EP222: Seth Muse & Ministering to Rude People, Digitally

Well, I think first you have to give up the right to be right. And in any good relationship, there's going to be dynamics and roles, and you know, things like we're the teacher, you're the student. You know, there's that kind of relationship. There's father-son, mother-daughter, whatever all that brother-sister types of relationships you can have. And with the church online, I think the only real way you can convey love and care is by sharing stories of love and care.

Welcome to the Church Digital podcast. Through this podcast, we'll talk about the technological innovations within the church, but more than tech itself, we'll address deeper questions. Is disciple-making possible digitally? How should we approach the digital mission field? Can a biblically grounded church operate in digital space? And where does the metaverse fit into all this? Whether you're a big or small church, an established church or a startup church plant, the Church Digital's goal is to help churches like yours learn to be a multiplying church digitally and physically. Our heart is that churches like yours would discover a newfound focus on disciple-making that will revolutionize your church.

And now here's your host, Jeff Reed.

Hey, welcome to the Church Digital podcast. I'm excited about this conversation. I say that every week, but I really like this. This is going to be a fun topic and a fun guest we've got coming up. Before we get there, hey, right off the bat, if you're not part of FAM Digital Church Networks online community family, we want to invite you to go ahead and do that. Create a free account, get connected with hundreds of digital pastors, digital planters, digital innovators for the church. Some really interesting conversations, some really interesting trainings and roundtables happening right now. So get that coaching, get that community, and get that care over at fam.digitalchurch.network. You can find that at fam.digitalchurch.network.

So how was that for a commercial? We're going to call that done. I think that was the quickest I've ever done that. Fam.digitalchurch.network. Okay, so let's get into this conversation. I almost feel like that was like the disclaimer. You got to get that out there, and now you can actually get on with the show.

And so it's funny. Anytime anybody that does any work in digital ministry knows what it's like to bump up against, oh, let's just call it what it is. We're not going to run away from this. We bump up against rude people. We get slammed unexpectedly. We get criticized unexpectedly. You get somebody going off on a tirade about something who's trying to prove a point. And at the heart of this, we as digital ministers and digital pastors and people who, I don't know, exist in this world called the internet, we've got to figure out how to love the people that are sometimes the unlovable.

And so for this conversation, I want to go ahead and bring in someone who I don't necessarily consider unlovable, but we've got Seth Muse coming into the conversation here. Hey, Seth, how you doing, man?

Hey, man, thanks for having me on again.

Okay, so I like having podcasts and having conversations with Seth, and so because it's just the two of us, I don't know, it's because I lived in Dallas for a while and he's in Dallas, but I just feel relaxed. I feel comical. I feel like I'm having fun. I feel like I can say things that, you know, maybe I wouldn't necessarily say publicly because I think Seth kind of brings that out in me. And as a matter of fact, you know, Seth, if you were to go back through some of our past conversations, like I'm even thinking about "Baby Yoda Must Die," going back from like the podcast we did together. What was that podcast we did together?

Uh, Pastor Nerds. Nerd Pastor Chat. It was the Nerd Pastor podcast that I co-host with my friend Justin. And yeah, you were, I think we both have the very surly nature of, you know, just kind of a "well, I'm just going to say this thing, we're all going to deal with it afterwards" kind of attitude. And that's something that we share and we enjoy about each other, I think, which is really interesting because now we've got two surly dudes who are talking about rude people on the internet. It's not everybody sure where this is going to go. It's going to be fun, right?

So let me ask you from somebody who sat through a podcast where I was going off on how Baby Yoda must die, which by the way, if you've watched the new Obi-Wan and have experienced the little child—I'm not going to do any spoilers—running around, it's episode part three literally has happened. It's so much better than freaking Baby Yoda. Like, this is what it is. We Baby Yoda was like the prequel. It was the episode 0.5 for what this should have been. So yeah, very good. They had to walk before they run, or force jump. They had to figure out the formula. And yes, Obi-Wan is, I love it. I think it's peak Star Wars. I'm excited. I hear that green light is season two now because of the fan outpouring of reception for it, which is really nice.

So it's good. Yeah, we have that in common for sure. We love the nerd world.

Yeah, I don't know that we'll ever see a Star Wars movie again, or we will. You think?

I just don't know that we'll see another good one, but we'll see. We're going to see a bunch of them. There's money to be made, man.

This is quickly going to become a Star Wars podcast. I really don't want it to.

Well, who's the name of the producer? I literally just blanked on the name of the producer. Who's the name of the producer? Taika Waititi is going to do the one who did Thor Ragnarok, and he's doing the—but who's the overall producer?

Oh, Kathleen Kennedy's overall. She produced the first Jurassic Park really? I was blown away. I was watching Jurassic Park with my son. He's eleven and kind of freaked out a little bit, which was awesome and cool at the same time, a little scary. But in the credits, Kathleen Kennedy, producer. I was like, oh, I didn't know she went that far back.

Yeah, I guess so. I didn't either. Cool.

Anyway, hey, let's get into rude people. Going to transfer from Kathleen Kennedy to rude people. Kathleen Kennedy actually probably deals with a lot of rude people that have opinions centered around Star Wars. So I mean, look, the heart of this is we on the internet. Just because of the anonymity, because of the separation, people feel like they can say whatever they want to say with no recourse or consequences. And as a result, I don't know, I can get away with saying things like "Baby Yoda must die," even though I don't know that I really hate the little green glob of whatever it is. But the heart of it is that people feel like they can. And what's interesting is in digital ministry spaces, I mean, that oftentimes feels like it's pushing away from what we're trying to accomplish. But even the trolls need Jesus. And so, you know, Seth, let me just even ask you up front here. We can go all sorts of places in this conversation, but why are people so rude on the internet?

I think you hit a bunch of it there. And it's funny we started talking about Star Wars because that fandom is a case study in toxic internet trolls and how a fandom can really get negative and go bad and how the internet can be an unhappy place for people who love that world, which I do. And so you know, you get a lot of gatekeeping and things. So you transfer that over to the church and see how that works.

I think there's a lot of things to it. I think there's a lot of elements why people feel rude. You said anonymity, that's one for sure. You know, people feel like they can say things because there's no recourse, there's no face to face. They're a little bit bolder, you know, with what they're willing to do on the internet, and that's unfortunate for a lot of things. And then now we're starting to see some accountability for that, you know, in certain places, which is nice.

Honestly, I think it's so bad now. I think we're just mentally and emotionally exhausted over the last several years. We're all just really tired of living through unprecedented events, you know? We're tired of one after the other. We're tired of having to work really hard to figure out what the truth about things is. You know, and we didn't have to do that before, maybe we should have, but we really didn't have to work this hard just to find out what happened.

And it feels like, I'll tell you this as an ex-youth pastor, it feels a lot like we're stuck on the third night of youth camp. Third night of youth camp, you haven't slept. You're so tired your defenses are down. You have no energy to put up any kind of emotional walls or have any patience whatsoever. And you either have breakdowns or breakthroughs. That's what we say. Third night of youth camp is breakdown or breakthrough. People are going to finally allow the Holy Spirit to work in their life, or they're going to get in a fight. And one of those things is going to happen with almost every person because we're just so exhausted from being out in the sun.

I grew up in youth camp when you couldn't, they'd kick you out of the house, you know, just like your parents would. They'd kick you out of the dorm. You couldn't go back to the air conditioning, and you had six hours of free time in the hottest part of the day in Oklahoma, you know? It was just like somebody's going to end up in the hospital, you know? It's crazy.

And so I feel like we're there, and everyone is just so on edge because of world events. And online negativity is just thrown in your face. It's hard. It's hard to feel anything else. Somebody else said this too. It's like if that's what you're seeing, it's because that's what you're wanting to see. You know, the algorithm exists to show you what you really want to see. And so when you're seeing a lot of negativity, there's some introspection to do here of like, what's going on with me? If I feel bad, why am I? They call it doom scrolling. You're actually doom scrolling. You're looking for the negative in your feed because for some reason you actually kind of like it. And that's a mental issue, I think, for us to all, you know, kind of look at ourselves and go, is that me?

But honestly, I think it's just we're just tired, and people's patience is over. And there are some big things going on in the world. People feel passionate about it. So you mix all that in with the anonymity of like no fear of consequence, and you've got a pretty big problem on your hands, you know?

I interviewed digital media church. I've been interviewed by recently a lot of different press people. And this one reporter was texting me. Ultimately, he wanted to get like a ninety-second story on metaverse church. And he's literally texting me to give me sound bites and quotes for his story. And you know, I didn't realize it was ninety seconds. I was so I'm telling him, you know, this massive story, and he's like, dude, I literally want like ninety seconds total time. And I made the comment. I was like, well, man, I don't know what you can tell the entire story in ninety seconds. And he's like, well, Jeff, as a reporter, I've already acknowledged that there's no way that I can tell truth in ninety seconds. That's not my job. My job's to inform, not to tell the truth.

And I was like, that's, and I'm not going to out the organization like that. That's not what I'm doing. But I mean, that's this world that we live in, that even the people that are supposed to be reporting the truth are saying, hey, I can't. We can't do this in this intensive time constraint environment that we're in. And so we're just trying to do the best that we can.

with it and I think media should take some responsibility for that for sure. I mean, the rhetoric that's out there, we've seen, you know, politicians get up front and the way they talk to each other has changed and it's really leading the charge and like, you know, giving the green light for people.

Leadership matters, you know, and who you follow matters and who you allow to speak into your life matters. And when your champion is somebody who treats people like crap, then that makes you feel like it's okay too. You just, it just, it's a natural transference of example. And you know, that's why in the church we have to be really good about leading by example. And unfortunately, because of who some of our church leaders are following, they're becoming like those leaders and then leading by example to their people. It just trickles down. Like, there's some trickle-down economics that really work, you know? Your trickle-down economics of personality, it will really work. Um, I'm not sure it does in the economy in real life, but in like your personality and how you behave, you know, example matters a big, big, big deal. I've never melded together Ronald Reagan economics and the echo chamber together until this one moment. So that was, that was pretty deep right there. It's the nature of the echo. You get more and more of what is put out. I just happen to have a Ronald Reagan Funko Pop doll on my desk, literally right here. And so this podcast episode is brought to you in fact in part by Ronald Reagan's trickle-down economics. And the fact that I know about Ronald Reagan is because my father was a history teacher, which is a completely other podcast conversation. Well, they did, they just released the Nancy Reagan stamp today. That was today. Did they really? Yeah, they did. The commemorative Nancy Reagan stamp. I feel like I used the Nancy Reagan gif within the past couple days. A what? Um, a gif is, I'm sorry. Oh my God, gif. But I said jif because that's the way you should say it because the peanut butter. Yeah, I thought you were talking about peanut butter. I could see where you might be confused, but that's only slightly rude because I understood who you are as a person was able to see value beyond the words that are coming out of your mouth. Yeah, you see, that's what we do. All right, so worst online rude story. Um, I'm just going to open it up here with love. Seth Muse, this is somebody who deals with the internet a lot, is spending a lot of time with Seminary of Hard Knocks ministry and digital space, has done staffing as communications director for churches. Like, this guy's been around. So I'm giving you platform. The worst rude story, go.

It actually doesn't have anything to do with church. This particular one, I, I honestly was like, which story to tell you, you know, um, when you asked me, you said you were going to ask me this. Um, okay, so this guy, I was friends with in high school. It's kind of a jerk anyway, but you know, I don't know, I guess I gravitate towards like-minded people. I'm kind of like that way too. So we hung out in high school and eventually, you know, we stopped being friends. Years go by. My brother is in a band. He's in Austin. He has this really great breakthrough. He gets to open for a band that we all loved when we were kids, like the Toadies. Or the name of the band, if you ever heard the Toadies. Um, so his band gets to open for the Toadies, like the first time. And since then, he's gotten to do that several times. It's really great. But I was just really proud of him, so I shared this thing on Facebook like, so proud he gets to open for the Toadies. And this guy comes out of nowhere and is like, he's not that big of a deal. He's just a small-time band in Austin. This is not really, basically kind of like, you're overexaggerating how big your brother is and you really shouldn't be this excited. You know, I'm like, I'm trying to be excited for my brother. I'm happy for something for him. And it was just kind of like, are you telling me I shouldn't be proud of an accomplishment for my brother and just want to share that with the world? Like, what's wrong with you? And so I responded back and like, hey, you know, I'm just trying to be, I'm happy for my brother, dude. And I don't, I don't care that he's not a big deal. That's kind of a rude thing to say. And man, when I said that, he called me a fat youth pastor riding my brother's coattails of fame and just went off. And I'm just like, why? If it's so rude, call me a fat jerk, but why is youth pastor part of the insult? Like, like, instead of saying a fat jerk, I'm a fat youth pastor. It's like a really weird combo of words. And I'll never forget it. But it was just super rude. Like, you would never say that to somebody to their face. And you know, full disclosure, the last time we ever really talked, he and I was when he slapped my brother and then I punched him in the face. And that was a fight we got into in high school. So that was really, so this was before? That's what ended the friendship, right there? Yeah, so it didn't end on great terms anyway. Okay, yeah, yeah. Well, yeah, I would imagine punching somebody in the face would probably end the friendship. Yeah, yeah, for sure. Um, you know, but you don't mess with my family, man. So it's weird that it came full circle back to something to do with my brother. And he always treated his sister like garbage. And I always thought that was terrible. But anyway, point is, is that, you know, at that point I was like, you know what, I don't have to say anything to this guy. And I, I knew what would happen and what happened did happen. A lot of my friends came to my defense and were like, ripped that guy up, you know? And I just let it happen, you know? And then finally, I just blocked him. You know, he was being belligerent and I was just like, I'm done. It's like, it's that kind of stuff. It's like, why would you say that? You know, he started that. Why do I feel the need to try to stop me from that? Like, what is your problem? And that's what we're seeing. There's a lot of just unnecessary inserting of yourself into situations with an opinion of negativity. And you're not wanted. Like, like, you're not, nobody wants to hear what you have to say. Just let us have our moment. The same way with Star Wars. Just like, if you don't like it, it's fine. You go on a podcast, you can talk about it. I don't like it. Here's why I don't like it. That's fine. But man, don't stop people who do like it. What is, what is your problem? Why do you just not want people to be happy? It's like, what is the deal? That is, uh, that's my worst story. Really, that's the one that made me feel the worst because he insulted me and I, you know, that hurt, you know? I didn't like that. And I just couldn't. Man, when you work for a church, it really limits like what you feel like you can say. Had he said that now when I'm not on church staff, I don't know if, I don't know what I would do. I don't know how that would be different. Uh, honestly, it probably the same. I'd probably just block it and move on. But it just, it's so rude. Such a rude thing to say, you know? I, I for one, I respect the purpose that some people feel like there is. There's a reason that Baby Yoda exists. I, I just for one don't agree with it. Your friend, however, you know, it's, it's like, things like, what is the motive? What, what is he trying to accomplish? Um, and then a little bit like with your response, uh, okay, you're a fat youth pastor who's riding your son's or your, your brother's coattails. Like, that being said, what do you hope to accomplish with any further conversation? Um, and so it's, it's almost like, you know, and this gets even back to the scripture of Jesus turn the other cheek. When it's that hard and when it's that heavy, man, what, what is actually gonna happen? You're gonna say something back. He's gonna say something back. A whole bunch of people are to jump on board and it's going to be World War Three Twitter edition. Uh, and at that point it's like, man, what was, was anything in this glorifying to the kingdom? There's no point. And I think that ninety percent of these types of interactions that get real bad could probably be avoided if we, those who are offended, will go, okay, fine, I'm moving on. I don't need to respond. I don't need you to change your mind. And that's so hard. And because for me, I want everyone, I want everyone to agree. I want everybody to understand. I want you, oh, you think that? Well, let me show you why that what you think has a lot of holes in it, you know? I, I'm a teacher at heart. I really want to help you learn. But I also, I don't want you to go out there and tell anybody else this the wrong way, you know? And like, that's my concern. And I really, that's not my job. I'm not, I'm not responsible for you in every way, you know? I'm trying to, I can do my part, but that's really it. What is to be accomplished? Nothing. Well, I mean, and that even that even brings up an interesting, um, parallel here because you're the guy that said trolls need Jesus. And, and you know, we can tell plenty of stories of people that have been, um, against the idea of church, against the idea of Christ, and coming and maybe with completely different worldviews that are coming into trolling situations. And because of relationships, because of value, because of respect, have actually found their way back to Christ or maybe to Christ for the first time. And so how do we balance? And I don't know that I have the answer for this, but you know, you're the guy that's punching, you're the guy that you punched in the face, the guy that's coming at you, you know, fat youth pastor or whatever. How do we balance him with the idea of, hey, we need to respect this guy with the love of Christ so that he can see Christ in us? I think, man, that's a huge question. Uh, and it's almost, it's almost hard to answer it other than just go case by case because you really kind of have to because there's a lot of factors. It depends on, in my mind, how you respond to that person. You know, for so take it from your own individual point of view, let's say on your personal social media, somebody you get an argument with or somebody's getting really rude or belligerent. Um, you know, I always first go, do I really know this person? You know, do I really know them? I have this, these kind of four I's. It's like identity, intent, interaction, uh, and then instructions. Um, you know, I first want to find out who is this person? Do I know them? And then what is their intention? You know, like, are they really trying to, you know, bring something legitimate to a conversation or are they here just to, you know, insult people and be rude, you know, and be trolls and whatever? So that determines a lot of that. And then it's like, what is the interaction like? Are they being, you know, cussing a lot at me? Are they being insulting? Are they asking a legitimate question? You know, determines should I engage there? Should I get private messages? And then it's like, what am I going to say when I do that either way? Is it, hey, here's what we need to do next? Or, um, do I need to communicate that I didn't appreciate that? Or do I need to communicate, hey, here's, you can take a walk, buddy. You know, I'm out. You know? And or what is it I'm gonna do? And so I kind of have that kind of rubric trying to go through these steps. And if you really like alliteration, there there it is for you. If you're a pastor looking for a way to give it all one letter to start to teach on or something, there you go. But, um, which would be a great sermon series to hear, you know, how to be a Christ follower or an example of Jesus online? I don't, I don't see that sermon series anywhere. I'd love to see it. Um, yeah, I so I start with if I know them and if I know, um, I'm probably going to call them out on the rude behavior privately. You know, I may

Send them a message. But if it's just belligerent and it's just really over the top rude and I fear or see others maybe start to pile on, I may do that publicly and just say, "Hey man, you're not going to behave that way." Or I'll even give a little bit more of the pushback and then like, "Here's how we need to go forward." Because you hate to be the one that's always like, "Here's how we're going to discuss things." It feels very manipulative and controlling, you know? It's like people know how to—should know how to do this. They don't. But, you know, honestly, once you get to that point where you're trying to control the conversation, I find that most people who came in hot just get hotter. And it doesn't really help. And so I don't know how much of that you want to do. But again, if you know this person, you might be able to appeal to their humanity a little bit, appeal to your friendship, and go, "Hey, I'm not sure you quite meant it this way, but here's what I heard." And a lot of times just repeating back what they said to them, it just makes them realize like, "Wow, did I say? Did I really say that? I probably shouldn't have said it that way." So there's a little bit of leeway in that when you know that person.

But if you don't know that person and they're like an acquaintance and they come in super hot on a comment section, man, most of the time I'm just like, "Hide. I'll delete. I'll block them." Even, you know, it's just—you have to like decide these days who do you really want to allow in your personal space? And if you're talking about your personal accounts here—I'm not talking about the church—if you're talking about your personal accounts here, you have to protect yourself from that. Being it'll ruin you, you know? The negativity that will come at you from every direction on who knows what—a picture of your kids, drew, I posted about Star Wars or, you know, I put something up about gun control. You know, whatever it is, all of them seem to be controversial and somebody's got a problem.

And Jeff, I think a lot of it comes from our, you know, not only just being exhausted, but we're all like we want to be the person that comes in with the zing or has the different approach or looks really cool because we thought about it from a different angle nobody saw it coming from. And we want to have that one comment or that zing or that thing that just makes people go, "Good one." And I don't know what that is that makes us feel like we're willing to really just hurt people to get that. It's such a cheap—in wrestling they call it a cheap pop. It's like when you go out to the crowd and go, "I'm glad to be here in Dallas, Texas," and they all go, "Yeah! Dallas! That's where we live!" and they all clap really loud, you know? It's like it's called cheap pop. So you go out and you look for ways just to get people to cheer for you and you do it by having that little zinger. And it sucks.

But that's for your personal stuff. But for the church, I think there's a rubric you have to be careful about because you're representing something bigger. Especially if you're a comms director, if you're over social media in some way or you're interacting—I think if it's again, I think it's the same rubric, but there's a few different steps. Like you would first want to go, "Does this person go to this church? Are they on our membership role? Do I know them? Are they in leadership anywhere? You know, does anybody know who this person is?" And then I'll look at their intent as well and just go, "Do they really have a grievance? Like, do they have a point?" You know, because sometimes in church world people will come in and go like, "Hey, so-and-so was really rude to me at the front door and, you know, I'm not sure I want to come back." And you're like, "What?" And then you find out that yeah, that's really what happened. And then you got to go talk to your greeter or whatever and figure out what happened. And then that's when you say, "Oh, I'm so sorry. I'm—we're going to have discussions and figure out what happened. But please come back, try it again," you know? And you want to have that opportunity so you don't want to miss that.

And so if you're looking at who's coming, who is there, it's like, "Yeah, they're actually—this is a legitimate grievance." But if their intent is just to come in hot and "I hate church right now and I just want churches to all get uncomfortable and someone say something uncomfortable on their page. I'm a cuss," you know, whatever—obviously I'm not here to solve any problems with you. I'm here to just be one. What I've found is that it's funny. Like, I personally, you know, it took me a while to grow the tough skin to be able to do this. And so maybe this is not a good idea or not, I don't delete anything anymore. Like all the ten-times negative stuff that I get on YouTube, I leave it. If only so that people can see how I'm responding to the negative, to the harsh, how I'm showing love in those situations.

And I've even found, you know, Facebook and Twitter where it's more conversational, you know, I have found that the circle around me actually comes and defends me more than I need to defend myself. And I actually love it. Like I have seen non-Christians defend me in some of my views on Christ when people have attacked me. Literally they don't believe in Jesus, but they're recognizing, "Dude, you need to at least respect the guy as an individual." And what happens in those situations when, when, um, you know, I want to say being protected by my posse—although that's kind of what it sounds like a little bit online—I don't have to defend myself. I can actually now take a very pastoral role. "Hey man, I'm sorry you feel this way. If there's anything that I've done, would love to talk about it. I'm concerned for you as a—I don't have to attack. I don't have to defend. I'm in a position because other people are doing that. I'm in a position where I can care for them or I can love them. And that's a much better place to be from a ministry perspective than trying to trade punches, physically or socially, metaversely, whatever—up different options that are out."

I think that's great, you know? And I honestly, I agree with you. You know, a lot of times I tell people like, "Delete, ban stuff," and because it's honestly because churches don't really want to deal with that. And it's an interesting time where we are right now because it does say a lot about your church when you go into their comment section and find them—find how they're interacting with people in the comments section of stuff. If they get comments at all, to be honest. I mean, let's be fair, Facebook isn't trying to help you get in front of anybody these days. So if you've got comments going, that's an accomplishment all in itself.

Now, if half of them are negative, how you're dealing with that—people are going to come to the comments and see, "Oh, fifty comments on this post. What's going on?" Well, it's because one person got mad, said something really rude, and five other people piled on. You don't want your people like ganging up on somebody or, you know, doing stuff like that. So you kind of have to be there in the comments.

And this is where I go, pastors, this is why you need to realize like the digital space—it is your ministry right now. Like you need to be speaking into how do we as a church interact with each other online? Not just getting up at your pulpit and saying, "Isn't it so bad? How terrible everything is online? That's why we don't do anything there," you know? That's not the answer. That's where everybody is. Like you have to go figure out how to teach your people and shepherd them to be a good example, handle negativity, deal with people, because that's the new marketplace, right? It's the old, you know, marketplace we used to talk about—the marketplace, which was your business or whatever. Well, if everybody's at home, even more than ever, the marketplace is the online digital communities that we're a part of, which unfortunately is predominantly social media sites.

So we're interacting with each other in ways about all kinds of stuff that we have no business talking about as an expert, and we sure do. But it is where pastors really need to step in and teach their congregations what appropriate behavior online looks like for a Christ follower, you know? That's a sermon series we need to have a couple times a year. Um, because when you get to the point where you realize they're a troll, you're deleting, you're banning, et cetera, yeah, you've lost the connection there. There's no opportunities anymore. All you have is how everybody saw you deal with it. And that matters too.

So if you've got church members that are even on their own social media sites posting memes about with politicians that are, you know, getting killed or getting tied up and beat up, and, you know, you know, promoting violence or, you know, saying racist stuff or misogynist stuff—as a pastor, it is your role to step in, contact that person, go, "Hey, I've seen some of the stuff you're putting online. I need to talk with you about what kind of image that puts out about who Jesus is to the world." And you need to step into that. And it doesn't matter which side of the aisle you're on, it cannot—it cannot contradict with Christian values. And any side can do it. So it doesn't matter what you vote, you got to stop people from behaving this way that are in your church because it is happening in your church. And you know, and I think we're really worried about how we as the church are being treated. How is the church treating everybody else? Or each other, for that matter, you know? I think that's something that pastors really need to turn inward and look and see where is my leadership needed in that space? I think that'd be very valuable.

You're really starting to pull the thread here a little bit of the echo chamber, right? Where, you know, the—is the church surrounding itself with people that think like the church in digital space? And, you know, I mean, I'm a metaverse guy, but and that's why I think it's even a presence there in metaverse and virtual reality. But more tangibly here with social media, are we connecting with people who think differently than us for a purpose of sharing Jesus and connecting them with the kingdom? Or are we surrounding ourselves with people who think like us? And we're really missing the larger potential of this social media mission field and the power that we have digitally to connect people to Jesus, you know?

Often I feel like the greatest—I've said this several times, Seth—I think the greatest resource churches have today are the people that are sitting in our pews. Activating them and giving them purpose, helping them get on mission in digital space and social media, physical neighborhoods, in many different ways. But there's definitely opportunities for people to connect and use whatever social influence they have for the kingdom. But to your point, I think that we're missing it because we're working hard as a church to try to control environments that we really shouldn't control. We should be releasing them and allowing the world to come in and connect with us in these digital spaces.

How much are you feeling that tension? Or what are you like, what are you thinking about?

Well, you remind me of the story. This, um, you know, my company is Church.com Team. We help churches with communications and do it all for them, you know? And really what we focus on a lot is this internal communication, how things work, systems, all that good stuff. One of the things we work, we do, is we manage social media for these churches. And I'll tell you, it's interesting. I've had churches tell me one way or the other how they want to deal with reels on Instagram and TikTok. Um, one of our one of our clients didn't want to do reels, and the—

Reason is because we were putting their sermon series on reels. They were getting a lot of negativity about it because reels and TikTok, um, they get you in front of people that don't know you. They put you in front of people that have no idea who you are. And when your content hits their for you page or it hits their feed, they interact with it raw and based on what they're feeling at that moment, based on who they are, their experiences, their experience with the church. And here's this random pastor telling them about who knows what. And so we've had churches actually say, "I don't want to do reels anymore." And you know, I understand. Like, if you don't have—so not I'm not knocking that church, but I understand like if you don't have someone who's in the comments whose job it is to like interact with people and handle these kinds of things and really be a pastor there, then it can get off the rails and you don't even know it. And then you're like, "Why is my church on the news all of a sudden?" Oh, it's because this thing happened because of something blew up in the comments section. Like, what? We didn't have anybody on that, you know? It's like if you're gonna do that, you do need somebody paying attention. But at the same time, it's kind of sad to miss, you know, the absolute definition of a mission field given to us on a silver platter and go, "No, thank you," you know? With that social media space. And so it, I am seeing that, and that tension is there. It's like, what do we do? Uh, and I think again, it's that mind shift. The pastor's understanding from the top down that this is part of your ministry. This is not what you do to show what your ministry is. This is your ministry. The people are there, and you need staff for it. You need a budget for it. You need to, you know, get people involved in it. So I'm seeing that a lot.

And honestly, the algorithm—you mentioned the echo chamber a couple times. The algorithm of all these platforms exists. I mean, it is literally mathematical confirmation bias at its finest. The algorithm exists to show you what you want to see and what you interact with. And so if you are clicking things, asking for things, commenting on things, then you're going to get more of that. And what I like about TikTok versus like Facebook and all those others is how that algorithm works. Actually, TikTok will show you the type of content. So if I like and interact with, like, food—you know, TikToks, somebody's cooking. It won't show me that creator's food all the time. It'll show me a whole bunch of new ones. Like, here, oh, you like the guy—guy with a pot is what it's called. He has a knife. He's out in the woods. He's cooking, and it's—he's on a stump. He's cooking fresh stuff in a pot and a metal skillet. It's awesome. It's all outdoors, open flame. And I'm learning so much about food, and I love food. So, um, I mean, obviously I'm a fat youth pastor, so, uh, you know, so I'm learning so much. So I like that. So I'll see that food one, and then it'll show me like four or five other food TikTok things. And if I interact, give me some more. With Instagram and Facebook, it's like if my crazy uncle posts some random meme and that makes me mad and I comment on it, they're like, "Oh, he wants to hear more from crazy uncle." And then I start seeing all of crazy uncle's posts, and then we start getting in fights all the time, you know? And it's like that's kind of a difference where, you know, the shift has happened in how those algorithms work. And so when you got churches that are like trying to figure out how to get in front of people, you know, it's TikTok and reels and that sort of stuff and YouTube. Those are your places to go do that. And then for your own people, now we're shifting down to like Facebook. Not really doing that unless you're paying for it. And then we don't even know. So Facebook and Instagram and Twitter and all those others, it's kind of teaching to your people. So when you get negativity in different places, it's different types of negativity. So you have to learn how to deal with that different type of negativity in those different types of places.

So churches that are not staffing for this—like everything I just said to you probably makes you go, "Oh my gosh, oh man, we have so much to do," you know? Because yeah, it's a big place. The internet's a big place, and there's a lot happening there. So I feel like the online negativity there—it's the algorithm. It's what's going to really, um—it's not your friend. It is really not your friend. It comes off as like, "Hey, you can post this one little thing and it's going to go viral," and the assumption is, "And everyone's going to love it." But most of the time, if it goes viral, it's because everybody hates it. And that's something churches have to know. And if you're not willing to deal with that, uh, you gotta eat. Yup. You're not gonna be able to do all these things with social media.

So which, which then gets to this point: How do we, how do we love people on social media that don't love us? Uh, if we're trying to get away from the echo chamber, that's going to get us connected with people with differentiating views. You're telling the story of the church that's getting hate on TikTok because of, um, you know, the reels or whatever. But and we, we want that. We don't want to run away from that. We want that feedback. We want to build that relationship. How do we, how do we love people that don't love us?

Well, I think first you have to give up the right to be right. And any good relationship, there's going to be dynamics and roles and, you know, things like we're the teacher, you're the student, you know? There's that kind of relationship. There's father, son, mother, daughter, whatever. All that brother-sister types of relationships you can have. And with the church online, I think the only real way you can convey love and care is by sharing stories of love and care. You can't—you can put teaching out there for those who are your people who want to be taught. You can put sermons out there, Bible studies, that sort of thing. You can do all that, and you need to because your people need that. It's a way of discipling online. It's valuable, and it's awesome for SEO, right? So it's good to do that anyway. But for the people who you don't interact with, what do they need? They need to know that you're not nuts. They need to know that you're not mean. They need to know that you love them where they are. That your first goal with them is not to change everything about them.

I mean, can you imagine what it's like to an LGBTQ person from that community, any a trans person, who's wondering if they're welcome at your church or not? Even they're not even wondering that. They're wondering like, "Why should I give a care about this because I'm obviously not welcome? They think my whole life and everything that I am is wrong, and they're going to want me to change, and they don't want to do that." And so the first thing you hit them with is, "How God changes lives." Well, they don't want that. They don't want to be changed, you know? It's like, "That's okay." Well, immediately, "Thank you." Immediately, "No." And it's like we're not finding that message. What is the message? The message is, "Hey, you want to come over for dinner with no strings attached? Do you just want to be friends?" And when we look at church content, especially on social media content, what many churches want is they want you to come to their events. They want you to come over to their house to, uh, Bible studies, to, you know, things that they're doing. And we're not that interested in going and having dinner with them where they are, you know? We're not showing like how we care about them in our content. Uh, we're not praying for them, you know, that we say we can see online. We're not highlighting them without strings attached, um, you know? When we look at our communities, we can say, uh, where are some of those businesses that we want to promote? Like, there's a business that's hurting. Let's all go help them out. Let's all go eat there today, you know? That kind of stuff that churches can do that just promotes unity in the community. And you know, I think that's a big part of what we're not doing. We think social media is for us to get something from people with, and it's really for us to give things away to people. And we're not giving away some of our best stuff, which is we do love people. We do care about people. We do help people, um, and we're not telling anybody about it when we do it. So they don't know. They have one narrative, and that is the, you know, the angry people on TikTok who hate the church, you know? I see those all the time.

Unity in the community. Well, well said. With that, so much of how the church is using this social media is very much a "come and see, come and see what we're doing." Even the church that's, um, that you know is posting the teaching clip, it's—yeah, I mean, that's a, um, you know, maybe it's meant to bring out a reaction. And with community, I think there's a potential to follow through on that. But it's still is a "this is who we are, this is who we are, this is who we are" instead of positioning the church, maybe asking questions instead of making statements, using question marks instead of periods, getting off the platform and letting someone else get on the platform and starting to ask, you know, "How can we help you? Who are you?"

I'll tell you a church that's doing it really, really well. I just interviewed him on it. It's Crossroads Church. Um, Kyle Ranson is the Cincinnati, uh, yeah, Ohio. Yeah, they've got campuses everywhere. They have an "Anywhere Church," which is their online anywhere in church. And he's basically the pastor over that. That's Kyle Ranson. Actually, my co-host, uh, on the Seminary of Hard Knocks podcast. Uh, Megan's her brother-in-law. Uh, and so, uh, but man, go to their—go to Crossroads. To the Crossroads Church, I forget. I wrote it. Crossroads.net. Yeah, Crossroads.net. And go to their Church Anywhere. Oh my gosh, you want to find out how to really disciple people online? That's the best I've seen of anybody of what they're doing. Their content, their style, just how their—how much they're doing, they—how much they've dedicated to it. If you really want a 101 course in how to do that really well, they're awesome. And of course, I know you're doing a lot of great stuff too, you know? But, um, with churches, and so you guys are listening to this, haven't worked with Jeff? Get with Jeff. Oh, that was so, so, so sweet. Yeah, totally. Uh, but no, Crossroads, man. That you're right. They're nailing it. They are really taking advantage of the digital. They're recognizing that you have to do something different, uh, to really reach and connect digitally than the physical. And they've—they've always, I say always, especially in the COVID season, they've been able to separate digital and physical, not lessening physical, not devaluing digital, but allowing those two. And even to the point of, you know, I've met Kyle, uh, once or twice, but even to the point where they've got a guy whose literal job is to pastor the digital church, not to drive those people to attend a physical location, but to do minister to ministry, to disciple people in those spaces utilizing those tools.

I'm going to start crying over here. I mean, that's, that's, that's just a beautiful thing. It is beautiful. When I was interviewing him, I teared up a few times. It's just like, "Man, I'm so glad. I'm so thankful for you because I didn't think anybody was doing this, you know?" I think there's people trying, but I didn't think there's anybody out there doing it as well already as you, you know? And just the love that he has for his people, it's so palpable when you're talking to him. Oh, it's so good. And I think that's one of the things that as a church pastor, you know, you're looking at like—

How can we reach this next generation well? They're not going to come to your church. You're going to have to go to them. You're going to have to meet them in digital spaces and you're going to have to go to metaverse or chat room kind of would. As somebody said, that metaverse is now like, if you take away the entertainment aspect of it, it's like the creepy version of AOL chatrooms.

Oh, 100 percent. VR Chat is the equivalent of AOL chat, 1990 chat rooms. It's ugly, but it's like it's beta, you know? Everything's being, we're just trying stuff, right? You know, so of course, yeah. I mean, now we look back on AOL stuff and we're like, yeah, it's kind of weird. You could just chat with people. It's like, yeah, now we're gonna be able to talk to him face to face with a computer avatar. It's like, yeah, yeah, that's that's cool. No, it's also weird, but we'll figure it out. We'll figure it out, you know? It's got a lot of positives to it.

You know, I'm concerned, you know, where the church is. You know, we have a PR problem. There's a lot of things going on. And part of the issue with loving people well online is getting through that first barrier of what, how do they feel about the church? You know, have, and I think for us we kind of just need to take our medicine a little bit, you know? Let them scream at us, you know? Like you said, leave the comments up. Put the stuff out there and let people yell at us. And when, maybe it'll be cathartic for them, who knows? But we need to be visible saying we're acknowledging the issue, you know? It's when you shut those voices down or you don't engage and you just kind of disappear, or it communicates that you don't care. It communicates that you don't think there's anything wrong, that it's their problem, not your problem. And it just communicates this disconnect that's only growing, especially online, because that's where they're yelling about it and the church is not there dealing with it because we don't want to deal with the negative.

And you know, I think we need to kind of take our licks a little bit because yes, we've covered up sexual assault. Yes, we've incubated misogyny. Yes, we have, you know, made it okay for racism to exist in some places. You know, we've done some things that we need to at least acknowledge could be possibly a problem. And if we can't do that, then it looks like, man, if you don't be part of the solution, they're saying see ya. And it's just something we're gonna have to talk about. And I think some of it is like, let them yell at us, let them cuss at us. Let us, I mean, if you can stomach it, you know, it's just something I think it's a ministry to the people.

Well, let me ask this because I mean, that that sets this up perfectly. How does the church not be so defensive? How do we as Christians learn to not be defensive in these situations? Um, by defensive, we intentionally or unintentionally really push away some of these people that are wanting to ask questions, you know? It's interesting you're talking metaverse. Like, I even have had people in the metaverse tell me that are attending church in virtual reality that they find it's much easier and safer. De-churched, um, agnostics, atheists, by attending church in virtual reality, they're able to get their questions answered and dialogue in safe environments. And they've told me, yeah, we could never do this on social media. We could never do this in physical church, but virtual reality, that we have not experienced that defensiveness for whatever reason.

Um, so how do we, how do we set down the defensive approach and engage in more communication? It's hard. It's hard to answer that question. I'm not sure that anyone really knows other than giving up the ability to say I'm right, giving up the goal of like changing someone's mind on the spot before they know you, before they know you care about them. Was it Maya Angelou that said nobody cares what you know until they know that you care? Um, I think that was her. I'm not sure.

Um, I feel like we as Christians are more concerned with winning than winning hearts, and I think there's a big difference in how we approach that. When you see people online that have said it's not as scary to discuss this stuff, somebody on the other end there has either been trained or also been hurt and understands that I'm not trying to win an argument. I'm just trying to win your heart so that you're open a little bit more to what Jesus has for you. And I think that the church has given up that mission in large part due to the fact that we have gotten in bed with, you know, politics and other things that we think we can that can help us win.

And I, I mean, this happens in my family. Um, you know, I have family that that is, uh, I have a transgender nephew. And, um, you know, other of my family, very, very difficult conversation, very difficult to deal with. That, you know, like we don't know how to deal with that, you know? We don't know. And I'll tell you what doesn't work is sending him Bible verses about how that's sinful or praying for him that God would change his heart into him, you know? So he can hear it. Um, you know, it's like that that kind of stuff we think is doing the right thing, and technically theologically you might be right, but that's a bad approach because it doesn't consider the individual as a person. You're not trying to win their heart. You're not trying to help them see the beauty, grace, and the love of Christ.

And I got to be honest, Jeff, at the end of the day, whether or not a person is straight or trans is less important than whether or not a person is a Christ, as a believer in Christ, a follower of Christ. If they follow Christ, the Spirit should convict them. The Spirit will lead them. It's really not your problem. And that's that's hard for us to accept because we're supposed to look out for our brother. We're supposed to care for our neighbor. We're supposed to do, but that doesn't mean you're supposed to like grab them and hold them down and control them. I mean, you can legislate anything into any, you can handmaid tale anything, you know? If you had enough power, but that doesn't mean people are going to love you for it and thank you for it. Thank you for saving us from ourselves. Nobody's going to do that. And when we take that approach, all we're doing is pushing people away.

It seems that the rhetoric has gotten more to that than how can I love my neighbor? How can I care for them? How can I show them they matter? How can I see them? How can I show them that Jesus is not trying to push you away? Let him deal with that issue in their life. Because when we start focusing on that, I got to be honest, it just screams to me that we have completely misunderstood the whole plank verse about the board in our own eye, you know? That we've started to assume that we don't have things we got to work on. And you know, it just, it's lacking a humility that comes with that.

Um, and just there's so much there. We're trying to just prove people wrong and win arguments. And I'll tell you, if you want to prove somebody wrong, prove this wrong. This is a common phrase on TikTok. There's no hate like Christian love. That's what they say. I've seen that a million times. You want to prove something wrong? Proof that wrong. Dang, I hadn't heard that one yet. There's no hate like Christian love.

Um, man, I actually have no idea. I'll ask one more question by the way. Um, it wasn't Maya Angelou. It was Theodore Roosevelt. Oh, is it Roosevelt? Okay. You know, I don't have the Theodore Roosevelt bobblehead on my desk, but I can once again show the Ronald Reagan at this time.

Um, hey, I'm just, um, um, there's no hate like Christian love. All right, so let me let me ask this. Well, let's let's land the plane on this one, okay? All right, so all right, maybe I'm the guy that that is showing more hate and love. Maybe I'm the Christian that's embodying that statement. There's no hate like Christian love, okay? I gotta change. How I would start by doing a social media fast and going straight into the Word and trying to remember how much you've been saved from. Um, if you can't start there, get away from the things that are probably fueling that feeling. And you can feel it, you know? There's time I just recently, I recently deleted my Twitter account. No kidding? Just deleted it. I'm not going back.

Um, I'd delete Facebook too if I could, but I worked there. I don't work for Facebook, but I work, you know, with churches, and I have to help with Facebook, and that's where a lot of stuff is, so it's a necessary evil. I think a lot of people feel that way. But if you can get away from some of these places, I think tailoring your feed, uh, with you know, choosing who you see, unfollowing people, unfriending people, even create lists on Facebook, create lists and Instagram, on Twitter use those features to tailor an experience that is life-giving and positive. Stop reading the news, um, especially Twitter. And I just feel like there's so much there. Like you have to, you have to, you have to clean up what you're allowing in. Uh, you have to figure out what are those things that that trigger your anger, that trigger your, um, that fuel that fire of I've got to go get somebody, you know? And I've got those things too. And I'm certainly not innocent of, you know, flying off the handle and handling things poorly or, you know, spouting off on social media into the, you know, yelling into the void. I do that too. And I noticed it. And that's when I go, you know what? I got to get this app up off my phone. I had Facebook deleted off my phone for a while. Um, you know, I've set limits on TikTok and things at times when I feel like it's just getting bad.

You have to monitor yourself because we both know the social media companies, they're not going to do it for you. They don't want to. Their algorithm exists to keep you on the platform as long as possible so they can sell things to you. They're not going to try to help. They may give you these tools and stuff. Hey, you want to quit? Real small button. You want to take a break? No, thank you. Okay, cool. We're back to scrolling. But you've got to tailor that experience.

The other thing I would say is that you need to really listen to people who love you. And there will be people in your life that really do love you who will say you're kind of a jerk online. You're kind of a jerk about this stuff, or you get mad about this too much. And take those cues and say maybe there's something to that and start to filter that stuff out in your life.

And I think last, you really need to take inventory of who you're allowing to speak into your life. Um, is there a spiritual mentor in your life? Is there somebody that you can talk about life, about politics, about church life, theology, video games, whatever you're into? Is there someone who is smarter than you, wiser than you, older than you, that is willing to spend time? Don't wait for them to reach out. You reach out.

My coach sees the world a very different way than I do, and he infuriates me sometimes. He's in his eighties. He's eighty-seven. I just found out he was eighty-seven. I thought he was younger than that. He's just one of those guys with the light in his eyes, you know, twinkling his eyes and real sharp. Um, he's not going to go peacefully. He's going to, he's going to drop dead wherever he is. He's just like that kind of guy. And, uh, you know, he'll be doing something, but, um, but he's not like me, and it's frustrating, but it's helpful, you know? Who are those people in your life? And then the spiritual authorities that you allow to speak in your life, you know, there's a lot. It's an on-demand culture, and that's dangerous, you know? When we think that because we've chosen a good pastor and we like a certain podcast and we read a certain book, nobody reads books about stuff they don't already like.

Mean the only place you do that is in school. You get assigned a book and then you read something and it stretches you. I mean, honestly, I'm going to say this now, but if you're in charge of your education, you don't have an education because you're only going to find things that already confirm your bias. You're going to like that stuff, you know? That's what you're going to find. So when you're like, "I read the Bible in a year and I listen to this podcast on it," and I'm like, "Great, what else did you do?" You know, that's one of the good things about school is you go in, they assign you a teacher, and that teacher tells you what that teacher wants to tell you, and you have to interact with it and deal with it, and that stretches you. That's good for you.

You know, so anyway, I feel like those are the things I would do. If you're feeling yourself getting that way, you have to listen to those people, especially around you. That'll be your indicator. Like, am I getting in fights a lot? Am I not getting work done because I'm on the internet a lot? You know, I look back over your personal feed. Is it mostly memes? Are they like aggressive and angry and political in nature? Time to take a break. You know, it's time to take an inventory. You know, take a look at your life. When that guy keeps talking about killing Baby Yoda, then you know, maybe, maybe you need to cut that guy loose. Let him out. Are they all assassination stuff about fictional characters? It's kind of weird. Maybe check yourself. That is definitely weird. But you know, when you get those spiritual directors, when you get those other voices, that's when you really start to break down the echo chamber. Like, maybe Facebook is giving you very strong, but if you don't have those other voices, maybe even in the real world in physical space that is challenging those echo chambers, then you're not realizing how much you really are stuck in that situation.

And I'm a digital guy saying that, but the opportunity—and that really, I think that was the biggest damage of COVID in my opinion—wasn't that it was digital because I think digital is good, but I think it was the lack of physical. In that there was not really a balance between the two. And we were all living digital lives and things went crazy, and that's a whole other podcast, you know?

It's funny, and I'll put a link to this in the show notes. We just did a roundtable podcast with Dave Ferguson over at Community Christian Church, Exponential CEO, New Thing. Dave Ferguson—that guy—and so we were talking about his best practices, and that what we're working through with Digital Church Network is how to take his blessed practices and use that as a process and a framework to create digital missionaries. So like, the best practices, if you're not familiar, it's "Begin with Prayer." The B is "Listen." So we're fervently praying before any conversation, and the first thing we're doing in the conversation is actually listening. We're not talking. We're not platforming. We're not pushing our agenda. We're listening to the individual.

And in physical space, Dave's the E is "Eat." What we're doing is shared experiences digitally. We're now, "Hey, so I'm listening to you, but let's experience something together in digital, whether that's gaming, whether that's talking, whether it's whatever." But there's opportunities to engage and to serve. And after you begin with prayer, after you listen, after you engage in experiences, after you serve them in digital space, this is where we really want to get to: telling our story, telling the story of Jesus.

And so much of that positions us—the missionary—in a place of humility. We don't really even platform what we want. We don't tell the story of Jesus. We don't really play that card until number five. And just understanding that in today's culture, it's not about us being right. It's about us actually listening to someone, and through that, getting to know them better. And that's how you're going to build a platform or spiritual authority or some kind of right to tell someone, "Here's some things that you ought to look at in your life." And it takes time. And with our society and the way it was working, COVID busted that way up. It was that we were creating programs and experiences. We were creating experiences for people to come and be part of, come here, be part of an experience, go home. That's not a discipleship model. That's an entry-level meet and greet with some important things that happen.

And that discipleship process is long. It's messy. It's ugly. You can't program it. You can't put together a tried-and-true process for every single person. It's something you just have to get to know someone and do life with them. And I hate using those clichés, but that's what it is. It's like rubbing shoulders next to each other. It's smelling like your mentor, you know? They say it's like you learn to herd sheep, and you don't come in—you don't smell like sheep. You didn't learn how to herd sheep. You know, that sort of thing. And that's what it is to be around a shepherd: you smell like the shepherd who smells like sheep. And that is how you learn. And those kinds of things—we in an on-demand society—I know we fear how easy it is to lose someone because if they don't like something, say they can just go find another pastor somewhere in the digital space. You know, like, "I didn't like that sermon. I'm not going to listen to him anymore. I'm just going to turn on something else. I'll go to Craig Rochelle or I'll go to Andy Stanley or I'll do Furtick or whatever." It's like you can just find it. And so we have to figure out a way to earn that—not loyalty, but that right to speak. And it doesn't come through your ability to deliver a sermon. It just comes through this ability to connect with other people in a real way. And it takes time. And you can't do it with a lot of people. And you know, there's no way to scale it. You can't scale discipleship, I don't think. It's you can teach, but true apprenticeship—it takes focus.

Yeah, I feel like that's the nature of digital where it gives you that ability to do that. Man, this has been a good conversation. I feel like we have a better understanding of how to deal with rude people and maybe even recognizing that we've unconsciously or subconsciously been rude ourselves. And Seth, I apologize to you once again for inferring that Baby Yoda does die and that anyone who thinks different is stupid. Big, big fat youth pastor Seth guy.

Hey, I feel the same way about Jar Jar.

Oh yeah, yeah. I mean, this is the dark right? He actually considered committing—I mean, this is the dark. He actually considered killing himself. There was so much negativity around that. And so did Jake Lloyd, the kid that played young Anakin. I mean, they got so much hate from the toxic Star Wars community. I mean, it can really kill you. It really can.

And that's the connection we do have to make: that what you don't want happening in your church is incubating a scenario where someone can do stuff like that to someone and it literally kills them because they go commit suicide or they get angry and there's violence. I mean, it can go there. We've seen it. You know, that's a very real danger. And at the very least, it could just make them not care at all what anybody who says that a Christian says about anything, you know? And it just kills their spiritual life. There's reality to that.

I don't want to get into the example, but a friend of mine tried to attempt suicide. It was averted, but it was tied loosely to relationships within a church. And so there's some truth to that, and it's something that we need to be aware of and cognizant of because it will continue to be an issue even moving forward. The metaverse is just going to make things more complicated. It's not going to make it easier. So we got to figure this 2.0 stuff out before we get into the 3.0 that's coming very soon.

Well, I think we got our best people on it, so I'm excited to see what happens. Hey, man, thanks for jumping on this. It's been a great time. Love catching up with you. And we'll have to do it again. But anyway, like I said, you know, Seth, just that's landing the plane here. If people want to connect with you, what's great ways for them to connect with you outside of this podcast?

Yeah, if you're looking for church com help, go to churchconteam.com and see what we've got to offer you there. Basically, for less than the price of a full-time employee, we give you a whole team and strategy and execution and all kinds of stuff, so it's helpful. So if you're looking for that, we would definitely help with that. Sethmuse.com is a good place to connect with me as well personally. You can find my podcast, The Seminary of Hard Knocks, there or anywhere you get your podcasts. And then join my Facebook group. You know, I'm starting a Discord server soon that'll be coming out. So you know, I'm just trying to find where is the place that I need to connect best. But yeah, I'm all over the socials at Just Seth Muse or The Seth Muse.

Love it. And you on Discord will be interesting. I think I'll like it, what that looks like coming together. It's more written. It's an interesting culture. It's very easy to get Discord people to connect with you. It's a lot harder to get non-Discord people on.

Yes, yeah. And so that's really the pain point. You're not going to get that. It's a new platform. Forty-year-old soccer mom on Discord. But you will get a lot of twenty-somethings that are really passionate and get them to engage.

So awesome. Hey, love it, man. For but we're going to land the plane. We got to go. It's been a good one. All you rude people out there, stop harassing me. But for Seth, this is Jeff with the Church Digital and the Digital Church Network. Thanks for jumping on the podcast. See you next time on the show. Y'all have a good one.