EP056: Daniel Im - No Silver Bullets & How to Disciple Online

Episode 56 of the Church Digital Podcast powered by Stadia Church Planning. I got to tell you, Stadia is planning over a thousand churches and we are out there right now trying to make sure those thousand churches are stable, safe, and sound. And we're not really just drawing the border at those thousand.

We've—this is what I love about Stadia—we're creating resources and helping churches beyond trying to figure out how to master this, this digital church, this church online thing. By the way, check this out: there's a Facebook group. The easiest way to get there is if you go to the church dot digital slash coronavirus. On that, there's a number of resources we've created, but one of the best resources we have out there today is a Facebook group that's managed by us but also managed by a bunch of Stadia people where they're getting in, their churches are getting in there, they're talking about what they're experimenting with, whether it's working, whether it's not working, and encouraging us to gather as we're out there trying to figure out how to beat this coronavirus thing and by utilizing digital tools and church online. So if you're not part of that, it's you can look for Church Online and Coronavirus on Facebook or head over to the church digital slash coronavirus and find the link there on that page.

Well, I gotta tell you, I have been sitting on this podcast for a couple weeks. We've recorded this probably the day before the coronavirus, you know, I had hesitate to say the word outbreak before everything exploded, moving off the West Coast more towards the East Coast here in America. And I have been itching, itching to share this podcast interview with you because this has been, you know, that's our podcast, that an interview was fun. This one I was more fun than the Ned because it really, honestly, I felt like I was talking to like a cloned copy of me. We were so on the same page with a number of different things.

So the interview is with Daniel M, who is in Canada. He works with LifeWay. He does a number of things. He's written a number of books. And honestly, the heart of this is we really delved into his book called No Silver Bullet. Now, this is an older book—we're going back to 2015—but honestly, just recently I read it. There's a church I'm working with and they're having some discipleship level issues within the church. How do we keep people on mission? What does discipleship look like? We're having issues with kind of taking people to that next deeper level. And really, I just delved into this book. Like I said in the podcast, it was stuck on my Kindle. I bought it years ago, just never read it. And as I read it, honestly, my heart just leapt, and I caught this vision for what a discipleship movement in a church could be if it was done with intentionality.

But on top of that, I kept a kind of larger vision of what a discipleship method could be if it was executed digitally to complement churches that are out there. And so the more that Daniel and his book talked about discipleship, the more that I had this greater understanding of what it could be in a digital environment. And that made me very happy.

So we're having this conversation with Daniel Emmett, and it is literally on the eve of the coronavirus explosion that has happened here in America and around the world here with this global pandemic. So there's definitely application points that we talk about here about how to get people on mission, but it also talks a lot to the heart of what it actually means to be intentional towards making disciples in a physical environment as well as a virtual one. It's been a great podcast, a great conversation here with Daniel M, LifeWay, as well as a number of other resources and connection points. No Silver Bullets for Church Online—that's the name of the episode here at the Church Digital Podcast. Here y'all go.

Hey Jeff.

Hey, how are you doing?

I'm doing nice to meet you.

Nice to meet you too. Hey, I want to thank you for jumping on this podcast. It's been a hectic couple days, no killings over all of us, I'm sure, but man, I just I wanted to thank you for sticking with this and allowing this conversation to happen. It'll be good.

I'm looking forward to it.

Yeah, I want to sing your praise, and I'll do this on the podcast a little bit, but you know, I bought your book several years ago and it sat on my Kindle as you know, typically books do. I got the app—we'll get there eventually, later, maybe, sorta. And you know, one of the churches I was working at, Christ or any Church, starting to run into some discipleship issues and some things. It's like, yeah, there's there's gotta be a better way to do this. We don't figured it out. And there was just No Silver Bullets book. I just I want to go back to that, and it really—I've read it and I was like, oh, this is so good. This is exactly what they need. And I tend to be an extremist, kind of alarmist type of guy. Like, we have to do this now. Yeah, and I made key staff read it, and they're like, oh, this is so good. And it really helped kind of pivot the culture, or at least bring awareness to that, you know. I know you're not even—I know it's not even like the thing that you're like pushing and promoting. It may be old school. Like, I'm in this moment, and you know, like, man, I really wanted to like just explore this and talk with Daniel more about it. So thanks for like kind of going old school here, revisiting 2015 a little bit.

Do man, yeah, I love talking about it. And even when I wrote it, you know, is this commitment to say, okay, do I believe enough about this that I'm willing for at least the next ten years to talk about this topic? So yeah, and it's yeah, I love it.

So I'm glad to talk about it.

Well, you picked a really good topic to talk about, at least from a relevancy standpoint, because we're seeing culture shift more away from the buildings. But here at the Church Digital Podcast, we talk a lot about church online and in digital church. I've actually taken over—over, I honestly think this is even since we scheduled a podcast with you—but I'm with Stadia Church Planning where I'm director of digital church planting. We're looking at a digital only expression that doesn't exist in physical. It's more of a digital, virtual, biblically theology of what an actual church looks like that would be digital only. And which really is a fascinating conversation for me that centered more around a discipleship driven model, a discipleship process, discipleship pathway. A lot of these words that I just keep resonating over and over with. And honestly, like in the back of my mind, I just going back to No Silver Bullet, so I'm like, I have to write this book. I'm gonna have to write this book. I haven't found anybody to really say what I want to say.

Yeah, you know, I read No Silver Bullets and I'm like, yes, I don't have to write the book. I don't have to go to all this trouble because my man's here, Daniel M's already set it, and it's starting to roll through it. So I love how what you're talking about with this intentional discipleship—I think it's so it's a wake-up call for churches, yeah, or it's getting more on board with that today, being intentional with it as opposed to being lax as days ago, land, and some of those things. But even in context of online, using church online to create some of those intentional points to foster that development and growth is so good. And so man, just thanks for jumping on here. I just I have to know this.

Yeah, yeah, and we'll dig in, right? This will be good.

How, where did where did this, the idea of No Silver Bullets and just even the four quadrants, if you want to highlight that, like where did this come from?

Yeah, okay, so the old-school original where the whole thing was birth, it was when I was doing my Master's at Fuller, and it was an MA in Global Leadership. And basically my final project was—it's all contextual to your church, the way they did their things. So for me then, I was trying to figure out, hey, how do I create a discipleship pathway that's scalable within a multi-site context, thinking also post-Christian to being in Canada, but just a sense of a of a scalable multi-site discipleship pathway that yeah, that can actually that works in different sizes of churches, right, where you have maybe two thousand people gathered in one location, a hundred in another, four or five hundred in another. So what would that look like? And that's really the origin of it around the ongoing steps, the first steps, the next steps. But man, that harkens all the way back to like 2013. And it's just kind of I it was great, put it to the side, ended up moving out down to Nashville, moving to LifeWay, co-writing Planting Missional Churches with IDI. And basically an acquisitions editor was like, hey, Jeff, do you like a solo book in you? And I was like, well, there's just I've worked on that. I worked on it, but I just kind of I never finished it because I didn't think anyone would want to read it. So I sent her, well, what it was, and they're like, okay, well, here's a contract. So that's basically what got it kick-started again. And multiple years later, it was a reassessment of, okay, does this still work? Is this timeless? And then how do you actually communicate it? How do you communicate it well? So it was just further research that then got me into doing some research around the quadrants and had a conversation with Dr. Robert Coleman around that too. I mean, the guy wrote Master Plan of Evangelism, discipleship, and I was like, okay, if he can get on board with this, then I'm okay. So he was my gut check. He was my, am I out to lunch? And he, I mean, he endorsed the books, right? So I mean, it was cool to have that conversation with him.

That's awesome.

I could try to explain the—I'm gonna be honest, I could try to explain the quadrants. It would take me eight minutes, and I'm willing to bet you've got a forty-five second version of the quadrants that you can just nail real quick and roll through this. Seriously though, just give us a brief synopsis because I'm sure you're more succinct than I would be.

Okay, okay, so imagine a square with four quadrants, and you have a copycat church, a silver bullet church, an intentional church, and a hippie church, right? So if we're looking at all four, you know, these four quadrants, what is the difference between each and every one of them? You have the copycat church that views discipleship as all about getting to a destination. And that's actually what the copycat and the silver bullet church shares. They're it's all about getting to a destination. So discipleship is about knocking those checkboxes off and doing this program, doing that program. And the difference between the copycat church and the silver bullet church is the copycat church, it's literally you know, go to that conference, we're gonna copy this model. Oh, didn't work four months later, go copy another model. So there's a low sense of accountability there, okay? The silver bullet church is like the copycat church where they still view discipleship as checking off these external markers, but the difference is accountability-wise, systems-wise, it flows, and everything looks good. But the metrics for maturity are different. It's actually incorrect the way that they're viewing the metrics for maturity.

And then you have, move it up, right? You then have the intentional church and you have the hippie church. Both actually, the biggest difference between those ones and the bottom ones is that those ones actually view maturity from a directional standpoint, right? So it's not necessarily the destination you get to. It's more the direction you're pointing in. So there's a key difference, a fundamental difference as to what maturity looks like.

Like and what the discipleship process looks like. Is it destination oriented, check the boxes, or is it the direction you're pointing in? And the difference between the hippy church and the intentional church. The hippy church, it's kind of like the copycat church, low culture of accountability, going from one to another. So these are the churches that essentially are like, "Oh, you wanna like, you don't want to meet together? You just want to listen to worship music and go hike on the mountain and instead of gathering together for worship? Oh yeah, that's fine, that's fine, right? Or you don't have to read the Bible, just read a devotional about the Bible. That's the same thing." It's very lackadaisical. As long as you're pointing in that direction toward Christ, you're fine. Where is the intentional church? Yes, it is directionally focused, but there's a clear pathway to getting to disciple and getting people along, moving in the right direction. So that's those are kind of the four quadrants summarized.

Yeah, it's really interesting, this idea of destination. And for me with the church that I'm regularly working with, like that was the radical connection for us. Previous to that, it was the Rick Warren baseball diamond. And far be it for me to be overly critical of that, because I think that was revolutionary at the time and really helped a lot of churches move forward. Churches that I've been on staff with and worked with. But the reality is that the 401, that home plate, that people being on mission, like nobody ever makes it to that class. It's amazing. Everybody does the 101. You lose 20% for the 201. You lose 20% for the 301. And by the time you get down to the 401, you know, it's like, "Oh, this is the four people who are going specific on the global missions trip. Let's just make that to 401." And it is a far minimal audience percentage of people that are attending. But as a result of that, we're really missing this opportunity to have people be on mission. Where, you know, once again I don't want to be overcritical, but hey, let me serve coffee here or let me be, you know, guest services or something. And all these are important. But when it comes to personal evangelism, when it comes to disciple making, with the things where we look at today's culture, we realize, "Wow, like the best way for our church to be impactful is not our physical building and doing these events in our buildings, but it's all about empowering people to have spiritual conversations, that go and share their faith and then to disciple others life-way, like the place where you work."

And this is an older stat, but I quote all the time. By the way, if you guys could update this, that I would really appreciate it. 2000 to 2016, LifeWay, 63% of people are no longer interested in going to the buildings to learn about their faith. And at the same way that I myself, I'm not interested in going to a mosque. I think I figured out what I know at the spiritual level and I'm not really open to more conversations. 79% of people are open to talking about faith with their friends if they see that faith is important to their friends. And so, you know, for me, when I look at the opportunity of church online, it's let's utilize this online technology to create a discipleship pathway, a direction that creates in people this desire to be a disciple maker, to be a multiplier of others. It's not a consumer level thing as much as it is a multiplier aspect of that.

Now, just hearing some of that, like what do you think of that? What are some challenges? What are some wins? What about utilizing technology in this way to create to multiply disciples?

Yeah, yeah. In my book, "No Silver Bullets," I talked about this idea of a high-tech, kind of high-touch approach to leadership development. And in the book, I really focus it in and around leadership development. But when it comes to discipleship, right, there has to be the touch component to it, right? I mean, we're there. There has to be the interaction focus to it. Now, I think that doesn't mean it has to be in person. I think there's a sense of, are you on? Is this active? Or are you? Is it a passive approach, right? So as it relates to a high-tech and high-touch approach, especially with church online, there is a sense of, "Okay, am I a massive consumer of this, or is there active interaction?" Like you and I, this is very active for you and I. For the listeners, it's passive, right? So that's the big difference. So as it relates to discipleship in this sense of, "Okay, what does a high-tech and high-touch approach look like?" It can very much be, "Hey, as a small group, we are gonna gather together on Zoom, right? And we are going to, yes, it's high-tech and yeah, we're not in person, but it's active, right?" So I think there's this whole sense that we need to have a proactive approach rather than this passive approach, especially as it relates when we're leveraging technology. But especially, especially as it relates to discipleship.

So yeah, I love the fact that you referenced high-tech, high-touch. I actually read a book 20 years ago, I think I was in college, called "High-Tech, High-Touch" by Larry Nesbitt. Oh, I guarantee you've never been in a podcast that referenced Larry Nesbitt. He was a business guy. It was early on, it was like before Y2K. But it was this general principle that technology is, and I forgive me, like I'm old. I don't know how old you are, but I'm not so old to be like the grumpy old guy, "Get off my lawn," aka Ed Stetzer. We'll talk about him later. He's fun. I love that.

Yeah, we did a podcast with him recently and it was awesome. But this high-tech, high-touch with Larry Nesbitt, you know, the principal was that technology by itself, left to itself, is cold. It's isolated. And so it's very easy when you don't pay attention to the high-touch level, I think you are guilty. We as a church are guilty of utilizing church online to create consumers. Yeah, that so if we leave it isolated, if we leave it unto itself, we are people who are creating content for consuming as opposed to building relationships.

It's funny. I actually do, "Get off my lawn." That's literally a quote from Ed Stetzer when he was on my podcast. We'll link to it in the show notes. It was episode 49. And I'll tell you this, Daniel, it was, I don't know that I've said this publicly, but it's cool. Eddie, Eddie, I love you if you're listening. Eddie, I'm friends with Thad. We don't get Miami. And so Ed told me what very watch just, "Oh yeah, yeah, yeah." He told me he's like, "Don't ask me questions on church online." And I'm like, "Why not?" And he's like, "You're not gonna like my questions if you ask me on church online." Yeah, I'm like, "Come on, Eddie, can I get like constructive criticism? Can I say challenges and allow you to give me some feedback?" And he's like, "Just, you know, you can ask me if you want, but just you're gonna get what you're gonna get." And I told Eddie this. I gave him this pitch of online, the offline, that the gospel we hear in the online world, it has to affect our offline relationships. And it's a multiplication tool. And it's funny, Eddie Stetzer, as soon as I was done, literally he's like, "If you're a pastor hearing what Jeff Reid said, you should do this." Yeah, you know, and it's like he's never heard this idea, but it's like, let's not be consumers in creating this consumers where we're being negative towards us, but let's be intentional. It's why I love your book so much. Let's be intentional towards disciple making. And I would just add a little, you know, wrinkle to it. Let's figure out how to use the online tools to get there.

Yeah, and you know, another thing that I love for your book and I want you to kind of speak in this and set this up, you used the term social space. Yeah, did you set up for me just and for the listening audience what social space is and how it kind of relates to this discipleship process?

Definitely, definitely. So let's go back to the 1950s. Edward T. Hall, anthropologically, he was doing research called proxemics. And he was trying to identify, "How do animals," he started with animals, realized, "Okay, how do animals gather together and does this then relate to humans?" So fast-forward quite a bit, he basically identified four spaces that humans naturally connect. You got your public space. Your public space, like all the public spaces that are now closed down because the coronavirus, so hundred-plus people, right? So there's outside. You got the social space, which is that twenty to fifty person-sized space. So think standard perception before a wedding, so these kind of fluid spaces. And then you got these, um, you got these personal spaces, which is a third one, that's like eight to twelve people, like a small group. And you have the fourth space, which is the intimate space, one or two people.

The research basically stated that, "Hey, in all four spaces, and all four spaces we experience community, but one space, it's not necessarily that one space is more important than the others. They all have their unique benefits, advantages and disadvantages, and a different ROI for each and every one of them. But the important thing to understand is we actually experience community differently in all four spaces."

So if this is naturally how humans connect, how are we leveraging these four spaces? So Joseph Myers and his book, "The Search to Belong," I think is like early 2000s, he was one of the first ones I believe to introduce this concept into the church conversation. And you know, many people have written on it thus far since then. So when you think about that social space, it's that idea like, how I think as churches we do this small, the personal space well, right? Small groups, we do that well. And some churches, especially with D groups and accountability groups or LTDs or however you own do it, yeah, more and more churches are doing this one to two to three person-sized space well because those are the spaces where you can open up, those are the spaces where you can create trust and build those relationships. And a lot of churches do the large public spaces well. I mean, that's kind of a corporate worship gathering. That twenty to fifty person-sized space, that's the space that's often underutilized. And here's the interesting fact post-writing the book: if you're a church of under 200 people, I don't think there's as much of a need for a formalized twenty to fifty person-sized space program or an approach to programming this because naturally a lot of these spaces will just be there. You'll naturally have them. If you're over 200 though, that's when you actually need to intentionalize these twenty to fifty person-sized gatherings.

Oh totally. Like, you know, and we've talked about, I think you may know the exact stat, but something like eighty percent of churches at this point are under two hundred. The average church is well, probably seventy-two, seventy-three, it seems like a, yeah, in the states it's about a hundred. The advertisers, yeah, in candidates under eighty, yep, okay, yeah. So but for the mega and the giga church, it's easy to get lost in that. And if you're not connected into that, that smaller group, the one that's down at the personal space area, you're lost in an accountability almost. And the church has lost that. And so I love this idea of that social space, that the twenty to fifty number. You know, if I'm putting on all my online pastor hat and you know, digital strategist, I'm looking at that twenty to fifty number thinking, "Man, what would it look like if we, if that was like house churches or micro locations?" Yeah, around. And I'm looking at like, you know, Elevation Church with their watch parties, the home gatherings that Saddleback does. We even talked about, you've probably never heard of this, but a...

Church called First Capital Christian in Corydon, Indiana. It's a small—I'm gonna tell you the story. Daniel's, yeah, it's this right here is exactly why churches need to understand discipleship at a deeper level. This one sits in Corydon, Indiana. You've never heard of Corydon, Indiana, have you? No.

So here's the deal. It's a small town of about 3,000 people, and First Capital Christian—and this is their words, I've had the lead pastor, we've done a couple podcasts with them on it—it's on the wrong side of town, on the outskirts of town, like no one's around, no residential area like that. They bought the property decades ago, and instead of the town going towards the church, it went away from the church, okay? And so this church has every excuse to just dry up and die. Yeah. For some reason, this church has over a thousand people regularly attending. Nope, I wanna make certain. Yeah, do the math, bro. So I'm like, wait a second, you're telling me you've got 30% attendance in a small town in Indiana right at the Kentucky border? This doesn't—honest to God, I'm flying out there in June. I'm going to speak at a conference, and I'm like, I love you guys, I want to see it for real. And I trust him. Yeah. And so like, the people on—Tyler Samson's a good friend. He's the engagement pastor over there. But here's where sacred space fits in. Hmm. The story. And we talked about this in the podcast a lot where there was a nurse who worked at a Hodgkin's Huntington's rehab center—basically it's a terminal disease with that—and so she was working on Sundays and she was really annoyed that she couldn't get off Sundays because she wanted to go to church. She doesn't want to work Sundays. Mm-hmm. But what she would do is she would grab her iPad, go sit in the community center with the iPad on her lap, and just engage watching the church service online. And then one Sunday, like two people gathered around her and started watching the church service. A couple weeks later, four people. A couple weeks later, eight people, 12, 16. There's a photo I've seen it with like 20 people gathered around this woman holding an iPad at a—could all in like the robes of awesome little gowns. That is so awesome. This church, and she takes his photo, texts the church leadership, and says, "Can you help me do ministry here?" This small church has literally discipled 18 volunteers, intentionally grown 18 people to be volunteer campus pastors at 18 micro locations around it. It's things like prisons. It's things like orphanages. They're literally adopting people, children, and to be part of the family, solving within this small town. They're getting 500 to 600 people engaging in these micro locations. So I'm bad at math, but they're roughly at a thousand, roughly 500, maybe 1,500, okay? Maybe they're getting some crossover, but in a small town of 3,000, that's incredible. The vision of our church is to reach 1% of Edmonton. That's just 1%, and we're running a few thousand on a weekend, right? So this is 1%. That is incredible. And what you get from this is this is the power of empowering someone with the gospel and saying, "You go." The thing that I love is the people that are the campus pastors. Mm-hmm. The volunteer campus pastors, the unpaid people, yeah, they're out there doing the ministry at the locations they often go to. They have a personal heart for it. It's not like the pastor is running around trying to find all these locations and manage this stuff. It's like, "What are you passionate about? Go disciple, make disciples, yeah, grow in that area," and let—let us, the church, First Capital Christian, let us help you with that, man. So awesome, a phenomenal story and a challenge for, I think, a lot of churches out there. That if we could kind of release the priesthood to the believers, let them run, equip them with the power to do this, man, we see some phenomenal things happen with multiplication and growth in our city. Amen. Are you a preacher? I'm a technology guy. Crisis, we need to—we need to do some awesome things for the world. Yeah. And technology, high-tech, high-touch is a part of it. So hey, I want to keep—I'm gonna keep rolling with this because once again in the book, there were like, I'm like, "This is incredible, this is incredible." You introduced a new term to me, and you got me in trouble with my marriage. I'm gonna call you out because I asked my wife about this, who has a Master's of Education, and her response was not warm. Back and so you guys talked about flip the classroom. Yeah, why don't you just give me a little insight, talk to me, you know, about flip the classroom? Okay, so apologies if you got in trouble with your—well, it's okay. Well, think into it in a second. I do have Norwich and parenting podcasts, so give that jerk a note. All that said, the flipping the classroom idea is, long story short, just a super long story short, it's basically the idea of, okay, instead of—and this is within a church setting—instead of saying, "Hey, everyone's gonna gather here and listen to this talking head," and then it's primarily—let's think about a leadership development, so you're training volunteers, okay? Training volunteers, everyone's in a room, you are speaking, here's the lesson, and then everyone goes away, and you know, maybe you pray together or whatever, but then you're done, your training, so that's it. The problem with that, though, right, is that it's hard to get a hundred percent of your volunteers to that training environment. It's just with scheduling and all that stuff, it's just super hard. So the idea of flipping the classroom is, "Hey, instead, why don't we give the lesson at home or via video, and then when you get together, right, you're flipping it, you then do the work together?" So within the school setting, this is—I mean, think back to a world before YouTube. Like, I live that world. I know it. Yeah, like 2005, if you shot a video, how did you share it with a friend? Like, how did you share it with anyone else before Facebook, YouTube, or anything, right? It was just so hard. Whereas now it's like, "Oh, of course, it's easy to share stuff." So the whole idea was basically in a school classroom, these teachers who got sick and tired of trying to catch up, sick, you know, kids who are sick who missed the class and having to redo the lecture over and over again, they basically did a voice-over over their PowerPoint lecture, PowerPoint slides, voice-over, and they put it up on this new fandangled thing called YouTube, and they said, "Hey, instead of me reviewing and recapping everything, hey, just watch it." And then more kids watched it and kids watched it and more, and then it started, you know, people who weren't even in that class, where that school, started watching it. So they're like, "Oh, maybe we're onto something." So within the school environment, it was basically this idea of, "Hey, when you're gathered together in a classroom, instead of the teacher teaching, let's flip it so that the lesson is done at home and the homework is done at class rather than the lesson in class and homework at home." So that's that large. Yeah, that's the concept in a nutshell. Yeah. So my wife—let me finish the story on my side. My wife has a Master's of Education. She's a—she's the smart one in the marriage by far. I'm the dummy, and my kids are brilliant all because of her DNA and nothing to do with mine. And so like, I'm on a plane, you know, I read your book online. This is awesome. Actually, I bought the book "Flipped a Classroom" that you referenced there. There's lots of different ones out there, but I actually read the specific one, the two chemistry teachers, and they're in their story, and it's phenomenal. Super short read, definitely impactful, great things just for me even processing, you know, what this looks like, and of course I'm thinking digital discipleship, what it means, or even church online, like processing outside of it, you know? I've had conversations with, you know, high-level organizations working through how to do discipleship online. It's like, "Don't watch the videos when you're on Zoom with everybody. Yeah, nobody wants to do that. Watch the videos in advance and take the opportunities to dialogue and discuss. That's far more effective." And so like, organizations are saying, "This is awesome," and this is even before I read the book. Like, everything's going great. I'm like, "This is awesome, we're spring and momentum." I actually now have a book—it's called, you know, or that's that I can have proof. "Hey, here are the guys who actually came up with this concept." Daniel M said it's great. So I asked my wife when I got home, dinner one night after reading the book on the plane, "Hey, Amy, have you ever heard of this like flip the classroom thing?" And I love my wife, and she was not positive in her response back, you know? And the response was more centered around, "Yeah, those are just teachers being lazy," and not what's interesting. And there's a lot of heart. Yeah, yeah, yeah. He's an educator. Maybe there's some of—and I've told my wife I'm having these conversations. So like, people are like, "I can't believe you saying it's right. We're fine, it's good," but there's this place of, you know, she's defining who she is by the performance, but not necessarily having the best mind of what's around for the kids and whatever's best for the kids. Maybe we need to break the paradigms of what we're doing so that the students are able to get what they need. Yeah. And there's—and I think there's an opportunity for us even within the church, you know? I mentioned this too in a previous podcast, and in a digital pastor who's at a multi-site churches. Oh, I've heard that lazy comment before. People talk about that all the time when they're talking to pastors who do video teaching to multi-site campuses. Yeah. Oh, the other camp, because the other pastors are just being lazy when in fact video teaching pastor, the campus pastors that don't have to prep a message, my gosh, they've got so much more time to be the pastoral shepherding involved in people's lives, disciple-making. There's a reason why that model is effective. It's not the perfect model, and I'm not saying necessarily that it is, but there's a great opportunity for us to do something different. Yeah, yeah. I'll have you seen flip the classroom be effective? I want to hear this. Yeah, yeah, that's awesome, that's awesome. So how it's very beneficial within a school environment. And not—let me just do that, and then I'll go to the church environment. How it's super beneficial within a school environment and also when you're training leaders in your church is that in a group of 20 people, typical classroom, 30 people, what level do you teach to? Not everyone's at the same level. So you have to generalize it as a teacher in some sense or fashion, and there are gonna be people who are on par, listening, engaged. There gonna be some people who are like, "This, I know everything. Why the such a huge?" Or and they're gonna be others who just don't really get it. And that's just naturally when you have that many people, it's hard to customize and personalize the lesson. The beauty of flipping the classroom is that if you get the lesson and you're one of those kids who get it and you're like, "Yeah, I don't need to send a lecture," then just fast forward three. You don't need to watch the video at home. A lesson just fast forward. But you need—abs, and this is this is so key—you need some sort of comprehension-oriented assignment. So it is some sort of homework, but it needs to be some sort of assignment to indicate that's the accountability side to it, indicate that you watched or you got the concept, right? Now, if you didn't get the lesson, you couldn't rewind and watch again. If you did, if you're on par, then you watch it all the way through. So the beauty is when you're actually together.

Because learning, learning, and you look at all the BARK, right? BARK as a model of visual, aural, you know, all the different ways that people learn. Not everyone can learn via auditory as well, or there might not be as much retention that happens through this passive learning. But a lot of learning happens when we're teaching. A lot of learning happens when we're engaging.

So when you flip the classroom and the kids are all together, what do you do with the kids who don't get the lesson? You as a teacher, you don't teach the kids who don't get the lesson. You pair the kids who get the lesson with the kids who don't get the lesson, and the kids who get it are teaching the kids who don't get it. Because what that is, one of the most effective ways to learn is when you teach, right? And you're saying, "Hey, can you help Joey here? You get it." And that kid's learning goes even deeper there. And then the kids who get it, you know, they're doing interactive projects together.

So here's the thing, right? Math. Why? Like, I did cumin, right? And you know, there's a lot of different here, rills, a lot of drills that happen. It's like, "Okay, why am I doing geometry? Why might like, it's just drill, drill, drill. You need to learn the formula." What if instead we said, "Hey, we're gonna build. We're gonna build out of toothpicks or out of something. We're gonna build this building, but we're gonna put out architectural to make sure it works, and that's why geometry matters." And we're gonna do, and you know, so the majority of the class, they're working on these projects doing the calculations because they're building a building out of toothpicks. It's not just trial and error. No, you got to do the calculations first. And then the kids who really don't get it, that's the one, those are the ones that teachers can personally help or I personally help because they have the time to do it.

So within a church context, it's exactly the same. You have a group of thirty small group leaders. Why do you think it's effective? Why do you think it's an effective use of their time and your time for you to just for thirty minutes teach them how to connect or how to deal with over talkers, right? How do you know that they're actually gonna be competent in their ability to deal with over talkers just by listening to you? You don't. They need to practice it.

So give the lesson at home, right? Via video. Here, watch this ten-minute video. And that's the other thing, right? You lecture in front of a live audience, it's typically gonna be way longer than a video because you need the stories, you need the inflections, you need all that stuff. If it's a video, just go straight to the point. Five, ten minutes. BAM. Done, right? And people are okay with that medium and that way of communication because if there's too much fluff, people are gonna fast forward anyway, right?

So having said all that, give the lecture at home. Come together, right? That's flipping the classroom. Give a five-minute recap. Envision them. Thank them. Encourage them. What you can do in person. And then say, "Okay, we're gonna do, we're gonna implement. We're gonna do this project together, or we're gonna have these conversations together. We're gonna pair you up. Here is the case study, and you guys work this. And you're the over talker, and you're the group leader, and work it out." So that people can actually grow in their proficiencies.

So that's obviously on the leadership development side. Host writing the book, I also have done this on the discipleship side where is a small group. Now we would do book studies, and we would also do video-based studies. So I was like, "Man, this is dreadful to just sit together, watch this together, and now our discussion is we don't have a lot of time for discussion and we don't have a lot of time for prayer." So I was like, "Hey guys, let's all watch this at home, right?" And we were using small group comm from Life Way and Right Now Media. And I mean, there's all these platforms, right? So we were using it, watching at home. Come together. Now instead of fifteen minutes for discussion and five minutes for prayer, we now had an hour for everything or an hour and a half for everything. And instead of trying to, you know, gulp down our food in fifteen minutes, it was more time for food, more time for connection, more time for everything. Way more margin. And there's a lot more connection.

And yes, you're right, a hundred percent of the people did not watch it. Yes. However, however, what was fascinating to me is that there was actually vertical accountability and horizontal accountability, right? Vertical is from the leader downward. What I realized is as the leader, I didn't have to do the vertical accountability. Everyone was keeping each other accountable. And if someone didn't watch it, it wasn't actually me pointing them out. It was someone else in the group. Horizontal would be like, "Dude, just put it on your phone while you're driving. Like, you have no excuse." And I didn't have to say that. Other people were doing it because they're like, "Come on, man, you're like you're wasting our time." And it was just this neat dynamic that built rather than me having to, you know, come down with the ruler.

I love that accountability from the level playing field. Not now above. Hey, you said something. I want to back up because I there's a difference, or I'm interested in your take. Because you said that one model was more towards during the book, you were dressed it more from a leadership development side, and then you don't delve into more of a discipleship post the book. I just would love what's the relationship between discipleship, disciple-making, leadership development? I would love, as somebody at Life or somebody with your experience, what's your opinion? Just give me a couple minutes.

Yeah, yeah, okay. So vision, strategy, values in a church. Vision, strategy, and values. Vision is so where we're going, and this is Great Commission, Great Commandment, right? Regardless of how you word it out. Strategy is what you do to get to where you need to be. Strategy. And every church has to be, it's like a double helix, like DNA. And this is all in the book too. It's a double helix of your discipleship pathway or your leadership pipeline, right? Those are the two strands in your strategy. Every single thing that a church does, this is the what. Strategy is the what to get to the where. Vision and values are how you do what you do to get to where you need to go.

So in every church, everything that a church does, it's either going to leadership pipeline, equip the saints for the work of ministry, or it's going to on the discipleship pathway side, mature them toward Christ. This directional point of view. So when it comes to flipping the classroom, when it comes to everything a church does, if we simplify it down to the sense of, "Hey, this activity, is it? Is it more focused on the discipleship pathway side or the leadership pipeline side?" And a lot, there's gonna be there's gonna be an interlinking of a lot. And that's why it's a double helix. That's why it's a double. I mean, there's a lot of interrelation. But here's the thing: your leadership pathway and your leadership pipeline and your discipleship pathway are not the same thing. And it's so important that we recognize that they are not the same thing. And I even heard people say, "Oh, leadership is just advanced discipleship," and it, I can't, I can't emphasize how important it is to understand that they are not the same thing. There's a lot of inner relatedness. That's why it's a double helix. But they're not the same thing.

And here's why. Here's why. And this is post-book as well, right? What you believe on one, you will begin to assume on the other. If it's the same thing, what you believe about one, you'll actually begin to assume on the other. So here's what I'm talking about. Your leadership pipeline, you can check off the box and actually say, "I have displayed proficiency on this competency. I know how to do this. I didn't know how to do this, and now I've learned how to do it. Knowledge, experience, coaching, that's that transformational sweet spot. I have now demonstrated proficiency, and I now know I'm done. I'm good. Great. That is awesome for your leadership pipeline."

Discipleship doesn't work like that. You don't go, "Oh, I've checked off patience. I've checked off love. I've checked off humility. I've checked off joy." No, no, no. You are growing, and on this side of eternity, right? And it never ends. It never ends. And even on the other side of eternity, it doesn't either, right? We're always growing in our knowledge of Christ, always maturing in our knowledge of Christ.

So if they're the same thing, if they're the same thing, what you believe on one, you'll begin assuming on the other. And just like you can check off competencies on leadership pipeline, you'll begin to check off your discipleship pathway. And then you'll go down the road of program. You'll go down the road of, "Yes, I've done this. Look at all the studies on my shelf. See how mature I am?" Yeah, no, doesn't work like that.

We've got such an opportunity to impact people in different sides. I know personally, like, and some of the churches that I work with, it's very easy to melt the two together. The helix is a beautiful picture where it intersects where there's opportunities for it to work together. But there's urgency on each side for different reasons towards that. It's there. From a practical standpoint, just give me a couple things here. But from a practical standpoint, how do you separate between the two? Like Edie says, this is Edie. "You know, it's okay, everybody. We're doing a week in service. That's awesome. We're doing a we're doing small groups. That's great. We need a third thing." You know, the I'm gonna drop another guy's been on the podcast, the Eric Geiger, simple church, boiling it all down to two things. Yeah, probably wasn't a good idea culturally where we are now. Making fun of Eric, I love Eric. We need a third thing. So let's go ahead and add, let's add a discipleship, intentional discipleship thing. That's what, that's what it's looking for. He's like, "Sunday night service, Wednesday night something, but an opportunity for that deep Bible exposure, driving people." So now if I'm separating leadership development, is that a fourth thing? Like, how many more things am I throwing on this, you know? Like, what is it? What does it practically look like to create a that's developing disciples and at the same time growing leaders?

Mm-hmm. Okay. So last chapter of No Silver Bullets, we have your ongoing steps, our first steps, and our next steps, all right? So ongoing steps are those things where as a mature follower of Christ, it's the practices that Jesus practiced. It's the things, and that's where the research of here are the inputs, here's eighty-twenty, here's the inputs that make the biggest output. So though that's that's that's core, and that's not programmatic. That's just that's the life of a follower of Christ.

Programmatically, yeah, you got first steps. You're brand new. Do Alpha. You're brand new. Come to hear your, you know, communication-wise, and I mean, we can do a whole probably episode on echo chambers and how that affects church life and everything because that was definitely, I've done a huge deep dive on that post this book because there's just, it's crazy how it's affected discipleship. So that's on another note. And then you got your next steps. So what you're just talking, they're deeper life next steps. You know, I'm, we're gonna be doing these things called master classes, right? It's just this whole idea of what is that close to Christ, Christ-centered class to just go super deep because there is a sense of, yeah, everyone needs to be a self-feeder, but as a pastor, there's a sense of, "Hey, we need to really..."

Pour into an immature our people so that's all great leadership. It's not another thing because it has to be just in time type of training, right? And in churches that program eyes leadership, that's, and here's why digital is so important, right? Because inevitably, and sorry, I'm there's a lot of there's a lot of things going on. My latest book, "You Are, You Do, and Six Other Lies About," we're clever like it's a gig economy, right? I'm the premises the gig economy is here, which is side hustles. So all that to say, people have asked me, so if you've written this book on how the gig economy has affected us lives as Christians and as people, what does this have to do with Sundays? Like, does this actually have something to do with the lack of attendance on Sundays? Because thirty-six percent, thirty-five percent of the American workforce is a part of the gig economy. That's fifty-seven million people in America, right? And that's it's the same percentage in a lot of different countries. So the answer is I don't believe the gig economy affects Sunday morning attendance, but what it does affect is your volunteer hours. What it does affect is midweek because now with the gig economy, every hour is a billable hour. Every hour is a billable hour now, right? So now instead of saying, "Oh, I'm work for my part-time job for this person. I have to put in hours." No, every hour's a billable hour. So for volunteers who would say, "Oh, yeah, you know, I would, yeah, whatever, I got lots of free time, lots of free time. Yeah, I'll go help you do that. I'll do this." And these days it's shrinking more and more and more because every hour is a billable hour, right? It's like, "I could be doing this or I could be Ubering for a couple hours or doing, you know, this contracting and I could earn a few hundred dollars and then I could do this and go on this vacation." So I don't know if I have as much time anymore, pastor, right?

So here's where there's all loops together, where it all loops together, going back to your original question as it relates to leadership pipeline, leadership classes, all that stuff in your church. For every new volunteer that you have, you need to think onboarding. How do we onboard well? And that onboarding is not a class. The onboarding is just in time. Here's how to, you know, apprentice wise or online wise, here's what you need to know, and let's get together and I'm gonna coach you and we're gonna work. It's on-the-job training. But for every church, you need onboarding, but you also need ongoing training. You need long going trained onboarding and on. So an onboarding is immediate. Ongoing is you need to develop the core competencies of your people and of so that they can move up your leadership pipeline. So the ongoing training, the only way that ongoing training is gonna be effective is if it's delivered online because the worst thing that you can do is do a leadership development 101 class on another Sunday evening or after church, and it's one more thing. We're in every hour's a billable hour. One more thing that people don't want to go to. And number one, they don't want to go to it because they don't have time and every hour is a billable hour. At number two, it's like, "What does this have to do with my life and me serving as a small group leader?" Because it's so generalized. It's so generalized. So but it's important. Core competency training is critical to move people from volunteers to leaders to leaders to coaches, coaches and ministry directors. And, um, uh, so the reason online is so important is now flipping the classroom. You can highly specify the training so it's just in time with in relationship to that department and it's very focused and it's not another night out. It's literally on the commute to work and then coming home from work. "Hey, let's talk on the phone, right?" It's just, yeah, so make sure you know this is, you know, I've been thinking a lot about this, right? I love everything about this. Like, I'm so excited by this. What's what's interesting to me is I see what you're describing. I see churches who do what you're describing. And and and just in my context, yeah, they're church plants. If they are church plants not with staff people but who are doing work like there's a pastor who is who's the paid guy, maybe, or it's they're still fundraising and it's a completely volunteer team. They are the ones that are more driven by the all this virtual technology. And so no looms for the meetings like, and it's like the the larger organizations where, "No, let's just get everybody together." The multi-site church that it's like, "Yeah, but strive everybody in to like have these these conversations because we just need to be in the room for it." By the fact that when, uh, when I meet and through Stadia, just meeting more and more from a lot of these guys, it's like, "Well, yeah, of course we think we can do discipleship online. We do everything else online. Like, it's not that far of a jump." I know I felt sure. Here's the tipping point in my in my estimation, 'cause online's been around for a long time, right? Especially training and all that stuff. I think the tipping point was when LinkedIn bought Lynda.com. What was it like for two billion dollars or something? I thought a few couple years ago. Yeah, honestly, I think that was the tipping point. You're gonna have to explain that because that sounds really deep. I don't, tell me why. Why is that the tipping point?

So online's been around for a while, and there's a sense of, you know, the educational world has definitely lagged behind, but the church world has lagged even more behind. I am obviously you got guys like Leonard Sweet or just like living fifty years in the future and half life and there's all that stuff, right? I mean, the guy's brilliant, but he literally from another century. Yeah, like he is so ahead of us, right? So yeah, in light of all he's got, he's got the Doctor Strange powers where he could like all the alternate realities. Yeah, four point seven million, and this is the one. This is the one I love. Leonard's we keep going. I know, I know. And and by the way, I mean, see PLF, Church Planning Leadership Fellowship, Stadia comes to it, but you should definitely come in July and we can, he's gonna be speaking with us. It's all its responding stuff. So we can't. Awesome, I love it. But basically, the reason I believe LinkedIn buying Lynda.com was a tipping point is because you had all of these online training platforms forming. Lynda.com, professional services, and you got Skillshare and Ministry Grid and Right Now Media, and you had all these different online kind of platforms out there educationally wise. Moodle, Blackboard was way behind, way behind, right? And then you had Canvas kind of start up, and it's like, "Oh, looks better," but it's kind of just a facelift. And so all this was stirring, right? All this was stirring. And then LinkedIn bought Lynda.com. I'd I could be incorrect, but I think you two billion dollars, but I mean I might be way off, but I knows a lot of money. A lot of money. When that happened, you began seeing a tipping point where around that time YouTube then invested into YouTube education. Ted did create this platform, right? So then and then Masterclass, which was I mean, this is high and online training where there I mean I did the Malcolm Gladwell writing one. I was gifted that, right? And you can learn, or you can learn, you know, cooking from Gordon Ramsay, and you're it's just like, but literally the amount of money that was poured in, the venture capital investment that's now being poured into Masterclass and all, I mean, it was just a, "Oh, right?" It was just so fast. But I found it was ticking along very slowly up until that point. And then, you know, Zoom is not like, "Who doesn't use Zoom?" I mean, we're using Zoom right now, but it's just, it was just, yeah. So I think within the church world we've gotten to that point now where everyone like online, you know, development, every if someone's in a white collar kind of job, even if they're in a blue collar job, development, ongoing development is important, certification is important, and it's more and more and more online. So why are we lagging so behind as a church? I I love everything about this, this entire conversation. This has been the highlight of a crazy couple weeks. Yeah, I want ask this. Yeah, yeah, thank you. I want to ask this one question 'cause I'm really interested. You've set this question up so perfectly I don't even need to really except I want to educate you on on my terms, okay? Through Stadia, they hired me to be director of digital church planting. We are literally trying to figure out what a digital only expression of church looks like. As part of that, we're wrestling with the biblical ecclesiology of what are the biblical functions and not how do we mirror what happens in physical space and do it virtually, but how best can we do virtually what the Bible calls us to do? So example, teaching. We're doing a forty minute sermon on a platform. Well, is a forty minute sermon the best way to come teaching? Actually had had an audit guy tell me, "Hey, you know what? Paul wrote when he taught. That means that writings okay. Why don't we just write?" And I'm like, "Waiter, you tell me that teaching could be blogged format like that?" Nobody has. I have never heard that, but somebody just kind of, and this is a guy I trust, Jason Morris from Westside Family, and just, and so we're we're having lots of these fun conversations in process to try to figure out how a church can function one hundred percent digitally. There's guys like, and I may throw some things out that you don't know, but DJ Soto's doing VR Church. I know if you're, yeah, Jade Earhart is doing a video game, a church is that movie in that direction, but he's got a discipleship platform front through Discord, literally disciple Nvidia gamers who are going out and witnessing while playing Xbox video games, winning people to Christ while winning Destiny to it. It's just it's crazy stuff. So here's my question to you, okay? Because the average person had just explodes. Well, I talk about a lot on the podcast, so if they listen regularly they've already exploded and it's old news, but for you, I want to ask this question. What are the challenges? What what's the direction? What advice? Because we are pioneering towards his digital church. Thank you. Obviously through the past hour have a very good understanding of discipleship and digital, which are two of the things that I am building this foundation of digital church on. I would love to know your knee-jerk reaction, and would you be willing to think about it and come back and have another conversation later? We can get the number to number one. What's your knee-jerk reaction when I talk about a digital only expression of worship? Yeah, okay. So I've done a lot of thinking around this too. Yeah, obviously, obviously not as much as you, yeah. So but what, boy, when it comes to this, here's the thing. The role of the preach, right? The role of the preach, the role of that community. I still honestly do believe that that's a very important thing for the formation of our people. So yes, we you need to be self feeders. Yes, we need to from the research really be focusing on reading the Bible and being in community and all that stuff. But that gathered expression, that gathered expression is such an important piece of formation that honestly I don't, you're right, I don't think it has to be in person, but there is an praise the Lord were Protestants and we, you know, when it comes to communion, it's just get your own juice and crackers and you know let's do communion together. I think that's fine. In fact, our church, my church, sure Beulah, it's ninety-nine years old, used to do radio preaching back in like the thirties, forties where it would be printed in the newspaper. "Hey, get your bread and your crackers, right, or your bread and your juice ready because we're no kidding this Sunday over the radio." Yeah, they would. So and bring your own communion and like the thirties and the forties. Exactly, yeah. That is a phenomenal story. I love that. Yeah, that's great. So and my church here, I mean, over sixty church plant citizens origin. So it's I mean, I love multiplication.

I love being back here in Canada, but having said all that, yes, the gathered experience is so important. We can do it online. I believe it can be. I don't know. I haven't heard a lot of expressions of it being done well, really well online, and I think the technology is still growing. It's still advancing, and there's that—it's that tip. I don't think the tipping point's been met yet on this piece. On this piece, who knows what the coronavirus is gonna do? Like, literally, I just—I really do wonder what the coronavirus is gonna do to church online and how it's gonna be moving, how it's gonna advance a lot of that too. But let's say I think the jury's still out in terms of what's the most effective way to do it. But let's experiment. So I'm not taking that as a roaring endorsement, but I am taking that as, hey, little bit interesting to see how far you get.

Yeah, there's the reality is, and I love Stadia for doing this. Is there, hey, we want to throw some research and development behind this? And even the posture of when I work with, when I talk specifically with churches that we're looking at to plant these, it's, it's, hey, we're experimenting. Come be part of the experiment with us. Actually, I'm one of the pastors shot me an email, and this may be a bad thing, but he's like, whether or not we're actually successful in this, we feel like God's calling us to because where we fail and where we succeed, someone else will come behind us. Yeah. So the posture of Stadia, which I love, is we're gonna experiment and we're gonna learn through this process, and if we're successful, awesome. The people behind us are gonna have a better shot. And somebody, you know, hate to say somebody's got to be first, but I feel like honestly, like I've been wanting to do this, and I don't mean to overstate here, but it's literally been twenty years. I graduated from college in 1999, started a dot-com right there in the dot-com boom towards helping churches work through this stuff like in 2000, right after Y2K. And it's like I'm trying to find somebody, and man, just did the band ounce danced back and forth between gigs, and Stadia is like, hey, come over here, let's talk. Yeah. And seeing how they've run with this has been exciting. That's—I hate I hate to say it like I'm gonna call you out. Like I'm building some of this stuff around the principles of what you're doing. You're not showing me enough love back. That's—I love you. I still would have these conversations. I still would have come to the conference in July. I'll have the conference in July. This will be good. Wheaton. Oh, that's awesome. Very, very cool. Whoa, for a lot of trouble, who knows? Yeah, I was about to say there's a bunch of things happening, but hopefully, hopefully we can get it figured out then. Yeah. Yes. So listen, seriously, and I'll turn the corner. Thank you for this podcast. This has been, in a world of coronavirus that is just inundating the ability to laugh a little bit here, to talk about things that aren't corona sensitive. I hope my audience, who hopefully has a similar sense of humor as I do, they seem to enjoy these things. I hope they are enjoying this and a lot of the conversation. So thank you for this. Just as we're landing the plane, Daniel, any closing thoughts or anything that you want to say or a reference or hit on?

My church, we'd livestream. The number one, how I'm using, how we're using the livestream and leveraging the livestream, I really don't care if people watch it around the world. The one thing I really care about is those in Edmonton and using this as a front door and moving people from that to a gathered location. So I do believe that church online can be leveraged and should be leveraged, especially when the front door is yours is Instagram or—don't you think the front door is your website anymore? Depending on the age, is front doors. It's your Instagram account, depending on the age, or it's your livestream, or you know, for certain generations, it's your website. So leverage. How do you leverage that as the new lobby to get people into community and saved and pointed toward Christ and discipled? So yeah, I love it. I love the work that you're doing and the thinking that you're doing toward this. So thank you for doing that, man.

Awesome. And as long as that front door leads into an intentional discipleship process that's utilizing online to make disciples, I love everything that you just said. And so, and you're literally the guy that wrote the book. So who am I to question that? We're all about, you know, the no silver bullets you mentioned briefly. And let's just let you tag on it. What was the—you've got a more recent book that you publish? What gives these simple details on that?

Yeah, so it's called "You Are What You Do" and six other lies about work, life, and love. So it's a book basically on the fact that the gig economy is here, side hustling is—it's not the question anymore. It's moved from, have you heard of side hustles to, what is your side hustle? So it's just an increase. It's a fast-growing phenomenon, and I address seven lies that have risen to the surface because of this gig economy. And it's a fascinating perspective, I believe, on, here's our world is changing. This gig economy is affecting work. It's affecting life. It's affecting relationships. And here are seven ways that it's doing that. So it is a discipleship tool, but first and foremost, it really is a tool that I'm hoping that people would use toward evangelistic means because it is that. Since, here's the—you've heard it was said, but now I say to you, as it says, you know, Matthew five, with Jesus. So yeah, that's kind of the premise of the book. Your listeners can definitely look it up if they want.

Awesome. We'll throw some links on the show notes to vocal books, of course, "No Silver Bullets" as well as the six lies is what stuck with me. Boy, yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah. "You Are What You Do." Yeah. Which, by the way, why not gonna—yeah, it's a lie. I mean, I'm not gonna show it to my wife because I don't want to have to relive that conversation. So where we are doing very, very well. So Daniel, thank you very much for your time. We're gonna wrap here. For the Church Digital podcast audience out there, thanks for listening, and hope to see you next time here at the podcast. Y'all have a good day.