EP313 - Digital & Mental Health - Depression, suicide and crisis

Asking someone about their thoughts and about their plans is not going to put the idea in their head and then get them to go do it. It's actually going to get it out of their head. They're going to get to now say it out loud. And when something is said out loud, if it's mentionable, it's manageable. So if we can get them to say it out loud, then we can do something about it. Welcome to the Church Digital Podcast. Through this podcast, we'll talk about the technological innovations within the church, but more than tech for tech itself, we'll address deeper questions. Is disciple making possible digitally? How should we approach the digital mission field? Can a biblically grounded church operate in digital space?

Oh, and where does the metaverse and artificial intelligence fit into all of this? Whether you're a big or small church, the Church Digital's goal is to help churches like yours learn to be a multiplying church digitally and physically. And now here's your host, Jeff Reed. Okay, so we had some issues up front. I want to apologize. It's Jeff here at the Church Digital. We're doing episode 313, I think. We're going out of order with this one, but it's cool. And I just want to publicly acknowledge we're broadcasting this live on Twitch. And I am way out of my league in many different ways. First off, the intelligence of the people in this podcast with this interview, I'm going to step back because I'm just way beyond myself.

And I've been miscommunicating a whole bunch of stuff to other people about the Twitch broadcast, and people are showing up at wrong links and forgetting to do things. And if you are a virtual assistant who's bored and looking to volunteer for an organization that's desperate for organizational help, hi, my name's Jeff. We need to talk. So feel free to reach out to me, Jeff, at thechurch.digital. I'll even give you my cell phone. That's how desperate I am, 484-324-8724. Virtual assistants just looking to help out a guy who really could use some help, 484-324-8724. I'd love to talk with you. All right. So, hey, let's get into the conversation here with the Church Digital. We are heading into this conversation.

We're still doing this season, Digital Mental Health. We've had so many deep conversations. You know, even sitting here in this chair, I don't think that I could reflect back and list all of the different perspectives as we're digging into, A, doing ministry in this space, and B, protecting ourselves as we're doing ministry in this space. And digital is a very dark area, especially the more that you lean into a digital community. And not just broadcasting one-way communications, but actually listening to the people we're doing ministry with. And so, as we're heading into today's topic, it was, you know, I remember Megan Carter is on here co-hosting the season with us. This was a late topic edition.

Like, we had everything set up, and, you know, Megan and I, you know, I think I was like, Megan, we really, we need to hit this topic. We need to get into this because this is a big deal, and it's often missed and ignored. And it gets into the idea of suicide, of suicidal prevention, of dealing with people that are suicidal, of, you know, people overly depressed, depression, people in crisis mode, in crisis situations. You know, I can remember, Megan, I was telling somebody just recently, I was talking about, I guess maybe yesterday in an open office. Like, there was a situation maybe a year ago where we had, this is back in the Digital Church Network days, but we had three churches that were connected to the Digital Church Network that were dealing with people's suicidal situations over the course of a weekend.

Like, it was just this massive, all-encompassing, and everybody was talking to each other within the network, trying to figure out what to say and how to handle and who to call and what to, and, you know, in the moment of chaos in the middle of that, I'll be honest, I didn't have a lot of the answers. And so, you know, we worked through the situation as best we could, and as far as I know, everybody, you know, made it through healthily. But it became apparent to me that, you know, we don't necessarily have the answers, and I don't know that there was a healthy situation in that. And so, as we're heading into this episode, you know, almost, I feel like I need to put a disclaimer on here. Like, even as we're having this conversation, we're not, you know, mental health experts on this.

And as we're talking about suicide prevention and how to deal with these situations, I mean, there's obviously, there's a lot of risk in this. And we talked about if you're doing digital ministry in these digital communities, you're going to have to get dirty. And as a result of that, it's not clean like Sunday morning church is. And so, know that these are difficult situations, and we're giving advice, not expertise, in how to handle this. And so, what happens in these situations and how they're handled, first and foremost, pray through it and ask God to lead you into it. And then secondly, maybe lean on some of these experiences that we're going to be talking about to help guide you on that way.

And so, hopefully that makes sense. We might even lean back on that along the way. But Megan, Megan Carter from Church Anywhere, thank you for jumping on this season with us and leaning in. But let me get into the guest here. We are blessed to have Jeff Vanderstelt on the podcast. I was excited. You know, as soon as we started talking about Megan and I started talking about this topic, Jeff's name just popped in my head. It was like we got to get Jeff Vanderstelt on to talk about this. And once again, the disclaimer, Jeff's not an expert in this. But he is someone who I've had conversations with, who has had, you know, some powerful stories, some powerful experiences, and has dealt with this firsthand.

And so, as we're leaning into the idea of ministering to people and dealing with people that are on the brink, I really felt like Jeff was the guy to come in to have this conversation to help us, A, figure out how to do this. And then, you know, Megan and I will probably lean into how to take some of these ideas and apply them into these situations, digital situations. And so, Megan, Jeff, thanks for jumping on here. You know, Jeff, you're with, actually, just even to open up a little bit, you're with Saturate, and that's an incredible thing. And, you know, we were talking earlier about 180 Discipleship and the book of that that I know Exponential has been running with a lot this year. Do you maybe want to just introduce yourself and who you are and just maybe give some background to some of these ideas?

Yeah, definitely. Thank you. It's so good to be with you all. I live in Seattle. I have been planting churches for quite some time and helped lead a family of churches called SOMA. But my full-time work now is Saturate, which really exists to help people start and strengthen Jesus-centered movements in cities all around the world and really help the church partner together in all its forms and expressions to do that. I think one of the reasons why I'm on this conversation, which we'll spend more time on, is both personal experience, as you said, Jeff, but also a deep, deep commitment to make sure that our disciple-making strategies include emotional health. And we really understand the significance of attachment to God and people in ways that are transformative.

And so this is a really important conversation because I think if we don't get this right, even the kinds of followers of Jesus that we build are going to be incredibly broken in both their own life but also in the way they bring that expression to other people. So when we talk about saturation of a city, Jesus saturating a place, we say you've got to work together in prayer, collaborate on prayer, collaborate on disciple-making, collaborate on health, emotional health, leader health, collaborate on serving the city, and collaborating on starting new kingdom expressions. And the leader, the disciple-making and leader health are almost always the weakest part of every strategy when I walk into a city or to a church that they have underestimated how much they need to work on that.

So I'm glad to be here to talk about this with you guys. All right. So we're streaming live at this point with Jeff, who just had a heartfelt interview, you know, an introduction talking into this. If you're watching on Twitch, I finally flipped the switch up. Seriously, it's been a hellacious couple of days. It's been awesome. God's doing some incredible stuff, but it's been drinking from the fire hydrant all day long. And so we're getting into this conversation with Jeff Vanderstelt. If you want to see the introductions, go watch it on demand. That's more fun. But let's lean into this conversation as we're really digging into suicide, depression, crisis mode, and how to do ministry in the space.

For those watching online, just a disclaimer, we're not experts in this. And so understand that we're talking about our past experiences towards that. You know, I would encourage you to open every opportunity in prayer as you're heading into these situations and see what God does in the midst of that. Use these conversations as maybe a guide to maybe influence and follow how the Spirit leads. And so Megan, who is the architect, I'm not saying brainchild anymore. I'm saying architect, who is that's much better. Right, Megan? Yeah. Who's really the architect of this. Megan, help us get started here. What do we need to dig into as we're looking at this sensitive topic? No, I've loved this whole mental health series we've been doing.

And I just thought about it as you guys were talking is we've talked a lot in the past couple episodes about kind of ourself. Like we talked about the inner critic. We talked about isolation, solitude. You know, we've talked about all these different things. And then now this is like, okay, boots on the ground, whether it's in a physical or digital space. What do we do when there's crisis? What do we, we've like prepared ourselves for this moment. So what do we do? And I think that's a big thing that we'll get into today. And it's, it's a tough one. Like you said, it's not an easy conversation. A lot of these conversations are not easy. I've had to learn how to not like put my own thoughts, kind of just put them aside of like what I thought things, you know, conversations were supposed to be when you're dealing with somebody who is in such a dark place.

And I really had to just find ways to have that conversation without feeling like I was going to make something happen. Like if I asked a certain question or if I said something, like if it was going to make something, you know, happen or be, yeah, just go south. And so it's one of those things that you want to prepare yourself as much as you can. And I think this conversation is going to be great for that. I would also just advocate for having other people around you or professionals or, you know, hotlines, all kinds of different things in your back pocket for these type of situations. Um, so just kind of that, another disclaimer on the top of this, but, um, I would love Jeff just to talk, this is getting really confusing cause there's two Jeffs and it's going to, but You call me JV if you want.

That makes me varsity and you junior varsity. I'm not, I'm not comfortable with that, man. I was like, I realized that right. As I said, I was like, okay, well, it's all right. No, but, um, I would love to hear just, you talked a little bit about having some personal experiences, um, or maybe just like the connection that is connected to mental health or suicide prevention. Um, I would just love to hear a little bit of that and then let's dive in a little deeper into this topic. Yeah. Well, thank you. Uh, first of all, personally, uh, I've, I went, I've gone through two seasons where I was facing suicidal, suicidal ideation on a, on a regular basis. One was when I was 33 and in a pressure cooker of a job where there was a ton of fear, shame.

I would even say spiritual abuse, uh, that I was working under. And, uh, it was like a daily idea that I I'd wake up daily and wonder if it's worth staying, you know, and I had a newborn baby, married, just, you know, seven years at that time or eight years at that time. And, um, but just my wife would basically had to change the bedsheets every, every night, every morning, because I'd sweat through every single night, just overwhelming anxiety and desire to not be around anymore. And thankfully I got help and got counseling and God really helped me walk through that season. And then, uh, about four and a half years ago, I, my best friend, uh, took his life. Um, so he committed suicide and he was like a child in the faith to me, like a Timothy to me, a guy that I lived with me, lived with us.

I mentored him, poured into him, handed the church that I've planted over to him to lead in my place. And so when that happened, I went through another journey of my own, uh, wrestling with what, what did I do? How did I fail? How did I get here? And so had to get help again. Um, and that journey was a two year journey of meeting with a, a 10 man coach, which is a great ministry. I recommend, I met with him once a week for 14 months and I was unbelievably transformed by that process. Like I'm now trained as a 10 man coach. I help people in similar spaces, a lot, work with a lot of leaders, not always who are struggling with suicide, but just are hitting a wall or struggling emotionally or haven't been, uh, given the help they need to be emotionally healthy.

So that's some of my journey. And that same, about three months after my friend took his life, another friend who used to be, uh, the vice president of a network I was a part of years ago, a church planning network took his life, very public figure. A lot of people would know who he is if I said his name. Um, and so I think for me, I just, I realized, man, we have got to do a far better job of being present with people and caring for people and, uh, helping people when they're in trouble and letting them know it's okay to talk about it. It's okay to go get help. Like you're not alone in this. Lots of people have these struggles. So that's some of my own journey. Yeah. Yeah. No, that's like one of the biggest lies that I think goes through.

People's minds is that you're the only person dealing with this. You're the only one that's feeling this way. So you almost feel helpless of not being able to say anything because you're like, well, I don't want to burden them with my struggles. I don't. And this is like, yes, talk to somebody, share that feeling. Um, so what, what, what has been common signs that you've seen? Um, and maybe there's not, maybe there's not a whole lot of signs, but have you seen any or have you noticed maybe kind of a pattern that, um, it takes people down to, to this path of feeling this way and coming so deep into whether it's depression or, or having these suicidal ideations. Yeah. I mean, I, I think, I think there's a few different things to pay attention to.

Some is going to be emotional or, and verbal cues that you, you see in people where you'd like, they, they, you can tell that they, they're experiencing a great deal of hopelessness or shame, toxic shame, or a sense of failure. Um, and it shows up in like either verbal or emotional cues. Like, like, like, I don't know if anybody cares about me. What's the point? Why am I even here? Um, you know, so there's, you're going to hear people say things like that. I think those are things, listen to when people talk like they're, like they're not, they don't matter or that no one sees them or that it it's, you know, there's no point in really living. Um, you want to, you want to listen for those cues for sure.

And some of them are emotional cues where you just see someone get darker and darker and darker. And, um, in terms of the way they see the world, the way they see themselves, the way they interact. And sometimes it's not obvious because they, they actually, their emotions seem just dead. Like, it's almost like you see them emotionless and that they've so impaired them that they don't feel them anymore. And that often is where depression comes from. I mean, I've depressed my feelings for so long. I don't have them anymore. So pay attention to that. Pay attention to behavioral changes. A lot of times people in this place will begin to withdraw more and more from social activities, from family gatherings, from the previous commitments they made.

Um, so their, their behaviors start to change. They, sometimes people even will experience after a period of depression and they almost look super calm. And it's because they've already made the decision that they're going to take their life. So they've settled in their mind, this is going to be over. And so that's a thing to, if you see someone who's been in depression for a long time and all of a sudden incredible calm comes, it's almost like if you've ever been around a tornado, but like, you know, it's windy, windy, windy. And all of a sudden it just stops. Like the trees, it feels like the air got sucked out and then boom, it hits like hard. And I think that you've got to watch that in your friends.

Um, the, the, sometimes they'll give away things like they don't care about keeping anything anymore. So they're also purging. Um, sometimes I think that you'll see an increased use of drugs or alcohol as a way of coping. Um, I think you also got to watch for risky behavior, uh, whether it's like excessive spending, dangerous hobbies, just stuff that shows that they don't really care. They're probably leaning into self-destruction. So those are behavioral things you want to pay attention to. And then there's obviously some physical things too. Like they might not sleep much anymore. Uh, there's sudden weight loss or weight gain because their eating habits are changing. Radically, um, they might not even take care of themselves.

So their personal hygiene, just kind of let go of that. Um, and then just a few other ones, uh, if, if they're, and these seem to be obvious, but I want to say them anyway, if they, if you ever catch somebody researching ways to commit suicide, obviously you're going to be concerned if they're stockpiling pills, if they're looking into getting weapons, um, those are things to really pay attention to. Um, my friend that, that was the case. He had been researching, uh, what is the most painless way to take your life, uh, painless and quick. And, and the people around him knew that and went and got him help, but they should have got, we should have gotten even more help than we did. Um, so those are some of the things that are going to be signs, uh, that you're going to want to look for.

Yeah. That was a lot. I know I just gave you a pile. Well, in one of the challenges of, of us, Jeff is, as you know, just even some of what you just threw out there and trying to, to more dig in, you know, we are people that are listening to this, um, is, uh, all digital ministry, like, uh, digital churches, um, physical churches, doing digital ministry, but we're, we're engaging with people remotely. Yeah. And so like you're, you're talking about, you know, if they're stockpiling pills and stuff like that, you know, I, we only really see what, what we see exactly. We see what's on zoom. We see what's on, uh, like on, on a webcam or, or, you know, what, how people are interacting via, via texting or things like that, you know, and I'm thinking, you know, I know some of your stories, like, um, you know, an experience of somebody that's in another time zone or another state or a friend that, that that's far away.

And you're thinking about maybe some of those, those interactions where you're, you're, you know, engaging and, and, and talking with them remotely. You don't have that face to face, you know, opportunity. And there's, there, I think there's, it's interesting some of the, the, the language in chat, um, there's, uh, there's struggles because we don't have that physical tell. Uh, and so there's, there's a negative to digital, but to be honest, I think there's a, there's a strength to digital as well, because I think people are more open to engaging and dialoguing via digital. They feel more safe having some of these conversations and being more transparent. Um, remotely because that person's not face to face to face.

Have you like, have you had any experience dealing with, with people that are remote, uh, that are, that are, that are far away from you and having some of these conversations? Absolutely. Yeah. And I would even say that that is one of the strengths of, of a digital space is this was, they feel like they can stay a little bit anonymous so that they might show up more. Um, they might tell the truth more. The downside is you can't be with it, you know, not watch body as much. You can't watch behaviors as much, like you said. So there is a tension. There's one where you, they might show up more and be, feel more honest. And I found that to be the case too. Anybody I engage in digital space tends to be more open and honest about what they're really going through.

Partly because I think that the lack of being next to each other creates almost a safety. Like I can shut this off at any point and I can go away. Now that's the flip side. It's like, you got to pay attention to when someone just goes away, when someone disengages in the space, stops having chats or whatever, like that's, those are things you want to watch for when, Hey, where have they been? We haven't heard from them in a long time. That might lead us to say, I got to reach out more intentionally, check in on them, see what's happening. Find out if they're, if they're trying to, you know, move away and into greater isolation. But I do think this space, the space you guys are in lends itself in a lot of ways to a greater vulnerability and transparency.

Yeah. And that's why it's so important. You know, I've been doing digital ministry for a while. It's so important to build relationships like in, in whatever way you can. Now you can't build it with every single person. That would be impossible, but you can build it with some. And so when you keep your eyes open, looking for those things, like looking for, like you were talking about the just changes or like they start posting a certain song that like, you're like, that's like some suspicion is coming up that I need to, but then you have enough, you've built trust with them so you can speak into their life and say, Hey, what's going on? Like, I haven't seen you in, you know, our group for a while.

I haven't, you know, you can reach out to them. So that's so important is to build those relationships so that you can step into them, especially when you're doing this digitally and you're not, you know, you can't just like drive over to their house. You have another way to connect with them because people will have their phones with them all the time. So you can just connect that way. But I think that's so important. Yeah. And, you know, pay attention, pay attention to the conversations you guys are having when you're with people. Like what, what are the themes running through? What are the, like, we really want to care for each other. Well, we want to listen really, really well and be curious, you know, ask more questions than so that you draw out the heart.

And, you know, one of my favorite Proverbs is the one that says, you know, that the person of understanding is able to draw out the deep waters of another person's heart. And I, man, I think if we can learn how to do that in these spaces, we're going to be so helpful for people. I would love to kind of maybe throw some myths out about, you know, bust them about suicidal ideations. I know for me, one of the biggest things as I was going through my mental health coaching training was if somebody's struggling with that and they start talking about, you know, feeling this way, like I had a hard time wanting to ask the question, like, well, do you have a plan, but you need to like asking that question is not going to be, oh, I should make a plan and then them go do that.

It's, it's that question that they start to be seen. And so that's been, that's been a really tough question to ask that I've had to do a couple of times to ask people, like, do you have a plan? Because if so, then we need to take this conversation in a different place because I'm not qualified to have, like, let's get some more help. And so knowing that, but what are some other, like, maybe myths that you've heard or you've, other people have said that you're like, no, we gotta, we gotta get rid of that kind of thought process. Yeah. I mean, there's a, there's a lot of them. I mean, like one, you know, one is like people who are suicide, talk about suicidal or express suicidal ideation are just seeking attention.

And that's, it's just an intention seeker. And like, that may be the case, but don't ever minimize that. I mean, they may be seeking attention, but don't ever minimize it to just that. Some people think, well, it's a selfish act. And the idea really for many people is they think they're alleviating other people from their, the way that they're, they are on other people that, and, and they, they see it as a way out. Like they, they really do think it's a way of saving self, uh, not selfish. You know, in fact, a lot of the person that helped me, I walked through some of the stuff with my friends. They said, this was his last attempt to save himself actually. Uh, and I don't mean like in salvation words, like Christian salvation.

I mean, like, like he was trying to help himself in the, in his own mind. And so, um, and now it did, didn't, and it hurt all of us. Right. But, but that's, that's real. People are trying to get out of the pain or trying to get out of the weight that they're feeling. So, uh, they're trying to rescue themselves in a sense. Um, uh, I think, uh, there's another myth that, um, you know, it only happens to people who have a chemical problem. You know, like it's primarily a, you know, just a brain issue. Um, and you know, if they could just get the right medicine, that won't happen. It's like, there's lots of reasons why this happens. It's not just that. Um, uh, I think another myth is it happens without warning.

I don't necessarily think that's the case. I think there's lots of warning signs if we're close enough and if we can watch and be present with people. Um, so those are a few of them. Um, you know, another one, I think, and this is what I had to work through as I process with other people is like, if someone's determined to die, nothing's going to stop them. And that's not true. Uh, we can, we can do something. They can be helped. Their thoughts can be changed. Uh, doesn't have to end that way. Uh, so, uh, and then you said it too, and I just want to state it again, asking someone about their thoughts and about their plans, uh, is not going to put the idea in their heart head and then get them to go do it.

It's actually going to get it out of their head. Like they're going to get to now say it out loud. And when something is said out loud language, we use them to counseling. I use coaching because I'm not really official counselor, but coaching work that I do is if it's mentionable, it's manageable. So if we can get them to say it out loud, then we could, we could do something about it. If they don't say it out loud, they're living with it all by themselves. And that's a dangerous place to stay. And I think that can translate into the digital space. Let's get people to talk to, to say out loud or in chat, what it is they're thinking about doing with their pain or their hopelessness or their struggle.

Like we can invite them to tell us what they think they're going to do as a result of what they're going through. So I'm glad you started there. Cause I think that's one of the fundamental myths most people believe. Um, so yeah, I just want to draw attention to that. If it's mentionable, then it's manageable. Like I, I have, uh, that's tattoo worthy, man. We have, we have a theme on the show. Like if the good stuff, would I actually put Jeff Vanderstelt's name on my body? And that quote, that, that quote's good enough for, you know, did you, did you, is that you? Or did you steal that from somebody? That's, that's language and that's in the therapeutic world. So I didn't make that up myself, but, but here's the, but here's, here's the idea.

Like, like, because we are made in the image of a God who spoke and things came into existence. When we speak, something exists. So when I say something now it's real and now that it's real, we can do something about it. When I keep it inside of me, I, we, we can't do much with it. Right. So that's the nature of confession. Like we are a confessional people and that's not just confessing sin. It's just confession is saying what's saying out loud, what's going on inside of me. And when I confess out loud, what's going on inside, it's real. Now that it's real or mentionable, it's manageable. We can do something about it. I want to take it to, so say that we've noticed something in someone, whether it's a friend, someone online that we've connected with, a family member, um, we've noticed something.

How, how do we go about saying something? How do we go about like taking some steps to, to make sure that, you know, that this person is okay, um, or we see, start to see certain things. What, what are some things that, and steps that we could do to, to help? Yeah. I mean, it, it does, it does require a direct conversation. That's very gentle. Um, if we see something with somebody that we're concerned about. And, um, um, I think it's important to use I statements when we have a conversation with someone about something we've seen, like I've noticed that you don't seem the same. Uh, you, I've seen that you're, you, you, I've noticed that you might, you know, that you're disengaging. Is that true?

Or I'm worried. I've got concerns or asking questions like, you know, are, are you, are you growing in hopelessness? Are you thinking about hurting yourself? Yeah. You even said it too. Are you developing a, I do have a plan. Like if we, since they really are moving that direction to be that direct, uh, but not condemning, not judge judging, not, you know, trying to like get them to think differently, believe differently. You know, that, that's where we get in trouble. Like, I think sometimes we will say to people, well, you shouldn't feel that way. You know, you're, you're, you're better than that. Or it's not as bad as you think. It's like, no, no, just let people talk. And there's like three, three ways in which we usually shut people down without knowing it.

One is we, we use sarcasm or humor. Another is that we try to give advice. And a third is we try to use encouragement, not that encouragement isn't good, but when someone needs to let something out, you're better off just asking questions and drawing out more and more and more, because the more they can get out, the more we can then address. So be careful that you don't minimize, that you don't try to give so much advice that you shut them down. So yeah, now if they share stuff like, yeah, I'm really, really hurting right now, or I'm really sad right now, acknowledge it. Say something like, man, that sounds really hard, you know, or I'm sorry that you're going through that, but we don't have to fix them.

When we try to fix them, it's usually a way of shutting them down. You know, so I do that, listen without interrupting, you know, like just let them keep talking, be empathetic. In other words, you know, if you're able to feel with them what they're going through. So I, you know, that's, like I said, that sounds really sad. That sounds really scary. It sounds like you're feeling so overwhelmed. I can see that, you know, so see them, be present with them. I also would encourage you to make sure you're choosing the right time and space to do this. I think sometimes there, we do this in front of people and then it really can shame people. So we've got to be really wise about where we have these conversations.

And please don't promise that you won't tell anybody, okay? This is where people get trouble. Like, man, what you say will stay with me. It's like, no, no. If someone shares that they're wanting to take their life that can't stay with you, you know, that's where you might need to say something like, I care about you too much to keep this to myself. Like, we need to get you help. We, I love you so much. I don't want anything to take you out of my life or out of this relationship. And then I would also say, make sure you take care of yourself in this. I mean, this, if you start walking with someone through any of this suicidal ideation, it's a lot of emotions that will be drained from you. So you're going to need to get help while you're doing it.

And then keep checking in. Keep checking in on people. Don't think because the conversation went well that they're still doing well. You'll need to check back over and over again. Yeah, so many good points there. Almost two follow-up questions here. I want to get to secondhand trauma because I think that's important. What is the point? Now, Jeff, to framework this, I mean, you've got a lot of the people, people doing digital ministry, are primarily bivocational. You don't have seminary-trained people. Megan is AACC certified, which is awesome. That's why she's the architect. But her work with and studies with the American Association of Christian Counselors, that's an anomaly. Most of us, honestly, it's more volunteer work and bivocational than it is seminary-trained.

And so that's the level of study going into this. Not the level of pastoral shepherding. You understand that. But they're not studied and versed in this. At what point is it, oh, man, this is out of my league. I need to get this connected to someone. Like, when do we wave the white flag and say, oh, let me introduce you and get you connected to someone? Or when do we call that suicide hotline or recommend they do that? Because it's beyond our capacity. What should we be looking for? I think as soon as you have the thought that this person might take their life, you've got to go do something about it, even if they don't say it. Like, you've got to get help. And that might just be, hey, I need to call somebody who I know knows about this.

I need to call a suicide hotline just to be counseled so I know what to pay attention to and know what to do next. I think as soon as you have any indication that that's where they're headed, you cannot stay alone in this. You've got to get help. So, Megan, I'd love to hear your thoughts on that because you're a professional, but I think we wait too long. I think so often we wait too long. Yeah. I mean, that's definitely, that's something that you have to sign, you know, ethics. And I, before I start any session, I say, okay, well, this is, everything is confidential in this room, except for you're going to harm yourself or harm someone else. And then I have to, like, I'm mandated to report that.

And so you have to know, you have to know where that boundary is. You have to know when you learn the people and you have relationship, you can kind of sense, like, if this needs to really be taken seriously. And so I think that's a big key is to learn those people so you know when to. But I think there's a lot of times when you start having kind of, like, the sirens signaling and, like, going off of, like, I don't know how to handle this. That's the point. Get somebody else involved. That's right. If you're not sure, just don't try to make up something. Don't just try to, like, I'll just figure it out. Like, I've struggled with, you know, anxiety before. Like, I'll just figure out, like, what works for me.

It's going to be different for someone else. So get somebody else involved if it just even seems like, oh, I'm not sure. Just another follow-up question off of that. And that was great. Secondhand trauma is, you know, that's a term, you know, Jeff, I think you know Mindy Caliguire, a good friend of the Church Digital. And Mindy did an episode with us a couple weeks ago on rest. And so Mindy, Mindy's kind of my go-to. She's on, you know, she's not a certified, but, you know, expert. But, you know, she does a lot in this mental health and soul care space. And she used that term with me in a conversation once. And, you know, in my life, going all the way back to high school, like there have been situations where I delved into the deep end.

You know, I'm a get in there and solve it. And I don't, you know, I don't mind getting dirty. And so if someone's down and dirty and going through hard times, traditionally, I'm the guy that's jumping in the mud with them to try to help resolve it. And, you know, there have been situations in my life where, okay, that's, you know, secondhand trauma. And now I'm carrying that weight. And now that weight is becoming me. And I don't know how to leave myself from it. Like I have always struggled being the nine to five guy and, you know, walking away without carrying the weight of ministry, even this level. How do you, what do we watch for? How do we protect ourselves from maybe this idea of secondhand trauma?

Well, I think first we all, before even we get to it, we ought to be in the practice of taking care of ourselves emotionally. So we know when we're not emotionally well. Like I think if you don't know the difference between being emotionally healthy and being emotionally unhealthy, you won't know when it's happening to you. So I think preventative, we need to engage in preventative work, which for me is like I, on a daily basis, I do a feeling check-in at least once a day or more. I do it in my journal. So like feeling sad, lonely, hurt, guilt, shame. I go through eight different emotions. Where am I at with them? I talk to God about that. And I have a few friends that I do that with regularly.

And so I'm in the practice of doing a check-in with my feelings and then articulating what's going on and why those feelings, what those feelings are connected to. So if you aren't regularly doing that, I'd say you need to find a way to practice that because that's going to help you then be aware when you're, when you aren't doing well or when the trauma from somebody else's pain is affecting you because you'll be doing the check-in regularly. You'll be like, man, I've got more sadness than I realized. I got a lot more fear. And so, and at trauma, really trauma, a lot of ways is about becoming detached. You know, it's about being disconnected relationally to yourself because of something else that happens somewhere else.

So what we have to, if we can keep staying attached to self, what I mean by that is I care for myself. I love myself, not in a selfish way, but like in a attending to my soul. Then when I go to care for someone else and they're detached, and then we experience another form of detachment between us because of what happens, I can go back and reattach and care for myself in the way that the trauma probably didn't care for me. Because when you're in the midst of trauma, it's, it's breaking, it's breaking you apart. It's destroying relationship both internally as well as externally. And so to be able to reattach to God yourself is going to be necessary for the healing that you're going to have to experience.

And, and you said it, you become it. And that's the thing that you, you begin to take it on yourself and you become the, the person's trauma. You become the person's feelings. And that enmeshment is really dangerous for people when they start to become it themselves. So, I mean, I said a lot there, but at the heart of it, it's, you've got to keep doing your own emotional health work so that you attend to your soul when you end up in those spaces. You know, you, you said, uh, emotional, I'm sorry, Megan, you said emotional health, uh, you know, use that phrase a lot. Is that the emotional, healthy leader, like something like that? Would you recommend those resources or what resources would you dive?

All those resources are good as long as you do the work. And by the work, I mean, not read them and cognitively learn about them, which is usually left brain activity, but right brain do emotion. Like again, when you, when it's mentioned, it's manageable. So if I say I'm sad, now I feel sad. I mean, if I feel sad and I say it now, sadness is real to me. And Jesus said, blessed are those who mourn, they'll be comforted. So now I can get my need met relationally from God or others. So when I say it, the language we use Tim men is if I feel I need, if I need, I'll desire. So I'll just give you an example. I feel sad. Then I know I need comfort. Now it's, it's manageable. I know I need something here.

If I need comfort, I'll desire. Desire it. It's like there'll be internal energy to go get what I need. And then if I desire it, I'll long for it, which means I'll reach out to God or others to get that need met, which is what restores hope, by the way. Because when I anticipate I'm going to get something met, I have hope. And so that process of feeling, so I'll know I have a need, so I can attend to a desire, so I can reach out and have it met and then have hope that it will be, it will change me, is the journey of doing your work. Like, that's basically the work when I say emotional health work. A lot of people read about it, but they never practice it. That's where I get, one of my concerns about the books, I'm working on a book right now, but the problem with the book is if you don't actually do the practice of what I just said, and ideally with some other people who can then reflect back to you what's going on, you'll just have a left brain process of knowledge without a right brain expression of emotion and relationship.

Yeah, I was going to tag on that, like, we need to be able to sit in those emotions. Like, if you don't, you can't process it. And how awkward it can be, how uncomfortable it can be, like, it's so, like, so healthy for you to do that. And I think that's when you start to, all the things you were talking about, you start to know yourself more. Like, you start to recognize quicker when you start to feel sad or you start to, like, you're listening to somebody else's story and you start to feel, well, oh, okay, that's activating something in me and, like, I should probably bring somebody else into this conversation because you have to know yourself. If you've struggled with suicidal ideations and you're talking to somebody with that, like, bring somebody else in that conversation immediately because that's good.

That would be hard for anyone to do, let alone if you've had your own struggle with that. So that's one of those pieces when you can know yourself so well, you can bring those things together and help. And it'll be so much more beneficial to the person you're talking with. And then you're not trying to take that on yourself, like, trying to save the world with that. Yeah, that's right. Yeah. And as you do that, you also want to pay attention to your body because your body is giving signals about what's happening to you. A lot of people don't even pay attention at all to their body, but your body will tell you if you're taking on other people's trauma. Like, there's a lot of signs that you can pay attention to in your gut, your back, your – I mean, your whole body will start to feel pain even at times.

So, by the way, I'm so glad you guys are having this conversation. This is awesome. Like, I just want to commend you that you've been putting so much time into this space. It's so important. It's – yeah, it's worth noting, like, the chat in Twitch has exploded on this and the topics of encouraging and asking questions and complimentary. And it's – this is – you know, we put this on demand, and it's great. You get more exposure on demand. But the experience of actually jumping in the chat live and seeing this, and they're, like, answering each other's questions and digging on top of that. Like, it's really fascinating to see even the community centered around this in Twitch on how they're digging into it.

And so, thanks for being, you know, just even transparent and honest digging into these questions. Oh, man. I'm so glad to, yeah. I was – I've been watching it the whole time, and I'm like, oh, yes. Okay, yes. Like, loving that. And I think Roz just put, like, a resource in there. But that's what I was going to ask you next is, like, what resources do you recommend? For people that – maybe somebody that's struggling or somebody who's trying to help, different things like that. What are some resources you would think of? Oh, there's – I mean, there's so many. It's almost hard to know where to begin. I saw the Body Keeps the Score just showed up on the chat. I think that's a great one in terms of what I just said about paying attention to your body and how it carries trauma.

You know, there's a – John Bradshaw wrote a book on being set free from the shame that binds. And he's probably what the seminal thinker that everybody else that's writing about this is drawing from, whether it's Pia Melody or Kurt Thompson or, you know, Chuck DeGrowt. I mean, Mindy, all of them. He is the one that really deals with the toxic shame and healthy shame that I think is at the heart of so much suicidal ideation. Because we just get so overwhelmed with not feeling great about ourselves. And so I think books like that, Kurt Thompson's book, The Soul of Shame, is really helpful. Jenny Allen just wrote a book that just came out. I'm not done with it yet, but I love it already. And it's Untangling Your Emotions.

Here's a lot more about how do you do the process, like what I just – some of what I just said. The Voice of the Heart is a good book by Chip Dodd. I recommend Tin Man Ministries, like I just said. I think they're incredibly good at getting people to do the work. I just did two sessions earlier today with two different guys, and I'm just watching breakthroughs in their life. So get help if you need it. There's resources out there. Mindy Caliguire is incredible. Her ministry is wonderful. You know, so those are some of the people I'd direct you to. I did notice somebody asked, is there a hotline? And did we get that, the suicide hotline, if people need to call somebody? There was a link that was shared, but I'll throw that at Megan.

Megan, do you have like a hotline that you utilize? I mean, primarily we're U.S.-based, but there is international engagement as well. I mean, I know the biggest one, the 988, that's the suicide hotline. I believe there's a hotline, and that's even like hopeline.com, I think. And that's a way that people can connect, even just like online, digitally, back and forth. Some of those are even like tech space that you can do that as well. So those are definitely ones that I recommend to pass them to if they're struggling, because they're going to be people who are trained to walk through that. Yeah. Yeah. Leighton says that he's got a command when he streams on Twitch and his channel that has like an international link.

And so he's driving, I think, right now. He probably doesn't have access to it. So let's do this. If you're looking for the international number, you can just, you know, bother Leighton. Email Leighton at Leighton, L-E-I-G-H-T-O-N, Leighton at thechurch.digital. Or you can blow him up on Discord. He's flat cap. And, yeah, he doesn't have the international link on his phone, but he'll get it to you. So you can ask him and pastor him to get it to you later. Go ahead, Jeff. Jeff, I was just going to say, I think for all of you living in this space and doing online ministry, online interaction, I think it'd be good if you all had that just regularly posted in your space because I think because you don't know if they need help.

And so but they might know and they might be willing to reach out. So because because you can't be present with everybody in the same way, you've got to be more proactive about this, I think. So I highly recommend you guys do something like that. You know, it's it's interesting. I would have conversations about this, about, you know, dealing with suicide, people with ideation and thinking about it. And, you know, some churches would be like, oh, my gosh, we deal with that all the time. And some churches are like, we never have this issue. Well, I don't know what you're talking about. And it's it really digs into if if churches are leaning into digital community, if they are talking to people, if they're utilizing social media as a tool, two way tool, if they're doing things in virtual reality or discord or or places where there is conversation centered around community.

They're more likely in public environments like, you know, not church online platform or the church website. If you're all outside of that, you're more likely to get those those conversations. You know, it's it's if you're only broadcasting your church services online and the only time you interact is in a church service chat room. You're not likely to get those types of conversations. And so it really is. It's kind of like even in digital environment. If you stay in the church building digitally, if you only focus on on your little niche corners, you're not going to be really engaging with with the people that need you. But if you can can leave the refuge of the church digitally even and start to get into these communities in these spaces.

Oh, my gosh, there is such a need. Like we haven't even gotten into like the virtual reality implications in the metaverse and and dealing with with with people in this space. It is like I've sat in suicide prevention meetings in in in VR chat. We've I've had those conversations in virtual reality bars like there is there is so much darkness in there. There's such a need for this. But it's it's not it's not up to them to come to the church. It's up to us to go to them and be informed in their spaces on on how to handle this. And and this is man, this is just even scraping the tip of the iceberg. This is beautiful. Thank you for for your time here. Megan, what else you got? Yeah, no, I'm going to tag on to what you just said, because that was in my trainings.

We talked a lot about how in the past people used to come to the church like they would come to the church. Shores when they were in need. But that's changed like that's not there might be some still that come. But for the most part, the church has created distance between the people who are hurting and it breaks my heart. So being able to be in these digital spaces, I think, is a way that we're able to bridge that gap to get to build trust with them, to be able to be there and be, you know, in their hand, because that's where our phones are. They're always right in front of us. So you have to go out. And I love the mindset of everyone that's doing digital ministry is we got to go meet them where they're at.

And that's exactly what we need to do. It's not a come here. Look at me. Let's come to me. It's no, I got to go out. And like you said, Jeff, like get in the mess. Like we've got to get in there and dive in. And I think that that's so important. And we missed a little bit. And that breaks my heart that we don't have them coming in as much. And so going out and reaching out to them has been, I know for me, that was a huge game changer to just be able to really pour into somebody's life and be able to make a difference, just stepping in in whatever way that may be. So that's been, yeah, one of those things just to add on to it. But I think, you know, we've talked about digital. We've talked about social media.

You know, I think we've talked a little bit about it. But like there are positive and negatives of it. Again, you can share what you want to share. But what kind of effect do you think it has had? Like, has it had a positive effect overall, like that people can share more? Or is that maybe a negative in some ways? Yeah, I mean, I think the interaction side of it is really positive, right? I think the opportunity to have a conversation, to share a lot more than I might have if I was, if you were with me physically. I think there's some real strengths that you get to experience in that space. I think the negative, and I'll say social media more than just like chats, you know, and discussions. The negative is you're constantly being told you're not okay.

Like, you don't look good enough, you don't have enough, or you're trying to always present the better side of you in some cases. So you're keeping a false self out there all the time. And so that kind of potential separation from my real self and my false self is quite damaging to a person's psyche if they can't have a place where their true self shows up. So I think that's the flip side, you know, that you probably, you guys are probably aware of it because you live in the space and you read all the stuff more than I do about what the good and the bad. But, you know, this anxious generation, I don't know if you're familiar with that book at all, but just the, the way that this generation that's Gen Z and young millennials has more anxiety than any generation ever before.

More people on anxiety medicines because of it, and if you're on it, that's not to say bad on you. It's just, there's an epidemic, you know, of anxiety. And so I do think the constant barrage of what, what the world is offering me and what I could be and I'm not can be very damaging to the psyche, the psyche. And I, of course, I have three Gen Z kids. And so I've watched it, you know, I've watched it up close and personal. I have to regularly tell them that, that what is out there is not real in terms of the images. Like I think the images, now the language, the conversations oftentimes are more real, right? So that's the, the both and of the, of the strength and the weaknesses. So, um, that, that's my concern.

And, and I think the rates of suicide have gone up as a result. Um, I don't think that's the only reason I think we live in a crazy world. I think there's all kinds of stuff. Right. But I think it does contribute. And so it's something we need to pay attention to. Yeah. That comparison game is never helpful is the worst thing you can do. And it's so hard because when you're comparing yourself, like your worst moments to everyone's best, you're obviously going to think, man, my life sucks. This is, this is horrible. Like, look at this person. They're going on vacation all the time or, you know, whatever. And like, we do, but that's not a true comparison. And we just, we need to like really cut that out.

And that goes back to really being watchful of yourself and how you're feeling and, and then sharing that with others. I think I saw earlier Leighton shared about like, we, you know, you have to talk about mental health. You have to talk about these things and then you're able to, to help in those areas. Like it's, it's talked about so much more. And I think that's, it is a part of why we see so many people like are coming to terms, maybe is a good way to put it, that they struggle with it. Because I'm going to bet that there are a lot of people who are in the above generations that struggle with those things, but there's a whole other stigma that's attached to it. And so that's a whole other conversation, but it definitely, it definitely is a struggle that I like, I think we're hearing about it more.

It's always been there, mental health, all the different things. It's always been a struggle, but we definitely need to talk about it more. And that's why I've been so excited about this episode and just all of these season. But I would love to just go to, if someone is listening, whether it's like they're live right now or listening on demand, but they're struggling with like feeling down or maybe thoughts of suicide ideation, what is something like encouraging or just something you would want to tell them if you were sitting across from them? What would be something you would say? Well, if I was sitting across from them, I would say, you, you're a big deal. Well, you are fearfully and wonderfully made by God.

You are an image bearer of God. You are remarkably wonderful. And your life really, really matters. And you being present in the world affects the world. It changes things. You have such a great opportunity to be who God meant you to be and to not have you around would be one of the greatest losses. And so please, please give yourself to me and others by staying with us and being present and living fully. And please let me get you some help. I want to direct you to people who can tell you the same thing but can do even more than I can do for you. And I want to get them some help and connect them to probably a really trusted counselor who can really, you know, walk with them through their journey.

I also want to make sure they have a really good community that will keep telling them the same thing. Because sadly, we surround ourselves with people often who don't repeat that message enough into our lives. And man, do we need that. We need that so badly. I always take people to Psalm 139. You know, it's like you can't run away from God. He's with you. He's right next to you. And he loves you so much. And I quoted it already. He fearfully and wonderfully made you in your mother's womb. So, yeah, that's probably what I would say to them. Yeah, that's awesome. I'm like, I don't know where to go from there because it's so good. Roz actually, you know, they're talking online. Flatcap Layton says, if your pastor can't admit struggles, if your pastor can't be authentic, how can people in the church feel safe to admit struggles?

And so, like, the more authentic you are in your community, like, the more transparent that people are going to be as well because they're going to feel safe because they're empathetic. They're relating to you with that. Roz replies, something I find helpful to remember is, although I have passion to care for people, I'm a people too. And so, you know, we're in that same battle, which is, once again, that provides the empathy. If you can relationally connect with people, if you can be empathetic, you have just so much opportunity. I want to ask one more question. And I know we're going long here. Jeff, before you do that, I wanted to say something because you said it, but I want to make sure we hear it.

Like, vulnerability begets vulnerability. That's good. So when I'm willing to, I mean, I started in vulnerability from the very top of this thing, saying, like, I had my own journey, right? And so what does that do? People are like, oh, he gets me. He understands. He's gone through this. And that's what you just said. But I want to say it that we can't say that one enough. If you're wondering why no one shows up with you, it's because maybe you haven't learned how to show up yourself. Yeah, you know, it's it's interesting. I over the course of the year and I've talked about it on this podcast, like I had bouts of depression. Not I would not say that I was suicidal or any tendencies. I don't think it got to that level.

But honestly, like I was trying to figure out why I was depressed. I internalized that I didn't talk about it. I was trying to quantify it like it was a geometry equation. How do I solve this problem? And it was not until I jumped on a call with Andy Mage, who's one of the leaders of the Church Digital. And I said, hey, you're a leader in this organization. I need to tell you I'm depressed. Literally saying those words to Andy Mage and having several other conversations with leaders and other people relieved 70, 80 percent of my depression. Like getting it out there and taking the stigma off it removed it from my life. And now as I'm having I mean, shoot, I had a conversation about this earlier this morning with people that were struggling with with depression and anger.

And, you know, it gives you it gives you license to listen, to understand and to build trust, enabling you to eventually speak into it. I'm not not not trying to solve them in 30 seconds like it's a microwave, but allowing them to process. I literally I told this guy, this guy's literally bombing this morning. He was so freaking ticked, angry, like if I was in the room, I would have backed up because I thought he was going to punch something. This is how angry this guy was. This is the other strengths about being on digital. Digital. Exactly. But I mean, literally, that was like he's he's like I was literally like, your life sucks. Sorry to tell you. And you can't fix it right now. You're going to have to deal with it.

You have to live with live with being in this space in this time. And he did not like to hear that. But that's that's what he needed to hear and to deal with. But thank you for that, Jeff. I appreciate it. I will last one last question. If I can. I'm taking advantage of time. Sis Pineapple. Actually, I have no idea who Sis Pineapple is. I need to meet you. But Sis Pineapple says it's tricky when it's plain to see that people need serious help, but refuse all support and help. She's actually in the place, she says, with a family member going through a situation like that. How do we cope and manage when we know the answer, but they're not willing to listen? Like, how do we handle that? It's not it's not emotional damage where I'm worried about protecting myself, but I'm weeping inside knowing that that things are falling apart for my friend or my loved one or my associate.

And they're not they're not they're not answering. Like, do we call the suicide line for them? What? And I know you've had a couple of situations where you've maybe in hindsight have seen some of this stuff happen. What do you wish you had done in these situations that went south? Like what what's your inner critic saying, what's your in hindsight, maybe what would you have have handled if you had the opportunity to do it differently? Well, you asked a lot of questions there. So, I mean, there's the one the one question when, you know, you feel like you can't do anything about it. There is a reality that we have to accept our limitations and know that we can only we can't we can't change somebody like we can be available.

We can present. We can do everything possible to try to be be what they need. But we have to embrace our limitations at some point, which is really hard. But if you don't, you will you'll put way too much on yourself to be a savior for everybody else. So that's important. But in terms of asking the question, when when you think someone's potentially suicidal and they don't want to get any help, I think we do need to go get help for them. And if I could do it over again, I would have I would have called the suicide hotline and said, my friend needs help. He won't go get help. What do I do? And I would have taken their counsel to do exactly what to ask. And probably he probably needed to be put into a facility where he could be watched 24 seven and cared for.

And he was watched 24 seven. We had somebody watch him 24 seven, but he told everybody he was fine and he wasn't. And so there was like a one hour block that didn't get covered. And that's when he took his life. And so, you know, I just I don't I don't I won't trust somebody saying they're fine anymore. That's the other thing. When someone says they're OK, but I don't think they're OK. I got to assume they're not OK and not let anybody do a self-assessment. I think when it gets to that level, I think we need to have medical help, professional help, give an assessment instead of us. So that's what I would have done differently there. I would have actually called in help. Now, there's it was very complicated, too.

He was three tours of duty in Afghanistan, Iraq. He was on medication from psychiatrists that didn't take care of the meds well. He tried to get in to get help. They said he couldn't get in for two months because it was the VA Veterans Association. So they're like there's a whole bunch of stuff that made this even more complicated. But looking back, if I could look back, the inner critic says should have brought him to the hospital. And he said he didn't want to. And I said I should have just said, I don't care. I love you too much. We're going right now. So I think we thought we could keep an eye on him. And that wasn't enough. So, yeah, yeah, man, this has been such a good conversation, such so informative, so so transparent.

Jeff, man, I want to thank you for it for your time dealing with a very difficult subject. I want to Megan, this was this was a great call. And I'm glad we went down this road to the to the stream chat. I, you know, it's just it's been a lot of fun here. I don't know. Is that wrong? A lot of fun talking about suicide. But it's been it's been a great experience dealing with and and talking about a very sensitive subject. And so thank you for the time doing this. If once again, we're not experts in this at all. We're we're we're people that are walking down this road and doing ministry in this space just like you are. And so take it for what it's worth, you know, pray heading into these conversations.

That's the Holy Spirit to guide you and maybe learn a little bit from the experience. And just to reiterate, yeah. Call that suicide hotline for somebody who's not responsive and let the suicide hotline help you walk through that situation as they are prepared to do. And so thank you for that. So, hey, we're going to land a plane here for this. This has been we've got. You know what? That's actually another thing. Don't worry about it. But, hey, we've got a great lineup coming up here in the next couple of weeks. And so stay tuned to the Church Digital Discord, discord.thechurch.digital to get tapped in. What's coming up next on the podcast. But Jeff, thanks for hanging out with us. Megan, once again, appreciate your time.

We're going to land the plane for Megan, for Jeff, the other one. This is Jeff with The Church Digital. Thanks for hanging out with us today. We'll see you next time on the show. You all have a good one. We'll see you next time on the show.