EP336 - The Challenge of Mental Health in Digital Missions

All right. Hey everybody. Welcome to the Church Digital podcast stream, whatever it is we're calling this thing. I may be in a little bit of a branding slump here.

Podcasts aren't as cool as they used to be. YouTube seems to be all the rage. And so we've been doing the Church Digital podcast since I don't know, 2019, and I got to rebrand this thing, but not really because evidently the Church Digital is taking off and going awesome. Hey, Jeff Reed here, founder, president, and you know, just in general windbag, and so it's great to have you here with us today.

We're going to be doing some fun conversations. I love talking about stuff I don't have a clue on, and today's conversation is going to get into that. We're going to get into the weeds a little bit on maybe it's soul care, maybe it's mental health, maybe it's chaplaincy. To be honest, I'm still trying to figure all of that out.

But what we're really want to get into is how we, the Church Digital, can help you digital missionaries do ministry in digital and in virtual spaces.

So we've got some great guests. We've got Stacy, we've got Elm Michelle coming on, two ladies that have some dirt under their fingernails, so to speak, when it comes to mental health, soul care, caring for individuals in digital and virtual spaces.

So very much looking forward to this conversation coming up. Hey, we've got some people jumping on with us already in addition to streaming on YouTube. Evidently, Mr. Pete jumping in from the outside saying you are in big screen as well. Thank you, Mr. Pete. Mr. Pete is like a walking promotional distribution channel all unto himself.

And so if you did not check out the conversation we had with Mr. Pete couple weeks ago, maybe 3:34, loved it. Multiple people have said to me that I need to have Mr. Pete on to have a one-hour theological conversation about the end of the world involving whatever Mr. Pete's puppet was. I don't remember, was it Petey? Was that the name of the puppet? And so, you know, give the people what they want.

I don't know that I'm up to date on the theology behind the end of the world necessarily, you know, pre-post, there's a whole different thing there. But it would be interesting. Mr. Pete, thank you once again for jumping on with us. Troy is skipping school once again. So excited to actually not excited to see Troy. Troy, what? Three more weeks, bro. Like, get your butt back in class. Just turn the phone off. Finish up. After you graduate, you can go to town, man. Love it.

Leighton is saying, "Let's go with a whole bunch of random things," because once again, Leighton speaks a language that none of the rest of us do. That's a common discussion here with the Church Digital. Mr. Pete, once again, the distribution beast that he is, has got this posted. Steve Reid is doing comments from the outside talking about Gramps, which is interesting. Gramps is what my father is called. That's what my kids call my father. And so that was an internal triggering mechanism. That's okay.

And good news, Troy does not have school. Troy has work. And so we have cleaned up. We've gotten through all the pre-show chat of what's happening here. Excited about that. If you guys have questions, guys and gals, anybody who's watching this, feel free, feel free to throw it in chat. Looking forward to this conversation at hand.

Before we get going on it, I do—oh, Steve, actually, I don't know. Was Mr. Pete's puppet named Gramps? It is. Okay. Yeah. So Elm Michelle is nodding in the green room. It's Gramps. I thought it was Petey. No disrespect.

Oh my gosh. Mr. Pete's puppet is named Gramps. Good. There's so many jokes right there. All right. So I'm going to have to have dinner with my father one day and just, you know, let the day happen. It'll be good. It'll be a good time.

Anyway, hey, listen. Something to put on your radar coming up, May 20th. Tuesday, May 20th, we're doing a town hall meeting. Those of you who know with the Church Digital, once a quarter, we get together and do a town hall where we ask questions. We listen to what's going on with the people that are doing digital missions work that are part of the Church Digital community.

This is really a part of the show where we listen to you and we want to learn what your challenges are, what you're stuck on. And really we want to start to explore how we can help. And so I'll sneak peek this whole mental health, soul care piece is going to be a big part of the May 20th town hall.

In addition, the schedule of what our upcoming fall conferences will be announced on May 20th. And wait, the upcoming fall conferences. Did he say plural? Yes, he said plural. I think I leaked it last week. We're going to be doing at least more than one. I technically, you have to do more than one if you're going to say more. So yes, we're going to be doing more than one conference in the fall. Thus the term conferences. And I, it's going to be more than two. It's going to be more than three. We still got one more detail to figure out, but it's going to be very exciting how I think all of this is going to come together.

And so May 20th, put on your calendar, 1:00 p.m. Eastern, this time in about three weeks or so. And it's going to be a great time to come together and celebrate what you all are doing in digital mission work. I keep moving my hand, which is making my camera out of focus. It's to celebrate May 20th, what you guys and gals are up to in digital and virtual spaces. And start to talk about how we can resource and help you better to accomplish that.

And so, hey, great. Thanks. Looking forward there. I did it again. I just, I want to, I want my autofocus. I've got to keep my hand lower because my camera focus is racking. It's driving me nuts. Stacy knows. She's got it. Anyway, hey, let me introduce to the show, to the people hanging out backstage, Stacy and Elm Michelle.

I would, you know, Elm Michelle, I usually call you the coolest person I've ever met online, which does not say much for Stacy. So I feel like I need to do a better descriptive. So, two of the coolest people I've met on—well, actually, that's not even a stretch. You know, Stacy starts talking about her DJ days and like she's so much cooler. So much cooler. No, no, no. Okay. All right, Stacy. How many times have you seen Linkin Park in concert?

Oh, that's a long—that's a lot. I'd say 15 times.

Cool. Yeah. You know what I'm saying right there? Like I don't even need Stace. Elm Michelle, you are no longer the coolest. You are a close second. Like you just got trumped.

Yeah. Yeah, it is. It's a lot. I know. I will have to say I haven't seen them in the last eight or nine years, though. So yeah.

What in the not planned part of the conversation, what is the musical act that you've seen the most in concert?

Well, for me, is it Linkin Park? Is it okay? It is Linkin Park. Yeah. But I've seen my brother play many, many times growing up and recently too. So yeah. Yeah. I've seen the worship band at my church every Sunday, but I'm not counting that as a show. So maybe I should, but that wasn't on my list.

That's funny. All right. So these two ladies are chaplains through the Church Digital. And so we're going to get into exactly what that means and how they are here to help digital missionaries help people like you be more effective in the ministry that God's called you to do.

But before we get there, I'd love to maybe just give them an opportunity to tell a little bit of their story, what they do, what their background is. And so to kick it off, Stacy, do you maybe want to share a little bit of your story and your background?

Yeah, sure. So it first started, I think, back in the day, and it had to do with Linkin Park. I joined their message board, the fan club message board, and that's back in the days where you had all these different threads going back and forth, asynchronous. And so it was really a compelling moment when I realized, wow, these people are hurting. And they're sharing lots of details. And I was just present to them. I didn't fix them. I didn't tell them what to do, but I was just like, "Oh, that sounds really heavy or horrible." And that really started an idea of chaplaincy work. I didn't know what that was going to look like in my future. This is in 2003. I had no idea what that looked like.

But as I did more experiences with chaplaincy in my church denomination and what how they did that, you know, it was all these different industries they were doing. So I thought, oh well, what about music? Because I was into music at that time, and that's kind of where it started. And then as it's always been, though, in the digital space—yes, in person, but my focus has been in the digital space because that's where people are. They were showing up. So and then got connected with TCD, I think it's through Facebook, maybe a few years ago, and then can't get rid of me, and involved with my church, which is a mostly digital platform church.

I imagine church. That's I'm sitting here talking away and like y'all are being quiet, idiot. I'm muted. Sorry.

I went to—no one tells the host. No one checks the host. We were just like, we're like, awesome.

Hey, Andy, we're going to go ahead and cut out like moments eight to eleven. We'll have to do some edits around that point.

Oh, good. Very cool. I always thought that you found this through Imagine Church, not separate, but maybe I was off on that.

It was a long time ago. What do I know? It feels like a long time ago. It's really, what, four years maybe? During COVID, maybe.

Elm Michelle, what's your background?

Well, let's see. In the digital space, my background is news reporting, believe it or not, and just kind of reporting on news at the state level and politics of the time of the early 2000s. But at a similar time, I gotten into writing a column that I called "Stories of Faith" at the time, and just writing people's testimonies because I love story and I love to hear people's stories, and was really pressing in more to God at the time. This was like my mid-twenties, and I was like, it'd be kind of cool. I'm doing all these news stories. It'd be cool if I could do stories that were more surrounding testimonies. So I started doing that, and that just kind of led me down a path of finding more of God, more of purpose, like starting to do media more along the lines of media ministry, which I didn't know at the time. I just was calling it media for God.

And so it started with radio ministry with my pastor now, about twenty years ago, just kind of helping out with the radio ministry. And then at that time there was like MySpace and things like that, and we were like, we should start putting what we believe on MySpace too. So that was like all the rage. Like, yeah, we're going to do that. Then we were like, we need something called a website, and I just remember WordPress was so big back then. Oh, WordPress, you could build your own. You don't have to pay people thousands of dollars to then decide they don't want to be your web designer and take their site and your site with them.

So, you know, it was all about learning how to translate what we were doing, how to transfer that into more of a digital type package.

And it just really grew from there to having smaller cameras like the flip cam and doing quick videos and then Facebook and the social networks.

And fast forward to now, it's always been emerging media and technology and ministry, how those things could merge. But I didn't have much of a community until I met like Jeff and saw like I'm one of a whole bunch of other people who are doing this too. I just had not met them yet. And from there just began to be more encouraged even in the things that we're doing now with smart glasses and the metaverse and now I'm here working more in the mental health space.

I'll say during the pandemic is when I really found out about trauma healing, which is my area of real interest in the mental health space. And then from there just started using it in these, talking about trauma healing and wanting to host groups, trauma healing groups not just on Zoom but in the metaverse as well.

And it just has kind of led me now to I guess a point of chaplaincy, if you will, in this particular area with the church digital. So no, I love that all the way going all the way back to the flip cameras. You that, oh, the flip. Wasn't that a dream? Oh my gosh, that triggered so many memories back in the day of that. But you know, you're talking about augmented reality, smart glasses and you're tying this into mental health and life within and some of this. So talk to us a little bit because you're really doing some really interesting work kind of below the radar here a little bit. Share with us what you're doing with some of this technology.

Yeah, well, you know, I just as you were talking, you know, just reflecting on the flip cam and things like that, it's just amazing to me how God will use any tool you surrender for him, for his glory, like really any tool. That's why it's never, you know, it's always the user not the tools that are the problem. So for me to get into the work that I'm doing with smart glasses, this started in I guess 2016 with Google Glass. I had this idea of making a life film. I was like, how cool, because you know you had the flip cam that was a small camera and you could just like kind of record these quick videos, but I was like, how cool would it be to record your life through your own POV, like through your eyes?

So it started with Google Glass, but you know, you got a lot of heat for having a camera you were walking around and wearing at that time. It was before its time. Yeah, yeah, yeah. They had a name for people like that and it wasn't a godly name, you know. So it was just kind of like maybe I don't know. It was good to do this, but I don't know if this is going to necessarily be used to win people, but it was fun while it lasted.

So fast forward to Snapchat Spectacles being a much better price point and just still kind of able to do some of the same things. I thought during my fortieth year of life, which was in 2019, that I would record the year just as documenting the year, so to speak. But what I didn't know and found out maybe a few months in, I started looking at the footage and I started seeing behavior because you're not on camera face-wise, but your behaviors, how you make people feel, you know, your mannerisms that you don't notice, like those kind of things are on camera.

And it really started to turn more into a healing experience because I began to see ways that I was acting out that I couldn't receive criticism about from other people because I was just too strong-willed. So I would always have a comeback if they're like, "You're doing this wrong." I'm like, "And what are you doing wrong? Are you removing that log out of your eye first?" you know, I just always was kind of, and that's why it's interesting for me to be in the mental health space because I was a little rejected of it because I felt like if you're getting the word, you're being transformed. And so I almost saw mental health as something outside of God in a way. It's like you have mental health when you don't maybe go to God first. You need to kind of get help elsewhere when you could be praying or seeking out your word.

I didn't see how it was just really all intertwined until the smart glass, until my behavioral health came center stage, until I realized the hidden traumas were coming out in the video and I couldn't stop them, you know, because it was coming out of me through my own eyes and POV. And so it just kind of led to this journey which unlocked trauma healing like maybe you should join a group and I was like a group. So for me, you know, I like being in this space because I'm for the people who feel like they don't need it. I feel like God sent me in this space for the people who are like, you know, they're high performers or whatever and they just don't think there's anything wrong when they have experienced some things that have been hurtful but may be suppressed and they don't realize it's coming out for everybody else to see. They're just missing it. So the smart glasses, it turned from a year-long project to now I'm six years into recording and recording the whole decade in this way and healing every step of the way.

I mean, it's a fortunate thing, but it's unfortunate because every year I think I've gotten way better and then I'll look back at some clips and ultimately have to say, "I'm sorry, I didn't realize this before." But it just shows to me that healing is a journey.

Yeah, so you're a work in progress. That's a positive way to look at it. Yeah, and it's needed. Mental health is not apart from our relationship with God. And in fact, it's another tool that he uses to help us live this life that he died for us to have. Beautiful. So it really kind of brought it all together for me through this smart glass project.

We'll probably get more into the trauma recovery, the trauma healing here in a little bit, but you know, Stacy, you're spending a lot of time and one of the things that really impresses me by your work is the amount of work that you're doing helping people deal with grief via digital platforms and how you're counseling, available, listening to people via digital when they're dealing with things that so often has to be the idea that oh that has to be done physically but you're finding ways to do it digitally.

Do you maybe want to share a little bit about what you're learning through welcoming grief? Yeah, welcoming grief, that's the title of my ministry. But I've noticed all it takes is observing as in social media and being present and when people are sharing about just life in general, it doesn't take much if you're paying attention. It doesn't take much when someone is sharing about their life transition even. So it's not even just the death of loved ones. So that is part of it but it's also changes, transitions, the other losses that we're, I've called it the other losses of life. I mean job changes, job loss, um maybe the role that you have as maybe a mom or dad, maybe that's changed, maybe anything like that. And so when people are excited they post pictures about their kids graduating and it depends on how the attachment or the relationship I have with someone. I will reach out to them. I said, "Wow, that's exciting. How is that going for you?" It doesn't take much. That's all it is. I ask that question, then people, the floodgates open. Oh, I'm so thrilled, but I'm having a hard time. I don't know what this is going to be like. Oh, my kids going to college, away to college, so away to school, they're moving out, different things like that. So and that's just through a direct private message.

And I'm not trying to fix you. I don't think you're broken. I just think you're experiencing a life event that we don't talk about all of the emotions that we experience in those life events. And we talk about grief. What does that look like? No, it's not just mourning the loss, the physical death of someone. Maybe it's even a relationship change with someone that you care about. And it's different now. It's changed. It's took a turn. During COVID, a lot of relationships changed during COVID. So I walked through some hard times with people who had different opinions and strong opinions. And because of that the relationship changed and that was heartbreaking for a lot of people going through that. So just being present, maybe two minutes, you could scroll on your feed and you will notice you will notice life transitions, whatever people share. It's amazing what we share out in public, not even just to our friends but public sharing. And I believe it's an opportunity. It's a really a compelling opportunity to serve people in their emotions and the change and grief and loss.

Beautiful. You know, Steve Reed says right here, "Two eyes, two ears for a reason." I guess he's calling to attention intelligent design, I guess, so to speak. Only one mouth. We'd probably need to shut it more, but very good with that. Well, as we look at, you know, it's interesting. We've been trying to figure out, I've for a couple years now, three, four years, what's the role of mental health? And we've had people in the church digital, we've had people champion, kind of step into it. Megan Carter was for a season and we've done a lot of work with Mindy Caliguire with soulcare.com, alongside. And so like we've, I would say we've really toyed with the idea, but we didn't really have a clear focus on this until we really got into the place of being a digital missionary sending agency. And once we narrowed down to digital missionaries, all of a sudden that opened up a lot more clarity because now it's like we are trying to help make sure that our digital missionaries, you know, and I say these three a lot. One, we have people that are doing ministry in digital and virtual spaces and the spaces, the platforms they're on are addictive. Virtual reality is an addictive platform. Even social media, the doom scrolling is addictive. And so we're doing ministry in areas that is addictive.

Number two, we're recruiting volunteers and inviting them to do ministry in a platform that's addictive. And number three, we're doing ministry for people, we're doing ministry to people, or doing ministry, working with people that are we're seeing in digital virtual spaces, it's a much higher percentage of addiction.

And so as we, as I have to sneeze, and that's bad because if I sneeze once, I'm going to have to sneeze five times. So I'm going to shut up real quick. But really when we look at the role of mental health, of soul care towards digital missionaries and empowering them and equipping them, Stacy and I started talking about the need of a chaplain, of somebody who could come in and it's interesting like Stacy, I almost want to ask you the question, what does a chaplain do, like kind of set the stage here a little bit, for the church digital, physically, digitally, what does a chaplain actually do?

Yeah, good, yeah, good question. Both in person and digitally, chaplains are present in whether it's their immediate crisis situation or maybe it's a long-term thing that someone's facing and has a deep need for care.

In the technical in our chaplain training, we say it's to decrease arousal. Okay, I know that sounds funny, but it's to decrease the stress and minimize it.

It's not to fix. It's not to diagnose. It's not to come up with a treatment plan, but is to be present in that moment for someone so that by the end of the conversation, we could ask, "How do you feel?" And if they say, "Oh, I feel better." Or, "I feel like I have maybe tools to move forward." And it's never about I need to get over this as it is I'm helping you supporting you in that moment.

Um for and and chaplaincy work could be in various environments, hospital, um workplace chaplain, different and so for me it is really in the digital space that's my just my primary but also I serve as a chaplain in workplaces everything from a um from uh hospital uh a rehab hospital to even manufacturing plants where I'm on the manufacturing floor. I'm just present. And we say in our a lot of us, we say this is that we are present in your worst moments, life moments.

And so what I referenced earlier is uh when I see the posts on social media, some of those sound like worst day situations. And so it doesn't take much just to reach out and check in.

Um, and in person in my workplace chaplaincy, I'm literally I'm not I may be on the factory line, but I'm not having full conversations with some of these people. It's literally just, hey, checking in. How's it going? How was the holidays? When it was the holidays, I did not assume holidays were going to be this positive, great thing.

Some people, it was the worst time of year for them. And so I just come across with that just saying, "Hey, I know, uh, holidays are not always the best time of year." So, um, I'm here for you if you want to chat, if you have something to share, and that just opens the floodgates. So, and I think that's how it is even in digital space. The great thing is I I don't I'm not expecting an immediate response from people, you know, it's the expectation that they just know that I care.

And that is that's the love of God. That's the love of God. People can experience the love of God and peace and care. Um, and that they could be on the other side of the world and they won't even respond to me till the next day, you know. It just that's what I love about it about the digital space. So, uh, you know, I'm I'm hearing being there. I'm hearing active listening.

Um, I'm hearing um, you know, communication uh, being a being available. Um, El Michelle, you know, I know you've done uh, some some work centered around active listening in the metaverse. You were actually one of our speakers with the digital missionary summit talking about active listening in in the in the metaverse. So, as as you explore, you know, the idea of of being a chaplain in the metaverse, a chaplain to virtual reality and and beyond, what does that what does that even start to look like for you?

Yeah. Well, kind of like what Stacy said, she hit the nail on the head just about being there to listen. Listening is like um very key especially in the area that I'm most passionate about in the area of trauma healing. Most of it is about talking out the pain already lodged inside the hearts of people.

A lot of times, you know, people are walking around and especially, you know, behind our avatars, we like to say in the metaverse, behind every avatar is a real person. You know, just like behind the keyboard, behind the screen, wherever people are, those are people that are there for the most part. I know we have AI agents and all of those things, but even people behind kind of like masterminding these things, it's still people behind it and a lot of people are hurting. Even the pandemic was was traumatic for a lot of people. A lot of loss experience, a lot of hopelessness and helplessness at that time um of of what we could do and sometimes grief uh could be traumatic if it's sudden, you know, people unexpected and things like that. So, for me, you know, there are three main questions that we always ask um in the trauma healing arena and there are three simple questions, but if you listen, it helps people begin to process their pain from another part of their brain.

It begins their process of healing and walking through um what may have taken place. And those three questions are just simply what happened, how did it make you feel and what was the hardest part of that for you could be a whole discussion of helping the person process the moment that caused trauma in their lives. We find out, we found, you know, Bara did a study on trauma in the church and pastors and, you know, many of them responded. I I can't pull stats right off my head. I'm like, what is the stat? It was more pastors than not that said lots of members in their congregations were suffering from trauma and many of them felt ill equipped to handle these things.

But there is a way even starting with not rushing but just simply listening. And what that does take is time. It does take you know allocating the space to do that. And it does take a heart of care, of just genuine care, not just to keep membership or to be perceived as nice, a nice person, but just a genuine heart of care for people who uh have faced some really tough things.

So for me, listening is the key to that because like Stacy said, whether they're writing it out or in the metaverse being such an immersive space. I mean, unlike the video you do on a screen, it's the embodiment thing. It's like you, you know, you actually being there. And in a lot of ways, I'm preaching to the choir, but the immersive nature of the platform feels like you're in person having a one-to-one conversation.

Which is why I thought what a great idea would be to start trauma healing groups in there because sometimes people don't want you to be associated with their in real life persona. So then you see them at the store and you're like, "Yeah, that's Jim. We're in a group together. He's going through a lot." you know, love to have that anonymity that avatars kind of bring to the equation, but you're still sharing real time sharing the deep parts of your pain, which we found in the metaverse, people are more inclined to share more than they would in an in-person interaction just because they kind of have a little bit of a barrier.

But what it takes even in those spaces sometimes I've attempted to say all right I'm going to do this group and we have these benchmarks we want to hit and almost ten out of ten times it's just about people having a space that's safe and that's caring and that's really they feel the love of God where they can share what's on their heart they say is the most has brought the most healing to them. Then they'll say, "Now what else is in your curriculum?" But the fact that you will stand here and listen to me without rushing me, without trying to preach to me, not trying to fix people, not listening to fix, you know, or listening to get your fix, but listening out of genuine care for people just I found to bring so much healing, especially in the metaverse.

Yeah. Where it's almost like the real world space, you know. It's It's so funny to me. No, I appreciate it. It's so funny to me that uh people put on the virtual reality avatar mask and then they're completely transparent. But so often in physical space where they're they're completely seen, that's when they want to hide. It's it's it's like they they need to hide if they can be seen, but if they cannot be seen, there's no reason to hide.

And and I love how through the trauma healing in the metaverse uh and actually this is some of the mantra behind why uh digital mission work is so effective because we're able to engage with people digitally and even virtually in in ways that you know the physical church in in physical missions just doesn't doesn't have the the luxury and and the benefit of. Um so uh as you both look at this and by the way I I love your your three questions there.

Nicole highlighted them in chat. So, let let me just throw them up here real quick to reinforce what happened. Number two, how did it make you feel? Uh, number three, what was the hardest uh for you? And of course, uh, Nicole Howard says, "Hey, Stacy and El Michelle." Uh, by the way, Stacy's here on a Tuesday as opposed to being being stuck at work. So, hey Stacy, like we see you. That that was that's good. Glad you're here. Um, talk to talk to us a little bit here.

Um, as Stacy, just to to to kick us off here a little bit as you look at, okay, chaplain, as you look at, you know, listening to people, as you look at what you're seeing inside the church digital communities, you're no stranger to the church digital. You've been around here for a while. What are like what what are some of the the challenges and opportunities we're facing uh just in general like what what are some issues that you're seeing?

Well, I'm finding and maybe this is pretty basic across the board in digital work ministry is that people are feeling alone to begin with. A lot of times they come to TCD because they're looking for community themselves. Uh maybe for their own maybe the initial was to be connected with others who are in the digital space and and whether it's a church or missionary or anything else but they're already feeling alone but when they join the community they're they also are finding out oh I need support and I need care whatever I'm going through and so um I'm finding that some people because there is maybe not quite the support and needed where you know u and maybe they're involved with a in-person church that they're looking for other people to maybe share ideas but in the sharing ideas within TCD you're finding oh there is support and care provided as well you know the there's a prayer channel and people dropping their prayer requests in there and and even though it's across it's across the world but there's always someone that's going to respond with emoji to say, oh, a heart or praying hands to say like, I see you. I'm reading this and I'm praying for you in this moment.

And um with when it comes to chaplaincy work, while that is part of it as well, there are opportunities to serve people if they want care than um more than just the opportunity of with the community in general that we are perhaps we could be a person of support to you. You know, we're chaplaincy work is not like we've El Michelle mentioned, we're not we're not looking to to fix you or or uh come up with a treatment steps. It's not clinical. It's just present. Yeah. It's just to be to be present. And the end of most my conversations, I'll ask, you know, how do you feel? How do you feel now? as you did when in the beginning of this conversation and maybe what's a practical step moving forward in this not to get over it not to just stop your feelings but maybe moving a practical step in the next moving forward in that direction and I think that's an opportunity for us not just as a chap those of us with the label chaplain but how we can support one another in this in the digital space in TCD in this community we can learn.

You know, maybe it's it's about equipping others on how to be present for each other, not just maybe in the people you serve in the digital space, but how about how how we serve each other in TCD?

That's right. Yeah. How does that reconcile with with you, El Michelle? especially as you're thinking about, you know, ministry of some of what you're seeing in the metaverse and some of the people uh that that you've you've encountered uh in in VR and in other spaces.

Um what what are some of the needs and challenges they're facing? Um I think kind of like what we said, just being heard in general, also um having to hide, you know, hide behind maybe being a high performer. I'll never forget I was um in a church in the metaverse and a man came up for prayer and after we prayed he said thank you.

He said, "You know, in real life, I'm a marine biologist and I couldn't be as vulnerable as I was in this group of people because of in his mind what he did and in some people's mind having, you know, mental health concerns that showing or being a sign of weakness even."

You know, my husband is a chaplain in the military. So we deal, uh, with this, you know, kind of all the time, like you have this persona that you're presenting when really you're kind of hurting inside.

So we're seeing a lot of people who need to be heard, are tired of hiding because they know that this is just—it's it's really coming to a head now. You know, like they're not going to be able to hide anymore. They don't feel like they have a place to go. So then what is the next step?

So them having like this kind of outlet helps keep them on a path of hope. And I was just thinking about something Stacy said how people are lonely even though we have more networks and more media, just more things that we can get involved with on our phones and otherwise more than ever before. But a lot of people are numb to being empathetic, to caring. Everything is just so numbing. You could even, you know, people might even pass. It's just like, "Yeah, RIP to that," and then it's "Happy birthday to this," and the next post. It's just—it is the way life is. It's the circle of life.

But I think having chaplain or even people as missionaries who are not numb, who are empathetic, who are awake to things hurting beyond the few seconds it takes to scroll, who follow up the next day—okay, this happened to you yesterday. They're not just like, "Oh, well, let's get it popping for today. What's up?" No, they're mindful, but they also don't keep you bound to that place. Maybe you are now moving forward. So they don't just keep you there yet. You remember where you were now. You know, they're able to journey along with you.

And I think that there's a real absence of that just on platforms and networks in general just because of the nature of the game, right? So when you do find a place or a people who are awake to the fact that this might have hurt a little bit more, you still might be hurting or it's difficult for you to process that or you know you need someone to talk to even though you are the president of said company. You know, it's refreshing. And I feel like that's really in this moment, I'm just thinking that's what Jesus really wants for us to be like a fresh cup of water in the midst of all this real dryness that's out there. It's just becoming really dry. Even though it looks like there's a lot going on, it's just making people harder. And so I think when we come into the equation and our heart is a little bit softer and we're a little bit more in tune to people as God is showing us things and people in tune to us. I remember Stacy asked me one day or she—somebody how they were doing and I was there and I just told her that was profound. Like now it's profound to ask someone how they're doing and really mean it, you know.

And so I just think to answer your question in a very long way because, you see, I like to go around the bush a little bit. Um, people want to be heard for real because they have platforms to post but they don't have people to process with. You know, they have platforms to post but not people to process with.

Yeah, it's interesting. Judy, uh, Judy says this. Hey, Judy. Uh, that almost echoes exactly what you're saying. Safe space, caring and sharing, feeling the love of God, active listening, uh, not preaching and not fixing. It's interesting. Um, I actually think that you digitally, and this does fly countercultural, Judy, digitally it's all about creating content. And so it's all about talking, not about listening.

And so a lot of what we're describing here through the church digital, it is countercultural. It's not so much about you talking. Uh, it's not about the perfect forty-minute sermon. It's much more about listening, using more question marks than periods. And for love of God, never use an exclamation mark. Uh, and recognizing how to do that in digital and virtual space. Uh, and so, uh, definitely love this idea that we're starting to scratch here. Judy, thanks for sharing that. I appreciate that.

Oh my gosh, Whitebeard's even coming on. Nicole is building on that. Uh, Judy and the concept of brave space for youth and young adults. Um, here I just always want to—anytime Tom says something, Tom's smart. Plus he looks like, um, literally a monk. Uh, because that's his—his Tom is the perfect impersonation of the handle he has created for himself. Whitebeard punk monk. Have you looked at his photo? Just saying. Uh, I've had so many people in life who talk about mental health but have never taken time uh to check on me. Um, Tom, yeah, Tom. I love that. Tom, we—Stacy and I were literally talking about you an hour ago, so you're checked on. Um, yeah, I, you know, very good.

All right, moving on. I now have found new people who care about me and ask. Uh, and Nicole saying, uh, that is so true. Forget about the aftercare the day after uh the traumatic incident. Uh, uh, Stacy, you're shaking your head yes, sir. You got anything to add on that?

Yeah, yeah. I want to add to that because in chaplain—in chaplaincy training, we go through days of training of debriefing or putting people in groups, things that may have happened with the whole group. And it's not just in that moment, right? It is continuing the conversation. And if someone wants to, uh, you know, follow up, we'll ask, "Well, do you—would you like follow-up?" We always ask that. We don't assume that everyone wants that. It could be so traumatic they don't want to even talk about it yet. And so we just—it's when you're present with someone, that's something to think about in that. I want to go back to what Elm Michelle said because this is so compelling when you said earlier about, um, it's not about trying to fix other people and it's not trying to get your fix to fix people or something like that. Say that. Can you say that again?

Yeah, I said, you know, when we're listening to people, we're not listening to fix them or get our fix. You know, it's almost like I'm listening to you to, you know, absorb the trauma you've had, then I could get my preach on about the trauma you've had and then I can feel like a better person because this has been my help for today. So I've gotten my fix for today. So good. So good. Like, what is that? You know, so I've gotten a fix. Now I'm on to the next person. What happened to you? It's just—it's this never-ending cycle. But the—it's all the motivation is not right because if we just really wanted to have a listening ear.

I remember once, uh, it was after the pandemic someone had, um, a network was just like, you know, you can book just a time where we're going to listen to whatever idea you have. I was like, really? And it—it wasn't—they they put out there we're not going to use your idea or anything. We're just going to give you an opportunity to talk it through and we're going to listen and we're going to ask you questions about your idea to get you to process it better. It was like the best thirty-minute Zoom I've ever been on. No one—I didn't feel rushed. I knew my time. Didn't feel rushed. Didn't feel like they were like, "Yeah, we thought of that before." Nothing. They were just genuinely there to listen. And they said, "If you don't have anything to say and you just want someone on here just looking, we'll do that, too." And I think it was their idea of helping people through the pandemic. But maybe we need to get back to that—just doing a listening session for people.

I want to know more about that. Let's—without motive, that offline. No motive. I want to know more, you know, no getting our fix, no trying to fix.

Well, I think we're doing a good job of talking about how to maybe care for self—is isn't the right word, but care for a generation, care for like those that are underneath us. We need to be better active listeners. Um, but by doing digital missionary, um, and we want to see digital missionaries multiply, there's a lot of scaling of these ideas, um, where it's not just, you know, we need to be active listening but we need to train others on how to do active listening so that they can be effective.

Yeah, the church digital needs to scale, but also individual missionaries need these ideas to scale out beyond just them. And so, um, what does that even look like? How do we maybe start to see some of these ideas scale out?

Oh, I'll speak to that. I—there is always opportunity to learn and even as I train other chaplains, I'm learning from them. But I think it is really important for us to provide opportunities to learn and when I say learn, it's not classroom, just classroom setting. So Elm and what you're doing in the metaverse, it's interactive. It's not just, "Oh, I'm going to tell you what to do," but practitioners—I call us practitioners of this. This is not just about, "Oh, writing my notes in my notebook here. Got it down. Oh, I have these all even digitally." But no, why don't we—like we talk about labs, you know, uh, in education. "Oh, I'm going to the lab." Okay, that means you're going to be practicing it, putting it into practice. So I think that is key to, um, active listening—learning how to do it and then immediately trying it out on each other, right? So that, hey, that's the place to make all those mistakes. That's the place to keep learning in that. And, um, sometimes people say, "I'm so afraid of saying the wrong thing." Well, then don't say anything, right? Right. I mean, just listen. And like you're saying, go ahead.

Practical being out there, you know, seeing it model. I know, uh, in trauma healing, we have where you can go through a group yourself and then learn how to do groups for others. So, let's say you're like, "Oh, I'm interested in learning more about this trauma healing." We work with the American Bible Society on this. And uh, what I think is the best part of it is then I say, "Yeah, okay, it starts with going through a healing group yourself and that's actually a part of your training to then be able to facilitate groups." So when I went in, I already knew I was like, "Yeah, I am interested in this and I know I'm going to want to carry it forward." But I was so blessed that the first few days were just me going through a healing group myself and receiving what I needed. It's like I got a chance to put my mask on first and then go out and try to help other people using the airplane analogy. You know what I mean? And so it is awesome for us to be partakers first and then know how to continue it on, you know.

So I know at least in the trauma healing space there's opportunity for you to learn more even if you're like, "I've never think I've ever had trauma." Now you would be able to be more trauma-aware of people around you who may be dealing with some things and you just thought they are way off. Sometimes but you'll be better able to understand what's kind of like driving those things. So I know we we do have opportunities and we'll open them—we hope here in the future for you to learn more about these things, go through these things yourself and then be able to share it with others.

Yeah, I mean, there is a little bit. It was funny—Stacy and I were talking earlier today and, and, and I kind—you know, if you know me, I say things without like filter and I just—it's off the top of my head and, and, and it my mouth gets me—

In trouble a lot. Ask every teacher I ever had in school. Um, and and I was like, "Yeah, I mean, Stacy, basically, we we want people to smoke what they're selling, right?" You know, to actually do the stuff that we're, you know, and and and and that face that she just made was exactly the face that she made at me when I when I said it. And I was like, "Okay, right. Um, I'll go ahead and say it just to say it, but um maybe I'll get in trouble." So, if if you have any hate mail on smoke what you're selling, go ahead and send that to Stacy at stacy@thechurch.digital. She would love to have a conversation with you centered around that. But we are, um, you know, there's some interesting things and we're wrapping up uh some of the details on this right now.

Uh, but um we're talking right now with an organization based out of South Africa called Project Exodus. Now uh there's lots of different Project Exoduses out there. I always put this disclaimer. Some of the Project Exodus organizations are good. Some of the Project Exodus organizations are bad. And and chances are you're not familiar with this one. This is kind of a below the radar one. Uh, and so what Project Exodus is is it's an organization that's really centered around helping um people, churches in our context, digital missionaries understand how to how to uh help people that are dealing with trauma, dealing with crisis, uh dealing with sexual addiction type scenarios. And and and one of the things that that I love about this approach of what they do is they are very intentional towards um not just um "oh you need counseling, let's get you connected to a counselor and you can pay that individual $150, you know, US dollars uh uh per session." Um, instead, you know, a lot of the the training that they're supplying is based around volunteers or based around non-educated, non-clinical people and and and helping empower them to be uh more effective um in in our context, the mission work that they're doing.

And and so we are, we've been talking with them for a while and uh we're excited to maybe wrap up some uh last minute details probably in the next couple weeks. If a major announcement were to be made, that would likely be made at the um the town hall meeting on May 20th. Just saying. So stay tuned for for more information about that. But it's it's really about equipping normal people to handle, you know, some of the initial conversations.

Uh we we had a situation, you know, God bless this church. I'm not going to say what church it was, but they had I don't know, three or four suicidal situations over the span of a month and and like the the the pastors were exhausted. Like they could not handle any any more of it. And you know, as I was talking to them, I was like, "Hey, wouldn't it be great if like you had volunteers that were in position that that could help cover some of this responsibility so that that you didn't feel like you had to carry the weight of all this on your own?" "Oh, Jeff. Yeah, that would be incredible." And so, this is some of the things that we're laying the the groundwork for now.

You know, even facilitating and training uh recovery groups, you know, some of some of the stuff I want I would love Elma Michelle to lean into, you know, specifically uh stuff that that she's doing um uh with the um the the trauma recovery. Uh but even on how to handle other situations uh creating but the thing that I'm most excited about as we've talked with this organization Project Exodus the idea of creating a a healthy Christ-centered recovery culture uh within the the the the church digital.

So interesting to me how um you know recovery almost is like a red-headed stepchild among some church cultures where it's like oh yeah that's those people over there we don't we don't talk about them. Oh you you got an issue you just go go hang out o over there instead of embracing the fact that we all got issues at at some level or or not.

And so y'all we're going to be leaning into this in the in the in the months and and years to come. And and so look for an a more intentional uh announcement on this soon. And uh probably some beta groups even even rolling uh this summer as we we are um we're excited about this road ahead. And and the deeper that we get into digital and virtual community, the deeper that your ministry will get into digital and virtual community, the more necessary, the more of a necessity understanding Christ-centered recovery and how to deal with trauma and crisis is going to be, you know. So, I've I was talking recently with a a pastor friend of mine and he's like, "Yeah, Jeff, this is the stuff that we don't literally this is a executive pastor at a at a mega church here in Miami." "Yeah, Jeff, this is the stuff that uh we don't deal with on Sunday morning. Like, Sunday mornings, it's it's not it's so Stacy probably had one of my favorite quotes of the day.

Um and and I'm going to I'm going to butcher it, but pastoring is is to sheep what what uh what was it? What was the line, Stacy?"

"Oh, yeah. Give it give it to me. Pastors Yeah. Pastors tend to sheep or care for sheep and chaplain care for goats."

"Wow. And I was I was like, 'Oh my gosh.' Cuz cuz pastors it's pretty pastors it pastors it's easy. Pastors, you know, you get your nice system running and everything lines up. Uh but you know, chaplain, missionaries, you are much more at the edge. And uh that goat goat ain't as pretty. And that goat ain't nearly as easy. And that goat will kick your butt given the opportunity.

And so, uh, yeah, sit in that one. Enjoy that tonight. Pastors are Anyway, that that's good. I'm not saying it's tattoo worthy, but it's it's, uh, it's it's up there. It's close."

"Yeah, that was good. Especially since we have a goat culture, greatest of all time, you know, you know, and Oh, yeah. Wow. That just took it to a whole other level. That's fascinating. Yeah, we got So, you know, Yeah. So, anyway, we gotta we we it just makes me think a lot of people can put on their sheep suits for Sunday, but be goats during the week like and not maybe want to be, but they don't know how to be fully transformed. So, it's good to have all us, you know."

"Good. Yeah. Yeah. Amen. Well, hey, let's um let's talk a little bit practical cuz there are some Hey, you know what I said? There's going to be some announcements coming soon. Uh Stacy, Elm Michelle, others behind the scenes are aggressively um working uh towards some solutions. You're going to hear more about this in in the days and weeks to come.

Uh, but there is something that that we're working on right now that that's going to help. And there it's already in place, but we're going to kind of publicly launch this thing or or kind of fine-tune it a little bit today. And and I'm talking about in our Discord in in our WhatsApp communities. We've got a a channel or a group called um Missionary Care, right? Missionary Care. And and and so um Stacy, do you want to talk a little bit about what what we want to see and what the aim of that missionary care is?"

"Yeah, it's good. Yeah. Yeah. The the aim is so it's a community um but it's a way for actually us to practice not fixing people. It is a place where we are listening to what people post or what I post even any of us that those of us that are serving in the digital space that maybe there's a challenge um and it's not so much about how do I do this but it is how do I I need I need care in what I'm facing. So it's it's almost like those of us that are reading them, we can practice our listening skills in that. It's not quick to respond. Well, have you heard of this ministry? Have you been a part of this group or things like that? It is it is being present to someone.

So, um, so if someone says their loved one, um, just died and they're just heartbroken and they post that in and in in the missionary care, well, you know what? How about just a response to say, 'I'm sorry, that sounds really heavy. I'm praying for you.' Or even post a prayer in response to that. Sometimes I'm literally writing typing out my prayer and it the prayer itself is just a prayer of support not to say uh um Lord I pray that this person um goes to this group or have you heard of this group you know those kind of things that because that's that is a step to try to fix someone's pain and heaviness of what's weighing on them. So, um, yes. Yes, there may be opportunities for that if you want feel like God's leading you to to say something else that that maybe it's a direct message.

You know, that that the community itself really is to be supportive of someone in whatever they're they're experiencing. Um, it is not about us to give them um all these resources, right? There may be a time for that later. Maybe personally in a personal if you have relational equity with someone that that may you may be able to it might be appropriate to send a private message to them. But if it's someone you don't don't know I mean how many people Jeff? What's that how many people are in the WhatsApp and Discord?"

"I mean we've got we've got over 600 maybe close to 700 in Discord maybe 400 almost 500 in WhatsApp. I mean there there's some overlap, but we've got a significant number of missionaries um in in both aspects and and so um El Michelle will be hanging out in Discord and uh and Stacy will be primarily focused in in in WhatsApp and um now it was so funny. It was in initially the plan was Leighton is is giving me Discord is 670 right now. So yeah, we're very close to 700 there. Last I saw WhatsApp, WhatsApp was 452, I think. And so it's and it's been been growing. Actually, we've been kicking a bunch of spam bots out, so it may actually be down, but uh it's hard it's hard to tell in WhatsApp. WhatsApp's being WhatsApp. The um but what was interesting was that um WhatsApp was I had thought going to be primarily global and and there is a lot of global in there but there's a lot of US influence in in WhatsApp and also at the same time we're starting to see a separation of the two communities where initially when we launched WhatsApp it was both it was people in WhatsApp and Discord at the same time and now we're seeing distinct users in WhatsApp completely separate from the people that are in Discord. It's not like people are double populating or double existing in the communities. They're picking one cuz that's the goal. Like I I don't I don't want you to feel like you're having to carry the burden of of being in both. But the people that will hang out in Discord are not the people that want to hang out in WhatsApp or vice versa almost. It's it's uh two really completely different platforms.

Um, but our our goal is is to start to create an asynchronous community that would allow for um you freedom to to post some of some of these thoughts."

"Yeah. Okay. Now, you can, you know, post uh prayer requests, but often times what you would pray for and, you know, something missionary where it's it's open to yourself, it's it's two different things. And so we didn't want just to isolate missionary prayer into prayer request as much as to highlight it as as something else. And then there's, you know, down the road there's going to be much more that we're going to get into as uh the church digital continues to develop uh more equipping partners um develop uh what mobilization looks like as our outpost develop and move forward. And so we're really excited about what the future holds uh for our our digital missionaries at at a at a global scale.

But uh what you're seeing now is is literally those first steps in creating a healthy culture. Uh because I I I don't know much uh but I know that culture eats strategy for breakfast and and I would rather have have a healthy uh as a as a as a strategist I would rather"

Have a healthy culture than a kicking strategy, and so we're going to take this time now to start to build that culture out, while recognizing the importance of recovery, of active listening, of recognizing trauma and crisis, and all of these things because it's just going to get more and more in this situation.

Barna rolled out a stat, and I'll close with this, but Barna rolled out a stat. Um, I'm blanking on numbers right now, but the punchline to the stat was that Gen A and Gen Z, there's a small little uptick where Gen A and Gen Z is starting to re-engage in spirituality and is coming back to God and is starting to see Jesus and look for Jesus more than they had in previous years. But what was interesting in that equation is that they are not going to church buildings.

And so the generation has a small little uptick, but the brick and mortar buildings flatlined or even down in some of the categories. And the takeaway from this is, um, actually Steve was blowing me up on, I think WhatsApp, because he's like, "Well, doesn't that mean that digital missionaries, this is our time?" Yes, that is what that means. Digital missionaries doing something different to reach someone different. There's now an opportunity digitally to engage, to reach that. And so understanding some of this healthy approaches is going to make us far more able to connect and engage with that, which is why that culture is so important.

And so ladies, thank you very much for the stream here. Um, I love it. Elm Michelle, as we're wrapping up, any closing thoughts on your side?

Um, I'm glad we're here. I'm glad we're here. Um, glad that we took this time to listen to each other. Glad everybody who's on the feed is on the feed. Um, and really big goal for me, or big ask, or big prayer, big want, would be for missionary care to become a part of everyone's mission or thought process, just a little bit, you know, as we're interacting. Not just like, "Yeah, go over there," or like the pastor said, "We don't really deal with that on Sunday," but having a heart to deal with it on whatever day, you know, in a way incorporating this in some way.

Active listening doesn't have to have a ministry name on it. It's just being a human being who empathizes with the people around them and recognizing people not as the machines that we operate with our expertise, but seeing people as the people behind it, you know, and just being cognizant of that. That would be my big prayer, that this would become a part of everyone's thinking, even if it's just a little bit. Doesn't have to be what you do all the time, but just now taking a step back and maybe listening a little bit more, which is why I know I could keep talking on and on because no one's going to want to cut me off because we're active listening right now.

No, but seriously, yeah, you may be taking advantage of the process. Let's just say we were trying to wrap up, but we're not going to rush her because we're listening to her. But no, seriously, just trying to not be numb to it anymore, but being more awake to the fact that if someone is in your presence, it really is for a reason. So kind of giving into that a little bit more than our own agendas and things like that. But that's it. That's all I would say as a final word.

We hope that we will inspire everyone to walk in these ways. Love it. Stacy, any closing thoughts on your side?

Sure, yeah. The invitation I have is inviting God to speak to you and listen. How to be a minister of presence. That is really essentially what chaplain, when you say chaplain, yes, I have that title, but no, as messengers of God's love and care, it is about being present, being a minister of presence. And so I invite you to pray about that. How can you be present for others in whatever they're facing? And then just a practical, real practical thing about listening more than talking.

Um, my mentor, shout out to Gail J. Yandelle, my mentor, top of mentor. She said, "Some people just do this when they're listening, you know, like you can't see it, but you know, putting your just your one finger over your mouth when you're listening to someone, it literally keeps you from talking." And I thought, "Wow, that is super practical, you know, or something that's just going to prevent me from talking, but really focused on listening to someone." Um, so that I don't fall into the temptation to speak when someone is just trying to be heard and expressing themselves, because that's what it is. People want to be seen, heard, and understood.

That's so cool. Just kind of yes, I'm deep in thought. Okay, I'm pensive. I'm listening. I always thought this meant you're hiding something, you know? It's like that was like the 20, 30 years ago, right? It's like if you're doing something, it's like you're hiding. What are you hiding something? It's like the body language for that. But which is why I kind of do this. I'm standing and so I kind of like, you know, put my arms this way, but it's like now I look like I'm ticked off, and which I'm not. And so yeah, I've kind of trying to figure that out. But uh, very, very good. It's interesting. Gail, we'll uh, we'll give that a shot a little bit. And uh, you know, Elm Michelle, just wanted to make sure you got that down. Very good. And she pulls that off so much better than I do. That's so good. Yes. Cool. Yeah, yeah. So much cooler. Cool. I'm just the bald dork with a beard. She, she has, you both of you all got the look.

All right. Hey, we're gonna wrap. Uh, it's so funny. My Andy keeps texting me. I'm three minutes late for a meeting with him. And so I gotta go. We're gonna land the plane. For Stacy, for Elm Michelle, this is Jeff at the Church Digital. Find both of them in WhatsApp and Discord for any more questions with them and TCD's WhatsApp and Discord. They'd love to connect with you. And uh, but hey, more coming soon. Don't forget about the town hall May 20th. Thanks y'all. Have a good one. Talk to you later. Peace. Bye. Bye. Thank you.