EP104: Does the Holy Spirit Move Online?

Episode 104 of the Church Digital Podcast, powered by Stadia Church Planting. Jeff here. I always love saying that—powered by Stadia Church Planting. It's been less than a year here, and I love working with Stadia Church Planting. I'm gonna go ahead and do a selfish plug here right up front.

Stadia is doing a phenomenal amount of resources helping churches like yours establish physical churches, understand the physical aspects as well as the digital aspects of doing ministry. We've adapted this term "phygital"—P-H-Y-G-I-T-A-L. You've heard me say it here on the show time and time again. But if your church is interested in learning how to thrive, grow, and even multiply in this mid-post-COVID season, doing it physically as well as digitally, hey, we should really talk. Head over to stadiachurchplanting.org/digital—P-H-Y-G-I-T-A-L. We'll go and put the link in the show notes too. But there's an incredible opportunity for churches like yours to take that next step, not only physically, not only digitally, but also ultimately towards creating disciple makers out of your church and multiplying through your church. Check out stadiachurchplanting.org/digital.

All right, hey, so let's talk about 104 here. I am excited about this episode. Greg Nettle, president of Stadia, throughout basically this entire COVID season, he has asked me the same question time and time again. And honestly, like, I've been stammering, transparently, awkwardly. Maybe I don't have a good answer to this question. Here's the question Greg Nettle asks me: "Jeff, how have you seen the Spirit of God tangibly move through online in this COVID season?"

I would tell a story here and tell a story there, but he kept asking the same question over and over again. So it's like, hey, you know what, I need to find better answers because he really wants to know the answer to this. So I would start putting on Facebook groups. I'd start asking like digital pastors I know, "Hey, where are you seeing the Holy Spirit tangibly move?" And, you know, the digital pastors or my friends or volunteers, they would tell me stories. And oftentimes I'm listening to their stories and I'm like, "All right, is that really the Holy Spirit moving, or is that like just a really good system that's operating?" Or, you know, what's that measuring line between, okay, that's the Holy Spirit moving versus, man, we're just working really hard? Or maybe the Holy Spirit's moving because we're just working hard, and that sort of gets into this circular logic that sometimes I get stuck in.

This is the world that I've been in while Greg's been asking me, "Hey, Jeff, how have you seen the presence of God move through online in this season?" So, you know, by the way, Corey Deck is episode 99. We actually had a conversation with him because he answered that question in a way that I wasn't expecting. He said that 26 people had died in his church in this COVID season. That's a very powerful way to see God move through this COVID season. And so, like, he was an example of one of these stories that came out of me just aggressively asking this question.

Another example that came out of me asking this question is in the form of Alex Robinson. So Alex is a video editor here with Stadia Church Planting, an incredible creative, very involved in the marketing and that creative group here at Stadia. By the way, has done a ton of work helping churches create content that's helped churches understand how to thrive, grow, and multiply through our learning communities and digital cohorts. So, you know, Alex, man, thanks for just being an awesome guy. But Alex comes in and sends an email to me based off of me asking this question. He's like, "Jeff, you know, I've been wrestling with that." And he starts to go into this email thread talking about, "Well, you know what, he'll explain it, he'll set it up." But he really started to like open up the can of worms centered around, "Okay, so we're not seeing it online, but are we really seeing it physically? Or is it just, you know, and I'm a live production guy, is it just really good live production with the subwoofer and haze?" And I don't want to like unravel the wholeness that is the Holy Spirit moving through our large gatherings as much as really starting to question and look at how does the Holy Spirit move in context of what we're doing through our digital churches, through our online churches, through our digital churches here in COVID season, in the future, and what he's done in the past.

So I schedule this meeting with Alex, and about the same time, hey, why don't we bring in Alex's wife, Jamie? Jamie's a digital pastor, newly founded in this COVID season. It's like, "Hey, let's make it a family affair." This is the first time we're bringing in a husband and wife on a podcast here at the Church Digital. Took 104 for it to make it happen. So we're bringing into the conversation Alex and Jamie Robinson, as well as Ray Dearmas, digital pastor and co-host, of course, here with the Church Digital, and myself, Jeff, with the Church Digital and Stadia Church Planting, in a conversation essentially just around a question that I really want answered: Does the Holy Spirit, does the Spirit of God move online?

Okay, everybody, there you go. Alex, Jamie, maybe just take a minute, tell us individually your ministry story. What are you doing in ministry today?

Well, so I was in campus ministry for a little while, kind of right out of college. And Jamie and I had met in college. We got married very early on while I was doing campus ministry. And then so we went to seminary in Tennessee. And while we were there, we were involved in youth ministry at a church and worship ministry. I've always been involved in some aspect of worship ministry, creative arts ministry. And then while we're finishing up our master's degree, a position became available at the church that actually Jamie grew up in, here where we live now in Pennsylvania. And so it's the first time that they've ever had a full-time creative arts pastor. So long story short, I was able to step into that role. And at that point we had three boys—they were 17 months apart, 17 months apart, two-year-old and one-year-old twins. And so life was kind of crazy, this crazy whirlwind. But we've been here now eight years.

Last year, I transitioned into a role with Stadia Church Planting as the content marketing coordinator, stepping out of that creative arts pastor role and basically doing video work for Stadia. And Jamie, during that same time, had kind of started part-time while the boys were very young, and then just kind of continually—I don't know, she continued to kind of step into really how God had gifted her in these different areas, and like that just kind of kept being affirmed, I guess. And so now she has a full-time position. And, you know, it's so great we still get to work together. We've always been kind of a ministry team.

Yeah, I'm kind of an early tech adopter. My family is like an early tech adopter, so I've been kind of playing around on the computer since I was little. And I had an Angelfire website. I learned how to code when I was 13.

Oh my gosh, Angelfire! So you had to put your own photos up, you know?

Yeah, and I talked to too many strangers on the internet, and it's a miracle that I'm still here today, I'll tell you. If I'm honest, but, you know, just kind of cool to see how God took those things that I was interested in and open to learning, and now I get the opportunity to use that. Which is, you know, I started coming back into that world with doing a mom podcast with my friend Krista. And so we did that like while we were staying at home. And then when we moved up to Pennsylvania, I got involved with doing the social media. We went to a big blogging conference out in New York that was like super inspiring to me back in 2012. And then that kind of was the catalyst to the social media stuff. I started doing our website and thinking more critically. And so I kind of shifted into a communications role at the church. And then with COVID, every time they'd ask, like, "What do we need to be thinking about as a church?" I'm like, thinking about online. Like, so it's such a potential for ministry. And like, what I love about online is like, you go from having limited access to the church family, to the church body, to now like you can find them 24/7 through the internet. So I think that's really cool. So I love this new opportunity that I have. I'm like kind of just embarking on, which is to be the online campus pastor for our church. It's really cool.

Yeah, so you've been director for three, four months at this point, just recently got ordained, as my understanding. That's awesome. I love the fact that your church is so serious about digital that they're ordaining you and equipping you and positioning you in the role. That's an exciting movement.

Yeah, I feel really excited. It's a really cool time at our church. We're in a lot of transition. We've had a rich history of ministry and reaching out to the community, and so it's really great now as we move into coming out of COVID, these new areas that were kind of untapped and we just kind of had waiting in the wings. So it's really neat to be a part of our church right now.

Very cool. Well, hey, I'm excited about this podcast because I actually have no idea how this conversation is going to go. It's a topic that can go many different directions, and let's just have some fun and see where it goes. So, you know, we've talked, and actually we kind of stumbled into a podcast similar to this topic but completely different. I'll get to here in a little bit because I've been trying to pull threads to really have this conversation. And Alex sent me an email, and it was like, "Oh my gosh, yes, this is it. We're gonna explore this topic right here."

So Greg Nettle, president of Stadia, we've had him here on the podcast. He is famous for asking me a line, a question every time he sees me, and it's with regularity. The conversation is something close to, "Hey, Jeff, how have you seen the tangible presence of God moving this COVID season?" And it's been interesting because I don't always have like a solid line towards that, you know? I hear like, you know, churches are doing things, and but the heart of what Greg's asking for is, is like, you know, at least my impression of it, it's like these Holy Spirit chill type of moments where you're seeing some things happen in context of what we're doing online. And I'm not saying it's been absent, but I'm saying it's been hard to like really get solid answers towards that. And even to the point of I would go on to Facebook groups and just like ask random like online ministers, "Hey, where are you seeing the tangible presence of the Holy Spirit moving?" And this is actually how he got connected with episode 99 with the—oh man, my gosh, I'm just blanking on his name—the guy who had like 26 people die in his church as a result of COVID. And Corey—and Corey, is it? Was his name? And he was telling the stories like, "Yeah, we saw the Holy Spirit move because 26 people died." And I'm like, "Okay, that is totally not the answer that I was expecting. That is an incredible podcast, but that's not what I was expecting to come out of this question."

And so I get this email from Alex here, and Alex is saying, "Hey, I struggle, and I'm literally reading here from the email: 'I struggle with not having the same feeling of transcendence as I do in a large auditorium full of people when I'm watching a service online. I struggle with not having the same feeling of transcendence as I do in a large auditorium full of people.'" And so what's interesting in this conversation is you've got...

Has been a pastor for a long period of time. Alex, you are literally, among other things, a video editor. I have a history of live production, and Jamie is coming into the role new, fresh perspective on things. Where, you know, really I want to explore this idea of what we do in the physical realm. The chills that transcendence, as you call it, Alex—is that God? Is that Holy Spirit? Is that something else? What's the biblical recommendation? What does it look like biblically? What does that come from? Is it missing online? Is it missing in our services? Is that a good thing? Is that a bad thing? I don't know. And so I just would love to maybe even explore this idea of what transcendence is in an online versus physical standpoint. So I just vomited a bunch of words right there. That was awesome. What are y'all thinking? You know, what's knee-jerk reactions coming off of this?

Yeah, so my question kind of came out of that online, completely online experience during COVID, and then kind of also looking at what other churches are doing and realizing that there are those moments that we can experience where we have some emotional response. But it was getting, you know, kind of getting used to being the church in a different way, worshiping as a church in a different way. And then kind of along with that, Eugene Peterson has a book called "The Pastor," and it's like kind of a memoir of his life as a pastor, and he talks about people looking for transcendence or like he calls it "God meaning" in three ways, kind of outside of the church. And it's like drug, sex, and rock and roll, basically, although he uses crowds instead of rock and roll. So he says historically, like even in ancient times, people would try to find like God meaning in crowds. And so I've always wrestled with that, like connected with a somewhat larger church and being a creative arts pastor and now the worship producer at the church part-time. You know, how do we—we don't want to emotionally manipulate people. But how do we, instead of looking for like kind of idolizing that experience that we have as a crowd, how do we use that to point to what we're at our actual truer longing is for that experience of the presence of God? And that feeling that we have together, I think, is kind of like a signpost, a pointing toward that crowd gathered around the heavenly throne. You know, that when we have those experiences in a large group—and it may not even be untrue, it may be at a sporting event or like, which has been kind of taken away now, right, too, or a concert—but when we experience those kind of moments of transcendence, rather than just like throwing them out, kind of like Peterson does, I think they can also point us to that longing that we have for what we're, this relationship that we were created in, this place that eventually will be with God. So that's kind of where all that came from. You know, and kind of thinking through then, okay, so how do we have those kind of moments? Or, okay, so Andy Stanley talks about how we can't make people fall in love with Jesus, but we can set up the date. So like, how do we set up the date online? Kind of, I guess, what that question leads toward in my mind. It's a great question, right? Because Scripture talks about how we're created holistically in the image of God, right? So this is kind of where the conversation turns a little bit theological, right? And so some pastors and leaders try to decry the emotional side of church because they want it to be more cerebral. They want it to be more of a thought-oriented kind of a thing, whereas others really embrace the emotional side to a degree where there's over-emphasis on this, right? It's interesting because our lead pastor was recording some bonus content for us, and he was bringing up the verse in First Corinthians where he talked about where Paul talks about how the Jews seek a sign—very emotional, right—and the Greeks look for philosophy—very cerebral—but we preach Christ crucified, which kind of embraces the whole of who we are, right? And finding that through a digital medium, I think it can be challenging. Can it? Yeah. It's Jamie. Like, how are you guys embracing some of that? Like, where you guys are at? Because I think that could be pretty tough.

Yeah, I think we're really just trying to make sure that all of our online interactions are leading relationally, because I think that's really kind of key. And how do we help people to break down these barriers? It never surprises me. You know, I'll ask somebody, you know, how they feel about church online, and they'll say, "Oh, I just don't want to be behind a screen." But some of that, I think, that's preventing them from having that experience and that transcendence. Transcendence is their comfort level with the medium. So like, they're not super comfortable with online interactions, and so, you know, they'll kind of be more of a spectator. Like, they see an online service as, "Let me put it on my web browser, and we're just going to sit back and watch it." So for us, like, we try to model some of that relational aspect because that gets people to open up. The relational aspect of, you know, hosting church online in a group gets people to be open to build that relationship and to be open to allowing their relationship with God to develop. Because that's when you start to experience the community when you're willing to be there.

I think the thing that I keep thinking about whenever someone is like, "I can't have a real interaction online"—I just looked up the trends of online dating and online marriage. We're now at one in ten people that are like, immediately, it's like one in ten relationships that are married or long-term commitments are starting online. And as people get younger, it's trending upwards. So I think now it was like 17—is with the younger generations, like 18 to 29 age range—it was from an October 2019 Pew Research thing that I looked at. But I'm like, man, if people can fall in love and meet their future spouse online, why can't you fall in love with God? And why can't you experience the joy and the spirit of God in these moments? So I think about that, and I kind of use that to say, "Hey, if you clear some of these barriers, you know, maybe it's the technology, you might be able to experience that a little bit better." And I have a great example of a transcendent moment that we got to see. Somebody had actually filmed it in their living room. Our church is very interactive with the special needs community in our area, and so they—a mom had filmed her adult son just in worship, like, and he was standing in his living room praising, lifting his hands. And here I'm thinking, here's a guy who is experiencing the spirit of God because he doesn't have any of the barriers that a lot of us have. He's not worried about, "Oh, well, I'm thinking about the next thing I have to do," or he's not worried about the communication, or the technology isn't a barrier for him because he's not, you know, he's just not thinking about it. But he's really open and ready to receive and hear the word of God and experience what God has for him in that moment. So it's really cool to see that video and see this guy just experiencing the presence of God, and then also for his mom, you know, to be able to sit there with him and just see how he has this relationship with God and is knowing him.

Yeah, yeah, I love that story. And I'm sure there are other stories out there like that. It's the unfortunate reality, I think, in this COVID season that churches rushed to launch their services. And that was like the only thing they did. Whereas, hey, let's get our services online, okay? Now we're broadcasting our weekend services. We're good for that one hour on Sunday. And by focusing on the services and maybe not the other things that make a church at church, we started creating this idea of a consumer where, hey, let me sit back, let me sit on the couch, let me grab my coffee, and let me watch as a spectator, you know, from the outside what's happening. You know, we've had conversations about, you know, not engaging, not getting involved, not leaning in, but instead leaning out of it. And so I think a lot of churches have struggled in this season, which is partially why I think that we've maybe lost a little bit of this because the expectation isn't there. It's, "Oh, let me watch this content," almost at the same level that I would watch a, you know, a Netflix series or a Mandalorian season two, which is incredible, by the way. But set that aside. And that's almost the sad thing. Is I may have—I'm gonna call myself out here—I may have more expectation over Mandalorian season two than I do walking into the one hour on Sunday. And I don't know if that's a me thing. I don't know if that's, you know, like, between me and God, where I just need to lean into that. But I think there's an opportunity for us to expect more from that. Does that relate to any of y'all?

Yeah, I think kind of along with the relationship and dating lines that we're talking about, in some ways it can feel for people who are used to—if you're not used to worshiping online, it can feel almost like being in a long-distance relationship. Where, you know, like, even when we were dating, I was living in Indiana for a while as an intern, and Jamie was interning at a place in Kentucky. And so we talk on the phone every night, but it's so different, you know, then like at that point in time. It still is, you know, having this like long-distance relationship versus being face to face. And so I think if we can remove as many of those barriers as possible for people, and also, you know, so I think it's kind of like to get to your question, I think it's kind of a both-and. Like, I think that there's a lot of personal, like individual responsibility that people have in coming to it with that kind of childlike faith and expectation. But I think there's also a responsibility for our churches to really cast a different vision for what online is and can be. And I think that's a big deal because so much of what we've done in the past has been so focused on the building and getting people to the building. And, you know, whole attractional models and so forth that are just all about what can happen on campus and in a building. And we've built language out to really, you know, get people invested in the building. And now we're at this place where we don't have that, and we've built all this vision casting around a building. We really need to reshape people's vision for what the church is. Like, just continued clarity on, you know, the revolutionary concept that God wants to dwell in us. And when Paul talks about, you know, "You are the temple of God," in First Corinthians, he at one point he's saying us in the individual sense, and the next time he says he's talking about you as the church, but still as people. Like, any metaphor that's used for a building in Scripture is about the people, you know? And so I don't think we lose anything by going online or having to be the church online. But I think part of the grief that we can experience or that we've had people experience is just everything that they've known and that we've maybe as a church, you know, kind of shaped their thinking around a building as opposed to, "No, you are that building. God is, you know, building into the church." I want to dig into that point a little bit there, Alex. And Jeff, Jamie, you guys chime in as well because you guys have been on the experiential creation side of it. Like, I come—

From more like the pastoral side where we're focused just on the teaching. Like, yeah, we want to talk with the worship leaders about some of the other stuff, but we're focused just on the teaching and even the guest experience and some of that other stuff. But talk about how like the building plays a factor in that. You know, in modern times we've got blacked out theaters so all the focus is on this moment. We've got kids environments so that the kids are away. Or even more traditional churches where it's stained glass windows and things that kind of point to wonder. Whereas our homes are built for functionality and family. And then especially in this season we got kids running around in the back. And so the environment doesn't really allow for focus and being in the moment to have that kind of transcendence. Or am I wrong?

Well, I think one of the things that we need to not be afraid of is kind of blowing up some of our traditional notions around when we worship. Like, we online, we don't have to worship at nine o'clock and ten. You know, if you want to gather with people online, yeah, but if you really need that spiritual time, maybe that means that you watch at seven p.m. on a Sunday night when somebody is there to help with the kids and you have time to kind of really connect with it. Um, that's, I think, one of the interesting things that I'm trying to break through is kind of my preconceived notions of how church should be done and then kind of taking that to, you know, the online platform of what does this mean now that we're digital and we have that twenty-four seven access. And I mean, I love that you mentioned the temple and some of that like worship moments because I'm thinking about, I felt like more of a consumer when I'm in a physical space than I do when I'm in a digital space. And I think that the reason why I would say is that because, if this is kind of a rough illustration, but I would say like physical worship is very easy to be two-dimensional unless I'm willing to participate. And so like, I still have that option of like not really participating and I can sit there and be observing and critiquing what's going on. But when I do decide to engage online, it can be three-dimensional because you can be more of an active participant in what's happening real time. So like, if I decide to participate in the chat or I decide to not just sing the worship songs but I'm actually like talking about, "Oh, this story meant so much to me when we were going through our adoption. I love this song," and be able to share my testimony. That's an opportunity that I would never have in a regular physical worship service. So I think that kind of is, in some ways, you get this veil that's being lifted, that's being torn, that was there in the physical space because it's just like, we shouldn't talk in church, you know? And there's certain things that are good things that we do in those physical spaces. But now in this online space, there's this third dimension that we can really explore and open up that will allow people opportunities to worship in ways that they've had to repress or hold back in a physical space.

Yeah, Jay Kranda talks a lot about that. And we've had them on the podcast here talking about the idea of four pillars for church online. And basically, it's four different methods or size groups that you can utilize with online. But once we get past just broadcasting our services online, there's a much more richer tapestry that we can utilize to develop the strategies. So things like, hey, you know what? Yeah, you can broadcast the services and call that like an online large gathering. But there's also an opportunity to gather people in social space, like twenty to twenty-five people, you know? Daniel M calls it, I think, social space. But like that size of a gathering, even physically digitally, digital only, there's an opportunity and you can kind of get that feel sometimes in Facebook groups where you're in. It's maybe a larger number of people, but you can interact in that social space area in that way. Jay talks about like the opportunity to do even small groups, maybe it's like ten people, six to ten people, maybe even as small as like one to three people engaging if it's more like a core discipleship group or something. But now you're engaging and conversing with people at that. And Jay also talks about like self-directed, where maybe it's a platform that's giving you the ability to, or you're listening, you know, Ray's earlier analogy of listening to a song on Spotify, Hillsong, that just hits you in the right moment in the right way and you're feeling, you know, the presence of God moving. I think as a church we were really driven towards creating that one method, but we weren't necessarily realizing, okay, there's other methods, there's other ways, there's other vehicles. And as much as we really want to engage with the people within our services, we're forgetting there's opportunities to engage outside of the services to really try to capitalize on the other one hundred sixty-seven.

So, Ray, Jamie, as you guys are doing digital ministry, are you? What does it look like to kind of capitalize on some of those other pillars or some of the other opportunities of the one hundred sixty-seven to really engage with people?

For us, really being more keyed into creating an experience that was really going to connect with people was something that especially as COVID started that we really started keying in on more because beforehand we were kind of slapping our, you know, live experience together and kind of throwing that up for online. We were able to create unique worship experiences where there was more engagement with the camera and even going back a little old school and having a few Sundays where we threw a choir that was socially distant like in the back and, you know, recording them and mixing it in, right? And that kind of thing lent a lot more to it because it gave a lot more of that Hillsong United type vibe where there's more people in the room. And, you know, and for all of us who are kind of musicians and church recognizes, so like when the bridge hits and it's supposed to be that moment where it's like all hands up and, you know, that the buildup's headed that direction, you really felt a lot more of that at home. And so, and especially with those songs that you know you're going to connect with, like, you know, "The Blessing" or "Here Again," you know, those songs that are almost like every worship leader is looking at their list and they're like, "This is the one. This is the one that people are for sure going to capitalize on." And so even online we saw a lot more people posting and sharing the videos of that experience than even of the message, you know, because it connected with them in such a big way. And big props, you know, to Andy Hernandez and Ben Stapley, you know, on our team who were really keyed in on, all right, how can we make sure that this is a real worshipful experience for people at home? And then making sure that our chat hosts were making, were engaging with people in the same way, just like what Jamie was talking about in that three-D experience, so that it wasn't just watch, it was also participate here and be part of active conversation. So it's not a simple answer in the sense of, hey, we just put up the broadcast and went with it. It's also, okay, so on the back end, how was it experiential for people as well? How were they receiving it? How are they sharing it? How was some of that going on?

Is there a challenge of, I mean, Matthew eighteen, I don't want to go biblical here, but it's the word where two or three are gathered together, it's a church podcast. Maybe I should go biblical. Oh, literally called the Church Digital podcast. Maybe I should actually quote the Bible. Digital, you're okay. Okay. Where two or three are gathered in my name, you know, and so like, I will be there. So what? How do we? How do we justify it? How do we rectify? How do we explain? Hey, Ray, you're feeling the presence of God while you're stuck in traffic on the turnpike, listening and you're jamming out the Hillsong where that right song hit you in the right moment when you know the Spirit's got you at the right place, but you're alone in your car. Um, some of the more worshipful expressions, the presence of God that I felt in my own life in this COVID season has been when I've been alone at my desk or I'm in a Zoom with six people scattered across the country. And so how does how do we rectify this whole "two or three gather in my name" in a digital context?

Well, you know what's interesting about that is sometimes I worry, as kind of I think what's already been declared on this podcast that we share, that we chase the group experience a little too much. You know, for better or worse, if this is you out there, my apologies, I love you. You know, sometimes I ask folks whenever they're clamoring, "Man, we're going to go see Hillsong Live tonight," like on the same Sunday as church. I'm like, "Guys, we're experiencing the same thing that you're looking for there at church, and they'll run to that concert experience because they believe that they're going to get church in some kind of way there." And I understand the transcendence of singing, especially with other believers across the city. There's validity in that. But don't forget the context in which we're at in the local church. Now, that being said, because we can't chase the individual side either, where sometimes we try to make Christianity a little too individualistic, but we can't disregard the individual side as well. And that, you know, we'll emphasize, especially, you know, hey, I come from a traditional Southern Baptist background. We emphasize that quiet time a whole lot in terms of devotional and prayer. Some of that can be worship as well. And so I got a little scripture here for you, Jeff, right? Like, because I knew that this question was coming in John chapter three, verse eight, where Jesus says, "The wind blows and referring to the Spirit, wherever it pleases, you hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it's going. And so it is with everyone born of the Spirit." And so there are times where, yeah, in a small group or even a small home gathering watching the service, man, the Spirit can hit you at the right moment and you're overwhelmed. And this is what happens. Or there are times in the quiet of our car where, much like Elijah in the Old Testament, where, hey, there was the sound of thunder and rumbling off in the distance, but the Lord wasn't there. But then a still small voice hits, yeah, and we're overcome by the presence of God and we feel Him moving in our lives in a very significant way in that moment. And so as Christians, and this has always been my fear because of my background that I just talked about, I always kind of fear treading to the emotional side. But I don't want to be so cerebral about it that I ignore it either because I don't want to ignore God's speaking in my life in a real sense, yeah, just because I'm wondering it and I'm fighting it with what's going on up here. Yeah. And so that's just for me, you know? And, you know, I don't know, Jamie, Alex, you guys got any thoughts on that? That's just some of the stuff that I've encountered.

Yeah, I like it. It kind of makes me think too, like, I love what you're saying and the idea of the still small voice, you know, that it's not in the earthquake, God's not in the fire, not on the whirlwind, but in that still small voice. And um, I was thinking about how, you know, when Paul's writing these letters to these early churches, there may be a number of Christians like spread across the whole...

City, but by and large they're in house churches. You know, they're in small gatherings of people, and you know, like again, kind of back to First Corinthians, man. We're like all in the Bible. Um, he, you know, he's they're having this crazy kind of back and forth on, you know, kind of what should happen in their worship gatherings, and he basically gets to the point where like he really says in First Corinthians 14, he'd much prefer them to kind of hear the truth of God so that so that if an unbeliever comes into the to their gathering, then uh, he says like the secrets of their heart will be laid bare and they'll fall on their knees exclaiming, "God is really among you," and you know, it doesn't, that's not a, you know, he's not talking about walking into this thousand person gathering or whatever. He's talking about coming to somebody's house, you know, and and taking in the, you know, the truth of God, and it and it it doing what it does like dividing, you know, to to joining marrow, uh, to paraphrasing, and like, you know, searching out the secrets of our heart and and making us realize that God is at work um, even today.

And I think that can happen in an online gathering just as easily as it can, or not just even in a, like again, we're talking about like large gathering kind of thing, but I think in all those different spaces there are ways in which that can happen as well. And and I think that that's so important to to not lose sight of.

Yeah, I think the um, authenticity piece in in being willing to be open to experiencing God and to hear God in no matter what, how we're choosing to engage, whether we're physically on a campus, whether we're behind a screen, whether we're in a small group, but just being willing that God could show up here. Um, you know, I I think about times that I've had like the spirit moving. There was one time I was like not a runner. I was doing one of those Couch to 5K things, and I'm running out, listen to my worship music, and I just like, just the spirit of God was just with me, and I just started crying. So I like, crying and running. It was just, you know, but you know, ever since that moment, I think that happened because I was already engaging with God um, and talking to him while I was trying to run or while I was trying to do whatever. And so, you know, I think if we can get these barriers out of the way, and as you know, online campus pastors and even church pastors, no matter what your role is, if we can make an effort to help people to remove some of these barriers to say God can show up in a Zoom group, God could show up on an online thing, God can show up in a Facebook group, if we can, if we can help them to see that and clear those barriers away, I think it's going to be really cool to see how God just uses the power of the internet to explode. And I think about like, you know, what DJ Soto does for me, that's kind of one of my barriers is the virtual reality. I love the idea of it, but I know for my boys that's not going to be a barrier for them. Like they watched a Fortnite DJ Marshmallow concert, and they're like, "Those so cool, I was awesome," you know, they're just jumping up and down. But that was that was an experience for them. And so I get excited when I think about what, you know, DJ Soto is doing and all these virtual reality things, and even how even in Twitch and all the gaming platforms, and how the future is kind of more open to these online relationships, online moments um, where people can experience the presence of God. I get really excited about that because I know that my kids are going to look for it there.

Yeah, no, I was just gonna agree with Jamie. I mean, I found that oftentimes I meet with God while I'm individual, when I'm, when I'm, you know, you said running, like that's that for me is like an easy time to just kind of focus in on who God is and kind of shut off the rest of the world in a world that's so busy. But also, you know, as you were pointing towards our kids and just kind of how they experience not just content but how content can really drive you in a specific to an emotion or in a direction and then in community, right? Like that's powerful in terms of how a lot of that is going to form the future in terms of discipleship and particularly in worship, right? Because kids aren't just going to want the experience there on Sunday. They're going to say, "What else you got?" because they're getting it everywhere else, right?

Yeah, there's definitely a challenge, I think, for the church to to step up holistically to embrace beyond the um, the one hour on Sunday to to, and I just even even virtual reality, to to make the commitment to get in there. DJ Soto, I mean, I love the fact that we've said his name like six times in this Bible um, but but the reality, the reality is is the only because I've been in the meetings where I've had the conversations with church leaders talking about DJ Soto, and and the reality is is the majority of people don't recognize that the spirit can move in places like virtual reality. Like that still is is a is a controversial concept, you know? The idea of "two or three are gathered" is taken in physical context, and they're not recognizing digital community as a community worthy to which really gets interesting because, you know, church leaders would say it's not, but the people who are like doing virtual reality or even digital disciples making discipleship are saying, "Okay, while you're saying that we're not allowed, that God's not moving in this space, we're showing you specific stories and testimonies of how in fact moving in this area, even though you're saying it can't happen." Um, which is really interesting. Like, how do how do we quantify, "Hey, God's moving in virtual reality," even though like major nationally recognized church leaders are like, "No, that's that's that's not, that's not good." Um, anyway, it's it's interesting being a guy that's usually like pushing the the edge of the limits and and kind of helping those people on the bleeding edge. It's awesome to kind of celebrate and to see those wins, and it's exhausting because you kind of get beat up along the way with that. So how how do you, how how do we reconcile, "Hey, like God's doing stuff in virtual reality, God's doing things through digital only church," interpretation of scripture may lean one way instead of, you know, maybe addressing it for for the other way. What how do we reconcile that, you know, scripturally, biblically, personally?

Yeah, I think it's uh, at least from my standpoint, I think it's um, incarnational theology, and that by that I mean, you know, God chose to take on human flesh as a first century Jewish man and work through that culture, that context, so that people could know him and come into a relationship with him. And he does that same thing constantly and throughout time, like not just through Jesus, but uh, continually um, right into the present day. Like when you think about um, the way in which we're really kind of translating church into a different context, and I think it's a really incarnational thing to do. Um, and and so like just as an example, um, like Ezra Nehemiah, there was like a time where the people again, they hadn't heard the word of God like in forever. And so they're like, the priests are like reading the word of God, and and somebody then is translating at the same time into the language that they can understand. And they actually have this emotional response. They're crying, you know, they're they're weeping, and they're like, you know, doing the whole Old Testament like tear their clothes and, you know, repent and sackcloth and ashes kind of thing. And um, God, you know, continues to do that throughout time, like kind of uh, come to people where they're at in the language that they speak um, in the cultural context that they're in. Um, you know, even the New Testament is written not in some, you know, like high style classical Greek. It's written in the Greek language of the everyday because it's talking to everyday people, you know? And if God can translate himself into, you know, uh, that common Greek, certainly he's gonna use zeros and ones and whatever else, you know, web uh, you know, HTML and, you know, whatever else to to speak to us today because that's where we're at. Um, and so I think for us it's kind of finding how how do we get with that, how do we how do we go to where God is working in the common everyday language in common everyday settings, whether it's web VR or whatever it is that we're experiencing today?

I think the Great Commission is really simple. Let's go and make disciples, not go to some other country or go to some state, go to some physical place. It's just to go. And so we just need to be looking for these places where people are gathering, and that's where we go. And so yeah, the real estate's digital right now, and that's the technology that we're dealing with. And you know, maybe fifty, sixty years from now, Lord willing, there's a new mode of communication that's out there, maybe it's like holograms or something. I don't know. Like I don't want to get too sci-fi on you, but you know, but the call is still to go and make disciples. So we've got to not be resistant, and if we don't go, who will?

Love all of that. Is there, and I don't, I don't know the answer to this, and like I said, I'm the, I'm the bleeding edge guy, is there a line where it's too far? I mean, this this is the type of thing that I wrestle with. Um, some of the crazy conversations that I'm having right now, and we'll we'll reconcile it later, DJ Soto is going to come on the podcast in December, and we're gonna we're gonna have some fun talking about this. But you know, um, what's what's the game called, MMO, uh, game, uh, Final Fantasy 14?

Final Fantasy 14 is actually ten years old. It was it was created in 2010. There are still twenty-two million people who are actively playing this game online, not because they want to beat up the the big bad, but because that's where their community is, and that's where their their friends are. And that and I just I look at that and I'm like, "There's twenty-two million people who play a video game because that's where they find community. You know, how can we create church in those communities?" Now the church in those communities, and I was I was actually talking with an MMO gamer yesterday who's interested in planting that, and not in Final Fantasy, but in another video game. And it's it looks different. It's not, I you know, and I talked with her about what her church is um, and and I'm listening to, and I'm like, you know, you're probably, I don't know that you're gonna get like the the chills, I don't know that you're gonna get that from a uh, from a church that's in an MMO video game. But when I look at the potential of what you could do in MMO, I think that it may look different, but I still think it aligns with what you could do um, biblically, what we're called to be, and the ecclesiology uh, that that we're called to be as the church. So anyway, it's really fascinating. Is there, I'm just curious because I always like asking crazy questions, is is there a line or is it trust God and see what he does? Like, how do we proceed forward into things like this where where where is too far? That's that's a fascinating thing, right? Because we're living in an era of video teaching, for instance. Like I I have, I come from a video teaching church, Jeff. You know, your family attends a video teaching church, and then Alex and Jamie, I saw that you guys do multiplayer. I don't know if that's your primary form of teaching or not, but um, but that right there is interesting in terms of, "Hey, Jeff, you communicate here. Hey, I don't know if this could happen." I remember once upon a time we were saying that with video teaching. "Hey, I don't know how people will respond to this if the guy is not on the stage. I don't know if the message will be conveyed in the same way." And yet here we are, you know, almost twenty years later, right? And we've got lots of folks coming to Christ, and now

We've got lots of folks coming across online and making, you know, kind of like what Jamie alluded to earlier in terms of relationship decisions—like long-term binding eternal decisions, you know, in terms of their relationship with Jesus. So is it possible that they could experience the emotional? There absolutely is. There's a line, uh, yeah, but there's a—I think there's a line also with in-person experiences too where we can, where we should be careful and we should take caution in terms of how manipulative we can be in terms of us of a service to lead people down the wrong path in terms of their relationship with Jesus. And that's where, you know, there's a number of different churches that have arisen or even denominations that have arisen almost based on that, right? Where they've taken people down the wrong path based on emotion, both Christian and otherwise, right? Um, true. I don't know if any of you have seen the documentary on Tony Robbins, but man, borderline folks are there, uh, you know, having emotional experiences, but at the same time it's not a Christian event. And so we have to be careful in terms of how we're doing that as well. Alex, give me your thoughts on that. Um, I was just thinking about, you know, especially I'm not much of a gamer other than like I think I stopped with like Lego Batman. Um, but you know, like I think and I'd love to see these—I hope to see them soon on some of these online gaming—I'd like to see how it works because my question would be how do you have a Christ-focused gathering in those spaces? Um, where you are worshiping together because at some point, like when are you worshiping the game or the thing that the commonality that brings you together and when does that become we're gathered together for Jesus? Like we're gathered together because God's on the throne wherever that place is. That would be my question. Um, in any space is how do we make sure that those gatherings are Christ-focused whether they step out of any other topic or commonality? I think that's cool, but it's got to be Jesus-focused at some point. Love, love that. It's got—I mean, obviously Christ-centered towards it. Hey, uh, yeah, so we're running short on time and so let's—I want to go ahead and wrap the plane, uh, land the plane, wrap up. A man, mixing totally mixing analogies here, not a good podcast day. Uh, we're crashing the plane at this point, I guess, because we've had too many, too many mixed drinks. Um, Alex and Jamie, uh, thank you for, uh, for jumping on on the podcast here. For Alex, for Jamie, for Ray, this is Jeff at the Church Digital and Stadia Trix Planning. Thanks for joining us here on the pod, and we'll see you next time here at the show. Y'all have a good day.