EP087: Stories & Strategy of a Digital-Only Expression of Church

Episode 87 of the Church Digital Podcast powered by Stadia Church Planning. Jeff Reed here. Hey, yes, so audio video looks a little different than it typically does. I'm actually on vacation. I'm at Vero Beach, Florida. I'm in a hotel room. I'm so passionate about digital only churches. I'm, let's pause the vacation. Let's come in and let's have a conversation talking about digital only churches here for the podcast. So here we are, we're doing a podcast on vacation from Vero Beach, Florida. They're behind the curtain there's literally like, you know, outside and sun and skies and it's awesome. But once again, it's cold season, so I'm stuck inside staring at the walls of a room even though it's sunny and beautiful outside because Florida is the hot spot of whatever awesome great stuff.

Hey, so let's talk about digital only churches. I put together a panel by the way. Stadia is doing digital only expressions of church. We're helping church planters figure out how to plant a church digitally, and that's that's our mission, that's our vision, that's our goal. I'm not saying it's my job title, but it's literally my job title. Director of digital only church planting. And so let's figure out how Stadia can help people like you make, maybe plant a digital only expression of church. We're starting some cohorts in September 2020, and we're looking for people, maybe like you, who are asking some questions. Hey, what's a digital only church? Look at some people like you to step up to come in here to learn how to plant a church only in digital only space. Not digital first that may one day grow into a physical environment. No, we're looking for people who want to do church to reach a digital community with the gospel in digital community to the end game of doing discipleship within the digital community. No physical footprint required.

Some of you out there are saying right now, hey, Jeff, that's crazy. Yeah, you know what, you're right, it is crazy. But there have been people that have been doing this for years, and this is the panel we're bringing into the conversation because, hey, I want you to meet crazy people who are actually doing this and to hear the stories of what crazy people sound like when they tell stories of the life change they're seeing when they do crazy stuff like plant the church in digital only space.

So for this conversation, we're bringing in three digital only church planters. We're bringing in Jade Earhart. Jade is no stranger to the podcast. He may actually hold the record right now for most times that he's been a guest on the podcast. We'll have to do the math there. He runs a church called Love Clan in Discord. His target is really video gamers, and he's using video games to connect with, engage in, this lead to Christ and disciple people in digital space. We're also bringing back Angela Craig. Angela, we did a podcast with her just recently. She is passionate about Facebook, and it's actually, I think, Assemblies of God's like their first social media church. It's not like there's a lot of other social media churches, but she's been in Assemblies of God, Church Pursuit Church Live on Facebook for a number of years. So we'll include links to their churches in the show notes. Links to their churches for you to check out. We're also bringing somebody new into the podcast. We're bringing Alina in, and Alina is part of the volunteer leadership of VR Church. Now, DJ Soto, we've done lots of conversations with him, good friends, and love the stuff that he is doing for the kingdom and virtual reality. And I was like, hey, DJ, come on this podcast, and DJ's like, I can't, man. I'm going to be on vacation. So am I, but he's more sabbatical. So I want to give him a space. I think he's up in the mountains somewhere where he doesn't have Wi-Fi because that's where a digital only person really vacations, where there's no Wi-Fi. Good for you, DJ. But I asked the next best thing. Hey, DJ, give me somebody else who's your best person to kind of speak into this, and he said you gotta talk to Alina. And so for this conversation, we're bringing in Alina from VR Church, we're bringing in Jay from Love Clan, we're bringing in Angela from Pursue Church Live, myself with the Church in Digital, as well as Stadia Church Planning to really have a conversation centered around the stories and the vision of a digital only church. And that's what you're getting: the stories, the vision, the strategies of a digital only expression of church.

Okay, everybody, here you go. Alina, maybe just even to kick us off, you want to maybe introduce yourself, talk about how you got connected with VR Church, kind of what that relationship is, and just tell us a little bit about that? Tell us your ministry story.

Wow, let's start. So long, I'm going to try and shorten that up. I have an illness. I've been ill for about ten years. I have a temperature problem. My vascular system, my neurological vascular system doesn't work, which makes me unable to go outside because if the temperature increases, I burn. Temperature goes down a little bit, I lose circulation. And that left me confined in my house for about seven years until just me and my husband, my cats, pretty isolated. Quarantine didn't know what to expect. I saw there's a church there. I thought that was crazy. That was my first reaction. That's crazy. So I had to go check it out, and when I did, I just, in that moment, I knew that this was it. And I had no experience, no anything. I just knew that I had to jump in and do whatever I really could to make sure that this, whatever I could do to make it grow, make it work, make it stay. Yeah, so I just started volunteering where I could, started making some things just so I get better. I didn't even realize I was just like trying to do my life groups, my other thing. So it's been a little bit better. And yeah, over a few years, I just ended up becoming a pastor virtually. And it's now pretty much all volunteering, voluntary. It's, you know, there's not a whole lot of financial support yet, as probably most of you know in ministry. But so yes, I'm here, and it's been there's so much work. I can't believe it, but my big self is still isolated to my home, but it's still a pain on a regular basis. I am happier now than I ever was. Ever. Like, it's close. I can't cry because they put mascara on, you know, and then the whole video thing. But yes, yes, it's just like insane. And so yeah, Pastor Soto and I, maybe about a year ago, just decided that I'm on board. And so we're going to not just do what we're doing now, but for however many years I have left in me, just continue. Just continue. And we're just gonna keep growing, and we already have another platform coming up. And the whole church is run by volunteers, and there's so many of them. I use trap. Everybody's picking up a good time.

Yeah, I love that, Alina. I love your heart. Kind of as I hear, you know, you're a volunteer, you're serving, you're contributing outside of a paying job. You're right, a lot of these digital only churches, the majority of them have literally no funding and are very much leaning on that volunteer structure in place to do ministry. And you know, these are one of the things, and we'll get to later about how maybe the physical church model and a digital only expression of church, there's some differences in the midst of that. But even just to open up to the group here, like, where did the idea of doing a digital only church come from? Like, you know, DJ obviously was doing his virtual reality, but Jay, Angela, like, what, at the beginning, what did this look like? What did a digital only church look like? What was the genesis, kind of concept here?

Six or seven years ago, I started doing groups on Facebook for women in leadership, and they were through the Assemblies of God. And the initial idea was to serve the women of the churches to raise up leaders in the churches. And what I found was forty percent of our groups in most cases were women that were not in the church. They were women who loved Jesus or were interested in faith, wanted to pursue purpose. They knew that they had a purpose, didn't know what it was, but they had been disconnected from church. Either they were hurt, they couldn't go, they couldn't get there on Sundays, maybe they had chronic illness or they were a single mom. Or there was a line of things that were keeping people from church. And then I was, I thought, well, doing some research, as you all know, speaking in the choir, they're over sixty percent of Americans won't attend a church. And that was really my heartbeat, was because I'm an includer and a connector and I want everybody to know that they matter. And so I asked our network what they thought of me trying a digital platform. And so they were like, well, go for it. At the time, they didn't approve it nationally from the national office, but I just was like, well, I'm gonna do this anyway. So that's how we got started, and that was our motivation: just people that couldn't go to church or didn't want to go to church.

You're seeing like sixty percent of people you quoted the stat won't engage at a physical location, are not interested in coming to the building. I've heard similar stats come from LifeWay. And so like for you, the genesis of creating Pursuit Church Live was this idea of, well, if I can't get them to the building, let me utilize these digital tools to engage with them, you know, at least in social media or in the digital space into church. Then now you started, Angela, you started in Bible study by doing that online. And like, at what point did it go from a Bible study to a church? Like, how did the idea grow? And more from just doing the online Bible studies to, you know, maybe where you are today? Kind of walk me through that trial and error.

When we first started in 2017, we tried every platform. We tried streaming to our website, we tried Instagram, we tried WhatsApp, we tried Facebook. And to be successful, I knew I needed to focus on one place. And Facebook right now has two point six five billion people coming to the doors. Now in COVID, and so that was the easiest, free platform. Like Alina, we are all volunteers as well. And so I just figured, well, we're gonna start there because Facebook will share what we're doing for free, and we have the biggest audience. And I didn't have one specific person that I was targeting at the time. I know you're supposed to do that, but I was just really open to including everyone. And I looked at the early church, and they met in homes. They came together wherever they could come together, not even in homes, but wherever they could come together, they came together. And now we come together online. So that's how we started.

It's beautiful. Can I just add, when you said about, you know, whether it be because they were hurt elsewhere or they spent physically, and how important that it is that this is available to everyone? This is such a huge drive and motivation for me as well. We have people all the time that come in that say, whether they maybe have been hurt in the past and they're just too afraid to go into a physical church, and what if they have the same experience? Where online, they can pop in. They don't like it, they can, you know, if it's not for them, they could just discreetly leave. They don't have to get up and walk out and be, so it's so much easier for them to just check it out, connecting people from all around the world. It's pretty awesome.

You know, DJ's told me stats, something like eighty to eighty-five percent of people—I don't know, misquote, so if you know the real thing, let me know—but DJ's talked about VR Church, eighty to eighty-five percent are people who are lost or atheists coming in, agnostics coming in to just experience it. Like, even the putting on of the goggles, taking...

them off like that's that's the exit plan if they're not comfortable if they don't they don't uh you know agree with what's happening um it's not like they're they're a captive audience and stuck in a location but even just to explore to experiment they're seeing that in that in that digital only realm.

Um with with the virtual reality what what is it like uh Elena doing ministry in an environment first off do you see that like having that large of of lostness being experienced in in the VR services and and what is it like to kind of do ministry in that type of environment it's exciting is what it is because um there's a difference I guess um and they're both wonderful but there's um a difference between um you know nurturing and feeding someone that already has their faith there's something extra exciting about bringing new people to to the Lord and it's happened so frequently I've even had like people that came in with the intent to troll um I just found out what trolling was a few years ago anyway they tend to come in and make a disaster and they actually did and then they came back the following Sunday because even though they came to make they still hear it they still receive it in there somewhere there's a little plant you know seeds there and I've actually had people there's someone that volunteers now it came back to me a couple weeks later um waited until after all the after service prayer was done 30 minutes he waited there and I'm like can I pray for you this is what we're doing at the moment and he's like no it's okay I just really want to apologize for my actions a couple weeks ago and he was trolling and he just told me his story and he was just devastated so much loss so much grief in this small amount of time and he just need to get out and um and I just said that's I am totally understanding this let's pray and we did pray like um he now serves that wrong future he still now serves at the our church um and there's just like wow that is a really incredible thing to not just see once in a blue moon but to see that's awesome hey you know we lots of it's it's interesting 85 you know that that's a very high number 60 don't want to set put in a building and so when we look at the people who are doing digital only one of the biggest differences between I'll say one up but one of it's not the only but one of is is this idea of it's much more open to uh to lost people or people who are cold to Christ maybe we should say it that way where they're they're not warm to it it's it's not a church experience necessarily for the 99s the people who are are warm to Christ but it's more focused off after going after that that evangelism component um what what are some what are some other things that when we look at a difference between a digital only church in a physical church experience you know I know Angela J you guys have had experience in in that physical space as well um what what is the difference between a digital only expression of church and maybe a physical church what what should some of us that are more comfortable in the physical realm what should we be looking for as a difference in a digital only expression um sure yeah I mean I think a lot of the um so like even just thinking about the last question kind of leads into this one where where where did the the reason for an online only church come from uh for us it's mostly by accident um you know it was just that that it I it was the plan to start a physical church you know our church is specifically for gamers so we do have kind of a targeted audience maybe less of not to not be inclusive but more it's sort of like um you know that you you have people that have a specific need uh and if they're not being heard you know like a lot of the Activision or Activision that's actually activation stuff that is happening right now um activists type level where we're saying this minority group is not being heard and it's not that we're saying we're not including everybody in it it's just this group needs to be heard right now and so um I saw that you know with the with gamers it was um a group of people that felt like they had been hurt by the church at large rather intentionally or not or everybody did that or not and so they were currently online and so my my thought was this is what I can do right now um I if I had the capacity if I had the money the ability I would have started a physical church but because I didn't and because I did have the ability via Discord and Facebook and other means I was able to connect with people online and so uh I think it's sort of the creativity comes out of um a uh a smaller um see what is it there's something like uh I don't know the exact word but it's something like having having the confines of something creates creativity or something like that I can't remember the exact quote but but basically not having unlimited resources usually you become creative I guess out of that and so we kind of had to um so people were online and um and and and so I say one of the main things from the that we learned from that is that that's where people are throughout the week so with the physical you're really you're creating a space um like if even something like Starbucks or whatever you're going to have to try to get people to that place if they don't know it exists then they can't get to it if they don't have a physical location like if it's within 30 you know I wouldn't drive 30 miles for a Starbucks you know um so there there's a there's a gap where like and I also don't want to I don't want to assume you know I like Angela you're giving stats that that are from America uh Alina if I remember right is there where where are you from I'm from Washington state so US okay so you're from U.S um but like that there I know there's lots of people in VR church that um are from all over the world and the same is true for Love Plan and Angela you know with your ministry I don't know how that works too but I mean we have people in our in our team that are not from the US I mean like it's a decent majority of them um people that have were from America that ended up moving to Korea you know people that live now in China um people that are from from the UK so yeah I mean there's a pretty pretty actually widespread uh group and so the the online to versus physical mostly is just space that I can connect with people from all around the world um and you know I can read versus like go into all nations a lot more more literally than maybe somebody that just says well we're looking at this state you know we're looking at this city um and and we're really more looking at like how do we what what does it look like for us to have multiple languages um you know like I mean the it kind of comes off when it when it turns into online because you just you can hit you can hit people from everywhere and um also your your time restraints are just so different you know I'm not looking at Sunday uh like that's just another day when you have people that are willing to be on at all points in time mostly because if I was to say you know even somebody that lives 30 minutes away if I want to go meet that person there's still a lot that goes into us meeting versus if there's a group of people online and you just hop on and say hey who's around right now um I mean that that's just so quick that uh it it's a lot of the same reasons that we we use Facebook like I have a minute right now uh and so I can I can hop in and that's just really it's difficult like people's have said Sunday is a hard time uh to meet but I think it's also um just that you have more time more opportunities to catch people throughout the week and and that does again you know you read stuff like Acts that they're meeting daily you read that more literally when you're doing online um versus like a church might say well you know I mean it has a different context and whatever and and for us it is a different context it's just yeah I was just gonna say there's so much in there that I wanted to say agree and go wow yes um but one of those things was about that uh ease of meeting and the fact that it's throughout the week it's not just one hour on Sunday next week but there's this fluid um and what I love is even just yesterday uh Pastor Loco was have something to share and he lives in the Netherlands and just that quickly he's like oh do you have a moment this is a whole new project I'm working on and instantly boom I put on my thing two minutes later you're walking through this incredible world um and it's just that easy nothing you know a hobby like this is global yeah it was it was interesting for me as Stadia is doing these digital only church plant cohorts I I didn't anticipate like having the global connection that we've had like and when we weren't even really broadcasting or promoting this stuff even it was really internal maybe a couple web pages and we suddenly started getting Google hits from um and actually having conversations with planters in countries like South Africa uh Kenya uh Indonesia uh Philippines like I'm literally like having a very hard time trying to get face to face with somebody literally on the other side of the planet because it's the meeting can only happen at 8 or 9 a.m or he's way late or I'm way early I was having a conversation with with the guy in South Africa I don't know maybe like six or seven o'clock it was after it was at the end of my time in Eastern and I'm having a conversation and literally in the middle of this I'm like what time is it right now where you are and he's like oh it's 1 a.m I'm like why are we talking right now at 1 a.m there's got to be a better time for you he's like oh I'm up anyway it's okay not a big deal now we all need to sleep and I'm not advocating for that um although I do do it all the time but we suddenly are seeing how we are able to get reach with an idea but even in context of this reach spreading which I think is really the heart of a digital church it's not just this reach of a one-way communication but it's this idea of an engagement building relationships in this two-way conversation so um I would love this tell me some ministry stories I I want to dig in here a little bit like tell me um tell me the greatest experience the greatest story tell me one of the wins of your churches digitally I'm a story guy stories go a far away in kind of showing the ministry that's happening in digital only so so tell me a story of what's happening at Charles respected churches online well I know what they're all thinking they're all thinking where which one do I start with right that's what I was thinking like every day is amazing like that as far as storytelling and that is the biggest difference that I see in traditional church church I say traditional church with four walls and digital ministry is it is building daily relationships and our local churches which I'm an era leader for our district here and our pastors their biggest question is how do I get people into church well that's even harder right now and then the second is how do I get them connected to God and other people well in the digital space you have that opportunity from this to go big to small pretty quick just by engaging people in a relationship so uh just yesterday I was selling a couch on a Facebook group and the woman drove from about an hour and 45 minutes away and the first thing she said to me was we have common people on Facebook as friends and I was like really who's that well as they turned out she had gone to um like grade school a Christian grade school and then she'd been in a church that was um she categorized it as cultic like as a cult I don't

Know if it was or was not, but and then she could not express her sexuality because she's gay, and so she was basically shunned from the church and her family. And she said, "Now I still love Jesus, I'm still interested in faith, but I have nowhere to go. Like I have nowhere to go." And so I got to have a conversation with her about, "Well, I totally understand where you're at. That's why I started doing this thing three years ago, so I could connect her online." Whereas if I had an in-person space, I couldn't necessarily invite her. I mean, I could invite her, but she's not going to come, you know, drive two hours or almost two hours to come on a Sunday necessarily. So, and that's just one story of how easily you can connect with people and invite them in.

You're way too excited. Tell me. Okay, give me, give me two, give me three.

Um, there's a good dear friend of mine now for about seven months. Um, I, I found her. I hadn't seen her around the church or, and then one time I was looking in our prayer channel in Discord, and she was asking for prayer because she was in a horrible accident. She was in the hospital. She wasn't even sure she was gonna walk again. She was alone. She didn't have anybody with her. Um, and to boot, she couldn't speak. Um, because she couldn't sleep. That was not within her capabilities. And she's, um, asked for prayer, and I, of course, prayed for her. Um, I reached out to her. Um, I sent her. I didn't even know her. I just like, just saw this in the birthday, and I said flowers and a little something. Um, and we had just become such good friends, and she's like almost everywhere because we have these, you know, life groups and hangouts and services and Bible studies. And she's like almost everywhere. Um, she's home now. She's not like, she's taking like three or four steps. She's not so walking, walking, but um, just seeing this difference, this her that I, this quiet like hurt little bird, almost lonely hurt little bird, watching her grow in Christ and watching her grow, and it's just been beautiful. And just the fact that this can be done, um, and this never would have been done, and had it not been online, like how is she gonna welcome a physical church door from our hospital bed? Um, and now she's like super encouraging of everybody else. It's infectious, you know? That the, the my favorite thing is, um, filling the Lord, feeling so much love that overflows, that it spills out without you even trying. And I watch this every day. Everybody filling each other with so much love that it just pours out. And um, watching like, it's, it's good that we're growing, but it's also sad that we're growing because like I can't connect like I'd like to with this many people. There's not enough time in the day. Um, but it sure is beautiful watching them, um, care for one another, encourage each other, and real, real um relationships with Christ and real, real relationships with each other. Um, and there's like so many incredible. Oh, okay, last one. And then, oh, so a couple weeks ago, um, after a VR chat service, um, this gentleman asked for prayer. He asked for prayer because he, um, had no access. He said he was able somehow to ask his computer, but normally he wouldn't. Um, and that where he lives in the world, um, he can't, Christ can't do that. And he says, "This has been my first connection, my first ability to even be in any sort of fellowship in so long." And I did cry. He said, "And I don't know how long it's going to be until I can do this again." And just tears like that, and it happened a lot. And I got to stop talking now.

Well, it's powerful because you start to, you see an opportunity of where digital is starting to reach a type of person that that really you weren't possibly reaching within the physical building. Like the stories, or even a leader yourself with your with your health conditions, you weren't, you're not able to be in the physical space. And so, you know, we're talking about, you know, is, is that, is the digital only model of church for everyone? And I don't know, 2020, where we are now, I don't know that I would say the entire world is going to fit into a digital only church. But I think we have an opportunity to reach somebody in ways that the physical building can't. And I also would say that trends are leaning more that way, almost in this COVID season. Every day, every week, every month seems to be going more and more as it's just getting more and more difficult for physical buildings to really be utilized again. And even like seeing how, you know, for example, Jade here has been diving in and utilizing these digital tools to disciple, to grow, to challenge people, to create other disciples, some of this evangelism to disciple making movement that that he's been able to create, man, like it's exciting. So Jade, I mean, I want to hear some of these stories. Like what's happening in in your world through through Love Clan?

Sure. Um, yeah, no, we just started. So I, I just started streaming, um, doing like pretty regularly. Uh, I hadn't, I a bunch of stuff happened. My main streaming platform ended. Um, Mixer used to be a thing, and now it's not. So now I switched over to Twitch, which is the primary. That's what most gamers use when they're live streaming. Um, if you're a church planner, you probably I don't know, maybe you've never even heard of Twitch. It's like, what it's, uh, yeah. Um, that doesn't sound like Life Church, you know? I thought Life Church was never one, you know? Um, but yeah, so go ahead and say it. But where are you on Twitch? Let's, let's go ahead and call it. I'll link to it in the show. Okay, uh, it's J Live. That's just my, I'm just doing like just me. I'm just playing games. And um, I have my story in the description. Um, and we try to connect with people. And uh, so that's just, I'm trying to think of like current things, whatever is the, you know, right, right in front of us. Um, and so that's for me. I, I quit my job at the church that I was working at, uh, so I could give Love Clan a little bit more of my time. And I've been doing freelance as like a way to, uh, supplement that. So that's kind of my what I'm doing now. And um, yeah, it's so my thought where I want to kind of think it through is, um, I don't, there's a a side of this where it's a church planner could look at this and go, "Yeah, it really makes sense, um, that they would reach people that otherwise couldn't be reached, you know, or otherwise couldn't be, uh, go, wouldn't go to a normal church or whatever." Um, but I think that can seem very like dismissive. Like, "It's really good that they're reaching those people because somebody should, and so I'm going to keep doing my physical thing." Um, and so I know you've talked to Jeff a lot about like Fidget and like the, you know, an idea of like having a digital and a physical. And um, so what I've kind of seen in some of my thoughts is like, "Okay, well, what are ways that during the week you can talk to people that maybe they, maybe they would go to your church, maybe they wouldn't, but it's just your, what are you doing during the week?" Um, and so I've seen a decent number of pastors that have started doing this, even where they're like, "I was already playing, you know, Fortnite with my kids. I might as well stream it, you know, and it's just this other opportunity to talk to people, you know, during the week. You get to hear the stuff that other people are dealing with. Um, you're really rubbing shoulders with people more often. Um, you know, when I think of of a story just from the the gaming thing, I was in a game, and um, I did something nice. There's like some, you know, I won't get into why it was nice, uh, because it gets very gamey, but I basically, you know, had a choice to make, and I decided to let this other person take the win essentially. So, uh, and and they were like, they were not on their mic before that, but then afterwards they were like, "Hey, uh, you got to meet my brother. He loves when people are nice in games." And it just was like weird. Like, "What, I got to meet your brother?" But he was just like, "No one's ever nice in this game. You guys, my brother's got, he's gonna love you. You gotta, you gotta meet." So the name I was like, "Oh, okay, well, you know, hey, here's my, you know, information. I'm actually live streaming, and like, here's my Discord." And he joined in there, you know? There's like there's a way to connect with people. Um, and I've talked about this on other stuff, but the idea for us is kind of step cuts where we're saying like, "What's what's the next step?" And we want to try to get people moving down this pathway. And so, um, for for me, a lot of this is, "How do I, like, if I if I was to walk into Walmart, it's really difficult for me to talk to somebody and have another conversation with that person?" And so in gaming, it's the same thing. I mean, it is difficult, but I have the opportunity to talk to somebody, and that's the first step. I don't usually get in Walmart. Um, especially now, but even before now, it's still, still is weird if you don't think it's weird for you to talk to people in Walmart, you're probably weird, and I love that about you, but you are weird. So, uh, that's that. For for me, that's like, "Okay, I have an opportunity to talk to somebody in gaming." Um, and and so our, um, like, I was live streaming, and I was playing a game. Somebody joined, uh, and said, "Hey, uh, so we, so we are, we do our things kind of differently. For us, we have a small group or whatever, like a group of people that we that discuss, and we play video games while we're going through the Bible. So we'll take a chapter of the Bible, and we'll go through it while we're playing video games." Um, and since people have something in front of them to do that they would have already actively done, the time frame doesn't really matter as much. It's not like, "Yeah, we really got to be home soon," you know? It's like, "Well, I'm already home, and I'm eating food right now while I'm playing games, so we can go ahead and talk about this." And so it leads the discussion. So, um, those have usually, it takes about four hours for us to go through a chapter, um, because we're like, "Well, this is a really interesting thing. I thought about, let's talk about it." And we're willing to like really dive into those things. So, um, and we're live streaming it while we do that. So people have joined the chat that have asked questions that, you know, they were like, "Hey, one person might that comes to mind, one person said, 'Hey, um, it's really cool you're talking about this Jesus stuff, but uh, I'm still really struggling with the whole hell and damnation stuff. So could you, you know, what do you think about that?'" And um, you know, that from that experience, I I've kind of started saying that church planners and and pastors sometimes answer questions people aren't asking. Um, where it's like, "Let's let's read through this verse, and like, oh, this is a really easy softball thing that my, you know, non-Christian friends will like," and you know, it it's sort of like, "That's not even the question that they're necessarily asking." In that, when we're in our mind, we've already made decisions on things. And when I'm streaming, and I know that I have atheist friends that are watching, um, one of my mods is an atheist, and he's, but we have awesome conversations back and forth because he like grew up in the church, and he got kind of, you know, burned, you know, by it. And and so we have really good conversations where he's like, "Yeah, you know, I guess I just hadn't thought about this way, or it's really cool to hear people talking about it this way that's not how I was used to it, you know?" Um, and so I'm, I will read a verse, and I'll say, I'll, I'll hear it, and I'll hear it like I'm talking to him because I am. I mean, virtually, I'm I'm talking to him. He's in the chat. And I'll realize, "Oh, man, let you know, this verse really doesn't make sense if I don't explain this word. Like, the, this holiness is just a Christian word. Like, it doesn't actually mean a whole lot to somebody else." So, um, other than in video games, it's like an ability, you know, where you cast light on people, and it like makes them radiant or something.

So it's like how do you? I think a lot of the stories come from that, just like the opportunity to speak into people's lives who otherwise might have gone to a church, but you know, like you said, Elena, where it's a very easy off-ramp. And I've said multiple times that's the best and worst thing about online is that it's such an easy on-ramp for people, but it's also just as easy of an off-ramp. And I have people that I mean I've prayed for that have said that they are contemplating suicide, and I don't know where they went. I mean they've just disappeared, and that's horrifying to me. It keeps me up at night. But at the same time, like I have had conversations with people who, never—it's not like you said, um, trolls. You know, we've had plenty. Some of our strongest members are people that came purposefully to derail conversations and so on, and then they stay because they're like, well, I mean, I don't know, just like something's a little different. And then they, you know, so we've kind of said it's like a church for trolls. That's definitely a thing.

Yeah, I don't know. I have stories. I think I've already shared another podcast that I don't really want to share again just because they're long. But those are the conversations that do happen. I mean, it really does. A lot of what you hit on with all that really comes down to relationships. A relationship with a troll is not "shut up, go away." It's an opportunity to engage at a new level and take some of that passion that was maybe initially set towards, you know, embarrassing you, revert it, and actually change it into a passion to grow and to change because there's something different about who we are and how we respond to them.

Even going back to the earlier thing of through online ministry, I tell you, like I've learned this lesson early on: if you really want to engage with people online, it's better to ask questions than make statements. The more that you can get other people talking, the more likely that you are to be able to speak into their life. If you are actually just speaking at them one way, that's not engaging. That's actually almost online and a posture of condescending where you're speaking down to them instead of allowing them to engage and speak into the conversation.

Yeah, and not that it's bad because it's biblical, but that is what a church service is, you know? It's like, come watch me speak, you know? They might—there's an interactive portion there, definitely is with worship. There's time afterwards that you can ask questions, you can meet, and so on. But if there's somebody that's sitting down and they immediately have something on their mind that's like, "Well, I don't really care what you say because I don't like hell"—that's something that we should address right away. And they're willing to have that conversation, then let's have it.

And I just, I don't know how we get to that stage. Usually people have one thing that they don't—they don't need two things to keep them from going to church. One's enough, you know? And so for me, it's like kind of being open is like a dartboard of like, "Hey, how's it going, guys? I'm a Christian and I play video games. Let's talk." And they're not afraid to throw it out, you know? Like, "Well, I mean, what could it hurt? You know, I'm gonna really stump him with this one. Like, hell sucks, doesn't it?" You know, it's like, "Yeah, I mean, I think I've thought about that before. Like, it kind of does. Let's talk about like why it's necessary, you know?"

And that is something that I think a lot of people, when they think of how do I get people to church, a lot of it is like, "Well, if they could only hear what I had to say, then that would really change their mind." And usually it's like people need to be heard before they can move on. And they can't be heard if they're just sitting in the chairs. So instead we get an opportunity to be like, "I hear you. I understand what you're saying, and you're not wrong. It's just let me say where I'm coming from because I have a different perspective than you, even though I've thought through the same things that you're thinking through and I've dealt with them. Like, I've had to pray through a lot of these same problems."

And so I think that's it. It's just different. It's different, but it's in a good way where we're having more open discussion, and that's what small group really should be—is an open discussion point for people. But it's rare, I think, that people are going to come to your small group before they come to your church. And how will they even know it? Like, our church is even promoting their small groups before they're promoting their church? If I'm doing a Facebook ad, it's not so I can promote my small group. And for obvious reasons, lots of different reasons. So it's looking at it in a different way.

To be honest, that's one of the lessons that I've learned through doing online ministry in recent years. People—and I've heard it, I've asked so many online pastors, these guys who are really doing ministries in the space, you know, Jade—I know I've had this conversation with you. People will connect to community oftentimes online before they connect to Christ. And actually, I think that's almost a precursor to the physical world as well.

I think coming out of this COVID season—I don't want to be like the downer guy, but I think that's where as a church I think we need to go. Is that we need to be more likely to utilize our people to engage in community towards it. That's where I think the idea of a digital-only expression that really is engaging people relationally in community and through those relationships talking about Christ—that, like, from a one-on-one perspective or one-to-a-few perspective, as opposed to, you know, a man standing on a pole on a stage behind a pulpit exuding a spiritual gift for hundreds or thousands to see—those, I mean, if we're really honest with ourselves, that model was struggling pre-COVID. Now COVID's happening, and we long—there's a small piece of us that wants to get back to that. But as a church, there's more to what makes up a church attraction than that one hour on Sunday.

And what I love is that all of you in context of your digital churches are working towards this idea of creating the community component really before we even start diving into this idea of actually doing a church service. The church service almost is secondary, a little bit, to what an actual church digital-only expression of church is, you know? All of you are shaking your heads yes, and someone listening to the podcast or watching this on YouTube's head just exploded because like, you don't say that in physical buildings. But in digital environments, we see that time and time again.

Let me ask you, you know, Angela, Elena—what other lessons, observations? Like, what are you learning, maybe about ministry by doing it digitally that maybe is different than what we're seeing in the physical space? Are there any other things that kind of jump out at you guys?

I think what Jay was saying really is, from like a later leadership perspective, is that in the traditional wall church we have a top-down, and in digital space, people that are called digital ministry or digital evangelist or whatever you want to call yourself, they're looking at it from the perspective of bottom-up and creating liminal spaces that are transformational, that are creating holding environments where people could come and be safe and really seen. And we learned this from our African friends. Like, they have a total relational way of leadership where the most important thing is to be seen and then work together towards a goal.

So like, I think intuitively those that are called to digital ministry are seeing this kind of reverse followership. As far as we as leaders are learning with and from people that are following, and so that's incredibly important to me. It's, um, some people aren't going to like that structure, but that is the way of Jesus being, you know, that servant leader.

The other thing that I wanted to add to the conversation was, as far as a digital church and what would be valuable to see and is not seen unless you do it, is that there's so many people within your church—like, sometimes whether it's a small army or a large army of people like Elena who can't serve—who have found themselves in a place, and that I would say that my team was built on that. People that love Jesus that could no longer serve because of a physical reason. And I write that—that was one of the stories I was going to share from my book that I wrote at COVID. And I can share that later, but it was of a team leader. She's in charge of our prayer room on Facebook, and her name is Anastina. And she just wrote this beautiful blog, and so I said, "Can I share it in my book?" Because this is just such a description of what leaders can see. We have what, nine or ten percent of the people in the church actually volunteering, and you have a whole bunch of people in your church right now that are online many, many hours that need a purpose. And where God gave them a purpose, and they have a story to tell. So that's my encouragement. And I have lots of stories of that.

As far as doing both in person and digital, that's beautiful. Just that the purpose—as someone who is that person—and not just a random purpose, but such an amazing and beautiful and couldn't be more important purpose. And absolutely, through digital ministry, we are able to share that. And so many people—I can have a list, I don't have permission so I can't name names anyway, but a super long list of people that otherwise could never have served in other circumstances are able to serve.

And the other thing that I think is so cool, and I don't know any percentages in my mind—I pretend to, but I don't—but at least in my experience, and then from listening to all of you, it sounds like it's similar for you as well, where the physical church, yes, there are groups that you know do a Bible study or this or that, but a vast majority it's a Sunday service and then next Sunday. But I feel that this online digital ministry, because of the ease of just you're just there like so easily, I think that we have a lot higher percentage—at least in my experience—of people who are engaging throughout the week, and not just someday, and sometimes like four or five days a week. There's, you know, one in twenty people that you just see or five days a week. And it's, yeah, I think that there's that community is, to me, stronger. And people go, "You can't have real relationships online." Like, whoa, it feels like we have deeper, more relationships from my experience.

Yeah, I know a lot of pastors will have conversations with me. Their relationships online don't abandon gathering together, you know? That's the challenge out of Hebrews. And, you know, the biblical model of church cannot be done in digital space. And you know, I've actually, and Jade's helped me with some of those conversations. We've spent a lot of time, hours, digging into, okay, what is the biblical foundation of a church? Like, what does the Bible call the church to be? And can you do that digitally? Yeah, yeah, okay. So maybe the corporate worship and the teaching in the physical environment—when you do that digitally, it doesn't actually work. But oftentimes, I think even the current model of physical church...

Is is just it, it's a model, you know? Mega church, giga church, those are really popular in Korea. Micro location, you know, under a mud hut or under a palm tree, like three or four people gathering, that's bringing revival in India. To say that one model is better than another is, I don't, I don't have that ability like that. That's not my call. It's God's. You know, for us for Stadia and knowing y'all in your heart, it's hey, let's go back to the Bible. Let's see what the Bible calls us to do and let's figure out how to make that happen. And as we look at Acts 2, we see a lot of the relational components come out in that where we're engaging with people's lives through prayer, where we're giving back into the community and helping with ways with that. There's teaching, there's worship, there's all of these things. There's being Spirit led and being moved through that. But and this is the standard that we are holding ourselves to even in the digital only expression. Let's figure out how to do these things so that we can utilize this platform to maybe engage with people in a way that's not being done in our physical environments. And I just want to see, you know, I want hats off to all you guys, all three of you, the two ladies excuse me and Jake, who are doing a great work here experimenting, digging in, asking questions, trying things. Well, you know, the rest of the world's like, you're crazy. You want to do a church at virtual reality? That's not real. You're abandoning gathering together. You know, I literally had a pastor tell me I was sinning because he had such a theological concern with even doing this digital only expression. And you know, he's currently broadcasting his church services online. Thank you, COVID. So I don't, I don't know really how much of it's really a theological concern versus an opinion, especially in the COVID season. But there's a lot of good that's being done in these environments and there's lots of stories of lives that are being changed and disciples that are being trained and released into disciple making environments out of doing the work that you guys are doing to help the churches, to help become the church that you all are. So thank you very much for doing this.

Hey, we're gonna wrap here a little bit, but let me ask this question and we'll see where this goes. The best piece of advice that you can give, because Stadia we're doing digital only expressions of church, I've got planters that want to be the next VR church that are excited to dive into video gaming and everything that's involved there. And so I want you to give me one single piece of advice that the digital only planters that are listening, that they can hear, that they can process, that they can own. Jay, why don't you go first?

I would say best piece of advice for somebody that's considering would be to honestly take a large portion of time and pray about it and to have other people praying for you because our, like I said, it wasn't by it wasn't on purpose. It wasn't like I said, oh, we're going to start a digital church. We, I just was open to anything and said, God, anything, anywhere you want. And we had a group, my small group, that prayed for six months for me to have God say something for me to do. And the plan was not for a digital church. It wasn't for a church for gamers. I wish I could say I was smart enough to plan for COVID. It was 100 percent just prayed, anything, anywhere in the world. And it, I remember where I was, that I felt like God, as clearly as I've ever heard him speak, said, what about a game church? You know, I've shared that before, but that's essentially what all of this came from was every day waking up and saying, okay, God, like today, what does it look like to move forward? And whatever that is, you know, because I'm not smart enough to know it. I can put my skills, I believe that, you know, Ephesians 2:10, that we're his workmanship created in Christ Jesus for good works that he prepared in advance that we might do. So I believe he prepared me in advance to do this good work. But that's still something he prepares, you know? And so if God has prepared for you to do a digital church, he'll already have given you skills and talents that have led you in this direction. Like, thank you for thinking that way, but pray. Like, just pray and see what God will do because at the end of the day, it's still Jesus' church. Like, he is going to fund your church. He's going to give you the skills to do this church. And so I mean, I'd love to show you like how we're doing it, but I think ultimately if God's not in it, then that's really going to be your first, you know, that'll be the biggest downfall. And so I, you know, if I really had to give one, it sounds like a cop-out, but just pray about it. Like, you really need to.

Yeah, don't cop out. Elena, what piece of advice would you have?

It would be if you're doing a digital only church, don't try and copy the physical church. Use your assets, what do you have in this environment that you don't have there that can be used? So don't try and duplicate it. Be nimble and use what you have instead of struggling to try something else. Be open to the Lord because people show you what it is like, even if it takes time. Like you said, it'll just be like a process, but kind of almost like you're on a ride.

So nimble. I cannot tell you how many churches, even with church online, it's not even digital only churches, but church online, how many churches are struggling with that? This idea that we're just going to copy what we're doing in the physical space digitally. And why is that not working? That should work. It worked physically. Why doesn't it work digitally? And it rarely, if ever, does. So that's a great piece of advice there. Angela, as we're landing the plane here, what piece of advice can you give to a potential digital only church planter?

Listen to these wise people for sure. They know what they're talking about. I would say have conversations with people that have been doing digital ministry. So you in this video you see digital ministry expressed in different ways, but the bottom line difference between these ministries and a traditional church is we're not building a personal platform with our name on it. And we are building a space for people to come and to learn about Jesus every day. And the more, and that's hard work. And so most people when they get into this and they're actually doing the work of discipleship, which is super messy because it involves people just like me with a bunch of stuff, then you know, you want to quit. So you do need to pray and you do need to realize that this looks nothing like what you think it does until you're doing it. I would say become an apprentice at one of our churches, and that is a great way to see if you know, if it's really for you and God will lead you to the right place out of that because you're being obedient and you're called. And then read what people are writing about online church, digital church. I wrote a book that's tiny, but at the beginning of COVID because there were so many people, so many of our pastors that were calling me and saying, how do I do this? And I wanted them to know it's different. It's not just doing what you do in person online. There's like a whole different way of doing this and being successful and making Jesus the center of social media. And then of course, know that the Holy Spirit works. He's working in your life so that you can share the gospel, but he's also working in the person's life on the other side. And so he's calling them to come. And so you never have to worry about having enough people to disciple and to live. David's talking about the prayer that if it's funds you need, you know, you'll supply that. Like you said, it's the other side as well. The people, he will send them. You need help? People will step up. It's beautiful to see, and I watch it every day. And so that's it. That's awesome.

Hey, ladies and gentlemen, this has been awesome. I've loved this time. Angela, if somebody wanted to pick up your book, where do they do that?

Oh, on Amazon. It's "Backwards Online Jesus." See, it's really it. It's like a overnight read. It's so small it doesn't even have a spine. It doesn't even have writing on the spine, but it's a, you know, overnight read. It's about our story but also how to build community, disciple, and care online. So that's on Amazon, Kindle. You can go to my website. Yeah, it's all over.

Thank you. Well, yeah, no problem. We'll throw links in the show notes to that. And so it is a good read. I read it whenever I had you on the last part. It was a couple of weeks ago. When I, time flies, I have no idea. I don't even know what day it is today. But we'll definitely check out that book, dive into it. Stadia is as well. Stadia is doing some digital only cohorts. And so as you're praying through this, as Jay recommended, if you are interested in dialoguing and digging deeper into what this idea of a digital only expression of church would be and how maybe it fits within your model, you know, feel free to dig in, have some conversations with us. Check out stadiachurchplanning.org/digital, D-I-G-I-T-A-L, or hit me up directly through social media. My contact info's in the show notes as well. We'd love to dialogue with you towards us if you're interested in it. It's literally my job to help replicate Jay's, Elena's, and Angela's, and others that are out there that are doing this work for the kingdom in digital space. So if you're thinking that way or have questions or want to dialogue, feel free to reach out and let's have that conversation. But for each of you, like I said earlier, thanks for experimenting, thanks for jumping in this season in doing this, you know, maybe over the past three years, plus or minus, where there wasn't a lot of support, where there wasn't a lot of look for it, where people kind of thought that you were crazy in the midst of it. And even now in the midst of COVID, some people probably still do think you're crazy. But there's the proof in the pudding, or the proof's in the fruit, or something awkward that I should say there. But the proof is really in these stories that you're telling of how you're seeing the life change, you're seeing people engage, you're seeing people start to ask questions that they weren't asking before. And so, you know, thankful so much for y'all's contributions into the kingdom digitally. And on top of that, I'll be continuing to be praying that God moves through VR Church, through Love Plan, through Pursuit Church Life, as well as the other churches that are doing his job physically, his kingdom physically as well as digitally. So thank you for being here, for Jay, for Elena, for Angela. This is Jeff with the Church Digital. Thank you all for being here, and we'll see you next time here on the podcast. You have a good day.