch that I might read a Bible passage and then spend the next half hour. just chatting with what chat is saying reading what chat says responding what chat says and the next person sharing of their thoughts adding to the conversation and you might even have two or three side conversations that are also happening at the same time that have nothing to do with what's going on on stream they might have something to do with what's in the background hey do you see what the fish is doing over there hey how many fish do you think are actually back here have you ever counted all the hats like you can just have all these side tangent conversations happening simultaneously but i think it's really how do you make it because if you are not engaging and this is a common thing that like i try to to help brand new people figure this out is you need to talk like there's someone there and you need to engage anything that comes up and you need to invite people while nothing is happening because like on the radio if it's dead air then they're going to turn the channel and go somewhere else. So if I'm not engaging chat and talking about it and inviting that, it's kind of like if you've ever preached in front of a crowd of 100 people, there's a comfort level there versus if you're expecting 400 people to show up and you have four people. It is really hard to preach to a room of four people. It is so much harder to do that. But I have to treat four people like it's a room that's filled with 80% capacity, whatever that is of the room. I have to treat it that way. I have to approach it that way. If I have dead air, people aren't going to engage. Are there not going to be, you know, like if I'm disappointed that there's only four people in the room when I'm preaching, they're going to know it and feel it. So it's the same as if I'm going live streaming and I'm disappointed there are four people who are watching. I was like, I'm sorry, I'm waiting for the crowd to show up. When they get here, I'll start talking to you. No, you start when you start. There's also, I think, a rhythm that you begin to get. the more that you stream. And some people are going to always show up when you go live. If you go live the same time, the same, you know, if it's once a week and that's all you do, but you're going for four or five hours, they will know and remember and put it into your schedule just the same way they would on a television program as they used to get dropped on the same day. And that's all you got to see. So they would be there. They know when the program's on, but sometimes, actually more beneficial to stream more often and to, and then there's also the streaming longer also engages more people. So if, and I know you were doing the podcast over there, which, you know, the episodes are usually half hour or an hour and that's it. I actually have higher numbers in the third hour than I do in the first and the second hour when I'm streaming. So my numbers will continuously. Oh, sorry. I lost audio from you.

Hey, that may be my problem. Can you hear me now?

I got you now.

Okay. Yeah. So finally some feedback came across. Yeah. Methos, I found it. Methos, I found it before you told me. Evidently I was muted. I have no idea. I didn't touch the mute button, but somehow I muted myself. So my fault.

Well, I have had in the last two weeks, and I think there is probably an update somewhere in there for Windows or something where I'll like just happen.

I'll be in the middle of a conversation in a call and my audio would probably disconnect.

So I don't know what's causing that. I'd probably use a new program and hopefully get around whatever that is. But sometimes OBS, Twitch, Microsoft aren't all communicating and talking with each other.

There's always a conflict somewhere. You know, it was funny. I actually, I quoted, I actually quoted like a scene while I was muted from Tim Burton's Batman, Jack Nicholson talking to Kim Basinger, because that's always my go-to when I'm stalling. But I'll have to save that for a different day because I was muted. And so you all don't get to hear the scene. I even, I did the little like wing flap that Jack does in the scene, but no, you don't get that today, ladies and gentlemen. Hey, so shifting a little bit, I got a quote here from Matthew. Layton is the goat of Bible reading. Wow. You know what? I didn't know this. I didn't know you were the goat. I even got sound effects here for the goat. How do you like that? Yeah, so goat. That's nice. Tell me, what does this mean, like the goat of Bible reading?

I'm guessing he's saying the greatest of all time, but I don't know. I mean, I don't know everybody that I'm being compared to. I would love to say I'm the greatest one on Twitch, but I also know a lot of pastors who are on Twitch who also do Bible reading, some just a once-a-week thing or some as a beginning piece before they spend time gaming. I don't know if anyone else. fully set out to read the Bible in a year on Twitch. And this will be my third year of doing it. So every year, every other year I read through the Bible in a year on Twitch. And then the other year in between I take, and I just go, here's what we're going to read. So last year I did Friday favorites and I just picked a favorite book of mine. And then I would read that book and we'd spend a lot of time in it. And I often do Torah Tuesday. That seems to come around every year. So if you want to read the Torah, the first five books of the Old Testament, come on, hang out on Tuesdays.

Torah, Torah, Torah Tuesday. So, like, what is the response? What is engagement? Like, what is the community doing as you're reading this scripture on Twitch? Are they commenting? Are they reading it? Like, what does that even look like?

It could vary from passage to passage on whatever is going on. So Twitch created a few years ago the tag Christian. And I use that. My name, you know, Flatcap Dapper Pastor on Twitch also has pastor in the name. And partly that was like my choice to do that. Not every streamer. who is a Christian in the space is a Christian streamer. Some are streamers who are Christian, and that's a different distinction there of I'm going to be a streamer, and then when people find out I'm Christian, I'm not hiding it. We'll have a conversation about it, but I am not going to do devotions and those things on my stream. I'll do those in my Discord. I'll do those in private. We're not going to do that on stream, which is a different approach. But there's those people as well who are repping Christ as what they're doing. When people ask questions, they're ready to give an explanation for the hope they have. I'll have people who have Bible knowledge and I'll have people who have no knowledge whatsoever. I've had Muslims. Actually, I have a Muslim from Spain who came into the channel multiple times last year, who also was in the stream a couple of times with my Sikh buddy from Denmark. Call him Nico the Dane. He hangs out. He'll hang out for a month or so and then he'll disappear. Then he'll come back. And so he's a Sikh. It's like, we're taught to study all religions. So I'm going to study the Bible with you. I don't know a lot about it. I want to learn. The Muslim came in multiple times. I'm not the only streamer that he found. And then he started having conversations with Christians he knew in person.

And then I want to say late last fall, he came back and said, hey, I got baptized on Sunday. I want you to know that.

I was just someone that was planting seeds and watering who was exposing him to the Bible where in his normal circles in person, being a Muslim, he did not have a safe place to be able to engage or start a conversation. Once he was cured, he went and found those.

would would you say your string because you're tagging christian and actually i know guys like jade and some other streamers don't tag christian and aim for for a much uh a non you know are much more missional aiming for a non-christian so like i know that you can play both sides of the coin with the platform for you specifically are you aiming your your community more towards a christian than in helping them go deeper getting them closer to jesus or are you aiming it at a non-christian someone who does not know jesus you know you may be getting both but i'm just curious like how you handle that balance

Yeah, I know that you were mentioning JT, who's fantastic, and he's been around for many years. I think I have actually been in person more times with JT than anybody else I know in the Twitch space. Oh, that's funny. Because for a while there, it was two or three times a year that JT and I were in the same place going to the same event. So that was fun. But JT aims to have at minimum 50% non-Christians in history. yeah i'm aiming more towards the people that maybe grew up and they just life has happened and they're not going to church anymore but they were exposed to being a christian as a child maybe maybe they took steps of faith but they're not living their faith they're not walking in their faith or they just have never figured out how to fit daily time with god into their lifestyle so i'm really aiming for the if you want to say the unchurched so if you're going to church on sunday and you just want to hang out and do bible i'm fine with you being there you're not my full target audience i really want to aim at the person who has never read the bible fully they know of the bible they know some bible stories they've not really applied it to their life and i want them to be excited about the bible and engaging the bible and then trying to figure out what their next step of faith is so if that's starting from hey it's good back in relationship with god i haven't done that for a while let's let's let's see you know how i can apply prayer to my life and bible time i want to help them be able to do that And that does lean it to a level of which it sounds kind of weird, but like we will go really in depth, but it's not like we're going in depth so that you gain knowledge. We are going in depth because it's about being excited about the Bible and being excited about God. And so it's just that reflection of trying to say, this is really, you know, I think the most fascinating book I've ever read. And it's actually the only book I've read more than once. I don't understand people that read the same book over and over again. It's like, I read it. I know what happened. I put it aside. I probably don't even finish half of the books I start to read. I get something valuable out of it, and I put it aside. But I can't stop going back to the Bible and reading it again and finding something new and getting excited about things. And that's where I get people from all walks of life. I even have some Jewish friends who off who are like yep you're talking torah tuesday i'm hanging out but when you're doing the gospel uh you know on another day of the week they may or may not show up but they will bring jewish insights that i have no idea about and it it helps uncover things uh about scripture so it's really about getting people excited about scripture whether they have never been exposed to it or they've gone to church you know growing up and now they're they're farther away from god and then there's those people's like hey they're just trying to help build community they're trying to be christians in the space and i'm trying to do that more in discord than i am on my stream so i'm trying to build the relationships with fellow streamers

uh through tcd through other discord communities and help empower encourage and lift them up which you know is part of what my podcast is trying to do too yeah let's by the way before we get there matthew uh says you're the goat because to get clarity to this it's the way he breaks the text down while reading and also how he interacts with people in the chat while reading and so uh matthew giving you some some praise here for that since since you are now the goat I got this, this was a Christmas gift from my son. And so last Christmas, he gave me the world's tiniest violin. And so.

Oh, I. Oh.

Say what?

Mine doesn't, mine has an actual bow to be able to play it yourself. Yeah. And it has the whole carrying case too.

Yeah, that's this one. My daughter, I'm showing off here. My daughter went to the Sherlock Holmes Museum in London. She wants to go to school in London. And if you watch the new Sherlock Holmes, this is the Stradivarius. And so it's got the thing, it doesn't make noise. But I have, you know, these are my fidget cubes. You know, I don't actually have a... Actually, I do have a fidget cube here. My son gave it back to me. He steals it from me every once in a while. But these are the things I play around with when I'm trying to stay focused. So hey, there you go. So hey, congratulations on being the GOAT. But let's talk... Distraction over.

Focus, Jeff. I love to go down a distraction for a while. If you don't watch my stream, I will go down. So on the violin thing, the reason why I ended up with that is I think the very first app that I put on my smartphone when I finally had a smartphone that had apps. was the world's smallest violin app and when my kids would start complaining about something i would just pull it out push play and it would just start playing it the latest upgrade of the my phone no longer supports that app oh gosh

here when i upgraded my phone but i had that app since my very first smartphone and so my kids are pretty happy that i no longer have it that's funny that that is that is really funny maybe one of the first apps i used to torture my kids was uh is it a hot dog and uh yeah you would take it would it was a camera and so you'd take a photo of anything and then the app would tell you if it was a hot dog or not I paid 99 cents for, is it a hot dog? And it was the best. Oh my gosh. I tortured my kids with, is it a hot dog? Over the years. Good times. Thank you for that. Well, I mean, you're doing a stream for three hours. And so it's all about, I mean, the tangents all day long. That's great. Somebody gave us a thumbs up as we were talking about, is it a hot dog? So I paid off. Somebody in YouTube land likes what we're talking about. So talk to me about the podcast. You're doing a new podcast, a new stream. The Church Digital, we launched the TCD streaming network. And so now you're doing a stream called Control-Alt-Redeem. A little playoff, Control-Alt-Recover, which I love. We may get into that here in a little bit, but Control-Alt-Redeem. Talk to me a little bit about that. You've been doing stuff for a while, and so maybe what were you doing? What are you shifting into? Give me the background.

Yeah, it's a it's a relaunch rebrand. So I think like a year ago, we weren't having this conversation yet about podcasting and doing that. But we were starting to have conversations. You know, maybe it wasn't quite this early in this year, but early when we were starting to get ready for the first ever. conference that we did, it was like, hey, we've got Twitch. We haven't used it for a while. What would we do with it? And then it was like, hey, would you like to take the Church Digital's channel? And what would you do with that? And it was like, well, to me, it made sense to talk to people who were on Twitch. And so to bring in and do that, so I wasn't even, you know, maybe to begin with thinking a podcast, but it was, it became that very quickly when we started having the conversation. I was like, okay, so I, you know, I, as one of my roles in the church digital is being an outpost leader in gaming. So anybody that comes into the church digital, that's getting connected in any way that wants to talk gaming, I'm the guy to talk to you. I'll point you in the direction of anybody else that's doing gaming stuff, all that to help you be able to get better. So I was already, working in that realm and it was hey there's a bunch of people that I started seeing and I had for a while that don't necessarily get accolades they don't get celebrated they don't get to share their story about things but every once in a while I would hear people get to tell their story of here's how I got started on Twitch here's what's happening in my community and I just wanted to take those friends of mine And I keep building it. My list of friends on Twitch just keeps growing. And I was like, I wanted to celebrate the Christian streamer who was on Twitch, whether they were a Christian being intentionally Christian in the space, or they were a streamer who was intentionally being Christian in the space. But they were trying to take the culture of Twitch, which at times can be really, really toxic. And they wanted to change the culture there, reset the culture and redeem the space. And so there's already people who are doing this. I just want to highlight the people that are already doing it. I want to celebrate what they're doing. So I just thought, hey, let's bring on some friends of mine. We'll talk for a couple of hours and then they'll introduce me to a game because most of them are gamers. They'll introduce me to a game that I'll be horrible at. And so I'll play that for an hour for the first time ever, and I'll be miserable. Everybody can poke fun of me. We can have a good laugh. And so that's how it started. So it was just the Church Digital Gaming Outpost podcast. Like, as generic a name as you can say, that if you're not inside of the Church Digital, you don't even have any idea what this is or what it would be. So it really didn't happen. any kind of like if you came across it on a list of podcasts you wouldn't go oh i'm curious what that is you would go yeah that doesn't sound very exciting i don't know what that is but i'm not and it was okay because it was just like i knew going into it i don't maybe i don't maybe the stats wrong but i thought i had heard somewhere that the average podcast doesn't make it to 10 episodes yeah that's that's one of the big hurdles Yeah, so I was like, okay, I'm going to do this, but we're not publishing it. I mean, I'll go live on Twitch and all of that. We're not publishing it until I've got 10 of these in the bank. Like, I've got to make it to 10 or else there's no need to put these out anywhere. I think by the time I got to 10, I had figured out the whole third hour gaming together just did not work with my system. trying to do the podcast and do live and then do the gaming and someone introducing it and then they wouldn't give me enough of a heads up on oh you had to also in order to get into an actual game you had to load download not just the game but you had to download another thing so that you could find partners to game with in this other and i hadn't done that i was like it just became complicated on needlessly and i was like all right the conversation's enough we're just going to focus on that and so it's really become like a both and for the people who come on it i am seeing them and i'm validating what they're already doing by coming on my podcast, they feel I'm validating them, but I'm like, you already are valid. That's the reason I'm having you on the podcast is because I already see in you what God is doing. I already know that God is using you. I just want you to get on and be able to share your voice to this, to bless other people who do not know what's going on on Twitch, who do not know that there are Christians in the space or who might be thinking about it. And it's like, I had people and it was like not always them directly. And I actually just had this with a conversation last Monday with someone I'm trying to schedule on. He's like, you have no idea what you're doing for other people in the space. You have no idea what you like. You will never know the influence. I'm like. I don't need to. I've got enough points that God's saying, you get to keep doing this and you don't get to stop. And so I'm super happy with that level of it. But I know the reality of being a pastor is I will never know the impact I might have on people because you can show up as a guest one time and I never see you again. And that's kind of the way that, I don't know if we've ever talked about this. I don't know if I'd ever shared that I had started in ministry doing drama ministry. That's how I got started in ministry.

What does that mean? What is drama ministry?

So my church had a drama cast. So if you go back in the day, like Willow Creek would have.

Okay, so like you would do like the dramas in church that would tie to a sermon or something.

Yep, they would tie to the sermon or the theme for the month. And so that's how I got started. And one of the things I always told people is like, you might be here to just bless one person today. So do not judge the audience's response to what you think should be happening because we might be bringing the message for one person and we bring a different message in a different way than the pastor is. So we don't compare each other. We just come in here to be faithful to what God has given us to present. And so that's what we're going to do. And so that's kind of, I think, the basis of everything I've ever done in ministry goes back to that idea. is I don't know the one person that needs the message today, but I have to bring the message so that one person hears it. And it might even take the Holy Spirit five more years and a hundred more people of water in that seed that gets planted before you see the growth, and you probably won't see that. So it's not the most encouraging from one standpoint, but it puts it in the being faithful is the important thing, not the outcome we can see and measure, which I think really lent itself to how I view digital ministry and how I can be excited about it when I may have people that lurk in my stream and never say anything, and I'll never know if I made an impact on their life.

Yeah, I mean, the hope would be at least, The Church Digital, like I did the TCD podcast. This is episode 371. So I've done, you know, 300 of these. That's amazing, yeah. Yeah, and it's the same thing. I started with Ray Diarmus. Pastor Ray Diarmus was my co-host. And he didn't think we'd get past 10. He's like, yeah, you'll probably. He was challenging me to do it, but he's like, do like a season of six and call it done. And 371 later and still going strong. But for me, and similarly, I've been amplifying, validating, inviting things that have already happened. It's funny, we talked about Jade. Jade's been on. maybe three or four times as he's kind of shifted ministry and focus and learning things along the way. He's been a pretty regular voice on here just because he's a guy that I know in that space and I spent a lot of time with in person as well as online. But... what what has been fun is is a to to give credibility to the you know to the jates that are out there doing the thing they're doing and jade at this point doesn't need my credibility but um what has gone beyond that is now for to amplify what jade's doing for the next generation to amplify you know what you're doing um and what your guests are doing to now encourage that next group of people to uh to launch into to uh to to and encourage to to empower them to do the ministry and so i i just i love that you i mean that you understand the culture in a way that i don't and i don't i'm never claimed to be a a twitch guy i'm not a gamer i'm i'm I'm not, you know, I play an iOS game.

I never set out to be a Twitch streamer. In fact, Alice in the Palace was my first follower, and she followed me six months before I even streamed because Pastor Brock said, go follow him. He's going to stream. And I said, no, I'm not. Why would I want to do that? And six months later, they finally talked me into streaming, and I'm like, what am I going to do?

I'll do the Bible. That'll shut you guys up.

You're going to show up for me doing the Bible? I don't think so. And they did.

So that was not Alice, Queen of Hell. That was Alice in the Palace at that moment.

I think she still had the old name when I first met her.

But it was after she found Christ.

But it was after she found Christ that she followed me, yes.

That's great. I mean, there's a whole background story between Pastor Brock and Jay and Alice in the Palace.

See, this is just a plug for other episodes. Go back and listen to the backlog. There's some good episodes, and you'll hear more about Alice's story. That's not for today.

Did you have Alice on your show? Or did you talk about that with her?

No, I have not had Alice. She hasn't been streaming for a while that I know of. So she did do some streaming for a while and then she didn't stream. But there's also a piece of this which goes to the rebranding. So I think I was really successful in the first half that I wanted to validate the people doing it and I wanted to celebrate their stories. But there's also a piece that the name didn't help. And that was for a person to necessarily go to their pastor or someone at their church saying, hey, I think God's calling me to this. Hey, come listen to this podcast where people are talking about what I think God's calling me to do. And you're like, yeah, I'm not going to go listen to that. I don't think that's the right thing. So I'm hoping with the rebranding that it will be able to get in front of people who have not yet run into the Christian Twitch streamer. who are feeling, I might be called to do this. Or they are convinced they need to, but they need to go to their pastor, their parent, whoever it is, and say, look, what I'm feeling called to do is valid ministry. The Holy Spirit is calling me to do it. And they, for age or otherwise, they just need to be able to share with other people that what their God-given calling might be is actually valid and they can go do it. what they probably hear from people in their sphere saying, you need to get a real job and quit living in your mom's basement and go out and do something. You got to get out from behind the screen and you can do ministry in the church, but you can't do it online. And I want to help those people be able to go to their support network and say, no, there's real people already engaged. God's just calling me as one. going to the mission field, and I get to do that right here, and I get to go to a place I love, and I get to go to a people that I love. And so they're hopefully – that's the goal of this next phase of season two of the rebrand is so that it will be able to – be promoted by those people to their support networks and get in front of some who will see it and go, wait a minute, I know the person that's supposed to go do this. And they'll connect. So it's trying to really put it out there and let the algorithms get in front of the right people so those people God's called. Like we're talking about next gen who's not yet streaming and not yet a Twitch streamer and not a Christian Twitch streamer. They're being raised up and we're praying for the workers for the harvest. And this is one step I'm trying to take to help prepare and equip those people for the harvest.

Yeah, I love all of that. And as a guy who was told in my 20s, when are you going to get a real job? know my father my father is very supportive of what i'm doing now my father 20 years ago was not you know we've had the conversation he's actually been on something or other we had him on the giving tuesday maybe a couple years ago but um like they they were he was because he didn't understand it You know, and in many ways, I created the Church Digital to be that support system because there was no support system. And in many ways, you're talking about denominations and the crazy guy talking.

digital and streaming like there is still no real so yeah you you started that conversation way before i did you know with people probably not even having a clue at what anything could be because it was so far back so i yeah I'm happy to be the old crazy guy in the corner, but I want to prepare the generations coming behind to not have to face what we had to face.

Are you older than me? I'm 48. Are you in your 50s?

53.

53. You are older than me. Okay, you're the grandpa. Jason, is Jason younger than you, JMO?

I don't know how old Jason is. I would think he's younger than me, but I don't know for sure.

Yeah, that's interesting. Jason's got kids older. I mean, not that kids are the metric, but Jason's kids are older than mine. I put him around 51, I bet, 52. He's not too far away from you.

Yeah, we're all in that same ballpark, Jason and I, I'm sure.

Old bald guys. I was trying to think. Yeah, you've still got some hair. I saw you once not wearing a flat cap, and I was like, I didn't know what to do. I could not reconcile what was happening in that moment.

well i get i get questions every once in a while when i will post something and i don't don't have a flat cap on because i do have this redeem on my stream so if you you watch me long enough on twitch you get points you get to spend on making me do stuff like i was matching the t earlier i did this for one of my mods because when i would change hats which is the thing that i let people do like you can pick a different hat and i'll i'll switch that she would get all excited and the good hair the good hair and go on incessantly about my hair for about 20 minutes and i'm like oh my goodness so while i was doing streamiversary and i'm like i want to give my mod something because i appreciate her so i'm gonna have a five minutes with no hat she's gonna be able to redeem no cap for five minutes and oh my goodness it was like i gave like the dog red meat and it would just became this thing and it's so i have to limit how often that happens and how often it can go on but like she just gets so excited and spends her points and then one of the other mods loves that that i get all you know kind of agitated like i i was in the middle of something and now you gotta make me take the hat off but i'll post videos that are nice clips that just so happened when i had no hair or no hat on and people are like what's your hat where'd it go like i i watched the video was on your your channel but it couldn't have been you because you didn't have a hat on so i don't know what was going on you should know there's there's fun in that

Yeah, you should totally do like an AI version where you're bald. You know, you've got like the cone heads from like the 70s, the SNL skit, like just do something really freaky.

The closest I've done to that is April Fool's Day. If it happens to fall when I'm streaming, I will remove all of the flat caps. And I will replace it with other hats. And so there will be no flat caps on April Fool's Day. So if you're coming in on April Fool's Day, you won't see a flat cap. So, you know, you just create things with your community. They become inside jokes. They become all that. So that's one of the things that, like I said, it's really all about relationships with your community and your people. And you allow them ownership. of your stream as well. And then they'll keep coming back because they want to, because it is their stream as well. It's not just your stream. It's also, it's part of their community as well.

Yeah, that's good. Alice in the palace jumping on here. Much love. Hope you're having a great day, evening. Alice is in London. So what is that? Like nine, nine 30, 10 30.

Now her time, maybe I think it's six hours ahead. So 1130, 1130. Yeah.

alice go to bed um or not uh let's see did you see the streamer that showed his head uh it was super indented for many years of headphone wear that's that's funny yeah oh wow i uh not london i'm sorry alice i did know this i i said london my daughter is going to call it wants to go to college in london but no i know you are uh uk in general so alice uh actually if you're alice's story made it into my uh my book on vr church um you know i can't remember the name of that book that's that's embarrassing vr in the metaverse church um The book that basically went invalid like three months after I wrote it because Microsoft shut down all space VR. Yeah, that's a thing. You know, talking about indents, I wear my glasses up here on the top of my head like a lot. It's just kind of my go-to. And the nose things do like a double imprint on my head all the time. But, you know, when I wear hats, back in the day, my hair would get messed up. But I never have that problem now. I never have hat head. Hat hair. Whatever I would say that. um hey so you're doing the podcast stream uh what days times when like i know you're are you already going like what's the what's the end yeah yeah

So as I was mentioning, one of the reasons I game on Mondays is so there's always something as a set schedule on Twitch. So I game from 2 to 4 on Mondays. I've recently been playing Claire Obscure 33. It's kind of an RPG, and you kind of don't know what's going on. My son recommended it to me, and I'm enjoying it very much. I've been playing that one and just progressing in it, but I will then tell you when the podcast for the week is. And I've done a couple of two, two in one week. I think one time I just weird schedule.

And I was like, I did three of them in one week, but typically I game one day on the church digital on Twitch.

And then. podcast one day the church digital but i set the podcast for the guests time slot and community to be able to be there because with twitch you can do co-streaming so you and i would be on you'd be on your channel i'd be on my channel we're both streaming to our communities at the same time so we have a larger group that's actually watching us together instead of if they have to leave your community to come to me and they don't know me some are gonna miss it some aren't gonna see you live yeah So it really has become a fun thing to do in that way. And some guests will say, no, I want to focus on the podcast. They don't stream themselves. They'll just join me. So you show up on Monday. You'll find out when the stream is for the week. If I'm on vacation, we know I'll let you know ahead of time. We'll take the week off. but the with the relaunch just went of season two i've got about four or five episodes in the can so then every tuesday a new episode will get released so every tuesday so there was a new episode that came out today annika's cakery was the first one of season two and i love it because i kick off season two with somebody else that's not playing games well she does have a channel for games but she bakes cakes and decorates cakes on there and it's a fantastic story of how did she get started and what does she do and the community that she's built built and the people that she's reached because just like what you know like just like for a while like um the cake boss was a really big thing well there's there's no more episodes Actually, I want to say three or four people that I know on Twitch that bake cakes and decorate cakes and they do it on stream. And people are wanting to be engaging and all of that and join that community and watch while it's happening. So. So those episodes will come out every Tuesday. There'll be a new episode going forward. And by having four or five episodes ahead before they get released, if I go on vacation, if something happens, I'm not trying to take large breaks in between when all those are happening. And as I bring people on, I'm actually, I don't think I told you this. I was talking about it with Andy. I have a thought of a little shift. So the plan for March is Mods March. So non-Twitch streamers. I'm going to talk about being a mod on Twitch for Christians in the community. How are they bringing the love of Christ as a non-streamer in the space? Because mods are really, really important. So I'm trying to work that out and get that together. So I want to focus specifically on those who never stream and have never streamed or primarily they're not a streamer. They're just someone who helps the community. And I want to talk about how did you get started, do a panel discussion. So that's what I'm thinking about. for March and trying to get that lined up. So.

No, I love that. You're highlighting kind of the behind the scenes people, which have a completely separate calling and a completely separate, you know, profile and identity. And, and, uh, and there, there are people out there that are, that are probably called or could be called to do that, but just don't even know that that's, that's a thing to be a community builder like that.

Several of them. And I don't want to put names out there because I don't know if they'll be on the podcast or not. I'm working through that. But there's a couple of them that mod for five, six, seven different channels. So they're not just in one channel. They'll go from my channel in the morning or someone else's channel in the morning. And then they'll go to another Christian streamer in the middle of the morning. And then they'll go to another Christian streamer in the middle of the afternoon. And some will do that all day long. And they have different levels of being a mod. Some will just be, I'm in the chat and I'm here all the time. So I've been made a mod so that if no one else is here, I can join it. And some are like, no, I'm here every time the streamer goes live because this is my community. And I'm going to participate in every way that God is calling me to do that in the space.

Totally. So you're doing this on... My wife just came home with the kids and the dogs are going nuts over there. So if you hear that, sorry. I would yell, but I don't want to do that. So your podcast releases Tuesday. I think my stream releases on Thursday or Friday. And DeMarcus is doing... DeMarcus will be on Thursday every other week. Thursday every other week. So then mine is released Friday. That's right. And so DeMarcus is doing a show. I wanted to be on the show here. Wasn't able to make it through the scheduling. It would have been great to have him. Yeah, we'll have him on at some point. But he's doing the Digital Pavement podcast. and so looking at an african-american uh view and perspective of digital and how to use digital to engage in the african-american communities and um what's the urban ministry as well being urban uh under resourced city kind of view as as well and so um you know once again a completely different perspective and a completely different um, viewpoint than, than what, you know, I'm going to be able to do sitting in my comfortable office, talking into my computer and in my little chair here. Uh, but I love the fact that, you know, we've got to Marcus on, uh, and there's going to be some others that will, will, will debut here in the coming months. Just today, I was having a call with somebody, and I was like, yeah, you need to think about doing this. And so we'll see what happens. Hopefully, we'll get some more voices and more perspectives, even at a global level.

Go ahead. You've been hinting at that since October or November that we're going to. And not everything is fully worked out. I mean, I came on last year doing this, not knowing if it was going to work out for me to do a podcast. And I feel like I'm getting better and I'm getting my footing. And I at least hope that that comes across that I'm doing that. But then it's also how do we give voices to other people as well? I'm taking on gaming. DeMarcus is a whole different venue where we're talking about some other. know series where we might bring in guests on or or do a takeover like we did years ago i think that's where we got the gaming going was we did a gaming takeover and we had a you know different connections in gaming for i don't know if it's five or six episodes of the podcast just in a gamer's takeover that's why we started the twitch to begin we were in that space and who knew years later that it was going to come back and be its own podcast so yeah there's going to be a bunch more i think by the time we get to the end of the year probably people we haven't even had conversations with we might bring on and think about having guest hosting here or there or maybe we create a new duo that goes and takes off i don't know i don't know what got with it

Yeah. You know, it's funny, like, and I mean this, I've even come up with another show I want to do. And so I could probably be conned into giving away this show or give away that other show. I don't know. But there's now it's funny. I've been I've been resting over the past month. uh with my surgery coming up we'll get into that in a little bit and and when i'm well rested i'm much more creative and and so like the the brain kind of like breathes and it just kind of flows out it's like we should do this and do this and i need to write this and create this and and like it and it's just you know go go go go go and and so now it's trying to figure out how to execute all those things and and to quote my doctor just don't die before uh january 15th so uh you know right now it's the 13th i'm 48 hours away from from being probably done with my surgery at this point and uh so yeah that's a thing um but hey thanks uh thanks for layton for being on on the show here what's up

Oh, I was just going to say, with that whole being more creative when your mind is rested, I don't know if you know this, but if you notice in, and I like saying the Hebrew Bible because it's the Old Testament and it was written in Hebrew, so in the Hebrew scriptures, it was evening and morning. That's the direction, not the way that we think in a modern time of day is first and night is afterwards. So if you think about it from the perspective of you rest before you get up for the day, you are starting from a place of rest. The problem with our modern society is we are often starting from a place of exhaustion because we work all day and we can't get to sleep and we get up in the morning and we aren't rested. But we're designed to start always from a place of rest. I feel privileged to have, I don't know, figured that out somewhere along the way. So I would know if I was in my office and it's two o'clock in the afternoon and I got a stack of things to do and I knew I was no longer going to be productive. I could work on those for the next three hours and get nothing accomplished. If I went and rested and came back the next day, I would have so much energy and focus to be able to accomplish in a half hour what it probably would have taken me five hours to do. So just an aside there, don't get away from that. Like really lean into rest is a good thing to do.

Yeah, that's a really good lesson there. And I know Pastor Coco on the screen here has been yelling at me in recent months about me needing more rest and more space. It's kind of like God knew what he was doing when he set up a rhythm of rest.

Yeah, okay.

All right, you know, the doctor, my wife, my kids, my audience, everybody's yelling at me. So I'm learning. I'm learning. I need to be more attentive in that. But I will. Yeah, Alice. Alice chimes in as well. Facts. Thank you. Even Alice from a different continent is chewing on me. But we will. The surgery is January 15th, so Thursday. Right now it's scheduled for 1 p.m. Eastern. That's a soft time. It may massage up or down. But 1 p.m. Eastern. Actually, I had my pre-op appointment today to go over with the surgeon's team, all the nurses, everything I need. And so I'll be in. I'll be in recovery for, in hospital, about five days, three to five days, and then at home, three to five days. So roughly probably about eight days, I'll be fine. And so Thursday to the following Friday, theoretically, take the weekend off to rest more. And so I'll be back the last week, hopefully the last week of January. uh and so um i mean there's never a good time to you know have a surgery but in in reality tcd is just ramping up and i'm gonna you know the team actually is handling a lot of details um and some of my other contract works that kind of like a still point and so me being out for a week is God's timing is, is not that, is not that bad. It's interesting. One of my, um, one of my very close friends, um, I say that one of my friends, a guy, but I've not really connected with over, um, probably five or six years. Uh, I used to do, I used to go to, we used to go to the same church and we're really close when we were together. He's actually having the exact same surgery like a week after me. And so, yeah, we spent a lot of time together, just kind of lamenting and supporting and praying you know through it because I mean literally same same hospital same not the same surgeon but a lot of the same doctors a lot of the same processes and so it's been fun being an encouragement for each other and like he even was texting me you know, how are you doing, what's going on, and today, which was really good, because I had a rough morning, just kind of, I'm a control freak, and I can't control this, and like, you know, it's like, okay, I trust God, and I do, I trust God in this, but the reality is, is like this morning, it was just kind of, it hit me like a ton of bricks. It's like, I can't do this. I can't control it. I'm not going to be like, I, it just, it was overwhelmed, um, by that. And so that comes in, in, in, uh, in spouts. And it literally was in the middle of, of one of those, um, one of the, one of those, you know, doubts. He's this guy texts me out of the blue. It's like, Hey, how are you doing? And I was like, what's funny you ask? And he's like, oh yeah, that was me last week. So it's good to know. Hey, thanks, Life Capture. Man, I hope you're doing well. I hadn't touched base with you in a while, but love you, miss you there. Hey, listen, pray for my surgery on Thursday and feel free, you know, hit me up on DM on WhatsApp or Discord if you want, or you can send me an email encouragement along the way. I'll stay tapped in, make my wife read all my stuff to me.

That'll be fun.

And then Leighton's show is already streaming now. I mean, you're streaming on Twitch when you do the recordings, but it's releasing on the Church Digital podcast stream. Like we have one podcast feed for all of this. And that is, Leighton, your show is Tuesdays when it releases at this point, right?

Yes. Yeah. So it releases on Spotify. It releases on YouTube at the same time, same day. So you can find it either place. I do suggest because this is me is listen to it at double speed or triple speed. You'll be fine. You know, don't listen at normal speed. You need to speed it up. I mean, it's plus hours a podcast. You will not offend me. Maybe maybe you'll make more of it if you listen to double speed anyway. So.

That's amazing. Double, triple speed. I can't do triple speed. I appreciate those who can't. Well, hey, we're going to wrap and we're going to call it a day. So episode 371 is in the can. For Leighton, this is Jeff with The Church Digital. Thanks for hanging out with us today and we'll see you next time on the stream. Y'all have a good one.

Later.