EP077: Tim Celek & Defining Matthew 28 by Focusing on the One

Episode 77 of the Church of Digital podcast powered by Stadia Church Planting. Jeff here. Okay, like I want to need everybody listening to this podcast go and do me a favor. Take off your church online hats. Don't look at this podcast. Don't expect to hear anything technological in context of this podcast. No social media, no church online, no chat online, small groups, nothing. We're stripping this podcast down to some of the bare basics of what we know of as church, whether it's online or even if it's physical, whether it's a church plant or even if it gets down to an established church that's been around for a long time.

You see, I've been hanging around the Stadia people, and the one thing that I have really loved about being on staff with Stadia and getting to know them and their culture and their DNA is I'm starting to realize how little I actually knew about church, even though I've been on staff with the church, like different churches, like fifteen years of my life. And I'm discovering new ideas and new thoughts, and it's like, "My gosh, we need to let others know about this." And there's one of these conversations, and this is we're gonna have a string of these things. They're all gonna piece together because my proverbial brain has exploded several times starting on this thread.

And the first part of this conversation that I want you audience out there to start to understand is the concept of the one. You see, I didn't understand this in my church experience, in my church online experience, working with multiple churches across the country, different denominations, different sizes. I just didn't really have a grasp on this until I started hanging around some Stadia people, and all of a sudden, like the idea started to grow and it started to become this much larger thing that I can't wait to share.

Here's what I need to understand: What is your one? Whether your physical church, whether the original church, whether you're a church online, whether their church plant, whether they are established, what is it? Because you see, I think once you figure out your one and once you understand the principle of the one for the individuals, all of a sudden you're realizing your church has far greater impact than what it did with the one hour on Sunday.

And I'm giving stuff away, and really you don't need to hear it from me. I want you to hear from somebody who's lived this for thirty years of his life. And so, plus thirty-plus years of his life, I'm bringing in Tim Selleck into the conversation. Tim, you may not know, he is director of new church growth at Stadia Church Planting, a great guy, one of these relationships that I've loved in the short amount of time I've been at Stadia, just listening to him and learning from him in this process.

So Tim was a former lead pastor at the Crossing Church in Costa Mesa and really brings a phenomenal story of a church that was hugely evangelical, was hugely outward-facing, public-facing in bringing the one in. Tim's philosophy of how to understand the one and how to help others understand their ones is something that I want everyone who listens to this podcast to understand, because I truly believe this is gonna change your church and this is gonna change your church online and the way that we approach ministry overall. It's that good.

So into this conversation I'm bringing in Tim Selleck, once again director of new church growth with Stadia, former lead pastor at the Crossing for thirty-plus years, church planter way back in the day. I'm also bringing in Emily Diaz, who's one of the Stadia project managers and co-host here with the show on a number of different shows now. In a conversation that I'm simply calling "Church, Church Online, and Finding Your One."

Okay, everybody, here you go.

I planted a church in the fall of 1988, September of 1988 to be specific, in Orange County, California, in the city of Costa Mesa. And at that time, and even to today, Costa Mesa was not a growing community. It was about one hundred ten thousand when we planted. It's about one hundred thirty-three thousand now. And so we planted and grew a church over thirty years. The church took so many different twists and turns because our community went from being primarily Caucasian, ninety-three percent Caucasian, seven percent other, to realistically today, fifty percent Hispanic, about forty-five percent Caucasian, five percent other. So there was a lot of shifts there.

But what we started as a church, day one, day one, we started with this philosophy that we were going to be focused. The way we said it is on somebody who was saying no to God, and we wanted them to say yes to him through his Son, Jesus Christ. So that was the focus. It was a drum beat from day one, and I kept beating that drum all the way until I handed the baton of leadership off on its thirtieth anniversary in the fall, or September of 2018. And I stepped up on a Stadia staff. They graciously allowed me to be a part of the organization to encourage people who were and are where I was as a planter.

So I get the opportunity now as the director of new church growth to really just encourage, encourage, cheer lead, coach, consult, "attaboy," "attagirl," planters who are a couple months with, for launch, to roughly two years after launch. So that's me.

One of the things that I love about Tim is when you start to have conversations with him, you can see that he bleeds this stuff. And from the thirty-plus years of his church and now working with Stadia, where he's helping other church planters now go out there and plant churches with us with this just different mindset of the one.

So Tim, just for the audience here, to find the one, what does the one mean in context of church today to you?

That's a good question. It's a great question. But I'd like to do it through sort of a story if I could. That's okay with you?

That's what I like to do it. So, and the cool part is Emily was the one who encouraged me to share this story, so at least I know one person out in the digital world that says this was a good deal. So here we go.

I actually moved out here to Costa Mesa. I didn't realize I was like right next to the ocean. I mean, well, there was a period of my ministry where I needed some as a hobby because I didn't have any. So a guy said, "Why don't you take up sailing?" And I did, and I really loved it. And then I got into sailboat racing, and I loved it. And one time we were actually on a sailboat race, very, very windy race, participating off the coast of Santa Barbara, California. There's these islands called the Channel Islands. And we were going between two of them, Santa Cruz Island and Anacapa Island. And what happened was, as we were sailing between it, the wind picked up so much. And what you try to do on those islands, you try to get close to them because you could actually speed up, you know, and you go faster. Well, what happened was on that day, some boats, at least one boat, got way too close. And what they didn't realize is there's rock outcroppings that you can't see.

And I'm at the helm of the boat I was on, and I hear this distressed signal. It's like 911 over the water, okay? And one of the sailboats was literally in trouble. It got too close to the island. And some boats began to respond. They broke their course, responded to the distress signal. But they soon realized they didn't have what they needed on their boat, and their boat wasn't really adept at trying to get to those people. So they abandoned going for the people. And then, the short of the story, some of the people, they died that day at sea.

And so after that, what I did was I actually did some research on boats. I don't know if you know this, but a long time ago in New England, there were some societies actually called rescue societies that popped up. They were quite popular. And what happened was these like adventurous men and women went out and they would join them because they themselves were once rescued as sailors or boarders. And what do they do? They go out in the Atlantic Ocean. They rescue boats, people were in trouble. They bring them back to dry land. And that was a matter of course for them. Folks did this, and the people felt burdened for them. And so they kept doing it.

Well, after these rescue attempts, what would happen was they would come back together as a rescue outfit. And they would then recover. They'd share meals. They'd share stories. And yet, because they knew what it was like to be rescued, they'd get back in the boat and they'd go back out. And then they'd come back and they'd share some more meals, more stories, some more drinks. And what took place over time was these rescue societies got tired of rescuing. They loved the meals. They loved the camaraderie. They loved the bonding. But they began—are you ready for this?—they began Yacht Clubs, okay?

What began today is the modern American Yacht Club in many cases started in New England. They emerged from rescue societies. It began for groups of people who were into rescuing people. And after a while, they said, "You know what? Let's just chill. Let's enjoy the meals. Let's enjoy the drinks. Let's enjoy it all this and just relax." And what you read about those stories is that after a while, a few of them—a lot of them didn't leave the comforts of the Yacht Club. But eventually, over time, a new group of them, usually people who were rescued, they would get the burden again. They'd leave the comfort of the Yacht Club, and they would go out again and rescue people and save people. And they would do this all the while their friends were eating and drinking and fellowshipping. They'd go.

And what's important, I think, for all of us on this podcast—me first included—we just need to understand something: the church is not a Yacht Club. The church is not a place where we sit in lounge chairs, sip our drinks, eat good food, and forget all the people out there who are perishing. The church is a Rescue Society. It's a rescue culture.

So, Jeff, you asking a question: where does the one come from? Okay, so I'm from Luke 15. And this is a passage that I mean Emily knows by heart, you know, about heart. Anybody listening to this who's in church, you know the passage by heart, okay? It says there in that passage that tax collectors and other notorious sinners often came to Jesus to listen to him teach. That's what I'm reading straight from the scriptures now. Parenthetically, I'm wondering how many of you who are listening right now, how many of you are like Jesus? And how many of you right now have or will have these sorts of people coming to hear you teach? Notorious sinners, okay? And tax collectors. Let me tell you, before warrant, if you have them come, you're going to be in a lot of trouble with all the religious church-going people in your church. Just letting you know that right now, okay?

And so you just need to know that because it's no different. And then so Jesus, he made up this story for the Pharisees and the teachers of religious law. They were complaining that he was associating with the sinners and even eating with them. Now, can you believe it? So here's what he said. He told a story: "If a man has a hundred sheep and one gets lost, what will he do? Will he leave the ninety-nine others in the wilderness and go search for the one that's lost until he finds it?" In other words, Jesus left the Yacht Club and all the comforts, and he went back in the boat for the one person who was perishing. That's where the concept of the one comes from.

I love it. I love your story, and I've seen that story, and the way it's hitting straight to the heart of church planters as well, Tim, because I think unfortunately a lot of us who've been in ministry for a lot of time are real familiar with Yacht Club and are real familiar with places and houses of worship that feel really comfy and cozy. And being a Rescue Society seems really risky and is not something that we're comfortable with or even familiar with.

With so talk to me about what that looks like when that story hits straight to the heart and I understand I've been a part of a yacht club but I'm called to start a new church and I don't want it to be a rescue society. So how does this passion for the one start at the individual basis as becoming a personal mission for church planters, Emily? That is like the best question, other than just question to find the one that you could actually ask. And here's why: because if you go back to Jesus' story in Luke 15, and we all know the story so well, I mean it's like we could almost, you know, I've heard so many people just say ninety-nine and one. Well, one of the main principles of Jesus, this concept of the one, must become personal before it comes organizational. I mean, if you just look at the story: if a man—and I would insert in there woman—has a hundred sheep, what will he do? What will she do? Won't he leave the ninety-nine and go out in the wilderness, search for the one who's lost until he finds it? It's a critical story for every church leader, every church planter, every pastor to understand. And what I'm very passionate about is evangelism that's made its way into our churches as a program, which is really at the heart of it all—going after the one. It's got to be a personal conviction and passion that is born out of the reality that I, too, Emily, Jeff, you, too, have been rescued.

I mean, like, okay, so pastors teach tithing, right? And like, this is like a pastor teaches on tithing and does not give is basically saying, "Do as I say, not as I do," right? Well, why do we give? Because God needs our money? No, freaking way. God doesn't need our money, okay? We give out of an abundantly grateful heart that Jesus gave it all, and for me to return a portion back is the least I could do to display my thankfulness and gratitude. Tithing ought to be a personal conviction and passion for a Christian long before it's an organizational reality, because your church needs the money, right? And so churches become generous because the person or persons at the helm are generous. They give lavishly and generously.

So the one has to be a personal, passionate conviction for every rescued person. They realize it, they go for it. So when I see a pastor—and I've seen some—and nonprofit organizations who asked me to get their money, one of the first questions you've heard me say this, Emily—well, the first question I'll ask is, "Show me your giving records." Because if you're not willing to do that, I'm not gonna do what you're not doing. How dare you? And so the same thing I'd say to a pastor who begins an evangelism program in a church or focus is their church so that the church would relate to the one what they themselves don't relate to another person who's far from God. That's like, how dare you? I mean, because have you lost sight of who you are and what God has done through His Son Jesus Christ for you?

So for the church planter that here's your challenge, and takes it really seriously and says, "You're right, and how dare I? How dare I implement this in my church if I'm not living it personally?" But then stands at a loss saying, "But shamefully, I don't know how to go from here." What would you say? How does the church planter take steps towards being living life with the one?

Well, the thing I really appreciate about Stadia—and Jeff, you've seen this, Emily, you've seen this—I think anybody affiliated with Stadia knows this: we are very Bible-focused and vision-centric. And so I, you'll hear me a lot today if you ask me questions, go right back to the Bible. Colossians 4, Colossians 4:3 through 6. Again, who is he writing to? The church at Colossae. It's a church. It's not a building, okay? It's not a digital place. It's not a physical place. It's people who are gathered. And this is what he says: "If there's no Calvin, read and pray for us so that God may open a door for our message so that we may proclaim the mystery of Christ for which I'm in chains." So he's in prison. Pray that I might proclaim it clearly as I should. Then he says to them—that's you, Emily, me, him, you, Jeff—he says to us, "Be wise in the way you act toward outsiders. Make the most of every opportunity. Let your conversations always be full of grace, seasoned with salt, so that you'd know how to answer everyone."

So what I would say to a planter, I would say to a planter's launch team, I would say to a pastor in any established church: first step, first principle. He says to us, "Be wise." And God seems to say to us as church, Christ-following people, "Be wise in the way you act toward those outside the realm of faith." Why? Well, it seems as if God is indicating people far from God watch our lives and the spirit and the attitudes of those who are calling themselves Christ's followers. And you know as well as I do, that's either gonna repel them or it's gonna draw them. And none of us, I think, that have understood that we have been rescued ourselves, none of us want to repel people who are the ones.

But then principle number two, what I think is again Paul just affirms what Jesus does, and he says get person. Why do I say that? He says, "Let your conversation"—now I know about you, but when you understand the concept of the one and conversation is very different from how we see it in our day and age. Conversations take place in personal relationships. We've become a chatting culture these days, Jeff. I don't want to demean all of us because we all love digital. I've got an iPhone and iPad, a MacBook that I'm watching this on now. My wife's got 'em all. I mean, in this COVID-19 season that we're in—well, this is being taped—we've got seventeen different devices on routers. Oh geez, okay. So but anyway, we've become a chatting culture these days. It's like we're no longer a conversation culture, and conversation happens between people who are interpersonally connected and there's invested relationships. Chatting happens simply between acquaintances now.

Let me say there's nothing wrong with chatting because it can lead to a conversation, but often when I see these days for people who say they want to reach the one, what I think happens so often these days for pastors and planters, church leaders—we're good at chatting. We hear a message on advantages and we go, "Oh, I'll talk to the barista about Jesus. Come to my church." Is there any relationship? No. Is there any desire to have a relationship in reality? No. But I did the chat. That was a quick, superficial engagement. And what? But it's just a chat. It didn't lead anywhere. And I think sometimes it doesn't lead to conversations because did you see that in Colossians where it says, "Always be full of grace"? So our lead card in any and all conversations—face to face, text, Zoom, you know, social media—must be saturated in grace and kindness and understanding.

And then the last thing, Emily, to your question, like, "How do I go about this process?" I think you have to understand that once in a while, as you have these relationships with the ones, there's going to be times where you're going to need to take a stand. But that's number three. That's not number one, because he says, "Let your conversations be seasoned with salt." So it's the third in the progression. And I personally, I kind of resonate—this is just me personally—I don't know him, so I'm name-dropping, not because I know the person, but Tim Keller. He says that, and I agree with it, that we're gonna need to take a stand. We ought to be, you know, like sold out for racial justice. We ought to be super charged and concerned over the poor. Pro-life. And also, Christians should believe Christians that sex should only be between a man and a woman in marriage. Now I know I just dropped bombs, but I'm just telling you that. But that's after invested conversations and interpersonal interactions. That's after wisdom that might come to play. I hope that's how I go about it. That's how I try to go about it.

And you know, here's the last thing I'll say on that: as a paid Christian professional, I'll admit it is hard because one of the greatest tragedies of Christianity that unfolds in most of our lives is that we become more and more insulated around a Christian subculture in a Christian bubble. And so most of us—let's just be honest. If you're listening today, you just be honest: do you have this relationship? Because the greatest gift you can give to another human being is an introduction to the God who loves them. And I don't know about you, but I want to be the kind of person someday who says, "Hey, thanks for not giving up on me. Hey, thanks for coming after me. Thanks for forgetting in the boat and seeking to be about rescuing me." That's it. But it's hard. I mean, having said all I said, I just identify with everybody. It's hard. I struggle with it even more now at Stadia than I did as a lead pastor of a local church.

Yeah, there's a lot of controversialness in there. And I don't even want to back up even before the three. You only have seventeen network devices in your house? That's it? Yeah, I'm kind of surprised at that. I was like, I don't know, maybe it's the kids that I've got, but I'm probably in the forties or fifties. Oh yeah, you're like the digital Superman. I mean, come on. Evidently, and it all goes down because the ISP wigs out. So like, I feel it. But no, seriously, there's some really rich ideas in there. Let's follow up on it. Maybe it's controversial, maybe it's not. But well, I go after the one instead of going after everyone. Like, I am not a thirty-year lead pastor, and so like, teach me in this. Help me understand. I look at, you know, verses like First Corinthians 9, I think it's 22. "I become all things to all people." You know, Paul's talking about, "By all means possible, I might save some." You know, and I've had pastors tell me that we need to be doing everything and getting out there and trying to reach everyone. And that really kind of challenges even some of my own ideas of individual relationships and building off of that. And so I feel that tension. Others out there feel that tension. Help us, help us understand here how to balance that. What? How should we handle the situation?

Well, I think you have to again just let's remember this is personal before it's organizational. So that's critical, right? And when Paul is writing that, who is he writing it to? The Corinthian church. So he's writing it to people like you, Jeff, like you, Emily, like me, Tim, right? And if you go through the whole context of the passage, the whole context of the passage, he says, "When I was with the Jews, I lived like a Jew to bring the Jews to Jesus Christ." And then, you know, he says, "When I was with those who follow the Jewish law, I too lived under the law, and though I'm not subject to the law, I did that so I could bring those people to Christ. When I'm with Gentiles, another people group, okay, I did. They don't follow Jewish law. I lived apart from the law so I could bring them to Christ." And then he goes on, "When I was with those who are weak, I share their weaknesses, for I want to bring the weak to Christ."

So then your part that you quoted, Jeff—a lot of people take that out of context. "Yes, I try to find common ground with everyone, doing everything I can to save some." So then what everybody says is in a church context. But remember, we're not dealing with organizational reality yet. But a church is comprised of a bunch of different individual ones. Jeff is the one unit. You know, just got a wife, kids. At each one, Emily, you know, a BL, Tim, Sue. So he lists out specific groups: three Jewish folks, Gentile folks, and weak folks. He was trying to find common ground. Paul was a unique dude. He was a multifaceted, multirelational guy, okay? And I think what he's saying is this: he's got some things he was, he was, he was.

A Jew of all Jews, he tells us in the scriptures, right? He got redirected him to the Gentiles and he was weak. He had his own pain in his side, you know? So he's saying, okay, I have some things that put me around some ones who could in reality be my one.

And, and, and I think we'd all have to agree on this podcast, like just in the three of us here, we've all got our something. For you, Jeff, it might be digital. I also know that you happen to enjoy the martial arts, so for you it could be the mic, the martial arts, could be or something. Okay, Emily, your something I know because of Ciudad Garcia, it is you got grafted into a Hispanic culture. Okay, that's one of your somethings. What's another something that I don't know about Emily that we all need to know? I'm a hiker. Okay, they're your hiker. And God bless hikers. Okay, in other words, it's not your something is not my something, man. Wow, yeah, well, you know what? I go out to the desert in Palm Springs area and there's all these people have maps of hikes to do out there, and then you'll go see how groups doing the hike and I go, oh, you know, go for it. I'm gonna stay on my motorcycle. I watch you all go up into the hills, but my something, my something happens to be working out in motorcycles. Okay, and so, you know, the cool part to me about this, Jeff, and the question you ask is we each have our something, and Paul was saying we get to choose because of that something is going to put us around someone's will. We choose to place ourselves with the one of Jesus's terminology so that you can bring that one to Jesus Christ. So if you bring your ones, I bring my ones, Emily brings her ones, that's everyone. I mean, from a contextual standpoint, okay. Um, like, okay, I'm gonna just bear a little bit my soul right now for some of you. My one, I recessed like motorcycles for years. I've had people, I've had people say you need to join a Christian motorcycle club. Okay, I'm gonna tell you right now before Jeff gets emails about this, there's nothing wrong with that. Those are great. They do great things. But I just want to say gag me, okay? Because the way I see it, because of my personal and passionate conviction that I have been rescued, I'm gonna leverage my one, some thing, which happens to be one of those is motorcycle riding, to be with someone who is the one, just like I mentioned sailboating a little bit earlier. Our sailboat race team, it's comprised of people who are what we would categorize as one. There's six to eight people on the crew. There's only two of us, maybe three on the crew, that would be people who have already crossed that line of faith and said yes to Jesus because they were rescued on themselves. So I'm gonna do everything I can in the Spirit of God to put my life around people who do something that I like to do, be around them, and then see me be used to save some, not through my power, but through the Holy Spirit's power working through me. Does that make sense?

Yeah, it totally does. And you've made it clear, Tim, and just obviously your passion and what you've said, that it starts with a personal conviction. It starts with that leader not only having that personal conviction but leading that out and living in that way, living in whatever their one thing is with ones engaging in life with them. And then the hope is, right, as church leaders, as church planters, that that culture that is convicted within one person spreads to the organization. It spreads to the church that they are starting. So when we start to see churches transform from being those Jakub club societies to actual rescue societies, what are some of the benefits and what are some of the challenges that that can create within those churches?

Do you really want to know? Okay, that's the question. I mean, because the benefits are many, but the first benefit is I love this. You develop real Christ-like maturity in those people because now they're on the mission of Jesus Christ. Luke 19:10, again, I'm going to keep sticking with the Bible, okay? The Son of Man, Jesus, came to seek and save that which is lost. In other words, Jesus came on a search and rescue mission to those who are lost, to those who are drying the grounding. He left the ninety-nine, go for the one. And in that case, in that story in Luke 19, is the Zacchaeus was a wee little man, a wee little man was he. Remember that guy? You got to ask yourself, church planter, church pastor, do you have a marina mentality? Because Emily asked about that. If an entire church is focused on the one, the idea of consumerism leaves. Cause the phrase you hear in everything, every church is feed me, feed me, feed me. I was in a mentoring group with a guy who I dearly loved from a church nearby, and one day in the mentoring group, he just said, he just said, this is our first question, okay? Um, what's the number one reason people leave your church? He first looked at this one guy who I think is like the best Bible teacher in the whole United States. The guy goes, all the reason people leave my church is cause they're not being fed. And then he went to the next guy and that's what he said. The nice guy, that's what he said. Nice guy, that's what he said. And so what happens is when everybody's on point and mission, and when you're on mission, Jesus's mission, you actually mature because babies and teenagers think only and always about their freaking selves. Adults think about others, others. So that's a benefit. Is that okay to say it that way?

Yeah, I mean, I just, because your church, if she gets more mature, you know, you think, then the second benefit is, and this is what I love about the Crossing that I got to be a part of, your church will always be a safe place to hear the dangerous and scandalous message of Jesus, cause if everyone is inviting, you know, based on there's something to someone who's a one, two, let's say a weekend gathering or to a small group or to an outreach event, to a digital event, okay, if everyone's inviting their one, the entire game has changed because everyone's showing up and they're always thinking about what this is gonna look like through the eyes of the person who's sitting next to me on my shoulder. What does this think about to the person who's going with us to this, this food serving event in our community? When the questions are asking a small group, because the marina mentality leaves, what happens is we now ask questions and groups differently because now we realize that everybody, even knows what the Bible's, let's talk about this. Because what you're talking about in Stadia, who I love, is active in teaching this ideology of the one to a church planner, where it's you're starting with the seed that's growing out. You're establishing that DNA with the planter who then plants that the church with this the one mindset. You know, a lot of the audience of the Church Digital are our existing churches, physical, digital church on lines, but they're their existing established churches. To use your word earlier, um, how difficult is it converting a church, an existing established church, to this the one mentality? How difficult is it converting a church that's fully analog and physical to a digital reality? Over the past three to four months, when this time, this podcast is being aired, every church has experienced a lot of tension, a lot of turmoil, a lot of consternation, even wondering how many people are still a part of their church, really even watching their church, engaging with the content that's being produced by their church, okay? So I mean, anytime you introduce the new order of things, it becomes problematic for something that's already established. So I will say this, okay? It's much easier to start a church with this focus, but please hear me, if you haven't heard it already to this podcast, it's gotta be personal in the life of you, the planter. And I'll just say we've always heard, all heard the phrase, it's easier to have a baby that you know than it is to raise the dead, okay? Because if you're going to convert a church to the one mentality, you need to understand some change theory and change management. This is one of those initiatives. I'll be frank, it could kill a church. There's tons of tension in this. There's just lots of tension in this. But here's the good part. If you try this, okay, once you get passionate about this, whenever you carry out the life in the way of Jesus, it always is gonna hurt for those who call themselves church-going people. So you're like, Jesus, whoa, I mean, like, we're following Jesus, that's a good thing, right? The famous story in Mark 2, those four friends cut a hole in the roof so the paralyzed guy could come down. What happened right after that happen? Well, it tells us really quickly that, you know, they get involved. There's something was about physically challenged people. Let's put in the context. There's something was physically challenged people. They were around as someone was the one who needed what Jesus had to offer. So they take him there. And now, what happens? The religious church-going people, they got all up in arms with the with Jesus over that very thing. And I'll tell you, one of the things that you just need to know is if you're willing to offend church-going people, then go for it. And that's what those people did. The story of Zacchaeus, I love the stories. The key, that's why, well, the mission of Jesus is in their Luke 19:10. But you know what? No one saw Jesus in the trees, and there are religious people. But Jesus got saved that day. And instead of people posting it on Facebook, Instagram, Twitter, no, what did they do? All the people in Luke 19:7, it says all the people saw this, this, this, this sinful guy gets saved, and they began to mutter and complain and gripe because Jesus has gone to be the guest of a sinner. So you want to tell me, you want me to say, okay, you want to do this in your church, you're gonna have to just get ready for some gossiping, some grumbling, some griping, some whining and complaining. But that's common whenever God is moving in the heart of someone who senses that they were rescued from the depths of despair in hell. They were rescued by Savior Jesus. And then they, because of that rescue, personally keep going back in the boat, back in the boat, back in the boat, never staying in the yacht club because they never forgot what it was like to be lost.

It would seem to me having a church focusing on on the ones and the church of one's kind of becomes monotonous. We're reaching the same people and and and I don't know that that's a good thing. I don't know that that's a that's a bad thing. Even looking at you know types of people, spiritual giftings, you know, race, even in this world that we're in now, how does a church that's focusing on the ones not become overly monotonous in context of the film one?

Yeah, and the reality is that's when the tension, I think realistically in the United States, these are you know, since the transition of the, I'm going to call just in simple terms, the contemporary church where shift started taking place. And I will say it this way, Jeff. You will never drift toward the front half of the Great Commission a church easily drifts to the second half of the Great Commission. Front half of the Great Commission is go and make disciples. Go make disciples. We hear the word disciple, so we think fully orbed, fully mature, no longer baby feeding you, no milk drinking milk drinking Christians. So no, but the cycle is just nothing more than a learner. It's just the beginning steps. Go make disciples. What then? Teaching them, baptize in the name of the Holy Spirit, right? Father, Son, Holy Spirit. And then teach them to obey everything I have commanded you. That's the half of the Great Commission. Well, the way I would said is this. Does it become an honest to be ninety-nine point nine percent? The churches that are just floating in the cesspool of the back half of the Great Commission.

Commission instead of wholeheartedly and passionately with a white-hot fervor toward the front half of the Great Commission. And the way another way to say it would be like this: Jeff, does be a digital evangelist because that's what you are. Jeff, does being a digital evangelist ever get monotonous? Yes or no?

Yeah, I'll say yes. That's okay. It will. When do you think it will? When culture shifts away from digital being the method. And how long do you think that'll be?

It's gonna be a while. Yeah, so you got a good run, probably at least as long as you're still on this earth. And the unique part about digital, it's just a form that's based on a function. I mean, really, right? Cheers is a form that is a function to sit. A digital is an expression that's a form that needs a function, right? And so the reality is you're right, but the reality is Jesus is never-ending. He's the Alpha and the Omega. And when someone, or someone's truly stay passionate about the fact that they were rescued, I mean truly, that never saves changes. That never ends. And we at Stadia, we say until every child has a church. That's our focus. And what do we have a church for? So people can be in a marina in a yacht club drinking, you know, fellowshipping, eating? No. We have a church according to Jesus to seek and save those who are lost. Do we want those people to grow up and become like Jesus? And always those little ones as they age? Yes. But as they age and become like Jesus, what are they gonna do? They're gonna go back out in their streets, in their communities, in their cities, in their countries, in their neighborhoods. And they're gonna go back and they're gonna tell people who are the one who are shepherd from the ninety-nine. And they're gonna say, I'm here for you. And I want, I want you to know about somebody that changed me, transform me altogether, altered me. And I've never been the same. And I want that for you too.

Yeah, well said. Well said. And in what I love about all of this is whether it's physical, whether it's digital, whether it's all that's the means to the end, which is making disciples. Having the front end of the Great Commission being challenged before people. And that's really where we as a church, whether physical, whether digital, whether online, any of those contexts, that's the endgame: making disciple piece. I was kind of pulling Tim's chain a little, but we were actually in a meeting and we were just recently talking about how digital is not the in method, that there's going to be something beyond digital. And whether we should brag about the physical aspects of yesterday or the digital aspects of today or tomorrow, all that's meaningless in context of the endgame. Isn't the tech, it's not the fad. It's actually this: the idea of making disciples who can turn, go, and make disciples. And that's what I love in context of this one. It keeps us focused with that outsider, with that one lost sheep at heart.

So hey, Tim, man, I just want to thank you for that, for the time. Hey, Emily, as we're wrapping up here, landing the plane on the podcast, any closing thoughts?

I'm grateful, Tim, for your perspective and your passion for the one. And I'm really hopeful for the big seed church that if we have this emblazoned passion for the one, that we will see real, true, authentic growth from people coming from being lost to being found and coming into the fold of Jesus. I'd love to see that too.

Well said there as well. Tim, closing thoughts from you as we're wrapping up?

I'll just keep beating the drum. I won't stop. It's personal before it's organizational. And pastor planter, don't dare, don't you dare cast a compelling vision for what you yourself are not willing to do. You and may need to be engaged with people who are the one. And then that flows out. It radiates. It is so compelling and is so life-altering. It'll change you and it'll change a church.

Yeah, men. You know, we often talk about the value in reaching people today is not within the building. And I would even take a step further: I don't think it's within a church online, on broadcast, or even a social media tweet at this point. I think that the value of changing an individual is in a relationship. And so whether that's in the physical or the virtual space, you know, I total group of pastors just recently. I was like, you don't have the power of the church anymore. It doesn't matter what you say. Matters far more about what others are saying about you. And mobilizing our people not as attenders or even as members, but another church soul mate, its activators in ministry, in activating them and releasing them out to reach their circle of influence.

We're gonna be talking a lot. We've talked a lot about this in the past. We're gonna be talking more about this. And Tim opening up here with the one is really just kind of the prelude for more conversations about effective ways for us as a church to reach people, to have this evangelism, to have this outward-facing really ministry model in place that may challenge a little bit about what we learned on the what we get from an established church. But really, if we're trying to start a movement, for trying to look at multiplication and get people beyond just an attender and activating them so that they're an army unleashed on the people they know, man, it's a lot more effective when you're focusing on the one. And when you've got individuals who are focusing on their respective one.

So Tim, man, thank you for this podcast. I really appreciate the time. For Emily, for Tim, this is Jeff at the Church Digital. Thanks for jumping on today, and we'll see you next time here at the show. You all a good day.