EP005: David Urzi & Defining the Online Pastor

Welcome back to From Text to Testimony. I am Andy. I'm one of your hosts and it is so so cool to be on episode five of this amazing new show that has been sponsored by Glue, partnering with Digital Church Network. And we're bringing you really a topic that John and I in episode four really broached the subject of, and that is this idea of mental health, the issues and kind of things that we're seeing when people bring mental health into the Glue ecosystem. When spiritual explorers text us and us as responders, really you're trying to respond in a proper way that helps the circumstance, that doesn't push people away, that encourages them, strengthens them, guides them, and ultimately gets them help. And then, you know, we want to plug them into Jesus, but that's a little bit further down the road.

And we were looking around and we've talked about this woman for a while, and we both have a good friend named Megan. And Megan is a licensed mental health coach. She is the care pastor and kind of connections pastor and next steps pastor. She kind of fulfills all of these roles for an amazing, amazing online ministry called Church Anywhere. And I wanted to bring Megan into this conversation today. She has a lot of wisdom in this area. She's been with Glue for, I think, three or four years, maybe two or three years. I don't know. Their church has been using Glue for years, and they are really one of kind of the OGs in the Glue ecosystem. They've been following and tracking and helping development and all that. We figured, yeah, let's bring her in. She's amazing.

And so this episode is part two of our mental health conversation. And I, the wisdom that she is able to bring, and her gentle manner, but also her like fire and her passion for really helping people that are dealing with mental health issues and struggles, and also the way that she guides them to relationships with Jesus Christ, is something that we're going to be talking about. And she's going to be on future episodes, so we'll get a chance to really dive in a little bit deeper. This is going to be more of an introduction with her and kind of what she's been doing, so y'all can learn her and kind of grow alongside of her.

Now, if this is the first time you're hearing about Glue, Glue is this amazing platform that allows you to connect with people all across the country—spiritual explorers—and you as a responder get to engage with them. And you can kind of reach them, and you really have all of these campaigns that are kind of coalescing under one roof. And that's what Glue is. This entire—I keep calling it an ecosystem—it really is. It's a system of connection, a system of engagement, a system of response that's allowing you as a pastor, ministry leader, church worker, you know, even just general responder. It's allowing you to connect with the people that really need help.

If this is the first time you're hearing of Glue, or if you want a little bit more information, you can head into the show notes or the comments or the video details below. If you're listening in an audio medium, you can click into the show notes and find out a little bit more about Glue, plus sign up for some awesome goodies there. But hey, without further ado, let's get all that out of the way, and I want you to sit back and get ready for an awesome conversation here in episode five of From Text to Testimony.

Well, we are back for episode five of From Text to Testimony, and as you heard from my intro just a little bit ago, we've got actually a fairly special new guest on, and that's the awesome and talented Megan Carter. Megan, thank you so much for joining us here on From Text to Testimony. I'm so excited to be here. I'm excited to have you. John and I have been talking you up. John Pile and I are both huge, huge fans of you, huge fans of what you're doing with Church Anywhere, but more than that, kind of huge fans of what you represent with Glue. Kind of you guys were one of the first major churches like jumping in on the Glue thing. So to kind of get a little bit of an intro, like tell me and tell our audience about you and kind of your ministry and all the things that make you who you are.

All the things? That's a lot. Um, how much time do we have? I mean, you know, thirty minutes, but like, let's go an hour and thirty minutes. Who cares? Okay, great. Yeah, um, no, I'll shorten it down. The condensed version. But no, my name is Megan Carter. Um, I currently work at First Capitol Christian Church. Church Anywhere depends on how you know us. It's confusing for everyone, um, but that's what it is. So it works well for us for right now, at least.

Um, so I work here. I am a next steps pastor. Um, that doesn't really tell you much, but basically it's I'm helping everybody find whatever their next step may be. So if that's walking into like finding Jesus and getting baptized, I'll help with that. Getting people connected after their baptism and kind of what's next with that. Um, we have what we call next step guides that people walk along with. Um, those have just been baptized, which is really cool. And then the goal is to get them into whatever their, you know, Jesus cause is. And so that's another piece of like helping people find, use their gifts and passions that God's placed in them to go out and be on mission. Um, so that's a big piece of what I do right now.

Um, my, I have been raised in church for my entire life. It's kind of the every time the door was open, I was there. Um, went through a lot of that and went to Bible College even to get my degree in worship leadership. That's what I thought I was going to be doing. Um, God had other plans, but everything kind of led up to where I'm at today, which is really cool. Um, he used my gifts and organization and all those pieces that fit so much better. But I still get to do the worship piece like being here at the church. So I love being able to do that. And who I get to work with here is always um just a pleasure, and it's a great team. So it's really cool to see. We actually just got back from a staff retreat, and um, it was an eventful one. We didn't know what we were going to do, so that was fun.

Um, and then we came back and we, I feel like we're in a really good place, which is awesome. Uh, so what do you mean you didn't know what you were going to do? Like water slides? Like snowballs? Like pickle ball?

Yeah, um, no, I have, I have retired from pickle ball, really, because the last time I talked to you, like you guys were getting after it during lunchtime. Yeah, I was playing every um week or every day we would play at lunch. And um, it was about April, right before Easter, and I popped my calf. We're not going to go into the whole details, but let's just say I was really close to um actually rupturing the whole thing. Dude, I'm super competitive. It's a problem. So um, I like to win. So um, I kind of give it my all. Um, yeah, so it's, I'm still recovering from that a little bit, so I just retired. Just stay away.

Wow. But uh, no, it's fun. So the retreat, we didn't know because uh, Tyler, our lead pastor, said you're not going to know anything about the retreat. Um, just pack and come. And we went to an Airbnb that was like on this like by this lake. It was really pretty. And um, he had all kinds of events for us, which they all made sense. They all went together and it built us together as a team, but not knowing was a little uneasy for sure.

I can imagine. Um, how long have you been with uh, I'm going to call it Church Anywhere just because, you know, we're in the digital area. How long have you been with Church Anywhere?

Um, so I've been on staff for five years. Okay. Uh, actually this month on the eighteenth. Um, so I started as a youth worship leader. And then I moved in so many. I think I was youth worship leader. I did the youth social media for a while. Then I jumped into children's ministry for like two seconds because COVID hit. And then I joined the digital team. And then I've been was an engagement pastor and now I'm next steps pastor. And it's digital, in person, all the things together. Um, so yeah, just in the last five years.

So you're a veritable church Swiss army knife. What's been your favorite position so far? Has it been next steps pastor?

I think so. I love what I'm doing, and it's really cool because I always look at like three avenues of what I get to do. Is next steps, which is, you know, guiding people through that. The causes piece, um, helping people find their gifts and passions that God's placed in them and go out and whatever that looks like. It doesn't just have to look like a, you know, a group of people going out and reaching like or inviting people into the church. It's you can go out. If you love baking, then you can go out and bake for your neighbors and finding that common interest. Um, so there's a lot of different ways that that can happen. It's kind of rethinking how we think of being on mission. And I love that piece. And then the third piece is my um passion, my cause, is the mental health area. And I went through different programs. I'm looking at doing some more next year because any information, any learning I can do, um, just to help people better. Um, because I have my own things that I've dealt with in mental health area, and I've worked through those. I've went to a counselor like all the pieces. Um, but if I can just gather more information to be able to be a good resource for people, that's my goal.

And so being able to meet with people either in person or online or through like a Zoom or something like that, um, has been really cool. And it's like I told somebody I think yesterday. I was like, it's like one of the most exhausting things but so rewarding. And I was like, I don't know how to explain that because like, I think I'm like kind of physically exhausted because like, you just, if you're sitting there and listening to people, it takes a lot out of you. You can't absorb that. So you do have to learn how to not absorb everything. But it's so rewarding when you have somebody talking about and they finally get it or it clicks. And it's not everybody. It doesn't always happen. But when you do have that, it's it's so good because I'm like, I've been there. I've been on the other side. And now that somebody else gets it, like that's what I want to do.

Yeah, that's uh, it's interesting. And it's good you said the mental health piece because we're, this is another part of our mental health series. We've been talking about as found in Glue as pertains to explorers and responders. And really how we can help both sides kind of manage expectations and mitigate any sort of damage that can happen because like, let's face it, when we're just using our phones, there's a lot of things that are unsaid. You know, there's a lot of uh, things we're reading into comments, and you talk about the exhaustion. I actually, I was having a conversation with somebody yesterday, and we were talking about churches and how physical churches, so you know, legacy churches, they have a tendency to move like cruise ships. We've all heard this analogy. It takes a mile to turn a cruise ship because you can't turn it too fast or else you throw somebody off. But digital, the digital ministry sphere that we live in, is like a speedboat. I mean, you're just constantly turning, constantly making changes, and all those other things. And trying to coexist, you know, you're floating the boundary. I'm floating the boundary here at Be Hope where I'm in digital and you're in digital, but we're also part of a legacy church. And so you kind of have to figure out where you can help and

where you can plug in and I guess my next question for you then as we roll into our texts section with Glue, what's your history with Glue?

Yeah, so we've been doing Glue for, man, I don't know, a long time. Like it feels like since the beginning. Yeah, um, it has changed a whole lot, like for the better. We give a lot of feedback to say, "Hey, maybe let's try this or let's make it searchable so we can find all the people we're assigned to." There we go, kind of things. Oh, it was so good when that came out. Yep. Um, but yeah, so we've been doing that for quite a while and there's been a lot of different changes too with like how they've connected and reached with people and the different, like, algorithms—I'm going to put it that way—but that send out to reach people. So like the sadness care or the church care is paid or like sadness or depression, like any of those, the different quizzes that they have now, um, is awesome to be able to just filter people through a little bit better so you have maybe a better knowledge when you start talking to them.

Um, but probably one of my favorite pieces that has been there since we started is the conversation prompts, like, "Here's some ideas to get it going." Yeah, and when you don't know where to go, especially if they give you like two words, you're like, "Okay, here's a prompt. Let's see what we get from here." But yeah, we've been doing it for a while and now we have a team that works together um to do it, which is awesome. Just kind of, I mean, one of ours is we're nationwide, so rather than just local, um, people do that differently, which it's what works for you, but we're able to kind of put a care team together for that and that's been like probably the best piece because it started off with just me and Tyler doing it and that was, that was, again, exhausting. Yeah, there's so many hurting people in this world and if we can help them, we try our best for sure.

So in terms of your team, is it volunteer? Is it staff members? Do you have lay leaders? Do you have pastors? Like, what's your team look like?

Yeah, so we have um some staff members. We have like Tyler, myself, um, my husband is actually on staff now. He kind of took the lead on that, which is awesome. Um, so he's doing that as well. We have a couple other pastors that do it, but then it really is people who it's their cause. Like they have a passion to help people and some of them are retirees, so like they have that time to put in and they really care for people. And um, so there's really a variety. We kind of hand selected some people, especially at the beginning, of people we've seen like you could see have the passion for that or you would like, they're really good a people person. Like they could really just talk and talk to this person to help them. And so we kind of just asked people and we're like, "Hey, would you want to do this?" And they're like, "What is that?" And we're like, "We're still learning too, but we will learn together." So no, it's been good. I think we've got like ten people on the team.

Oh wow, that's so it helps with being nationwide because and we also have like I think the unlimited numbers that come in, so it allows it to be spread a little bit more than like completely overwhelming like one or two people. Yeah. Um, so this is a, like I said, this is a mental health, uh, talk, a mental health topic that we're having, and I want to bring you back and talk about all sorts of other things, but I want, I want, I want to hone in specific on mental health. So typically what we do is we break up our episodes into a text section, a testimony section, and then a tip section. And so in our text section, we'd like to highlight one or two of those stories, kind of the beginnings of those stories, and then move into how you've seen God working. So do you have any stories that you could give us from the eons of work that y'all have seen?

Eons, I love it. Um, yeah, no, I've got like I started writing down and I was like, "Oh, this is way more than one or two," but love it. That's why we'll have more episodes, right? Absolutely, later on. But yeah, I think um there was someone who wrote in and basically they just wrote in and said, "My daughter, um, she's been doing things she shouldn't and wearing me down," and I was like, "Okay, well, I'm not sure what else to say at this moment," so one of those conversation prompts really helped get it going and we started to have a really good conversation back and forth. And I think that there's been a lot of people who have been really surprised. They're like, "Oh, there's actually a person on the other end of this," which is I'm just like, "Well, yeah, you wrote in. Like, why wouldn't there be?" But it's so surprising that people are just like, "Wow, like, you actually care and you want to talk to me?" And I'm like, "Well, yeah, I do."

Um, so with this person, like they kept going on and they talked about their, you know, daughter kept running off, and then they went into, you know, she deals with being bipolar and depression and anxiety and I think ADHD on top of all the things. Um, but didn't want to like take her medication that helps balance things out and balance those chemicals out so that was really hard for this parent to be like, "I don't like, I'm at wits end. I don't know what else to do," and they came on, you know, this texting and sent in and then had this conversation with me, which was um a really great conversation and it was, again, just that like, "I can't believe people care."

Yeah, yeah. Um, when you get a conversation like this that, uh, and we'll save some of the outcomes for the testimony section, but but I guess you, you are a trained mental health professional. Yeah, uh, you have certifications and you've done the, you've done the thing. Um, John and I were remarking last episode that we are not professionals. We're pastors first and foremost. You are a pastor as well, but you also have that kind of the lane to switch. How do you know when to switch lanes from, "Okay, I'm a pastor," to now I'm a counselor and a therapist, and then back to pastor, because it is two different ways of talking to people?

It is. Um, I think mine is a unique situation too because the way that I pastor people is probably more like a counselor. Okay, fair enough. That's good, good on you. So I think, I mean, that's just who I am. Like, I'll go, like, I have somebody I meet with and talk with about like in scripture and understanding it, and so like I'll talk through that, but it's also very much like, "I am who I am," and I like, I just want to have conversations with people and I love to go deeper. Like, I have social anxiety. I get it. So I understand when people are like, "Ah, I don't really want to do that," and I was like, "Yeah, small talk, not the best. I'm not the best at, but if we want to go deeper in a conversation, that's where I take it." So it is kind of like I take it as a pastor, but it's still like that counseling type of conversation and talking.

Yeah, yeah. Any other stories you want to share?

Yeah, um, so there was another um person who they wrote in and it was one of those kind of like generic ride-in that said, "I visited the church care sadness page and I wanted to talk to someone about depression," and I was like, "Okay, so why don't you share some of your story with me?" And I always like to lead with, you know, who I am. Um, I don't always lead with like that I work at a church or any of that. Like that comes later, um, if it needs to. Just so that they, I just don't want to put up a wall immediately, um, for me personally. And so I was like, "Yeah, like, let's, you know, chat. Like, share your story with me," because people love to talk about themselves. It's just a fact.

Oh yeah.

Um, but yeah, just getting to hear people's story and like really listening to what they're saying, and it's not always just with the words like they're typing, um, because you can kind of pick and choose and find those things within it. But I just kind of asked them and I was like, "Share your story with me and feel like whatever you feel comfortable with. Like, don't feel like you have to share every piece of it. Just share what you're comfortable with, and I'm basically a listening ear. Like, I'm here to chat." And I've found that the majority of people that I've talked to, you know, throughout the whole time we've been doing this, is they just need somebody to listen to them. It's people who feel, especially in the mental health area, it's people who feel like they're alone in their situation, that no one else is going through what they're going through. And I get it, 'cause I was there. Like, I felt that way growing up, and I was like, "No one else is going through this. Like, good Christians don't deal with anxiety or depression or anything." Like, that's the way that our mind, like, it brings us to this isolation. And that's what a lot of people I think are struggling with too is that they go into this isolation and then they do reach out and they just want somebody to listen to them. They just want somebody to talk with them. And sometimes they really do need extra help and to take that a couple steps further, but sometimes they just need that person to listen.

Um, so this person uh wrote in about that and we started having a conversation and found out that this person was actually local to us, so that was really cool. Um, and we set up a time and she actually came into the church and we started meeting. Um, so having those conversations face to face for me is so much better, and I'm able to do that a little easier too because of having the board certification mental health coaching. Um, so it gives me a little more credible, um, value, I don't know. Um, just for her to come in and be like, "Okay," because she was like, "I thought you were gonna kidnap me or something," and I was like, "No, nope, not gonna do that. Like, that's why it's a public place. There's other people here." But yeah, it was probably the best uh intro to her meeting me was when she said that. I was like, "Okay, well, I know I probably felt the same way."

Oh yeah. Uh, you said something interesting there and I want to go back to it. You said that you don't lead. That's a fascinating story. I want to get the follow-up on that in just a second, but you said you don't lead with, "I work at a church." Why is that so a big piece for me?

No matter if it's the working at a church piece or even scripture, um, I don't necessarily lead with that. It usually goes to that place, but so many people, and myself included, have been beat over the head with the Bible or scriptures or scriptures out of context, um, that that puts up a wall instantly. And you have to build trust with people before you can really speak into their lives. Um, so some people I know do start with, you know, "I work at a church," um, those kind of things. For me, unless it feels like that's needed, I've had so many people that have come on, you know, through Glue, that I've, you know, said later, like, "Yeah, if you want to meet, whether it's on Zoom or in person, we can do that," and then I say, "You know, I'm at First Capital Christian Church or church anywhere," and they're like, "Oh, I just need you to know like I'm not religious," and I'm like, "I need you to know that it doesn't matter. I don't care if you're a Christian or you have faith. Like, we can still chat. We can still talk about this because more than anything I want to help you and I like do care about you. And and those things will lead, I think, in in its own way to a, you know, a gospel-centered conversation, but it doesn't have to start that way."

So moving into gospel-centered conversations then, talk to me about what happened with this lady who was local. Uh, you brought her in, you talked to her, she thought she was going to be kidnapped and thrown in the back of a van and never to see the light of day. Uh, what, what ended up, what was the kind of the end result, the red thread that you could pull through there?

Yeah, um, it's been incredible. So I've actually been meeting with her for probably about the last three months on and off.

Wow, um, we've went through all kinds of different conversations. We've talked through different things, and more than anything, just to hear—because I always try to ask the question at the end of our conversation like, "Well, what helped today? What was the most helpful piece?" You know, that we either talked about.

And a lot of times it is that just talking about it, like not suppressing it, getting it out. Because there's a big piece to like, whatever you're struggling with—and we all have something we're dealing with, whether it's mental health or something else—that when we let it go and we say it out loud, whether it's to a person or, crazy enough, to an animal like a pet, um, it really does work. Just to say it out loud, it starts losing that power over you. And so they're able to start processing it or working through it. And so with this, that's been a big piece of just talking with her through this and walking through different parts of her life.

Now, um, there's different pieces that we've kind of stepped into that aren't really in the mental area, like mental health area, but there are pieces that are really important to, like, her living like her best life and fulfilled life. Um, so it's been really cool, and that's kind of a continuing thing. Um, it's continuing on, and she's able to kind of have more control over her life rather than her life controlling her.

That's, uh, that's fascinating. There's an interesting thing I think that happens to when you, with theological training, and you with mental health therapy, counseling, coaching training, when you can sit down and you can contextualize the gospel for people in a way that allows them to see practical things going on, I think there's a—I've, I have been in my own counseling journey for the last couple of years. I've been a pastor for fifteen years, and really only recently, within the past two or three years, had my own counselor because of my own mental health kind of struggles. I struggle with generalized anxiety disorder. Um, full disclosure, like, I am, uh, I am on, um, a thing called Lexapro, just that helps kind of even me out. Uh, and it has helped me in immense ways. But I didn't actually realize the gospel message inside of the counseling until I actually started paying somebody to do that.

The question I want to ask you is: Do you feel like you are providing free counseling things to people that want to hear the gospel, or do you feel like you're just sort of helping massage a problem to go away and then watching people walk away from the church? Like, are you seeing success stories outside of just this one lady?

Yeah, I am. Um, I think the big piece is, like, because at here at the church, like, it's part of my job, um, so it creates that free resource for them. Like, there's been people are like, "What's the catch?" And I'm like, "There is no catch. Like, you can come in." And then we have another guy on staff that does this as well. Um, he has been in jail ministry a long time, so he ministers to a lot of different people too. And I mean, you, we've seen so much success through it. And you're not going to have everybody that will, you know, continue on and really hit that high point and, you know, have that light bulb moment. But if, for the most part, you can see so many people, whether it's a big change or a little change, and you can really see that when you sit down with them as well. Like, seeing from the first time you meet with them to even just a few, like, sessions later, being able to see the change or, like, even the strength that they've been growing in, it's been really neat just to kind of have that, um, perspective. And if you step back and kind of look at it as a big picture, that helps too, rather than just like the everyday, like, they come back in with more issues or more, you know, those kind of things.

But, um, yeah, I think it's really been able to see that. And having that biblical knowledge behind it, you're able to say different things that you know are scriptural, even if it's not like, "And in this scripture it says this." Yeah, um, so that's a big piece to you. You got to know it. Um, and so diving into the word as well is super important.

Uh, what's the biggest—I'm gonna say biggest, and I don't mean like the most bombastic thing—but what are the, what are the most incidences that you're seeing from people? Is it depression? Is it anxiety? Is it bipolarity? Is it ADHD? Is it some sort of hyperactivity thing? Like, what are the things that you're constantly seeing?

Yeah, I think the biggest thing is mostly anxiety. That's, um, anxiety, depression. I feel like those get talked about so much more, um, or people bring those up. I think part of that reason why too is I don't know that everybody realizes that there's so, so much other pieces to mental health. Um, you have like grief is a piece of it. And, um, I heard it once that somebody said like, even the grief that we deal with while we're living sometimes is harder than the grief we deal with in a death, um, which was really interesting for me. But if you think through it, there's a lot of truth to that. It deals with so many emotions. It deals with so many different pieces of who you are. Um, so yeah, grief is one of them. Um, anger is a part of mental health. Uh, like, one of my friends always says it's a secondary emotion, so it comes from somewhere. Um, there's so many pieces.

And then there's another one that I, I like to put it this way because we don't always know, and I think that's why it gets kind of generalized under anxiety a lot of times. Is it's, "I'm feeling some type of way," and that's what one of my friends, Joanie, always says. But it's so true. It's like, "Okay, I'm feeling some type of way. I don't know the words to put it in, but there's something that just feels slightly off or doesn't feel like it's where it should be." Um, and a lot of times with talking to a counselor or talking to someone who has some knowledge in that, they can help you and guide you to where it needs to be. But, um, or at least give you some tools to help manage that, because it's not like those things just disappear. That's what I had to kind of come to terms with is like, my anxiety is going to be here probably for the rest of my life. Like, I'm not putting God in a box. He could completely take it away, but he hasn't yet. And obviously, it's helped me be able to talk to people about it. Um, and so now I look at it in a completely different light of my, like, I'm kind of thankful for my anxiety, which is a weird phrase to say. Little bit a little weird. Um, but it has, with the tools that I have, I can turn it to actually push me to do more, like to push me to be on this podcast in front of people, 'cause like, whole social anxiety, talking to in front of people, um, so fun. But to do that, or to talk in front of different people at conferences or just to meet with people one-on-one and not feel like, "Oh, I don't know what I'm going to talk, like, say to them," and just letting the Holy Spirit work through me in that has been a game changer for me for sure.

That's awesome. Well, I want to, I want to take some of those tips and I want to run into our tip section here. And typically what our tip section is is for the responders themselves, uh, but this is also a time for us to really give some practical boots-on-the-ground advice. And you're, you're eminently practical. Everything that I've been hearing you talk about, you know, uh, you, you're imminently practical in pulling things along. So what are some tips that you could give our responders right now and how could you help them kind of further their journey with Glue just a little bit?

Yeah, um, one of the biggest things is don't be discouraged if you don't get a response. Um, there are so many that we, we don't get responses to, but we still try to reach out. Um, there are some people who, like I said before, they do live in that isolation, and even though they reach out, like, initially, they may not be ready to talk yet. But they know that somebody's there. Um, so yeah, you don't always get response, but don't be discouraged about that, 'cause one day you may get response months later from them, um, or maybe not. But maybe it was a starting point of seeing, "Okay, somebody's out there. They're listening. They'll listen to me."

Yeah, so that's probably my first one. Uh, second one would be know when something is above your pay grade. The way I like to phrase it, it's so true though. Because if someone is like really dealing with like suicidal thoughts or they're really dealing with something that's really, really deep, that you're like, "I don't even know how to respond to this," um, know and have people you can like send that to or pass them, refer them on to. Uh, we do that a lot with different people. We've sent, um, one of the other counselors on staff, people before were like, and he does not care. He's like, "Here's my phone number. Just give it to him." Um, so it's like, "Here's his phone number. Call him. Leave him a message and get something set up." And he's, um, awesome about doing like either in person or Zoom as well. So he's been able to talk to a lot of people and really help them, um, deeper than like just a texting conversation back and forth could, because that's what they need. Um, so that's really the second one, because if you try to think you know it all and just do it, it could do more damage.

So leave that out there. That's an interesting one too. I think a lot of pastors and church leaders, um, they, we, I do too, uh, we have kind of a messiah complex, and we think that we know everything and we want to solve anything. And I think one of the biggest things that I, this is years ago in my own ministry, got told by the senior pastor of the church I was working for, "Hey, you don't know everything. And sometimes the most powerful thing you can say to somebody is, 'I don't know. Let me, let's research that together. Let's figure this out together.'" It creates a camaraderie. It creates a unity. And especially in the sense of mental health, it creates this sense of shared suffering. I think that people can automatically bond with.

Yeah, yeah, I think that's great. And like, if you have and build a referral network is so important too, um, with that. So you have people to actually send them to or connect them with, or even just resources like the, um, crisis lifeline is like 988. Like, they can text and they can call. And so if somebody's really struggling, that's a quick and easy, you know, send off. Um, and then my last one, I think, would just be be a learner. Like, be a continual learner. And you don't have to go and get a master's in mental health, like, for this kind of stuff. But there's so many resources out there that you can learn and dive into that will help you to respond better. Um, so rather than being like, even if you've, like, given me, I've struggled with anxiety and depression, and if I'm talking to someone else who has had that same experience of anxiety and depression, I still can't say, "You know, I understand exactly what you're going through," because you don't. Everybody's experience with that is different. It happens, um, different to everybody and comes up in different ways. Um, like, me and my husband both deal with anxiety. Ours are completely different. Um, even though we live in the same house. So it's just, and that means so much more when you're like, "I can't imagine what you're going through right now, but I want to be here for you." That does so much more than just being like, "You know, I know what you're going through," because it's like, "No, you don't." But continuing learning, because you know, we still, there's no way we even know probably half of what the brain is and how God designed it. And the more I dive into it, the more I learn about it, I'm like, "I have no doubt that there's a Creator out there," because there's no way that this and this and all the pieces can form together to make these narrow pathways, and it just, it blows my mind, uh, as I dive in deeper. And it just helps me understand more of like who we are.

Meant to be overall, um, how God created us because he literally created us like physical and spiritual and mental and emotional and relational, and all those five pieces I think are all the five things that you'll deal with in Glue, really, um, that you're going to come in contact with. And so the more you can and learn about those different areas, the more you'll be able to help people and be able to guide those conversations better.

I can't think of a better way to end this episode other than to say, uh, I cannot see the forest for the trees when it comes to talking to people in terms of mental health. You have such a better grasp on that than I think you and most other people ever will. Is that a God-given passion that has been instilled? Is that something that you've had to find your way? Is that something that has been forced on you? Like, where have you found all of that drive and that energy?

Yeah, um, I think it's been my God-given gift. Um, it is a big piece, but it's also that I've dealt with those things, and growing up in the church where they never talked about mental health, um, it's a huge passion of mine to get that out there, to get it out there to other Christians or to other churches that like take it as a serious thing because it's a part of like, it's kind of like mental health's always been there, but we should definitely talk about it.

Yeah, um, so that's been, yeah, a driving force because it's going to counseling and working through different parts of my life and past and those kind of things has grew me into so much of a better Christ follower, um, just a better pastor, like all the different pieces of my life, a better mom, a better wife, and I've been able to just see myself like finally be who I was meant to be. Um, I still have growing to do. I still have things to work on. I'm not perfect, even though I really want to think I am, sure, the whole perfectionist side, but there's so much. And so I love like the turning point for me was when I could look in the mirror and say I am proud of the person I'm becoming. And once I could say that, I wanted everyone to have that same feeling. I wanted everybody to understand like how God created us, and then, you know, all these different pieces, they fit together perfectly, even though we may not think it's perfect. And so that just drives me to really just want to help people in any way I can and do as much as I can.

I love it. Well, Megan, I, uh, I have really appreciated your time on this episode. I can't wait to, uh, kind of take this journey a little bit more as we come up with other things, as we talk about some of these prompts and responses and some of the other stories. But thank you so much for being here.

Yeah, absolutely. Thanks for having me.