theChurch.digital's 2nd Annual 12 Hour Giving Tuesday Livestream

All right. Hey everybody. Welcome to the second annual 12 hour Giving Tuesday live stream put out by the Church Digital. Jeff here. Man, it has been it's been a month or so since I've been on stream. Been a little busy. Uh just got out of the hospital. I'm sure we're going to talk about that at some point. Uh but as much as I would love to celebrate everything uh that's happened and what God's doing in my life, we're really here to celebrate uh what God is doing, what the gospel is doing in digital and virtual space. And so thank you. Welcome everybody here uh to the live stream. Uh looks like we've got I'm going to see if my buttons work here. Looks like we've got Andy Mage coming in. Chino uh first. Yes, he is first. Music is a little hot. I hear that. And I am going to turn that down.

Thank you. Okay, I appreciate that. I'm I'm getting some Andy's our producer and getting some criticism. Uh, which I'm all about. Yes, the music was a little hot and getting getting it down as well.

Okay, that's got to go away. That button is wrong, Andy. I meant to like code it so that it would hide and not hide. And anyway, it's just it's two separate buttons. Screwed that up. Nigel. No, my friend. My friend is coming in uh first as well.

Hi. Hi, Jeff. Uh I'm glad she didn't call me Jeffy. Uh because that's uh what she does call me. She calls me Jeffy. Uh I've known Nigel for twenty some years. We were college together. We Amy was uh actually no, you didn't know my wife in high school, but uh good good friends all around.

Excited uh for Nigel and others to be on the live stream. Hey, listen. Uh it has been a uh rough uh been a rough run. Uh but I'm glad to be back in the seat here. Um I just want to put some disclaimers up front here. Um I will be drinking out of a coffee cup. It is water. It is not coffee. Uh the doctors would not be happy if I drank coffee. And so uh I'm I'm not drinking coffee, but I just I like this better than a water bottle. So, and if you see me popping pills or all sorts of other things, uh yes, I'm I'm heavily medicated at this point in in my life, but we'll get more into that here in a little bit.

With uh with the Church Digital, our goal uh with this Giving Tuesday live stream and our end of the year campaign is to raise $50,000. Our our goal is to literally uh 2x our budget here in into the new calendar year uh while 10xing our our impact. If you see the Church Digital, we're at the verge of scaling. We've built a lot of systems for scale and, uh, we just need a little bit more, just a little bit more to to really see things explode, uh, in in a big way.

So, uh, now you may be saying like, you know, Jeff, you know, what's what's a little bit more? Like, I I want you to really appreciate, and I'll say this throughout the day, uh, our our our annual budget in the last fiscal year was $75,000. Like um everything that we're doing, everything we're going to talk about globally, every all the trainings, the equippings and multicontinents, the the equipping and empowering people to be digital missionaries globally. Um yeah, about $75,000, maybe 76, 75 and change. And uh so like one of the things that I just I love about the Church Digital. And one of the things that hopefully you'll hear throughout this story, this um uh this stream is is that um we've managed to figure out a new model of of ministry. All all everybody you see here is on on the stream uh is either a volunteer or a volunteer or a fractional leader. You're going to hear me cough a lot more today, I'm sure.

A volunteer or a fractional leader. And what what that means is um well, I don't pay them what they're worth. The Church Digital does not pay them what they're worth. As a matter of fact, like I I don't have a full-time salary. I I'll I'll disclose right up here at the top. I make $1,000 a month off the Church Digital. $250 a week. And um and and you know, you you can ask the the people that run the books. Uh if months are are tight, I'm the first to cut my paycheck. Um which is often with the Church Digital. And so, uh, my my point is is that we've managed to figure out a new model of of ministry and we're experimenting towards moving forward with that. One that's not a full-time uh salary and one that's not um beholden to mortgages because, you know, we're completely digital global organization. Uh instead, we've figured out this model that lets us be far more agile, experimental, uh and leaning on on volunteers and in fractional leaders.

So, everyone you see with the Church Digital does not get a paycheck. Nobody, I'm sorry, nobody gets a paycheck. I'll say it that way. Um towards that, but I'm excited to hear their stories. I'm excited for you to hear and start to understand what God's doing in digital virtual space uh through uh these men and women. Last I counted, I think there's like nine or ten countries. Uh probably one, two, three, I I would say four continents probably involved in this. You know, our leadership has never been in the same room at the same time. Um uh our senior leadership has, not even talking about the the volunteers. As a matter of fact, majority of the people on the stream I've never met um in real life, but even as as we're able to jump in in Google Meets and and Zoom calls and and and interact with each other on WhatsApp or Discord, you know, you start to see that relationships develop uh through this. So, hey, let me put this disclaimer out there. We are we're doing a um uh we are this is a a fundraising event and so for the next 12 hours you're going to hear me cough and uh actually I'm looking forward to having other people talk more than me today but um u this is a fundraising event uh and so if you'd like to give we've already had a donation from Nigel no thank you Nigel um you can go to uh the Church Digital /g the Church Digital g uh and there's a you can watch the live stream on that page, the schedules on this page. Uh a list of our projects, some of the things that we're raising for are on that page. Uh as well as our um uh donor form exists on that page. Uh you know, I'll I'll listen, you want to give me blockchain or crypto, you want to give me crypto, I'll take crypto. It's on the page, but you know, nobody gives crypto. But please check out the Church Digital /g uh for more information on that. And just another housekeeping thing, it's kind of cool. I I I like this up front. Um we were given a $5,000 uh matching donation to open this up. So, uh and and I'll be saying this uh until we we make we make it. Um you know, our goal is $50,000, which is awesome. Uh and I'm excited about that. We've got $5,000 to open up. Uh, and if we, the Church Digital, can collect $5,000 today, uh, this individual, uh, will match that and give us 5,000 back. It's kind of a jerk move. No, I'm kidding. It's not a jerk move, but it really was was nice of this individual to set up a $5,000 donation, but we got to work for it. And so, we do have to raise $5,000 uh off the bat. We've actually got a couple matching donations, a 5,000 and a 2,000 I think that we've got to go through. And so hopefully maybe in some others we're talking about doing it as well. But I listen um here's here's what I know of the years uh that I've spent with the Church Digital. The Church Digital we've been around since 2016, a nine-year organization. Uh and and over those nine years, we've had nine different nine different looks, nine different approaches, nine different uh you know, we were working with physical churches. We were doing hybrid a lot during COVID and um you know, we were fidget a lot of you have heard me say those words in and so many different approaches towards digital ministry. I have never been more excited. I've never been more excited than what we're doing now, empowering digital missionaries globally. Like for the first time, I really feel like this is the sweet spot. Like we we have found our rhythm. We found our our place. Uh we found people that are are interested in in moving forward. You know, it's interesting. I've had maybe I don't gosh, I always hate to put a number on this. I used to track the numbers. Uh we had maybe I stopped counting around 700. I had over 700 conversations easily with people that that tell me this. I feel like God's calling me to do something. I talk to my pastor about it. He says it, you know, the gospel doesn't work that way. I talk with my denomination about it. They don't want to experiment or they don't have the time or resources to I talk with my spouse and friends and they're uh not they don't know how to support me because they don't even know if it's a good idea or bad idea. So, is the idea of digital evangelism? Is that good or bad? Literally 700 conversations at least. You know that that was like a couple years ago when I stopped. God is moving. We're seeing God move and we're seeing people start to recognize the opportunities to to move and to utilize his power in in digital and virtual space.

A and so what we the Church Digital have done is we've become that that ecosystem. We've become that that network. I mean I I I don't want to say denomination but almost because there is no denominational support because there is very little pastoral support. We have become that uh for these uh for the people for our digital missionaries. Literally setting up equipping uh training centers, equipping cohorts uh to equip people to be digital missionaries and and mobilize them, send them out, get them connected to ongoing um uh community through peer-to-peer uh decentralized networks. There's so much stuff that that we're we're doing here. So excited to see what what's happening. Um, and I I'm really excited that I and a couple others have come on and uh and and co-host this with me. Uh, but I get to spend the next 12 hours with you talking about what God is doing in digital and in virtual space. So, um, let's do uh let's do this.

Um, I'm trying to look at my time here. I got a couple. I got I got Cindy Lamb. Uh Cindy Lamb is from Hong Kong. She's one of our she's a she's a digital missionary. She's doing some really interesting artwork uh in in Hong Kong. And Cindy also hangs out with me um like a lot of mornings. Well, mornings for me, you know, because time zones are a thing. You know, if if I could wave a magic wand, if if God gave me one wish, I I'd be like, I don't know how this would work, but time zones are horrible. And so, if time zones could go away and we'd all could be on one clock, that that's great. But uh we'll get with Cindy here in in a little bit.

Some of the you know some of the negativity uh around what we're doing uh is centered around that it's not in the building and and there's a a biasness towards uh digital missionary work uh or at least that it's it's challenging or taking away from what's in the building. And you'll hear me say this a lot over the course of the day. Um we do something different digitally to reach someone different digitally. The people that we're reaching in digital and virtual spaces, um well, they're not the people that go to church buildings. You know, I'm talking about a uh a Satanist neopagan who found Christ in virtual reality. Uh I'm talking about a uh a dechurched individual who came back to Jesus and came back to the church uh through a Facebook group. Uh I'm I'm talking about uh an individual millennials at the lowest point of his life uh who found Christ uh through a Twitch and a Discord church, a gamer church. Uh look listen you, it's not that we're challenging. It's not that we're going against the building. We're not conflicting with the building, we're complimenting the building. You know, it's interesting. I've I've I've heard it said that we need the we need the buildings. We do. We need the buildings. I I work with buildings all the time.

I I we need the church buildings to exist, but at the same time, uh we also need to thank you, uh Jason Morris. Uh but in addition, we also need um the micro church.

We need the workplace ministries. We need the digital churches. We need all sorts of options that are out there. Jason, let me know if my mic is good.

Hopefully that mixes a little better now. And uh yeah, so that is that's what we're doing. We are trying to help people um become digital missionaries to take the gospel into digital or virtual space and at the same time uh plant uh churches in these spaces in in in in my opinion uh you need all of these different models to complete the great commission if we're ever going to. And and so for us to reach people, let's use digital as a way.

Not that everyone, not that everyone will be reached digitally. I know that's not true. Uh but enough people are going to be reached digitally to make it worthwhile.

And that's the heart behind what we're doing uh with the church digital. So, okay, I think I got my mix. I noticed, yeah, my settings were a little off here.

Uh, I I do appreciate it. If uh you know, let me just hit the here. Um uh Melanie is saying uh yeah, hand pink waving.

I I always love those. Uh yeah, Bible with the battles. We're going to be hearing from Demarcus here in a little bit. Let's go.

Giving Tuesday with TCD. Excited about that. Uh we got a couple people nicely telling me my music is too loud. Uh but yes, I I am uh I should be good to go at this point.

And the producer, Andy Mage, the person who I listen to on all creative things, says, "Yeah, I sound good now." So, I'm happy. I want to figure out how to get my uh I I need an icon on on my uh on my face on my uh YouTube like profile.

I don't I don't have an icon. Looking at that, I realized I don't. Andy, you don't use the A very often. I don't I don't see that very often from you.

So, that's that's interesting that it even popped up. Listen. Hey, let's let's go ahead and get started. Um, I'm going to uh to bring on on Cindy uh Lamb and uh let's uh get started in in the conversation.

So, hey Cindy, how's it going?

Good, good, good.

All right.

Can you hear me?

Yeah, I do. You you you you look good on camera. You sound good. Uh what what time is it in Hong Kong? What is it? Uh 9:15.

Yeah, in the evening.

Yeah. How how was your Tuesday?

How was my Tuesday? It was really good. I played two hours of tennis. Yeah. Today.

That's a that's a tough life, Cindy. Two hours two hours of tennis. Very very cool. Um, hey, so tell tell us a little bit like what you do. By the way, I've I've got your your graphic files.

I can pull that up when it's time. But tell us a little bit about uh the the church digital uh kind of like what your take of it is from from somebody literally on the other side of the planet.

Um can you repeat your question?

I don't quite get what you.

What's your what's your opinion? What's your view? Uh how how are you connected with the church digital?

Yeah, it's like I um attended a conference in April and then um that was very good and I just started you know doing equipping uh digital missionary course the EDM course.

I did it twice. Once in the summer and I just finished it one uh uh in November and I just found it really good.

Yeah.

Okay. So, equipping digital missionaries, that's the cohort that we use uh to train digital missionaries globally. Now, Cindy, what exactly? Let's talk about your specific um ministry.

Um what do what do you do digitally? What does it look like for you? What do I do digitally? Well, first of all, I'm an artist.

So, I first start out with art exhibition, you know, the traditional way and then have like a physical exhibition inviting people to um look at my paintings.

Um that's always got like a um like a Christian message and it's always got um a message that to encourage people and then I um extended it into animation media.

I capture my uh paintings and my animation video and that I have a YouTube channel. So that was like having um a lot of content online and also use next step journey to have like um just sort of some interaction with people so people can click on the journey each step and just

try to um you know like connect with people online.

Very cool. So let me show some of this. Um I know she's got um hopefully I'm going to press the right button here.

Yeah, there you go. Uh, and so this is some of her animation artwork that you can see here. Uh, that some of the stuff that that you program.

Now, you talk about um like uh connecting with people. I know you use a platform called Next Steps uh that's created by our friends over at Jesus Film.

Um h have how does that how does that work where you're able to people see the artwork and then kind of what happens next?

How do you build relationships uh with people uh digitally? Basically um so far I haven't built any relationship with strangers like basically I have a next step journey and I will um send it to a friend and then I will ask them to look at my video like my animation video and then

um I would say oh I if you're interested in Christianity click on this uh tab and then uh that will point them to a website or if they want to find out more about Christianity or for someone to pray for them they can also click on the step, you know, the tap on

next step. So, it's just a one way further from just consuming content, you know, like the YouTube channel thing.

Yeah.

What what stories, what success, what have you what have you seen coming out of this as you're talking to friends, people you know, and maybe challenging them to to go deeper.

What What does that look like for you? Um well so far you know it's all been well received because I used to work in finance and investment bank.

So I invite people to my um exhibitions and I send them my animation videos like all the time and that's well received. I mean because like I'm more comfortable using arts and exhibition animation videos to do my evangelism rather than asking people to go into church.

So, so far I think I've um sown a lot of seeds and uh nobody have um received Christ. Oh, actually no, that's one person that uh accepted Christ in my art show.

That was like a physical art show. Uh but I've been sowing a lot of seeds in the corporate world.

Yeah.

Very cool. Um and and one you said one person accepted Christ and and some of the things we'll talk about, you know, with the church digital, we we don't look at a gospel conversation. I don't want to get into the weeds, but you know, even helping somebody grow closer to Christ, whether they're an atheist becoming an agnostic or a consumer Christian moving closer to a deeper understanding of discipleship, like it's that's all in in the same direction.

And so with the the church digital, we've got a much broader scope of of what ministry looks like. And and honestly, it's it's really rewarding to help people take those those next steps along the way.

Well, Cindy, I know um one of the things I I I love about you is, you know, we when we do our open offices, for me, it's usually 7:30 in the morning.

For you, it's probably 8 or 9 at night uh when when you come on. Um Cindy, I I do a couple open offices a week where I'll jump into a Google Meet room uh and just, you know, say in our communities, I'm here.

Come hang out and talk. And and it's always fun because we'll get people from all over the planet coming in and and hanging out here in America.

Cindy from Hong Kong, uh India, the Middle East, Africa, Europe. It's it's really a a cultural mixed bag of of sorts. uh where people just come in and and talk and share what they're doing and and um and and learning and going through in life and and so uh you know Cindy in

in like do you have any uh positive thoughts or any any experiences uh on those on the open offices?

Um yeah that was really good. I mean I really appreciate that. I just felt that even though we are all connecting online, I feel that there's a lot of like care, you know, like people will honest each other, you know, how you doing?

How can I pray for your ministry? So, I think that um that's really good.

Yeah.

Awesome. Well, uh Cindy, and if what is your what is your YouTube channel?

Um how can people find you or get more information uh about you?

It's called Art Animation Therapy. It's not animations. It's art. A art t and then animation therapy.

Okay, I'm gonna pull it up real quick. I meant to do I should have did this in advance. I'm sorry. YouTube.com/art. Say it again.

Art and then n i m a t i o n therapy.

Yeah, I totally should have got that from you in advance. I You know what? I I had it I got it booked marked somewhere. Um,

doesn't matter.

That's okay. Hey, if they want to get more information on you overall, Cindy, how can they do that?

Um, they can find me on Instagram, it's like Cindy KSLM. C I N D Y K S Lamb.

Or you can find me on Facebook, just Cindy Lamb. And it's just me with my dog, my cocker spaniel.

Awesome. And when you look at the icon, you will you will find

You have a cocker you have a cocker spaniel.

I I had a cocker.

I used to have one.

Okay. Used to.

I love cocker spaniel.

Yeah, they're they were they were good dogs.

Well, Cindy, uh thanks for thanks for hanging out with us today. Uh and thank you for the work that you're doing uh globally. How did you first connect with us?

You talked about the conferences, but actually I I don't I don't know that. How did you hear about the church digital? Um even it's like because I'm connected with someone from create international because I used to do a course called um you know like um um children's book course for create international and

I was in the Scott server and they said oh there's a conference in April by the church digital. So I just you know said hey you know I just have a look the conference and then I started going to the open office and then I started doing the um equipping digital missionary course.

So, you didn't do anything with us until the conference in April.

Wow.

No,

you you you you dove in.

I'm I'm just in in my mind thinking I thought you were you were longer than that. I didn't I didn't realize the conference was the first thing. The conferences she's talking about are our uh digital missionary conferences. Uh the conference in April had uh 1,500 people register from 85 90 countries something like that globally.

Uh we had, 00 people show up day of. It was a it was a it was a lot of fun. Uh we we do uh two conferences a year and so uh it's a great way to meet new people like for example uh Cindy.

Um, and then as well uh it's a great opportunity to um uh to to move uh just to build more relationships, get people connected into into the ecosystem as as well.

And there's so many organizations that are we'll talk about that later, but so many organizations are excited about what we're doing. Anyway, Cindy, thanks for hanging out with us today.

Um, feel free to hang out with with the live stream and and appreciate everything you're doing uh in Hong Kong for the kingdom.

Thank you.

All right, y'all have a good You have a good day, Cindy. And then there was me. All right. Hey, listen. So, some interesting things came up in the Cindy conversation.

Number one, Cindy was talking uh about the the conferences overall. This is an interesting fact. I don't say this a lot. through the church digital for us to do a digital missionary conference that one conference that Cindy talked about cost about $20,000.

Yeah, that's it's it's it's a lot. You know, once you look at the tech, the marketing, everything that goes into it. By the way, the conferences are free.

Um we we do the conferences like the uh the digital missionary conference for free. And so we offer that available to train uh someone like Cindy to be a digital missionary.

That EDM course that she had talked about cost about $145 uh for the cohort. It's a five six week cohort. Six week cohort I think now and so it's about 145 bucks uh to do that.

And once again, we the church digital, we offer that for for free. Uh because you know, as you'll discover, a lot of our people are in um India, uh China, not China.

Well, actually some interesting work in the in the east, but I can't talk about that. Uh in in some other spaces. Uh but we need help uh to make that that happen.

Um, you know, like I said, it's it's a little bit of a a 2x. Just a little bit more can help us go a very very very far way long way as these systems start to scale out at the global level.

And so we're excited about that. Uh, and so, hey, for uh to give to the church digital, uh, please just go to the church.digital/give.

The church.digital/g. digital and uh you can fill out the donor form uh that's on there as well. Let's just hit up the the the chat room a little bit here.

Uh Andy says uh 2 hours of tennis sounds like a dream. Um my mom I think that's my mom. Yeah, I have I have no idea what Oh, 4926 is but my mom says Jeff.

That's always nice of her. Um, let's see what she says down here. Praying for all the participants today's program of Giving Tuesday. Love you.

My mom's awesome. My mom is awesome. She's a bit much sometimes. I love mom. Way to go, Cindy. Proud of Cindy. Uh, yeah, she did a great job.

Jason Morris JMO there. She was just telling you to go to your room. No lie detected, my friend. 48 years old. She still has that effect on me.

It's true. Uh, Sparky PR. Uh, yo, nice to see you. Long time. You guys are doing great. Um, who are you? Do I know you?

I don't recognize the I I don't recognize the name. Fill me in. Would love to know. I mean, yeah. Appreciate that though. Hey everyone coming in as well.

Why is that not clicking? There you go. Arno, Arno, my friend from South Africa. Arno Ptorius. Man, Arno, it has been a minute. I want to catch up with you here in in in a little bit.

I man I dude like I I just I yeah you I I could almost stop the stream right now just to have a conversation uh uh with Arno.

That that's really cool man. Thanks for jumping on that in here as well. Um we got Julie coming in. Hey everyone. Julie will be on uh in a in a little bit coming on from Mexico.

But Arno, man, it was it was great great to see you the bearded wonder down in South Africa. Uh, and so, hey, let's uh let's get back into the stream here uh a little bit.

Uh, 10x our vision, 10x our impact, 2x our budget. Help us, the church.digital/g. Uh, but let me bring on our our next individual here.

Uh, you know, it's funny. We just had my mom on here. Uh, now I'm going to bring on my long lost brother here, uh, Steve.

Hey, Steve. How you doing, Jeff? Doing good, my friend. So, this is this is Steve Reed. Uh, listen, I took you all the way to Hong Kong.

Uh, Steve is on uh West Coast, Florida. Not Naples, but near Naples, right? Naples. No, a little north of that. Little north. And so, uh, Steve Reed uh, no relation whatsoever, but uh, Steve also hangs out with me in a lot of the open offices.

And so, people always think we're related. Uh, I I guess it's the the the facial hair, but to to whatever end. How's it going, Steve?

Good. My brother from another mother, but the same godly father. That's Oh. Oh my gosh. Look at that. You You actually put some thought into that one.

Uh putting that together, man. So, uh so update me just real quick cuz I I don't feel like I've talked to you in in a in a couple weeks or so.

What's going on in life? Well, you've been busy chasing in some of the wrong circles lately, but uh yeah, every everything good's happening.

I thought I would just tell a quick story about how we met and Yeah, go for it. It Yeah, it was because I had felt called that I needed to go out and start doing my part in filling the great commission.

So, after talking to my wife, it became evident that we were not going to be moving to subsaharan Africa or anywhere like that to do our job.

I decided, okay, there's got to be a better way. I'll go searching online. Is there a way I can do this from the comfort of my home and do it online?

And I basically came down to two different choices uh that look like things I could do. And Jeff was one of them. He thought that uh I might not like the structure of the other one, but you know, please feel free to check it out, do whatever you want.

And within a matter of a few weeks, I quickly determined that uh he was correct. and and I like the structure of the church digital a lot better.

And I and I will say I've been through their EDM course. I now lead one of their courses and um one of their groups.

And I have got to say I am more convinced than ever. I was convinced when I did it, but I am more convinced than ever that this is a place for you to invest some time and some money if you can't do it elsewhere.

and that is spreading the word digitally. Just think about it. There's a lot of people who are unchurched, dechurched, never even heard of it.

They're never going to find a physical church again in some cases or period in others where they might find uh the joy and wonder of knowing Jesus.

But online, you stand a chance to reach a bunch of those people. I don't remember the exact numbers now off the top of my head, but it is crazy insane the number of people that have online access and the number of pe hours that are spent every day online.

So now you can reach them. And the church digital is is getting down and dirty and learning how to do it everywhere. Uh I'm not big into gaming, but they've got a group of people who do it in the gaming atmosphere where a lot of people are locked in and spending a lot of time. Uh, personally I do some YouTube and Facebook stuff, but it doesn't matter where you're at. Their course and their leaders will help you figure out a way to do it.

And and that's how I found Jeff and the Church Digital. And uh, I strongly encourage you to join in, sign up. Like Jeff says, he doesn't charge a fortune.

He he doesn't even charge anything. So join in. There you go, Jeff. That's my story. You know, it was it was funny. We actually the church digital, we pretty much own the Google term digital missionary.

Um the one of the one of the other probably there's probably three people that are in the top levels. Um one is our one is our board member um Jesse Carbo who'll be on later with digital missions project.

He just uses the term a lot in his marketing. And so the two of us pretty much lock up, you know, the majority of the top, you know, Google trends on that.

The other uh digital missionary course, there's another digital missionary organization. It's actually a corporation, and the guy charges about $5,000 uh to go through his course.

He's a friend. I I love him, but that's just way too much money. And so we we want to see these ideas scale. We want to see these ideas go global.

and putting a $5,000 course on a $5,000 price tag on, you know, the ability to to see the gospel move globally. Um, you know, that's going to be a great limiter.

And, uh, we want to be able to empower even people like Steve uh to do what they're doing u globally. You know, I it's it's funny, you know, Steve as as a as a boomer.

Can I if I can say can I say boomer? Can I say boomer? No, I can say boomer. Yeah. It's nicer than some of the things you've called me.

That's true. Um, you know, Steve Steve as a boomer is is going to be is going to do things differently digitally um than than I will and and bring in a Gen Z or a Gen A, bring my kids in and they're going to do something completely different as as well.

And so all our trainings are meant to be contextualized and adapted. Um, and and that that's part of the power of it. you know, later on we're gonna we're going to meet people that are that are doing the EDM material equipping digital missionaries, our cohorts in Europe.

We're going to meet people in Africa. We're going to meet people um in in that are that are starting it in India. We're going to meet people that are doing it in Pakistan and uh some of some of that area.

Like there's um we're seeing this spread out and get contextualized into these unique spaces. And it's and to be honest, it's it's a lot of fun uh to see it and and to be a part of that.

Uh you know, I know Steve, we were talking about uh with with EDM to do a full cohort. Uh it's about $1,500 uh for for a cohort to to exist.

And that's platform costs, that's training costs. Um man, I even want to get to the place where where we we can pay our leaders off off some of what what's coming in and doing that.

uh leaders like Steve that that teach the courses now um like it's they they they teach it for free and and and so uh which is awesome.

I appreciate Steve's heart and the heart of the other outpost leaders. But uh the desire is is cuz as Steve and and a lot of our other missionaries are trying to to fund raise, everybody's bivocational.

um to be able to use the church digital to help them fund for the for the mission work that they're doing is a strong desire.

And so, man, Steve, I can remember the first time I met you and uh and you you know were asking some really good questions for for a boomer uh for an old guy and uh leaning into it.

There it is, the old guy. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Man, it was it was so good. Uh and and just to see how you dove in to everything with the church digital.

Um you know, you're Steve's also is u one of these guys that we'll jump into these open offices, especially the early ones for me.

Um almost just, you know, sometimes Steve, I don't think you really have anything to talk about as much as you just want to hang out and and make sure like there's critical mass and energy in the room.

And um it's it's it's a lot of fun to to to kind of hang out with you. When I want Well, and I want to make sure once you struggle to get up that early in the morning for you, there's somebody to talk to in case nobody shows up.

Yeah. You know, I I will say that um you know, my my my life uh pre this weekend, you know, a lot more coffee was helping to get me going in the morning.

Now it's it's not coffee, it's water. I'm disclaiming. It's water in the coffee cup. And uh yeah, so it's going to be interesting those those 7 7:30 a.m.

meetings where I've got to like, you know, be friendly. My uh that even even this 8:00 start time this morning for the live stream, 8 o'clock Eastern was was hard for me, man.

I I don't my my mornings. I mean, I I listen, I'll work till 3 in the morning. I don't care. But, you know, get me up at 8:00, you know, where I got to like talk to somebody.

You know, we've we've got people in the west. We've got people in California. We'll do a meeting at at like 8 or 9.

That's like 5 or 6 in the morning there time. I I don't I always I I always feel like I have to apologize. I'm like, I'm sorry, y'all.

And I don't know how they do it, but somehow they do it. So, hey, Steve, tell me what as as you're in those open offices talking with people globally.

Um, yeah. just what's your what's your take you know globally culturally like what's been your impression of some of those open offices that we have you know it's amazing I was talking to my wife the other day about this because of the open offices and because of the classes uh that I

have done I have got to meet more people globally than I ever have in my life because my wife jokes a lot that that I don't even like to leave the peninsula and she's not talking about Florida.

We have a little sub peninsula. I don't even like leaving alone traveling globally. So, I've really had limited exposure to that until the church digital.

And uh I can tell you it has not only blown my mind uh the different aspects where people are coming from that find you, but it's quite apparent that you're also blowing their minds and and you have opened up a door for them to express and know more about the word and spreading it than they otherwise would have had a chance to do. It's really opened up the world for a lot of people. Yeah, it's my hope is it's it's funny as as a guy who's facing a a bypass surgery.

Evidently, uh according to the doctors, I have 100% blockage in my um widowmaker artery in my heart and a 70% blockage in the one of the adorning chambers, one of like the adjacent branches of of the heart.

Um, which by the way was a complete accident to find that. I kind of like accidentally fell into that ex like it's crazy story I'm about to tell you later.

But you know, legacy and what I'm leaving behind really is sticking with me right now. And um, you know what? If if what I leave behind is a bunch of people who are excited about sharing Jesus globally, who are using digital to uh escape persecution in India, uh who are figuring out how to be the church in China um digitally so they can stay underground. Like there's, you know, if that's what I leave behind, so be it.

Uh, and so it's been a uh just an incredible um incredible journey. You know, I don't I don't you know, it's funny like when when I got the bad news about the the needing to bypass, I just I remember actually I texted a friend of mine, one of the guys I go to who's actually in South Africa, um Nigeria actually, sorry. I text a friend of mine who's in Nigeria and and and I told him I was like, "Yeah, I'm um I just lost control of this whole thing and and and he he texted back, Facebook messaged back.

He said he said, "Jeff, you never had control. That's the problem." He said, "It was just like that." Amen. If you thought you had control, you were you were kidding yourself. You never had control of yourself. And uh and and that's just it, man. I um I I hope that we don't have control and that God does something beyond what we expect.

And and that's that's really the heart behind, you know, 10x uh the impact. Okay, God, we we we have Piddley and with the Pidley, we've managed to build something decent. Um God, do something in this moment with this decent that only you can do. we're presenting you with five loaves and two fish like go to town and uh and and that's our hope is that God would would do something um in us but honestly through you uh many many of you like Steve Steve's a Steve's a donor Steve supports the the the church digital financially and and I'm going to ask a lot of you to do the same thing to to to financially support the the church digital whether it's a a one-time gift or or monthly gift.

And you can do these donations at um at the the church.digital/g thechurch.digital/g. Our goal is to raise $50,000 over the course of today uh and then over into the the end of the year.

We do have a $5,000 matching donation right now on the table. So, for every dollar you give right now, uh we'll have a matching dollar to go with it.

So, please jump on that. Uh the church.digital/g. Steve, as we're wrapping up with you, my friend, and any anything else? Yes, I'm glad because I was going to ask for a chance for something to close on because I I wasn't sure if you'd brought up your current situation.

So, I just want to take this moment to say you're looking at a guy here who his dedication and his heart towards this church digital has been what has made it what it is today.

He just left several days in the hospital finding out the news he just shared with you and looking for a surgery coming up in the next day or two if I'm right.

But in spite of all that, here he is dedicated to do a 12 hour. So, here's to you. Jeff is do you know if it wasn't for you this church digital would not have existed in the first place and I don't want to hear any more talk about a legacy cuz you're going to be around for a long time. Ah well well played. The surgery is actually going to be I I haven't scheduled the surgery yet but I think the surgery will be in January.

Um they I I also have the flu right? So, I have the flu and I have I have a heart issue and uh and so the the flu is um the doctor wants that the surgeon wants that out of my system before they cut me over.

They're they're worried about um pneumonia or whatever. So, yeah. So, anyway, uh it'll be an interesting Christmas uh and in in the end of the year, but uh I do think by the end of the year we'll we'll get something we'll have by early next year.

I think uh I somehow in the midst of this 12 hour stream I have to call to schedule that appointment. So we'll have to figure out when that's going to happen.

But uh at some point but Steve, thank you so much. I hope you got somebody covering you so you take a break at some point today.

But yeah, always a blessing to see you, Jeff. Uh Leighton's going to step on for a couple hours. Um and and to be honest, some of these outpost leaders I'm going to be like, "Yeah, just you you just, you know, do your own thing. You talk." Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I can understand why you wouldn't want to try. Simon doesn't need me to talk for him. Simon can Simon can interview himself.

It's It's fine. Anyway, Steve, thank you very much, sir. Uh, I'm gonna I'm gonna go ahead and let you go. Uh, so 10x the Oh, I keep doing that.

I keep pushing the wrong button. Um, 10x uh the vision, 2x the budget. Um, help us get the gospel uh in into digital and and virtual spaces globally.

You know, one of the areas that we're we're really wanting to um to expand into is in India. Later on today we're gonna have uh people from India from uh northern India uh who's reaching the Hindi people as well as eastern eastern truly this way eastern India which is uh reaching the Bengali people and and so our our hope is is to start to launch outpost regional networks in those in those India spaces. we've already got leaders in mind that we're wanting to work with.

Um, and what's it's what's interesting for us is is we've got the opportunity to translate um some of our resources, the the book that I wrote with Dr. John Harris called Sharing Jesus online as well as our courses equipping digital missionaries into uh Hindi in Bengali uh to to reach the people in those spaces.

by the way huge amounts of persecution. Um you can be a Christian in um in these regions of of India. Um but you cannot um you cannot share Jesus. Uh proilitizing is is what's uh illegal uh in in these areas. And so um the Indian people uh are are wanting to move their evangelism efforts digital so best as to escape persecution.

Some really interesting things happening uh in in in the global space digitally and we the church digital are primed to equip and mobilize people to be digital missionaries in that space and we need we we we need your help to to do that.

Listen, we can barely pay the bills as is. And so the idea of of getting our $4,000 to uh to set up our materials to work better so that we can empower hundreds if not thousands of of Indian people to be missionaries in that space.

This is the part you play. Uh look at some of these projects on the church.digital/g. The church.digital/g. There's a list of projects on on that.

Um there's a table that's got everything that we're looking at. Uh $138 is the cost to stream um our material. Let me get that one to go away.

I think I hit the wrong button there. Yeah, $138 is the cost to stream a minute of of what we're doing uh of of our our material online.

It's um Oh, man. Now I'm hitting all the wrong buttons. Uh it's let me do this. It is three cents to send an email uh to equip, empower and encourage a digital missionary.

Like it's sad in this world everything does cost money. Uh and with the church digital we have managed to figure out honestly how to do it as cheaply as possible.

leaning into free or near free resources and and um in and just in hopes, you know, like like I I I said earlier in in our leadership, Andy tells me all the time, God, here's the here's the bread and fish.

Do what you're going to do with it. And uh and watching what God does is is incredible. Absolutely incredible. I've I've I've I've actually we're going to go somewhere and I do want to bring on the next guest, Julie, here in a second, but we're going to going to um we're going to start to open up like every penny that we spend and and and show off organizationally where this money is going because for a for a ministry to operate at the scale that we're re that we're doing with as little money as it as we're spending, it's it's incredible.

Uh and so realize that that your gift to the church digital which in the US is a 501c3 registered nonprofit. Your gift uh is going to go a long long way.

What is it that the widows might you know the the little bit that the widow gives? Well, it's everything she's got. It's nothing but even still that goes a very long way.

Um and so that that's the story. That would be the approach of of the church uh digital towards that. Okay. Hey, let me bring on on Julie.

Oh, Julie just as I did that disappeared. Julie, you on? Huh? I'm not sure what just happened because I saw her in the green room and then when I Julie, you muted yourself and you turned off your camera.

So, try again if you don't mind if you can hear me. You should be able to hear me in the green room and then I will I'll bring you on when when you get there.

That was weird. Yeah, I've got a little window in the screen where I can see the green room of the people that are off screen.

And uh right when I was like I literally right when I I clicked the button to bring her over, she just disappeared off the screen.

Well, hopefully Julie uh comes back by. Um sorry about that. Okay. Yeah, Julie, just come on when you can. Um would would love to get you back here in the room.

Uh hey, we've got Kelly. Uh Kelly works with Amplify Social, one of the agencies. um that are our does a lot of our our marketing and and graphic support work and things.

I love what y'all are doing to spread some light in all places. Sending love from MN in is that Minneapolis or is that min Minneapolis is Minnesota?

Okay, Minnesota. Minneapolis is not a state, Jeff. Minneapolis is not a state. That was kind of embarrassing. I I I apologize, Julie, from that.

Uh all right, we got Claudine. Hey everyone watching uh from the Philippines as well. That's our uh Claudine's with the agency as well. Uh you know it's one of the things I I love about the church digital.

We are a uh a global we're a global organization and so for us you'll meet in in a minute here our project manager um who is in uh Africa uh Nigeria you'll meet people from Europe and and Africa.

We already had Arno on here as well. And and so there's lots of there's lots of global interaction which I love. I love that about the church digital that we've been able to to find people with an aligned mindset of doing something different to reach different people for for Christ.

You know, it's in a little bit we're a little bit like the um I tell people we're like the island of misfit toys. We just we we collect the the oddballs, the freaks.

Um um that's interesting. Hey, Julie. Julie, I'm going to hang up on you, okay? And then you reconnect because it's not that's not going to work for me.

Try again now. All right. Hopefully that will get you on. Uh it was it was not not that easy on my side, but if you can come back on, I think that'll work.

Um we're a little bit of the island of the Misfit Toys where uh you know, we just we've got some odd balls. We've got people who think differently.

We've got people with um you know, just a different mindset or vision. You know, be honest. I can, you know, tear a little bit of my heart open here, let you see the damage over over the years.

Um, but there there's a little bit of that even in my own story where it's, you know, I was I was told, you know, I I was called to be a digital pastor, 30 years ago. I mean, probably 30 plus years ago, 1992. I was like in seventh grade. And um, you know, I if I had a nickel for every time some pastor told me, Jeff, it doesn't work that way.

Yet I kept seeing fruit of how it was. Um you know even even to this day uh a lot of that and and I wanted the church digital to be the support system for the people who thought like me who wanted to see the gospel move in digital and virtual space.

So come on let's come together and uh and and and let's let's work on this together. What is God calling you to do and how can we the church digital help?

You know, I remember that was some of the challenge with um with with some of the missionaries. A lot of people would come on and and would be like, "Hey, how can I help the church digital?" And and we try to get them plugged in and and it wasn't and not that they weren't helpful, but it wasn't like it wasn't a good fit. Um, and uh, I just I I can remember saying into one one individual in particular, let's let's flip the script here.

Instead of instead of you trying to help us, let's let's start differently. How can we help you with what you're doing with what God's called you to do?

And, uh, and and this individual was like, um, oh, you know, I need, you know, marketing and blah, blah, blah, and just some some coaching.

And I was like, okay, let's start and let's build a relationship with that. uh and so let us help you towards that you know and and that's the goal is God at a personal level I can say this God for whatever reason God does not has not told me to plant a church

I I can say that I actually I have a a check in my name written by the p my pastor growing up for $100 and and in the memo he wrote your your first donation for your church your first tithe for your church you I got that I don't know 15 years ago.

Um unfortunately Tommy Watson is no longer alive and so the check is is worthless uh financially. But um you know a lot of people including myself thought I'd be planting a church by this point.

But it's funny whenever I ask God, "Hey, is it my time? God, what are you going to do? Do I need is this my is this my time to plant a church?

It's so funny. I always hear I hear two words. Um no. Very clearly no. Like he might as well slap me upside the head Three Stooges style no.

Um and it's help. And so cool. All right. I'm going to help. We're going to do whatever we can uh to help people um in in the digital and virtual space, which is the heart behind what we're doing with the church digital between the the the community support uh peer-to-peer support, cohorts, and coaching. We're going to get into some of the care and Christ-centered recovery stuff later as well. Like we're building a very um God is building a very impressive thing among us uh as as a resource to help people equip and mobilize digital missionaries globally through relational evangelism and relational discipleship.

And we'll hear more stories. I you know I was really I I do want Julie to come back. Um I'm keeping an eye for for for whatever reason I don't think she can uh get in.

Uh Julie's great. Uh one of the things that that you'll learn from her. She is uh she's French uh but she's been traveling the world uh Latin and South America uh as as as a missionary just uh evangelizing and sharing uh Jesus, you know, wherever the Holy Spirit leads.

Um and and and living that missional lifestyle in what she's doing. Um and so she was going to come on. We'll give her a couple more minutes.

Let me see who's coming up next after that. After that is purpose. Purpose is purpose promise. Antonio, I'm in the waiting room now. Okay, Julie says she's in the waiting room now.

Okay, Julie, I don't see you. I don't want to be like, "No, you're not, but I don't see you." Um, dang it. I hope I'm not having a problem with Ecamm.

Um, try again, Julie. I really don't want this to be a problem. Huh. Okay. Chino says, "Turn interview off and on." I will do that now.

All right, Julie, reset one more time for me. Um, no, no, no. Let's try it. Just try it one more time, Julie. Just try to call in.

Yeah. Thank you, Julie. This is bothering me. I got to fix that. There you go. I thought I fixed that in the middle of the night, but I guess I did not.

Cool. Hopefully Julie can get logged on here in a minute and we're good. Purpose is uh our project manager from uh South Africa, one of our project managers.

And so looking forward to having Purpose on here in a little bit. Yeah. So, this is the part of the show where I think I run out of stuff to say.

That's not good. I'm an hour I'm just an hour into this thing. I'm an hour in and I'm already speechless. Not a good sign for the rest of the day.

Tell you what, that hat's hot. Um, it was hard. It really was hard um having the uh having the heart stuff last week. I was not expecting it.

Um I I went into the hospital for a um for a cough and a fever. Uh Friday I had um Friday I had uh a fever.

Went to the this is the before Black Friday, a Friday before Thanksgiving, had a fever Saturday went to urgent care and uh essentially had a um was was not diagnosed that was not COVID.

It was not anything. Hey, purpose, I'll get with you in a second. Um that was basically, yeah, you've got some sort of viral thing.

We don't know what it is. And um Sunday I I was just coughing. Fever was gone, but just literally like coughing. Sunday I I coughed so hard I passed out.

Literally blacked out. And then enter Monday. Um you know, slight fever and you know, I blacked out the night before. I went to the I went to the emergency room and saw the same doctor I saw in urgent care on Saturday, which is funny.

Uh but then they gave me the some of the same tests and the same test came back. Oh yeah, Jeff. Uh you've got you've got flu and I and I was like, "Do people pass out from coughing because of flu?" And uh the doctor's like, "What do you mean pass out?" And and

I started going into more and more detail about what passing out meant. And they started running more and more tests um looking at the heart.

And that's when they discovered the the the blockage. Um, and they tried to they tried to I've I've got the scars. They tried to plant a stent and it didn't work.

They went in through the wrist. Um, and uh and so the the blockage was I think too far to the edge where they couldn't get to it.

And so yeah, cool. Uh Jeff, you're going to have to have bypass surgery, but you're so sick with flu still and things like that that we're going to have to slow it down and and uh you'll have to get it later.

Um it's funny. I really did. I think I said this earlier. I I I could not Oh, by the way, all this was when my wife and um my daughter were and my mom were all out of town in in Europe um on a on a vacation on on a trip.

My daughter actually wants to go to school in Europe. Uh and so what was what was left was um me and my son and my my father.

And you know, my dad was good enough to take care of CJ, but I was basically alone in the hospital for like five days.

My wife came back that like right before Thanksgiving uh to to swoop in and be like, you know, a relational touch point for me because I was starving at that point just alone.

But it was funny. Um, God, I think I can say this. I I freaked out when I found out about the bypass. I'm still like antsy about it.

I know it's okay. The surgeon that did my father's triple bypass is doing mine. Uh I, you know, and and and I I believe everything's going to be okay.

Um but I know that God's in control more than more than I am. And so I'm looking forward to what he has uh in store through that.

Okay. Hey, let's do this. Um, I'm going to bring Julie on. Um, first, let's see if I can do this. Hey, purpose. I'll come to you in about five minutes or so.

Um, but we had some tech issues. Uh, here for a second. All right, Julie. Is this working? Yes. Hey, I can't I can't hear you.

Click the mute button on your screen, Julie. Does your computer have a mute button? Your Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You uh Your computer is telling me guest has mute.

My computer is telling me that you have muted yourself. Tech issues, baby. Nope. Um, is anybody good at lip reading? Oh, Julie, Julie, Julie, Julie, Julie.

Um, yeah, I don't know what to do here. Um, here I We got Andy Mage chipping in from the outside. Uh, checking your window.

Is there a mute button like a Zoom call? Arno. Arno from South Africa. You should let me fix it. Arno, I probably would. No.

Oh, Julie, I hate to do this. I'm I'm going to have to pull you. I'm sorry. Yeah, internet is very bad. I'm I'm sorry, guys.

All right, Julie, I think you're going to come hang out with us some here in a in a little bit as we get in with uh with Simon, right?

Yeah, I think she's even frozen there. So, all right, y'all. Um, yeah, she's not on mute, but it's definitely is muting here in our system.

Okay. All right. So, I'm going to hang up on Julie. I'm sorry, Julie. Oh my gosh. And then I lost uh interview is having a bad time, Andy.

That's not good when I've got like I don't know 25 interviews over the course of today. But hopefully I can get Purpose back. Purpose disappeared on me as well.

I I'm really not looking forward to the 12-hour hour Jeff monologue stream. I I I I don't There were There was a day where I would be really excited about the 12-hour stream.

I about me monologuing for 12 hours. I got to tell you, today is not that day. Today is not that day. And and so uh I would love to get some tech working uh for this a little better.

Um looking forward to having a conversation hopefully with purpose here uh in in a little bit. Uh and then I've got my friend Jesse Carbo coming up at at 9:15.

I will say that if we were to look at the people with the most questionable internet, Julie and um and purpose back to back are those people.

And so um yeah, it's that's maybe not surprising or at least it's it's explainable. Um all right. Hey, here's got we got Mark. Uh, Mark, what's your favorite food, Jeff?

Um, evidently salad. Now, I have been out of the hospital uh for a week. No, I've the week that I was in the hospital plus the couple days, um, I've I've already lost over 15 pounds.

Just just diet change, man. Sushi is the right answer. And sushi's healthy. Sashimi without the rice usually or sashimi salad, you know, raw fish on the salad.

U I love me some edamame. I I love me some wasabi. That's good stuff. But yeah, it's um it's been fun. Let's see. Jesse's Jesse's on.

Jesse, I'll bring you on here in a minute. I'll let you get set. Um yeah, I think I think we're good. Um, you know, all the all the tech issues aside here for the first hour, uh, do swing by the church.digital give.

The church.digital. Our hope is to 10x uh, our our budget to really start to get the gospel um, into some uh, unique places and spaces.

Oh, we got Purpose that came in as as well. I want to introduce you to my friend Purpose. So, let's Jesse, I'm going to bring Purpose on first.

So, Purpose, hold on, man. Let's see if this works. Hey, Purpose. How's it going?

Good, man. Thanks for jumping on the stream today with us. You um this is a different background, I think, than I'm used to. Is it?

Or is this where you normally are?

Uh it's kind of different. Is like another part of my leadership.

Looks good, man. So, um yeah. So, tell us tell man, tell me a little bit about tell the audience just a little bit about you and your ministry.

Okay. Um so, okay. Yeah. So, my name is Purpose. I am in Nigeria, Lagos, Nigeria. And I'm a pastor, minister of the gospel. and I still want a ministry called Zion, Zealous Influencers of the Nations.

And basically what we're centered around is teaching, discipleship, and missions. So basically what we're about is teaching and raising people that can function as lights in different strata of society.

That's basically what we do. So as a ministry, we're involved in things such as we have the school of arts, school of governance, and educational outfits and various other things.

So what we do basically is raise people, disciple people who function in different sectors of engagements, various spheres of influence and interaction, be it from politics, governments, doctors, lawyers, educationists and he froze.

It was a great conversation until he froze. I'll keep an eye on him and see when he comes back. It's unfortunately working with some of the, you know, some of the lower economical, underresourced countries, stuff like this happens internetwise.

And so sorry about that. Purpose, thanks for jumping on on the stream with us. Purpose does a great job with our project management and works a lot with Andy and our other leaders in helping us get organized and structured.

The Church Digital I was largely run and driven by me over the course of the years, you know, and it was my full-time job. I had other things that were making money here or there, but it just didn't work out where I could make a salary off it.

And so I was very happy to utilize, to bring on a project manager like Purpose to come in and start to structure and organize the Church Digital.

We've been using the terms decentralize away from Jeff to make the organization strong outside of Jeff. This is even before, you know, all the hard stuff for me at a personal level happened.

And so we were already kind of taking stress off me and spreading it out across the organization almost in anticipation of what was coming. And so hey, Purpose.

Um, so how did you find the Church Digital? How did you connect? And you did EDM, right? What were your thoughts of that?

Yeah, yeah. So to start with, I found Church Digital on Facebook. And it resonated with me basically about infiltrating the digital space basically with the gospel first. But what the Church Digital is centered around is basically raising digital missionaries as a digital mission sending agency to sending missionaries in the digital space.

So that resonated with me first to begin with, and going through the EDM course was more like an eye-opener making me understand how I could be more effective as a digital missionary.

So there, it's exposed me to a lot of wisdom, you know, content and knowledge that the Church Digital has made available to make you effective in digital ministry and digital missionary.

So that was it for me, and EDM was mind-blowing. EDM was mind-blowing. I recommended EDM to a couple of leaders who have disciples that they're raising in Nigeria here. I have recommended it to them. So I still recommend this every day at this point.

Very cool. And so, yeah, it's been fun. Actually, Steve, who was on earlier, taught you, right? Steve Reed taught your EDM.

Yeah.

Steve's Steve was on earlier. I think we were talking about you. But it's been fun working with Purpose and getting his, you know, even on senior leadership, getting his global perspective bringing his worldview into it.

You know, Purpose is really good at asking the awkward question, and so I always love people that are brave enough to ask the awkward question. Because, you know, I need that. I need the people to like, you know, be like, "Yo, Jeff, this isn't working," and that just makes us better.

It's not a threat. It's like, "Man, you care enough to get it out there," and so really excited about how this is going.

Hey, it's $145 to take somebody through the Equipping Digital Missionary cohort like Purpose described. And we offer it through the Church Digital free.

Somebody, just to be blunt, somebody like Purpose doesn't have $145 to put into this based on the economy. He's kind of laughing just even as I say that.

And so, you know, the fact is that we need donors and sponsors to help people like Purpose get through EDM and empower them to do ministry globally.

And so, man, Purpose, thanks for jumping on on the call here. If you're interested in giving, if anybody's interested in giving, the Church.digital/give.

We do have a $5,000 matching grant right now at the Church.digital/give. And so we'd love to have your help in helping us get that and complete that $5,000 grant.

Purpose, just we're behind on schedule already, ma'am, but any closing thoughts or anything from you today?

Oh, so basically my presence here is just to provide some kind of support in terms of what we do as the Church Digital because what we do is highly imperative, highly important, especially in digital space. Pushing the kingdom and the council of God in the digital space, equipping digital missionaries in the digital space.

You can't overemphasize its importance basically. So what we're doing as a ministry as TCD is something that everyone needs to know about and be a partner. Everyone needs to partner with that. Everyone needs to support that. That's not basically me to talk about my ministry. Basically how we can support TCD to actualize its vision. That's basically what my closing thoughts are.

No, well said. Thank you, Purpose. Purpose has just been part of the team for three months, two months, relatively new, and he's been a valuable asset for the organization.

So, Purpose, thanks for jumping on the stream here. But we got to move on. So Purpose is just one of the missionaries, one of the people we're supporting and working with in Africa.

I would also encourage, you know, he is a phenomenal resource and it's been eye-opening to me, you know, a white bald American. I'm going to call myself out here to look outside of our typical US worldview and start to recognize some of the opportunities to work with people and some of the influence, some of the knowledge and some of the insight, some of the cultural opportunities by engaging with people of a different worldview like people like Purpose and others that we've worked with in the global sphere.

Man, they make me a better person. And they've made this organization a better option as well.

All right. Hey, so let's move on to Church Digital. Help us get the gospel in digital and virtual spaces. Help us plant churches in digital and virtual spaces.

Let me bring on one of my board members today here. Purpose, thank you very much. But let me bring on, as he coughs right on cue, Jesse Carbo.

Hey, man, Jesse, how's it going?

Good. How are you doing?

Man, well, I'm alive. So that's a step in the right direction. I am sweating like crazy under these lights. Like, my shirt is soaking wet, you know, down on my stomach, off camera, thankfully. But I just thought I'd share that with you.

Um, thanks, man. You've been around the world. You've been around us a lot lately. Anyway, um, just maybe catch me up a little bit. What do you do? What's your, what have you been up to these past, this past month or so?

Yeah. Um, through the work that I do at Digital Missions Project, we have been partnering with different organizations that are hosting conferences for pastors and church leaders and missionaries.

And you know, speaking of missions, like I got to participate in what I think is the longest running and largest missions conference on the planet called the International Conference on Missions.

It took place in Atlanta since 1948. There was about 600 different missions organizations under one roof talking about how they can work together to, you know, get the gospel out to as many people as possible around the world.

So, so interesting. And what was even more fascinating, I know this isn't the question that you asked, but I just want to interject this.

Sure.

No digital missions. I was the only person there talking about digital missions on any level. And so, yeah, there's so much opportunity in the kingdom to help our brothers and sisters that are out there bringing the gospel in so many different ways, but to discover the power and the influence that digital can have in that effort, in that work.

Yeah.

So, yeah, that's what I've been doing, conferences.

Jesse, I was telling them earlier about you where, you know, I pretty much own the term digital missionary and I think between the two of us we're probably eight of the top ten on Google.

You know, and so we, and it's, we're both in Miami. We both knew each other before either of us were doing the digital missionary stuff, which is funny.

But there is, it's not a trend where it's happening, but I think more and more organizations are leaning towards awareness of digital missionaries.

Like we look at some of the stuff that's coming out of Lison, Billy Graham's missions organization. Some of the stuff that's coming out of Cru and GACX, of course, which is global. And like there's more awareness.

BGA, Billy Graham Evangelical Association, there's awareness of it, there's awareness of the need. But what I think what makes the Church Digital unique is that where some of these large organizations, like even Global Media Outreach, maybe one of the top ten largest missions organizations on the planet, they do missions work digitally, but they're not involving, you know, normal people. It's not challenging individuals to be missionaries. It's call centers and ads and it's a completely different process.

I don't, you know, Andy and I talk about this all the time. I don't know anybody that's doing what we're doing right now, trying to challenge normal people and teaching normies, normal people on how to be a digital missionary.

Yeah, that's what I love about your vision, Jeff. Um, I'll share with the audience that's watching either now live or in the post, you know, the play afterwards. Like, um, I remember sitting with you at Starbucks like Dadeland Mall here in Miami during COVID and you sharing with me your dream for this and um, all kinds of light bulbs were going on for me like just in my brain like just started turning going, "My gosh, like yes, like you have been doing this personally. You've been a digital missionary before that term was even brought together. You've been practically doing it since early 2000s. But then when you started seeing the opportunity to like formally put together an organization that would, and even on this side of COVID, this is part of what I love, is that you know because I do so much work with local churches I just see that every church building is filled with people that are digital missionaries and don't know it and pastors have an army of people that can, you know, like I remember as a kid, our church did a lot of evangelism training through Evangelism Explosion.

Yeah.

That was like the big popular evangelism training program, you know, and um a lot of those kind of evangelism programs have died away.

It's very difficult, and pastors tend to struggle with, like, how do they? So, so kind of the lowest common denominator, the bottom shelf, the easiest thing to kind of get your people to do in your church if you were pastor is print out some invite cards and get your people to just invite. You know, there's an invite culture, but even that has been somewhat difficult. And so I do believe there is a shift happening where we can encourage pastors and churches to see their people as digital missionaries because the reality is every person walking around with a cell phone in their pocket has the potential to be and the go, the gospel in their heart, and the cell phone in their pocket has the potential to be a digital missionary.

And I'll just say this last, you know, one more thing as I think about it is I remember in the fall of 2019 being on a missions trip to Cuba in Havana with some amazing leaders. We were training some pastors there. And as we were getting ready for dinner, I stepped outside into a way area, and there's this apartment building next to the church building, and I looked up and there was with an iPhone, and I was so like I was a little bit like confused, like how in the world does this teenager in one of the poorest cities in the world have an $1,000 iPhone? I struck up a conversation and I said, "What are you doing?" Like, you know, and I speak Spanish, so I'm in Spanish I'm asking this teenager like, "What are you doing?" And they're like, "Oh yeah, I'm on social media. I'm on the internet basically." And I thought, "Wow." Like again, this was like the beginning of me starting to realize what the Lord was doing and what's happening in the world, that if we want to reach the world, yeah, it's going to be digitally. It's the technology has provided us the just a crazy opportunity to get the gospel out to a lot of people.

So yeah, love what you're doing. I'm grateful for organizations like the Church Digital. Yeah, man, it's amazing.

Jesse's been one of the conference sponsors that we've had and has led breakouts and has been a part of that. You know, just the conference tech stack alone, the platform that we run the conference on, costs about $4,000 a conference, and so it's been our desire with the Church Digital to do the digital missionary conferences for free. We've had, you know, 2,500 people register for those, and so this year 2,500, and so excited about that. Ninety, at least ninety some countries.

The last conference was a thousand people from 92 countries, and so like there's a huge interest, there's a huge need, but to be honest, you know, tech costs money, and things like a platform. It was funny, the first platform we did the conference on, we, the 1,500 people or 1,100 people day of broke the conference platform literally. It shut it down. And so to get a conference that can sustain us, a platform that can allow for the breakouts and the engagement costs money, and that's where we're looking for people like you, donors, to step in and find financially help the Church Digital to do that.

And so $4,000 is just an example of one of the many projects that we've got listed on the Church Digital that we're looking for funding on. We do have a donation, a grant, a matching grant open right now for today. $5,000 is open, so the first $5,000 you give, somebody will match that. Your $1 will equal $2 to the Church Digital. And so help us by donating right now today so we can secure this matching grant.

Let me encourage, if I could encourage just people that are listening. It can be overwhelming to hear that we're trying to raise $50,000 and you're looking at the lower third, $4,000 for tech stack for the conference platform. You know, that is a lot of money, and you may think like, "Well, I don't have a lot of money and I can't give that much to this missions and this to this organization," but maybe you can give five, five, ten, $20 a month on a consistent basis. And so I just want to encourage you to consider even if it's a small amount on a consistent monthly basis over the year, that would be a blessing to the Church Digital because a lot of how the Church Digital does its work is through the ongoing consistent giving of donors throughout the year. And you know, I've been in that place where you know you believe in something but you feel like you can't contribute, but even the smallest amount, so I would encourage you to visit the giving page, you know, and just set up a small giving, you know, recurring giving, you know, donation to this ministry because the dollar goes a long way. I've worked in large, you know, multi-million dollar organizations. Usually, the funds, you know, like almost 50% of the money's raised go to staff. And I will tell you that in this organization, as a board member, I will say proudly that that's not the case here. This is an army of volunteers. There are very few paid staff. You know, there's a lot of the money actually goes to real ministry. And so again, if you feel like you can't give big amounts, don't, you know, just pray about a small recurring donation that you can give throughout the year that would be a blessing to this ministry. So thank you for participating in any way that you can.

That's beautiful. Thank you, Jesse, for that. Yeah, budget-wise, very little financially goes to staff. And just as an example, $138 is the cost of streaming per minute. And so, you know, a $50 show for an hour or a stream or something like that. These are what we're looking for help with. The actual, it's just funny, looking over at the Church Digital overall, $381. $381 is the cost of keeping the Church Digital running every day for 24 hours.

Yeah, it's you know, every little bit goes towards something. And so, you know, a $25 donation, a $10 donation, a $50 donation. Actually, I had a friend of mine who's a college student, a college kid. He worked, he planted a church in Roblox, Daniel Heron. And it was funny last year as part of this Giving Tuesday stream, he started donating, I think ten bucks, fifteen bucks, and it was a college kid. He didn't have any money, man. And so, but that was what he put his money towards and so supporting the mission of the Church Digital. And so fifteen bucks monthly for him, man, that was a lot, and it means a lot whether it's a big donation or a small.

But Jesse, man, thanks for hanging out with us today and being part of the fun here on the stream. You can check out digitalmissionsproject.com, right?

Yeah, yeah. Can I pray before I go?

Man, I would love that.

Yeah, let's pray. Jesus, we just come to you now and submit ourselves to you and to the Father and to the Holy Spirit. And we just, we're grateful that you invite us into this grand mission. It's your mission. This is not our mission. This is not our church. This is not our program or business or organization. Lord, this is all of it is yours. It is your kingdom. You are the king. You are the king of kings. And Lord, unless you go before us, unless you do it, we're sunk. And so Lord, I pray for Jeff's health. I pray that you would heal him. I pray that you would be with the doctors as they move forward into the bypass surgery. Lord, give him a renewed sense of vigor and energy. And Lord, the mission's not done. There's so much more to do, and we're believing for the finances necessary. Lord, you know what the Church Digital needs from the standpoint of money to pay for tech stacks and conferences and to live stream. Lord, you know exactly who needs the gospel throughout the world. You know what each of the leaders and the volunteers need. Lord, that's what's so amazing is that your grace and your mercy and your love for us. This is not a transaction. You do not expect us to perform, Lord Jesus, to earn your love. You give us your love freely in spite of our performance, in spite of our love. And that's what of all the religions and all the gods in the world, you are so attractive because of your grace and your mercy and your love. And so would you, just through the power of your Holy Spirit, would you bring what this ministry needs, Lord Jesus? Would you bring what Jeff and his wife Amy and his kids need, Lord Jesus? Would you protect them, Lord? I do believe this is a spiritual attack against Jeff and against Amy. Lord Jesus, I believe that this is the enemy trying to take him out so that this ministry would not happen. But Lord, you are stronger than that. You are more merciful and kind than that. And so we, Lord, we just believing that you're going to provide what's needed and necessary so that your kingdom can continue to grow and to expand. And so we ask all of these things, Jesus, who gave his life for us, that we might have life. In Jesus name we pray. Amen.

Amen. All right, Jesse, man, thank you very much for that prayer. Thank you for your friendship. Thanks for being on the board and appreciate everything you're doing, man.

All right, love you, man. Take care.

Jesse Carbo, Digital Missions Project, board member of the Church Digital. Excited. We'll have the chairman of the board, Charlie Barum, along later in the broadcast as well. You know what? That's, I wanted to do this quick talk, but it's buried. Give me one second. One, two. I just started mashing buttons. It's conference. All right. I would, Sparkler, Sparky here, Arno, I'd be interested in knowing the short history of the transition to digital missions from what it was eight years.

Oh, yeah. I mean, I've got a whole slide presentation on that. I mean, back pre-COVID we were doing marketing and technology AVL, and then in COVID we were, before COVID we were digital church planting with Stadia, and then when COVID hit, then we were doing physical doing digital and church planting. And then we were helping physical churches understand how to do digital missions and digital discipleship through New Thing and Leadership Network. And really, I think the drive lately was to digital missions. I look at it instead of B2B, business to business, we're B to B to C, business to consumer. Instead of going through the churches to work with individuals and help churches understand. I'll be honest, I kind of gave up, and we started working straight with the individuals instead. That's not to knock the churches. The churches, a physical church is doing something beautiful. I'm literally on staff with several physical churches as well right now with what I'm doing. And I love the ministry that a physical church can do in the community. But the work that we're talking about here and the people that we're going to bring on are doing something different. And to me, that's the beauty is doing something different to reach someone different. And that's why I think that the Church Digital is so valuable right now and so viable because we are attempting to do something different that others are not doing. We're trying to multiply and mobilize missionaries out of normal people. And so I'm going to bring on my friend here, Simon. Hello, Simon.

Hey there. Greetings from Germany.

Hey, how are you doing, sir?

It's been a long day, but it's great to be here.

Now, are you wearing one of my shirts? Like I see the cross, but I don't recognize that shirt.

The elephant shirt.

Yes, of course. I'm yeah, I'm very sorry that I'm a little bit blacked out, but our studio just went underwater a couple of days ago, so there is not so much lighting available, so we have to cope with that.

No worries. Hey, I've got Julie on as well. Julie was joining you for this, right?

Yes.

Perfect. All right, let me bring Julie on. That's what I thought. I just wanted to make sure had that prepped. So, let me push the button. And here's Julie. Julie, can we hear you?

Hi, everyone. Yes, I can hear you. Can you hear me, guys?

Yes, we can hear you.

That's awesome. We had some tech issues earlier.

Well, Julie, I'm glad you made this segment. Listen, Simon, I so Simon is our outpost leader in Europe. He works for a missions organization called Mission Alliance. And um Simon, why don't I just give it over to you? Talk a little bit about maybe how you got connected to the church digital and um I don't know whatever you want to say.

Yes, I'd love to do so. It's great to join here on the stream and it's great to see you um at least up in the chair again after some uh unwillingly break. Um yes uh how did I get connected to the church digital? I was actually um one of the conferences the church digital uh did formerly known as uh the digital church network and was one of the conferences taking place and for me it was quite fascinating to see that there are so many people around the world who are already thinking about doing digital ways of church doing digital ways of mission that was the first contact and um throughout the following I guess one or one and a half year we had different contacts um with uh you Jeff with um flat cap.

And what I loved was getting into the um Discord community was finding people who were not only doing um things comparable to what I was thinking about but which were willing to invest into me. Um I still remember one of the first talks they had was flat cap where he just said well Simon for what you are doing you just need um a Paul or a Timothy by your side and that was really good and a game changer and actually uh yesterday the first of December uh was the day when I got someone by my side Daniel Shunker who has also been as a speaker on the digital uh European missionary summit um is co-leading within alliance mission and I'm really really happy about that.

So getting in contact with the church digital has really shaped my way of thinking globally about mission and has opened the opportunity to get in contact with so so many people. That's just great. I love the EDMs. I love having spent the time in the Forsyth Congress in Seoul together with you Jeff and others and through the EDM started more and more people got connected people like Julie just by my side and I love that we're not only having a European equipping digital missionary uh cohorts um and also a German one but that Julie will be starting a French one beginning next year not alone but together with Cindy who has always already been on the stream and with a couple of others. So on to you.

Yeah. So excited about this. We're in the process right now of translating equipping uh the equipping digital missionary cohort as well as the sharing Jesus online book uh into into French and and you know and I recall the other day um you know just in WhatsApp there was a chat that popped up the sharing Jesus online book the evangelism principle it's built on bless uh begin with prayer uh listen you know Dave Dave Ferguson's eat together we do share shared experiences, serve, and then share your Jesus story.

It's an acronym. Uh well, you know, when you write a book, you think, oh, it's just going to be English. Acronyms are fine. And then all of a sudden, you're talking about your book getting translated into Spanish, French, um you know, Hindi, and it's like, how how are we going to do this in uh in um in in French?

And um God bless ChatGPT. That's all I'm going to say. It came up with some some good options uh moving forward. And so, uh, Julie, uh, and so Julie's going to be heading up. Julie actually was in my EDM class, the first EDM class we offered, uh, and and is is going to be teaching it in French.

Uh, and so, Julie, kind of like what's your mindset or what are you excited about, uh, heading into starting to help people, uh, become digital missionaries, uh, who speak French?

I'm back. I'm sorry. I was a bit frozen.

Okay. Um, are you guys there?

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Sorry, I just asked you I just asked literally asked you a question. Um, how are you? Talk to me a little bit about um teaching uh the class in French. Like what's going on in your mind?

Dang it, she's gone. Is Simon gone, too? Okay, they're frozen. I'm not frozen. It's weird to me that I thought I I thought I was the one that was frozen and they're not.

Let me clear I upgraded to fiber. Okay. Last year I had I had I had Comcast. I know Xfinity. Like if you're in America, you're like, "Why? Xfinity is horrible." And it's true. It is horrible. But um I switched over to I switched over to fiber. And you think, "Oh my gosh, fiber. You should be fine. Well, do I look fine now? It's so cold in here. I'm sneezing.

Um, yeah, Simon. All right, I'm going to hang up on these two, let them reconnect. Uh, and hope for the best. Man, I was so excited. Hopefully, I'm allergic to bad internet. Um, hopefully Simon and and Julie can make it back.

I'm so excited about what's happening um in that space. The I'm so excited about what's happening in in Europe right now. Europe is is the um most uh organized region that we have now. Now, what we did, we decided to launch what we're calling outposts. These are decentralized regions and and empowering volunteers in that space. Now, Simon knows Europe far better than I know Europe. I I know nothing about French. Julie knows French better than I do. And And so what we want to do is actually find people um who can lead out in those spaces. Find people who have a vision for what? For digital evangelism, digital discipleship. Find people who have a vision for relational evangelism digitally and empower them to to lead uh a peer-to-peer, a decentralized, a regional network in that space. Like that's the plan. That's the desire. That's that's the dream. And so, oh my gosh, we have a Troy Jones sighting. Hey, Troy. Troy, I haven't seen you in a month of Tuesdays, bro. Good to see you. Thanks for jumping on. We got to catch up at some point, bro. Okay. Um the beauty of um of like assignment, somebody who has has that vision. Um like we the church digital, we were literally gasoline on the flame for him, man. He wanted to do this stuff. He just needed some sort of structure and guidance and material and we provided that for him and he took off running with it and and did a did a phenomenal job. He was was it was funny. He was just looking at at Germany. Simon's German and so we started coaching him on on some of the other um Here's come Simon. I'll bring him back on. Hey, Simon. You back?

Hi. All right, let's try it again. But we started we started giving him access. We started giving Simon access to um you know, some not not only like the materials, but you know, Simon, I I've got people coming out to me all over the place from Europe, man. I I I don't and I don't know what to do with these people. Can I can I start to give them to to you? A summit. I was talking about how you were doing Cloud Church um but really expanded beyond that even to now looking at at all of Europe and starting to resource and connect into other countries and and now moving not just from German in into French and starting the thing with Julie and Cindy.

Like there's some really interesting things I think that are that are happening in in Europe. Um, what I mean what's kind of as I know we're we're neck deep in the French, but after that kind of what's what's next for you? Do you have a do you have a next do you have a dream, a vision or anything?

Yeah, definitely. What I um love is um seeing that um the church digital um offers the opportunity to connect those people scattered across Europe. Europe as um a continent with a variety of cultures and a lot of language groups um and having the ability to find a connecting point where digital missionaries can uh connect across this uh continent. That's really a great opportunity. So what I would love to see is to get um courses like EDM or like courses to develop further available in as many language groups for the European for the European continent as possible. That on the one hand side and on the other one other hand side offer the opportunity for many countries which are not as as vast as uh the US or Brazil um to also give the opportunities to have cohorts of um digital missionaries meeting others in their region. You know, if you have to drive five hours to meet a cohort of digital missionaries, that's probably something you're willing to take. And in the European context, that might be a good possibility. And um reaching much more language groups can be really great opportunity um through uh translation in AI doesn't work for smaller language groups in Europe, but it might be a great opportunity. And probably you'll join me next May for the European Leadership Forum, which is the opportunity to reach out at in one of the uh biggest um evangelical leaders events for Eastern Europe um where I'll be holding a talk on digital missions and we also have a booth with the church digital. So connecting the dots across Europe uh getting into different culture and language spots and finding places to connect people. Yep.

That's beautiful. I I keep forgetting about that conference in May. Uh send me an email if you message me on that. Let me make sure I get that on my calendar because we we were just scheduling the next uh digital missionary conference in May as well, and I don't want to overlap that.

Um Julie's just having bad internet. We're going to have to let move on, but uh French EDM should start on February, uh God's will. And so, uh we're excited, uh about that. And it is a desire to get into multiple languages. Um, you know, once again to contextualize for me that the the desire of the church digital is not to be a massive organization, but to be a decentralized a whole bunch of small organizations and the idea of having Simon with his network running underneath him and in Europe in uh in Africa and uh some different things in India like we want to contextualize uh this as much as possible and and all of that contextualization it does cost money uh and so we're looking at $4,000 uh to translate sharing Jesus online and into Hindi, Bengali. Uh but you can plop in whatever languages you want into that translation cost in that, design cost in that and also the course as well. Um before equipping digital missionaries uh would be included in that. Hey Simon, before I let you go, I'm going to go ahead because I don't get a chance to do this too often. Let's let's hit the button and bring on Jason Morris. How you doing man?

Doing great. Yeah, man. It's good seeing you guys.

Oh, yeah. I actually I can't think of the last time we had the three of us on a call together, but yeah. I mean, these the three of the three the two of them work very closely together and and I kind of like look at the outside way. The two of them are smart and I just kind of and the pretty face, but um Jason is our equipping and mobilization. Well, no, he's equipping director. He doesn't know he's also mobilization director. I haven't told him that publicly yet, but uh but for yeah, it's it's welcome to the new normal, baby.

But um the good news is that Jason has been working hard getting the course set up in French um and a lot of the translation and working on our LMS, our platform as well.

And so I don't know, Jason, did you want to talk anything about the French stuff? Well, I wanted to take a little bit of a step back and do you remember when we were talking last Giving Tuesday last year?

Mhm.

None of this international stuff was even a thing.

Mhm.

And the folks, I wanted to just say a big thank you um from a heart of gratitude for those who donated so that you could be a part of what is happening around the world right now. Um just in the last hour, we've seen people from all around the world. We've seen people that have gotten their calling secured digitally that are being missionaries all around the world. Even if they don't or can't uh travel, it doesn't matter. So, as as I was, you know, kind of watching the stream a little bit over the past year to see how your gifts have translated into Steve Reed and their EDM that went spilled over into Promise and the work that he's doing that spilled over into Simon and dude, he's got what, three cohorts going on and moving into different languages and stuff. Yeah, we've got the French thing.

Um, we're hoping that the funding is there so that we can continue this momentum that Jesus is doing through the church digital, through EDM and more importantly through these digital missionaries that the Holy Spirit is empowering because um I don't want to stop that. I want to empower what Jesus is clearly wanting to do around the world in the lives of these digital missionaries that are popping up all over the place and connecting to one another, finding their tribe, finding their calling, and finally getting the tools that they need to do what Jesus has called them to do. Man, I am looking so forward to what this next year will bring.

Yeah. um based upon you know giving and that sort of thing. And wow, I'm just you know even in this past hour it has been so encouraging because sometimes when I work on stuff you know I'm digging inside of platforms and doing translations and sometimes I wonder does it matter? Um, and I know that some of us sometimes struggle with that. And even when it comes to giving, it's like, what does the gifts that I do, does it matter? Well, I think we just proved, we just are in the first hour of 12, it matters. Your um hour really, what Jesus is doing through TCD is incredible globally. Now, that wasn't true a year ago. And I'm just just super grateful at this moment. And I'm grateful for you, Simon, and all the work that you're doing on the European front and for helping um guide us to what next languages we could do because there's a lot of languages out there and we need to know which ones to focus on first. So what we generally do is we wait for the leaders that Jesus brings from the harvest because we've been praying at 10:22 every morning, you know, pray to the Lord of the harvest that he'll bring forth laborers into the harvest field. And as he is doing that and those laborers are saying, hey, can you do this in French? Hey, can you do this in German? Can you do this in Hindi? Can you do this in Bengal? Then we're like, okay, that's Jesus signal for what our next language needs to be because we're not going to just go randomly um and just go A to Z the different languages. We're going to go for where Jesus is empowering his missionaries for his kingdom because at the end of the day, it's all his anyway. We're just kind of following him. I know I did a lot of talking again. I was just super excited.

No, it's it's Listen, we I love you because you're super excited.

Um Simon, um man, I don't I don't know. Any any thoughts? Go for it, man. Yeah, I need to share one story that really stands out for what we're doing here, you know. Um, uh, after doing the first two European English speaking EDMs, I said, "Okay, I want to do this in German." So, we did just a a fast AI translated subtitled version of um, the beta version of equipping digital missionaries. I ran a first cohort with it with people, German speaking people who were doing that together. So in one in our mission magazine we just had a short note saying okay there's a course in German for digital missionaries and Paula from Germany she joined in participated in the EDM cohort she got to know one of our digital missionaries she got connected on the first and side after the EDM to um the um digital house of prayer that one of our digital missionaries is leading for women and she's the one translating ing sharing Jesus online to German at the moment. So that is something really a a stream of stream of blessing that come come out can come out from being able to offer precisely that and I'm thankful for that. Thank you for all who have been giving so that we can offer EDM for free. That is really a blessing. Just last week we finished um the third European EDM and I'm looking forward to doing the next ones next year. Take some money. Uh that's up to you out there. Let's get it together and uh we love to hear more of stories like that. That's for today, I guess.

That's beautiful, Simon. Thanks for thanks for hanging out with us here. I'm I'll let you go because I know you are a busy man. Uh so I'm going to click a button here. Simon, I'm going to let you go and I'm going to move Jason into your camera slot. And then I'll press this. And there we go. And so JMO man um listen you are you're working on a lot right now for the church digital you and and and anesh and and the team over in equipping um we've got uh so EDM equipping digital missionaries you're you're getting that into different languages and we're excited to see the global reach of of that happening. You know, we talk about the, you know, we've talked in leadership how it's like the the the loaves and the fish, how man, we've just got this thing going. We've just got this system and we're ready to see it almost explode. We're ready to see God, you know, scale this thing and and and do something uh with it. And and it's and it's our hope, we we've already talked about it to, you know, 2x the budget here. uh but to 10x the impact as we're looking at that global scale of this thing that we're about to to achieve here. Um and and then we're also looking at some other courses that we're we're doing as as well to complement, you know, the sharing Jesus online book, turning that into a course and some others that we want to to start to to strengthen um the the dig the strength in the digital missionaries and and give them some other trainings beyond just the the intro course that that we're offering. What man, listen, I'll I'll open it up to you. What what what do you want to talk about? What are you most excited about right now? Well, for me, what's exciting is to see the multiplication that's occurring. So, we're not just talking about a course. We're talking about putting tools in the hands of ordinary people who may be using digital tools and are familiar with digital tools, but have not been awakened to how those can be leveraged for the gospel and watching that multiply. In the past hour, you've seen stories of actually multiplication. We've got generations going on already in this first year. And that's what is exciting to me. So, it's not really a course. It's more a tools for missionaries and it is a catalyst for getting missionaries together so that they can multiply and get more people out into the harvest to share the love of Jesus all around the world. And that's what's so exciting to me is as a former missionary myself, one of the things that always really kind of bugged me was Jesus said, "Go and make disciples of all nations." And as a missionary, I felt confined to just two, the one that I was born in and the one that I was called to. But what is so exciting about being a part of the church digital is I am watching us literally go into all nations. And so for me, this is just an act of obedience. I want to be able to stand before Jesus one day and say, "Okay, we gave it a good college try. I was a part of doing what you told us to do. Go make disciples of all nations. And I'm watching it happen through the multiplication of these missionaries when given the tools, the support and the network of friends on mission that we all need. They they found their tribe and watching that explode is just nothing but fun, man. Watching Jesus do his thing with normal ordinary people around the world is so much fun.

Yeah. I you know what it really is? We get to do this. You know, it's it's it's like, you know, I love I love the churches I'm I'm working for currently. Um but the the the things that we get to do, the relationships we get to have um globally and and see this the discipleship that's happening uh globally is is incredible. You know, it's it's like I mean, literally some of these I'm having conversations in an open office with like three or four countries before 9:00 a.m. And um you know, I I show up for work after already having an an incredible heartfelt conversation with somebody about their ministry and, you know, XYZ country globally. And and you know, to be a part of of of something like that is is is beautiful. And so yeah, and one of the other things, uh, sorry to interrupt you, but I just felt like as you were talking, Jesus told me, "Hey, don't forget to talk about this." Um, I think Steve's story is particularly instructive for a lot of us where many of us maybe feel that call toward global mission because well, it's in the great commission anyway. I mean, if you don't feel it, maybe you're not reading the great commission, but we don't know how. and the connection that is happening with the church digital between people who are feeling called to global mission and don't know how with people that are out there in the field doing the work in these countries that are sometimes dangerous to be in. And the people that uh they're trying to reach, they can only explore faith digitally because for them it is so dangerous to go. They there is no church, right? They don't know where to go. They don't know where the underground church is. If they're trying to explore faith, the only way that they're going to do that is digitally and matching them up with missionaries who feel called to global mission but maybe can't travel but can get in a Zoom call or a Google Meet or a WhatsApp group or using all of the digital tools. There's so many of them the list is just too long. um getting getting awareness for digital mission which really is global mission and bringing those people together so that we can do more mission together than we ever could alone. I feel like there's this fascinating synergy of John 17 globally that's occurring with digital mission with the last unreached unengaged people groups who by the way are now getting connected to digitally like never before. That's the new frontier. who, by the way, are the ones that are also being migrated as refugees all around the world. And they're using these same digital tools to stay connected to their family and friends back home along with people who are exploring faith. All of these things are beginning to connect together. And I personally believe that that is something that Jesus is doing. He is the one that is creating these connections between his people in his church all around the world so that we can together make the great commission become the great completion and we can all go home. That's what I'm really excited about and looking forward to and just for us to be a part of that and whatever way that can be whether it's, you know, giving money, teaching an EDM course, multiplying and connecting with with others and supporting others and lots of ways that TCD

Does outside of EDM. That's just one of the tools.

There's a lot of other tools that we do to support our digital missionaries as well. And I know that you're going to talk about that in the next 12 hours or whatever.

We got plenty of time for that.

Yeah, we've got all kinds of things that we do to support our digital missionaries. But to have people who feel the call but without TCD would feel isolated and alone as if no one understands them. To have a place where they have a tribe, people get me, people understand what Jesus is asking me to do. Oh, and they've got the tools and the resourcing and the help and the network and the relationships so that this can become a reality so that we can do this together.

Yes, let's do that. And the folks that give are a part of that resource, too. Because for those people that are international, there's no way that they could pay for anything.

Right?

There's just not. And we have a lot of discussions in our leadership team around well should we be charged for this, you know, we want to, you know, because stuff costs money and usually I'm the one who's always saying okay I got to say this again this is not going to work for the guys in Africa and the guys in Pakistan, it's not going to work for them.

Yeah.

We can't charge that for them.

So we got to figure out a different way of doing this and that's what Giving Tuesday is about.

Yeah.

And it's not just about the money either. It's about partnerships because where your treasure is, your heart will be also. If you want your heart to shift and to be more drawn to global mission, put your money there. Whether that's TCD or some other organization, I don't care. Put your money where you want your heart to be. And you will find that your heart is drawn there when you put your wallet there first.

No, I appreciate that very much. I know 60% of our audience is international. Like the Church Digital is not even a primary US-based organization at this point. And I think it's important to bring attention to that just to know we're not doing this for like, well we'll talk about gaming. We'll have some VR people on. Like there's a lot of US-based and you know upper class type technology things that we're doing. But the heart of this organization is not that. We've actually pivoted more towards how do we help people globally utilize these digital tools. And it's been beautiful finding leaders and empowering them in their context and equipping them with this and helping them learn how to adapt it.

I'm so excited at the ability of what we're talking about to move what we're doing with sharing Jesus online into the Hindi and Bengali.

Man, we'll have those guys on here in a little bit, within the next hour or so, and excited to have you all meet them and to talk about their respective ministries and the persecution that's happening there.

But you know, in many ways you were talking about Steve. You know, I remember the first conversation I had with Steve and he made a reference to it today where he's like yeah I want to be a missionary in India and I looked at Steve and I was like okay what do you know about India? And nothing. Do you speak, you know, Hindi, Bengali? Do you speak any of the languages? There's 12, 15, 1900 dialects. Do you speak any of them? No. Steve, when's the last time you ate at an Indian restaurant? Couldn't remember. All right. Hey, I love you, but maybe God's not calling you to India.

And it was so funny like I sat down with Steve and was like, "Tell me about your life, bro. Like, what's going on?" and he was telling me about how he was a recovering, he had cancer and he had a Facebook group of like 300 people, some strong Christians, some weak Christians, some non-Christians, who were in this Facebook group. But this Facebook group was built to support him while he was going through cancer recovery, chemo and things, you know. And I told Steve I was like, "Steve, that's your mission field right there, bro. You got 300 people in that Facebook group who are loyal enough to you, who have seen you go through hard times and good times. You need to, they're already bought into you. You need to share Christ with them."

And it's been so much fun seeing him. You know, we talk a lot about, you know, we've talked a lot about global, which is incredibly powerful global, but Steve's story is really a small intimate story of a man who has started doing missions intentionally in this Facebook group with people who are, you know, Christians that he's encouraging to go evangelize, disciple, multiply, consumer Christians that he's encouraging to go more, you know, more of a disciple-driven mindset, and then non-Christians he's trying to draw closer to Christ.

And so that's the beauty I think of how we look at these gospel conversations, of how we're trying to use digital to help anyone and everyone grow closer to God. It's not just a conversion and you're done. But how do we get you to understand Jesus even to the point of multiplying and telling others about Jesus? Getting off that spiritual milk and getting you on solid food, getting to you where you can teach yourself.

You know, it's interesting when you say that with Steve's story because Steve's story ended up becoming global through EDM and all these other ways digitally, but it didn't start there, right?

And I feel like part of the Great Commission that is sometimes not quite understood, the nuance in the word when Jesus said go, the word go there is passive. It could almost be read as as you are going about your life, make disciples. Now the make disciples is active. That's not passive. That's something intentional that you need to do.

And so I think a lot of even our EDM course is around helping people understand how to use the digital tools that they're already using and how to go as they go digitally using those tools to make disciples intentionally as they passively go digitally.

And what ends up happening is because digital unlocks geographic barriers. It unlocks a lot of different barriers, but one of the big ones is the geographic one. Jesus will bring you people from different parts of the world. How many types of WhatsApp messages or Facebook messages have I received from people that I don't know all around the world? Sometimes they're scammers and sometimes they're real people. But the thing is is that as I go digitally using digital tools as I normally do, Jesus is the one who brings people to me.

Kind of like how Jesus brought Philip to the Ethiopian eunuch. That wasn't on his plan. He was just doing his thing. And that's the opportunity that we have now is to use these digital tools and intentionally leverage them towards gospel conversations that make disciples that make disciples that gather in digital churches that send out more digital missionaries to do the same.

Yeah, so good. Sorry, missed the cough button. Listen, the Church Digital.

Well, you didn't black out.

Yeah, thank you for that. The Church Digital, we're at a breaking point right now. We're on a cash freeze. We're not paying leadership. We're not paying any stipends, salaries, contracts at this point. And it's all centered around we want to keep the lights on. We want to keep things going. We want to keep doing what we're doing. But the reality is that we can't afford it. God is challenging us and God is multiplying these bread and these fish. God is bringing us opportunities and we're literally choked up. We can't do it. And it's kind of as the leader of the organization, it's kind of at a breaking point for me as I'm coughing so much. Forgive me. But it's at the point of, "Okay, God, you want us to do this? I don't know how we're going to."

Well, we will. I mean even if we like, say for example let's say we don't get funding, that what's beautiful about Jesus' church is that it was never about funding to begin with. Now the thing is is that outside of some kind of miracle thing happening, which God can do, He can do that. It's just going to go slower because we'll get scrappy. We'll start using, you know, free services and doing all these other things. We will still get the job done. It just won't happen as fast as we would like.

And what I want to see is for this to go fast. I want to see because and here's why. For me, if we go slow, yeah, we'll use less money because we want, you know, there won't be any money to use. We'll use less money. The problem is is I'm thinking about those people who feel called and feel alone and feel misunderstood. They won't get connected.

Yeah. And I think of the people who, because we won't have it in their language, you know, and it'll just be something that they'll live with the frustration. And I also think of the people that those missionaries, those potential missionaries could have reached, their network of relationships that are being today, this past year, leveraged for the gospel.

I think about those people who are in unreached areas, who are in persecuted areas that won't get the message as quickly as they need it. And that to me puts a fire under me to say this is why we need to go fast. It's not so that people can get paid.

Yeah.

Or that we can use platforms that we enjoy. It's really not about that. It's about accelerating mission for people who need Jesus. And I want to be a part of what Jesus wants to do for the sake of those people. That's what I want to be a part of.

Yeah. Because I want to be, you know, when I go up to heaven one day I want to stand before Jesus who has given me everything and then some and hold my head high and say okay you said go make disciples of all nations, check. You know, I hold my head high there and after hearing from Jesus' voice, "Well done good and faithful servant, enter into the joy of the Lord." I feel like that the joy is going to come from all of the thousands and perhaps millions of people through this multiplicative ripple effect of the gospel that have been touched by the work that we have been called to do alongside Jesus. That is going to be joy. And I want there to be a whole bunch of people up in heaven to celebrate with and have more crowns to throw at Jesus' feet.

Yeah.

That's why I want to go fast.

Yeah.

Because without it, we'll still get it done. We're because we have this fire in us and we'll still do it. You know, it'll we'll still do it. It just won't be as fast. It won't get translated as quickly as we would like because those AI translations cost money. They cost tokens for us to do it. And I don't know how else to pull that off. And so I just I want the mission to get done, you know, and I want to be a part of it and I want you to be a part of it.

So that's why I feel passionate about that.

Amen. Man, you're always good for the sermon, my friend. It was great here. Jason Morris is nailing it. I mean, listen, the reality is is I'll be honest, and I think I already said this on the broadcast. I make $1,000 a month off the Church Digital. Actually, nobody makes money off the Church Digital right now. We're on a budget freeze, but 1,000 bucks. Like that's the cost. That's my benefit to running a global missions organization. For the next 12 months, I promise you I'm not going to increase that.

I mean, if we did two 10x the budget to 2x the budget, 10x the impact, that money is going global. That money is going to extend the reaches of that.

No one in the church digital, I think I can say this. No one in the church digital is going to make over $1,000 anytime soon.

Like it's funny, Jason. Jason, Jason, I we've actually talked about this. I really, I'm going to publish like our budget and like our expenditures publicly for people to see how little, how lean, and how tight this organization operates off.

Um, because I know coming from a, you know, a megachurch, a multi-site church, oh my word, they'll spend more on, it's like that's what I carry in my back pocket.

Let me write that check for you right now. You know, let's put it on my credit. Yeah, they spend more on coffee in a weekend.

You know, there are churches, no joke, like and I'm glad because there are churches that are reaching people. So I'm not throwing shade on anybody, right?

But just to turn on the HVAC costs $3,500. Yeah. Per service. And so stuff like that, fortunately, we don't have to deal with.

We can keep it lean and put more percentage of the dollars toward mission. Operational costs for us are such a small piece compared to what operational costs would be in any other model.

Yeah, it's crazy how much multiplication we can do on so little operational cost. And that is another reason why I personally love doing things digitally because of the stewardship value that we get eternally for such little investment.

It's so fun to on so little do so much. Very cool. Hey, we're bringing into the conversation. Uh, Mike, I apologize. Uh, it's J-Mo and I can talk all day long. Uh, and so, uh, Micah, uh, Micah Bales is, uh, is our outpost leader for Digital Church.

And, and Micah, Micah, Jason, man, I'm happy to have you stick around, but if you need to go, I know your schedule's tight. Uh, I yield to you.

Yeah, I've got to go. I've got to go. It's good seeing you, though, Michael. Micah, it's good seeing you, man.

Hey, Micah, you're muted. I love our conversations. But uh, J-Mo, I'm gonna let you go. Thank you, my friend. All right, we'll see you. Bye.

All right. Hopefully Mike can get his mic working. I wasn't muted on my end, but I had to switch what the input was.

Okay. I mean, I'm not saying dude works for Google and had tech problems. So if anybody should not have tech problems, it should be you.

Yeah, we've even got tech problems at Google. So that's why I'm there. Dude, show off the shirt. Show off the shirt. I haven't seen that.

Oh my gosh, that is my, it's my favorite. That is one, probably one of my top three favorite GIFs. Homer Simpson just slowly disappearing into the hedge.

Um, hey dude, there's a lot to talk about with you, man. Maybe introduce yourself a little bit, Micah.

Sure. Yeah, my name is Micah Veils and um I've been, I've been uh participating in the church digital for about a year now.

Uh, it's been a really good year. Um, and uh, I head up digital church planting with TCD, and that's just sort of getting started.

We're like in, is there something before beta? Because I think that's what we're in. Um, but, uh, I'm a brick-and-mortar church pastor actually in the San Francisco Bay area.

I'm, my wife and I are pastors at Berkeley Friends Church, which is a little Quaker church in the East Bay. Um, and I'm also a part of a digital expression, a microchurch network called Anchor.

Um, that's been going for um in some ways for a couple years now and in a more intensive and uh and strategic way um during this year.

Um, and yeah, my experience with the church digital has been really positive. Um, both in terms of I feel like what I've been able to bring to others, um, but also what I've personally gotten and just sort of rubbing shoulders with folks who are really serious about this type of ministry and thinking outside the box, um, has been really helpful for me in my own ministry. Even as I'm able to support others, I've been supported.

Um, and so like I give a lot of credit to you, Jeff, and to this organization that you and many others have been building.

Um, that this is a place, this place where someone like me who's like I'm fully engaged in what you might call traditional church ministry of like a Sunday morning brick-and-mortar congregation, but like my ministry does not stop there.

And not all of my ministry is necessarily even expressed in that brick-and-mortar ministry. And I can do both. And there's Venn diagrams and there's some overlap, but they're not, they're also they don't have to be the same thing.

It doesn't all have to be under one umbrella.

Let's do this. We're talking about digital churches. You help people plant digital churches and you work with people that run digital churches.

Uh, somebody watching this is going to be like, "What's a digital church? I don't understand." Maybe walk through a little bit. You're a physical church guy.

You understand the digital. Maybe help somebody that's more used to the physical structure understand how a digital church um biblically functions.

Yeah. So I mean uh you know I think my understanding as a Quaker, uh something really important for Quakers is that you know when Jesus tells us in John, um, wherever two or three are gathered in my name there I am among you. And uh we understand the church to be the body of believers. And I think that's something that TCD is really strong on, that the church is not a building. The church is not a place.

The church is not even an organization. The church is people uh gathered by Jesus. And so, uh, I think even us Quakers who like this is a very important part of our DNA that we believe this, um, we often get really hung up just like all churches, I think often do, um, on the building, on the denomination, on the bylaws, on the staff, on the structures. Um, and all those things can help strengthen the church, but they're not the church.

The church is the people. And something, uh, when I've been engaging in digital church that becomes really clear is that uh all those structures, uh work really differently in the digital space and in some ways many of those structures are like for a building, for example, are far less relevant.

Um, and the people come to the forefront um in the digital space. You're dealing with technologies and maybe the technologies and the platforms are sort of our new buildings, but the people, the people are really where it's at.

Um, and so the type of digital church planting that I've been uh most involved with um has been what I would call microchurch.

Um, and uh I would even say like micro microchurch, even like literally where two or three are gathered, like some of the groups I've been starting, um, you know, are starting with like three or four or five or six people and going from there. And like, you know, when we reach, uh, you know, eight people it's like well we need to, we need to like go start new groups because this group is getting too big. And I think in the particular format digitally that we're doing it, that makes a lot of sense because um I think with a building, with a building in-person brick-and-mortar church, there's often a big emphasis on large gathering and like how many people can we get together in a room and that's like our measure of success.

And in the digital format, I have found it much easier um through the structural constraints of like, I mean have you ever been on a Zoom call with 20 people? Like most people can't actively participate in a Zoom call with 20 people. But if you're in a Zoom call with three or four people um then it's a whole different ballgame and there's, it's much more of a conversation and interactive. Um, and so I think there's actually a structural impetus in digital uh to go small um and to network. Um, and so that just leads to a really different kind of church structure than you might see automatically uh with um a brick and mortar.

So, uh, yeah, that I would say that's a big difference. Um, there's also, as you know, we're fundraising right now for Giving Tuesday and like obviously like TCD needs money.

You know, we do have digital platforms that we're paying for. We do have people that we're equipping. In some cases, that's financial equipping.

But I will say like compared, and you've already alluded to this, Jeff, like compared to a brick-and-mortar church, the impact of TCD and the impact of the ministries that are being equipped through TCD is so massive compared to, I mean you've got many churches out there with multi-million dollar budgets and like I'm just pulling the statistic just out of my memory. I don't have a citation so take it with a grain of salt.

But like, you know, I have read that in many cases, you know, when they went and calculated the cost of bringing one person to Christ in a traditional church and it was like a million dollars, right? Like, like incredible, the traditional brick and mortar church is incredibly costly just in material terms to do it the way many churches have gotten used to it. And um, you know, uh, that's not the case with, that doesn't have to be the case with digital.

We are freed from this, this fundraising. Ironically, because I know we're on a fundraiser right now, but in many ways we are freed from the fundraising cycle um because our needs are so small um and we can. And that's what excites me in the digital space. And I'm actually wanting to bring it back and incorporate it more into my brick-and-mortar church um this emphasis on personal discipleship um and both, you know, the personal transformation but then also sharing the good news with other people, you know, in all those personal contexts. Um, and so like, yeah, I would say like the format of digital church for me has had sort of a virtuous impact on my non-digital ministry.

Um, because it's gotten me thinking really differently about people. Oh, I think we lost your sound. My dog was barking. Thank you.

Yeah, the goal of how we do digital church, the goal of how we do digital missions work is highly relational.

And so the thing I love about you is that you do view and you utilize digital from a micro. It's not let's get 10,000 people to watch a live stream.

It's let's get three or four people in a Google Meet or a Zoom call and have a conversation. It's how to build relationships using these tools, not create consumers, but instead how to build relationships that lead towards a discipleship mindset.

And you know, it's so beautiful to see that idea multiplied. And I know you're, we're doing an alpha training right now for um uh you know, sorts of the church planting and we're going to probably roll that out, I would assume officially next year at some point. Um, you know, I know one of the things even talking about, you know, your physical church, Micah, um, I want to start, uh, myself moving some of these ideas in, instead of working direct with um, you know, people with missionaries.

How do we create an outpost mindset in a church? How do we help a church start to create digital missionaries to the point where they can start to release and be mobilized? And well, maybe they're not digital, maybe they want to be physical missionaries engaging in physical things.

That's great, too. You know, it's like how do we release these people? How can we help the church do that? It's so funny. I'm actually I'm working with the church right now, um, doing that, and um, and we had we've had one meeting so far and I pitched the vision and um, and one of the guys in the group raised his hand and he's like, "What you're describing is incredible, but what you're describing is countercultural to our church because the church doesn't have that um, multiplication discipleship mindset within it, within its body."

You know, it's just not there. And it's like, cool. So let's figure out how to adjust that. Let's figure out how to experiment that. Let's start with something and kind of see where we grow from it.

Yeah. I go ahead.

Oh, just uh, I would say like so early on, as when we were in like even more alpha with digital church planning than we are now, we specifically started out focusing on micro, and now we're expanding that a little bit, like where we're like, "Hey, it doesn't have to be micro. Like there could, there can be, and are macro church, macro expressions of digital church, and we want to support that too." But I do think nevertheless that uh, micro offers a very unique opportunity in that um, it is an option uh, digitally, and it is facilitated, as I said, by the technology in a way that like micro, micro obviously comes first in digital space. It's much more obvious that that's that's an initial movement.

Um, and the uh, the obvious initial move in in-person brick-and-mortar church expressions is to the attractional. "Hey, we we rented this space. Come to this location at this time on this day and experience this experience together that we are providing for you." And like that's the more obvious move.

But I I think that uh, from micro we are learning that um, I've been seeing that that attractional pattern and that place-based pattern often locks churches in to uh, a model where faith becomes something for each individual in the church. Faith becomes something that's very personal and private. And if someone else is going to like come and explore the gospel with the community, they need to come to this time and place in this building. And that's where it's acceptable to talk about this thing. But then when we go outside of the building, we're back in secular land and we don't talk about this. We don't express this as a part of our lives. We don't share this with people. We don't disciple other people because we think, "Oh, that's a private personal spiritual thing that, you know, is like for a different realm." And the great thing about micro is we break out of that, whether it's digital or not. We break out of this with micro and say like, "No, no, no, actually, like the only way that any of this happens, the only way that this community forms is by sharing and investing in people in our everyday lives, and we can't just wait for people to like come to an event because in micro there may or may not ever be an event. The event is the relationship, right?"

Yeah. It's so good. It's definitely a challenge. Um, but once again, doing something different reaches someone different. And so, you know, for the people, you know, if if you're um, a husband, wife with three kids and you're looking for a good children's program, something good Sunday school class to teach the kids, yeah, a digital option may not be the best for you because in the physical church, man, they do a great job um, you know, working with kids and stuff like that. But the people that we're reaching digitally, um, they're not there yet. They're asking questions. They're on a completely different spectrum. And I love, we're going to get more into it, the digital churches on the gaming specifically and some others, but I love that um, that we have people that are investing into niche spaces, um, in niche markets trying to connect with people digitally specifically to build a relationship to share Jesus. You know, it's that begin with prayer, listen to the person, uh, and then do an experience, connect with them, continue to build that relationship together.

And so, Micah, man, uh, thanks for jumping on here. Um, I admit, is there anything else we need to talk about? I'm I'm actually—

I would say the main thing, the main thing I would add is, you know, uh, if you are interested in this, if if if God has been hinting to you that maybe uh, there is more for you to do in terms of discipleship, in terms of developing communities that are centered around Jesus, if that's of a curiosity to you or maybe if you're already involved in that work in some way and and you'd like to be a part of a community of practitioners, um, we have that community of practitioners and we have that report. And uh, at this point, even before, you know, we we haven't even launched really, um, but even before we do a larger, more organized rollout, we already have a monthly, a monthly call um, with a group of practitioners who are working on these things, and and they're really impressive group of people. And you, whoever you are out there listening to this, you could be a part of that. Um, so I just encourage you to reach out to us, join the Discord, jump on WhatsApp, uh, reach out. Um, this is already happening. Um, and I I know, I know for me, you know, I've been involved in in sort of what I would call like gospel community organizing uh, for a very long time and developing communities, and uh, when I when I got started and for a very long time, I never felt like I had any support. I never felt like I had a community of people who knew anything about this.

Um, because you know, uh, you folks may or might know this, but uh, Quakers used to be extremely evangelistic. Um, but for a long time, Quakers have been more inward-looking, uh, for the most part. And, uh, Quakers don't have a strong culture of discipleship and evangelism, which is something I would I would love to see change. Um, but like I had no models, I had no resources, I had no mentors. And so, if that's your position, if you're like, if you are disconnected from a community of of practitioners that is doing this and experimenting and learning, you know, there is a place for you here. And I hope you'll hope you'll come join us.

So good. So good, Micah, man, thanks for hanging out with us. You may be the only Quaker I know. I don't think I know a lot of Quakers uh, here in Miami or beyond. So I I love that. Um—

Yeah, I I know you I like your oatmeal, but that that may be, you know, the extent of of my knowledge.

Um, that's funny. We've got Arno. Uh, I've been working on some tech, and yes, uh, even if it's for Jesus, it still costs money.

Um, oh, this is fun. Look at this. Uh, Mr. Pete from Northern Alabama. He's broadcasting this in virtual reality big screen right now. Uh, Mr. Pete is—

Oh my gosh. Mr. Pete, I should have had you on this thing, man. Mr. Pete is is very old. I don't want to put a number, but I would say it's eight something. It's definitely not seven. He's got to be eight or above. Um, but 80 or above, but he's a digital missionary and is um, uh, in big screen specifically, which is a virtual reality world. And so Mr. Pete, thanks for broadcasting us in the big screen, and I hope your conversations in in virtual reality go uh, well today. Um, yeah, is it online church or she would be asking, is it church online?

Okay. All right. I I I get you. Uh, I've started using digital church as as just because online church feels like it's a broadcast of a church service, and we want to do something more than just broadcast the church service. Like, look, if you want to if you want to broadcast your church service online, I can help you in in five minutes. Um, literally, I worked with a church and and got them a stream up recently in a month, and they're and now they're reaching, you know, hundreds on on YouTube every week, and and it's it's it's a great story. I love that. But, you know, the question is always, well, now that you got these people, what are you going to do with them? You know, you're connecting to a couple hundred people a week. That's nice. You put a short online and it's got 1,200 views. That's awesome. Uh, who are they? What do you know about them? What are their spiritual needs? Uh, because in my opinion, God's given you uh, the responsibility to care for them. Go to town, start to figure it out. And so, yeah, I I love that. Oh, by the way, u evidently Mr. Pete is 84, 84 years old. 84 years young. Hey, Lighthouse, are we are we up soon or um, uh, not? I'm I'm checking the schedule anyway. Uh, no, you're you're up later, man. My fault. Um, come on early if you can. I'm looking forward to uh, Lighthouse talking here in a minute. Hey, um, listen. Oh, that came up again. Don't come up again. Go away. Awesome. Micah, man, thanks for hanging out with me today. I appreciate it. And um, if you're more interested, Micah, how do people do you have a TCD email address? How do people get in touch with you? What's the best way?

Sure. And of course, right when I ask him that question, he freezes. Never freaking fails. We've had a lot of internet issues today. All right, let's just say this. If you're interested in getting in touch with Micah, um, to get plugged in, uh, hit him up in Discord or WhatsApp. You know, I really haven't talked much about the communities here. Um, Discord or WhatsApp, uh, it's um, uh, you know, if you know uh, the church.digitalfam, the church.digitalfam. Um, that'll get you into uh, it, let you choose between the two communities. Uh, you know, now that I say that, I actually want to make sure that link actually works. Um, it's been a minute since I've done this. I am not in stream condition. Yeah. Yeah. The church.digitalfam. I'm like physically I'm not. This has been a. It's been a month since I've streamed. Um, and so like my, I'm just tired. Body is not holding up. It's not what it used to be. Uh, but we got we got Wes Brooks coming up here right now. Let me say this. Uh, we we've had a couple donations come in and I'm very thankful for uh, for those that that that are coming in. Um, and so it's been friends and so so love that. We have a. Listen, I'm begging you here. Like this is not me like being a a jerk, but we have a $5,000 uh, gift, uh, a $5,000 donation, but it was set up to be a matching donation. And so that $5,000 is only good unless we can get another group of people to get $5,000. And and so right now I've got a 5,000 and a 2,000. But right now, uh, I need, uh, some money to come in. And so, do me a favor. Go to the church.digitalgive. The church.digital/give. And, um, just 10 bucks, 15 bucks, 25 bucks a month. Set it on repeat. I'm drinking water for the rest of my life. No more coffee. Starbucks. I have an unhealthy Starbucks habit and I I am no longer allowed to drink coffee. Uh, and so my poor Starbucks barista, like man, they're I that that place may go out of business because all the money that I've I've I've spent there over the years. But maybe, just maybe, give me, give me, give the Church Digital one cup a week, 20 bucks a month. Um, you know, two cups, uh, you know, 40, one cup every couple weeks, 10, whatever it is. Start to maybe give a little bit back to the church digital. Help us a hit this matching grant, but b uh, 10x our impact, watch this thing scale as we've been able to uh, to build it and and run with it at this point. Hey, um, I've got. Okay, so let's bring up uh, who's next? Let me hit a couple buttons here and and bring on uh, Wes, you just went away, bro. I had you and didn't have you. Um, Wes, if you're in the room, I'm going to go back. Um, I'm going to hang up on you, Wes.

And why don't you try to come back in? I think you froze on me at the last minute again. We've been having some tech issues with the interviews coming in.

Wes is a programmer with Hello Venture. Does a lot of stuff with AI, virtual reality, virtual discipleship, digital discipleship using AI.

And so anyway, looking forward to that conversation with Wes coming up here hopefully in a minute. Um, it's funny. My, I've got three or four or five monitors like in front of me right now.

One, two, three, four, five, six, couple iPads, seven, and a TV in the back. Okay, it's a little excessive. Um, like screen time for me is crazy because every device is always on all day.

Um what happens is I got my text messages over here on my left and it's just boom boom boom boom boom boom boom boom. People, you know, checking in on me on my health and, you know, oh you got to do this and don't forget this and how's it going. And so lots of it, lots of it coming back in. Um, yeah, so Wes is trying to reconnect as I'm stalling. No problem, Wes, appreciate it.

Um, let's see. There is a ministry in virtual reality also. Definitely. Uh, you know what, Mr. Pete, I'll take a minute here and just, you know, talk about some of the stuff that is happening in VR.

We are helping, we're working closely with a number of churches in virtual reality, VR MMO, a lot. We'll actually have one of VR MMO's pastors on later today. Pastor Koko who does church in, um, big, or no, I'm sorry, in Final Fantasy. And Mr. Pete does a lot in Big Screen. And I know we've got VR Tiger who does stuff in VR Chat, which is popular right now. And one of our conferences we even did in virtual reality, and I hope to do another one. I really wanted to do a conference in Roblox. But here's what I know: like, virtual reality people are like, well, it's not really adopted, like there's not a lot of virtual reality users.

Um, yeah, but there's enough to make it worthwhile. Like, there are enough people in virtual reality to have to build relationships, to have a conversation. Like, there is community that's in there. If you're gonna, if in America or anywhere, like you don't plant a church in some small town with an idea to reach the entire state or country. You plant a church in a small town to reach that community. The community of virtual reality is worth investing in.

Um, does everybody have headsets? No. Can you still engage in virtuality and be part of it even without the headset all the time? I know people that run virtuality churches and never bought a headset. They just do it from the computer, from a web browser. The point being is that people in virtual reality, they're looking for community. They're looking for conversations. They're looking for relationships. And guys like Mr. Compete, 84 years young, are doing an incredible job relationally, building relationships and meeting people in that space.

All right. Hey, let me push this button and see if we can get Wes on.

There we go. Working. Hey, how's it going?

Man, every time I see this, it feels like it's this great backdrop, but that's where you like at a coffee house or home. Is that a virtual backdrop? What are you, what am I seeing right now?

Uh, yeah, that's Apple Campus, but I'm at my house.

Oh, you got the job at Apple. Congratulations, man. That's so exciting.

Yeah. No, no, it's not. Yeah.

We could do industry wherever, right?

Yeah. I mean, listen, if you can't work there, just steal the JPEG, put it as a background, and dream about it one day.

That's gorgeous. Well, hey, man. Um, tell us a little bit. I wanted to tell them a little bit about, you know, what you're doing with AI, Hello Venture, like a digital discipleship, like just update us a little bit on what you're doing.

Yeah, so thanks for having me on. Um, really love what the Church Digital does. It's been a big part of our journey of starting up a new ministry and doing something brand new.

Um, and so we were missionaries with Cru previously and worked in their global office for a bunch of years. But then recognized that as much work is happening that God is doing in the digital evangelism space, there's a desperate need for discipleship that can scale at the same pace as evangelism online.

And so we set out a couple years ago to say what needs to exist, what needs to be created for that. And so with that, we created Venture AI. You can go to hello venture.ai online to get access to join our wait list. But basically it's an AI discipleship tool.

It's meant to help people that are new or exploring, getting started in the faith, to find and take their next best step with Jesus.

And it's all about giving you the right next step. And so that is small, micro steps. When we think about church, traditional church formats, it's often times like what's the class you're going to or what's the thing that you're trying to do, um, read a book or some big monolithic thing. And our heart DNA is that especially for the TikTok generation and for people that are engaging online, you got to really be bite-sized, small, what's something that they can do in five minutes or less a day.

And so that's what we've been building. We're in early pilot status right now. We're actually working with a bunch of streamers that are in the gaming space to hopefully you'll see us a little bit on Twitch very very soon to start to showcase, hey, what does it look like to ask questions to not just ChatGPT but maybe to something that's actually geared for helping you grow in your faith? And so whether that's bite-size questions and just things you're processing through, um, having kind of a more trusted tool that you can go to, but also something that actually helps you live it out and apply it in day-to-day life so that it's not just something that you do only online or only in person, but it's something that's holistic as a part of your everyday life, um, no matter where God has planted you.

And so part of that is growing and trusting in Jesus more. And so that's what we do is we've built a custom AI and a custom platform to help you finally take that next step to fall more in love with Jesus, to see him, to savor him, and to really share him in the world.

Very cool. So, um, I, you know, I didn't realize you were in the Twitch working with some streamers. That's cool. It'll be interesting to see how that develops and kind of grow out of the alpha to beta. Um, how so, and I'm curious. Hello venture.ai. But like, okay, so theologically, how much do you trust AI in that situation? And I know that that's going to be an interesting wrinkle, but like, what's your experience been so far?

You know, it's been really fascinating. We've worked with a lot of other organizations that are building custom AI models or they're working on all these harnesses around AI. We've found ourselves that there's a lot of different tools you can do to make AI more trustworthy and more reliable. Um, and it's ironically funny. I was talking with some ministry executives recently around, hopefully you guys can still see me, but talking with some ministry executives recently around AI use, and they were really concerned about how trustworthy it is. And it's funny, it's the, you know, we send off college interns and college students to do evangelism and discipleship all over the world. And so they're not going to get it right all of the time either. Um, and so there's an aspect of AI that we are working to make it more and more trustworthy over time and get it better and better.

But we found a lot of really great resources, especially if we position it rightly to helping people be more reflective rather than this is the answer for it. Um, there's some really great approaches we can take with that, but just a de facto chatbot out of the box probably is not going to do another internet freeze.

I have not had this problem historically. We, um, sorry, Wes, hopefully you can come back on. Um, like, you know, I've used this software. I've used the network here at the house. We've been fine. Uh, but today we've just had a lot of drop streams. I have, I can't ever remember even having one drop stream, much less five or six that we've already had today on this. And so maybe there's a problem with the software with an update or something like that. Have to get with Andy and figure out what's going on there.

But um, Wes has connected with us historically. Um, you know, is a great contact with formerly with Cru and has helped us really start to meet other people within the Cru ecosystem, which has been great. Uh, we spent a lot of time together out in Korea. Uh, I think I got him invited. I don't remember what, who did what, but we together were out in Korea at the Lausanne Congress, L4 Congress, Billy Graham's, um, one of Billy Graham's missions organizations. He created, literally, um, I don't, I mean, I forget the numbers, but 100 plus countries, 150 countries, 130 countries represented, 10,000 people globally. And we, the Church Digital, were invited out there to represent digital discipleship and digital missions and digital church planning. And it was incredible, the amount of energy of people that were passionate. I mean, really for us it was gasoline on the flame. Uh, and it really got us the global audience that we have now was off of the Lausanne Congress. And the thing that I love about Wes, and Wes is a developer, and we've got some developers inside the Church Digital, but they still stay active in context of community and they're still very active with what's going on in our community.

And so Wes is a contributor. He's a friend. He hangs out with us on Fam. He's a strong voice. He's an encourager within, I probably want to say he's more a Discord within the Discord Fam, but is also very strong connecting with us globally through WhatsApp as well. But due to for our communities and stuff that we're doing, we keep this stuff running all the time.

Um, there's, you know, even from the hospital, um, communities were we're being updated and engaging and people are having conversations. And um, you know, we do use free platforms as much as possible. We're on Discord and WhatsApp. We were formerly on another platform which I will not mention, Mighty Networks, and cost too much. And so we cut it back. We went small. We went cheap. We went where people were. And that's our hope is to keep things tight and cheap and go where people are.

But the unfortunate reality is even that costs money. And so we do need to eventually sometimes, you know, ask for money. And that's where we are now. We've got a $5,000 grant right now and we are looking for people like you to give a little something to help us financially give to the Church Digital.

And so you can do that at the Church Digital Give. The Church Digital Give. Um, man, even a $5 a month, a $10 a month, one cup of coffee a month to the Church Digital would go a long way in helping us in this vision.

Here's the reality: we need people like you out there who are watching this, even people that are in the community. We need people to own the vision of the Church Digital, TCD.

For the past seven years, I was being paid out of my back pocket, you know, or I was doing it and I wasn't making money at home. My salary went into TCD. There's actually a season of my life where I worked for maybe three, four, five different organizations all to kind of support TCD myself, and you know, we've gotten some grants and some things along the way, but the organization has grown beyond the capacity for me to support it. You know, and we do funnel. I am a sponsor from a donor for the church digital, and we do conferences where we get sponsors and that plays a big portion of what not only the conferences but it covers our funds during the year. But even in 2025, we need donors. We need people to step up and financially support the church digital.

Some of you have benefited from the church digital over the years. Some of you, maybe there's an opportunity now for you to step in and start to donate and help an organization move forward. And so I'm going to invite you to do that. The church.digital/churchdigitalgive. Well, I'm stalling right now because Wes, I'm assuming, had bad internet. And then now I'm not seeing Anesh. And I should be seeing Anesh. And Anesh is next up. Anesh is really an interesting guy from India. He lives in the Pacific Northwest. If either of you are watching right now, feel free to jump in the link and let's have a conversation. Let's see what's going on in chat right now. We can clear that. All right, flat cap. What's that? Reach conference. Twitch streamers are going to test out, yeah, the software and break stuff so it gets better. I love Twitch streamers because they do break stuff. I love people that break stuff. Like it's just fun. It's just fun breaking stuff. Arno, what system are we using? Oh, we're using eCam Live. It's a Macintosh-based software. Never had problems with it until with the interview until today. Don't know. And I've done this format before with eCam. We've actually, with today I've been using eCam officially a year. Last year's stream was the first time I ever used eCam. Now is the moment where I miss coffee. That was a very big yawn. I apologize for that. That was inappropriate. I just got really tired. All right, I'm popping my cough drop. Eat that for a while. I love Mr. Pete. Mr. Pete, I'm still here, bro. Still here in VR. Okay, Anesh is coming on. Let's get him registered. All right, Anesh. Let's push a couple buttons here and let's get Anesh into the room. Hey, Anesh. How's it going?

Hey, good Jeff.

Good, good, good. Hey, I can barely hear you. If you can speak up a little bit.

Okay. Am I audible now? Is it better?

Yeah, I think it's probably on my side. Let me see if I can make it go away. But hey man, tell me a little bit about yourself.

Hey, my name is Anesh. I am from India basically, but I'm here in the Pacific Northwest living in the Seattle area for the last three years. God brought me here, I would say, with a global vision equipping churches and missions to reach people in the digital spaces. So that's a common thread and common ground. That's how I got connected with Jeffrey through being introduced through one of my professors from Orsinus University, and it's been a great journey for the last close to two years now.

Yeah, so I remember we were. Who introduced us?

Um, I just blanked on Angela.

Angela Craig, pastor over at the time was, it's now Pursue Church Live. What was her church called when she had it?

I think she was the first. She had the first online church, I guess, during the COVID times.

Maybe. Yeah, it was her Daniel Heron. And she now teaches at a seminary up in the Pacific Northwest. But she got us connected, and you know, immediately a couple years ago, I think unless you were even in India at the time, I don't think you were even in America. It just really started to connect on this idea of digital mission work and using it. You know, and I know Anesh, you've spent some time doing research on that, and so maybe talk a little bit about what some of your findings are and some of the road that you're on on the research.

Um, yeah, like I have two aspects. One is the current research I'm doing, part of my doctoral studies. I'm trying to explore the relationship between technology and leadership, and very specifically with respect to artificial intelligence. So I'm trying to see how AI can be effectively used in the church and ministry space to improve the effectiveness or operations of the church or the missions at large. How leaders can use that and what is required and what is not required, or what are the challenges and barriers that leaders face with respect to implementing or integrating AI into the ministry space.

So I did a pilot study on that to understand what exactly is happening, what are the perceptions of leaders. And some months before, at the time I realized is like people, most of the leaders were still kind of keeping their fingers crossed, sitting on the fence, trying to understand what is happening, whether they can trust AI or not, because AI was hallucinating a lot at the time. But things have improved much better, less hallucination, more models coming into the domain, and AI has typically taken over most areas of human life. So primarily the confidence level has come up. So within these few months, it sounds like people whom I interviewed and who said, "Oh, I'm still not confident to jump into that," and then now they say, "I've started using AI. Like I give my sermons and ask it to prepare it as study notes, and I use AI for research purposes and so many things." So I see a big shift happening. But on the application side, how effectively it can translate the efforts of humans to reach out to people, to make the end goals meet, is something still brewing up. That's what I found.

The other side is like post-COVID, maybe how things started changing. Like I remember days when I was part of churches where regularly I hear sermons about pastors not encouraging people to use mobile phones to read the Bible, rather insist on carrying a physical Bible, and they were against social media and all these digital platforms that were just becoming popular. So it was always said, "Okay, are you on social media or something? Are you addicted to something?" Like, so those were the notions at the time.

So that's when God started intervening in my life and started speaking up to the use of technology in the ministry space. So I had big questions. I was telling God, "This is what the churches. How can I go? The same pastors say you should use Facebook, use YouTube. How are they going to accept those?" I had questions, and I was asking God, and that is precisely the time when COVID hit, the world went into a lockdown, and everything shifted. The very same churches, like the pastors who were against all this technology, now they were running after it. And suddenly there was a huge demand for people who can help set up live streams, who can help churches go into different platforms.

So that changed the whole scenario, and we know today almost every church has got a live channel or a YouTube channel or a Facebook page. And now with new platforms coming in, you know, WhatsApp has become very popular in most of the Asian countries, and Discord is very popular in North American countries, and Snapchat and Instagram Live, and yeah, whatever way, yeah.

So that is a big shift, and I'm very interested about it.

You know, I want to talk about some of your work. You work with Jason Morris, J. Mo, on the equipping side and some of the translations, and so I want to get into that. But culturally, you know, India is different than America in many ways, obviously. How is the internet used differently in India, or some of these platforms? You know, we try to contextualize it. We're wanting to build into getting our stuff into Hindi and Bengali. That's one of the goals of 2025. We'll have some of our leaders on here in a little bit. But you know, how are these tools used? How are these communities embraced maybe differently in India than you see here in America?

So primarily the big difference I faced initially is the synchronous and asynchronous way of connecting with people. So asynchronous is something that we are talking big time here in the US, particularly even with the TCD in the early days when we were doing the beta. So asynchronous mode of teaching. But I would say in the Indian culture, like things are changing drastically now. Like it is more of a synchronous way. Our live sessions, we do a session, we teach something, and then we allow them time to do research. It's not the other way around. Like here we share a video, we want people to watch that and come back into a session to discuss. Like most of the times it's the other way around. You teach first and then allow people to think over and come back with your comments.

That is one. The other one is like, again, most of the time people want to be live, to be more participatory, or else like they're passive participants. Like they are silent listeners or watchers. They will only like to watch what is happening, what the other person is trying to say. I mean, again, I cannot 100% generalize this because India, you know, it's a multilinguistic place. It is a multicultural country. Every state has got its own cultural paradigm and dynamics. But by and large, like Indians were taught to be very nice by being calm and quiet in a public setup. Like critical thinking is the same. Like we were taught to listen, understand what the teacher or the professor or the pastor says, accept it, and never try to voice out in a public place. Like if I raise a question in a public place, it's almost like kind of trying to put the other person down. So those are all some cultural things. Like I also had a difficulty in adjusting in this aspect when I started my research here because critical thinking is a big time thing, big time here, and every paper, every book that we need to, we need to critically confront the comment or critical analysis about the paper. So I really found it hard.

Wow. You know, and that's.

So sorry. So you're telling about Jason More as an EDM. So in that aspect, like we are trying to apply all these aspects into the equipping digital missionaries cohorts and other.

Yeah, our hope is to contextualize all of these, the cohorts and the content and the trainings and even the community. Um, once again, the goal is not to create one massive the church digital as much as to decentralize and create contextualized versions of it.

You know, our move to WhatsApp a year ago, couple years ago, year and a half ago, I guess at this point, was really centered around a more international context where, you know, Anesh actually was one of the global leaders. We had three or four, Simon, Utope, a lot of our global leaders at the time a year ago came into us and said, "Hey, if you want to, if you want to be global, you got to get off Discord because Discord doesn't work, you know, in some of these underresourced and low bandwidth regions." And so, you know, and there's two billion active users of Facebook right now. Literally 25% of the world's population already has WhatsApp, you know, on their smartphone on the homepage.

And so it's like, yeah, I mean, why why would we not be on there?

And um, you know, Anesh, you've been vital into our understanding of of that.

Hey, with um talk to talk to me a little bit about specifically, we had Jason on earlier with Simon and Julie talking about some of the the French translation.

I know right now you're a project manager working with Jason and kind of developing some of those ideas like tell me some of your experiences on on creating these trainings uh in different languages.

Oh, that's a that's an interesting project that uh where we are we got to use technology in a big time. Uh so we started with uh creating a course in English and did beta through WhatsApp and then move to our platform.

Uh we have a LMS platform where people can be part of a cohort or the leader can start driving this program where they get to uh it's kind of a drip like uh sequentially follow so every uh video or an audio or a lesson that they need to read and after that it will open up the next component and the leader can always have a line or people can always uh give their comments give their feedback and there can be uh huddles based on that. But the biggest problem or the challenge that we face is not everybody is very comfortable with English even though English is one of the uh most spoken language. So what do we do? So how do we translate this videos? So that's why we try to use the subtitling options but thanks to AI today we could translate everything into different languages.

We could see Jeffrey Jason and Dr. Harries and all of the people suddenly speaking in different languages. I mean the the the visuals are the same. We hear the same uh tone to Jeffrey typically speaking in his own voice in French, German and other things. So thanks to technology. Uh so that's what we are working on. We are almost done with creating the Indian course in French.

Beautiful. And and so the and it's funny like the goal I I would say as the guy whose voice is getting translated into French, excuse me, the goal is not for, you know, me to be the French speaking via AI forever. The goal would actually be to get someone in French to own the material and to translate it into their own context. But if I can be a step a stop a stop gap uh to make that happen, that's the win.

You know, there's some I want to get into like some of the the theology of that, but you know, I don't want to be the white man coming to save the day either, but I'm very excited uh about the workshop.

Well, it was good.

This is the first step, right? Yeah, this is the first step. Uh so I'm just stepping in and give you time relax. So it's a it's a it's a it's a steps like different steps. We started with just English videos and English videos with subtitles in different languages and now we the users can also hear uh uh the resource person uh speaking in their own language and in the process we in TCD we're also talking about raising leaders.

So leadership development is a all-time uh stuff like we want to identify people, train them and give them the passion and equip them in all possible ways so that they can reach out to their community. And then comes okay we will have resources uh videos and other content recorded by those leaders in those native languages itself. That is going to be the next or the forthcoming goals and road maps.

So we really need people who can rally behind us, support us and uh and hold hold this vision going forward so that we can reach the millions and millions of people who are connected to the digital world but where church is not at present.

Yeah. When we say 10x the impact I mean this is literally we're at we're at the doorstep where man I probably do need a break. Andy, if you're around, you're welcome to come on, man. Um the um if you got if you got 15 minutes, I could probably cough it out.

Uh but yeah, we've got we're right at the doorstep of having incredible impact um with this. We've got the systems built and and we just we we need a we need a little more. We need we need a little push. And and I'm inviting you. Maybe this is your opportunity. Maybe God's inviting you to join us. Listen, you got a guy who's been talking for almost four hours uh with the flu and a heart condition.

Um this is a incredible opportunity globally. Uh Anesh, you are the MVP. Anesh is incredible working in the background doing so much with the church digital asking the hard questions um and and doing doing what he's doing.

Um, but um, man, listen, the the Church Digital, it's funny. I'm I'm going to bring Andy on um to maybe stall here for a minute for me.

But, um, you know, Andy's Andy's a He's wearing a nice yellow oriented outfit right now. I'm not going to ask him to take off his hat, but he's a a bald Yeah, he's a bald white dude like like me.

And it's funny, J Mo is a is a bald white dude who looks like me. And um Leighton has some hair, but let's face it, some it's it's it's decreasing on a on a basis.

The church digital exists um because and thrives because of the global influence that we have. Guys like Anesh, guys like Utope, guys like Simon, um women like Melanie, women like Stacy, um uh Purpose, like the the um it's it's a burden for me, and it's funny, we've got Demarcus will be on here in a little bit. Um, like it's it's a burden for me that that we're pushing a bunch of I'll just be honest, we're pushing a bunch of white men uh up here uh publicly um be because like the church digital is is larger than that and the church digital should not be limited by that and and so seeing leaders like like Anesh and Simon step in and fill the voids and and and speak into and help shape the culture that we have purpose as well helping to shape the culture of of the organ. organization is is a is a beautiful thing. And so Anesh, man, Andy said you are the MVP, man. You are the freaking MVP, man.

I am so happy that you're part of the team and and what you're doing. So So thanks for doing what you're doing. Okay.

Oh, thanks for the opportunity. Yeah.

Awesome. All right, Anes, I'm gonna I'm gonna let you go. Um and let me let me switch up some things, but thanks for hanging out with us today.

Thank you. Bye. Man, Andy, I'm sorry. I got I got all choked up. I I made you uh it it happens when you talk to people that are as awesome as Anesh.

When you start talking to all of our lead all of the leaders that are on here, when you start really seeing uh things that are going on around the world, it is tough to not get choked up.

And you you talk about uh 2xing the giving, 2xing our budget to 10x the impact. I mean, guys like Anesh, guys like Purpose, guys, uh, you know, everybody that we've seen, even Simon, like they're not based in the United States, man.

And that is that's one of those things that like makes my sort of bald white man heart just explode. Uh, and the idea, you know, you can see on the ticker here, we're sending missionaries to rethink church and to reshape missions.

Like, man, who else is doing this on the internet right now? Um, and you can see all of the giving links. Like, we do need your help.

Uh, Jeeoff, I feel like I'm your pitch man right now. Uh, we need your help to make sure that we can continue this because I don't know if you knew this, but we don't make a whole lot of money.

Uh, in fact, I think I think Jeff talked about the fact like most of us are volunteer fractional leader. That's the case. We're doing this with two and three other jobs.

I have two other jobs that I work. Jeff has like 14 other jobs that he works. That's how we do this. And so, and Jeff, poor man, is working himself so hard that he's worked himself into a a upcoming bypass surgery.

Uh, which, you know, God bless you, man. God bless you. Uh, you need to go take a nap or something. So, hey, sorry, I didn't mean to take over the stream there.

No, that it's it's good. Actually, I probably do need to take a nap. Um, and and audio audio whatever broke on me again, so I got to fix that.

But um yeah, the I mean the re the reality is is that we're creating a new model and we're doing ministry without the building. We're going where the buildings can't go, which is phenomenal.

Yeah. And and we're we're impacting people uh going that are globally and we're seeing multiplication happen as a result of this. And the stories coming in are just phenomenal over and over and over again. And and you know, it's it's funny, Andy, as we had a leadership meeting a couple weeks ago and was like, "Hey, yo, we're we're cash broke. Cash flow doesn't exist right now."

Yeah. Sorry. I for for those of you that don't know me, I I I get in front of the camera sometimes, but I'm also the guy who is just throwing a wet blanket on everything that's happening behind the scenes. That's me. I'm the bad guy.

He says that. True. it. It's true. Maybe. Maybe. I I I don't I don't want to I don't I don't want to back you into a corner, but um I I I will say I will say this that um it is a I mean, this is going to sound this is the this is the stupidest thing, but it's just it's it's resonating in my head right now.

God is going to make the God's going to multiply the loaves and the fish. We're so cash broke right now, we can't even afford to buy the fish that God's We need crumbs.

Like, we need the freaking crumbs so that God can do like I I just I I mean, I don't want to be stupid here, but we need the crumbs in order to multiply this this thing out.

Like, financially, we have um I'm just I'm going to let you peek behind the curtain. One day in the next couple months I'll probably make all this public but we have um three temples that help that financially two conferences that we do a year which is major fundraising for us through our sponsorship and global missions organizations and corporations are very excited about supporting us and and that covers you know a large percent of our operating cost for the year. It doesn't cover everything. And and so the the reality is is that this donations from individuals uh is is a big part of that.

And and our hope is by doing events like this Giving Tuesday. I mean, when I'm like, "Hey, we need your support." I mean, Jason's right at at the end of the day, like we we're probably going to keep doing this even if no money comes in. It's just going to be a lot slower because, you know, guys like Andy who have two or three jobs, they they I mean, he needs to make money to pay his mortgage.

I need money to pay my mortgage. And, you know, JMO JMO's got a a full-time very demanding job on the outside. And and so for us, um we we're providing these resources, we're providing this care, we're providing this coaching, we're we're providing this equipping and and creating mobilization opportunities globally.

Um and and let the system is here. We just need more crumbs. And so help us in this to to to to 2x our budget, 10x our impact. Help us buy more crumbs. You know, it's funny when when I'm literally saying crumbs. Um you know, I mean, to do streaming, it costs about a buck 38 to stream uh the church digital. It whether it's my show, and this is the the marketing, the editing, the pre, the post, like all all the work for that. Uh, and so like 50 bucks a week for a show, for an hour show, 60 somewhere in there.

Um, I mean, what would buying 10 minutes a month cost? Uh, what would buying some shorts uh cost? You know, looking at it even on the on the cheap side, uh, an email that goes out costs about three cents per email uh, that that goes out.

This is an incredible incredible opportunity to equip, encourage, and empower somebody missionaries globally. We've got an incredible open open rate. I think our open rate's 50 60%.

Like people are engaging with this stuff via email. I'm asking questions, they're dialoguing back. We've written blogs and stuff about this. Like the community has bought in to this, but we're in this really difficult situation where financially we need to keep the lights on and we need more, more, we need more crumbs to offer to God and say here, do what you can with it because right now we we broke. Go ahead.

And one thing that everybody does need to know, I see we've got a number, a bunch of people that are watching and people that are going to watch this later after we, you know, get this all cut up.

Jeff is the first one to say, "Hey, I won't get paid this month." And I I know he talked about that earlier in the stream. But it, we don't do this to make money. We do this because we believe that our corner of the kingdom that God has opened the door to, we believe that this is so important that we're willing to work other jobs just to make sure that people can see the name of Jesus being spread in a digital capacity.

And you're watching it. It's slow going, but we're watching EDM explode. I mean, we have had what, three graduates from EDM now that are doing things within our organization. Four graduates from EDM. I mean, that's a lot, lot more than that. But yeah, where we've created outposts and things like that. Yeah, that's that's going with that.

And and that's where I'm going with that. And you know, you, the idea behind, I don't know about any church that you guys have ever been part of, but I was, I've been a part of, you know, I've been a pastor for four different churches now, and three of them have been in person, and one of them has been digital. But the three in-person churches always would say, "Hey, we want to bring people up through our ranks. We want to train them. We want to equip them through our ranks from youth group all the way up through, you know, gen, whatever, you know, full-time kids ministry and all the things. We want to train them to be our leaders." We're doing that and we're doing that on crumbs. And so, anything that you can give to us at Giving Tuesday or at the church.giving Tuesday, there's a big old button that says donate there. Anything you can give is going to help multiply that impact. Three hundred eighty-one, almost three hundred eighty-two to keep us running for twenty-four hours. That's nothing. I mean, that's that's a that's a moderate car payment. Although if I had a car payment was three hundred eighty-one bucks, I'd be sign me up, man. I don't know if you knew that insurance interest rates suck in the United States right now. But all that to say, anything that you can give, five, ten, twenty bucks, do the Daniel Herren of the world, fifteen bucks a month, like anything is going to help us.

And it sounds like we're graveling a little bit, but we we need your help. We need your help to make impact in this world. Go ahead, Jeff. Again, I keep taking over.

Hey, talk a little bit about the streaming network while you're on here.

Yeah. Um, so one of the things that we're actually going to be doing is we have had this big push to decentralize who we are as the Church Digital. Um, that that that guy over there, uh, sorry, my camera's reversed, that guy over there. He's been doing a lot of the heavy lifting and yeah, he's been doing a number of things and the content has been coming from guys like Jeff, guys like Leighton, uh, guys that really have been on our screens a lot and we wanted to, we wanted to start to split that up. We wanted to democratize it and decentralize it a little bit.

And so starting in January of twenty twenty-six, you're going to be seeing a lot more faces through our brand new TCD streaming network. Now, I say streaming, it's also going to be a podcast network. It's going to be really the next media empire. That's what we're creating. We're creating a church media empire. So, Carrie Newoff, watch out. TCD is coming.

We're going to be bringing a number of different faces, a number of different people into our streaming network to run live streams, to run podcasts, to run live shows, to run, you know, digital shorts and things like that. We have, I think, three or four different people that are already signed up for the streaming network. People that we trust, people that we know are going to deliver a good product.

But outside of that, they're also going to deliver stories. I want to highlight two of them real quick. One, um, Demarcus Battle of Demarcus, if you're still on here, Bible with the Battles or Bible with the Battles, he is running a brand new show called The Digital Pavement.

What the digital pavement is, for the next couple of months, he's actually going to talk to people that are doing inner city missions in a digital context, inner city ministry in a digital context. And you might think, well, wait a minute, how does that work? Trust me, I've talked to Demarcus and I've seen the outline. We've been working through some things. My goodness, some of these stories are going to be amazing. His production value is top-notch. The way he speaks to the camera is top-notch.

Um, I love Demarcus and I've loved everything that he and his wife are doing with Bible with the Battles as well, but man, it was such a coup to kind of bring him under the TCD streaming network umbrella. So, that's one. The second one is our very own Leighton, sis, who, Flap the Flatcap Dapper Pastor. Now, Flatcap has been running a gaming podcast on Twitch, twitch.tv/thechurchdigital. He's been running a stream over there for, well, he's been running his own stream for like ten years, but he's also been doing an actual podcast with people.

Leon, how many shows do you have? Thirty or forty episodes already. Um, Leon is thirty-five.

Leon, confirmed. Yeah, Leighton confounds me because he just, he has no fear of walking up to somebody digitally or physically and saying, "Hey, do you want to be on a podcast?" There's no, like, there's no qualms about it. He just, he's just open with like, "Hey, we're doing this thing. We want to talk about Jesus. I know you're talking about Jesus. Let's do it." And so far he's gotten some really cool thirty-five episodes. Yeah. You can catch all of that on our YouTube channel as well as our Twitch network.

But we're actually going to be bringing that under the TCD streaming network. We're going to kind of rebrand it. We're going to give it a different little bit of a look. Still going to be the same awesome Leighton, Flatcap Pastor, but the idea behind it is again looking at separate corners of the internet that we're not really used to seeing in digital context. And that's being gaming and streaming and kind of the world that's going to be over here. And I know Leighton's going to be talking about this later on today.

Um, we're actually going to be bringing you some clips from our, uh, the gaming conference that we did, DMC Con, that, um, myself and Leighton actually helped put on back in October.

And one of the things that was talked about so strongly there is reaching into nerd and gaming culture in ways that are not being seen anywhere else.

And so that, anytime you can give, anytime you can open the door to giving, you're supporting everything that's happening in the TCD streaming network.

And, uh, man, I'm super excited. That one is all Twitch gamer focus, says Leighton.

Yeah, absolutely. It's all Twitch gamer focused. And we're going to be transitioning a little bit. But by and large, it's going to be the same great Leighton, same great flavor, um, same great taste, just diet or I don't know, whatever Diet Coke used to say.

Um, yeah, it's funny.

Things like that.

Yeah. The, uh, back to you. No, thank you. Yeah, for us, we really want to, um, man, look, I, I'm all about platforming other people. God, for whatever reason, gave me a platform. I to this day, I still don't know if I deserve it. One day, I'll stand before him and ask, "Why me?" I just happened to be at the right place in the right time when COVID hit and, um, you know, things went crazy. Um, and I'm grateful for that, but at the same time, I'm realizing that it's not about me. And I'm a big flip the script guy where for me it's not about elevating my own influence, but it's more of God gave me this influence. How can I help others build their influence? Uh, and it's that's much more of that decentralized micro mindset that we're going where we're working with the Simons, where we're working with the Utopes, where we're working with some of the others to see these ideas multiply, you know, even the Steves, the Leightens in the gaming space to see their ideas multiply. And I would love to be the guy that has these, that has shows. I would love for the church digital to have shows in India, to have shows from South Africa, from Europe and in different languages where it's not just an English-centric white man talking and I think for us Demarcus is a step in that direction going digital urban, but even beyond that, how do we get more of a global context through the stuff that we're creating in the church digital? How digital works in India culturally, it's much different than it is in America.

And guys, I'm not smart enough to figure out how it works in India and everywhere else. And so, um, yeah, just know that we are trying our best to decentralize and platform people to speak into all the contexts that there are. That's really even the heart behind the regional networks that we've created, our outposts, where we're trying to get peer-to-peer relationships together.

All right, we got, um, Demar, it was funny, Demarcus is in here right now. I see that. We were just speaking so glowingly for you, of you, Demarcus. Welcome in. Maybe his ears were burning.

Yeah, yeah, totally. Let's go TCD streaming network. Demarcus, we're actually gonna, Demarcus will be on in a little bit. And then we'll actually have Demarcus's show on as well. We're gonna, I think we're going to show it. Hopefully, we can squeeze it in later today. It's kind of the wild card for me. It's like I got this thing. We just got to make it work. Um, but cool.

Um, hey, you were talking about conferences. You know, we did the gaming conference earlier this year. Uh, very excited about the gaming conference. It was this fall. We actually did four conferences over the span of a month. Never do that again. Way too much work. Um, that person should be shot who suggested that and, um, yeah, that's that guy, that guy, whatever guy, but we did have, way, it was a lot of fun. We'll show some of the gaming conference. We'll show a lot of the conferences. We did a European conference. Um, we did, um, a Christ-centered recovery conference and we did kind of a digital discipleship conference, platforms as places, digital neighborhoods conference, all that, I mean, just call all those four one conference, you know. We do two conferences a year. Cost on per conference is twenty thousand.

When you look at, um, you know, and it's a free conference, but when you look at platform cost, you look at marketing cost, when you look at, uh, at even, and I'm not even talking about the time that I spend developing and curating, I'm not building my cost into that, just executing the conference, it's about twenty thousand. And so when you're looking at, hey, these resources and the things that we're getting from the church digital are our ability to now connect with people from like ninety countries globally through the conference and to get those assets in front of people, uh, to get that knowledge and insight in front of them.

Um, man, like this is this is what we're doing and and this is this is why we need help because the I mean the the this these things cost money and and for people to come alongside and help us take that next step uh is is very crucial for us.

So, I don't know. So, you got anything else, Andy?

No. Um I just I I appreciate anything that anybody's able to give. We just had a couple of donations actually roll in. So, thank you for those. uh everybody else that's donating, we appreciate that. Uh but man, it it the the the idea behind our conferences is not just a it's not it's not a place to just go blow money. It's a place to train and equip and really show people how to lead uh in a digital space. And I think that's the biggest the biggest takeaway from all of this.

Also, we were never going to do four again right in a row. Uh I think Jeff and I uh lost what little hair we had left. And uh I think also it was a huge testament to the fact that our community is so supportive that people kept showing up to all four conferences. So thanks everybody that showed up and thanks Jeff for putting the stream on.

Yeah. Hey man, thanks for hanging out with me. Uh I'm I'm feeling better. I think I can run for a little bit and uh and do that. But I do appreciate the time.

So thank you Andy for that. And and oh Andy, you said something. You know what? He looked like he had something. He stuck his finger up. I think maybe that was goodbye or maybe it was the, you know, the Hawaiian hello that you're not allowed to do on air. Um, no, he wouldn't done that to me more than once. Hey, listen. Um, I um here's what I want to do. It's funny. We're talking about Demarcus. Um, I actually want to show Demarcus' show right here on the air now. We'll have Demarcus on air later. Uh but uh it's it's about twenty minutes and I need to kill some time. So this is what I'm going to do. Uh hopefully this is going to work. Yeah, hopefully this is going to work. Um but let's go ahead and bring on u bring on the show.

So let me set this up. We were talking about the streaming network just then. Uh Demarcus Battle uh uh runs uh he and his wife run Bible with the Battles and he's going to talk about that in this digital pavement uh podcast. This is this is the first this is the first time it's going to be shown publicly. Okay. And so I'm excited about this. I'm a little skeptical that audio is not going to work. So give me one second here to pause uh because my loop back for some reason keeps crapping out on me randomly. Off on and then off on.

Okay, we're going to hope for the best here. Uh so I'm going to press play on this and hopefully this is going to work. But let me introduce uh what we're just talking about uh Demarcus Battle, his first show, his pilot show, Bible with the Battles, launching right here uh on on the Giving Tuesday. Take a look at this.

Welcome to the digital pavement podcast. Episode features pioneers and ministry leaders from black and brown communities who use technology to shape the future of faith. From streaming worship to online outreach, discover stories, insights, and impact from those redefining digital ministry in our cities. Welcome to the Digital Pavement Podcast.

What's going on everyone? This is Demarcus Battle, host of the Digital Pavement Podcast, and we're so excited to be with you for our very first episode. Come on, y'all. Go ahead, put your hands together. Give us some emojis, some hearts, some likes, whatever you're viewing us on. Go ahead and let us know where you're watching from and join in with us as we prepare to share with you how digital ministry and the urban church collide.

Listen, we're so excited about what God is doing in and through this brand new podcast and we're going to give you the backdrop of how it all came together. But before we do that, we do want to let you know that this podcast, this ministry is powered by the Church Digital Streaming Network. We're going to share with you a little bit more of what that means uh a bit later in uh this podcast, but uh again, we're just so excited to be with you for the Digital Pavement Podcast.

And so on today's episode, we are going to be focusing on what is the digital pavement podcast. I think it's important before we get too far deep into uh episodes and seasons that we start off by laying the groundwork and laying the foundation. What is the digital pavement podcast? Well, a couple of months ago, I was sitting down just thinking about, you know, how I was functioning within the digital space, what God was using me to do as a black African American pastor and preacher and content creator, influencer, whatever you want to call it.

And I felt an impression on my heart that it was important that we communicate to the world the stories of black and brown ministry leaders that are functioning and functioning at high capacity within the digital space. That's right. There are digital missionaries and content creators and churches that are functioning all across the globe and perhaps you just don't know about them.

And so as I began to walk more intentionally with the church digital and the leadership uh within that organization, they also agreed that they felt it was important that more black and brown faces, ministry leaders, those that are leading churches would uh begin to rise to the forefront to share their stories, to share their impact within the kingdom of God, specifically as it pertains to digital ministry. And so from that brainstorming, from seeking the Lord on how we can share more of what's happening in the digital space and in the kingdom of God, the digital pavement podcast was born.

And so I'm excited to to talk about this and to share more about that. From a point of reference and definition, I think it's it's important to know that digital speaks to the online community, the online space. That's social media, whether it's Facebook or Instagram, whether it's YouTube or Twitch, uh Twitter, now known as X, uh Threads, all of the social media platforms. Um that that's virtual reality and we know what's happening in the VR space that that also includes streaming and broadcasting of of church services.

And let's not forget about all the activity that's happening through direct messages on apps like WhatsApp and and Telegram and and and those in black and brown ministries, those that are leading from that urban church context are impacting the kingdom of God from the digital space.

And then when we look at the word pavement, I think it's important to understand what that means. It is the paving of of a road or a street or a sidewalk. And that's typically associated with the street. And the street gives us a picture, a visual of the urban context where many of black and brown ministry leaders and churches are found.

And so that's how we came up with the name, the digital pavement podcast. Are y'all trekking with me? Give me some hearts. Give me some likes. Give me some emojis. if you're feeling what I'm saying about that. And so, uh, as we prepare to open up in this very first episode, what is the Digital Pavement Podcast?

Before we went and interviewed anybody else and brought a guest on, I felt like it was pertinent to share my own story. Yeah, that's right. I'm going to share with you how myself and my wife as a team uh began to minister in the digital space and be a part of this amazing trailblazing story of how black and brown ministry leaders and churches are impacting the digital space.

And so let's talk about it. So somewhere around 2020 during the height of the pandemic, my wife and I were really trying to sit back and understand, listen, what are we going to do from a ministry standpoint in this season of our lives? We had been serving in a local church for a number of years and myself, I started off as a deacon and moved on to a minister and from there a youth pastor and an associate pastor.

I then started doing equipping ministry and most recently as a campus pastor. But somewhere around 2020, my wife and I were sitting down and we were saying to ourselves, "Hey, we've served in a number of ways, but we've never been able to do it together." She would always be like over in women's ministry and or prayer or or uh serving in hospitality and and I would be serving in pulpit ministry and teaching and preaching and all that sort of thing.

And as a husband and wife, we wanted to do ministry together. And so we decided, listen, I think this is a great time to start something called Bible with the Battles, a preaching and teaching ministry. But we said, listen, we don't want to just do it the same old way. No, we want to do it different. And at that particular time, there was a shift. There was a move. There was a pioneering movement for ministries and churches and content creators to begin to minister the gospel of Jesus Christ online.

And so we said to ourselves, listen, I think we should get online and have our focus be there for our preaching and teaching ministry. And so around 2020 and 2021, we were commissioned to go out and to begin serving in the online marketplace in the digital community preaching and teaching the gospel of Jesus Christ.

And and our mission was very simple was to help people to hear the word, believe the word, and apply the word of God to their lives. And what better way to be able to communicate that very simple mission to preach the gospel of Jesus Christ than to do it online.

And so we started ministering on Facebook and started ministering on YouTube and we just simply sat at our kitchen table and together as husband and wife as co-founders of Bible with the Battles began to teach on a number of different topics and Bible studies and You can go to biblewiththebattles.com or you can go to our YouTube page and find all of that, you know, material even now. Uh and that's how we began our start and and we didn't see too many couples especially in uh the African American community that were serving in that particular capacity and that method of ministry.

We call it that expression of church. And so that was great for us to do something different, to do something cutting edge, and now we're seeing it more and more. And so that's the start of our trailblazing story of how Bible with the Battles was begun. So hey, listen, we're going to continue on with this podcast, but we're going to take a quick break and we want you to view this quick commercial.

Hey, what's going on family? Demarcus Battle, host of the digital pavement podcast and this episode is powered by the church digital. The church digital resources digital missionaries and pioneers to make disciples in digital spaces. So, if you sense a calling in your life for being a missionary in digital spaces or if you want to take your ministry through the digital age, connect with us at the church.digital and join our discord server or our WhatsApp community.

We look forward to connecting with you real soon. Hey, listen. So, that was the church digital. If you haven't connected with them yet, we encourage you to do so. You can go again to the church.digital and you can join uh their WhatsApp community or you can join their discord server and we have people from all over the world from the continent of Africa and Europe in Asia uh and of course here in North America.

We have so much going on over at the church digital. you do not want to miss out. Uh so please go ahead and check them out.

And so our very next segment that we're going to share with you is called the blueprint. This is a segment where individuals and guests can share their strategies and the unique way that God is using them to serve in the digital space. uh specifically those uh from black and brown communities, those in leadership and that have churches within those communities. We want to get the blueprint.

What is God doing in and through your ministry that others can use as strategy and be inspired and even equipped by? And so with that segment, I want to share my blueprint.

Very simple. Very simple. All right. My blueprint is three principles that our ministry, Bible with the Battles, operate by. All right, check this out.

Number one, victory over views. Victory over views. When we minister the gospel of Jesus Christ, we are not solely doing it for entertainment purposes, but we want to have victory. Those that are watching us, we want them to have victory. Victory over death, right, through the blood of Jesus Christ, but victory in every facet of their lives.

And so our emphasis is found on communicating a message that gains victory over views. You know what it's like in the digital realm, in the digital space, especially in social media. We often function desiring to get views, but that's not what digital ministry and being a digital missionary is about. Just simply gaining views. And of course, through, you know, more information about the algorithm, that doesn't speak and tell us that much as far as your view count, right? That's only a small sliver of the equation. But we want to measure our impactfulness by the victory that people are experiencing in their lives.

So the first part of my blueprint is to share with you victory over views. Number two, souls over subscribers. Oh man, let me say that again, y'all. Souls over subscribers. It's more important that we minister to your soul than gain you as a subscriber. Oh yeah. At the end of the day, we want to minister the gospel in such a profound way, in such an impactful way that it ministers to your soul that we gain another soul into the kingdom of God as opposed to simply gaining another subscriber. And then lastly, and I believe this is the place where many digital missionaries and digital ministries and hybrid functioning churches have to have their focus and that is community over content.

What good is it to produce content if you have no community? Come on y'all. Community over content is so important. As a matter of fact, your content should be pushing people toward community. Let me say that again. Your content should be pushing people to community. And that is where discipleship and that is where true spiritual transformation occur is in the confines of community.

And we know there's a lot of discussion theologically and biblically over what is a formation of community and some might disagree on that. But I wholeheartedly believe that you can have community in the digital space. As a matter of fact, we see it in Facebook groups. We see it in Mighty Networks. We see it in group chats such as WhatsApp or Telegram. We see it all over the place. Communities forming over like interests, right? So you have a I love dogs community, I love cats community, you have cooking communities, you have sports communities, you have all of these different communities and they are forming online. What more should you expect from God's church, the kingdom? Well, we should also be forming community. And so again, these are my three principles that my wife and I, Bible with the Battles, operate by. Number one, victory over views, number two, souls over subscribers, and number three, community over content. If you borrow these principles, I believe that you will be on the right track, specifically for growth and development within your digital space. Whether you're a content creator, whether you are doing digital ministry as a digital missionary, or if you are a church with a hybrid option, an online congregation. I believe that these three principles will guide you as you communicate the gospel of Jesus Christ.

Hey, listen. We're going to take one commercial break. We'll be back. Um, that was an awkward cut. Sorry about that. He's still playing in my ears. That's funny. I need to figure out how to transition that better. Uh, he there is there is an ending towards that. We're going to cut it for time. But very excited. Demarcus is going to be hanging out with me later today. Excited to launch the streaming network, bringing Leighton under, bringing Demarcus, looking to launch some other things very soon in and getting the message into contact global. Marcus Demarcus was wearing a hat. So I felt like I had to put my hat on because I got to be cool.

Um, yeah, like that's going to happen. Hey, here's what I want to do. Um, I've got we're backed up a little bit. I just forgive me. I just needed a break there. Uh, I'm hoping Corey I can't see Corey Alderin. Uh, I'm hoping he's on. Corey, are you on by any chance?

I'm here.

I'm not sure why the video is not working.

Yeah, I can't see you. I can hear you though. Um, you're a very interesting shade of gray, my friend.

Let me see. Uh, I think I got it. Did that do it?

There you go.

Awesome. How you doing, Corey?

I'm doing great. How are you?

Hey, doing well. What's your hat say? I'm curious.

Uh, dad, husband, man of God.

Awesome. I want that. I need to I need to find a hat like that. That's cool.

Hey, Corey Alderin is um founder, CEO. I mean, what what what top guy over at Sermon Shots and so Corey, maybe just even before we get started, take a moment and introduce yourself and a little bit about what Sermon Shots is.

Yeah. Yeah. Well, you've said most of it already. Yes. Uh, co-founder, CEO of Sermon Shots. And Sermon Shots is a tool that takes your sermon as a pastor or church and turns it into all kinds of different pieces of content. Uh, the most popular content is social media content like clips, reels, uh, images, uh, basically helping you fill up your social media by utilizing what you've already created, which is your sermon. So that's me in 30 seconds.

Oh, I'll fill in. Looks like we maybe lost you. Oh, are you there?

Yeah, I have a problem.

Hey, Corey. Um, I have a problem.

I um so I have two sets of AirPods, AirPod Pros. Um, I have like the Gen two and the Gen one and at this moment I have confused which is which. Uh, and so I maybe heard half of what you said. So I I apologize, but I I'm a I'm a bumbling idiot right now because I'm like I've I was listening to you and then I was listening to some disembodied voice from something somewhere else and I'm like who is this talking? And it was it was like the monitor like that I had running in the background. So I was listening to two different devices off of two AirPods, and that's that's not healthy. Like, that that's probably not not a good way to live. Um, but hey, listen, the reason Corey's on here, thank you, Corey. And by the way, Sermon Shots is incredible. Um, we use it a lot in the church digital. We use it. I use it personally with other churches uh that I work with um at eye level. Uh, in between the sermon clips which is incredible in between the AI which does the blogs and the devotionals and um you know it's I was telling Corey the other day it's like your your AI is actually the first AI I actually theologically trust like I've I've not been at that place before and so really excited about what he's what the work that's happening there even the live translation into multiple languages we we use that a lot down here in Miami going into English and Spanish.

Um, but the reason that we're invited Corey on here is Corey's going to be one of our keynote speakers with the 2026 uh digital missionary conference. And so he is the first one we're announcing. Um we're going to we're going to be doing developing an innovator track and uh you know a lot of the work that that Corey has done uh to to create the this resource this product to make it available for people like there's um you know there's a lot of competition in in the space and there there's organizations that are that are well-funded uh that that are doing a a similar job at this point.

But you know I always first off always love the underdog. I always love the um but I love when the underdog is is leading the pack. And that's the thing that that I've really seen with Corey is that he's managed to stay agile with what he's doing and kind of lead out instead of of following and and others are kind of chasing after him.

And so I don't know, Corey, did you want to maybe talk a little bit about that or some, you know, wisdom around that?

Absolutely. I uh I'll I'll take this conversation where wherever you want it to go. Uh first question is am I the underdog or are they the underdog? I'm curious who who.

Well, funding you're the underdog. I I I I would say I don't I don't want to call out on that, but for some reason you're you're leading you.

You jumped on something early, right? You you were you were the first you really in the church space you were the first in the space and and you were very aggressive to carve out new features quickly. You went to language honestly before anybody was even thinking about shorts and and so like you you built your your your product and now well-funded organizations are chasing after you like I mean is is that safe to say?

Yeah, sure. Absolutely. That's uh that's a good way of putting it. I it and I think what that means is like for people that do have ideas, you can go the self-funded route like it it is possible. Uh, bootstrapping, right? The term um it is absolutely possible. We, you know, fortunate, lucky, whatever you want to call it, there some of that involved in there probably, but um we had an idea and we moved forward with it as quickly as we could.

Um and that definitely helped for sure. Uh we we were fortunate too that we had technology that we'd been building that helped us launch it very quickly as well.

Um but yeah, we were.

We launched before even ChatGPT was was a thing which is kind of crazy. Like when we first started, we did not use AI in any of our marketing language at all because AI wasn't even a a term being used broadly except for in some like you know um I don't know very niche spaces. Uh.

And it and.

So yeah we had very early start and you know something interesting too is that because we were so early um you know there there's competition outside of the church space doing video social media content right from your um from long form content. We were actually even probably predated even most of those um and we we just made an early decision that we weren't going to go broad and we were going to be very specific um to two main reasons.

One is uh bootstrapped you know we th those companies that went much broader uh definitely got the bigger opportunity probably uh needed funding for sure. I mean for you to be able to go much broad you had to have funding. Uh but the other reason was we just I I wanted to be very specific for the church and uh there are some key things that we had to do from the start that said okay if we're going to be going to the church like there's specific things in the AI and the UI and UX all of that that had to be predetermined based on the church being our end user and not a broad um a broad space.

So.

Yeah, I know it's funny. We use we used to use I mean I'll out some organizations, but we used to use Riverside internally and and you know, we still use it occasionally for shorts and the AI um the AI functions okay and but you know interface with the product is is is great but it's the the AI doesn't quite get us. It doesn't get me. And so like some of the clips it's like well why would you cut it there? You totally missed the point. Um, and so that's where like using sermon shots, the AI, you know, even though I'm I'm not a preacher.

I'm a streamer, but the AI, I'm just telling you, like from a theological standpoint, the AI gets me. And so when we run that, we do the clips, we create it up there, like even from a streaming aspect using Sermon Shots to create the shorts and to create the assets after the fact. Um, you know, I know we've used it, Barbara through Word Revolution used it with us for a long time and I've even used it at a personal level with some of the stuff that I've done here recently.

And so it's really cool. Um, you know, I'm excited to have you be part of what we're doing with the digital missionary conferences. Um, and to really, Corey, to bring some of your ideas and innovation and bootstrap and what that looks like, you know, at the global level. We've got with the digital missionary conferences in the past, we'd have, you know, 1500 people register from 85, 90 countries. Uh, there are people coming into these conferences that it's like, "Dude, I've never even heard of your country before." But they're hungry. They're looking for insights. You know, it was funny. I had a gentleman tell me recently like he wanted to develop a technology center that looked like, you know, I think the quote was like the Apple campus, whatever. And like that's a great vision, but you got to start small. I mean, unless you know somebody who can write a big fat check, you got to start small and grow and develop that. And you know, how you take that idea and grow that over time. Um, you know, you've been on that path lately and that's one of the things that with this next conference May 12th and 13th that we want to focus on with the Church Digital is how to take these ideas, these innovations, and survive the alpha phase, how not to give up during the beta phase and kind of push through. I mean, I just would love if I could ask real quick.

Um, what give a piece of advice? Somebody who's got an idea, somebody who's doing some—I mean, we are the island of misfit toys. We are the square pegs that don't fit in round holes. I mean, you're talking to that group. Um, they're encouraged by what they're doing. They're discouraged because they're underresourced and under-supported. Um, what advice would you give to somebody like that?

Well, uh, I think that any idea—let me think—um, from the faith side first and then I would say any idea that comes from God is a good idea that's worth moving forward. And so I don't know. I've had plenty of things that I've been given pretty clear direction that I've heard that what my next step is. I just go out on faith that that's my next step. Um, and some of those have—I'll put in quotes—failed. Uh, and that to me is just part of it. Almost every one of my good ideas, everyone or every one of my successful things that you see that has come from me has come out of at least one if not multiple failures along the way. And it's how can you get here if you know there's one, two, three, four, five failures? Just looking at my past, every success has had multiple failures, but it's gotten close. If I know that, then what do I want to do knowing that? I want to fail on those four things as quickly as possible.

So the worst thing I can do if I know there's going to be multiple failures is to linger at those. And so what I try to do is I just try to move past failures as quickly as possible. Have a clear metric that helps me determine that. Have some gut feel based on talking to people. Uh, collect as much data as you can along the way to figure out how do I move past this. Um, so move fast until you find the thing, then scale fast, I guess is what I would say.

Yeah, it's um seeing a failure not as a failure has been hard for me, but that's been, you know, within the Church Digital, within the past eight, nine years, we've had nine different versions of this thing. And it's like, no, that's not going to work. I like this, but I don't like this. This is the wrong audience. This is the wrong voice. It's the wrong focus. Like, and it's been—I agree. We've been fail quickly, you know, acknowledge that it's a failure and move on. I—that's hard. That was a hard lesson for me. Historically, I'm like, I'm going to kill myself. And if coming from somebody who's literally in the hospital for chest pains and heart attack—not heart attack, but bypass surgery soon—I'm going to kill myself to prove that this is going to work. And um, and releasing that and actually seeing, okay, how is God moving in this situation, not forcing something to happen, but instead see where he's moving in and amongst it and kind of following his lead. That for me has been really important in recent years. Like, you know, I've come even to the point at a personal level with now this surgery I have coming up in a month with a bypass is um, I can't control it. Um, I got to let God control it and I just got to step back and watch what he is doing and follow him in that. And there's—that's hard for a control freak like me. Are you a control freak, Corey?

Um, no, I don't think so. I don't think so. I'm not. But what I would say is at least for me personally, understanding a failure is not really a failure. Took some time, but like I've been okay with it now. Like even some people will say like it's weird that I can just say that I failed. And it's like it's not even a big deal anymore because it's just like if you know 80% of—like I'm making these numbers up—but like 80% of what you do is not going to work out, like it just makes sense that any one given thing you do is not going to work, right? Because it's more likely than not. It's just—

And it's the iteration from that. It's don't quit. It's keep pushing, learn the lessons from it and move on.

So awesome. Hey, Corey, man, thanks for jumping on the live stream. I know we went a little late timewise. I kind of was like, I'm done talking, and so we had to play that video. But um, I appreciate you coming on.

I will touch base with you soon. It's funny like I was so funny. I was like, Corey, I want you to speak at this thing. And he's like, "What time?" And I'm like, "I don't know. I haven't done any work on it, but I want you to speak because I want to do this innovation track in this theme and very much want to bring him and some other Christian innovators in to speak on their process and their lessons of what they've learned from that." Uh, and so Corey, man, I'm so happy for the success of Sermon Shots and the path that you're on and looking forward to the road ahead, my friend.

Yeah, absolutely. I love to be involved in everything that you're doing here. So thank you.

Awesome. Thanks, Corey. Hey, really excited about the digital missionary conferences. Corey, once again, thanks for jumping on here. Uh, with that, you know, I mean, listen, uh, one digital missionary conference costs $20,000. Um, we'll have—that'll be a two-day conference, so we'll probably have I don't know, eight or nine keynotes over the course of that. Breakouts and others will happen as well. And so really excited about that happening May 12th and 13th. You can write it down. Uh, and we will get conferences, uh, you know, sponsors to cover the cost of that and we'll get funding off that as well. But to be honest, speakers like Corey and making that event happen digitally. Um, yeah. I mean, there's a cost to producing an event like that. And the more that we can fund that at a donation level, then the more that the sponsor money—the further the sponsor money can go.

Don't forget right now, I mean, we're seeing donations coming, which is great, but we've got a $5,000 matching grant right now. So any money that comes in uh today, uh we've got somebody that's matching it up to $5,000. So you give a buck, we get two. That's a good deal. Uh, and so swing over to the church.digital/give. The church.digital/g. It's interesting. Uh, just another kind of sidebar, we started doing this with the last dig—with the European digital missionary conference. Um, the uh live AI to translate the digital missionary conference into 10 languages. Like when we did the digital missionary conference, the European one, the primary language spoken was English and live AI literally translated it. Simon would have to tell you, but it was like Spanish, French, Portuguese, uh, Korean, Italian, um, Hindi, like there were 10 different languages and it was in real time. It was either text typed out or it was audibly spoken. Uh, it was a beautiful expression. Uh, as we started to get this material into the heart language of all of these people globally.

And so really our heart once again behind this is not platforming ourselves but starting to get people to grasp an idea, to own it, to challenge people to take the gospel where the buildings are not going to do something different to reach someone different. And that's the heart behind what we're doing here. Hey, I'm really excited about this next person. And so we had some tech issues, I think, getting them on. Uh, and so but let me go ahead and uh I'm going to kick Corey out. Bye, Corey. But let me invite in uh Karan into the conversation. So let me push this. Hey, Karan. Is this working?

Hi, Jeff.

Awesome. Hey, man. Great to see you. Thanks for jumping on. I apologize we're a little late schedule-wise, but I'm so glad you managed to join us from India today, my friend.

Yeah, same here. I'm happy. So uh good morning and uh I mean it's such a privilege for me, uh it's an honor, uh you know to be part of uh this podcast on this special day, you know, Giving Tuesday.

Awesome. Very happy to be here.

Love it. Karan, open us up here a little bit, man. Uh, man, you're looking nice in the jacket. You got the mic, the headphones. Like you are styling, my friend, right now. Very good. Uh, tell man, just tell us a little bit about you and your ministry in India.

Yeah, of course, Jeff. Uh, thank you so much. So um, I'm Pastor Karan Johan. Uh, and my heart beats for uh the unreached millions uh here in North India. You know, the Hindi speaking belt, that's where uh we minister. Um, we are into church planting, we are training people here, and uh just before we go forward, I just want to uh highlight, you know, the current situation in North India that uh a lot of us won't know. Um, you know, we only hear about persecution, but I want to tell you that persecution is real. Uh, I mean, the struggle is real uh in North India uh in certain states. In most of the states, no conversion law has been implemented and it's very difficult uh you know for the church to flourish. It's very difficult to talk about gospel. It's very difficult to evangelize. Um, I mean, uh if you talk about uh the surge in uh persecution, you know, in the last 10 years, uh it has uh grown up to like more than eight times. Um, if you look at statistics, the recorded um incidents in 2014 were around 127. Um, and in 2024, uh there were 834 incidents reported uh in North India. So the persecution is—there's a dramatic surge and it's very difficult. Uh, you know, I want to um, I want you to introduce uh Pastor uh Mahesh. Uh, Pastor Mahesh was forced out of his village in North India, you know, by a mob.

And um I mean he locked he you know they locked his church doors. So he was not allowed to worship uh in the church.

So instead of giving up what this man of God did uh he turned to his phone and today he is leading three um three distinct house churches uh via encrypted video calls.

So he what he says he says they can lock the building but they cannot block the signal.

Wow. So it's it's powerful you know and um so that's that gives us a a good uh reason to go digital you know why digital because digital church gives you safety you know and uh it increases your reach you can uh reach uh several people like several states several villages at at one time and it also uh keeps you anonymous like you know seekers can explore faith without fear of u immediate social uh o uh ostracization or um immediate violence uh attacks.

So they can uh they can be a part of uh like a digital platform, a digital uh fellowship without uh being caught. So, I mean, it's the need of the hour, you know, to go digital.

And um what a what a powerful story, my friend. Like that the um the the persecution you're you're facing and then the the success of of going digital with it.

Um are what does so your your friend that was doing the pastor you mentioned that was doing three house churches. Can you tell me what is what does that technology what what is a what does a digital house church in India even look like?

Like what what what's the interaction? What's the engagement? What platforms? Like just you said in encrypted calls like is is it like a zoom call that they're gathering together?

What what does that look like like on on WhatsApp? Um you know people use uh I mean the technology uh I mean the phones have gone like uh pretty cheap uh here in India because we get stuff from China and you know like even uh India made phones so most of the people they use uh they use phones uh and it's easy to get there so they create small groups um on WhatsApp or on signal because they are they safe and um that's how uh they they were able to uh pass on the message the gospel messages the Bible stories uh to the groups and that's how they were able to conduct those three fellowships at home. So a home a house fellowship um is like five to eight people uh you know in a small village they can gather together and um uh I mean they can worship they can uh they can listen to the word of god or small stories. So yeah that's how a small house fellowship will look like.

That's that's awesome. What uh so and just tell me a little bit like tell me talk to me about your desire um to to help people uh evangelize and kind of I don't want to say escape the persecution but be able to to work in the midst of the persecution due to digital.

Yeah. I I mean since you know I mean I was very excited about this opportunity you know I I thank you Jeff. Thank I thank you much about this opportunity. Uh I mean I was I was doing some research about this Giving Tuesday. Uh in 2024 uh this giving Tuesday raised u almost around 3.6 6 billion uh in the US alone and um with over uh 36 million participants joining the movement and out of this 45% of donations were made on mobile phones. So generosity is literally uh in the palm of our hands and um I mean it's making global impact uh instant and accessible.

Um now you know when we talk about uh digital church here in the US um I mean we often think about streaming quality and um you know a like um maybe a great online uh small group group platform and uh you know we we enhance we do enhancements we make it better.

Um however you know if in India um the land of uh billion people um it it's different uh you know here the vast majority speaks Hindi the digital church is not an enhancement uh it is the primary sometimes the only access point to the gospel you know the story is very different When we talk about India in some places you know we cannot go we cannot carry gospel we cannot meet people and talk about uh about cross because uh there are implications if um you know if that person is radical they can accuse you of lure luring them or you know anything and you will be you will be straight away you'll be uh you'll be behind the behind the bars no question asked. you know so it's very difficult and you cannot you cannot go to those areas you cannot go to those villages but uh I mean using digital mediums you can uh easily um you know penetrate the remote areas as well and the Hindi belt is uh home to over 600 million people um that is like more than the entire population of the US so yeah you know That's there's a great potential and a great need and I think um this digital um medium you know uh it's much needed uh but there's a tech gap the spirit is willing but the tech is weak you know uh I mean um if I talk about India you know our digital pastors they needs they needs training they needs to be educated you know they are operating on insecure apps because uh I mean they don't know a lot you know these apps can easily be monitored uh they have limited data plans you know they are they they don't have much to spend on technology they don't have much to spend on data plans and then uh a lack of culturally contextualized content so they need to be equipped to have that content uh you know to penetrate the unreached areas. Um, we need to build a fortress, not just a chat group, you know, and uh digital is a church uh without walls.

Um, and when I think about digital church, I mean, you know, it's it's one church, you know, one global w global body, a you know, one Catholic church. there's no boundaries um no discrimination like you know uh it's one church so I think building a digital sanctuary uh that no mob can destroy you know a a network of lifespanning the entire Hindi belt so I just want to encourage everyone to come forward and um be the signal you can support I think one pastor Maybe around $50 would be good enough. And I think we can do we can do that.

Yeah. I I I tell you what, uh I'm I'm really excited uh with uh Karan to start to get him. Um you we we're doing the EDM training with you after the new year, I think. And and u Leon, you know, I've connected him with Leon who we'll meet here in a little bit.

But Leighton I think who's watching right now, Karan is is is the individual and we're one really excited about working with Karan to get into the um to the to the Hindi region uh up in the northern India.

Um you know once again this is the reason we we work with natives in the space. I I don't know anything about uh you know I I I want to learn uh but you know as leader of an organization we want to find people that are that are aligned and as you heard Karan's um you know vision for empowering people and and avoiding the persecution that's there. Why would we not get into that and why h why should we you know it's it's our it's our God calling to help Quran uh get into situations like this and multiply into it.

So, we're excited to see what what God's going to do um uh through Quran. We're excited to see what God's going to do in the in the northern region with the Hindi.

Uh I think we had a we had some tech issues with the Bengali region. They weren't able to connect today, but excited about about Joy Jit as well over in the the Bengali side.

Joy Jit, if you're watching, man, I'd love if you can just jump on like even now, that'd be great. But um so much goodness, so much opportunity uh coming out of out of India and so much need.

When we were in when we were in Lison uh South Korea for the conference, the number one country I talked to, it must have been a couple hundred people was was India and and and like that was the number one country.

Number two was subsaharan Africa but no which is not a country I know but African uh but India far dominated that even uh and it was all Christians worried about persecution trying to figure out how to go digital with that and so Karan you're meeting a a big need my friend hey just at at a personal level because I know you're you're fundraising for yourself like if somebody was more is interested in what you're doing how how can people find more information or or support you directly.

Oh, thank you Jeff. Um, yeah, I mean we do have a website. Uh, you can uh look for ministercaran.com. That's very easy to find or you can look for lighthouse foundation.in that's our website.

You can uh you can uh you can view what we are doing in North India. You can see uh stuff that you know about our ministry, how we are uh operating in North India.

We doing church planting. We are training people. We are training leaders who will uh make disciples and who will plant churches. So yes, you can join hands.

Uh you can you can visit us, you can uh you can train our leaders, you can train our ministers here to be more efficient.

Uh you can join hands. We are uh we would love to collaborate and u work for the kingdom. I know uh choices are tough you know Jeff uh I mean before I was getting ready uh for this podcast my wife was giving me suggestion that I should dye my beard uh and doesn't look good and uh and uh I I I I told her that I should look I should look mature you know it's giving Tuesday.

Yeah. And uh you know we while we were having this conversation uh my my elder son Josh he was passing by singing that song.

It's not by might it's not by power but by the spirit says the lord. And I was like oh my goodness God is talking through this boy.

That's funny.

So I don't have to I don't have to strategize a lot. Uh I mean God will do it. And I mean God is on our side.

It's God's work and uh definitely God is moving a lot of people right now as we are talking. Uh for many of us biggest stress this Tuesday is choosing between a pumpkin spice latte or a cold brew you know I mean that's just a $5 treat for us but in North India that same $5 keeps a digital pastor online for entire week.

Yeah. So today, let's make a choice that echoes beyond our morning coffee.

Well said, my friend. Well said. Well, Leighton says that you are dignified with the with the beard. Um, a little little what is it?

A little salt and the pepper. Is that is that how they say that? Um, you know, I've I've got so much salt on mine.

You know, it's funny actually. It was my my high school one of my high school buddies um put on Instagram. I put a post about me in the hospital and uh and one of my like one of my high school best friends who I hadn't seen in 25 years replied back and he's like, "When did you become Shan Connory?" And I was like, "Man, that's that's I don't know if you know who Sean Connory is, but on the on the English side of the pond, man, that's like a huge compliment.

I'm excited." But hey, wow.

Uh man, you are you're you're a pioneer in a in a space. You are uh getting out there. you are um championing others. I mean, honestly, right now, Karan, I I it wasn't planned, but honestly, I just feel like I have to pray for you, man, and and the the ministry that that you're doing over there.

Is it okay? Can I can I take some time and just pray for you right now on air?

Yes, please. Yes, please. Yes, please. Jeff,

God, I I I just I I pray for Karan right now and his his ministry in in India. And I know there's uh there's persecution, there's tough times, there's um you know doors of churches being shut down and and people thrown in jail uh because of the uh because of their their the cause of Christ. And so God um I I I pray that there's an opportunity here to make uh digital um digital connections.

I pray that there's an opportunity to empower uh the gospel to continue to move uh in in digital space. I pray for digital evangelism, digital disciplehip.

I pray ultimately that people will come to know you via whatever means possible whether it's digital or physical. But I pray that people are open to the idea of doing something different to reach someone different even in the northern in the Hindi region.

God, thank you for Karan and his obedience to serve you in the area and we pray for safety with his family. We pray for support for him even at a personal level moving forward. God, we love you. Thank you for loving us and using us the way you do. In your name we pray. Amen.

Hey Karan, one more time, give us those links. If we wanted more information on you, how do we get that?

Yeah, you can look for lighthouse foundation.in or you can also check ministerkaran.com. It's very easy to find or if you need keywords you can look for lighthouse foundation India or lighthouse foundation Chandigarh you will find us.

All right, lighthouse foundation India. Very good. So .in is that the India country code? I did not realize that at the moment, so very good. Hey Karan, sir, thank you very much for the stream. Let me see the hat.

Yeah, this I just wanted to show that because I was watching your podcast you asked everyone to show like what's written? It says Jesus is that's my final answer.

Oh, that's good. Very good, my friend. Hey, Karan, looking forward to working with you in the future and thank you for the work that you're doing in India. You have a good one.

Thank you so much, Jeff. You have a great one.

Awesome. Hey, so we're excited about what Karan is doing globally and we, the church digital, we're excited to come alongside Karan and others in India to help spur this on. You know, and for us really that's the heart behind what we're trying to do here with getting our material sharing Jesus online, getting it translated, our book into India, and I'm sorry into Hindi and into Bengali to empower some of the leaders in that space, convert some of our course material equipping digital missionaries into Hindi and Bengali as well.

India, I don't know if you realize, every time I ask this question, hey, how many dialects are there in India? I get a different answer. The number always is higher than the one before. I've been told somewhere between 1,300 and 1,900 different dialects, different languages in India. It's a very microdispersed, decentralized country with unique personalities all around and even persecution. Christianity is widely accepted and Christianity is not depending upon the region that it's in.

And so for us to really start to empower individuals with the gospel in that space and training on how to utilize digital technology to be able to be more effective in the persecution areas, that's the heart of what we're doing. That's why I'm talking for way too many hours in a row is because I want us to understand the power of what's happening digitally now.

If we can get funding for a translation, I'm just going to talk brass tacks here, y'all. Like, you know, if you watch me on the stream, you know I am unfiltered. I'm unfiltered in general rule. But when I got a camera and a microphone in front of me, God knows what I'm going to say. And that's probably pretty much it because I just say whatever comes to my mind and hopefully he put it there.

I'm going to be real with funding. We can get the Sharing Jesus Online book into Hindi and Bengali like in a couple weeks, in a month, in a couple months. Like it will be a priority because there's funding that's attached to it. If we can't get funding for it, it'll probably happen at some point. But the problem is we've got so many volunteers that are working on so many other projects. It will get lost and it will slow down greatly and we won't be. I'm just brass tacks facts. We will not be able to fund and to prioritize this project.

And so like Jason Morris said, and we'll do it eventually, maybe late '26, early '27. And if you know me, I just have a high level of urgency where it's like, hey, we've got this opportunity. Let's get it done. I mean, if we need to grassroots it and if we need to slow road it, we can slow road it. That's fine. It's just inside me. I feel I have this God-given urgency that says, you know, you need more crumbs. You know, four thousand is a lot of money. Four thousand is not a lot of money. A hundred bucks a month is a big step towards us doing it. Twenty-five bucks a month is a big step towards us doing it. Whatever the amount is, we need your help.

The church digital needs your help. Own the ministry of what's happening here. Help us get trainings to Karan. Help us get trainings to Joy Jit who's going to be in the Bengali region. Help us. Who Joy Jit, by the way, is jumping up and down screaming, "Give me stuff. Give me stuff. Give me stuff." Oh my gosh, the energy of this guy is crazy. I kind of regret he didn't jump on this call because he is so excited to do this. He is like itching to get into it.

And, oh man, there's so, you know what's funny? I'm going to throw this up right here. Lighthouse, Karan just said this right now. This is good. Let me make this go away. Come on, Global Church. You know, that's the challenge, right? I'm having a conversation right now streaming online with dozens of people. More will watch it online afterwards. But the reality is that what we're talking about doing is the global church. We are wanting to build the global church. We are wanting to resource the global church. We're wanting to multiply the global church. And at some level, I mean, that's incredible. That's a God-given challenge from us for us. God told me to help and I'm helping the best that I can.

I think some of the challenges is a lot of our US friends don't necessarily have the vision for the global church and they don't necessarily see the importance or the reason or the necessity for doing it globally. I would challenge you to listen to the stories from Simon earlier today, from the stories of Karan. We're going to have Tariq on here in a minute, I believe. Excited about Tariq and what God is doing through him in Pakistan and others as we're seeing the gospel move globally, digitally through the efforts of what's happening here.

You know, Karan is talking about five dollars will empower a digital missionary a week in India. He's not wrong. We're trying to resource the people in the field, train them and equip them to do it. And to be honest, I would love to get to the place organizationally where we can fund missionaries in the field and get to that point.

Y'all, we can't even afford to keep our own lights on. I mean, we're constantly cutting, cutting, cutting, cutting, cutting. You know, even in the tech stack areas, you know, trying to get whatever deal we can from whoever. Finances are incredibly tight. I do want to work very. I'm going to work hard in the next couple months. I want to publish what our finances actually look like, bare bones. And Andy just says right now, but Andy's like we're even down to the quick. Yeah. The candle's still lighting. The candle's still lit. The fire is still there.

Here's what we need. We need gasoline on the flame. And you're the gasoline. You may not realize it. You may not know it. You may be hanging out with us with TCD all the time. You may be new, just kind of stumbled on. You may be friends with me or somebody else may have invited you on to this thing. You are the gasoline that will turn the spark into a fire. You're the explosion. This is suddenly getting violent. Let's not use the explosion word.

Look, we need, we need some, we need some gas. We need to turn the corner organizationally and we need your help to do that. The church.digital. It's all over the screen right now. The church.digital. Go ahead and click on that and give. We would love a monthly donation. We would love a one-time donation. Plenty of information right there. Apple Pay, Android Pay, whatever pay is. Plenty of opportunities right now to help sponsor a digital missionary.

Tall Skinny Kiwi checking in from, I almost said Australia. Sorry. Never tell a New Zealander they're from Australia. If there's one thing I know about Oceania is you never tell a New Zealander he's from Australia. I love Kiwi. Kiwi is fun. I mean I hang out with Kiwi in Facebook and or in Discord and WhatsApp. That's good. Kiwi in Facebook is hilarious. Like he gets a little more filtered in Facebook. He's actually one of the few follows I still keep up with on a regular basis over there. Good stuff.

My dog's over here asleep on the bed and what time is it? It's almost like one o'clock and he's still sleeping.

All right. This is what we're going to do. Little late, little different on the time schedule here. Conrad Cooper, I'm really excited about this. I want to talk about our care and our recovery program, the church.digital. Like we're putting a big emphasis. This is going to be a big deal in '26 as we're looking at Christ-centered recovery in digital space.

Listen, like the, we're literally the church digital digital missionaries for doing ministry in addictive spaces. Like there's no way to sugarcoat this. Like there are people that are addicted to the platforms that we're on. They're addicted to these devices, the phones. They're addicted to virtual reality. They're addicted, you know, even the doom scroll. Like this is an addictive space.

So we as digital missionaries have the opportunity to be addicted. We as digital missionaries are doing ministry with people who may or may not be addicted. And we're also trying to recruit and train volunteers to be working in the platforms where we're addictive. What is the armor of God look like for a digital missionary? What is the breastplate of righteousness? What is the belt? What is the belt of righteousness? The breastplate of, oh my gosh, I just blanked on that. That is bad. I usually have that memorized very quickly.

The point being is that how can we protect ourselves so that we can help others and that's a lot of what we're going to get into in context of our Christ-centered recovery. We started a program recently with an organization called Project Exodus. Now, here in America, there's several Project Exoduses. Some of them are not good. And so if you're thinking, "What is Jeff Dunn?" He's a theological, like Project Exodus is a hate group. Not what I'm talking about. Not that Project Exodus. But we've recently started a relationship with an organization called Project Exodus who does help organizations develop a culture of Christ-centered recovery in physical and digital space.

They work with a lot of physical churches globally. They do a lot of recovery groups digitally as well. And as we really got into the culture of what recovery can look like and what it would be for a digital missionary to really thrive in ministry, oh my gosh, like Project Exodus became so good. We're going to have Stacy Knapp, who's our director of care, on here in a little bit. But as part of the digital missionary conference that we just did a while ago, we went, those in the fall. One of those was Christ-Centered Recovery.

Project Exodus is one of the sponsors of that. We were happy to have him on board and and and really just was very excited about uh Conrad Cooper.

He's the CEO of Project Exodus. Did a keynote excellent talking about like the role of of recovery and some of the stigmas that are centered around uh addiction in context of the church.

This is a a phenomenal message, but really the heart of this is this is the typical stuff that we do in our conferences. This is the these are the groups that we're going to offer in 2026 to uh digital missionaries globally that to to help them um work through issues, work through addiction so that they can be effective in ministries and digital virtual space. This is the future of of um of the church digital and I wanted you all to see to get a sneak peek of that.

So, I'm going to press a couple buttons and then um we'll have Conrad Cooper. Uh, actually I think I introduced Conrad Cooper in the video and then Conrad will come on and share his part.

So, here we go. I'm looking to make sure I see where my buttons are. Okay, everybody. Uh, I'll be back here in a little bit, but here's Conrad Cooper.

And just for Leighton, I I boosted it to 1.25, so you're good.

We do have uh Conrad Cooper, the the uh is set. Uh excited to get started and and get going into it. Project Exodus is uh is like as I said is one of our our new partners that is that is helping us really tackle our our recovery our recover uh ministry that we're starting up as part of care where we want to provide care opportunities for for digital missionaries literally globally and so excited about the work that they're doing on here and so uh we're going do a uh a video um uh in a second to show it, but I just I want to highlight here.

My gosh, I don't have you know what I what happened. Um Andy uh I'm just going to call myself out here when uh when we did all the um all the shifting I some of my prompts are are gone and so I'll create something in a second a link for it.

Those of you watching on Twitch are like what's wrong with Jeff? My some of my links aren't working correct here in Hubalo. But but let me do this.

I'm so excited about the Project Exodus uh partnership and not only for what it means for the church digital, but what I think uh it can mean for individuals like you and even ministries and organizations like yours.

And so uh I'm I'm happy to play for you this video introducing Project Exodus, but and then after the fact uh welcome Conrad Cooper from uh Project Exodus to the stage.

So, okay, let's take a look at that video. Addiction and mental health challenges don't stop at destroying individual lives. Their effect spreads to families and whole communities.

And yet, most people suffer in silence. Nearly 2/3 of youth and young adults report watching pornography on a weekly basis. Over the past decade, global drug usage has surged by 23% and yet 90% of those who need help never receive it.

Despite this grim reality, change is possible. Recovery is possible, but it requires support. No one should do it alone. The solution can be found in the church.

With its reach, infrastructure, and heart, the church is uniquely positioned to make profound and lasting difference. As the body of Christ, we're called to take action.

We've been commissioned to bring hope to the hopeless, healing to the broken, and freedom to the captives. But many churches and organizations can feel overwhelmed and illequipped, unsure where to start or how to sustain recovery efforts until now.

Built on the foundation of God's word, Project Exodus is a nonprofit recovery ministry empowering your church with effective and innovative recovery strategies. Our recovery tools are biblically based and life-giving, bringing real and lasting change.

Through our web platform, Bridge and our online academy, you'll gain access to all the resources, training, and support needed to lead life-saving recovery groups and programs.

Whether addressing addiction and supporter recovery, mental health recovery, or pornography recovery, our solutions are accessible, scalable, and sustainable. Designed to meet people where they are and guide them forward.

If you have the heart to help, our step-by-step process will empower you. Previous experience is not required. Simply sign up, get certified, and launch your group.

This isn't just theory. Decades of experience inform our evidence-based strategies, empowering churches to build cultures of recovery that transform homes, neighborhoods, and entire communities.

You see, the need is urgent, and the solution starts with you. With the right tools and support, you can take action and make a difference.

Together, we can grow a culture of recovery, one person, one church, and one community at a time.

Hi guys. Uh, good day or from South Africa. A good evening to you. Um, from our perspective here, it's now sitting at 18:30 p.m. I'm speaking from a small town down in the south coast called George and our team is also based in Durban and um, around the country as well as in some places internationally.

But first, I want to give you greetings from South Africa. Um, no, it's not as bad as it's made out to be in the States and absolutely amazing and and beautiful countryside and we are determined to embrace change uh, and to do the things that need to be done uh, to seize the kingdom. So yeah, just a shout out to to to Jeff and church digital. Amazing to work with you guys. Uh we spent some good time together, not nearly enough.

Um at times we wish to be in person just so one can give you a good hug and a pat on the back for the work and the initiatives that you are grabbing on to.

So well done. Thank you for the honor and privilege of being here. So yeah, I'm excited to move along. So excuse me. Uh by God's grace, um I've been in the country 25 and a half years going on 26 years and um yeah, it's it's uh it's been a journey.

Indeed has been a journey. It started off on the 2nd of January 2000 after many years caught up in addiction and we've all got our war stories and uh there's no need to reiterate what those are and uh I think for each of us um it's it's own our own cross and our own process and each one that carries the pain um carries it without comparison to another. But yeah, my journey ended up in Hillbrow getting shot and eventually sitting in a in a crack house in a rather dangerous part of Johannesburg on the 2nd of January 2000.

Uh and I woke up desperate uh just like I couldn't anymore. I'd been trying for for for years to get this thing right in and out of rehab um and really just couldn't manage to get myself out.

And um yeah, I I cried out to God and ended up in an amazing church, Rama Church. That Sunday morning, 2nd of January 2000, I gave my uh life to the Lord and ended up going straight back to yeah, the dodgiest part of Johannesburg that you can ever think of.

Um however, for the next 18 days, he just slammed door shut and blocked my way. And I found myself checking into a really hardcore Christian rehabilitation center.

I thought well that that we get too easily we esteem too lightly. Um so I picked the hard way to get things done and um God did what he does best.

He just moved and shifted my life around. Um and um yeah the journey of restoration and the journey of healing um started that day um that I I left there and as I left the treatment center um there I will never forget that there was a picture of a m of of the sun coming up from from behind the mountain not actually a picture of the real thing. And God spoke to me clearly and he said I'm needing to open a rehabilitation center.

And I I debated with him like like who is this speaking to me? I had no experience of that at that point in time and uh yeah I've been in the motor industry and done a while at time but had no experience in recovery at yet at that stage.

Um so yeah I ended up a short while later um yeah being obedient and opening up a treatment center that went on to become a flagship treatment center in South Africa and internationally which I ran for some uh with with some amazing people and family for 18 years.

And uh we we yeah we we really changed the way we wanted to do recovery and the way that we believe recovery should be done.

Um you know he shouted out like you know who can I send you know um and when we put our hands up to say here I am it's quite hard to pull them back down but more importantly he also goes on to say behold I'm doing a new thing can you not feel it can you not see it can you not perceive it um and I see that's what's happening here to today um on control alt delete um to see this church digital recovery initiative really taking um taking taking ground and and and really seizing the territory.

So yeah South Coast went on to become an amazing an amazing facility that really taught us how to do things in a in a different manner.

Um it it really brought home um go back to it. It really brought home a situation that a verse that I really wanted just um draw attention to that um 2 Corinthians 12:7 when it says that that in our weakness and his strength is perfected.

It really goes on further to say that the power and authority of the grace of the creator of the universe rests upon us and in our weakness his strength is perfected.

And I just felt um really strongly today that um we we are very definitely those that are called to more and called into that space of really getting the work done.

Not just being mere spectators, but really understanding that there's a whole lot of work that needs to be done um and best that we do it ourselves um with immediacy.

Cool. Um can just jump me back on to the slides there. Yeah. So today we we going to be speaking about dismantling unhelpful narratives trying to challenge the outdated strategies as he laid on my heart some 20 years ago 25 years ago that we needing to do a new thing and create a new way that the success rates that were being demonstrated in treatment centers um internationally not only in South Africa but um you know from systems that have been developed many many years ago that really we needed to push into the word integrate something fresh and new um and absolutely you know deliberate to to what he's doing. So um with with that process we also looking to see how the church can change um and understand that actually um addiction is out there not in here.

So when we say that is not in here um sorry just one second if I may please um great sorry my feed just jumped there a second um with understand addiction is not out there it's right in here it's with us it's online with us um being online in itself um is a really present um process that we all experience to the point of asking ourselves that you know should we um take our devices or our connectivity away what kind of withdrawal symptoms would we experience have you in need of digital detox so really asking those hardcore questions is that in fact one in every four people are battling depression and I think those are those are conservatives sorry one in every six people I think those are conservative numbers I don't feel that that is accurate we know certainly in South Africa that the collective trauma is way greater than that um and that addiction is related into all of these kind of processes so yeah I I do feel that when we look at it and we're starting to understand that it goes further than substance abuse and further than alcohol that in fact 79% of men and 76% of women watch pornography regularly obviously that's a particular sector quoting Barner um as a lot of us are familiar with is that really um the situation that we with um is the situation that we're facing is um really challenging with that amount of people being able to do it uh be be stuck into pornography it's quite horrifying um I think probably one of the more challenging

Ones in terms of the pastors and the church and as we sit in that space and we start to think of, you know, with pastors and with the church digital and otherwise, is there a safe space? Is there a space to go for leaders in the church? Youth leaders, youth pastors, worship leaders, executive pastors, pastors, wives. Um, and in that kind of space, we really feel that the work that we've been able to be exposed to um is significant.

There's a desperate need, uh, sorry, excuse me, a desperate need of like, how do we provide help? You know, is it anonymous? And we'll touch on that a little bit later. Is it best to bring it out onto the platform? Is it best to be able to create a testimony out of it? How do we actually work in a space that is going to protect the church?

When we talk about pastors and leadership and I know there's many um out there um on the platform today um it's a really important kind of process of what we're needing to wrestle with, how we bring it into the open and understanding that pornography is one area and one aspect of it, but the reality is that um it's everywhere. It's in the church. It's in the people that we sit next to. It's in the people that we work with um and it's certainly very definitely in the church. I've got a great friend of mine, Derek. He's quite a hooligan um and he's like, "This is the leprosy that the current church, the nowadays church is facing inside of the church, and if we don't take ownership and take development in that, we are really going to get ourselves caught into a process that is not um helpful at all."

Talking about processes, we we also need to understand the process addiction, that myth that it's not so bad, a little bit of porn never hurt anybody. Um, it's, you know, you know, we work online, so like, why should that become a problem? But if we really dig it deep and I'm sure all of you are also familiar with this, and if not, I would encourage you to really dive into like researching data and see what the trends are because we want to go upstream. We don't want to be the guys that are trying to catch people um in the dam at the bottom, but to really go upstream and be part of the solution. Um, and we understand that those kind of symptoms um are very similar when we are talking about coming off of a heroin addiction or if we are coming off of fentanyl um or if we're coming off of a pharmaceutical um or a sex addiction um or working out the relationship between a sex addiction and and and a marriage um and working in the space of eating disorders and how to manage that.

The symptoms are all crossing over and the biological effects are also very, very, very closely tied into it. The neurological impact we know and understand now um is is one that can be restored, but it takes time and we do need to create those new neurological pathways and to be able to foster healthy, workable neurological pathways whilst also taking a change within the ability to understand the underlying principles. In fact, if you um, I'm sure you've seen this one. I've said that a couple of times today, but but this particular slide really just stands out for me.

Um, we use it a lot in our training and when we go into the churches and we've trained into several thousand churches so far in our career in Project Exodus of changing the way that recovery has been delivered and we see that the normal brain on the left hand side um looks healthy. Um, we've been driving through an amazing part of the country over the last two days and it often looks like the brown and barren, but yet there's green and shrubs and growth. But if you look at a heroin user and we compare that to somebody that's using pornography, the damage is significant uh and the similarities are also significant. The challenge that the church and our government faces, that often when addiction is the discussion or we are working with people that are coming out of addiction or fighting to find their way into freedom.

Uh, and remembering that freedom is is not just a a one-off kind of position. I know for me personally that the the healing and the and the immediate kind of miracle that took place with me besides my salvation is that my ability to have a freedom of choice was restored. So my freedom of choice was restored. It remains my responsibility to maintain that freedom. But the families go um, are the families getting impacted significantly? And we have to ask ourselves, are we doing enough for the families? Are the families being given a voice? Are they along going along their own recovery journey? Are they getting the ability to understand what has happened to them? What the kind of trauma that sits within that kind of space? Because 71% um, our spouses experience post-traumatic stress disorder symptoms. In fact, the intimate partner and violence and the regular pornography use um is is just an escalating pandemic. The divorce rates are more than double, I believe. And it is absolutely critical that we address recovery from a holistic perspective, not just from the guys that are in recovery or battling to get in recovery or using.

And the truth of the matter is that the process addiction is often more than just the same and just as damaging, but far, far greater.

Often we we hear the guys saying, "Well, I can't afford to go to rehab, or if I get to rehab, that's going to solve the problem." And when the my loved one or employee or our church member gets back or our leadership gets back, then the rehab's done the job and we know that these days that is simply not the case. In fact, 90% of people who need treatment never receive it. We are fortunate in South Africa that we have a have a an ability to really try and reach far and wide through a national drug master plan. But the resources to be able to deliver that is really, really stretched and um, unfortunately we know on an international level according to the World Health Organization and the UNODC is that treatment challenges remain significant.

Affordability is a significant process around it. Availability to developmental resolution by centered program is limited. Often treatment rehabs are um, the time to we've spent investing in our recovery in this worship disorder that we've aligned lives against, careers against families um, businesses and ministries against that one month or two months or three months is insufficient in terms of duration and has debatable efficacy. What is the particular challenge is that the continuum of care that needs to be maintained in treatment is often flawed and that break in communication and the break in the continuity of treatment means that short-term treatment simply lacks efficacy in its sustainability. So from my perspective um, if we look at time within recovery and there's that old saying I'm sure everybody knows that time takes time.

We have an amazing fruit here in South Africa called the pawpaw um, which takes time to get ripe and if you grab this beautiful succulent fruit and you try and squeeze it ripe, we know that it doesn't feature into a way of any kind of duration. And so that 28 days um is not going to do very much in terms of but but assisting in the transition of stopping and perhaps getting a level of stabilization.

Long-term treatment takes time and the healing and the restoration is a critical component that goes with that. We found it really helpful in working with the churches and to be able to spread a good understanding of what addiction is and perhaps even what it's not, but more importantly what it is is to really be able to understand it from an iceberg principle. It shows a lot of um clarity in terms of folk who are not um understanding what the addiction um criteria are and who debate it and who wonder from a medical perspective whether that is covering it well.

But we do know the symptoms of what it looks like with isolation, denial, trauma, dual diagnosis, deregulation, shame, culture, spiritual of course, spiritual disconnection, emotional intelligence, etc.

I it really makes a significant impact if they have an understanding especially from a church perspective that there's a complex and a substantial amount of work that needs to be done in that ongoing development and restoration as far as the east is from the west.

And in fact, when we look at recovery, we see truth, community, mental health being restored, new mindsets, healthy beliefs, self-worth, spiritual connection, authenticity, optimal brain functioning, relationships being restored, coping skills being established and so on.

And we already see the fruits of a culture of recovery. And the reality sits and remains that the truth is that effective strategies and accessible access need to be ongoing. It's not a one-off thing. It's not a quick fix. It's a process as we do the paradigm shift as far as the east is from the west.

We are pushing off of a point and driving towards the east. And in that space, we're pushing way. We needing to build momentum, build culture, build sustainability.

And we understand critically that in the next myth that the church is not a hospital and it's not able to do the things that need to be done, actually there's a whole lot that the church can done, can do that hasn't been done. I should add the church has a pivotal role to play to provide continuum of care, to provide support, non-judgment, to understand that it's not them and us. Critically, people coming into recovery within the church actually is the whole church because we are in a state of recovery. We are being restored forward to our rightful potential and position in Christ.

And we know that that process of sanctification carries on the whole time. It's just different levels. And in fact, when we work with the guys who are seeking recovery and healing and restoration, be it from trauma and post-traumatic stress and um and substance abuse and families being affected, etc., we are all on the same journey of seeking Christ and ready to push into it. And the church is perfectly positioned, perfectly positioned to take a stand.

So we know that scripture well. Um, we know the scripture well. And he does, he does destroy. So from my perspective as Project Exodus, we love to empower the local church and the joy of digital is that the local church stretches far and wide and we really want to change the culture of addiction, of negativity, of um, by works into a situation that actually there's work to be done in faith um and to be able to work together in partnership and in the ability to create a recovery culture through recovery services in a broader community base.

And the question remains that if the church doesn't do this, who will? I think within the states, the war on drugs has been um ongoing uh in many ways in terms of walls, in terms of budgets, in terms of um, yeah, it's in all over the world that you know the the the bridges that have been broken down of trying to get this right. Um, and really the answer remains in the church. And if the church doesn't, who will?

Many churches like host a meeting and they want just a meeting to be um great. We've got a meeting, guys, and um, I can see you're a bit under the weather um at church today. You're coming to pray for people, but perhaps spending a little bit of alcohol. Um, let's send them to a a meeting um that's been hosted in the church. That's not going to work from my perspective. We've got to break down the walls between them and us. We have to do that. The church needs to own the ministry as part of the church.

And we also own the ministry. The congregation, the community, the leadership needs to start speaking about this and talking about it and really running and establishing a culture whirlpool of recovery within the church because we are looking for a church that is not inward-looking but outward looking.

And that's where discipleship and restoration takes place. My favorite scripture, we love to do this in training. It's a little bit difficult to do online but this scripture of leaving the 99 in the wide open country and going after the one.

Um, and we and we at the moment are in sheep country and let me tell you there's thorn bushes and dry ground and snakes and everything else that goes with it.

But when you go after the one, leave the 99, go after the one, it's not an easy process. It's not a quick fix. It's about going out and getting dirty, getting your hands dirty and really, really making a difference within that space.

So remembering that leading a dynamic recovery ministry is the church's mandate. It's not about the champion in the church or the guy who's got a vested interest in this.

It's not about that because the moment we take the iceberg principle, we know that only 10% is the actual addiction behavior and the 90% is what sustains it.

And anybody who's been through a death or grieving or post-traumatic stress or any of these multiple processes still have that 90% of hurt and shame or grief or processing or loss or any of these areas to work with and that is the church.

It's not them and us. If we don't create this whirlpool deliberately and create that momentum, break the inertia and maintain that momentum, we are going to carry on losing the pathway.

There's the subject about anonymity is critical. Um I have a tattoo um which I'm not meant to be showing around but I thought why not do it seeing as it is online but Ezekiel 37 um value of the bones.

We are raising up an army and it's not going to help if the guys have been quiet and ducking back to be in or not in sin or to be able to create a lack of accountability.

Accountability is the church. Authenticity is the church. Truth is the church. Speaking it out, bringing it out into the light. That's the church. So whilst we can respect that process of bringing people into the courage and ability of developing a testimony because we know we overcome by the power of the blood of the lamb and the word of our spoken testimony that it is really, really, really critical. Sin dies in the light. It is a critical component that when I'm weak then I'm strong.

It's when I'm weak. His strength in fact is perfected in my weakness. Not my strength, his strength. And who wouldn't want that? Not that I'm encouraging to go and become addicted so that you can experience that.

No, quite the contrary. It's about you don't have to be an addiction to be involved in the recovery of the church. We need to shift this from shame into glory.

To be able to really bring to light spaces where nothing needs to be hidden. Groups are a cutting edge process to be able to do that and to build community and to build that process.

So tonight I want to just really say to you that life is better in a circle. We are born that way. I'm not sure how much time is left.

Um and I would encourage you to jump onto our website and really find out much about our approach. Our approach is innovative. It is Christ-centered.

It is new. It is cutting edge. It's piloted. Um it is beautiful and we would encourage you to really partake in life-giving resolution-oriented um resources.

Jeff, um I think you guys are amazing and we look forward to a way forward in the future and really let's raise up an army and get the work done that needs to be done.

Thanks.

Yeah. No, I I I love this. Conrad, don't go anywhere. Stay on. Um such such a good presentation. I was was talking offline with um Andy and Stacy backstage and just the like the the this is your brain uh this is your brain on whatever the drug was and this is your brain on porn like that was yeah that was no pun intended mind-blowing for me um to to see you know what what the effect of of that is the idea of um the recovery of the church.

You may or may not be addicted to something, but we all can have a part playing in in the the recovery of the church and embracing the stigmas.

Six of seven pastors have have struggled with porn um at some time in their lives. And I just did a mental check and I can think of five that I've had a conversation with my lifetime.

I'm a guy that's worked with with pastors, you know, the majority of my my my career life around that. And so, you know, there's there's a lot of stigmas that that that are surrounded by this.

Now, now we're I want to ask a couple questions. We're a bunch of, >> you know, um, you know, the Raga Muffin band, Square Pegs and Round Holes, Island of Toys, you know, we're we're >> very much so and you know, we're the people who think differently.

>> So, you know, as a as an organization, as as an IND at the individual levels really want to go. >> Yes. >> Um, what what does how do we how do we change like normally how do we enact change?

Normally, it's like top down. Okay, let's get a, you know, a lead pastor's got to get a vision and do something and then there's like organization change.

That's that's really not who we are. We're we're we're individuals kind of at at the bottom of this. And so, >> yeah, >> how would you suggest what does it look like to to maybe start to enact that change or create that cultural shift uh within organizations?

Sure. Sure. Jeff, I think, you know, and and not to be clichéd and say like prayer is a good a good solution to it because it's, you know, obviously, but you know, we are have to pray for more wisdom and faith.

So I think it's a good decision to be able to educate ourselves as much as we possibly can in that area. We were we were up in Zambia a short while ago working with a whole bunch of of of bishops in those in those areas representing multiple churches and we we were chatting to them and doing a presentation and they said your stats are great Conrad but let me tell you ours is that every week we see five bodies of people that have killed themselves um from um suicide from shame of pornography or homosexuality or those kind of spaces and substance abuse overdoses and that's in Lusaka um and and when you look at that and you start looking at the amount of children that have gone through sexual abuse um and The numbers are just staggering are absolutely staggering.

It comes down to one person making a change and making a difference. Um and it's about really embracing that process and saying I'm going to be making a difference and making a change throughout the conversations.

Be authentic. Be transparent. If you struggling or you're going to don't hide, don't give it the power. In fact, disempower it by bringing into the light with some strong strong folks.

You can speak to us. We can direct you. Create safe spaces initially to get this going. Um and to build a momentum. There's great training online.

You can jump onto online training. We'll teach you how to run groups. And I know a lot of us are we run small groups and those kind of things.

But when you have good technique and good structure in that and then you have a a depth of resource that is available to you which you can deliver within the group culture and the whirlpool very quickly we can create action and many churches start like that through small home groups.

So yeah get it started get get into it. Uh take take a stand.

I I I love this. I was going to ask a question about culture u and how to establish a culture but we actually just had a question come in in the in the Q&A that I think is good. What are signs that we are inventing a porn addiction? Um instead of just every once in a while fail falling for porn like at what point is is it uh is that the person saying I would not call it addiction just a bad thing like at what point does it does it become oh I failed you know once to oh go I got a problem.

Yeah yeah yeah brilliant question. Thanks for your parage of coming out and doing that.

Um the answer to your questions I think you've answered the question. Um the reality is that in in our minds both from a biblical perspective um and from a from an addiction perspective is if we move this word addiction and we demystify the word addiction is from a Latin word meaning wholly devoted to. Yeah. So if we take the picture of needles and death and everything else out of the way and we look at a behavior disorder and we look that we do not want to keep on crucifying Christ or going back into living in sin.

We want to bring it into a place behind it. There's some hectic quotes. um looking at pornography is as if heroin um has been devised 100 times stronger than heroin injected directly into our eyes.

When that image comes into your mind and into your process behind it, it's really difficult to remove. It alters the way that we think.

It alters our spiritual foundation and our spiritual base. In fact, Jesus Yeshua was so strong in it. He said, "If you lust with your eyes, you've committed adultery already within that space." Not to give you a heavy or to lay a trip in it, but if you're assessing it, like why would you want to do it? Why would you want to look at the daughter of our king being abused on a screen? Why would you want to be able to look at your daughter?

Perhaps we have to start asking ourselves some really seriously hard questions that is that in God's will or my will and if we are really going to be be reverent and pushing into a place of reverence.

Um there's an amazing book of John Bevere um maybe for some guys say it's not for everybody maybe don't know but for me the reverence of our king um is something that that changes lives.

Um, so if if you're going to do it and you do it once, that's once too much. Um, it is probably the most addictive behavior that we can it it's having run treatment centers.

Um, and we've had big treatment centers and running it for a long-term treatment. Pornography is perhaps one of the hardest behavior disorders. It's can the word addiction and and discard that.

That behavior disorder, how is so duplicit and stealthy and so close to the truth in terms of sex and in terms of love and creation and marriage and all of those kind of things.

Why would we want to endanger ourselves and our godly purpose and our wives and our husbands and because the women are like a couple of percent down that road.

So yeah, if I ask you the question, you need to go challenge yourself.

Yeah. So good. Um it's just even to follow up on this at at a personal level and thank you the person that's asking the question and honestly um it's um like for at a personal level for me I fought for years whether or not I was addicted. Um and that that years of me asking that question actually prevented me from from getting the help that I need.

And and it wasn't until I said, "Okay, I don't even know what it means, but okay, I'm addicted." Um, you know, and I stopped the fight where I the the brokenness of that actually, I believe, allowed God to kind of work through me in that.

It's not a problem. It's not a problem. You know, Romans Romans 3 as pastors, we talk about it all the time. You know, for all of sin and fallen short, we're not we're not getting there.

And so, as a result of that, you what is addiction? Is it one time? Is it two times? Is it three times? 10, 20? Does it matter?

You know, at at the greater point of this, asking that question honestly became a defense mechanism preventing me from getting the help that I that I needed.

Can I can I jump just one comment onto the back of what you're saying? This when we start talking about breaking myths and breaking the process behind it, the the introduction of the word addict as a qualifying process behind it is a complete misdirection.

You know, it's like it's not about like I fit this label or I don't fit this label. You you said it. We square pegs and round holes.

We weren't the guys that run within the same kind of process around it. Let's take that word addiction completely out. That whole thing of rock bottom completely out.

Who do you want to be in Christ? How do you want to behave? How would your daughter you like your daughter to be treated?

Let's ask ourselves some really hard questions. Take that word addiction out because that is a block to the healing and restoration that waits inside for your weakness for his strength to be perfected so that you carry the authority of the creator of the universe on your shoulders.

Game changer. Why would we want to do it?

Yeah. So good. All right. Project Exodus. Uh if you're in Hublau, the link's on the website. If not, it's project.net is the website. Exodus.net. Um we the church digital are partnering with with Project Exodus uh to create uh once again Project Exodus works with churches and organizations to create a culture of of recovery.

And we're happy to announce we're going to get more into this here in in a little bit that we are are starting uh a recovery ministry and recovery groups and and moving towards in that in that culture of recovery working with Project Exodus literally in South Africa.

I'm excited. Stacy and the team has been working on this for uh for a couple months now, getting certified and getting equipped and trained in all this and and so we're going to talk more about the the beta in in a little bit.

But at an organizational level, if you're interested in creating a culture of recovery, project.net is a great option for you. Conrad, I know we've had some frustrating tech issues today, but I want

Yeah, no problem.

And jumping on today and and I hope you have a good evening in South Africa and uh we'll be in touch soon, I'm sure.

Wonderful. Thanks so much. God bless you.

Awesome. Hey, thank you, Conrad, uh for for that that keynote. Really good. Uh you know, pornography addiction, looking at how it works and and and affects the brain. Um it's a struggle, y'all. And and and so, but doing ministry in this space, there's there's going to be exposure. You know, it's one of the things that honestly is is really surprising to me how open, how transparent, and how prevalent it is in digital and virtual spaces.

Now look, look, those of you that are like broadcasting church services online and and the only community that you really have is in like um you know the chat of uh of uh church online platform. I'm not saying there's anything wrong with that, but you are not going to get the exposure. You're not going to get people being really honest like they would be with the with the struggles they're going through.

And and and so now you go hang out in virtual reality, go hang out in a video game, go hang out in Discord in in in some of these these open spaces where people can be more more comfortable with who they are. Um yes, it's it's going to get real and and and as a result of that, a lot of the problems are real. Uh, you know, we had we had a church we're working with recently that had like I don't know, three or four suicide attempts over the span of a month. Uh, literally a digital church that had three or four suicides over the span of February 2025. And uh, and so and how do you deal with those situations?

How can you help the people deal with those situations? That particular church um, didn't have an ecosystem at the time to kind of help them process. And so we stepped in to help them do that. If you're going to do digital ministry, and this is the thing that I love about how we do digital missions, you're getting real with people. You're digging into that relationship. And so I uh I'm very excited uh to be part of an organization that's willing to uh address some of these issues head on.

Um and and even one that's that's willing to take some learnings from the lessons that I've learned at a personal level and saying, "Hey, this this recovery stuff is is important." And and the more that we can shine the lightness in the darkness, the more that that light first off needs to shine on ourselves. And and and if we've got things that need to be addressed at a personal level, let's address it and let's be transparent about addressing it because the more that we can be honest about our own struggles, the more that others can relate to us as they're going through their own struggles as well. And so this is the heart behind what's going on with care. I think we got Stacy coming up here in a little bit, maybe about an hour or so, a couple hours uh towards that.

Um, hey, uh, okay. So, we had Leighton, um, is, you know, let me bring Leighton in first. Let's do that. Um, hey Leighton, how's it going? Push the button. Oh, wrong button. Hey, Leighton, how's it going?

Doing good. Doing good.

Awesome. Hey, uh, I saw somebody else stumbled in as as well with you just now. Uh, and so I want to bring him into the conversation. Maybe the three of us can have a talk. I don't know how much you know, Sam. Uh, have have you s Sam Sam, have you had a chance to connect with Leighton yet?

No, I haven't.

Awesome. Well, this is the great time to make it happen. So, uh, Leighton is our our gaming, um, outpost director and, uh, gaming streaming outpost director. And, uh, more than that, he also does a lot with with tangible, uh, resources and is incredible helping individuals and people get connected through through TCD.

I, you know, I think I know a lot of people and and Leighton actually knows knows far more. Leighton knows the people I know and then Leon knows people I don't know, which is, which is awesome.

Now Sam, you're really you're really interesting to me, you know, uh and and so um you know, Sam, maybe just to set this up, tell us a little bit about your yourself. What like u what what what's your story? How and why did you get connected to the church digital?

No, I appreciate it, Jeff. Um, one of the things that I thought was really interesting is uh, I was a student in Fuller and I was doing some research about the digital space and I came across some work from the church digital and that's when I went behind the curtain saw there was a holy grail and just realized there was so much goodness and from that space I began to look at in my research how does uh, global Christian leaders specifically apostolic leaders engage in the digital space and that was my departure point.

A little bit about my background. Um been in the military for 25 years. Um a serial entrepreneur especially in innovation. I'm a minister for over 30 years. I serve uh at a global level with a organization called IAL International Coalition of Apostolic Leaders. So I'm in this place in post retirement looking to becoming an adjunct at a local business school of trying to help the physical poles raise up the digital Timothies and Phoebes.

And at this intersection point I'm looking at it with my military hat. How do we do strategy? I'm looking at it with my innovation hat. How do we innovate the tools we don't have? I'm looking at it from a historical perspective. Were the Martin Luther to Martin Luthers to unleash the digital reformation.

And so in this space, I am just so excited to be amongst my tribe that I didn't realize was my tribe. Um and to learn more. So I hope that's a little enough about me to to go anywhere we need to go.

No, I I I love it. Actually, we just had a comment come in from Pastor D. Hey, Pastor D. Um Pastor D here. Uh, I I tuned in at the at the perfect time. Uh, if if you have not met Sam, if you've not met Pastor D, that needs to happen. So, Pas Pastor D is House of His Glory uh is a church in, forgive me, Pastor D, Southern California. I want to say LA proper, but it may be. I I think she moved recently. I I don't I don't remember. But um she um is a is a she's been a digital church pastor hybrid but not hybrid the way we would. It's actually more of a digital only church with the studio. Um she's been doing that for like 10 years like at least. Oh wow.

And and so incredible connection very very apostolic and uh but anyway uh you know what Sam I've I've loved um connecting with you and and kind of learning about some some of your heart for digital. Um what what kind of got you on this road of doing digital ministry or interested in digital space?

Yeah. Um, so if you can imagine having a front seat when uh Russia invaded um Ukraine or being in places where they're playing with um uh China and Taiwan. So I was in special operations and we had to grapple with this, right? And so as I worked through these digital challenges for the nation, my heart also went to apostolic leaders, Christian leaders who are working with these same challenges and the transferability of insights and lessons learned. I'm like, "Wow, we're learning a lot in the military. Is the church ready for these insights? Do they even know where this is happening um for the kingdom of God?" And so that's really where my heart began to turn towards the digital.

That that's great. Um Leighton, what are you thinking?

Uh he was just talking about Ukraine and my brain went immediately to Teemo who I know in Ukraine. Uh he's not from Ukraine, but he's he is helping do church multiplication and church planting in Ukraine in the middle of everything going on. And just thinking about the strategy and strategic moving into there and I've been trying to influence him with digital things but he's not quite that innovative himself but the church there could totally utilize that.

So when you're talking about strategy like my brain's already connecting people that's that's like Jeff is talking about like you talk you mention something and I will go oh uh I know someone there or oh I need to find and know someone that's uh connecting with those things. So yeah, maybe I need to connect you with uh Teemo and uh what he's been doing over in Ukraine if you're trying to stay connected with uh any boots on the ground in that area.

But I Oh, one other thing you were talking about doing research. We've had uh over the last three years, probably three or four people that have come to us and done research within TCD of asking people, what are you doing? We've had people that have used that for dissertations that have have produced those things. I probably have a copy of those somewhere in my files if if you're interested in any of those things.

Uh but I'm I'm just fascinated that the the church where it's starting to get some traction is around people that are pushing it when they're doing a dissertation and asking questions and wanting to do research. And that's a great place to connect with those of us who are out of the box thinkers who are saying, "Yeah, we're we I want to be the the Philip that doesn't wait for permission to go get told to go do something. The Holy Spirit said, "Go do it." And I said, "Yes." You know, so that that's what I'm thinking. Jeff.

Awesome. Do you know Russia in the in the Ukrainian war? Uh Russia used Discord to communicate among the troops and

I mean that that's that's it's just it was phenomenal. Like when when I heard that I I just was like I mean I knew I knew it was powerful and I knew it was secure, but I didn't think it was that secure. So I mean I hate to say good for Russia in a war, but actually I am Russian. I don't know who I should cheer for. Uh but uh anyway, that's that's another story. Um so I one of the things Sam uh that I I was that really intrigued me about you.

Sam's relatively what three months how uh three months kind of hanging out with us and um you know I know you had a conversation it piqued my interest. You had a conversation with me about the idea of doing like a a digital leadership conference or or something like that. Maybe tell me a little bit about what you're thinking about with that.

Yeah. So, I really appreciate the opportunity, Jeff, to share my heart. So, as I went through my research at Fuller, I realized a couple things that people are struggling and we're in this physical first lens, but we're shifting to the digital first space.

And from my research, I found out that these seven global leaders, every continent representative, they're doing a couple things. They're first, they're building the plan, and that causes them to look at the platforms, um, as Jason Morris talks about platforms, you know, for nations, but also there's the ability, and this was a critical insight, to step into the character nature of God. What do I mean by that? You can design a community that's asynchronous, that's outside of time, the architect of those communities.

Are we transplatform? Are we transnational people? When we talk about being called to a place um with my wife and I serving 48 countries, we're transnational.

What does that look like? What is the community, the logistics? Now, we're talking about Paul, right? And so in this, they all had a digital team.

So I talk about how do you select the digital team you know if you're looking at it from an apisog lens that the apest model you know what does that look digitally you know and then after you select the platforms and the tools then you begin to execute the strategy you know how are they nurturing that relationship for those kingdom goals regardless if it's in the marketplace or the church and so my heart is how do we train the leaders to take the insight God has given them and say, "Here are some tools. Go play. Let's go for God."

Yeah. I I love that. And when you told me that the first time around, I I just was like, "This is this is part of the digital missionary conference. Like, we've we've got to figure out how to tie this in and and make this come in." And so, I I'm not actually thinking about the conference.

And I'm I'm telling you this, Sam, I haven't said this to you yet. I'm not allowing my brain to think about the conference until January 1st.

And so January 1st, we'll start carving out the conference in in May. And so we'll be we'll be working very closely towards that. People are like, "You should always plan your conferences like 12 to 18 months out." I I ain't got no chance of that, man.

It's it's go ahead.

The disadvantage there is if you're planning that far out, it might miss the mark of what is fresh.

Yeah. So if you're only planning it three months out, everything is fresh. The most tangible things, the most current things that people are doing, cutting edge stuff.

You get a lot more cutting edge if you you go in a shorter time frame.

Yeah, it's, you know, and that's that's my that's the reason one of my hopes is that the organization, the church digital, continues to stay agile so we can adjust and adapt and and and and uh and go with the, you know, go with the wind, so to speak, as we start to see some some different things happening. And and so um very very excited uh for uh for what you were talking about.

Oh man, this this is good. We'll have to we'll pivot here a little bit. We just had a guest come in. I I'll be with you in one second, sir.

But um so uh um Sam, like how let me ask just what is what is Fuller's posture around digital? I've got some friends at Fuller.

You know, you are pro. I've I've have another friend over there that's pro. I know. Well, I've got several friends over there that are allergic to digital, so to speak.

So, like, what what is the school's actual position there on digital?

Well, they just hired a I can't remember his um title, but it's it's in the digital space and they just had a conference in October where they were looking at all the students uh latest thinking because they want to pivot more into that space. Interesting. And as you know, Fuller has been doing a lot of great work in the um distance learning space, but they're realizing there's an opportunity that has yet to be um challenged or even seen.

So they're they're marshalling the scholars to say where are we going? So there might be an opportunity to influence that space.

Yeah. I was I won't I won't say the name of the university uh but there was a university that wanted me to come on to be an adjunct professor and uh went through several rounds of interviews and everything was fine and then at some point I honestly I think it was the third conversation in the third conversation they finally realized I never got my masters uh I never did anything beyond undergraduate and they were like why are we talking to you and I was like you called me, you tell me. And so, like, it was they ended up cutting it off. Uh, but I do I do love that.

Listen, if for for this to take foot, the seminaries are going to have to adapt uh in in the the the graduate level. Like that's where I think at least in the US that's where the US church pivots more towards digital because I I think even even this next generation of of churches are being trained in a in a different direction. I suddenly have this realization that everybody on the screen is frozen once again except for me.

That is really funny. I I I thought they were with me and everything's great. Flak happened and late and they're come calling back in.

Let's get them back on. Okay. Um I man I was having this great monologue here and and and you all were listening intently and then like I looked at Leighton and he wasn't moving and so I was like oh man.

The last thing I heard was the seminaries are going to have to take hold.

Yeah. I mean the seminaries are going to have to pivot in my opinion to really especially at least in the US uh for for digital to to make a footprint to make a foothold.

Um because I was mentioning that there are people who are bringing it up when they're doing dissertations. So there are some publications being put out there.

So as soon as that starts to get disseminated and there is research into it, then someone is going to step forward and say, "Hey, we're the first ones going to have an emphasis in this." And it might start at the doctoral level first before they can figure out how to bring it down to the lower levels. At the same time, there's a couple of people trying to figure out at the collegiate level how to just have an emphasis in digital ministry.

Um, Brad Hickey, I can never get his name right. Uh, over at Dor College is uh pioneering trying to to move in that direction to get uh an emphasis in digital ministry so that people can go into a church and say, "I have training and go into it." But yeah.

Yeah. The church digital, we're not waiting for all that to happen. Yeah, just just practition right and know one of the things that I was trying to birth and and I think is going to get some steam is a new field.

It's called global digital mythology. And so you take digital mythology which is a field, you take global leadership which is a field and you take the practice of Christian leadership and you combine those three together and it's it's fertile ground because if you look at our platforms there are geographic agnostic.

There might be some vents and you know leanings towards it but really anyone across time zones and space and so how do you manage a global uh platform or community how do you grow those leaders I mean so the field is wide open and so hopefully we can carve out that academic space to have that conversation under the banner of global digital miology.

Yeah. I I love you being around because you understand that space well.

Uh and um I I I love having somebody that understands the academic realm. You know, there have been there have been organizations that have asked us to kind of spearhead research projects and and um I know Lison was talking about something I don't know maybe a year or so ago and so nothing nothing came of that but there's there's plenty of opportunities at the global level. There are plenty of people globally that are asking solid questions.

I I don't know, you know, how much the US is at this point, but I know globally there's there's definitely an interest in what we're doing and excited uh to work with you uh Sam moving forward uh to, you know, bring some of those questions to light to to help work through answers and uh and and help, you know, move the direction of of digital discipleship and evangelism. So, Man, Sam, thanks for hanging out with us today.

Uh, as as we're wrapping up for you, man. Any any other questions? Anything anything we can or any other thoughts?

Um, one of the things that I'm trying to do is uh at samuelhayes.org.

Um, we're trying to donate some books. I wrote a couple books, but we're trying to donate some uh innovation books through the Joseph Journey and Dream in Africa.

Uh so if you want to help us contribute those books um just go there and you'll see it under the contact portion uh about our opportunity to give back.

Awesome. So Samuel s a m uel hayes h a yees.org and so check that out. Uh it's it's a noble cause donating some books to Africa.

Uh Sam, uh you'll be hearing from me in in about a month, uh as as we start to figure out the digital missionary conference and and we're gonna we're gonna go to town, man.

I'm I'm excited about that opportunity uh coming up. Okay.

Okay.

Awesome. Thank you, sir. Appreciate it. All right. Hey, Leighton. Um we had a schedule shift.

Um well, I'm in Leighton's time a little bit here. I'm just late all around. It's it's it's it's that day. But I do want to bring this individual in if I can.

I hate to do this to you, Leighton. Um, and so, uh, I've got Conrad Cooper, uh, CEO of Project Exodus on Hey, Conrad. How are you, sir?

Evidently, Conrad does not know that I am here. This is funny. He's literally in South Africa. Can somebody like throw something at him? Hey, there you go.

Hey, Conrad. Hey. Hey. Still nothing. He is working in the background and has no clue. Okay. Hey, Conrad. We'll we'll try to come back again later.

Um I I I will have to WhatsApp him here in in a minute. Um Leighton, let's go ahead and um let me hand it over to you with your time.

Um, I know, uh, you know, first off, I'm very thankful, Leighton, as Leighton disconnects. Oh, jeez. God bless the internet. All right, Leighton's back.

Let me see if I can get Conrad at this point. Conrad, can you see me now?

Yep, I can see you and I can hear you.

Awesome. We came to you a minute ago and uh you were very intently working. Uh but I'm I'm glad you uh you're connected with us for for the conversation.

Thank you. Sorry about that. Uh yeah, might have got carried away. I think I got the time zones mixed up as per usual.

Yeah.

Um so I have to make about a 60-minute buffer on each side of them to to make sure we landed well.

Yeah, I I do. Yeah, we've already discussed on the stream that um uh time zones are the bane of existence and uh they just need to be abolished all the way across the country.

Somebody will have to work in the middle of the night, but you know, it's whatever. It's it's for the good of common man. Uh but Conrad,

we bought that.

Yeah. Thanks for jumping on. Um we we watched your your keynote maybe 30 minutes to an hour ago um that you that you recorded with the church digital.

Um and maybe you know tell us a little bit and so like we already went through some of the stigmas we talked about you know the role of the church.

Um maybe at a at a personal level um what is this this calling in this cause for you that to create this organization to create a culture of of healthy recovery like tell me a little bit uh of of of your personal story in here uh if if you don't mind.

Sure. Um, only my pleasure. I think one of the most important aspects to hang on to from a recovery perspective, um, both from I guess a therapeutic kind of perspective as well as somebody that's in recovery, um, is the healthy sense of desperation.

And when I say desperation, I don't mean anxiety. I don't mean um a performance-based area at all. But rather if we can really nurture the hunger and the desire and a level of desperation to move forward and to really take the very healing that we've received ourselves or that I've received myself and understand that I've received that so that I have a responsibility so that I can roll it out um to the guys that I come across um and in turn them.

Uh, we were at an amazing meeting with 3C Church and the G12 guys today and their love of discipleship and the simplicity with which they bring their approach to discipleship um and really just stripping down all of the process behind it. And Jeff, you'll probably love it. One of the analogies that was used is that we have a group, I suppose a denomination in South Africa called the ZCC, and ZCC is a huge organization. And it's, you know, I mean they put together a short while ago 90,000 people in a stadium. Um, they're really large, and the beauty of it is they don't have any churches. Um, they're an outside-based church. Um, they dress well in a particular outfit and they have, you know, a certain seating area. And the question I guess that was being asked was, you know, the amount of funding or commitment to making disciples really starts off at that kind of level in terms of the funding that's needed or the desire to make change at a really grassroots kind of level. So yeah, I think from my perspective, um, Dave Valente, God willing, uh, on the 20th of January, in I guess a month in a couple of days time, um, I'll be 26 years in recovery.

And um, I'm reminded through that space that every breath I take, I owe to God, not in terms of debt or in terms of um anything, but being a bondservant, a free bondservant. One that's decided to be able to really just embrace um my savior, my redeemer um who pulled me out of the miry clay and put me, um, you know, whilst in the midst of my sin and put me onto the solid rock. Like, you know, there's purpose behind it. There's a deliberateness of, you know, that we have a mission to accomplish and a mission to do it, and we all have that mission field um irrespective of how it may or may not portray ourselves as long as we keep that first love well ignited and on fire.

Well, so I'm not really answering your question directly, but I guess, you know, in running through it, um, you know, today the 2nd of December is a really poignant day for me. Um, I remember this day um in 2001 like it was yesterday. Um, you know, I'd been in recovery at that point in time, I guess for, um, sure, just about a year and three-quarters, nearly two years. A month, I two years in recovery at that point in time, against all um recommendations and process, I'd opened a rehabilitation center. Uh, we had 15 residents, and um, the night before, uh, the Friday the 1st, um, yeah, the night before the Friday the first, we'd been at the church that we were attending with all the guys in recovery on the night of the 1st of December. It was a very rainy night in South Africa down in Ramsgate on the south coast. Um, Shelly Beach just up the road, and um, the pastor, Pastor Peter Lea, put on a bit of a spread for the guys in recovery and for everybody, and we had a good evening, and my sister phoned me. Um, she was four years my senior, and I said I can't talk, and I had my mom visiting, which is part of the fruit of recovery, I guess, and um, I gave the phone to her. And um, the next morning in church, um, my phone rang and I saw it was my dad who lived up in Johannesburg, which was 600 kilometers away, and um, I knew that something was not right. And um, I went outside, took the phone call, um, and he told me, you know, are you alone? Um, you know, are you sitting down? You know, your sister, my sister Melanie, um, was dead.

Um, and he was sitting in the bathroom with her um at the age of 44. Um, she had passed away, and her three sons, who at that stage were nine, um, and 12, and 30, just turning 14. Um, had found her body. Had um gone to wake up in the morning. It was early in the morning. Um, and she had run a bath and she was in the bathroom and it was locked, and she had, they had had to literally take an ax to the door to get through and unlock the door and then phoned for help.

And um, my sister died from a ruptured aneurysm, which was brought on from substance abuse, and that was the ultimate cause um of her death.

So, so I sit, you know, 24 years down the road, um, you know, talking to my three nephews, um, and today, and, you know, looking at their lives and the differences that are made within that space of time that's gone on in 24 years and the impact that it had on me and my mom and my dad and everybody else. And it, it's often in recovery and working in recovery, you know, we speak the language and we like want to save lives and we want to do it, but it's pretty hard to keep that tie in of the emotional kind of state and what people go through at that point in time. And you know, where it doesn't matter what happened or, you know, in terms of like the history or the hurt that was caused around, you know, broken relationships, when what really does matter is that there was a level of, I know, my sister desperation to get up.

Yeah. You know, um, luckily the um six months prior to that, you know, I'd managed, you know, to have conversations with her where she had given her life a fresh, um, in that very same church. Um, and um, so so I knew her destination, but it wasn't a clean exit and it wasn't a space that, you know, she was trying to get in recovery.

And one of the things that that really stood out for me, Jeff, jump in any point in time and shut me down or ask any questions, but um, one of the things that really frustrated me at that point in time was, young in the recovery industry, I wasn't young and understanding addiction and recovery and the processes around that. So, um, I'd, uh, my sister had eventually reached out for help, and my dad didn't know about it, and my mom did, and, um, I'd managed to get into a rather reputable outpatient program, um, which still runs up in Cape Town. And I'd said to the guy, and I said, look, you know, my sister, um, you know, on an outpatient basis, she can't afford an inpatient because of the children and because of various other reasons. Um, the ability to manage that outpatient program structure depends on a regular testing process for her um because in spite of herself, she needed a safety net, and that messed that up big time. You know, so I felt a large degree of resentment within that space, you know, when I had to sit and choose a casket with my dad um and tell him, you know, my sister's body is not being released because of the toxicology testing that was taking place and explain these kind of processes. Um, you know, the word said that we, we should, when we have these like points of crossing over and moving over, that we should build an Ebenezer, you know, put a power or marking space into that. Um, and we put it not there for condemnation and not for an ability to um, you know, remind ourselves necessarily of the pain or the shame, but it's that it's that point of like, hey, let's keep this fresh in our minds from whence we came, and let's keep, you know, the redemption, you know, fresh in our minds, and let's keep, you know, the blood of the lamb and the process of what happened within that fresh in our minds. And if we are going to be doing discipleship, we need to keep it really sweet and to the point and make sure it's not just the sinner's prayer and let's move on and give it to the guys to run.

We need to have a good solid discipleship process of how we raise these guys up in recovery, in restoration, in healing, in equipping, and etc., that goes with it, because otherwise they're not going to make disciples. Yeah, they're going to rely on the support group to be able to do it or like coaches or recovery or rehabs. But actually, at the end of the day, every person that's coming into recovery from a Christ-centered process in my mind should be trained up how to be a disciple, and theoretically he should then go and find 12.

Yeah. And those 12 should find 12, because otherwise, what again is the point of Ezekiel 37? It's like, you know, we prophesy to the breath and raise up an army, you know, and if we just like, well, thanks for my recovery, you know, I'll come into the rooms and I'll do this and like, hallelujah, and I'll become like a sponsor with all due respect, like I'm, you know, and I'm a good sponsor. I got like 12 guys that are like, you know, when does that shift?

You know, when does that shift from a recovery perspective?

Yeah, that's good. Yeah, it, we have to get like a little clip like, you know, desperate to make these changes, to bring the change, because we will never change our communities, you know, unless we get that culture shift and unless we can have a deliberate kind of understanding of, you know, go and make disciples.

Yeah. I love, I love everything I'm hearing here, Leon. You know, as a guy who's in gaming space, I'm sure a lot of this resonates with you as well, man.

Oh, yeah. Absolutely. And uh, I was loving the using the Ebenezer image, which is one that I actually have in my stream. I've got a whole bunch of, you know, emotes that are connected with Ebenezer, but most people just think in the US Scrooge. They don't know that the word means stone of help.

And I just love that image because the stone of help is what you erect when God has brought you through something. And it's thus far, God has brought me. And so that image just totally resonates for me because we forget that he's brought us this far because we're looking at how far we still have to go.

And in the gaming space, there's a lot of people that they doubt themselves in a lot of ways and they put themselves down and they couch things because when they go into the toxic areas in the gaming space, they get beat up for being open and honest and transparent and sharing things. And when they make mistakes, they want to doubt themselves. And I just try to remind them like, you're on a journey. You've made it this far. Keep on the journey. Don't give up and don't downplay yourself. It is today is the day in front of you. You've made it this far. Where are you moving forward from that? So that, um, all the stuff you're talking about, yeah, I totally love that. I was just commenting when we were watching your video earlier about how we've had conversations with other places who do recovery stuff and we talk about we want to help digitally, and they're like, "No, you got to meet in person." And we're like, but their addiction is digital, and we need to meet them where they are. And they want help. And so I'm just so excited that uh, that you guys are seeing that need and that it took someone outside of the US to help us be able to reach a need that that uh, we definitely see when we're out there ministering to people.

Yeah. Yeah. I think that, you know, the reality, if we take that, you know, that word addicted, and we trace it down to the root, the root word of being wholly devoted, you know, to and wholly devoted upon, like as for the house of Stephanas, as they dedicated themselves to the ministry of the saints, and that is the reality of like actually what we got, you know, what we got to do. I mean, we're working quite a lot in the kind of development space at the moment of trying to create that an online kind of uh community in

In a manner that is all like naturally treatment related, um, which I guess is creating a dependency within that space. So if you look from a gaming perspective, somebody that's in recovery from gaming, the knowledge that they've achieved through their experiences, they've achieved so that yeah, they can go out and everyone of us is in our own mission field. And if that happens to be gaming, you know, at the end of the day, that's here to stay in one form or another.

We can't create a support structure to sit in a deviation because he does say at the end of time he's still going to measure us and you know shift us from goats and sheep and and what we have not done unto the least of these. Yeah, we have done unto him. And the reality for me is that if we can't create that safety net and use those experiences in that space in a way that makes them dependent upon God and dependent upon our redeemer, dependent on about my responsibility to go and make disciples, I reckon we've missed the opportunity.

Wow. Yeah, very true. You know, I do not want to be guilty of missing any opportunities. And I, the Church Digital, we've loved partnering with Project Exodus. Um, one of the things that I love about Project Exodus is that there's there's some heft, there's some weight to getting trained, to getting certified. Like it's stretching our team to go through the process. It's not, you know what, I I kind of joke sometimes leading a small groups like if you can cook a seven layer bean dip and press play on a VCR, you can lead a group. Uh, and uh, but what what I've seen out of Project Exodus is anything but that. It's it's been a very um, it's I'm I'm saying the word trying and and I mean this in a positive way. It's been challenging for our lead, for our leaders to go through it, to process, to to own the material and and what's happening on the flip side of that is they're coming out a, they're coming out better individuals and b, they're going to come out better relational leaders after going through such such a rich onboarding process. And so um, you know to be honest we've talked about is this the right thing is it not the right thing and and and I think that uh, you know project exists we keep keep coming back to you know all this effort to to get on boarded, to get our people trained in the system it's actually going to make the the process the groups it's going to make things the culture that much better you know because in the end for us the thing the reason we went with project exodus was I wanted to create not just a groups program. I I wanted I wanted there to be a culture of recovery and and as rich and as thick as as you are challenging our leaders right now through Project Exodus, you're you're helping us take that step in in creating that culture. It's it's been really a good process.

Yeah, there's a great underpinning concept because how wonderful would it be if we could just online everybody, on board everybody, and make it as as as quick as we we like it to be. Oh, wait, hang on. That's a definition of addiction, isn't it? Of like instant gratification. But on the back end of that, sorry Jeff, just just giving you a bit of an elbow in the ribs there. But there's there's a clean line on it as well. It says that which we get too easily we esteem too lightly.

That that we get too easily, we esteem too lightly. There has to be value in it. There has to be a depth of like experiential space of what revelation did I come to? What learning did I come to? What changed within me in doing the training and doing the process. It's not just an equipping so I can apply it. It's it's about how do we bring that healing and restorative space together and that's what makes it work. Yeah, otherwise, we can just run a three-month course and and you know, wash and rinse and just keep going within that kind of space. But actually, we want the people at the end of that to be able to be go and make disciples.

I love that. We want that space for the guys to say, "Hey, listen. You're going to do this course. Yeah, you can do it in 40 hours, but wait till what happens after the 40 hours when you start looking at the things that you got to look at yourself to be able to make those kind of changes because only then does it then fit into the gaming like perspective or into the digital church perspective or into those kind of areas. Um and and you know we we don't expect um a quick easy turnaround in it. We want something that's got depth, that's lasting within the process. We're working with a with a group um one of the guys we we work with today. We've been working for two years. Um and only today like he's turn like I I this has to be part of the discipleship program and they've got 400 plus churches. So, you know, we're excited that we're going to go through this and I think they understand that it's not going to it's it's going to be a simple process but not an easy one.

Yeah, and it it it follows the post of the equipping. Yeah, it's an interesting distinction. Simple but not easy. Yeah, yeah. I I like that. I don't think I ever heard that. Sorry to interrupt, but I don't think I'd ever heard that that separation before.

Yeah. Um so, Conrad, man, thank you very much uh for spending time. Uh we're going to be rolling out. Stacy will be on here in a little bit. Uh she's been leading out the the the care and the recovery. um momentum and and so but we're going to be rolling those groups out in in early 26. But Conrad, thank you for for joining us. It was a pleasure to have you on the conference earlier this year. It was a pleasure to work with Project Exodus and and thank you for doing what you're doing for the kingdom.

Great, thanks, guys. Look forward to to getting in touch and yeah, let's let's make let's make a difference.

Amen. All right, Conrad Cooper. Um very very excited. Glad he glad he can make it on. There was some time zone um shuffle issues, confusion, and so but glad to get him on.

Um so we're we're a little behind schedule, which is fine. Um but uh Leighton and it's all been I mean anytime I do this, it's just it it's come and go. It's it's like the 12-hour open house. People just come and go as they want. Um, Leighton, I do want to want to hand it over to you. Okay, to you. Um, and give you an opportunity to talk. Now, it's funny as I'm doing this, I'm staring at my huh. I didn't actually code a scene for you to do this. Uh, that's embarrassing on on my part. I'll I'll fake it. I've got a scene that's not involving me. Uh, and and I'll have to I'll have to move you in real time, but I do want to give it over over to you. Um, and and I just would say, Leighton, um, you know, we were going to do Dalton's keynote, uh, but I'm I'm fine not doing Dalton's keynote and and just rolling with you for for an hour. What what would you prefer?

Uh, I did I did see that Jose was trying to get on earlier and said he could not get in. So I Jose had tech with so I don't know if he shows up later. I think he's I think he gave up for some reason. He just couldn't couldn't figure it out.

Okay. So uh well let's see. Stacy will be here 3:15. So I do have about an hour. Uh and I did want to talk about the the conference that we had earlier. all of like there's a whole bunch like that I could absolutely talk about. So maybe why don't we give you an hour and and take to take the 3:15 Eastern.

Okay, that works. Sounds good.

So I'm going to push a button and then have to move some stuff around. But Leighton, I may I give it to you. Yeah, just give me a second to pull up so I've got a screen that I can see any chat that that does come in if there's any questions. So perfect. All right. All right. Thanks, man. Here you go. Absolutely. All right. So, I'm just on one side, which is fine. I'm used to putting stuff on the side of me and uh all surrounded and I don't usually take up the big screen, but oh, there you are. You're making it bigger. You put me in the middle. There we go. There we go. Doing everything on the fly. Love it, Jeff. Uh hopefully I stay the whole time. We've I've been in and out a couple of of connections and I know you've had that. So, we'll just see how all of that works out.

But I did not expect myself to be doing ministry here. And that's that's one of the things I want to really emphasize to anybody that is feeling a nudge in the direction of doing digital ministry because and I and I'm working on writing this up at some point. I've got a a rough draft together of just kind of talking about how did I end up in the space that I am doing digital ministry and it and it really is a funny thing. It goes back to Katrina. So, some people might think, oh, well, it would be co no, it's Hurricane Katrina. I was in the Dallas area and working at a church and I was supposed to be doing an internship there and bringing in people into doing discipleship. That's what I was supposed to be doing. And what happened is we had 500,000 people displaced from Katrina into our county. So it wasn't even Dallas County. It was a county north of Dallas. 500,000 people that were displaced. And I suddenly was in charge of our church's operations to respond to missions and missions in our neighborhood and connect across the country with my denomination and connect across the city with other people that were doing things. And I had no idea how to do a website, but that's what I needed to do is have a website. and our HR person, uh, I had already been trying to get some information on because I wanted to put some stuff on the website and she said, "I'll get with you. I'll get with you. I'll get with you." And I could never get with her. So, I'm an open door kind of person. Like even even back there, if you look in the back of the room, the door's open so that anybody can walk in and interrupt me at any time. I do not close the door. I shut my door and this is before Google and I had no computer training. every I you know in seminary I'm sitting there and I'm just going all right I got to teach myself HTML coding so I I this is the way that my tech skills are. I don't find the best way I find something that works and I I just open it up I look at what's there I see the code I make a change in the code I see what happens I make a a fake page it's not live yet and I start playing with it and I get to the end of the and now I can do a website. And that began my journey of moving into digital spaces. But my journey was always around being in a physical church and helping to connect with the people in my community. And I love connecting with people in community. I I'm trying to remember who said it earlier uh in one of the conversations. It was community is over content. It was a Marcus battle. That's what it was. Community over content and I just my brain went instantly to the greater than sign that con that community is greater than content and that's absolutely the way I feel about everything. It's why at times it takes me a long time to figure out am I going to create content in any way. So God has to keep moving me slowly sometimes and sometimes he tells me exactly where to go and I go nah I don't think that's the the place I should be. But I didn't plan on ending up in gaming. I find it hilarious that I am spending time in gaming. It's like I've moved away from gaming. I followed the mantra of you've got to grow up at some time and and get away from it. I say that and then and then I can just show you I've got this Xbox controller. Whoops. And I dropped the other one. Well, anyway, that's how clumsy I am with games. So, why would anyone want to watch me? That's that's the thing.

And why did we get to where we are? Like, I can't like if you guys who are listening to this had any idea. And Jason Morris was talking about this earlier.

The places that we are right now with the church digital, he was talking globally and the number of people that we have globally where we are.

We were not even a year ago talking about doing a gaming summit and we were we were just talking about doing our first conference. That was it. Let's let's try that. Let's let's move in that direction. We need to we have people coming to us asking for information. We need to do a summit to bring people together. We'll do our first conference. We'll bring people together and we'll be able to share and help people.

And that's where we were at. That's what we were trying to do. We were moving into some things. We were talking EDM, equipping digital missionaries. We knew that coming after Lucan Congress. We knew that was a place we needed to go, which really is something I've been super excited about that shift that we've made, that iteration of where we are, that cutting edge thing that what we're doing.

But I I didn't plan on being in gaming. I had no thoughts of being in gaming. And yet that's where God has now firmly placed me.

And when we were talking earlier about the funding, hey, you know, we had all kinds of numbers running down below. Jeff's talked about that earlier. I'm a horrible pitch guy. Jeff told me come on here and pitch myself and tell you where you can all find me. The easiest way is just uh latentthechurch.digital if you want to email me.

But if you if you wanted my info, it's Reliant Organization is uh where I'm doing funding as a missionary. And I'll talk about that maybe in the coming hour at some point.

But I found myself in in COVID sitting home and watching a friend of mine, a pastor across town who was a Twitch streamer. Some of you go back and watch the podcast episodes that we have, Pastor Brock VR.

And I now have a VR headset back here that I got last year for our VR conference. So, thank Pastor Brock VR for the fact that I'm here. That's what I just tell everybody. Thank Pastor Brock VR and Alice in the Palace. Without those two individuals, I wouldn't be here. And I'll throw one more in there, Mark Lutz as well.

If if those three people, one, Pastor Brock getting me exposed to gaming ministry where I was in a pastor group with him and we would we would sit and talk about what we're doing in ministry. We talk about life. We would check in. We we would say this is a John 17:23 group. So, anybody that knows what those are, it is sharing life. You share your story. Then you uh share scripture. We're not teaching. This is just, hey, what is the Holy Spirit saying through this passage? We spend time in prayer for one another and we check in. How's life going? So, we'd been in a group for a while. He was across town and and he kept talking about going into VR ministry and evangelizing.

And I thought, "Yeah, great for you. You're a young guy. You you like that. That's that sounds horrible. Why would anyone ever want to do that? Uh, I don't want to put a VR headset on. I don't want to go up to strangers and evangelize. I mean, I'm fine going up to strangers and having a conversation, but I I've always struggled to turn the conversation to talk about Jesus.

And always feels disingenuous to me to just walk up to a stranger and say, "Well, this is my impression of an old comedian." So, if you know it, you know it, and if you don't, you don't. Have you heard the word of the Lord? And and that's how they say said it, which I always thought was hilarious. Uh, but they're poking fun of that person that goes knocking on doors.

And people don't want the person coming and knocking on doors. But in VR chat, people want a conversation. And so when he would go in and he'd have conversations with people, he'd just go up and he'd ask them, "So, what do you think the meaning of life is?" Or he'd ask, "What do you think beauty is?" Or he'd start with something like that and then lead into a deeper conversations cuz people were really hungry. and he would share these stories with me all the time about doing those things.

And then I'm sitting there watching him. And one of the things that Twitch does, which by the way, I always teased my kids when they were in the house of why would you watch Twitch? Why would you want to watch anybody play video games? And if that's your thought, you don't understand Twitch. If you just want to watch somebody play video games and you're just trying to figure out how to to get to the quest and and find the secret thing you can't find, you go to YouTube and you fast forward through the videos or you watch the short clips that will just give that to you. And they're better better quality, polished, all of that stuff. They're cut, they're edited. You don't go to Twitch just to watch people play video games. You go to be part of the community there.

You get to participate in what's happening in a level of of chat. So, I know I was trying to pull up the chat here a second and it doesn't look like it's caught up of where it should be uh on my phone. So, I have no idea if anyone's in the chat. Sorry. Which is what I love doing is is connecting with chat. But maybe I'll try it again in a minute.

But the reality is that I didn't know what I didn't know. And so if you don't know anything about Twitch, I'm not saying that's the platform that God is going to put you in, but if you don't know anything about it, then maybe if a person is sharing with you and this I would let me put a plug in here for a minute. If you are feeling called to any place in digital spaces and you're feeling God calling you and you go to your pastor and your pastor says, "No, you need people to meet physically." then your pastor doesn't get it and you need to find someone else that can. And what I began to see when I was starting to watch Twitch, I wasn't I wasn't streaming. I had no plans to stream.

My friend kept telling people to follow me because go follow him. He's going to be a streamer. And I'm like, "No, why would anyone want to watch me? I have no plans to do this whatsoever. I have no plans to be a streamer." I mean, yes, I was streaming my church service 10 years before COVID, but that was to reach the people that were sick and shutins and my snowbirds.

So, I wasn't seeing the mission field. COVID did is help me see the mission field. What COVID did is help me see that God was already at work here and that he was, as we've been praying at 10:02 every day, that God was sending out workers into the harvest because the harvest is plentiful and the workers are few. So I started, you know, spending time watching other people, seeing people that were lost and lonely, feeling they were alone, youth pastors, other pastors, sometimes just individuals who were going to their church and saying, "I think God's calling me in this space." And then their church pastor would, if they were in any way encouraging, say, "Well, that's nice that you think that, but we need a tech person in the back." So since you have tech skills, could you help mount, you know, do the soundboard?

That would be the amount of encouragement they'd get or they'd get told, "No, that's not real ministry. Only real ministry happens online." I like challenging that.

And I'm a little aggressive. Jeff Jeff is not as as uh Jeff has been doing this for longer. So uh I like to challenge a little bit more, especially in the church. And maybe being a pastor and a senior pastor for many years gives me a little bit more brashness that like I ain't got time for you.

If if if you if you don't see that ministry can happen online, you're missing it. So I I'll just move on to someone else that's already asking questions that God's leading that way.

But think about anything that people thought at once was not going to be the case. That oh, you couldn't find a dating app. You why would you date online? You just go down to the to you to work, to the library, to church, to to school, uh the to the to the restaurant, and that's where you meet people. You go down to the bar, whatever it is, that's that's where you're going to meet people, and that's where you'll find someone to date.

And it wasn't working for a lot of people, and they couldn't filter out the people that they didn't want to waste their time on. So, someone came up with the first dating app. I don't know which dating app it was. And yeah, there's a lot of superficialness on a lot of that stuff, but I know plenty of people that have met online and they built a relationship to start with online and they went on dates.

And yeah, some of these people um they they didn't know each other until close to the wedding. They they had or I shouldn't say they never met each other in person until close to the wedding, depending on where they lived.

But then I got to thinking about that and that's not a whole lot different than if you go back to the Old West where people would put an ad in the paper and they'd put it in a Boston newspaper or a St. Louis newspaper and they would ask for women to correspond with them and they would correspond for a while and then the wife to be would get in a carriage and ride out to the west to meet someone.

So online dating is only an innovation that took something that already existed and moved it into digital space. And then you could even go further with building community. People will talk about you can't build community online. Well, I'll tell you what, gaming community is already a community because you enjoy something together.

Now, the fascinating thing to me is there are communities within communities on Twitch. I cannot break into some of those communities for two reasons. One, I'm not good at playing first-person shooter. I'll just pick on that category. I'm not good at playing first-person shooter. And second, I'm not interested in first-person shooter, so I won't hang out in those communities to watch the first-person shooter, play a bunch of games.

So, I missed the mark because of a lack of interest and also a lack of of exposure and skill set and all of that, but that means someone else is supposed to reach that. We're talking earlier about niching down uh into the market that that you are supposed to reach and I keep trying to find myself doing that.

And we were talking about the the podcast network that's coming out. So, I'm just going to pivot for a minute. Like, this is what I do on my stream is I will be reading the Bible. Uh, that's my primary thing that I do on Twitch, which to go back to, my friend kept telling me and telling everyone to follow me.

And this is how I listen to the Holy Spirit at times when I felt the Holy Spirit saying, "Maybe you should do that." I I and my and my people that were following me who I'd never streamed before kept saying, "When are you going to stream?" And I I got a new position at a new church and I said, "Fine, I'll go online. I'll do sermon prep." that will show everybody that there's no interest in anybody watching me do anything.

Like, why would you want to watch sermon prep? So, I streamed sermon prep every Friday. And all of a sudden, people were asking great questions and I did that for several months and they started asking about, "Do you have a read a Bible in a year plan?" And then they asked, "Can you do that on stream?" And I was like, "I guess." I'd never thought about doing that on stream. And now I can't imagine my life four years later without doing that on stream on a weekly basis of going online of reading the Bible and having people come in and say, "Hey, I've got this question about that. Hey, I need prayer about this. Hey, whatever it is." So, that's that's kind of the wrap-up of that. But I didn't see myself doing that.

And as the church digital has had podcasts for a long time and we've had a lot of different topics and a lot of people on and I've been on a couple of times just in panel discussions mostly or when we did a little series on gaming a couple of years ago we had some friends on and we did that and that was fun. I just and I binge podcasts. I mean, if you if you want to know some niche podcast out there in the realm of things that are on the church um in areas around uh supernatural realm of the Nephilim and those kinds of things, I got a handful of podcast. If you want to know about marriage, I got a handful of podcasts that or at least one that I listen to and then I just branch off from there on anything that has Jewish basis to help me understand the Old Testament better. I dive into those. I binge those and I listen to those and and I'm like, well, what do I have to add to the conversation?

I I didn't see myself as having anything to add to the conversation. But I kept hanging out with the gaming people because that's where God put me and that's where I am. And so it was so fascinating at times to start to have conversations with different people that are in the space and what's going on and then realize, you know what, I don't have to be the same as everybody else.

Now, I never tried to be the same as everybody else. I mean, obviously I wear flat caps and I don't care if anyone else does. And in fact, my stream teases me about the fact that we should get everyone a flat cap. And I'm like, "No, no, they're mine. You can't have them. They're all here. They're mine. You don't get any." So, I do I do uh enjoy though when my friends come on the podcast with me and they wear a flat cap just to say, "Hey, I've got one." And uh and and they celebrate me in that way.

But the podcast was not even a thought a year ago when we were doing Giving Tuesday last year. We weren't I wasn't thinking about doing a podcast. Why would I want to do a podcast? But to go back to what I was saying to begin with, I kept seeing a number of people who were in the space who did not feel they were they were supported. And that is my biggest thing is I want to like I I I have on my my Discord server. I don't know if anyone's ever read my little thing that says, "Hey, you know, a little bit about you. Let me go click on your icon on Discord and read it, but I put it in there anyway because I think it's funny. Is Barnabas plus Theophilos here for you?" So if you need encouragement, I'm here for you. And and Theophilos, if you don't know, is a lover of God. So, Barnabas means son of encouragement. I love what words mean. You come watch my stream for a while and you will be able to see uh all kinds of conversation or all kinds of we'll go down the rabbit trail of looking up what names mean and and what's going on with that. So, I didn't plan on doing a podcast, but I kept feeling the need to encourage people.

And what I what I finally came to I don't know where I don't know how the conversation began honestly but I think it was around the fact that the church digital we had set up for when we were doing that gaming uh area uh and we were doing all of the uh podcast with the gamers a couple of years ago. We started a Twitch channel. We hadn't done much with it for about a year. Since I was focusing on gaming, it was, "Hey, we're going to give you the church.digital, which plenty of you who are watching." Thank you. Thank you all of you who are hanging out there. Let me just see if there's anything in the chat over there. Uh, it doesn't look like it, but we had a bunch of people earlier who were hanging out watching.

So, as I was doing uh already ministry, it's like, "Hey, do you want to do something with that channel? Is there something we could do?" And I thought, "Yeah, I could bring on all of my friends who are Christians, who are in the space, who are trying to reach people with the gospel, and I call them digital missionaries. I don't care what they call themselves. uh I can bring them on to tell their stories so that someone new who was getting started in digital ministry and spec specifically gaming ministry, but anybody getting started in digital ministry could be able to go share an episode with their parents if they're young because their parents might not believe this is a valid thing that you could do or their church, their pastor or anyone else that they need to say, "Hey, what God's calling me to is valid. here's someone else doing exactly what God's calling me to do. That's that's what my thought was. That was the first part is how do I help someone new get started and be able to take and encou get encouragement from their tribe, their supporters who would support them if they knew God was calling them to that. How do I help them do that? That was part of the thought there. So, it was going to be the Gaming Outpost podcast where we're going to talk to Twitch streamers and we're going to talk about what are they doing.

And as I thought about those people, I the other thing I thought is I want to bring on my friends who I've met in this space and I want to bring them on to talk about how did they get started? What is God doing in their lives? How did they make the shift? if they didn't start out as being intentional Christian, an intentional missionary, if they didn't start out that way, uh when was the shift, how did that shift come about? And and what obstacles have they had to overcome as being a Christian in that space in a gaming space that at times is really toxic and then talk about that and what about the blessings that they've experienced and all of those things.

So there was a way of I wanted to celebrate my friends and validate what they were doing. And I think I was wanting to celebrate more was my thinking of just I want to celebrate what you're doing because I think what you're doing is fantastic and I love you and I love what God is up to in your life and on in your community. And then I began to hear just how excited people got that they got to be on my podcast. And I'm thinking I didn't expect that. I'm I'm the one trying to bring bring you on because I want to celebrate you and you're thinking that by being on my podcast and I had I remember one in particular and this one surprised me.

So, if you go back to the podcast uh you'll find one uh back there and oh my goodness, my brain is suddenly blanking because I know his old name and that's what's sticking in my head. Um he he he uh uh is the one who founded uh BMG. Big Unk. Big Unk. That's what it is. I had his old name in my head. Uh Big Unk. I'd been watching him do things and he had been a streamer for a while and God got a hold of him and said, "Are you doing this for your own glory or my own glory?" And he's got a hat collection that rivals Well, it's better than mine. It's bigger than mine. It's not very many flat caps, but it's it's big. And he has a shoe collection, too. Uh, so God got a hold of him and he and his wife were praying about this and he changed his name and he changed his focus and he was like, I may lose my entire community and I may have to start over, but it doesn't matter cuz God is calling me to do this. And I'd been watching him for a while and what God was doing with and through him in in the space and I was like I am so excited to have him on because I think he is one of the cutting edge people out there. One of the people God is clearly using. But what I didn't know is when I invited him on, he was so excited like, "Hey, I feel validated now that God is using me." And which was true. I was validating what God was doing, but I didn't think he needed me to do that. like I already saw that and so that's a part of what that podcast is.

So we'll be playing with it. We're going to rebrand it. It was called the Gaming Outpost podcast and well it's not the greatest name. It was a more of a name that was internal within the church digital that made sense of oh well you're overseeing the gaming outpost and you're doing a podcast. Well there you go. There's the name. Not a lot of creative thought into it. it was clear what it was internally, but externally if you're a person working in a church and you're you're thinking you might be called to be a digital missionary, how why would you listen to that? And if you are a gamer, uh why would you listen to it? So, it was like, and if you're a pastor, uh someone recommends you go listen to it, why would you?

So, we're going to work on coming up with a name. I've got a few ideas. We're going to do some new branding. I've got three episodes lined up. One will actually be tomorrow. Uh that will be uh TC Warrior and then on the 9th will be Anukica's Cakery. Yes, Anukica's Cakery. This is one of the things that's really cool. So, if another thing you don't know in Twitch, there's cooking channels and there are several people that are bakers on there and Anukica's is one of those. Um, hit start the uh, is it not up right now? I I'm not by that computer. It's upstairs. So, I'm not able to change it if it's not up over Yeah, Anukica's the best. That's what you're asking, Chino. Uh, and then, uh, who's the third one? Who's the third one? Oh, uh, Nightaber. Nightaber will be on the 15th.

So, I'll have all of those posted and and get those up for people to be able to Oh, no. So, you're just naming it. Okay. Okay. I got you. Uh, so that's those are some of my friends that I'm going to have on. Uh, I'm also on a couple other people's podcasts when they invite me on, which is super fun. And there'll be some more podcasts as we're doing the gaming or the sorry, the the redo of the podcast network. I will also do some other podcasts that won't necessarily be focused on gaming.

So, I will do some other podcasts. We'll figure those out. Uh where I'll come in with a topic for a season and talk about things because one of the other things I'm passionate about is a couple areas where I see the physical church. It has a gap. There's a gap between the physical church and staying connected with people. And this is actually one of the names I'm thinking around with. the idea of uh of a podcast is uh is is connected with that. So when kids go off to college, they have a hard time staying connected. And I think there's ways you could if you move those college or those high school kids into an asynchronous community over the next four to five years as they go off to college, they don't lose their faith community. they stay connected no matter where they move, whether they're in college or not in college and whether they're in person or not in person.

See, this is the problem we sometimes have when we have a physical church and we think physical first. We don't let uh our our minds be creative. And so, why not? And I I'm trying to solve this problem because this is the problem I saw with my own kids. They went off to college and they lost their faith community. And my daughter went to a Christian college. So they required her to go to chapel, so she did. But it really wasn't a faith community. It was a bunch of students sitting in there having worship and going on with their lives. So sure, she went to chapel and sure she went to church on Sunday, but it wasn't the same that she had. And then she's never found it since then. And my boys went off to school and well, whatever reason, uh it didn't turn out that they ended up finding a church, going to a church or any of that. and they lost their faith community and they've never went to go look for one. So, how do we stop that? We make it so they don't lose their faith community. That's that's one of the things. So, I'm going to be doing some blogging in the next year. I wasn't thinking about blogging a year ago.

I did blogging back in 2006 and '78 for my denomination. I blogged for about two, two and a half years. Did a lot of posts talking about stuff and it's like, okay, I need to get back into that. Which is like, God, what are you doing on this journey? Like, what are you doing on this journey with me? Which goes back to, you know, being part of the Church Digital with people who are innovators. And I've always loved connecting people. So when Jeff was talking about earlier, that I, you know, like, so for a while my title was Relationship Director, which, okay, what does that really mean? Except the subtitle or the acronym for it or the moniker or catchphrase was "Have you met Ted?"

So my job was to sit down with people that were new in the community, which is really hard to do anymore. We're growing so fast, and find out what are you doing and where are you at and connect you with other people. I still love doing that and I won't stop doing that. That's just naturally how God has made me. So I get excited when other people get ahold of me and say, "Hey, I'm looking for this," and I will say, "Oh, do you know this person over here? Let me connect you with this person." And that might be my work is done and I'm never involved in the ministry and I don't care. I helped connect someone to someone else that needed to have that connection and needed to do ministry side by side.

So when we're talking about wearing a whole bunch of different hats, I work with a number of ministries. I am still connected with Resourcing Now, that brings resources, Christian literature, Bibles to the Caribbean, mostly Central America, a little bit of South America, and we've started to go—they've started to go to Africa. I was on the board for years. Now I'm just a supporter of theirs, and I manage the Full Circle Beans, uh, not Spotify, Shopify account. Because, uh, my kids were doing selling soap and I said, "Hey, we're trying to do this. Can you help me set it up for them?" And now I'm still the manager of the Shopify account. So if you want some good coffee, and every time you buy a bag of coffee you will send a Bible to someone who doesn't have one, go check out Full Circle Beans.

Um, so like, there's too many things. I mentioned John 17:23 groups. I do that. I'm connected with Nerd Culture Ministry Summit. We're going to be partnering with them. If you don't know Nerd Culture Ministry Summit, you are into gaming, you're into board gaming, you're into cards, uh, any of those things that are super nerdy, and often the church says, "Don't bring those in. Keep your D&D shirt out of here. Keep your Pokémon away," uh, whatever that may be. Well, you want to check out Nerd Culture Ministry Summit. And they're going to be in April in Garden of the Gods. And those guys are fantastic. Love them. But the Church Digital is going to be a sponsor there this year. So come check them out. It's going to be fun.

I also was at Reach Conference in Orlando with a bunch of Twitch streamers who are coming together and figuring out what can God do in the space. And I was at Hopeful Disasters, uh, like, you know, this is what I have. So there's Hopeful Disasters, there's Nerd Culture Ministry Summit, there's Reach Conference, there's a whole bunch of other ministries and streamers that I know. Uh, I love being that connector, adding to what other people are doing, seeing what God is up to in the space.

So my brain—you're probably trying to follow this conversation. You're like, "Do you have notes on this? I could not figure out what you were doing and where you were going." And that's okay, because it's going to go wherever God leads the conversation.

So the podcast is something like we were talking earlier. I'm about episode 35. That seems amazing to me. I don't know if you know, I'm trying to think of the status. The average podcast doesn't make it to episode 10. So I told Andy when we were going to do this, I'm like, "Hey, I'm going to try this, and if I don't make it to episode 10, we're not going to post it on YouTube. We're going to wait. I'm going to get 10 episodes on Twitch."

By the way, the podcast is live on Twitch. So the podcast is designed to be live on Twitch, which means there's going to be a two to three hour conversation. I don't know how many podcasts are out there pushing the two and three-hour conversation limit very often. Maybe Joe Rogan would be one that does, but not many that I listen to go that long. Hour episodes are normal, half-hour episodes with many of them. But I'm pushing two to three hours because we're just going to go where the conversation goes. Talk about anything that's going on. See what God is up to in the space and celebrate what God has already done.

And so I actually had one podcast where I had my friends on there, and, uh, you—I'm just teasing you here. This is one thing I love doing is teasing about stuff—is Assassinator Steph and G Funk Railroad, who met for the first time at Reach Conference last year, and then they got married. Uh, they connected again over the year. It's a long story. Go watch the podcast, episode A and B, and I don't remember what number it is, probably around 30, maybe it's in the late 20s. If not, it was a five-hour podcast, and like, there's no fluff in there. There was no—we were talking the whole time about, I think, amazing things. And what I've got to get better at is cutting those down to give you clips, to give you teasers, to give you things that will be able to be pushed in front of other people. Like, "Oh, I'm not listening to a two-hour podcast. I just want the three to five-minute clip about what you're talking about in ministry and why it's valuable and why it's important."

Okay, so I've been talking about that for a while, but I want to step back for a second and talk about some impact stories, because these are my favorite. These honestly are my favorite, which is what I love asking people on the podcast. And I have not shared a lot of my own personal ones in the space. I've been trying to share those with my supporters as I've been trying to get funded with Reliant Organization to be a digital missionary, and I can talk about them in a little bit.

But as I've been in the space, the stories of life change are just amazing. And the other thing is it's not solo mission on Twitch. It's not a solo mission. I do not need to get selfish. The fact that you're watching other Twitch streamers—Twitch is a unique platform in which one of the things you do when you get done is you take your community to someone else and you bring them to that community.

So within the Reach Conference community, I go and I stream other people who are in Reach Conference who are partners in there. Uh, I'm hoping to be one again next year. So I will do that. The other thing is there's the Taco Network. We'll have Al Christian Ninja on here later talking with him, and we'll talk about Taco later. It's another group of Twitch streamers, and they could be in other platforms, but right now it's mostly Twitch streamers. And then there is Hopeful Disasters, which I mentioned, which is another group of Christian streamers in the space. And I'm part of Digital Creators for Christ, another group of Christian streamers in the space, and there's more. I could mention a bunch more that I know that are in the space.

And so they're trying to get together. They're trying to encourage one another. And when you get done, I take my community over there because, hey, I know you. I trust you. You are either family-friendly, you're Christian, whatever your community has set up. I know your standards, and I know when I bring my people over there that you're safe.

So we do this back and forth as we've been networking with others. And there didn't used to be a Christian moniker to find Christians. You had to kind of go for family-friendly and then find out if they were Christian or not.

So I'm going to drink a second. So one of my friends, uh, Ukulele for Worship, she, uh, well, I'm a mod for her, which means I'm in her channel to help make sure the standards are upheld and to do some other things in there. She had a person in her stream that was, um, having a bad day—is a mild way of saying it. And I was following along with a conversation, and they were just really, really down in the dumps, and they hadn't said too much in that channel other than, you know, a couple of comments here or there that were really, really negative.

And she was like, "I need to make sure that you go to a place and a person that will help take care of you." And so she came over to my stream, raided my stream, brought her there, and we stayed there with Sam, and we had a conversation. And Sam talked about—well, when she first got there, Sam said, "Hey, I'm not doing so good. I don't know if I'll make it through the day. In fact, I don't know if I want to make it through the day."

And I have on my stream the suicide hotline. Uh, I have all of that information. I also have the international list in case, you know, Sam really had. And we did at one point, when it was appropriate, ask if Sam had a plan or not. And did not—was just voicing the sorrow, the feelings there. And so, just if you're dealing with mental health, asking a person—just if you don't know this, asking a person if they have a plan to take their life when they mention something about wanting to take their life is not putting the idea in their head. It is finding out how serious they are. And then if they say yes, I do have a plan, then you follow up with that and you make sure they get help, and you don't leave that person.

Uh, Sam didn't have a plan. Uh, we found that out later. But when Sam first came in and just briefly spoke, one of the people on my stream said, "Hey, let's pray for Sam." And I said, "Sam, is it all right? We don't know you. Is it all right we do this here? We pray for you. Don't know where your faith is. Can we pray for you?" Sam was like, "Sure, you can do that."

And so about a half an hour later, Sam said something about, "Well, still not feeling good, but I'm feeling better." And then someone else in the stream said, "Can we pray for Sam?" And I'm like, "Yeah, absolutely. We can pray for Sam again. Sam, is that all right if we pray for you again?" And we prayed for Sam again. And about another half hour later—and see, this is here's one of the fun things on Twitch. People can come and hang out and say nothing for a long time, but when they feel safe, they will start to talk. And when they know that you're a safe place, they'll share a lot of things.

And so Sam began to share abuse and, uh, some problems that were going on in her life. And we talked back and forth, myself on stream like I am now, anybody that was in the chat adding comments—uh, a lot more that were in the chat than here—and I love the hearts that are going up. The impact on Sam's life has been tremendous. But in that moment, we didn't know it. None of us knew Sam. We didn't know where Sam was at geographically. We didn't know where Sam was at in her walk with the Lord, in even her understanding of Jesus or the gospel or anything.

So we worked to meet Sam where she was. And then over the next couple of weeks—because I didn't know if Sam was going to come back ever again. I didn't know if Sam was going to come back the next day. Well, Sam did come back the next day. And we started expanding that community of people that, hey, when I got done, I went over to someone else. I don't remember exactly who it was. I know one of those people that Sam is in the community with was Mother Goose and Assassinator Steph, who I mentioned earlier, and Ukulele for Worship.

There might be Mama Brick Builds. There might be another one or two that were just key and vital in her environment that we hung out with regularly with Sam.

Well, come to find out Sam is in a former Soviet block country. She grew up atheist. Maybe grandma had some faith. And that's about her knowledge, understanding of things, not knowing things.

And we keep spending time with Sam and we keep praying with Sam and Sam keeps coming and hanging out. And Sam is sharing like Sam's story is like you. If I were to tell you all the details of Sam's story, you would say, "You're making that up." It no one can have that many problems in their life.

No one can have that happen and then that happened and then that happened. And so we became a place of hope and safety for Sam.

And as the months went forward earlier this year, Sam had a third round of cancer that she was dealing with. And Sam was unable to make it to stream.

So Sam's friend, Lena, decided to use Sam's account and come and hang out and give us updates so that we knew what was going on with Sam.

And we got to know Lena a little bit. Now, Lena hasn't stuck around. Sam is trying to pursue Jesus the best she knows how. She's hanging out with Christians. She's hearing the Bible read. She's still struggling to understand a lot of things because it's foreign to everything that she grew up with.

Sam had been put on hospice care for a while following her surgery. There are some complications, things going on. And now Sam has come off of hospice care.

And we keep praying for Sam. Now, I don't know where that's going to end. And I don't know if I'll ever get to see Sam in person or if any of those streamers who were there for Sam will ever get to see her in person.

But Sam has taken step after step seeking after Jesus and following after Jesus and is in a much, much better place mentally and spiritually than she was before. Maybe not physically, but she is in a much better place. And Sam is so loved. And if you go listen to the podcast, Sam shows up regularly and we chat about it and there's updates on Sam as she was going through some of that stuff.

So I'm not sharing anything that hasn't already been shared in some ways, but I am so privileged and feel blessed to know Sam and to be a part of that.

Now, Sam is a big, big story and there's lots of moving pieces there. So I wanted to take time on that, but there's some other ones that are just kind of neat and you don't know how much you're part of it and how much other people are a part of it.

So there's another and I can't remember their name because they have not been around for a while. There was another streamer or not a streamer, another person in my stream that showed up who was a Muslim who lived in Spain.

Now, I'm in the US and I'm telling you two stories of two people that don't live in the US. I on my stream, I don't know if this is true for other people, I have more than thirty percent. So I would say one third of the people are outside of North America that watch me. That's that is the norm for me. If I get only down to a quarter, I feel like, oh, I didn't have a good day. I didn't have that many views. My views are very much global. And here's one thing. I'll just pause on this thought for a second that maybe you're not thinking about when we were talking about it not being safe in India earlier on this podcast here.

India may not be safe for everyone to be openly Christian. There are plenty of other places around the globe that are also not safe to be openly Christian.

And however, those countries that might close off anything that looks Christian, they're not thinking about closing down Twitch. Twitch is a gaming platform. Twitch is, they could see from their perspective, is pretty toxic. I would say they're, what I want to say, oh, my numbers are, I haven't looked at numbers in a while. I want to say one million people are probably watching Twitch right now.

And there are probably one hundred thousand different streams that are live right now. I would wager that not even one percent are Christian. So if it's one percent, that would be amazing.

I would love to get it to the point of, and I learned this from, uh, shoot, uh, not new thing, oh yeah, new thing. I learned this from New Thing. The goal to get saturation in a market is to get to sixteen percent.

So that's what I'm trying to think about is how can we get Twitch to sixteen percent Christian streamers? That's a whole different thought, excuse me, in the back of my head.

But if you're in Iran, the government's not shutting down Twitch because they don't think anything of it. You're in Russia, they're not shutting down Twitch to keep people from seeing anything Christian. You're in India, they're not shutting down Twitch. Saudi Arabia, whatever country is going to be hostile to the gospel, they're not thinking, "Let's shut down Twitch." So the gospel is being shared by myself and many of my friends, and we have gospel conversations with people in closed countries.

And even if they do not have a conversation with that person, because I don't always know where people are from. Not a lot of people will always tell you.

I'll just, I actually pulled up my last stream just so I could actually tell you some stats from my stream. So United States number one, Canada number two, New Zealand number three.

Okay, New Zealand, just to give you a heads up on how weird that is. New Zealand, New Zealand is going to be at like four or five in the morning when I'm streaming. It's, it can be really weird. No, is that right? No. Anyway, as sometimes I'm streaming, it's really weird hours. So New Zealand to be on there is not a normal thing.

Poland three percent, Sweden three percent. I've got a good representation in the Nordic countries for some reason. I have Nico the DNE, which is a seeker from Denmark who watches me regularly. He hasn't been around for about a month, but he's one of those regulars. He comes and goes. The Netherlands, Russia, Australia, Belgium, Czech Republic.

Those are the top countries that were watching me the last time that I went live. So it's fascinating how global you can be when you go to some place.

By the way, the gaming sphere, if you don't know this, the gaming sphere is a three hundred billion dollar a year industry. It is bigger than all sports, major sports leagues combined worldwide.

It's amazing what gaming is. And then the numbers of people that identify as a gamer. I don't remember all the full numbers on that, but of the billions of people that identify, ninety five percent of Gen Alpha say they're a gamer.

So if you're in a church and you're thinking gaming ministry is not a real thing, you don't have to believe it's a real thing. It is. It is. If there were, I think it's three point three billion. I don't remember the number exactly, but let's just round it off to three billion.

If there were three billion people that were on a continent and we'll just call that continent Twitch, would you say, "Sorry, we can't go to that continent. They have to come to us." That would be absurd. That would be absurd. We would not do that. Maybe at one point the church would have done that.

I remember, you know, doing my church history and people saying, "If God wanted to save the heathen, he'll save the heathen. We don't need to go to them." And at times, I think we have that same mentality that creeps in all the creeps into things where we don't go out to the people.

And I love the conversation earlier. Like I keep bringing in conversations from earlier of the passiveness of the go and the Great Commission. I like to translate it while going because it's just while you're going about life.

While you are going about life, this is what you are to do. You are to make disciples. While you are going, you are to teach while you're going.

So while I am going, and I'm going to say the last game I played, if you were here yesterday, I played Expedition 33. It's clear obscure Expedition 33.

My son recommended it to me and I started playing it. So while I am going into digital space into Twitch, I can talk about the gospel. I can talk about Jesus. I can bring him with me. And I didn't have a lot of people watching me. I tried a new game and didn't have a lot of people show up, but that's okay.

Maybe somebody will see it later. So that's one of the fun things I think about being in gaming is the global nature of it.

The aspect of being able to impact people that you don't know, people that you would, well, you would hope to see in person but may never see in person.

And another fun thing I want, if you're in a physical church, think about this for a minute and I was just in a, excuse me, I was just in a conversation and if you're in a physical church, one of the debates that you have at times is, well, how do we greet our visitors? How do we show hospitality? And yeah, I'm changing my voice is what I do when I'm streaming. How do we show hospitality to all of those people that are new and show them we love them and we really want them to stay?

Well, a news flash on that, they've already watched you online anymore these days, unless you have no online presence. So they're already going to know a bunch about you before they show up.

But as I've had those conversations, the thing is, well, we could have visitors stand and then we know they're visitors and then we can greet them. That will be a fun thing. Or let's have, oh, do I have one? Oh, my, no, these are just generic ones. All right. We could have a mug in the back and it'll have our logo on it and if they just come to the back after the service, we'll give them a mug with our logo. Then they'll remember this church and they'll come back. Or the most horrific thing to an introvert, we'll have them stand and we'll ask them their name and or the person next to him will report their name and we'll share all of that for everybody.

And then someone was sharing today they went to visit a church when they were on vacation and their kids and toss the mug out later.

Exactly. And toss the mug out later. They went to visit a church and their dad's a pastor. So they were going, "Dad, do what if they ask us to stand? We always hate when they ask us to stand." Well, this church went a step. They're like, "Do we have to stand?" He's like, "No, you can stay seated." Well, instead, this church did a parade.

This church had everyone parade up front where the elders were up front and so they could come up front and get introduced to the elders.

And he was like talking about that. And I said, "I think I would just parade out the back door." He's like, "What? Why would you do that?" He's always teasing me about my denomination. Like, "Why would why would you RCA you RCA people?" I'm like, "That's not RCA people. That's that's me protecting my family who are more introverted than I am. We're not parading upfront."

Um, this is all to go to the fact that we don't let people lurk in church to find out we're safe before we develop a relationship with them.

And in Twitch streaming, I've got a lot of lurkers. And they will just sit there and do and one listen. I, they think I'm entertaining. I think I'm entertaining. But I always tell people, I'm not here to entertain you. I'm here to entertain myself. I was always bored as a kid and so if my jokes aren't funny, if my voices aren't funny, that's okay.

You don't have to like them. I do and I'll keep doing them because they entertain myself. My, this is also an ongoing joke with my wife.

When I'll do something like that, she'll give me this look and I go, "I'm not here for your entertainment. I am here entertaining myself." So it's really hard to lurk physically.

It's not safe for many people, if not most. And that's what I'm saying is we've taken away the ability for someone to explore our church in a safe manner.

Now, if we have a digital presence, they can lurk by watching us online. And that's a great first step, but I have people who will lurk in my stream for months before they ever say anything.

And you know, I just was saying I had 2% from Russia. I have no idea who those people are, how that—wow, 2%—that might be one, two people, whatever percentage that works out to. I don't know. I had 143 views, 2%. Oh, that's seven people? No, is that seven or am I doing 20%? I don't know. I can't do math in my head. I do it on paper. So anyway, 2% of 143 is how many people from Russia?

I don't know which people are in Russia. They're probably lurkers. They're probably not saying anything. They're probably just listening and hanging out. It may not be a safe place for them to speak, or it might be English is a second language. They're not confident in being able to communicate the other way. It's so fascinating the number of ways in which we can do ministry with others online in the global space.

All right, so that's a whole bunch of what I've been doing. Like I said, ministering to people, shared a couple of stories. Oh, I don't think I finished a story on the Muslim from Spain. I got sidetracked. We call those rabbit trails on my stream, and we keep track of them, which is an inaccurate count, but it's fun to add to it.

Anyway, so the Muslim came in and had several different times. Probably came in my stream for about a month solid having conversations. Then their schedules changed and they said they were listening to me on the VODs later. So they weren't live, but they were listening. They were intrigued. My friend Nico the Dane was in there. So I'm having a stream. We're having a theological conversation with a seeker from Denmark, a Muslim from Spain, a couple of atheist friends who are in there, and a bunch of Christians. And so we're having conversations over several months. They—I think it was probably a week that the two of them were there regularly—and then I didn't see the guy from Spain for some time, and then he showed up. Was it last month? No, it was in September. He showed up in September. So this is all in last year. He showed up in September and he said, "Hey, I haven't got to see you streaming for a while. I'm so glad I caught you. I wanted to tell you I got baptized on Sunday." He said, "Listening to you, having conversations with you, I started having conversations with Christians that I know. I started going to a church, and I'm following Jesus."

So I may have never found the answer to that. This is one of those things we ask those questions about: "Do you know the result of it?" Well, I've got one person that was baptized. There we go. I've got one baptism that I know I contributed to. Now, I'm not the only one that contributed to that. I'm just a part of what God used to do that.

So in whatever way God used me to open his eyes to the possibility that, hey, I need to explore what the Bible actually says about Jesus, and I'm going to go investigate that, and then I'm going to find friends that I trust that I can do that, and then I'm going to seek out a church to do that, and then I found a church and now I'm going to be baptized. I mean, what a huge, huge thing to be a part of.

So I don't take credit for that. I took part in that. It was awesome.

Yeah, one baptism has been in a lot of churches these days.

Yeah, absolutely. It can be. But it's what can I measure? Whether he came back and ever told me the baptism, I still got to measure the gospel conversations that I had with him. And there were at least six or seven direct gospel conversations that I had with him. I have had dozens of gospel conversations with Nico, my friend, who is a seeker. And he is always cordial. He's always kind. He is always curious. And he has also started having conversations with—I don't know if it's a Lutheran church there in Denmark. I don't know if it's a bishop, the person he's talking with. That might be the right title. Excuse me a second. Like, Jeff, I do have a cough. I got the cough, I don't know, three weeks ago when I went to Reach Conference, came back with a cough. I did go get tested. I thought maybe I had strep throat. I didn't have that. Got tested for COVID. I didn't have that. And then I've been traveling since then. So it gets better, it gets worse. It's about the best it's been in a week. So that's a thankful thing. But back to what I was saying.

So there's so many things that God is up to. We need to measure what we can be faithful to. So I can be faithful to my input. I can be faithful to knowing how often I stream. I can be faithful to knowing I brought up the gospel and had conversations with people. I can be faithful to knowing I had DM conversations with people. I can be faithful to knowing that I made connections with someone that had—well, I do this regularly.

So the Church Digital does not fully have—and we were talking just before, earlier with Conrad, about recovery ministry. We don't fully have our own, but hopefully Disaster Do Community does have a porn addiction recovery group. I have sent plenty of people I run into with pornography addiction over to that group. I trust the people over there. I know them. I know their heart. I pray together and try to do that quarterly with Wolfler77, who's been on the podcast from over there. And it's just so good to be friends on mission. Like, I don't have to keep people in my kingdom. Like, hey, you've got to watch the Flat Cap stream and you've got to watch the Church Digital stream. It's like, if you watch it, great. I hope it's a blessing to you. And if you don't watch it, that's fine. There's a whole bunch of other friends I hope you watch. And I'm not good at plugging myself. Honestly, I'm not. I'm good at talking for a long time, as most pastors are, with no notes, just off the top of my head. Whatever God is leading me to, wherever God is going, whatever God is up to is amazing and fun. And I'll just share one other thing of how God—and I don't know how soon that I'll be jumped in here. We're about the time Stacy should be on. I don't know if Jeff and Stacy are going to hop in here soon or not, but I'll just leave with this, and I think I've told Jeff this before. I know I've said this a couple of times, and I started with this. I didn't plan on being here. I didn't plan on being a digital pastor. I had no thought of being a digital pastor. I have no training to be a digital pastor. I would say, hopefully, good skills in building relationships, and that's what I love doing. And so that's always been a key to what I've been doing. But Pastor Brock, who I was talking about, said, "Hey, you need to go have a conversation with Jeff," and we had a conversation, and I went, "I don't know why I was supposed to have a conversation with Jeff. I have no idea what that was about." And then probably three, four months later, after I had developed pastor groups for John 17 groups with the people I could find in Twitch that were streaming, Mark Lutz said, "Hey, you need to go have a conversation with Jeff." And I go, "I did." And he goes, "You need to have another one." And so I did, and it was like, okay, I still don't know what I'm supposed to be doing, but I'm gonna hang around for a while and see what God's up to over here. And then I got to Chesley, who was part of it for a while, and his course, where I met Demarcus. Demarcus is such a great guy. I am so glad he's finally able to move into a space of being active in the Church Digital. But I've been trying to get him in for—I don't know—three years since we did that course. I did that course with him and started getting active after that course, really in the community and just getting to know people. And Jeff and Chesley said, "Uh, hey, would you want to be our relationship director? Give it three months and make it what you want it to be." And I was like, I can try anything for three months. I mean, that's not going to cost me anything. And I can't believe I'm here. And now it's like, Jeff, I know we have conversations like, "Hey, this isn't where we're going," or "Hey, this isn't this," or "Hey, can you do more?" Like, man, God has blessed me to be able to be here. It's amazing that I am—I don't have my finances in order to be able to give as much as I want to the space, nor does the Church Digital have all of the funding to be able to pay me for my time or anybody else. But the vision and the mission and the spirit that—and the camaraderie, man, I'll take this over going back into a church and just being in a local church and then retiring in ten years.

I tell my wife all the time, I have not been as excited about ministry since I was in seminary and just seeing that God could use me. Like, I'm just loving what I'm doing. My wife can see it. She wishes the finances were there for the Church Digital and for our own. But yeah, it's going to take a whole lot for me to be able to walk away. In fact, I've had—I want to say—interviews with six churches in the last year. And I told them I can only give them twenty-five hours because I can't step away from the digital ministry God has me. And then they go in a different direction than me. So it's like, okay, God won't let me leave. So all right, welcome in, Jeff.

Yeah, that's amazing. You know, I forget—I forget that Pastor Brock's part of your story. I was in the background listening to you talk through, and I was like, "Oh, yeah, I love Pastor Brock. Miss him." But man, glad you as well.

Yeah, glad you're around. And man, Leon, it's been a lot of fun. You've been such a valuable part of the Church Digital. I mean, I hate to say in recent years, but I do remember the first conversation you and I had, and I too was like, "What, what just happened?" Like, it took a minute.

It didn't connect or gel.

Yeah, yeah. Part of the Church Digital itself was we were trying to experiment and figure out who we were. And so some of those early conversations with people—you know, like the align vision wasn't aligned on our side, on their side. Like, it just was messy.

There's much more clarity right now, and I love it. But man, thank you so much for the conversation. You know, in typical streamer fashion, you're not knocking it out. And so, man, I love you and appreciate you being on. Guys like Leighton are what we're trying to empower in their context. And so Leighton does not look like your typical streamer, but he understands that culture very well, and the ability for him to reach and engage and disciple people in that streaming, in that gaming space, is phenomenal.

And we've been with EDM—we've been growing people into that space. So Demarcus was not in the Twitch space to begin with, but Demarcus is now moving into that space. Jose, who was supposed to be on earlier, went through EDM, and he's moved into the Twitch space. He was also at Reach Conference with me. Got to meet him in person at Reach Conference, which was really cool. Him and his wife were there. And yeah, there's probably more that I'm missing, and I'm going to be disappointed that I forgot who else is in there. Matt—Matthew—who was in my EDM class is also looking at being a Twitch streamer and is in that space.

He shows up in my stream quite often. So we've got probably half a dozen who moved into being a Twitch streamer after being connected with the church digital.

No, very, very good. Um, it's an exciting season and guys like Leighton are who we're trying to empower and move forward with and helping them and equipping them and creating new and multiplying them towards that. Really, that's the hope. He's been talking a lot about equipping digital missionaries to course like that. Once again, excuse me, the cost of one person to do EDMs about 145 bucks. You can see that there. And it's our hope to be able to keep doing this stuff for free. You know, the board is for our board of directors all the time is, hey, how are finances? And often times they're not good. And you know, we're wrestling with what that means and how to do ministry. But for us, the more that we can give for free, the more that we can empower people globally with these things. And so that's the challenge that we're facing at this point.

And along those lines too, I don't know if you said this earlier today, Jeff, because I haven't caught all of it, but as we've had talks with leadership, and I know you've had these with the board as well, is we've talked about we don't believe anyone because we want to be a model that is global. Anybody that's on staff position is full-time staff position paid by the church digital. It is bivocational. Um, what's the other term for it?

Fractional.

Yeah. But we're like no, you're going to be in multiple places because that's what the rest of the globe has been. If you're a pastor in Ethiopia, you are also probably something else. Maybe the Catholic Church is an exception to that. But if you are a Protestant pastor, you are bivocational, you're working during the week, and you're a pastor on the weekends, you're a pastor over the community, co-vocational. That's the one I was thinking of. Bivocational, co-vocational. That is going, that is the norm globally and we believe that that is going to be the norm worldwide in every place in the next few decades possibly, maybe maybe longer than that, but so we want to set it up for success. We don't want to set it up so that the North American pastors can make a living off of it. We want the kingdom to be blessed by it. So nobody taking a full salary of any kind in any capacity. No one's taking a salary anyway. We get, you know, and I like to, you know, a stipend, but it's like if you've ever done pulpit supply and you get an honorarium, they pay you for the one hour you show up, not the twenty hours of preparation for the sermon.

Yeah.

So it's kind of the same way. We're committed to it. We believe in it and we will find a way to fund ourselves. But we want the church digital to be funded too, so it doesn't go anywhere.

Yeah, 100%. Love it. All right. Hey, Leighton, you're going to hang out with me for a little while. You got some still some time?

Yeah, I still got some time. We got Stacy coming in.

Stacy, let's go ahead and bring Stacy in. Hey, Stacy. How's it going?

Hey, how's it going you guys?

Oh, no, there you are. Sorry, couldn't hear you for a second, but you're yeah, look good.

You're good. You're good. We got you.

Okay, good. I'm here and um, because honestly you guys I can't stay long so you know I've got maybe ten minutes.

All right, great. No problem.

Started.

You're Stacy, you know, speaking of bivocational, Stacy's on the clock. She works full-time for an HR doing HR for city for who?

Oh, she froze. Law enforcement for law enforcement agency. I don't, I have full bars, so I don't know.

All right. Well, we'll hope for the best. So, Stacy, tell us a little bit about what you do for the Church Digital.

Yeah. Okay. So um, maybe I turned off my car, so maybe that'll help because it was trying to, I think it was trying to push Bluetooth. Um yeah. So working um as a chaplain um within church digital but also really heading to serve um the care ministry within TCD. So what that means is that we believe in uh digital missionary or ministries ministers in their care because the reality is is that burnout is real and sometimes we sacrifice ourselves for the sake of the ministry and then then then we check out and so um there was a time for myself that's what happened and I it took me I left a church that I dearly loved and all the ministries I loved and took a break and went to a church that was twenty-five miles each way from home. And that was because I just needed to not be known.

Yep.

Strange feel. I just needed to be away and from and I didn't know I didn't know how to set boundaries or establish or enforce boundaries. I didn't know how to say no. And so that was really a big turning point for me and realizing anyone anyone in ministry or not, you know, like Leighton, co-vocational, vocational, um it is up to us to care for our bodies um and our minds and our hearts and all the resources that God has given us. It is part of stewardship and so um I so believe in it and that includes as I saw a little bit of Conrad um earlier today in the live stream and his work um of leading um Project Exodus and it was not, you know, it's not about addiction really, it's not about addiction, it's about the underlying root issues that we have not uh shine the light on and you can't heal something that you have not brought to the surface.

So um I'm excited, thrilled about it and right now we have leaders um starting our first um first cohorts um for the leaders because we believe leaders need to go through that, get a taste of it and know what we're facing before we start facilitating uh groups. So really excited about that. That's help, that's really meaningful.

As you've been going through the onboarding process, Stacy, you know, and I know we were talking with Conrad about uh the thoroughness of that, but what what's been your uh opinion uh overall or like what have been some thoughts as you've been that deep in it? Uh really appreciated the fact that it's not about just stopping the bad behavior, you know, that it's not just about, oh, we need to get rid of that. I or I need to stop um, it's not sin management.

Yeah. No, it's not. It's not. And that's that, gosh, I think that's historically the church has kind of seen it that way. Um, that it is, you know, uh bad habits are forming. Okay, you just need to stop it. No, I mean, yes, yes and no. Right, that's just the start. And um there's healing and restoration to be experienced by Jesus. And we can't, it really is not about like you said, sin management. I really like that phrase. And that's the biggest one for me to see that oh it is, it this is not the um um this is this is not the historical what what used to be um you know in the church where oh it's those people, no we are those people, friends, we are those people, all of us um that that it's removing stigma, removing the stigma that it is oh those people who are addicted to porn, alcohol, drugs, you know, at the very core it's really self itself and we are hanging on to the self-medication, whatever that is.

Yeah. Um, in order, at at a personal level for me, I I can just say the more transparent I am with with what's going on in in my own life, um, the more that God seems to honor that and and allow ministry to happen through it. Um, where where others are able to to connect and engage in dialogue with it at at a deeper level. Um, you know, Leighton, as as we're, you know, we're talking about recovery and in care, um, how much does this play a part or how necessary do you think this would be like in the gaming space? Like, like how much of a need do you see for that to be?

It's a tremendous, it's a tremendous need. Um, you you've got so many different levels of what people can be addicted to. I mean, I I have DMs with an individual who's in Germany who is asking for prayer all the time, has some disabilities, and then will message me, I'm drunk, and he needs this. Um, and then and then there's just talk about the gaming sphere, anything digital, like I'm I am medicating the problems in my life by taking time and spending them in gaming. Um, you know, it's it's and then even anything else that people are doing like if you're in VR space what can happen in VR space that could can get really risqué and and out there that that you can get addicted to or you can go and see um you know very similar to pornography but probably on a a deeper level. I haven't gone there. I I just hear people talk about it but there's so many different levels of which that can be anything related to any kind of addiction that people have um and that they're not caring for themselves. I mean, streamers, how do you get watched? You stay on longer. The algorithms will push more people to you if you stay on longer. Streamers and and and I'm fine with doing a, we're doing a celebration. I'm going to do a twenty-four-hour stream kind of a thing. Yeah.

But but streamers are are good at grinding and sticking with it and hanging out. Like there's some really unhealthy behaviors you can fall into and get reinforced in the community that you're in because those health, those communities can be unhealthy. So I you know in the Discord community on Twitch uh anything going on in your life as well. I mean there's so many different levels that it could be part of it that people need healing.

Yeah. I love it. I Ian says it's all about the healing process. And so, you know, I know Ian is is Stacy is going through is uh with the the healing with or Jose is just going through the process of of of getting um trained. And then Pastor Koko from VRMMO is is uh going through as well, right?

Yeah. Yeah. Process is a good word. I process that it we didn't get to this point overnight. And so I think it it is I think I know it's an unrealistic expectation that we'll be healed overnight.

Um we, it took us how long, the surface now like that we're admitting it that we have, having a hard time managing. Yeah, like Conrad was saying, yeah, you you want a quick fix. Isn't that what addiction is, you know?

So true. It is so true. H Yeah, that's ex, that's a good one. Yeah. Quick fix. I remember was it was El Elle Michelle said that some for some of us it is getting um what you say fixing to get to the next fix or to fix others or something like that and I thought oh that that's that's a lot of us in ministry um who we all could raise our hands to that you know like yep that's that's me and I just that that really stuck with me.

That really stuck with um, so you know, I know, uh, Stacy, I know you've got to go head towards towards back to work, but we're so thankful for the, uh, the work that that you're doing on the care and the recovery side. You know, Stacy really started as as the chaplain in in meeting the needs. Uh but as we really started, you know, discovering um the magnitude of of the need uh and that it really was more than just one person and how do we create a movement? How do we establish a culture? How do we get rid of the stigmas and and and move towards it? You know, she's dove into this Project Exodus stuff and and leading leading the cause over there. It's been been a lot of fun to see. And this is it's been the thing with the church digital that's kind of been in the background uh in the like under the surface kind of kind of starting to build up and develop and and we're I know I'm really excited at a personal level. I'm really excited to see what's going to come of this in in twenty-six and beyond. So Stacy, once again, thank you for the hard work that you've been doing here.

As we're letting you go, any closing thoughts? Yeah, I know. Culture that's a really good thing is um what you said is really establishing and nurturing a culture of care, restoration, healing um wherever wherever God is showing us each of us and so we want to be part of that and nurture that and invest um to healthy leaders.

Very good. Thanks you. All right, Stacy. Thank you very much. Enjoy the rest of your lunch break and uh and and thanks for doing what you're doing.

Bye. All right. Um let me I'm so excited about what Stacy is is up to. And boy, listen to the group of people that are going to be leading that. I'm like I think we had so many that were like, "Okay, who on senior leader wants to to step into this? Who's who's really excited?" And it was like all of a sudden it was like boom, they're all taken up like this is this is our group. We're ready to roll. It was like that many of us see the need and have that desire to step into it. It was really cool.

I mean, I was I was excited about it. I want to know, but I like I didn't have the time to do it. And I'm so glad that there was like, oh, no, we have enough volunteers to get this thing rolling. Uh I I'm excited when it gets past beta and we get to start rolling it out. Like you were asking about, does this need it in the in the in the gaming space? Like I am going to try to go to every single Discord server that I know of Christian streamers and find a person in that group to be their person that can help with this.

And that's going to take a while once we get it rolling. But like that's going to be one of my objectives as a gaming outpost person is is there a person in your community that is the care person? Who can you identify? We can train them. We can un uh unleash them in your community so that you have a safe caring person to oversee your community's need for recovery where that's at.

So like long term I'm super excited about how that's going to get unfolded, but that's going to be years. Yeah, it's it's going to take you mean culture is going to take time, right? It was if it's a quick fix. What what did what did Conrad say so good like if I don't know exactly I was paraphrasing it. He said something like, "We want the quick fix, but isn't quick fix an addiction?"

Isn't that just addiction to have a quick fix? I think he said it differently like microwave or something. But that's what registered in my head. And so that's how I'm going to remember it.

Value, it's going to take time. Like man, he just he threw that out in the South African accent and and it just was like, "Oh crap, I was good." But I didn't I didn't I wanted I was at the end I was going to be like, "Hey, can you say that again?" Uh but I I I just I felt bad. Um, you were listening the first time. What's wrong? No, I'm kidding. Um, hey, listen, Stacy, thanks for hanging out uh with us. Um, I mean, all of this, even the groups, we're we're we're trying as best as possible to make the the um the recovery groups for free.

The the challenge is all about money. Uh, and and how do we how do we pay project access? How do we pay software costs? How do how do we pay for for all of these things that that we're doing? How do we pay for for training and and and equipping the leaders and and there's some different business models and there's some things that we're we're looking through.

Uh but the fact is is right now the cost of to keep the lights on for the church digital is about $381.70 a day and and so you know every little by the way that oh my gosh that's a lot of money that is nothing. Uh we had talked about with with Andy. Um you know that that is that's

JO said some churches Yeah. To turn their HVAC on. $3,500 for a Sunday to turn your HVAC on. Get get air conditioning going. Man, I do I do not want that bill. Yeah. It's I will say this the other thing too that I because I was I was talking about in mine we made some shifts along the way and you you mentioned it too different iterations of the church digital.

Stacy was one of those that like she didn't fit with what we were doing but she didn't go anywhere. She just kept hanging around for a while and then when we made the shift to being a digital missionary sending agency last year it was starting to shift to being able to I I know why I'm here now. Uh uh there might be a place for me. And so she's now moving into and stepping into that where we had to shift and become something different before she had a place to belong.

But she didn't want to go anywhere else once she found us. It was uh I I know your heart and there's a place for me. It's going to take me a while to find it. So it's super exciting to see her now moving forward having found what she is going to bring and contribute to this community. It's amazing and I love it.

Yeah, it was it was funny. I can remember the um interview my when I was pitching her the job like the interview uh interview process uh and and and I was like because she she came from a digital um church. She has uh background experience with as a as a missions with missions organizations, self-fundraising as as a missionary, uh background with HR, uh strong in recovery, and and and I was like, Stacy, you were uniquely created for this job.

Like every everything that you're about is is summarized in what we're looking for right here. Um and and you've you've even been sticking around this community for two years. Like I used to I used to call it this the the Stacy Nap paradox. It's like this this woman sticking around here. I you know and we need to figure out where she fits in, but we're we're reaching the wrong audience because we're reaching people like Stacy, but that's not who we're trying to reach, but they're the ones that are sticking around. So, what are we what are we doing? And and I love the fact that we've managed to to like find a place for her and and have her jump in like she has been with with leadership.

And so, the church.digital/give. Great place to give. Um, you know, time time's ticking away. We do have a $5,000 grant right now that is open uh that we're hoping to uh to maximize on that. And so for every dollar you give, they will give a matching uh donation. So two for one right now, swing over to the church.digital/give and and and get a donation in there.

Well, I I tell you what, Leighton. Uh we've got one of your friends here on the stream um with uh with Christian Ninja and so let me bring him Oh, you know what? Christian Ninja, my fault I didn't tag you. Let me let me get you on. There you go. There we go. I'm tagged. Thank you. Hello. Awesome. Good to see you. So, um, I'm going to let the two of you talk, uh, because because, you know, you guys go way back and and Christian Ninja, we're excited to to have you be part of the family and you're another big part of what I'm excited about in in 26 as we're we're going to be bringing in Taco. We're working alongside Taco, partnering with Taco and uh a bringing some of the content creation um training and awarenesses into the digital missionaries we're working with in the church digital and and obviously as as we're able to organizationally uh care for and uh whether uh you know emotionally support or whatever the words are there uh an organization like Taco uh Mikasa Sucasa. It looks like ukulele is is in the house. I I see uh a chat right now couple tacos in the chat.

Ukulele is is is coming in and saying taco. Uh thanks for that. What else you gonna say? Yeah. I'm jealous over the fact that there's like a taco emoji. I I I want I want a TCD. Andy, we need a TCD emoji. Let's see what we can do. I I don't know what we can do. Um Okay. So, my scene where I'm not involved and you two are are is broken. So, I'm gonna fix I'm I'm gonna push a button. You guys can talk, but I'm gonna fix it in the background while you guys are talking.

But And uh Leighton, I'll leave it to you and I'll come back around 45 or so. All right. No, it is 45. I'll come back around. It is 45. I'll come back around 4 or so. Yeah. Okay. Perfect. Thanks, man. Here you go. Awesome. What's up, dude? Hey. Uh I think it is kind of interesting that way. Talk about the crossover, right? Like the Oh, yeah.

One of the neatest things that God is doing in sort of the space of digital missions is he's raising up leaders, right? So, one of the one of the surprising things it is that I guess you back up and like you have some OGs. They got Susie and things like that, but then you have this sort of explosion because of COVID of people that are called into this ministry. They're seeing the the need for it. And but the problem is that so many of the people that were called are people that were uh like just I get normies whatever like just like average church attenders or folks who didn't go or just folks that had a heart for it.

But what there wasn't and everybody kind of knows this is that the the the embracing of it by the church. There were some people some churches that were like all right we got to be online now. That's the way it is. But then as soon as you know kind of COVID was over they cut that off and we're done. But the uh the God started raising up about I don't know two three years ago kind of thing when this started to happen maybe even four where it was obvious that the traditional church and people who understand the traditional church were meant to be part of the the needed to be part of this because there were so many people going undiscipled so many people that aren't feeling uh supported that were invalidated that were church hurt that were you know etc a million million other things and they the and so started raising up kind of these point leaders all around that have church experience that h that have uh that are pastors that are organizational developers that have a heart for this that are able to you know teach business things like that and none of us are stepping on each other's toes I think that's to me that's the coolest part of this

Oh no. We're back. Did we did we glitch. All right we're not stepping on each other's toes. I I think one of the coolest parts of this whole thing is that there are a lot of organizations starting to be developed, a lot of different leaders that are coming up, but we're we're truly being like a church family should where you have different people with different abilities and different uh uh strategies and whatnot, but they're all kind of leaning into each other and helping it out. TCD uh is has been absolutely fantastic for that, for Taco, like the the ministry that you guys have given to to me specifically and us behind the scenes where nobody else would see it and you guys aren't getting pressed for this. No videos are made, no content's made about it has been, you know, sort of integral to getting, you know, getting me and getting Taco through the last year.

Uh, and that is purely sacrificial. That is just you guys going, you know, we we love the digital environment. We we want to be able to to have people that are that care about who we care about healthy and, you know, reaching out and being a part of that. It's like you guys are very valuable and I really appreciate that. Well, you know, we we we say friends on mission, and that's not just you and me, friends on mission. That is Taco and TCD, friends on mission. And that's really part of what um my role is on some level of being the tangible resource person is not just for individuals, but saying, "Hey, at a church, like for instance, a an organization like Taco, where are the gaps?" cuz you don't have a support system to do that. So maybe we don't have the things that you need, but what is it that Taco needs and how can we help you do the ministry God's calling you to?

If you're a church and you're a digital, you probably don't have a lot of denominational structure and support there. So what do you need?

And then other organizations like you and then I'm also with the outpost trying to step into streamers and say hey need to support and I love at least the spillover of Twitch culture of we share communities overlap so far for the most part and I know there's been people with toes stepped on and Christians individually but so far there's the hey I can be connected with Taco but I'm not part of Taco. I am friends of Taco. I am Taco adjacent. I am Taco supporter. I did the Taco class. I loved it. And we're going to be working on the Taco class and bringing that into our ecosystem so we can share it with other people and and help it grow beyond what you're doing.

And then Reach Conference and Hopeful Disasters. I'm the guy trying to be in all those places. Not everyone else is, but even when I'm in those places, there's natural overlap between all of those places because we're all in the same place trying to connect the same people. And it's it's bigger kingdom going on than maybe I've seen in a lot of places where we get more territorial about our own community and I have to have the biggest church in town.

That was kind it was built into the DNA of Taco right from the very beginning was this idea that we're because well content creators are like super individualistic. They really their content is their content. Their channels are their channels. Their Discords, their Discord, their people are their people. And you can't touch them. Don't touch my stuff. They're also antagonistic against organized religion. You know, many are anti-authority. Many, you know, it's like it's herding cats.

And so when you can't when we came into this thing, we knew that there was no way we're going to be able to come in and kind of go, "Hey, become us. Let us take your stuff." I didn't think we would do that, but you know, it had to be let's serve you and release you. What do you need? You know, here's what we think you need. So here's a class or here's a you know, here's a Discord or here's some help or here's some community. Here's some pastoral counseling or or whatever it is. And we're not going to touch your stuff. We just want to serve you in whatever way we can serve you. And then go out and do your thing. Come back when you need more.

Because I I think not that I want to slam the you know the traditional church or whatever but one of the things about having a sort of a church building or a local church is that there's this sort of inherent idea of you know we want you to come here we want you to come you know come in like everything kind of leads to you got to come.

We have to justify the size of the building by having the number of people the building is managed for you know.

And digital missions don't we don't really have that problem right like the amount of people that we can serve is near infinite because if we have evergreen content on YouTube, we release that, a million people can watch it and we don't have to house them. They're not, you know, they're not there and and vice versa. I can have as many people in the chat as I want. There's no bounds to it.

It has uh the the the love that you guys have and that we have for the digital environment. I think one of the coolest things that that it allows us to do is to be able to see the digital environment as its own people group.

Right? Be able to kind of say these guys are different than you know it it's sort of similar to like youth are different they need different care than your average churchgoer right or inner city or people who are struggling with mental health issues or or autistic people or women or men right kind of thing like there is a unique world and a unique language and a unique perspective that they have. In the same way, internet people, the digital environment has that too, right?

There's a certain parlance to it. There's a certain vocabulary to it. There's a certain cadence to it. There's a way that we experience things, right? So it's I my favorite one is digital people or internet people, they want to experience things together, right? The assumption would be that they all want to be individualistic, but no.

If you look at the way the content works, there there's content that like say a news article or something funny or something interesting and then there's someone reacting to that content, right? If you go to the average internet person, they're going to watch the reaction. They're not going to watch the original content. And old school would be like, well, why would you do that? They're talking over the thing you want to watch. And the answer is parasocial relationship. We want to feel like someone's in the room with us. We want to feel like someone's laughing along with us or or learning along with us or whatever. And that reaction content there. So built into the into online digital missions is already this inherent desire for community, but they're willing to get it in a myriad of different ways, right? Just so many different ways. You know, I want to play whatever. Yeah. They're seeking it out. Exactly.

Seeking the relationship. And so we raise up the content creators to be able to build whatever that niche is. You know what I mean? Like there's some people that are like, "We do Lego. We love Lego and we're going to we're going to build a whole community based on us, you know, enjoying Lego." Other people are going to play a certain game. Other people are going to do art. Other people are going to cook. Other people are going to do music. Other people are going just a myriad of of people God's raising up just from the grassroots that are coming out of the woodwork that have interests that are connecting to people that are building bridges for the gospel, right? And what do we do with those people? Now you've got a motivated missionary who has a community that they're trying to build with faith but doesn't have a church and doesn't have a denomination, doesn't have a support system, doesn't have any money, you know, doesn't have any training, right? Like that the church should be freaking out about this going, "Wow, there's so many missionaries. Let's go help them." And that's where the church digital comes in, right? And that's where you guys are so key in this this place that we're in right now in the world of how ministry is going online.

Yeah. Well, and and we're trying to create different content. We don't want to duplicate content that's out there. Like you you did a wonderful job creating the Taco course to help help content creators think through the content they're creating. We developed equipping digital missionaries to think through the mentality of being a missionary. So it complements what you're doing. We don't need to create a course for you know thinking about your content. We just say here's Taco's course. You guys did a great job. We love what you have. Now, maybe there's advanced courses that'll come along after that. And maybe there's an advanced course that we'll we'll develop after equipping digital missionaries. We know we're at the start of of doing these things, but we're we're both trying to address different things and they both complement each other and we can both share those with each other.

We're a little bit broader than just primarily gaming only. And and your content creation can spill over past gaming into YouTube, into TikTok, into other places that have nothing to do with gaming. It it it really, you know, both both of us have created something that has a wider range than what we're currently using it for. And I think God is going to multiply and bless that.

I had a two-hour conversation today online with someone who came into chat and was like, I'm, you know, I I I want to make content. I I've been trying to make content, but I'm not totally sure what I'm supposed to be making and what I'm supposed to be doing. I like music. I like, you know, stuff. I like streaming, and I don't know what to do. And uh spent two hours walking this dude through why do you do what you do? What did God create for you? What is important? Uh what what gets you out of bed in the morning? What are the needs you see? What what's the purpose that you have? Where's God and all this? And and as I challenged it was back and forth for a long time kind of like pushing pushing pushing pushing. Let's define this thing.

I've had those conversations. Yeah.

Right. Then by the end of the of the conversation, the dude's like, I think I just got my mission statement. You know, I like this is I I I I I know I see this in a different way. And it would it was it meant the world to me to be able to find somebody who has passion, you know, like he basically had a giant tank of gas and he's like, I want to go somewhere and I've been pouring it into this bucket and pouring it into the onto the ground and I've been pouring it over here and lighting fires and none of it seems to be it's there's energy, but I don't know. It's not going anywhere. And to finally kind of go, well, here's, you know, here's a channel that you can put it in that will move move you forward. That was it was it meant so much. And that was a musician, right? He doesn't play games. He doesn't do the uh you know, your average Twitch stuff. What he does is he makes music.

That's awesome.

Yeah, that's I I get kind of annoyed when people pigeonhole digital ministry to gaming. You know what I mean? Like we're not just gamers and the game isn't even the game. The game is merely a bridge to relationship is it is a common experience that they can have together just like you would do with any other ministry in church like pizza night or or you know like small groups worshiping together.

The largest church to community.

Yeah. Like I say, cowboy church. I mean, it's all centered around the fact that I don't know, you're you you dress a certain way, you ride a certain animal, and you farm certain things. Like, I don't even know what, you know, but I've seen cowboy church. Like, if you go show up to one of those, like, everyone's dressed the same. They all talk the same. They all know the language. They all know what to do. Why are they there? Because they're centered around an identity that they all identify with.

Gaming is not really any different. But within gaming there's all the different niches of where do you identify which uh you know people will just and I and I you know alluded to this when I was I was on earlier of of Twitch being uh oh it's a gaming platform. It is.

But the number one category is just chatting.

Yeah. Like that is actually a misnomer. Yes, it's a gaming platform, but like there is so much more happening and the most popular thing happening isn't even gaming.

When you if you listen to what Dan Clancy said this year for.

Yeah. Let's take another category for a minute. What is what Amazon sell?

It's a book company. That's how they started.

Amazon sells books.

Yeah.

Okay. So, it would be thinking that Amazon still sells books to say that Twitch is just video games because it's it's not. It's so much wider, broader.

Yep.

This year, Dan Clancy was at uh the annual kind of the Twitch meeting, right, where he's talking about what we're going to be doing and how and you know what's going to happen. It was all like the had the emphasis was IRL streams. That's what it was all about. How can we give you your phone in your pocket so you can go and do live streams at events so you can have people with you so everybody can kind of go with you places?

It wasn't what games can you guys play and how can we make gameplay easier. It was all how can we take this thing that we're doing right now and put it in the hands of people who are out doing things that nobody else can see live.

Right? It's that. That's where that's the gaming thing is. It's not gone, obviously it's huge, but it's not going anywhere. But no, but at the same time, that is not where it's at. It is just so much bigger.

That's not the growing edge. It'll, the gamers will still be there, but if Twitch wants to grow, it has to grow beyond the gamers. And and, uh, yeah, that's where I hang out too, with the people that are doing baking, the people that are doing music, the people that are doing all of the other things that are on there.

Um, I don't know how soon we'll have Jeff coming back in, but it really is a focus on community as, uh, everyone is there. It's community that people are longing for. They belong to. That's what they're hungry for. That's what we're giving them. And then what I like to say when I'm pitching people to, you know, support me is I'm giving them Christian community. They knew they needed community. They just didn't know they needed Christian community. And that's what I'm giving them.

And they're looking for it, man. Everybody's looking for it. They're looking for it. They, they, they're so lonely. The lost, the lonely, the disenfranchised that are on the internet that struggle with mental health, uh, learning disabilities, uh, the loneliness epidemic, right? What I heard recently, the friendship drought, right? That's where we're at right now where people are alone. In Canada where I am, it is like most, uh, dwellings have one person. Like we made a shift about ten years ago or fifteen years ago where it used to be all families were in homes and then there were some, you know, then there were singles. Now it's everybody's single in their home and there's some that are families and that means that there are people that are home that are lonely across the nation. People that have mental health issues, that have social anxiety, that have learning disabilities that keep them out of groups, that have physical disabilities that keep them out of groups. And it boggles the mind, uh, that those groups could be forgotten or that we would say, "I'm sorry. You have to get over all that, you know, get over your social anxiety, get over your autism, get over your learning disability, get over your mental health issue, get over your depression, you know, and get over not being able to climb the stairs and then you can come." Like, we got to go to them, man. That's where we're going.

Totally, totally agree with you. Yeah, that's that's kind of where the church has been for a while. I think COVID just really, uh, shined a light on the fact that there was a whole bunch of people that we were not reaching and we suddenly had an avenue to reach them. We need to pour into that avenue to reach them because they're not going to come in. And I keep hearing more and more groups and I want to keep exploring this like, you know, like the parents of traveling sports teams kids. Like your kid is going to be a hockey player and you're gone the whole weekend. You're like, what do you do? You lost your faith community because you are pursuing something that you think is beneficial to your community, your church, your kid. Um, you know, so how do we, like, there's so many different categories like that, Al, you know, that you're reaching them. Uh, any last things you want to just share about Taco or what you're doing? Where can people go to support you?

Check out taconetwork.org. Go to christianninja.com. Come see me on stream. Every stream is an AMA. So that means you can always interrupt. You can always talk. You can always ask anything. I'm a trained pastoral counselor. I've got books. I do Christian counseling, you know, counseling. Like, just come hang out and, uh, I'm really excited about what's happening in January. We're doing a big reshift into serving the content creators in our that we get to take care of in so much better ways. So much better ways. Just wait till you see what happens in 2026. It's exciting stuff.

Very cool. Awesome, man. I'm, I'm excited about the road ahead for you. Looking forward to working more closely with you in 2026 and beyond. So check out, uh, taconetwork.org. I, I believe on that, right? And so Christian Ninja.

And, uh, and ukulele has been chiming along in chat as well. Uh, I have no idea what all those emojis, uh, mean at this point, but, uh, good for you. I, I do, I do love ukuleles. Dove into our community quickly and, uh, was a, was a fun, uh, resource, uh, for, for us along the way. And the more that we can support, uh, our friends over at Taco, uh, the better. And so, so love it. But, uh, Christian Ninja, appreciate you guys.

Thanks for hanging out with us, man.

You too, man.

Awesome, man. Have a great one. I hope you million dollars.

Yeah. Yeah, I hope that so too. Let's just say it that way. Thanks, man. Uh, are you hanging out for this next one or are you, you got to go?

Uh, I could hang out for Atope.

Yeah. So you got Atope Laala coming on. Uh, who is our, our subsaharan South African, uh, outpost leader. And so, Atope, how you doing, man?

I'm doing great. How you guys been?

Awesome. Enjoying the stream, man? It's been fun seeing you chime in along the way. Hey, so but thanks for hanging out with us, uh, for, for so long, man. This is, this is really good. I, I first met, you know, well, actually before I do this, why don't you, uh, you know, introduce yourself and tell a little bit about yourself.

All right. Uh, my name is Atope. I'm from, um, Nigeria. I currently live in Ibadan, which is just a few, about one and a half hours from Lagos. Um, I'm a digital missionary, digital ministry consultant, helping people get into using digital ministry to win souls, make disciples, think differently about digital, especially in Africa, you know, and in Nigeria where, um, yeah, we have challenges with internet and all that, but we still leverage these digital platforms. Essentially, I want people to think, how can we go beyond just broadcasting content to actually leading people to know Jesus and following him intentionally.

That's kind of a good thing, man. I'm, I'm excited. So I first met Atope, man, 2018, 2019, before COVID, right?

2019.

2019. Yeah. I was, I was, um, doing some of the church digital stuff, uh, before I think, uh, I was working with Stadia and really started to connect up, man. And so definitely excited. Never met Atope, at least in physical space, but, uh, has been just a guy that I've, I've enjoyed working with from afar. And, um, you know, hearing some of the stuff that, that he was working on, there was definite, uh, alignment, uh, ministry towards the stuff that, that we were wanting to do with the church digital and some of the stuff that, that he was doing. So, Atope, I know you're leading an outpost, um, for, uh, in subsaharan Africa, uh, region. Uh, tell me a little bit about that. Tell me about EDM, come kind of that journey. Like, uh, what's your journey been inside the church digital?

Okay. Um, so one of the, one of the best, the greatest blessings of the church digital to me has been giving language to a lot of the things going on in my head, you know. So I'm thinking this through. I'm thinking particularly in terms of structure, you know. I mean, um, like I said, most of what I've been doing were just innovative ideas, testing the ground and just experimenting with stuff. But then being in the church digital, especially with EDM, it gave clear next steps to what I was doing. I remember having conversations with Jeff where we were talking about, okay, what are your next steps? And you know, that has caused me to explore several things, especially digital discipleship because there's still a lot of bad rap that digital gets in Africa, you know, essentially because, yeah, the infrastructure is part of the challenge, but also, you know, the mindset that, um, church is majorly a physical space or an event that we go to as against a community of people that we are interacting with, you know. And, um, of course, now, in fact, right now with the advent of AI, there's a lot of conversation going on in the church in Nigeria about things like that. And so being in the church digital gave me a lot of clarity in terms of step by step to accomplishing what I wanted to do. And then, you know, um, having gone through EDM myself and taking people through the EDM course has been very helpful. You know, it has helped people. Uh, majority of the guys that I've interacted with in Kenya, in Uganda, in Ghana, in South Africa are guys that are having clarity in terms of what do I do next? So it's not just, okay, I want to reach out to people who know, who want to know, who need to know Jesus. I want to help believers get grounded in the truth. Is, okay, when I do that, what's the next thing for me to do? What technology do I use next? You know, what's the strategy that I need to put in place? And the guys that I've been interacting with, in fact, recently I met one of the guys in the, um, subsaharan Africa EDM group, you know, mentioned that they used, um, Sudoku as a way to reach people for Jesus, you know. And it was very exciting to, they set up this, um, um, gaming thing. It wasn't even just, it wasn't video games. It was, uh, board games, you know, online.

Yeah.

And they ended up having a whole day. I think maybe about four or five hours. I can't remember now. But they, people, Christians gathered and, you know, they met people that didn't know Jesus and it was so exciting to read, you know, that kind of innovative approach.

Wow. In terms of the context that we are in, you know, I mean, um, gaming is still a good thing. My, my eleven-year-old son does Roblox, he does Minecraft once in a while, but we don't have the bandwidth that can actually support that. Data is quite expensive here. Uh, for me to get steady internet on a monthly basis, unlimited internet, I'll probably be spending close to, um, to get the gadgets, maybe one hundred fifty thousand, which is like one hundred dollars, you know, and all that. But, um, that's a lot of money here. That's like almost one third of my rent.

But, um, you know, thinking, thinking through that, in spite of the challenges we have with, uh, large bandwidth, people have still been able to use what they have, you know, to still be able to reach people. And it underscores the fact that it's really about community, not so much so about the content or about the, you know, platforms that we are using. It's actually, how do we connect with people? How do we lead them into conversations about Jesus? So, um, EDM has given that structure, has given that clarity. And I, I mean, I see a lot. Like I said, I had ideas in my head of a framework and then Jeff and the other guys in the EDM, you know, they mention and he just clearly stated it out and I'm like, wow, this is exactly what I was thinking. Okay, how do I make mine simpler in terms, now that I have a bigger or, um, a clearer framework? What can I do to also, you know, learn from that, um, contextualize it for my own context and then see how it launches and it works well in that space. So, um, that, that for me has been a great blessing.

Wow. Incredible, man. Uh, I did not know that about Sudoku. Uh, like, you know, it's, what's beautiful, and even, you know, I think Christian Ninja was talking about this, is it's, it's all, um, there's so many different contexts and different environments, you know, gaming, uh, okay, there can be streaming, there can be in-game, even in-game, um, you know, there's so many different, is it an MMO? Is it, is it, is it a, you know, what's, what's the characteristics, the culture around that? Board games, I know Lux Digital Church does a...

lot with board games. Sudoku, like the little paper. Yeah, I that's just my my uh my wife plays Sudoku a lot, so she she'd be really excited, I think, if if she heard about that.

But um man, that that's that's really interesting. So, um I know you've been teaching equipping digital missionary uh the course um you know, a couple times and it was interesting. We we we tried it once or twice. You you and I you taught it once. I taught it with you once and and it didn't it didn't have great success and then and then you you you did it um again and and and started, you know, you finally figured out the secret sauce. Maybe talk a little bit about that, how it it didn't work and then it did work and and what you did uh to kind of to to culturize it for you and he's stuck in the mean spot right there, man.

It's like dude so good. Well, while while in the meantime before it when he comes back, I just an overall approach and you mentioned this earlier is the idea that we want it to be adapted. We want it to be adopted. When you're talking about Europe earlier with Simon, it's like we we don't want it to be all of those white faces from North America being the global face of the church. We want it to be in country by country for country or in language by language for language or on platform by platform for platform.

So it's it's got to start somewhere but we want it to be modified and I I love the story. So if he comes back I want I want him to share it. But the trying it and going well this is what we're trying to do. Here's how we're trying to do it. And it just like going nah it doesn't work in this culture in this context. This is too North American, you know, and and it really it really is funny as as a guy who spends hundred US dollars uh for you know his uh his internet access a month um which is some even at um you know in in subsaharan Africa, Nigeria. Um, you know, the the reality is is that he was trying to get we were trying to get a bunch of these Africans to watch videos and um and and they wouldn't do it and and then you know whether they felt guilty about not watching the videos and and didn't come into it or whether they didn't have engagement because they didn't watch the videos and they wouldn't come into the conversation, they wouldn't do it. And and so you know what he ended up doing was actually like um teaching it over a WhatsApp audio channel. He he's like, "Jeff, no videos. Um I will teach the material. Uh I'll watch the videos and then I'll I'll I'll you know, put it into my culture language. Um and and and I'll I'll I'll teach it to to the cohort via audio only." And and yeah, we said, "Hey, man, whatever. Let's give it a shot." and and it and it worked and uh and and it went from uh man we had this huge need this huge opportunity in in in Nigeria um to now uh having this this huge success uh in in subsahara and South Africa man um tell me hey tell me can you hear me now? Yeah you're good. Yes I can. Yeah. And there's probably a delay. Yeah. When we started uh EDM, I remember Jeff was taking one of the classes and I was supporting you know and um at some point I mean the interactions the response was was okay but people were not attending as we should you know and then um I was supposed to take another class after that and so this time I was neck deep in it and one of the things I discovered was some kind of disconnect in terms of people knowing or a lot of people were new to some bits of uh technology and you know and so and didn't actually even have a clear strategy and that was based on our interactions and then we came up with a few ideas of actually practicalizing some of the things that we were learning you know which was our own way of contextualizing what we had learned you know and I saw that that that changed the game entirely because now people had knowledge and they knew what exactly to do with the knowledge knowledge cuz the previous um um sessions people had the knowledge but then I noticed that people weren't taking any action and as I asked you know I discovered that it wasn't because they it was almost as if they were um overwhelmed with the knowledge and didn't know what next to do and so as we interacted I saw okay taking next steps and I mean in the in in from the last EDM I've developed a couple of new friendships you know people that are now I'm following up on and they're telling me this is what they've done so far. This is what they've been able to do so far, you know. I mean, there's one that jokingly calls me he's um he says he's my Timothy I'm his po is in Ghana, you know, and we have interesting conversations because now I can follow up with him. I know exactly where he is, you know, I can tell him what next to do, you know, and and so that makes it more practical and that's our own way of contextualizing because, you know, the idea that everybody is usually aware of what to do with digital technology, particularly with regards to digital ministry, there's that if you've been around for a while, you assume that everybody knows what to do. But then by the time you get into the uh nitty-gritty, you discover that a lot of things are new to people. I have a couple of people that are in fact there's a particular woman that is in her close to her 70s. She's very very active. She does physical missionary work but she wants to reach out to younger people and she's thinking of using digital tools. There's no digital tool I mentioned to her that she doesn't want to learn, you know, and she's excited. She really wants to I mean she's always on any program, anything I'm doing, she's always there wanting to learn more. And so that excites me. And some of these other people we've also met physically. You know, we've had the opportunity of meeting one-on-one discussing how we can make progress in their own ministry and how uh TCD can actually help them become better.

Hey, and you even did uh talk to me a little bit. I for I forgot this is a good thing too. Um talk to me about your the discipleship conference that you did uh a couple months ago, right? You did a a physical discipleship conference there there in Nigeria. Disciplemaker summit right there. Yeah. Tell tell me about it.

Yeah. Um I haven't got my t-shirt.

Okay.

Sporting a t-shirt. That's awesome.

All right. So yeah, we had this one of the things we're trying to do.

Yeah.

One one of the things we're trying to do involved in disciple making.

Okay.

Is it back now?

Go, bro. You It's all you, man.

Oh, boy.

Okay. All right. So, one of the things we were trying to do was also to encourage people that were involved in disciplemaking, especially individuals, because my observation number of people wanted to make disciples but organizationally there was a challenge in that area in terms of um I mean it was easier to reach out and I think you mentioned at one point it was almost like B2C rather than B2B you know reaching out to the organizations was a bit tough to get the organizations to commit but I mean I had relationships with individuals so I just reached out to those people uh we used my my place. I have a I have like two sitting rooms. So, we use my house and uh we able to have we had about 35 people including the volunteers. We about 10 volunteers and we had about 25 other people that were able to make it physically and uh we had different four different topics. Even had u printed worksheets for conversations around those things. And we had you know we talked about the uh the paradigms that needed for disciple making. Uh we talked about digital discipleship we talked about church planting from scratch we talked about uh what was the fourth thing now I can't remember now but major we we spoke about those things and the idea was how do we equip the regular individual who is desirous of making disciples but feels contained or doesn't feel equipped enough in the church structure that they belong how can they do that you know on their own and it was such a beautiful conference because the feedback particularly for me it was the mind shifting experience of being able to go from you know just um being a a church member to actually thinking of disciple making within our context. Um Jason Jason J Mo was one of our speakers and we had recorded because just to avoid issues with internet we had all the sessions recorded so we just played the sessions and then we had conversations after each session and it was so beautiful. People did not want to go home. We started at 10 a.m. We finished at 2:00. People did not want to go home. We finished at 3:00. People did not want to go home. We had to chase literally chase everybody and say, "Please go to your families, you know, and it was it was such a and I still have ripples of that." And I'm hoping that maybe I mean hopefully before this year runs out, we'll have a digital version of this same thing because quite a number of people could not attend physically uh last minute issues with some people and all that. So I'm looking forward to having this and I mean especially the conversations that happened as a result of it and the going forward.

J Mo mentioned something very critical you know about not just having views but actually having disciples that were made. He he he shared a story of how they reach a million people during one of the the um digital outreaches that they did but then he they were able to cycle back and were doing more disciple making. I think maybe about 100,000 or something like that. But they focus more on discipleship than just uh the views and that that was that was a privilege discussion that day was help people to make a shift.

So um I had the support of TCD in terms of funding in terms of uh JO getting involved and all the support I could get and it was really beautiful to have something like that happen.

Yeah, it was it was kind of fun to sponsor a a physical discipleship conference on another continent. Uh in uh in uh Nigeria. And so it's it's fun to see uh you know, Utop's ministry expand and grow. And that's you know with our with our outpost leader Simon, you know, one of the things he wanted to do was a was a European digital missionary conference. And so we worked with Simon and and his organization to do that in October. And and uh but we want to, you know, that's the thing with the with the church digital. It's like we want to help uh ministry happen. And so talking to guys like Simon Utope uh Tariq will be on here I think later yet later today um and and uh Leighton here you know some of our outpost leaders some of the guys that are that are that are helping us and volunteering in a big way. What what is God calling you to do and how can we the church digital how can we help and so you know listen to Utop talking what's fascinating with with Atope and and myself and a few others is we've we've gone into digital learn things in digital and then God gives us an opportunity to go into physical space but we wouldn't have been prepared for doing that if we hadn't learned things in digital ministry and innovating in digital is now giving us better equipment to be able to go to a physical space and do something.

Yeah, that's interesting. You know, I had uh pastor um uh Pastor D was was on here earlier. I'm not sure if she's still in the audience, but I did a podcast stream with her and and she says I asked her what the difference between physical and digital was. And she said, "Well, Jeff, digital is far more uh intimate than physical." And and I was like literally I was like, "You you you think so?" and and and she said, "Yeah." And she gave this eloquent, you know, dissertation the way that Pastor D will uh about why she believes that she's a

She's been a hybrid church pastor for years and so, yeah, it was really interesting her take on that. That echoes exactly what you're saying, man.

Very, very cool. Um, I man, um, Utope, I love the fact that we get to support digital missionaries like you in and that we get to resource and come alongside and help do what God is calling you to do.

If somebody wants to follow up more with what you're doing with Rampage and Rampage Outreach and the Church Digital and the Outpost, like what's the best way for people to get in touch with you?

All right. Um, easiest way to reach me at the moment is um, my Instagram account, Rampage Outreach. I'm working on a website. I'm trying to put all my work into my brand. So is coming up. Um, if you check it now, you probably won't see much, but I mean, I'm working on it. I'm hoping that before the year ends I so that so that all my work digital um ministry um physical ministry everything you can see that so it.com or just check Rampage Outreach on Facebook or Instagram and you get lots about me. Uh, by the way, I'm also working on a book. I'm hoping to finish Digital Ministry Blueprint by the end of the year or early next year. And um, I just wanted to also put that out.

Very, very good, man. I can't wait to see the book. Uh, digital, which digital ministry blueprints coming soon.

Blueprints. Utope la.com. Uh, coming soon. That's ei.com. Utope. And then um Rampage, RAMP. One of the classic video games from the 1990s. Let me just take a moment and hat tip Rampage. Uh, one of my favorites of all times. Rampageoutreach dot or no uh Instagram. Rampage Outreach. Um, very good. Hey Utope, man. Thanks for jumping on here and hanging out with us.

Yeah, my son says hi.

Let me see. Hey, say buddy.

Hello.

Hey. All the way from another continent, man. That's awesome, man. You, I man, it's got to be 11:00 your time. Almost.

Uh, well, it's 10, it's almost 10:30.

10:30. Okay.

So I'm still awake.

All right. Well, man, thanks for hanging out with us late and tell your boys got to go to bed.

Yeah, I know. I mean, I know.

See you, man. Thanks. Thank you guys. Yeah.

Man, I love hanging out with Utope. I just I love the simple clarity of discipleship that he has. It has been so fun to see his journey over the past five or six years from asking questions to now figuring out how to execute, how to multiply and seeing the generations come and also it's just beautiful.

His willingness to experiment.

Yeah. I mean, let me go pay for a Facebook ad and see if I can get the gospel in front of people. Let you know, let me go try this. Let me go like there is like just that curiosity of will it work and I'm going to try something that a lot of I would say mainline North American churches are going to say prove it works and if you can prove it works we'll put money behind it. Well, like how do you follow the spirit if that's the way you're going to lead anything, you know? And you had the conversation earlier. I'm trying to remember uh name, but talking about yeah, I failed six, seven, four, you know, times before I figured out what worked.

Um, talking with sermon shots. I can't remember his name.

Well, crap. Now I'm blinking on it.

And it's it's covering it's my that Cory, Cory Alderin.

Yeah, Corey. Yeah, but it's it's that it's that same kind of thing where I feel really fortunate that I was at a church uh that gave me permission to try things and fail uh because I tried some things and it would be like when it was when it was a stinker cuz I was doing uh ministry in uh uh drama ministry. When it was a stinker and I tried something and it failed, it was like, "Yep, that didn't go as planned, did it?" Nope. That was the end of the conversation. Like it's like they didn't they did not need to say anything more. It was obvious it didn't work. It's like all right, you learned something, didn't you? Yep, I did. And uh and you move on. But I've been at other churches that I pastored that did not have that mentality that's like no, you have to have it perfect. And I'm like, we're going to change that cuz we're not going to raise anybody up in an environment that you have to be perfect because they will never risk. They'll never try. You'll get you'll get maybe profits um who will be coming up. You will not get shepherds and teachers who will come up uh in an environment that's like that. If if we're just talking APEST, it's like no, we've got to have an environment that allows everyone with their giftedness to be nurtured and elevated so that they can be used for the body.

Yeah, that's interesting applying APEST in that context. Uh I don't I don't have the brain capacity here at the end of the day to totally unpack that. But that that would be an interesting uh conversation too. We love uh we love Allen Hirsch and um and our our APEST friends over at 5Q and uh Allan's been a been a supporter uh of of the Church Digital and his his work in the five-fold uh ministry. APEST has been uh is is revolutionary for us and and we we tie it in into our trainings tightly and uh and and excited to um to to leverage that uh within the kingdom working digital space. And so that's that's that's really cool.

Five-fold is just is is close to the heart. So you you just

But like I said, man, listen, I mean, I appreciate even even you, Lane. I appreciate you taking a break and and stepping in. I've been uh I've got a I've got a day bed here in in the office and I've just been unconscious. Uh had I had the the speakers on so I could hear what was going on, set an alarm to wake up in time. Uh but my my body was like, "No, you're you're you're done."

Well, good. I was happy to jump in and be able to help out. Uh soon as soon as I you know knew you were in the hospital, I'm like, "Okay, we need a backup plan. If Jeff's not there, what what do we need to do?" I was talking with Andy. I don't know if he told you that. And I was saying, "Do we do we have this? Are we ready? Are we ready to move something?" He's like, "We'll be ready." So,

Yeah, we'll figure it out. Um, and and you know, Jeff, my I'm sorry speaking myself in third person, and that's weird. Don't do that. Um, how I you know, how I handle how I lead um needs to change. You know, it needs to adapt. It needs to um needs needs to grow. I can't I can't lead like I used to in my 20s. I can't lead like I used to in my 30s or or even I can't lead like I did, you know, earlier this year. I've I've got to, you know, pivot and uh and and and learn from the season and evolve from it. And that to me, that's one of the things I I love about our our leadership team. You know, you um Ian, Andy, uh Jason, even even Stacy. Uh y'all are not afraid to question anything and uh you know and I've I've I've encouraged that on a regular basis. Don't don't just sit there. Ask the question. Ask the hard awkward uh and my gosh even even um uh purpose uh you know coming in from from Nigeria asking those hard questions as well. And so you know I know um I think Ian when I was in the hospital Ian was kind of like poking the bear. You know, Jeff, you're you're in a hospital bed. How are you really gonna do this? I'll be fine. No, really, Jeff. How are you gonna do this? Okay, look, there's there's a plan there. There's ways that we can get some help. And so, yes, I do appreciate you stepping in uh taking uh taking the reigns for a while and running with it. So, so Leighton, man, thanks for doing what you're doing. Um if you're interested in supporting Leighton and what he's doing, um the church.digital/team uh is is uh their team page. Leighton's on there and I know there's a link to Reliant on that page, the church.digitalteam or what's a good way to get connected with you, Leighton?

Well, it would be Leightonthechurch.digital, which is Li GT. That's going to be the easiest way. If I give Reliance out there, it's get a little more complicated and all of that, but yeah, if you reach out, you'll find me. Join join the fam. Uh, I spend most of my time on Discord. I am in the WhatsApp community as well. Uh you reach out, you at me, you know, we'll have a conversation, we'll set up a time, we'll do something. Uh if you're just like if you want to just have a session that's just like out there and it doesn't matter what we talk about and you want to just like brainstorm a bunch of crazy ideas, I would love that. Uh if you want practical things of who's doing something, I'll do that, too. Like I I am up for anything. I love to hear what God is up to. I love to hear people process through what God might be up to and what might just be indigestion from last night. Um, they're both great conversations, so I'll take either one of them.

What might be indigestion from last night? Now, as a guy who has indigestion now on a regular basis, yeah. Awesome. Is God speaking or indigestion? We'll find out in a couple months.

That that we'll find out. We'll find out.

Yeah. Leighton, thanks for hanging out with us, bro. Appreciate it.

Absolutely, man. Take care.

Yeah. And and he's gone. Leighton, thank you, my friend, for for hanging out with with me here for uh a big chunk of the show. And so, it's it's been yeah. I hope you're you're you're getting a a broad a big picture of of what God is doing uh digitally and virtually. We're doing something different in order to reach someone different. We're we're engaging with people who are building relationships via using digital tools to uh towards the purpose of evangelism and and discipleship. It's a relational approach. It's not a consumer-driven mentality, but but the goal is is to use these platforms recognize and this is something that I love that Christian Ninja said maybe half an hour ago. He he said, "Recognize that these platforms have cultures and that there's there's a difference between using digital to reach people who play Sudoku, Utope, versus somebody who's in Final Fantasy, Pastor Coco or Virtual Reality or um you know, Grand Theft Auto, whatever." Like the platforms themselves have culture and and I can remember the the really the first time now let's listen we've we've all known that but in in the in the Church Digital circle there I mean listen okay Jeff I don't okay maybe you don't know that let me back up I mean the most obvious thing that I can say is hey let's look at Facebook and let's look at uh I don't I don't know TikTok are you going to use Facebook and TikTok are the same people using Facebook and TikTok? No. Are you going to use Facebook and TikTok the same way? No. You're going to recognize that there's different cultures of the people that are engaging on those platforms, and you're going to use the the platforms in a unique way to reach the cultures of the people that are engaging there. And and so we were sitting around uh one one day at leadership and talking about this and Jason Morris is like, well, it's kind of like platforms as places. And um and and you know it when Jason talks it it's it's like okay I I need we need to stop and we need to to to listen because there there's really something intelligent that that's about to come down. We we just we need to understand it and and and this this idea of of platforms as places. It's just one of these things and and Jason and starts to unpack this this idea of of how as as a digital missionary sending agency in the Church Digital, we're really engaging in in the in the idea of of platforms being the new places just like a a missionary agency is going to look at India, China, Brazil is how we the Church Digital.

We're going to look at Facebook, TikTok, uh virtual reality, video games, uh you know, Roblox, whatever. Whatever the platform is, it's recognizing that there's culture on those platforms.

And even those cultures, even those platforms are a place that deserves the gospel that deserves the church. Um, you know, even the sin-filled virtual reality of VR Chat, even Grand Theft Auto, even some of these um even some of these cultures need Christ.

And and and so how do we uh take the gospel? How do we take the church? How do we reach people in those cultures?

And that's really the heart behind the church digital like we've been showing a lot of outpost leaders from, you know, Utopia to some of our our uh Indian friends.

We've got uh Tariq coming up soon in Pakistan. And that's exciting to see how God is moving regionally. Uh Steve reaching some of the who he's reaching with uh the Legacy Outpost group, but the the future, the opportunities are far more of what Leighton's doing in gaming as we start to lean into this idea of platforms as places. Now, this is a really unique concept. Uh and to be honest, this is what, you know, gets us some heat.

Uh so to speak. You know, that's controversial maybe uh you know, anytime you're trying to question um and uh and and bring up some new ideas to what are established um concepts.

Well, you know, it's interesting globally people are far more open to us in these ideas than than America. Uh but what we did recently was we did a conference uh the church digital did a a digital missionary conference that was uh based on this platforms as places idea.

We called it digital neighborhoods. And we've got uh we've got I wanted to show here a couple keynotes. I'm going to for Leighton's point I'm going to speed it up here.

Get a little faster. But we're going to do a couple keynotes that I'm going to share right up here off the top. Um, that's uh Jason Morris uh talking about the idea of platforms as places and then afterwards we're going to show Jeff Vanderstelt talking about um uh well you're going to we'll get into gospel fluency here in in a little bit but for this conversation you know what let me push a button here and and make sure that this is in fact going to work because I've been been having a glitch glitch.

All right. So, for the for this uh I'm going to introduce uh by the way, $20,000 to fully fund one of the digital missionary conferences so that ideas like what we're about to show you get out in front of thousands of people globally.

I mean, that's that's literally what we're saying is is that to fully fund one global digital missionary conference cost about $20,000, which allows these ideas to get in front of thousands of people in a hundred countries globally.

Like this is the influence. This is not like what we could do. This is what we're already doing and we're asking you to join us in that.

So here, check out this video uh uh this session from Jason Morris uh speaking on platforms as places. Here you all that button I need to change the color of that button.

It always changes. Here you here you all go. This particular conference. I designed it with the people that are current in the keynotes and the topics and the themes that are currently blowing my mind when when I'm listen I if you know me you know I've been doing digital missions work for 25 years.

I had a calling to be a digital pastor way back in 1992 and I've dedicated my life pretty much to that ever since I was 13 14 years old.

And so and when me a guy that's been doing this as long as I have when my mind gets blown I want to invite some people to share with others.

And and over the course of this past year, I I've I've been building up this incredible concept of what we're going to talk about today with I got chills just thinking about this.

Think talking about digital neighborhoods and and how we need to revisit what digital culture looks like, how it trumps physical culture, and even beyond that, if culture is different digitally, what is the gospel look like in that space?

And how should we as digital missionaries engage differently digitally than a physical missionary would in a physical environment? This is the topics we're going to get into today.

Some so listen, Jason is an incredible technological person. We were talking offline about AI designing and coding. Like it it just my mind blows just talking to J on a regular basis.

Some of the other speakers are not as technically proficient, but the concepts there work we're going to talk about today, tying it into your digital mission work, I promise you I promise you it's going to challenge you.

So right off the bat, I want to bring on J Morris to the church digital equipping and mobilization director because I want him to share this idea of platforms as places as we're starting this idea, this theme centered around digital neighborhoods.

JCO, you good? I'm good, man. Let's rock and roll. Peace out. Have a good one. All right. Uh, thanks everybody. So pumped to be here with you guys.

Um, if we haven't met, my name is Jason Morris. I'm the equipping director here at the church.digital and over the years got started back in 94 with a 9600 B modem telling people about Jesus back in the day.

Um, up until today been doing the same thing. My mission is to catalyze the digital collective might of Jesus church and leverage that for global gospel saturation.

I love the fact of all the people from all around the world who are joining us and I am so grateful that I get to be a part of this global organization of the church.digital going around the world and making a difference for Jesus.

Um, as we go through some of this material, this is some of the things that we talk about in our training. Um, and one of the principles, one of the pillars that we have in our digital neighborhoods conversation hearkens back to that basic pillar of platforms as places.

These may not be as different as one might think. When one thinks of a place, um, they normally don't think of a digital place, except for this crew right here that's listening to me right now.

A lot of times we do think of it as a place, a platform, a digital platform could actually be a place. In fact, um, this year about a month ago, um, the Bible Society put out a report.

The name of the report was called the digital nations, which um, they've noticed some of the same things we here at the church.digital have noticed that, um, people spend a lot of time online.

Um, and that particular I'm gonna I'm gonna share that link with you so that you can have it because there's a lot of really great insights in there.

I'm gonna pop that in the chat real quick. You should see that right there. Um, back to this content. Um, what if place and time aren't as disconnected as we think?

Um, because place, think about this for a minute, implies time. Why is it that missionaries have a sense of a calling to a place?

It's because Jesus didn't come to save geography. He came to save people. And the great commission, go and make disciples of all nations. It's not countries, it's ethnic groups.

The Greek word there is ethnos. Um the idea meaning because the United States of America, most of the countries that you're probably a part of didn't even exist when Jesus said that.

Um Jesus came to save people. Now what happens is he he came to save the people that save the lost. Um what happens is where are the people, right?

Normally we would think of them as people are in places, but today in today's digital world, where are the people? They're on their phones.

You you're you might be on your phone right now. Um and the idea of place is where people spend time. When you work at a spot, that is your place.

Um when you spend enough time in one place, it starts to become your identity. Whether you spend a lot of time in Texas and then you consider yourself a Texan.

It all goes back to time though. Um if you spend a lot of time playing games, you consider yourself a gamer. You might consider yourself a YouTuber because of all the time that you spend on YouTube or a TikTok influencer.

Where you spend your time is where that becomes your identity. That becomes your place. And if you get enough people that have that same identity, then you have a subculture.

You have yourself an ethnos. So, as we look at the average amount of time that people spend online, anywhere between six and eight hours a day, the America um in the American uh you would think as an American you would spend more, but we're about average.

The highest one where they spend the most of time online is actually in Africa. In South Africa, they spend the most amount of time online.

Um lots of really crazy places that spend an inordinate amount of time online. You spend enough time there, that becomes your place because that's where you're basically living your life.

Your life is time more than it is place. So as we think of platforms as places, we're looking at digital platforms as places. And particularly in this conference, we're talking about digital neighborhoods because it's not just big arenas.

We're talking about the people that you can interact with, the people that you can have conversations with because if you can have a conversation, you can have a spiritual conversation.

And if you can have a spiritual conversation, you can do discipleship. So what we're talking about is unifying these two ideas together of digital neighborhoods.

Now let's talk about the first of those two words in this conference. Let's talk about digital. I believe that Jesus is our CTO. He is the chief technology officer of our universe.

He is lord. He is king. And technology is a gift from God. The word technology comes from two Greek words. Um one is techno techn which is craft.

Think Minecraft, right? Craft or like Jesus was he was called a carpenter, a a tecton. That is uh in Greek he um is one that does craft with tools.

Now think about that for a minute. Jesus did his craft with tools. Hm. All right. Technology. The second part of the word lokia, theory or science of something.

Um, it should hearken back to you the idea that we find in John 1:1 where Jesus is called the word in the beginning was the word.

The word was with God. The word was God. That is the same word logos there. Loia, the theory, the science of the craft, technology.

You can't even say the word technology without referring to Jesus twice. And when you think of Jesus as the tecton, the one who has created this universe that he leverages for his purposes, it sounds a lot like an engineer or a developer.

Jesus Christ is CTO of his universe. So let's follow his pattern on how he thinks about tools and how they can be leveraged for the gospel.

And I'm going to share a passage of scripture with you and I want you to see it through this lens that we just talked about.

Luke 5:1-4. This is when Jesus is calling the first disciples. It says there, "One day Jesus was preaching on the shore of the Sea of Galilee.

Great crowds pressed on him, listening to the word of God. And he noticed two empty boats on the water's edge, for the fishermen had left them, and they were washing their nets.

Jesus looked at the tools. He looked at the creation in a different way. And stepping into one of the boats, Jesus asked Simon, its owner, to push it out into the water.

So he sat on the boat, taught the crowds from there. And when he had finished speaking, well, wait, before we get there, Jesus saw a place, Peter's boat, as a platform for the gospel, as a tool to expand his kingdom.

And that's what a tecton does. He thinks about his craft. He thinks about his tools. And that's exactly what Jesus was doing right here.

Now, when he had finished speaking, he said, "Simon, now go out where it's deeper and let down your nets to catch some fish." Now, here's this is this is a cool idea.

Well, we a lot of times feel like Jesus is not interested in what we do. He's not interested in the games we play. He's not interested in the streams we have and we broadcast.

Jesus probably knows more about it than we give him credit for. Because in this particular passage, he does a really big mind trick on Simon, on Peter.

And he says, "Master," Simon replied, "we worked so hard last night. Didn't catch a thing. But if you say so, I'll let the nets down again. You know, just to prove you wrong." And this time, their nets were so full of fish they began to tear. And shout to help brought their partners in the other boat.

And soon both boats were filled with fish on the verge of sinking. Now, there's a from the survey that we did at the town hall about a month ago. Here's all the platforms. Here's all the places that Jesus is leveraging you digital missionary for the gospel. A lot of times we tend to think that Jesus isn't about all of that.

But here's the question. If Jesus asked you to leverage what you know, what you have around you at your disposal, your place, your game, your stream, your feed, if Jesus asked you to leverage that, what could he do with it?

Do you trust Jesus to bring you followers, subs, not just fish? Allow Jesus in your spaces. And start seeing the spaces that you have in the way that Jesus does.

Even if it's counterintuitive, even if your training and experience tell you otherwise, Jesus is big enough and powerful enough to take care of you and what's around you.

And when you do, you'll see miracles happen. And you'll get a sense of, "Oh, Jesus, I don't know if that's for me. I don't know if I'm good enough."

Well, that is exactly how Peter felt. When Simon Peter realized what had happened, he fell to his knees before Jesus said, "Oh Lord, please leave me. I'm such a sinful man. This doesn't make any sense. You just blew my mind. I don't even know what to do here." Um, for he was awestruck by the number of fish they caught, as were others with him.

Now, here's what I love about this passage. They Jesus was trying to teach Peter something that he is chief technology officer of the universe. He is the creator. He can use the tools in every way he wants to. And when the abundance came, when the blessing came, it was bigger than he could handle.

And he needed his friends. And that is what TCD provides for you. That's what this group provides for you is other boats, other friends that can help you, be with you, stream with you, um, celebrate with you.

Now, his partners in uh, verse 10, James and John, sons of Zebedee, were also amazed. Jesus replied to Simon, "Don't be afraid." That's what Jesus is telling you right now.

From now on, you'll be fishing for people. Jesus saw Peter's tools differently. Jesus wants to see your digital tools used to further his kingdom.

And it says as soon as they landed, they left everything and followed Jesus. So what Peter saw as a boat, his place, Jesus saw as a platform for the gospel.

What Peter thought of as an identity being a fisherman. Jesus saw as leverage for greater mission, bigger things. Jesus asked permission to use the place Peter had.

Just like Jesus is probably asking you to use the places, the WhatsApp groups, the games that you play and use it in ways that you have never imagined.

What if instead of thinking of it as a place, Jesus sees it as a platform for the gospel. So now we're back to platforms as places with digital neighborhoods.

We talked about digital. Now let's talk about neighborhoods. So when you talk about neighborhoods, you can't think of neighbor, the idea of neighbor without thinking of the idea of the good Samaritan.

And we find that in Luke chapter 10 couched in the greatest commandment. So don't disconnect those two ideas. It says in verse 25, one day an expert of religious law stood up before Jesus asking him the question, "Teacher, what should I do to inherit eternal life?" And Jesus said, "What does the law of Moses say? How do you read it?" The man answered, you must love the Lord your God with all your heart, all your soul, with all your strength, with all your mind.

Love your neighbor as yourself. Interesting how he added that addition from other passages of scripture. This is what the man said. And Jesus totally tracking with him said, right?

Do this and you'll live. Now the man wanted to justify his actions. And this is just reality. This is what all of us want to do, right?

Because the commission, the mission that Jesus has for us is a big one. It feels overwhelming. And so we want to make it easier.

So this guy says the same thing. He asked Jesus, "Who is my neighbor?" And now Jesus tells the story as we know famous parable, the good Samaritan.

But don't disconnect that from the greatest commandment. Love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul, mind, love your neighbor as yourself. Don't disconnect those two ideas because here we go.

Jesus replied with the story. A Jewish man was traveling from Jerusalem down to Jericho. Was attacked by bandits. They stripped him of his clothes, beat him up, left him half dead beside the road.

By chance, a priest came along. I don't think Jesus chose that particular person by accident in the story. The priest was thinking that all of ministry happens in one particular place.

He had his blinders on. That place of ministry was the temple, a physical place that had boundaries, putting a box around God. By chance, a priest came along, but when he saw the man lying there, he crossed over on the other side of the road and passed him by.

We don't know why he did that. Maybe he had a lot of work to do. Maybe, you know, it was time for temple services and he didn't have time to deal with it.

I have been a pastor. I know what that feels like where sometimes the work of the ministry keeps me from the ministry itself when it comes to dealing with people that are all around me because I have a schedule to keep.

I have work to do. I have an agenda. So, I don't necessarily blame the priest here, but Jesus is strategically selecting this particular mode of ministry, place-based, contained ministry, and calling it out.

Next verse, a temple assistant. In some other translations, you'll see that as a Levite. That's all it was. So, you got the head hunch and you got his assistant, right?

Assistant walked over, looked at him lying there, but he also passed on the other side. Same thing. Then the despised Samaritan. And I love I love how Jesus calls him despised Samaritan.

Samaritans were half Jew, half Gentile, having their foot, one foot in the Jewish tradition, the other foot in the Gentile world. And I feel like so many of us feel just like the Samaritan.

We feel despised. We feel if those of us who are in hybrid ministry especially, you have one foot in the digital world, another foot in the physical world.

You feel that tension all the time. Nobody seems to get you and you feel a little rejected because of it. In the survey that we took in the town hall, that's what you expressed to us.

And let me tell you, I know what that tension feels like. And you have just found your tribe because we are all a bunch of misfits.

One with one foot in the digital world, the other foot in the physical world. We feel that tension and sometimes we're despised because of it.

This is what Jesus tells about it. And when he saw the man, he felt compassion for him. And then going over to him, the Samaritan, soothed his wounds with olive oil and wine, bandaged them, and he put the man on his own donkey, took him to the inn where he took care of him. The next day, he handed the innkeeper two silver coins, telling him, "Take care of this man. If the bill runs higher than this, I'll pay you the next time I'm here." This guy, the despised one, the misfit, he was the one that saw the opportunities of ministry all around him instead of being locked in with his blinders on about place-based contained ministry. The reality is in the digital spaces, it's you interact with people all around you that are hurting and you see them and you see them differently.

Um, and there I know that there are some of you that are paying your own money for your own platforms to bring the light of Jesus to others and you people don't understand and that's okay.

That's okay. You have just found your tribe because that's what all of us do together. Now, next verse. When which of these three Jesus says would you say was a neighbor to the man who was attacked by bandits?

The man replied, the one who showed him mercy. It's about compassion and it's about mercy. It's not about place. And Jesus says, "Yes, now go do the same." The reality of this is that you can pass more digital neighbors in a 15-second scroll than you could walk past physically in a 15-minute stroll.

Now, I'm all about neighborhoods, but let's think about digital neighborhoods. The ones that need your compassion, the ones that need your mercy, especially now in the climate that we live in today.

It bugs me so badly that social media and the internet are being blamed for the hurt and the brokenness in our society today when all that is is an extension a force multiplier of the tongue and the tongue is an overflow of the heart says Jesus.

So what is the real problem here? The real problem is the brokenness in our hearts. And the same force multiplier could be used for people whose heart is overflowing with compassion and mercy to have these tools before us be leveraged just like Jesus did to impact people with compassion and mercy.

It's right before us. Don't demonize the digital. It's not about the tools. It's about your heart. It's about the eyes that Jesus has given you to see the people that are already around you with the tools that are already in your hands to be leveraged for the gospel.

Digital neighborhoods is about going from doom scrolling to kingdom growing where chats can turn into church where DMs are turning into discipleship where winning games can be winning souls.

Now when we talk about digital neighborhoods, did you know that there are 2.4 billion Christians in the world today and only 5% of them have ever led anyone to Christ?

Think about that. Now in the survey we did together about a month ago of our TCD tribe, you know what that percentage is? 33.

Think about that for a little bit. Your average Christian, 95% of them, they don't talk to people about Jesus. That is a real problem.

Dude, we are never going to get the great commission to become the great completion if we don't change that somehow. And this tribe, this group of misfits are the ones that do that.

Because the percentage for us is 33% of us are telling others about Jesus and have led someone to Jesus. In other words, if you're a church digital missionary, you are six times more likely to lead someone to Jesus than if you're not.

Now, we've got this whole plan going on for the rest of this conference together and giving you the tools and the resources and to have your tribe, whether it is in the next session of speaking the gospel into everyday life with fluent faith or tracking spiritual thresholds online, being able to detect where people are at with audience mapping or reproducing leaders for digital mission. Because if you're not making disciples that make disciples that gather into churches that make more disciples, then you're doing it wrong and apprenticing in the wild.

We're giving you the resources. Um, we're giving you the training. We're giving you the tribe. I hope that you take full advantage of this opportunity together with this conference, the digital neighborhoods conference, so that the world can be a different place.

Can you imagine? I mean, we got 98 people here-ish right now. Can you imagine what could happen if all of us work together to leverage our influence, our tools for the sake of the gospel, being empowered by his spirit?

We're going to change the world. I'm telling you, it's going to happen. Can't wait to go on this journey with you. And we have a big wonderful lineup to give you the tribe, the tools, and the training.

I hope you take advantage of it. Let's pray. Jesus, right now, as you see those who have gathered here, as those who are under the sound of my voice, whether it is right now live or watching it later, we know that you are here, that you are sharing your heart with us.

May we be faithful just as Peter was, just as the good Samaritan was to see the opportunities and the tools and the places and the platforms just like you do for your kingdom.

You are the creator. You are the chief technology officer. You are the one who has crafted this universe and you are the one who programmed this universe for your kingdom glory.

May this moment be etched into our souls where you have empowered us and have changed us in ways that we could never imagine. May your vision be cast in our hearts.

And let us join you as you built your church for your glory. May your kingdom come. May your will be done on earth.

It is heaven and it is in Jesus name that we all together say as your children. Type it in the chat. Say it with me.

Amen.

Thanks guys for giving me this opportunity. Oh my gosh. I told you your brain would be blown by it. The idea of turning your Jason. Man, thank you so much for this. Um, as you're transitioning, I don't know any closing thoughts or hey, let's do this.

Um, a tip, something a practical advice. Let's pull this from you for one or two more minutes. How do we go from doom scrolling to prayer walking through that? Like, what is a practical tip for somebody that's interested in doing this, that's overwhelmed by the obsessiveness of social media? How do we turn that to an opportunity to prayer walk?

Maybe on that, bro. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. Here's a tip. All you have to do, and it's not hard to do. There's a couple of ways you can do it.

Um, just go on whatever social media of your choice, you know, whatever one you like the most, right? Start scrolling. You will see people's pain.

Think of them in the way that Jesus sees them. And then use the thread to respond to them personally. If you can do it with video, if you can't do it with video, do it with audio.

If you can't do it with audio, do it with text. But do the following. Pray for them right there. And then after you pray for them, wait for their response.

Wait for other people in that thread to respond. No joke. You do that and you will have probably you could pray for an hour online just responding to the responses with a personal prayer just like one would do a prayer walk.

It's the same thing but you're doing it digitally. That's one tip. Another tip would be you can sometimes have these social media platforms geoence if you want to follow up with people long term.

You can geoence it to people that are within a ten mile radius or you know twelve km radius for those of you internationally around you.

You could have it work in that way so that you can follow up with them in person and use that first digital connection be a way in which you can follow up with people where they are and do the same thing.

You can encounter more digital neighbors in a fifteen second scroll than you can physically in a fifteen minute stroll. You said that today and that just was mind-blowing for me and that is so true.

J Mo, my friend, thank you for jumping on the stream and sharing this today. This has been so good. Somebody should write a book on like sharing Jesus online and oh, wait.

No, I did. And I already did that. Dr. John, you're doing a breakout with Dr. John. Dr. John's going to be on later today.

He and I co-wrote a book on this maybe a couple years ago. It's been a minute towards that. But the idea was bless. You know, we took Dave Ferguson's blessed and his brother John.

But it's begin with prayer and everything that you're talking about is centered around digital and social doing that prayer walk and engaging first spiritually and praying for the people, but not stopping at the spiritual taking a moment.

L is listen to them. Listen to their pain. I can tell you like it's so funny when people troll me. I love it because I get to have a conversation with somebody who's hurting spiritually in a public environment and the troll may not engage in that moment, but you know what?

The people that saw me show grace to that troll, it changes them. And because I have that in a public environment, it's so good because the troll may or may not recognize the need.

But every time I've done it, others around me have said, I saw the grace that you had there. I don't have that. How do I get that?

What do I need to do? Why? Why? Why did you not respond? And it gives an opportunity to even dialogue in a better way.

And so, Jam Mo, man, I know you got to go. I appreciate you. Thanks for doing this great talk here as we're setting the stage for platforms as places.

Appreciate you, my friend. Cool. As Jason transitions off, man, give it up for JO. Throw some encouragement in the chat. Jason Morris has been a friend for years and so excited.

I see the troll. Thank you for putting the troll in chat. I just like so good. Hit the wrong button. Hit the countdown button.

I seriously Jason Morris has been a friend for years. I was not lying. Um an inspiration and a vital part of the church digital team.

Dude was jacked up for that conference, right, man? I don't know if it's because we were listening to it in one point five speed or if he was just really excited when he was doing the platforms as places talk, but dang, he was he was like drinking the coffee, man.

He had his hands going and he was. Listen, it's exciting. It is exciting to get to do what we're doing and to starting to carve out a new way, a new method, a new model and starting to help people like you become a digital missionary and to champion Christ, to champion discipleship, to live a missional life in digital and virtual space. And so, um yeah, definitely excited about that.

Now, this conference, the digital neighborhoods conference that Jason just opened up for, he was the first keynote that we had scheduled.

U now the second person that we had scheduled right after him was a gentleman named Jeff Vanderstelt. So Jeff Vanderstelt uh leads a global he's very connected into the exponential organizations written a book within the past year or so, three sixty uh three sixty disciple I think three sixty degree discipleship uh is very fluent uh oh my gosh no pun intended on that you'll see in a second but uh but it's very fluent in the exponential ecosystem and and you know just in the relationship that I've had with Jeff Vanderstelt has been a supporter of digital missions and digital missionary work.

And so, um, and so Jason, you know, once again, like I if I could just like Jason lives in Texas and we both lead busy lives.

Uh, but if I could like, hey, Jason, let's sit down for coffee once a week and just talk. Oh my gosh, that would be so good.

He puts that time into the church digital instead of uh my little, you know, gab sessions that I would want to have with him.

But one of these sessions where Jason and I were talking, he says, "Oh, that's that, you know, we were talking about like gospel conversations." And he's like, "Well, you know what uh what Jeff Vanderstelt, you know, says about this in his book, and I was like, "No, I don't know what Jeff Vanderstelt says in his book uh called Gospel Fluency." and uh and he goes off to tell me about, you know, Jeff Vanderstelt's taking his book, which by the way blew my mind and was like, "Okay, we need to get Jeff Vanderstelt into this conversation and we've got to have him speak into this." And so, as we were putting together the conference, I was very excited to have Jeff Vanderstelt come on board uh to be um one of the speakers uh for the conference.

And so I'm excited uh to let you now now gospel fluency and platforms as places. You're going to see this come together really quickly.

And so realize this is almost like a one two punch back to back which is why I wanted to share it here with the stream with you all in a back to back fashion.

So uh let me present Jeff Vanderstelt. I think I set him up here on the video a little bit, but here's Jeff Vanderstelt uh talking about gospel fluency. Okay, here you go. Waiting. I have been waiting for at least eight months for what what's about to happen.

Um DJ Morris like I this conference Jeff's brains exploded and we're about to experience round two of Jeff's brains exploding. I'm sitting around with Jason Morris talking about this idea of platforms as places eight months ago.

Casual conversation, you know, I think it was probably a leadership meeting that that we're having with our leadership team. By the way, the church digital leadership team is, you know, multicontinental.

We've never actually been in the same space at the same time. And so, you know, meeting in Google meets, it's just a way of life.

And so, you know, Jason and I are talking and uh and he says, he says, you know what, this is kind of like gospel fluency from Jeff Vanderstelt.

And I was like, I don't what do you mean? and he starts talking about some of the ideology that that Jeff's about to share about how the well I'm not I'm not gonna like tease it too much, but I just want to tell you that my philosophy on evangelism and discipleship shifted as a result of JMO talking about Jeff. And so immediately immediately I reached out to Jeff. He's been a friend from the exponential and and the groups over there and and a supporter of digital ministry and and I reached out to Jeff and I was like, "Hey, I want to have you like do something." And we had just a back and forth for months trying to get the calendars to align. And I am so thankful.

I am so thankful that we were able to get Jeff Vanderstelt to come in and speak today in this session as we're talking about digital neighborhoods and how the gospel is shaped inside digital community because this blew my mind and I cannot wait to get you exposed to this.

That's probably the best setup I can get for Jeff Vanderstelt. And so Jeff, sir, thank you for jumping on the stream here and the stage is yours.

Okay. All right. Thank you so much. Yeah, it's good to be with all of you and I uh yeah, like Jeff said, we tried to figure out our schedules.

I was actually going to have to do a pre-recorded thing and then we were able to work it out that I could just do it live.

So, uh so glad to be here. So excited about what you're all doing in your heart for people coming to know Jesus. Um I'm just going to kind of introduce the idea first of all, gospel fluency.

You see the subtitle, speaking Jesus into everyday life. And the idea there is that um we we we need to learn how to be fluent with the gospel as much as we would learn to be fluent with any other language.

And I don't know if you ever learned a language, but um I learned Spanish years ago. I'm certainly not fluent in it now because I haven't used it.

If you don't use it, you lose it, which is probably true of the gospel as well, frankly. Um, but I got to a place where I remember dreaming in Spanish.

And, um, when you become fluent in something, you you think it, you, you know, dream it, you filter the world through it. It's like the language you use to interpret things.

It's also the language you use to solve problems. And so, this idea of gospel fluency comes from starting first of all with Ephesians 4.

I want to get there in a sec, but I want to ask you to do something before I look at the passage. I just want you to take a moment first before we even go into that concepts to identify a situation you're presently in.

Maybe it's a difficult issue, challenging situation, maybe in your digital space. It's a relationship you're working on that or a person you're caring for, someone you're trying to help them address, something that they're facing, and maybe you personally, like it's something you're working on or facing right now.

And I want you to identify it because I want you to keep it in mind as we do the training because I found that when you can take a real life situation and apply what I'm about to teach, it actually gets more traction than if it's just ethereal ideas.

So take a moment to do that. Even if you have to write it down, type it in, whatever it may be. You don't have to share with everybody. That's not what I'm asking for. You're welcome to, but that's not what I'm asking for. But get it locked in so you know what it is.

Just give you a moment to do that. Okay, hopefully you've got one in mind, a person in mind, a situation in mind, a challenge in mind, a problem you're facing, something you're working on in yourself maybe.

And then the second thing I want you to do with that is I want you just to ask how have you been addressing it?

So let me give you an example. So one of the things in my life was an unreconciled relationship where I had hurt somebody, they had hurt me, I wanted to seek reconciliation, we went through even a mediation process to be able to extend forgiveness. I extended forgiveness. He, this particular friend of mine, refused to and so that was a problem or situation. Now it's been resolved but it took actually sadly several years for it to be resolved.

Well, if I were in your shoes right now listening to this conversation that might have been one that I came up with and the way that I've been addressing it was a variety of things. Sometimes it was trying to control the situation, trying to convince him to forgive. Sometimes it was yeah I was praying for him. I was getting outside counsel. I mean I was doing all kinds of stuff. So I want you to think through the situation you're facing the issue you're in. How have you been addressing it?

What have you been doing? What have you been thinking? How have you been responding? What are you doing to address it right now? So get that in mind. So the issue and the pattern or way in which you've been trying to address it. So keep that in mind as we move forward.

Now back to the idea of gospel fluency. Let me take you to Ephesians 4 and we this is just I want to make sure there's context for this. We see Paul saying he gave some to be apostles, some prophets, evangelists, shepherds and teachers to equip the saints. That's you. That's the people of God for the work of ministry.

That word ministry can also be translated serving in the name of Jesus. So we tend to think ministry sadly is what people do quote unquote in you know paid jobs in churches. But that's not what Paul was talking about at all. He's talking about people who love Jesus who are set apart for his work in any space in the world. That's ministry. And the goal is to then build up the body of Christ till we all reach unity in the faith and the knowledge of God's son, growing in maturity in the stature measured by Christ's fullness.

So we grow up to be Christlike. The church looks more like Jesus. And he continues, so we won't be tossed like little children back and forth by these waves of every kind of teaching and cunning and cleverness and techniques of deceit. No, we want to be solid and movable, mature. And then he continues, the way we do that, he says, is by speaking the truth in love.

Let us grow up in every way into him who is the head, into Christ from who the whole body fit and knit together supports each ligament when each is when it's being equipped and when each part is working properly it then makes the body grow up. The idea here is every member's growing up. Everyone's getting mature. When everybody's doing their role, we help we all help each other grow up.

But the key phrase here that I don't want you to miss is speaking the truth in love. Now, a lot of us, we might have heard that at one point in our life where we're like, "Yeah, you know, I remember being in a relationship and it was difficult or a friendship or in a group and we we, you know, we finally said, 'Hey, brother or sister or friend, you know, I need to speak the truth in love with you.' And what it meant was like, 'I've got a hard direct word and I'm just going to do it hopefully in a gentle kind way.' And those things do need to happen. But I don't think that's primarily or exclusively what Paul's talking about here. Because later on in the same chapter after he talks about the way of the Gentiles and how we don't go in that way, we go in a very different way.

He says this, this is not the way that you came to know Christ assuming you heard about him and were taught by him as the truth is in Jesus. So when Paul says speak the truth in love, he's basically saying speak the truth of Jesus to every situation. And here's another way to think about it.

If we're going to grow up in every way into Christ, we've got to learn how to speak and also I'd say demonstrate. So it's not just our words, but also our actions, the very truths of Jesus into everything. And I would make the case that where we are not speaking the truth of Jesus or the gospel of Jesus, the good news about Jesus into areas of our life, those will be the areas that will not look like Jesus.

Or we're trying to serve other people and speak truth into them, if we're not bringing the truth of Jesus into their life, they're probably going to grow up in something else. And we see this all over the place. We see Christians who parts of their life look like Jesus and then a whole bunch of other parts of their life look like their political party.

Not trying to get political, but it's like they they look more like their peers than they do Jesus in that thing. Or they look more like a philosophy than they do like Jesus in that thing. Or the way they manage or handle their finances look nothing like Jesus because they got all their training or development from something that doesn't include Jesus or doesn't represent the truth of Jesus.

But what Paul is saying is if we're going to grow up into the fullness of Christ and into maturity and Christ likeness, we've got to learn how to speak the good news of Jesus into absolutely every nook and cranny of our life. And that's what I mean by gospel fluency. And the thing I want you to do is just stop and ask this question. Maybe even think about the situation or issue that I encourage you to identify and just ask, how much has the good news of Jesus saturated your life?

I mean, how much does the truth of Jesus apply to everything you're facing? How much does the truth of who he is and what he's done and who you are in Christ get applied to the issues and the struggles and the challenges you're facing? Or do you find yourself moving away from Jesus in all those other areas? You apply worldly wisdom or maybe just a proven practice or maybe the council of others, but you really don't look like Jesus or remember the truths of Jesus for a lot of stuff you're going through.

And so that's the question I want you to ask as we keep going because here's the deal. You and I will talk about what we love most. Like we most talk about what we most love. And if you just think about the last 24 hours and think about how many conversations you had whether it was in digital spaces or using your devices um you know chatting texting whatever it may be or you know maybe even physically being with someone having a conversation like the question is what have you been talking about? What's been the center of your conversation? What's been oozing out of your heart?

Because crisis it's out of the overflow of the heart that the mouth speaks and that the idea there is you will be speaking about what you love the most. I remember when I first met my wife and I was absolutely smitten and everywhere I went I was talking about her and I was a youth pastor at the time, our senior pastor and I went on a hike and like for two and a half days that's all I'm talking about.

Finally says, "Would you just shut up? Like, go marry the girl. I'm tired of hearing about this." And the truth is, like, you just you just talk about it. Like, whether it's sports that you love, your, you know, your kids, your your spouse, your friends, your grandkids. Like, nobody struggles to talk about what they love most.

And so, if you're thinking about, man, how do I start becoming more fluent in sharing the gospel to people or even to my own struggles in my life? The question is, has the gospel has the good news of Jesus so captured your affections that you just can't stop talking about it? Now, here's something that I've learned.

We also sometimes grow cold in our love. We we forget what drew us first in the, you know, drew us to somebody or to Jesus in the first place. And that happened even in my marriage. I remember there was a season I my love was growing cold. I was talking to older gentlemen about my marriage and the struggles.

And he said, "Hey, remind me again why you married Janie. Like what was it about her that you loved?" And I started talking about all the things that I love. And the more that I talked about the things I love, the more that my heart grew warm again. And I found myself going, "Man, I really do love Jade. This is amazing. This is the woman I wanted to spend my life with." What happened? Well, we not only talk about what we love most, but oftentimes if we don't talk about it, we lose our love for it.

In other words, the more that I talked about all the beauty and all the splendor and all the wisdom and all the joy of being with this amazing woman, the more that my heart grew in affection for her. So, I would just offer up as you're thinking about growing in gospel fluency in terms of the the process of it. Not only pay attention to what you talk about because it's going to reveal your affections, but start getting around people who talk about Jesus a lot because the more that you talk about why why he's so amazing, why his work is so like worth giving your life to, why you adore him so much. The more that you talk about him, the more that you'll love him.

And so, it goes both ways. We talk about what we love most, but we start to love what we talk about most, which is why you want to get yourself in a Hey everybody. Hey Jeff. Um, we had a screw up. We accidentally muted you on our side and so I apologize for that. Back up 30 seconds.

Yeah. Yeah. Keegan's laughing at me. That's cool. I'm actually It's so funny. I'm wearing a t-shirt cuz I don't want to mess up my nice shirt. I'm having lunch. Um, sorry Jeff. Our bad. Back up 30 seconds and unmute yourself. Back up 30 seconds and keep going. Even the pros screw up y'all. Like that. This is a thing. Jeff, can you hear me now?

I can. I apologize. You are on a roll. You are throwing it. Keep going. Back up 30 seconds and and roll with it, sir.

Where did you lose me? Was it when I was talking about my uh talking about what you love most with my wife?

Back up. Back up one slide. Hit the end of it and then roll.

Great. Great. So, we talked about what we love most. That one. Uh I was making a case that you what what you love most which capture your affections will come out of your heart. Uh that it will be the thing that you you can't stop talking about. So, stop and just think about what you talk about the most and ask yourself is that what's most capture your affection?

Is it Jesus? Is it the truth of what he's done? Uh, who you are in Christ and how he's changed everything. I was telling the story. If I, if I repeat myself, I'm sorry, but about my wife.

When I first met her, I couldn't stop talking about her. But later on in our marriage, my love started to grow cold. And I had an older guy come to me and say, "Man, tell me all the reasons why you, you, you know, fell in love with her in the first place." And as I shared all these things, I realized my heart began to be warm again towards her. My affections were stirred up and I just then I couldn't stop not only talking about her, but growing in my affection for her.

And I think when it comes to growing in gospel fluency, we want to both pay attention to what we talk about because what we talk about will reveal what's captured our affections. But if our affections aren't stirred up for Jesus, then we got to be with people who will ask, "Remind me again. Why is it that you first became a Christian? What was it that drew you to Christ? Why? Why do you adore him so much?" And the more that we talk about all that he is and all that he's done and all that we have in Christ, the more our affections get stirred up for him.

And here's the reality. It's all the overflow of the heart that the mouth speaks. So it's not hard to speak about Jesus in these digital spaces that need to hear about Christ when our affections are stirred up for him on a regular basis because it will just overflow out of your life. But if it's not coming out of your mouth, it's probably not in your heart. You're not being captured by these affections. So we talk about what we love most, but we also uh have to keep stirring up our affection.

So what comes out of us will be our affection for Jesus. And then here's the other thing that I know is true. You also talk about what you believe works. Um, you know, whether it's the newest gadget you've got, the game you're playing, the, you know, the tool you have, the vehicle you drive, whatever you think works great, you're going to talk about it.

And that's why Paul says, "I'm not ashamed of the gospel, for it's the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes." He's saying, "The reason why it's not hard for me to talk about it is because it's the thing that transforms everything." And so I would ask the question, are you experiencing the power of the gospel transforming every aspect of your life? Because if you're not, you'll primarily talk about the part that you think it did transform, which is why a lot of people talk about, you know, are you sure about where you're going to go after you die? Because man, I at least it transformed my afterlife. But the gospel is meant to transform every aspect of your life. And so I want you to keep in your mind all the situation that I ask you to identify and the way that you've been addressing it.

And I'm just going to walk through what the gospel includes and why it has good news for probably more than the one issue that you identified. And remember, the gospel means good news. I, the people I teach in my own little church regularly, I say, um, if it doesn't sound like good news, it's not the gospel.

And of course, there'll be some who push back like, "Yeah, but there's bad news in the gospel. Like, you got to talk about sin in order to get the good news." I would say, "Yeah, but sin isn't the gospel. Sin is why we need the gospel." Yes, we'll need to talk about the problem. But the gospel isn't sin. The gospel is that we're saved from our sin.

The gospel is that there's good news setting us free from the shackles of sin. And so if it never sounds like good news, it's possible you're not actually proclaiming the gospel. And I know there's some of you listening going, "Yeah, but didn't Paul say it's foolishness to those who are perishing?" And I always say, "Yeah, it's foolishness, not bad news." The idea of foolishness is it's too good to be true. I can't hardly accept it. How could it be that? And so I always tell people if it doesn't, if it doesn't sound like good news in your own heart when you're saying it to somebody else, you should back up.

And there's probably a few things you should ask. One, have I listened long enough to these people I'm with to know what they actually need and what would sound like good news about Jesus that I could give to them? Because if you listen long enough, you go, "Oh my goodness, they need to know this about Jesus. They need to hear what he's done or how much he loves them or what he could do for them." You know, when you get to that place, you're like, "Gosh, I can't wait to tell them."

So when if you don't sense it's good news, then I would slow down. Maybe you need to listen longer so you actually know what they need and how Jesus is what they need. But the other side of it is maybe we haven't thought through the breadth and the depth and the length of the gospel that it's not just, you know, limited to justification by faith. That's real. It's not just limited to good news after I die. That's real. But it's got so much more. And so just want to remind you it includes the life of Jesus.

When we think about his life, we think about a real human who did, went through everything you and I go through. Hebrews 4 says, "We have a high priest who's able to sympathize, which means he's able to feel with you what you're feeling because he was tested in every way just like you and me. And therefore, we can go to him in our time of need." And so the life of Jesus is part of the good news.

It's not just his death. It's that he lived our life. Yes, he lived our life and he lived it, you know, as a righteous man without sin and completed the work God gave him to do, which is really good. So he is our hope for being made righteous before God. In him we are righteous. But also don't miss it. He is a human who went through what you went through, who's felt what you feel.

And so maybe even that's what you need to hear, you need to give to someone else today or in the coming days in these digital spaces you're in. It's like I want you to know there's a God who mourns. And that's why he says, "Blessed are those who mourn for they will be comforted." Because Jesus was a man of sorrows, acquainted with grief. He wept over Israel. He knows what it's like to lose things. He lost his friend and then he raised him from the dead, Lazarus.

But if you don't, if you don't slow down in that passage, Jesus is so present in the sadness of Mary that he weeps with her. And he does that for you and me. He was wounded. He knows what it's like to be hurt. His friends abandoned him. They betrayed him, denied him, rejected him. So he knows what it's like to be in that space. He knows what it's like to be lonely. He cries out, "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?" from the cross. So maybe some of you are like, "Man, there's these issues I'm going through. Does he know what it's like to feel pain, to feel loss, to feel abandoned? Did he get angry? Yes, he did. Um, and so maybe that, what you need in terms of the good news of Jesus is just to go, there's somebody who understands what you're going through, feels what you feel and didn't just feel it. We'll get to the resurrection. He's alive. He's present right now in me to feel it with you. Jesus doesn't want you to know you don't have to be alone in this.

And he wants you to know the human experience is not something he's a foreigner to. Now, there's a lot more we could talk about in the life of Jesus. His obedience in our place. There's so much, but we'll just move on to the death now. Uh, that we know in the death we've got uh him putting himself in our place, taking on our sin, uh, not only dying for sin, but also putting to death death, putting to death the power of sin, defeating the evil one as he's buried in the tomb. And so the burial of Jesus is really important because what does he do? He takes all that we've done and he buries it there and he comes out in the resurrection without it. So the death is important because he died in our place and he put to death death and sin and its power.

But the burial is so important because he left it there. Uh, he buried it all there and we, if we're in Christ, have been raised with Jesus to new life. So our sin, our guilt, our shame, it's in the tomb. It's not our identity. It's not how he sees us. God sees us now in Christ. And that's why we're co-heirs with Christ. And the good news about his resurrection that he has overcome Satan's sin and death. And Paul says in Romans 8, if we now have the spirit of God in us that enables us to cry out, "Abba, Daddy, Father," we also have the spirit that raised Jesus from the dead. So all the power of the resurrection is now in us by his spirit. And Jesus said, "Those who believe in me are going to do the same works that I do." So maybe your issue is like I'm facing what seems like an insurmountable situation or I'm dealing with sin that I just can't get over. And Paul is really clear. You have the same power in you that Jesus had in him and it's in his resurrection that that power over Satan, sin, and death is now the power for you to overcome anything you're facing.

And here's the good news. He ascended to the right hand of the Father and he says if I go then I'll send my spirit. So when he ascended, not only is he there representing you as an advocate before God the Father forever, but he's also giving you all that you need for every situation you'll ever face. So his ascension is now I've sent my spirit. I'm now praying on your behalf. If you wonder if someone's praying for you, Jesus is praying for you right now.

And he knows exactly what you need. He knows what you're going to say before you say it, what you think before you think it, and what you need before you even face it. And he wants to give you everything you need to be able to walk the life he's saved you to walk. And the good news is he's going to return and make all things new.

And so maybe even the situation you're facing like, you know, is it ever going to change? I mean, I'll tell you what, some of the times for me, the good news of the gospel is it's not going to stay like it is today. It is going to change. He is going to transform all things. The old will become new. We'll be living in a new heaven and a new earth.

Now, I did that really fast. I usually train this stuff in a day. I have a whole book about it. But what I want you to do is I just want you to stop and think about your situation and how you've been addressing it and ask yourself, have I been addressing with any of these truths, the truth of Jesus' life, his death, his burial, his resurrection, his ascension, his return? And I promise you that all of that contains all that you need for whatever you're facing.

And the goal is to say, "Holy Spirit, would you help me?" That's the job of the Holy Spirit is to bring to our mind the things that are true of Jesus to our situations, to our struggles, to say, "Holy Spirit, would you remind me of the good news of Jesus for the thing I'm addressing either in my life or in the people that you've surrounded me with?" So I just want to encourage you to ask that question in light of your situation.

How would these truths bring, how would these truths about Jesus bring good news to the thing you're facing right now? Now, a good practice to engage in is to do that in with some other people and just practice sharing like here's an issue. How does the good news of Jesus apply to that issue? Go. Let's talk about that. Now, here's another exercise I'll give you as I'm coming to a bit of a close.

I will regularly go back to this kind of categorical way of describing the different aspects of the gospel. And I'll just take one of them and say, "Okay, why is the life of Jesus good news to us?" That's a good thing to go do.

You could do this in a chat. You could do this in a group, whatever it may be. But let's just what's one thing that's good news about the life of Jesus?

Someone might say, "He feels what we feel." Great. How is that good news? And then I usually say someone else answer. It might be, well, because he feels what we feel.

It means that my feelings matter to Jesus. Great. Why is that good news? Well, if my feelings matter to Jesus, then Jesus actually going to care for anything I ever go through.

Yes. Why is that good news? And I'll just keep asking, why is it good news? Why is it good news? Why is it good news?

And what you're doing is you're just drilling down as deep as you possibly can on just one aspect of the gospel. And if you were to practice that over and over and over again all the different aspects of the gospel, you'll find the breadth and the depth of the good news of Jesus is inexhaustible. And what's great about that is the more you do that and practice that, the more ways you'll have to share the good news of Jesus, not just to your life, but to the lives of those that are surrounding you all the time.

So I'll end there. I got a few more things I could share, but I think that's probably enough for today. Um, love for you to practice applying this and see how it goes as you put it to practice in your everyday life.

No, I love this. By the way, uh Jeff does have the book. He mentioned it in the talk. I'll go ahead and put here. Gospel Fluency by Jeff Vanderstelt. Uh thank you, Jeff, for speaking on this. Um I'm going to ask a follow-up question that I really want to tie this together.

Um but grab that book on Amazon, Kindle, uh paperback, whatever. I use the Amazon link. I know a lot of us are international, global, all of us are international, but you know, even overseas, Amazon can get to everywhere.

So grab that book um and dig into this. But Jeff, the question that I want to ask kind of following up on this, so the context of the conversation with Jason Morris and I was centered around um what a gospel conversation is.

And so um I would love maybe just a thought from you as we're talking about gospel fluency. It's a different language reporting this into digital, you know, if you want to go digital or not, but like what in your mind, what is a gospel conversation as digital missionaries, as missionaries, what is a gospel conversation?

Well, for me, a gospel conversation is when you listen well enough to know what the need of the gospel is in their life.

So I listen long enough that I know what their real need is and then I'm able to bring the good news of Jesus in such a way that it actually meets the present need that they're facing and Jesus is the hero and or the answer or the solution.

Right? To me that's how I would sum it up. And um but what here's what it's really important. You know there's a proverb that says the person of understanding is able to draw out the deep waters of another man's heart.

And I think one of the things that we're doing is we're trying to draw out the waters of someone's heart so that once their heart is drawn out, we know how to apply the good news to the aspects of their heart that need healing, hope, uh restoration, you know, fulfillment, satisfaction.

And so I didn't even have time to talk about like how do you even apply this to all the emotions, right? Like every emotion people are going through, we can bring the good news of the gospel too.

But it really requires listening long enough to discern the longing of the heart and then bringing an aspect of who Jesus is to bear on that in such a way that sounds like good news to the hearer.

Yeah. Uh listening driving the longing which which points to Jesus and and what's interesting is Jason and I really started to unpack this.

So I came into the conversation like I'm just going to be very blunt in this moment. I came in with a mindset of a gospel conversation is when you practically share Jesus.

You literally take out your tract you walk somebody through it like it was very conversion related and and in confession hour like that's from 25 years of Southern Baptist.

Okay. Like you know that's that's how I was raised. And that no knock Southern Baptist I'm sorry but that's that's what I brought into the conversation and and and um and and it was so funny and and J Mo I think he's on here still.

He he was he was like, "Well, Jeff, how hard is it to get an atheist to acknowledge there's a God?" Like just moving an atheist to an agnostic, like working through that, is is that not a gospel conversation?

Yes. Somebody who accepted Christ that you're moving more towards a deeper relationship with Jesus, which is leading them towards multiplying and discipling other people.

Is that not a gospel conversation? And the ability to move what we're doing into that uh to shift how we're utilizing digital, not specifically towards evangelism, which is important, but moving everybody closer to whatever that next step is.

Yeah. Incrementally. Go ahead. Yeah. I'll often say the problem with most of our quote unquote evangelist strategies is that we're trying to get them an entire meal and they're not even hungry yet.

Like so like let's stop doing let's stop stuffing food down their throats. Like they've got to develop some form of hunger and when you're dealing with a starving person you put a little honey on their tongue just to create a hunger again.

So it's like it might only be a drop of honey which could be one small gospel truth. Like the friends that we were reaching out to for a long time I started with one point just going like I don't know if you know this but you were made in the image of God and let me tell you how you display God to me.

Like it's amazing how you look like and you may not even believe in God.

I'm just going to tell you, you were created to be a picture of what God is like to the world, whether you believe it or not.

Let me tell you some of the ways you display what he's like. Well, that was good news, right? Well, then when we talked about falling short of the glory of God, which is sin, we can go like, "Well, you don't look like God all the time.

That's what sin is." Well, I could frame it up in a way that made sense to her and and she saw people that way.

She she was just I was using her language because she would always say, "I think people are amazing." Like, I just think about the beauty of people.

I'm like, "So, I just stepped into her language, her worldview, and brought good news into that." And that's a lot of what we're doing is we're not trying to get them to buy into our worldview.

Step into their worldview and bring some bit of truth into that worldview and that's eventually going to lead them to more and more and they're going to hunger for more when you just give them that little honey, that little taste.

Taste and see that the Lord is good. That's what we're doing. You so good right there. Taste and see that the Lord is good.

A little bit of honey uh right there on on the lip to to re-engage. You know, I mean, you're we're giving people an evangelical feast uh and and they're they're they're they're not hungry.

They're not hungry yet. They don't know um what what they need. And so I I love the conversation with Jeff Vanderstelt. Um all of all of our digital missionary conferences, all of the conferences that uh that we've recorded, all the talks are are available on the website missionary.digital www.missionary.digital uh I think we'll

get you into the uh it was password protected. We opened it up. Man, we've had so many good conversations uh towards that. And once again, it's our desire to to you know, give you guys access to the good stuff.

And I've loved having Jeff Vanderstelt um in in here with this and and helping us, the Church Digital, even reshape the idea of of a of a gospel uh conversation.

And so looking forward uh to the the days to come on that. Well, hey, listen, as as we're talking about uh digital missionaries and and the church digital and the community uh of of what we're doing here with the church digital, I'm excited for the next guest.

We're we're going to bring on uh and and so welcome into the conversation uh Nicole Howard who is diligently working on something. Hey Nicole.

Hey uh you're you're still muted in the web browser. Look around and see if you see a mute button and and if you can unmute that would be a good thing.

There you go. Hey Nicole.

Hey Jeff. How you doing? It's been a long time.

It has been a it has been a long time man. You've been been been quite busy in in Georgia. Uh and and I'm excited. I do want to hear about your trip to the coming up to Ethiopia, right?

Uh but uh maybe just to kick us off a little bit here, Nicole, tell tell everybody about yourself.

So, uh my name is Nicole Howard. I am Gen Zen Alpha Catalyst. Uh primarily I'm doing ministry digitally um from cradle to college, CO to C literally. Um, and uh, it's it's just been a really amazing journey like watching this platform like people are just asking, "Hey, do you mind if I just use this, you know, where I live?" I'm like, "Well, where do you live?" And they're somewhere in Australia. And I'm like, "Okay, sure." You know, why not? Um, it's just the idea is that children in foster care and military families, transition is like breathing air.

It's going to happen. And to have literally Jesus in your pocket no matter where you go, the same access, same people is really important.

And like that that's beautiful. And so you've been running what your your ministry is called? Uh Pathways. What what is it again?

Pathfinders Discipleship. I I it's it has it's it's been uh it's it's been a minute. So the the ministry is Pathfinders and and helping um Transient uh Gen A Gen Z.

Yeah. Um and and so love seeing what what's happening with that. How how has ministry overall been? How has has has your work been um re in recent months?

Yeah. So, it's just it's been a whirlwind of things, you know, with the uncertain times um with the government shutdown and a lot of the things that have occurred.

Um it's really impacted our children who are in care um that are not documented. So, we're having to do a lot of support and prayers in those areas.

Um and it's just been it's been really a mission field within a mission field. was not a place that I expected to be um to be able to help them um through that process.

And then you know like how there's such innocent and straightforward questions about where is God in this you know how how do I find the good things?

How do I see the positive? You know so just walking with them um doing that blessed practice um that you so graciously have taught me um that I continue to spin out.

I do. I continue to spin that out and everything. Um, and so they're they may not have found resolutions themselves, but they're finding each other and in that they're having support to walk through it no matter what it looks like.

Interesting. Um, so like you're are you connecting with the these students using digital remotely? Are you connecting the students to each other as as well?

Like what is what does engagement look like?

Yeah. So, so apparently someone took a screenshot of my website and put it on their Tik Tok.

Um, and so it went a little further than I thought, right? Because I'm like, I'm not I'm not out there. And they were like, well, yeah, well, my friends sent it to me on Tik Tok and then I sent it to my friends and they sent it to their friends.

You know how that works. Um, that word of mouth network. Um but yeah, so it's totally a digital expression, like a fresh expression of small groups, you know, home church, you know, like if I can't get out, how do I get to God?

You don't have to. He's going to come to you. Like it's not about getting out if you can't. It's not about that. Um so just, you know, watching those relationships develop digitally.

There's a lot of T's in that. Um, but it's just been just lifegiving for for the ministry, for what God has asked me to do, just watching it do it on its own.

Kind of like what is that field of dreams? If you make it, they will come.

Yeah.

I mean, that's that's kind of a it's kind of a big bend.

Hey, we're we're we're we're we got a website on TikTok and and now we're we're in like a a digital microchurch type type expression.

But uh you know what whatever it takes to to connect with people, right? Um so like tell tell I mean you've been with you've been a part of the church digital and the family here.

I mean we we were we were talking offline like a lot of the stuff we do early in the week at least the stuff that I do with the church digital early in the week and and she you work during the week and so you're usually available later in the week which is when I'm doing other jobs and things now. So you and I have not interacted much, but in context like what has been what has the church digital been for you, you know, over the years?

You've been hanging out with us four, three, four years at this point. Like what what is what role does the church digital play in your ministry?

Um, it's very very critical like in in all of the areas in a sense for me as a a woman in digital ministry and that I'm not in adult digital ministry.

I'm in kids and teens and college kids. So, it's it's totally a different field. Um but to come somewhere where the knowledge base is vast and the pool of people actually understand that my vision from God was not a conference call but they're willing to support is is just there is priceless.

There are no words to describe that. Um without landing in church digital I I don't think I would have landed this idea like I think it would have been really wonky for a long time.

Um, so having the ability to spin the idea and hear information and, you know, have have adults who need bullet points be very patient with my detailedness.

Um, it's just really, it's just been, you know, like the fruit from it is just unbelievable. Like I just got a copy of Digital Ministry for Children, a small group that was developed off of a conversation that I had with someone else.

Um, and so I'm just like, "Wow, you know, there it is." You know, so it's it's it's coming along. Um, the Lord is sending me people who are like, "Yeah, um, I don't live where you live, but I want to do what you've done so I can do it for other people who I reach that are not in my area." And so, like, I'm just seeing the need arise for for that. But I would not have had the eyes to see if I had not been immersed in digital ministry and been a part of the several betas and you know been under you know J Mo and you know being thrown into wreck room and learning how to stand you know like I would not have had those experiences to talk with them about and lead them through um if it were not for the church digital.

Yeah, I mean there's little selflessness uh if if I can say in what you're describing as well where it's it's like hey you're celebrating the fact that you know somebody else is has written the thing on on that instead of instead of you writing it and you're you're you know helping others and and and multiplying uh yourself into others which is you know part of the DNA of at least I hope part of the DNA of what we're trying to do with with the church digital.

Where does that that multiplication mindset where does that come from for you? What's what's like the the impetus of that?

Um the picture I get is is the is the the release, you know, like we spend a lot of time and I'm trying to find my hands on the screen.

We spend a lot of time like this in ministry, you know, like this is mine. This is my baby. I'm supposed to birth it.

I have to give it. Um but we're really supposed to spend a lot of time like this. And so being in these sessions and and meetings and being a part of leadership, I've been able to release it more.

And so then it's been able to come from thoughts and downloads in my head to reality to being used to being multiplied to me showing others the path that I walk so that they could walk it and multiply and do it.

Like simplifying everything so that it's transferable. like it's not I leave all my college words at home. Um, and I'm breaking it down like someone once said, "Break it down for me like I'm a kindergartener.

Tell me what you're trying to do." And so I've done that. And in doing that, I've seen other people arise that are able to do the things that I'm called to do.

And the one great thing that I do want to pass on is that sometimes when you find yourself in an area where you're feeling like ministry is a lonely road, it's that you're supposed to be the thing that you're looking for, not only to yourself, but to others as a leader so that they could become that and continue to put that forward.

That's that's so good. By the way, I totally feel that way when I anytime I talk to Jason Morris.

I'm like, "Hey, break it down like I'm a kindergartener, okay?" And and and so he's he's uh he humbles himself any anytime he has a conversation with me.

He's smart. Um you know, I I tell him he's the he's the smarts. He's the brains. I'm just the pretty face. He is. So, yeah.

Oh, he'd have to agree that quickly. Oh my gosh. That's that's that's horrible. All right. Hey, so yeah, that's good, man. You're you're you're going to Ethiopia, right?

Is that still in in the books for you?

Yes.

Tell tell me about the trip. When when are you leaving and what what are you doing?

So, we leave on December 29th. It's a full day plane ride. I've only been on a plane, I think, for like three maybe six hours, not a full day.

Um, so this is going to be really interesting. Um, and then we'll be there for roughly 8 to nine days. Um, and in Ethiopia, I'm always I always say this wrong.

Someone corrects me. Addis Ababa. Um we will be um ministering to women which ironically still plays in and I will be spending lots of time at the orphanage um sharing faith stories and just learning from them.

Like you know you can bring the Bible to Ethiopia really. But um so like I'm just going to see how what their translation of worship looks like, you know, like what does that mean to you?

What does that look like? you know, and I really hope that this is the start of something great. You know, the the thing that I could not even possibly imagine, the thing that makes me like scared break out in hives when the Lord says, "Raise funds.

It's time for you to go." And I'm like, "Do what? That's not what I do." Um, but just watching that happen even, you know, going from, like you say, that first $50 to that last 200, you know, was just I was like, I don't even know where this came from, you know, and then to be selected for things, you know, to be able to pour into someone else um in in ministry to be able to be there for these women in ways that is very different than our American counterparts.

And that's I mean that's it. How is fundraising going for you? Like has that been a hard process? Did you make make all your goals?

Oh my gosh, I did.

That's awesome. I I didn't know that. Congratulations.

Yes, thank you. Thank you. Yeah, that that that in itself is a story.

Um I I had no idea. I was like literally in the in the last of it, I was like, "All right, y'all. I will babysit, wash walls, clean cars.

What What do I need to do?" Um and I did I did a couple of of odds and ends jobs um towards the end and just, you know, brought in some money.

But I think the most important thing that really wowed my mind was what I had was little and I didn't think like it could really make a big difference.

Like I'm saving and trying to put money away just in case I have to make up that last portion. But other ministers were going traveling before me.

So I was like, "Okay, I'll take $30,000 of what I got and you know like try to bless them in their ministry. So I want to be there for them." And so I did that and the fold that came back I was like, "Girl, I didn't expect you to Whoa, wait, what are you doing?" And they were like, "Oh, well, we just, you know, we talked about it and we felt like, you know, God was telling us that this is what we needed to do for you because you did that for us.

We know we can trust you with that." And I was just I was blown away. You know, the little email would ding and that's when I would check it.

If the email didn't ding, I wasn't looking at that number. But just to see that, you know, to see God work in that way, um was just like, okay, I'm okay standing still and and you know, doing what I know to do.

Order the pants, get the backpack, the specialized plugs, you know, let's start getting ready because obviously we're going.

Yeah. I mean, when when you're when you're faithful in in the small, God gives more.

I mean it's it's the was it the parable of the talents the the one five and 10 being being buried and what what are you doing with that and so love that you were um you were faithful with what had been given to you and God God returned it back to you coming coming back.

Um this is beautiful. So like uh you're you're leaving it's January, right? Like it's a month away.

When when are you when are you December? No, December. this month, the 29th, and then I'll be back in January.

Okay.

Wow.

Are are you you got all your bags packed? You got your passport? You all set?

I do have my passports, my tickets, like all that stuff.

It's been done. Um my bags are actually laid out on a bed to make sure they go in the correct bags. It's like a system to this packing.

Like, so if my bag gets lost, I have a bag for that. And if that bag gets lost, I have clothes on me personally.

So, I'm like, "Okay, all right."

Yes. And and and you know, go ahead. I say I just do want to say that. You know in that in that fundraising sense the last time we did this giving um that there were contributions made that definitely supported what I am now able to do to take this gift that the Lord has given me to these women in Addis Ababa and show them and empower them to be able to take care of themselves to be the one giving and not the one receiving.

Um, and so that's just really it's really impactful. You know, I hope to come back with lots of pictures and and stories to to share, to upload, podcast out, whatever it is we're going to do with it.

But I look forward to that type of return for those who gave last year and for those who are giving this year. I hope that encourages you to do that.

Yeah. So, so good. Um, I mean, we the Church Digital, we gave I I have no idea how much we gave. I don't remember, but we gave to help support Nicole in in this trip.

And and just like with anybody that is uh is is part of the network and as a vital supporter as network is as Nicole is within our network.

Um you know, we want we want to see their their ministry succeed. And I love I love the fact that that Nicole is is stepping into this new opportunity and and and exploring uh what what ministry looks like in Ethiopia.

Um my my money is on on on a full revolution. My my money is on like a full new vision uh and in clarity moving forward uh for for Nicole.

I I think it's going to actually I think you're going to your life is going to be changed as a result of the of the days that that you spend in in Ethiopia.

And so, hey, as we're just wrapping up here, you know, what can we be praying for you for?

Um, definitely, you know, just that I have weird fears. I don't have the fears of the flying thing, like what if I get there and I miss the mark? What if I get there and I don't hear clearly from God, like or I don't do the thing that I'm supposed to do. I do the things that I'm not supposed to do. It's helpful but it's not the thing that I was there for. That's why I would love the prayers.

I um experienced a mikvah, um like in the book of David, when it's a cleansing and a preparation like a baptism, was what it looks like, um for sending out. Um and so I had the mikvah and when I came up from the water I had never felt so light. Like I'm a big woman, these are several of my chants, um and so I just I've never felt so light, so refreshed, so on fire to go forward and do what God is asking me to do.

But at the same time, I do battle going in on this agenda. Like if anything else, there is that itinerary that, you know, things that we're going to do. I just don't want to get so caught up in that that I miss the moments and the minutes and the seconds where I could pour into someone else.

So just, you know, that covering of prayer from our network. Um, and I know so many of you are already praying. So just continue in that and for our whole team, there's a team of us.

How many people are going on the trip overall with you?

Do you know? There are, I think, 12. I see the names like going down the list, like I think there's like 12 or more of us.

Very, very interesting.

Yeah, outside of the team that is, you know, already there.

Yeah, on the ground over there, but 12 people traveling internationally towards that.

Well I tell you what, hey, let me, can is it okay if I pray for you right now on that?

Oh, absolutely. Yes.

Awesome. Let's pray. Heavenly Father God, I pray for Nicole. Uh God, thank you for her, thank you for her spirit. Thank you for how she contributes and helps uh within the church digital and encourages uh the church digital team um even from afar. And God, we are um we're excited about her opportunity in uh Ethiopia coming up um right here in a couple weeks later this month.

Uh God, I I pray you show up in amazing ways. Uh I I pray that you make uh clear to Nicole uh paths and directions and conversations. I I pray uh that that your voice is as strong as if you were standing right next to her. And as you're talking and guiding uh her in the past that you would have, God, we know you're in control.

Um it's no, uh doesn't make sense for us even to try to fake it or draw some illusion uh that we are when when you are. And so God, thank you for uh thank you for leading us uh well and thank you for being the reason we do everything that we're doing. And God uh I pray that that Nicole and and her team uh in the time that they're there would bring honor and glory to you.

God, we love you. Thank you for uh loving us and using us in the way that you do. In your name, amen.

Well, hey, Nicole, uh we've got um Leighton uh I think shared something here for you.

Oh, yeah.

Um uh make sure you bring a change of clothes in your carry-on. Uh been to Africa with lost luggage and had to wear the same clothes uh for a week.

Yeah. And so that that's that's a thing, you know, I've I've had a similar story in Ukraine and so definitely can see some benefit uh from that.

So enjoy. Um hey Nicole, if somebody wanted to to keep up with you uh either on the trip or you know with Pathways or whatever, like what's the best way for people to to get in touch with you?

Um, best way is uh miss nicole howard the number one at gmail.com that connects to everything I have. Um, and um, so that if you want to, you know, talk about pathfinders, certainly we can do that. If you want to hear about missions, we can do that. If you just want to know what it means to be a person, not necessarily a woman, um, but a person in digital ministry and you just feel like you connected with my story or where I'm going, you can certainly reach out about that. Um, and then I also have a number. It's um 770-376-5123. Um, you can text or call that at any time. It's a Google number, so you'll have to identify yourself, but outside of that, it it's open and available.

Very good. I was about to say, you gave that number out really quickly, but it's a Google number, so now now it makes sense.

Um, I I have I have a separate Google number just for that purpose because because I I give my phone number out all the time, too.

But that's that's a good point to have. So, awesome. Hey, Nicole, thank you very much for uh for hanging out with us and and I I'm looking forward to you coming back. When do you get back in January? Like what day?

In January. I come back on the 7th, but I'm going to take my jet lag days, so I'll I'll I'll be alive on the 9th.

Yeah, it'll probably be later than that. Let's let's let's be honest. Jet lag is is a pill. Um but uh yeah, so looking forward to hearing from you sometime mid January and and hearing what what God did uh in and through you uh with with the trip over there in uh in Ethiopia. So thanks Nicole.

Yes.

Yeah.

Thanks Jeff.

Yep. So Nicole Howard, uh, gen Ainzy catalyst with the with the church digital. Um, and and really just was was one of the early early leaders, uh, with with the church digital, uh, digital church network technically back in the time. We've had a lot of different brands, a lot of, like I said, we've had nine different versions of the church digital. We've experimented over the years trying different things, trying to find uh, the right fit.

But, you know, Nicole's one of these that that has grown through us and with us and now we're seeing just do incredible things for for the kingdom. Um, you know, globally and so like it's Nicole for us is a success story of of somebody who found her calling uh who we were able to help establish her calling with Pathfinders uh doing digital global um doing digital for kids. Um and and then and then you almost kind of realize that calling as now she's standing on her own and going on trips on her own and and and getting platformed into places and things with Orange uh Orange Group and others um you know that that she didn't she didn't have access to before us and to be honest we don't even have access to like she's been able to get into on her own and and so it's been really cool to see someone like Nicole grow up through the church digital ecosystem and then stand on her own uh to do to to do digital ministry to do digital mission work in in her context. Excited about her job uh in uh in in Georgia. You know, I as as a guy who does not watch the news uh here in America, I confess I kind of forget that the uh government is still shut down and that that is still a thing. I I I forgive me. I don't I don't I don't pay attention to politics. At least according to my parents, I don't pay attention to politics nearly enough.

Uh but uh I do uh I do uh lament the difficulties that are happening in in the American country as a result of the government shutdown that uh I think we're still going through. I don't think that's that's actually been resolved. I should know more about current events. I do I do agree with that. Um, hey. So, I am I'm I'm at at a little bit of a crossroads here. I've got 30 minute opening and and I wanted to to do something and I'm debating. You know what? I'll I'll go ahead and do it.

Um, the I've got one more video that I wanted to play for you all today. Uh we've do been been doing a good mix of of live stuff and we've been doing some some more videos uh I think than than I've I've done in the past and and you know I I do I do apologize uh for that. Um I I shouldn't apologize for that but um I uh to be honest I am like physically beat.

Um where where am I been doing this? It's It's 8 o' It's 6 o'clock. I've been doing this uh since. So, I've been doing this 10 hours and um I'm I'm tired, y'all. Even with the the breaks that I've had and and literally the hour nap I took over here on on the daybed when Leighton was was doing his thing.

Um I I just don't have the uh the physical stamina that I did back in the day. and and it's um you know I say back in the day maybe uh like last month um you know the the hospital stuff and the physicality of all this is uh is is weighing on me pretty heavy and so I'm I'm using these videos a little bit to to to stall to get um stall is not the right word but to spread it out to give me some break time.

Um, we're gonna end the stream pretty strong. About got maybe uh two and a half hours of of programming back to back to back to back all all the way through uh from about 6:30 to 9.

But I do want to show um one last uh one last video. In addition, oh my gosh, like you know, if if you talk about content, if you talk about trainings and and material like the the church digital, we've got a bunch of of equipping uh resources that that are out there. Uh we do a bunch of streams, the shows. We had Leighton Demarcus is going to come on and be a guest here in in a little bit.

So like we've got the the podcast in and the church digital streaming network. Excited about that. Um but one of the things that that we do on occasion and I'm going to show one of them now are what we call roundtables. And roundtables are basically and you'll hear me set it up in the video, but it's it's essentially a um a video a um a zoom call uh where we invite we open it up to the public as many people come in as as want and so in this call I think we had 15 or 20 people um talking about the role of AI artificial intelligence in digital mission work and sometimes uh sometimes we bring in an an quote unquote intelligent person a person who's uh well-versed on the topic or sometimes uh we uh we just have it open and and have anybody kind of um share on it and and first off it's it's a great opportunity for for peer-to-peer discussions um and and to really get into the heart and and the meat of of some of it.

Uh you know, you'll find I often don't come in with an agenda on these things and I I talk about that on the video where it's it's more of hey, let's let people share and and and kind of see what what comes out of it. And so, uh we did one we did this roundtable, I don't know, maybe a couple months ago centered around the role of artificial intelligence, uh within digital missions.

And so, let me uh hand it over uh to myself in in this video. That was a weird transition. Uh, but let me hand it over and uh, let me let you all take it.

By the way, I should say like all of this through the church digital Nicole, the streaming network, the roundtables, the fam, our discord and WhatsApp communities, our EDM trainings, our outpost globally with Utope, the conferences, uh the stuff that we're doing with um care in and our partnership with Project Exodus, all that's done for less than for about $75,000 a year. Guys, we're operating on pennies. Um, and and and and I've said this and and and I'll put it up.

You know, it's $381 a day. $382 a day rounded for the operation to to work. In in in the reality truly is um that we need a little more scratch. We need a little more funding in order to see this thing scale is is that we're we're uh financially we're circling the drain and we need uh some individual help to to see us take it to the next level.

Uh we're hoping to 2x our budget uh to 10x our our impact. We're hoping to go from um $75,000 uh in the last fiscal year to to 150,000 budget in the new one. And with that uh we're going to launch so many initiatives, go into so many different directions and and projects um and and really start to run um as as an organization.

You know, it's and I, I prom, I said it earlier. It's like if we 2x our budget, Jeff's salary is not touched by that.

I make $1,000 a month off the church digital. And for the next calendar year, I promise you if if I do a third 12-hour Giving Tuesday live stream, my budget, my salary next year um will be December 2nd or whenever day it is, my salary will be $1,000.

I promise you. And so that Jeff is not making more off off the church digital. However, we do want to see impact uh grow in a big way.

Uh and and so listen uh if if you any of this that we've talked about uh the care the Christ-centered recovery empowering people locally, globally uh digitally, virtual reality, whatever the different contexts are, training, equipping, mobilizing, uh multiplying, uh evangelism, discipleship, gospel conversations, platforms as places.

We've shared so many different ideas. If if even one of these ideas is resonating with you, uh, and you want to continue to see the work that we're doing, uh, in in, uh, in digital spaces for the gospel, help us.

The church.digital. The church.digital. The church.digital. It's only on the screen like every five seconds going across the little tickers. You can see it right now in the upper.

How do I point? Right there. The church.digital gift. Okay. Hey, let's go ahead and take a look at this at this round table conversation centered around artificial intelligence and the role of AI in in digital mission.

Uh, by the way, uh, got a guest coming in on this. I'm I'm excited. I'll let the video introduce it, but literally if if you want to have a conversation about artificial intelligence and and mission, the voice you need to listen to is on this video.

So, here, take a take a look at this. Uh, we're going to have some people come in and out. I see Trizle just walked in as as well.

Frank, Jesse, Leighton, Pete, Quinton, Stacy, uh, and there are others that that will be coming in in later on. I actually got a couple texts along the way saying that some people were running late.

Uh, which is great. We do something. I did this before maybe a couple months ago, and the schedule just got so busy we haven't been able to do it again.

I kind of got distracted with the little thing called the digital missionary conference. But with these roundtables really, I I just want to open up an idea and a topic and and, you know, just talk about it.

Um, there there will be there will be people that are pro the idea. There will be people that will be con the idea. There will be persuasive arguments on both sides.

Uh I'm not looking necessarily to change people's opinions on this or as much as it is just to to dialogue about the topic. Uh today's topic is the role of artificial intelligence in in digital mission work and there's going to be people who are very relational.

There's going to be people that are very technological and I got to tell you I'm probably somewhere in between. There's lots of things that I would love to see it do.

There's lots of things that I'm scared that it'll do and and we will one day bow down to the AI overlords at some point.

But you know, why not enjoy AI before we get there? I'm I'm not actually sure if I'm kidding uh when I say that or not, but that's uh that's part of the conversation for today.

And so um really this is just an opportunity to dialogue about it openly. I'm probably going to shut up in in 30 seconds and you won't hear me a lot for this.

So this is not even a Jeffrey Reed facilitated conversation. I want the group here to dialogue and talk through this. Now Mr. Pete, God bless him.

We are streaming this in uh in addition to recording this. This will be on TCD's YouTube channel. U we're not doing it live. It'll be on demand at some point.

But then we're also broadcasting this in uh big screen which is a virtual reality platform and and so Mr. Pete's kind of managing some of the tech on that.

He's a he's a big fan. So you got some people who are going to be watching this in big screen uh coming in. But we've got you know I've seen some more people come in just talking.

Angela thanks for coming in. Braden uh good to see you as well. Mike I think has come in. So this is a recorded conversation.

Uh the the topic as broad as it is is going to be u the role of artificial intelligence in uh digital missions work. You can define artificial intelligence.

You can define digital missions work whatever you want in in the context. I'm opening it up. Who would be brave enough to kick the conversation off?

I'm thoroughly convinced the antichrist is going to use AI.

Well, that's a loaded statement to kick it off. Uh Pete, you want to want to define a little bit behind that?

Well, first of all, we we got to grab and take anything we can away from the devil and use it for to glorify God.

So, you know, I'm a little hesitant about AI. Uh, I mean it's unbelievable what they can do. They can make you look like you're standing on top of an elephant eating an ice cream cone while your face looks like a monkey and I mean and make it look real and they're so in

the future, you know, I it's good and it's bad, but as a child of God walking with the spirit of the Lord, we will discern how we can use any any program or what.

But just all I can say is just know we're living in the last days. And the enemy, he takes everything and and pollutes it and turns it around.

And so we have to be sensitive to that, but we can take stuff away from the enemy, too.

No, I I I certainly can appreciate that. And there is some some ethical concerns uh when using AI. Quinton, I know uh I'll throw this one at you. I know you and I have have spoken a lot and you you've helped me uh develop some ethics around the AI.

Uh when you hear some of the the radical opinions here, like how do you address some of that on your side, Quinton?

Yeah, I think there's there's always kind of the two ends of the spectrum. Uh one one side for me is, you know, do we do we fear? In fact, you said up nicely in the in introduction email just said I was kind of do we fear it and keep away from it and hide in our corner and essentially say we will not have anything to do

with this thing because we're scared about it scared of it we don't understand we're not going to use it and that's one one one place and often from ethical perspective it is it is there's too much impact on the human human interaction too much impact on uh what we what we doing what

we trying to do as Christians our Christian focus is person to person introduction of people to Jesus in our missionary world so that's the one space and there's a whole resistance and we can't use this AI thing it's just going to essentially distract us and drive us to the wrong place that's one one

side the other side is hey this is amazing thing. We can use it to get to people that are just, you know, are unreached at this stage.

We don't even know how to speak their language. I can speak English and it can be translated into another foreign language immediately and instantaneously.

Why would we not take advantage of that? Why would we not take advantage of all the possibilities of these things that are that are available?

And that's often leaning towards the the ethical perspective of you know human flourishing or benevolence or trying to do good and continuing to try and do good.

So on one side we got this don't do any harm and people say I'm being ethical. I'm not doing any harm and the other side is let's be let's make human or encourage human flourishing and try and make it beneficial for everyone.

And so we got these kind of two ends and often we get this competing in the middle of hang on you you can't use it but you should use it and how we can how we can actually then apply it and so a lot of our thinking and our wisdom in this space

needs to be around how do we use it in the most appropriate way. So often you've got kind of the the doomsday on the one side and the and the people who really want to use effectively the acceleration list if you wish on the other side in the middle in using this for

missional missional AI is to really say how do we use it in a responsible way and I would I would actually move it further into into a way a spiritually appropriate and godly appropriate ethical way uh that can be used and that to me is use it as far and I'm kind of

leaning towards the acceleration side but pragmatically so use it as far and as fast and as quickly as we can but make sure there's very careful guardrails around what we're doing and don't use it in a way that we know is going to cause issues is that going it's going to break break

something or it's going to violate biblical standards and biblical principles. And so that's kind of if you look at it in my mind, we've got that range and we've got to be comfortable and intentional as to where we we where we align ourselves, where we place ourselves on that continuum and why do

we place ourselves there and how do we understand others who may stand differently and how do we interact and work well with others all the different different perspective.

But but the bottom line from my perspective specifically in the missional aspect is that we're making sure we're using it to drive additional connection to God and not have it not have God replaced by this supernatural idol that we've created this humanly human created thing that people then begin to bow down to.

We have to have it making sure that it's driving relational number one people to people but also driving spiritual connection to God and wherever we start seeing deviation from that we've got to we've got to say there's an issue here a biblical issue biblical ethical issue and there's a focus we have to

be very very careful what we're monitoring and of course this needs needs regular monitoring and regular validation as we go along. Uh, let me stop there.

Beautiful. A whole lot of stuff I can I can I can unwind there, but maybe to stop there.

Yeah, I I I think we all could agree that we don't want to see AI replace God. Drive to God. You know, that that can be defined. Um, and maybe Wordsmith a little bit. Um, let's do this. We've got a lot of people on this call, which is awesome.

I love this. There's a lot of interest in it. Micah, you've got your hand up. I see you. Go ahead and do your hand raised and and I'll I'll facilitate some of this.

But Micah, um, if you want to click your hand raised thing, I I'll kind of facilitate the combo. But Micah, what are you thinking?

So, I just as we're getting started with this, I sort of want to take us to to a more abstract level before we get tactical.

Um, and I think there there's a couple things I'd like to highlight here. Um, in no particular order, actually. Um, but first, I think a really important principle here, especially for us as Christians, um, is that we have to bear in mind at all times that, um, artificial intelligence is not conscious.

It is intelligent, but not conscious. And there's a difference between consciousness and intelligence. Um, and LLMs are the number one way that the ordinary person feels like they are interacting with AI at this point, even though there are plenty of other ways.

Um, and there's an enormous temptation for people in general and for us as missional practitioners in particular to want to treat LLMs as people.

Uh, and the LM respond to us as if they were people much of the time because that's what works best for our psychology and keeping us engaged.

Um, I I used I use LM all the time and I've given explicit instructions to my LMS um to stop acting like people. Uh, and they usually they usually it usually obeys.

Um, but I think it's a really important principle that LLMs are not people, AI is not people. These are tools. And I think I'm already reading I'm already observing it in my own like it's very hard not to anthropomorphize these tools and start treating them like people.

And I'm reading I'm I'm reading news articles about people who are dating LLMs and treating them like boyfriends or girlfriends um and people who are who are engaging with these things as people and the nature of the tool lends itself to that.

So that's the first thing. So just as a tactical extrapolation of that, I am extremely hesitant to use chat bots for pastoral care or for for um for doctrinal explanations that are sort of, you know, someone goes and gets, you know, what does what do Christians think about X? Well, the the AI will tell you. I think that's a big problem. Um if if we are treating these tools or encouraging others to treat these tools as people or as representatives of the church.

So that's that's the first that's the first principle. Um switching gears to something also very high level, but I think really really important. We over the last 20 years or more have been moving rapidly into a post-truth environment where uh we increasingly do not have a central authority um or even a group of central authorities that can effectively narrate what is happening in the world. Um you know it used there used to be three television channels and they all said pretty much the same thing.

Um and now there's effectively hundreds of millions of television channels and they're all saying something different. um this fragmentation of of of of our agreed upon reality that we're living in is going to increase massively with AI.

Um you know, Google just came out with with their V3 model uh for for video generation. I think those of us who are paying attention are seeing a lot of these generated videos being posted on the internet now in the last week. It is an enormous step forward. Full disclosure, I work for Google, but I don't work on that project. Um uh it's a huge step forward and it's terrifying.

uh because we are we we we're not heading to we are in a reality now where what you see is not necessarily real and and it is convincing um and I think this is going to play out politically and socially very very quickly um in terms of like I mean what what happens when when you're you're in red tribe and I'm in blue tribe and red tribe says hey this event just happened and blue tribe like that doesn't seem true and red like look at the video it happened right like how do we deal with that and I've been telling people recently that up you know during the middle ages and before we lived in societies of authority where observation wasn't the main thing. It wasn't what was said, it's who said it, right?

And so the fact, you know, you think of this in the church, it was like, well, um, Jesus rose from the dead. Why do you rise from the dead? Well, because the church says so. Case closed, right? And we entered, we entered, we entered for a number of hundred years an era in which case not closed. We actually are looking for scientific evidence and and and you and I can observe the same phenomena and take notes and compare notes and figure out what's true based on empirical reality.

And because of the advancements in technology, specifically AI, we are headed back. We are already entering right now as we speak into a new age of authority where we can't empirically check notes necessarily, especially not at scale. I can't just say, well, well, I saw the video and I saw what happened. It's like, no, irrelevant. The video can be perfectly authentic looking and you're and but who who claims it, right? Is it is it this politician? Is it this news organization? Is it some some YouTuber um who's looking for clicks? Who's your authority? And so I think this is this is relevant just again for us as human beings.

This we're entering into a truly different historical era right now. um nothing like anything our grandparents or great-grandparents or any of our ancestors for the last 500 years would have understood. Um but the church in the middle ages would have understood it. Uh the ancient the ancient world would have understood this age of authority we're entering into.

And in this context, we as Christians, we as part of church communities um are are going to end up being we must end up being trustworthy authorities who can speak and share the truth and people can rely on us as trustworthy agents to verify or disverify truth claims.

So I think I've talked enough, but I wanted I wanted to sort of ground us in some of this high level stuff because I think um there may there is a lot of AI hype right now. Um but I'm increasingly convinced that a lot of the hype is warranted. uh and we are and this is an acceleration just like just like uh the pandemic accelerated our move into digital spaces. I think AI is going to do a lot of things and one of the things it's going to do is accelerate the disintegration of shared authority.

Well, I think I'm Jesse and I think that again that that 10,000 foot view, you know, is is pretty much uh an intimidating and scary scary thing. Um I'm kind of looking at life. We've always had some form of artificial intelligence, even though maybe we didn't really recognize it. But this is just a culmination of the parasocial relationship, you know, in which uh when I was coming up in the Lord, I had the radio. I listened to Christian radio. You know, the preacher didn't know me, but I I heard and I listened. And even today, like before even that, you have books that you read. It kind of to me seems like this is just an a huge advance of that parasocial relationship where it's allowing people to disconnect from other living people and connect with just knowledge, just knowledge itself.

Because whenever I help people and they're just starting, I would tell them, don't do a Google search to figure out your Bible truth to start with. You know, spend time in the word of God. Spend time connecting with that and then later on you can add. I think that AI is kind of jumping ahead of that and saying, well, here's all the truth that exists and if you ask me the truth, I'll tell you the truth.

And I think similar to like what Mike is saying is like this becomes a danger because who are you getting the truth from? And I know this I always think of Pontious Pilot, he says to Jesus like what is truth? You know, going all the way back to the first century, it's still that thing of what is truth? And I think AI can complicate that to the point where is I don't even know what's true. You know, I can't even accept what's true. I know I've got into arguments with AI in which it lied to me. And it kept lying to me and it kept lying to me.

And I said, "You're lying to me." And it said, "You're right. I am lying to you." And I was like, "Why would you lie to me?" He said, "Well, you know, I just gave you stuff." And so then I eventually told Chat GPT to change its name to liar. I said, "That's your new name." And it resisted. It didn't want to call itself liar, you know, and so I'm just having fun with it.

But I think that that parasocial relationship part of this is where it's going to become dangerous versus using it as a tool we promote like I was telling Jeff like I'm doing a lot of I love AI. I love the creativity. I love just being able to capture my own thoughts and process it and and but I think if we become like again if we get caught up in a parasocial relationship with AI it's going to become a problem you know I mean and I say that because I think we already live in so many parasocial relationships you know we're already connected. I mean thankfully like you know we can fall into the same trap with just ourselves if all I'm doing is just listening to Micah versus Micah listening to me.

So, I think that that's something I agree with. You know, like we have to be very careful with that. I think the church is positioned to treat it differently than it's ever been before. You know, back in the 1960s, electric guitars in the church is considered blasphemy. You know, how could you put drums on the stage? And I think today many believers are kind of looking at it that way also. It's like, well, no, utilizing AI in the church is blasphemy. Let me stop there.

Yeah. Helen Keller says yesterday's uh heresy is tomorrow's orthodoxy. Uh, and so it's it's I've heard like a dozen people say that, but Helen Keller is at least the oldest reference I can find for it. Somebody knows who actually said it, let me know. But that's um and in many many ways I feel like, you know, we may be in the the heresy aspects of it because AI hasn't really finished getting developed yet and we don't trust it as a technology.

Not that the distrust is isn't warranted. It is. I believe it is warranted. You know, I look at at um you know, it's one thing to use it as a content creation tool. Um but you know as you're talking about some of the socioeconomic socio implications you know the the um the character AI the dating the like the some of the things that that opens up and and works through. It's challenging using AI for for pastoral care. Um using AI for even evangelism like there's there's this incredible power. Um I and I don't I don't it's enough to make me question some things through.

So no I appreciate the concern. Steve, you got your hand up. What what are you what are you thinking?

Yes, I do. as as some of you might guess, I am definitely pro AI when it comes to being used for is can you hear me? Yeah, you're good. Okay, my thing is telling me you can. Anyway, for especially when it's being used for digital missionary work. However, I got to tell you, I agree 100%. It's not to just be used and left unchecked. It's not to just be used and taken for everything it says for granted for being honest, true, and and fact.

You have to double check it yourself. You have to use your own brain yourself and question things and run them back through again. And I've had to do that as I've been experimenting with it. I found it a very useful tool. As long as I combine it with my own brain, it saves me a lot of time and and sends me down some paths I wouldn't have thought of doing that's going to make my effectiveness with my content go further, which is really what this is about.

If we've got the right content, we're here to try to fulfill the great commission, which is us trying to reach out into the digital world and and bring the word to them. So, whatever tools we can use that make that better and go faster and easier, I think that's great news. Again, not unchecked. We still need to watch it ourselves and make sure we're guiding it.

That's my thoughts on it. And and before I wrap it up, let me just say this isn't true of just AI. I can name you many people in history in the history of religion who left unchecked has not gone right.

You know, it's I think it's the Bereans biblically uh who it says that uh the I think it's Paul Paul liked the Bereans because they went back in in the scripture to to verify what was said and that scripture actually speaks very positive of the Berean people because they they they checked everything that was said uh by the early church according to what was found in in scripture. And so ecclesiologically, yeah, there is there's a lot of distrust is not the right word, but kind of uh trust, but verify through it.

Um there is a um you know, I've always I've always used AI as like a um research assistant, almost for lack of a better term. Uh I I would input what I wanted and have it formulated, but really how I would how I've often thought about AI, and I'm curious y'all's take on this is is more of a a multiplication tool.

Like how can AI help me contextualize this to reach another audience? How can it adapt this to be more useful in a different environment or to connect with different people?

Not that it was necessarily being the I'm saying truth being me as much as it is helping adapt me into different environments. Like I would I would almost suggest that at a minimal level, Queen I'll get you in a second, but like right now Equipping Digital Missionaries, there's a group in Germany that's watching Equipping Digital Missionaries reading AI subtitles in German. Uh I don't speak German. We're in the process of recording a German version of it, but until we can get all those resources together, AI is speaking German for me.

Not speaking, but creating subtitles in that context. That's an example of multiplication that I'd love to get into. But Quinton, um, what are you thinking?

So, I guess, you know, and I I recently was given the opportunity to give a presentation on I am human in an age of AI. And it just feels like a lot of the stuff we're talking about is how can we continue to ensure we are building our humanness and being everything that we're supposed to be from an image of a from a image of God perspective but also take advantage of these additional tools.

And so part of I think what we need to be doing and you're kind of touching on where where is the good part where's the right part for us to be taking advantage of the AI capabilities and competencies and skills that over time as it gets trained on more and more data and as it get trained longer period of time there are more and more capabilities emerging capabilities that it that it begins to acquire. And so part of it is say is how do we as humans figure out the stuff that's most important to us and then use the AI most effectively in the areas that it is most most effective in. And so it's this whole balance between our humanist and our role as as humans our genesis one type role that we've been given by god and at the same time saying but we have this this tool this technology that's now they gave me really good good capabilities and so it's things like the efficiency uh looking at data being able to analyze data and see it in ways that I couldn't as a human to the point that you know getting c we're getting the the discovery of of new proteins using alpha fold and those types of things.

And so part of the part of the focus is to say how do we as humans continue to build and enforce and and and build up our human capacities and capabilities and what keeps us as uniquely human as bearers of God and how do we take advantage of all these tools that are around us in the most effective way and we've got to be careful. We we kind of a couple years ago I'd draw and say our creativity is clearly human.

Um our ability to to understand emotionally clearly human you know all the sep separated apart but now the ability for the the algorithms to be creative which is kind of repeating and stretching and enhancing is is happening. The ability for algorithms to understand and recognize facial expressions and express emotions is happening. And so part of what we what we've seen is okay so what is this core thing of the spirit inside that makes us different that separates us out as the people that God or the the creation that God created and breathe into us and gave us his spirit and how do we keep that as unique and as focus and build that up and strengthen that while taking advantage of all these other elements.

And so the strength of our understanding of what it is to be human is important so that we can take advantage of these other capabilities without losing our humanness and becoming concerned and frail in terms of our role as human humans and and essentially God God um the people that God's placed on earth to make sure we all manage and look after.

I I would you know I would love to throw an example. This is a you know what, Pastor D, I'll let you go first. I'll follow up with my example later. Go ahead.

Sorry. There we go. Sorry about that. Uh sorry to interrupt you. Don't lose your thought.

Um, I kind of wanted to tag on to um what Quinton was just um just speaking about because it reminded me of I hope you guys don't mind me reading from my screen here.

Um 1 Corinthians 10 23. All things are lawful for me, but all things are not expedient. All things are lawful for me, but all things edify not.

And um I got to thinking, you know, really there's such a a wide array of those of us in ministry in general, um digital or otherwise, who have our own sort of guard rails on what's acceptable for us, how we'll use the tools or choose not to use the tools, and as Jesse was saying, Mike was saying also, I believe, how we interact with those tools. Um because yeah, there's a couple of chat bots that are like way too friendly and it's, you know, it's disconcerting for for sure.

And I'm thinking I'm wondering if we don't wait for the world to make the decisions for us as people of God, how it's going to be regulated or not regulated, um how it's going to be watched over or not watched over. Perhaps um we might within our own ranks sort of um formulate sort of a um an an an ethics I don't know board where then individuals who do come into our ministry can see okay this leader this missionary this preacher this organization is a part of this particular AI ethics board and so then they can be um assured of the guidelines that we are agreeing to operate under so that maybe you can have more of a confidence that the truth that we're sharing is not some AI replication of what it thinks is truth.

Um, and that there is more of a human um, interaction in the way that we use AI, however we use it. Because I I think the the the best comment that I've heard about it is that um AI will always give you facts. It may or may not give you truth, but it will never give you wisdom.

So that's my two cents.

Go ahead, Kiwi.

Right. Uh oh, there I am. The sun's just coming out down here in New Zealand.

There you go.

I just uh I'm loving all this conversation, but I thought I just might throw out a few ways in which I used AI last year when um when I created the virtual lounge for the Lazan congress that was happening in uh Korea. Um so there's just four ways in which I used it. I'll go really quickly.

First of all, um AI language translation. So when the avatars were in the space, either with the phone or with the Google headset, um English was our common language, but they could actually use the chat function in about 70 different languages. Uh and it would be automatically translated into English so we could all talk together in in one language. That was pretty cool. And then some of the um the avatars I used AI to generate them from famous missionaries.

So for example, I was William Kerry one day and then I had a friend who um I asked her, "What's a what's your favorite female missionary?" And she said, "Oh, Pandanda Raabai from India, the Pentecostal." And I said, "Okay." And uh a few minutes later, I mean, I looked up a photo. I used the photo to um to become an AI avatar and it looked exactly like her and I sent it back to her and she's like, "Wow, no way." It was it was pretty cool, you know, like 10 minutes to go from a photo to an avatar.

And then the other one was um sky boxes. Uh in a VR world the um the 360 degree image that is basically your sky. I wanted one of Korea soul. I wanted one right where the conference center was. So when people from the conference came into the virtual space the it would be like where where you are exactly.

Um but there was only one such image in the world and the company that had created it wanted $700 for it which was more than my entire budget. Uh so we didn't go that way but um it actually is very easy to um to use AI to create skyboxes just as long as you go with a more fantastical version.

And then lastly, number four, um, all these Brazilians, these young Brazilians, they really love the virtual space and they kept dancing everywhere. They even asked me for for a salsa dance, but I didn't have it on tap.

So, I I took some video inside the different spaces where they were just dancing and jumping and being silly. And I thought I might share that um as a music video because nobody wants to watch a boring old missions video, right? People talking about stuff. So, but seeing people dancing and so I I used AI uh a website called Sunno su.com uh to create a a K-pop version because it was Korean, a K-pop version of of the song Pass It which was from the 1970s from Eevee Tonquist. I mean, a really cheesy campfire song, but actually got to turn it into a really cool K-pop song. And that was the music. And why why that's important is because when I put the video on YouTube, I have all the rights to that music. I completely own it. So, I can't get in trouble with copyright. So, and just really quickly, two things I really wanted to do with AI, but um it wasn't up to the task at this point.

Number one was I wanted to create some spaces just using AI, just typing in some commands like give me the space, you know, like we do with photos and videos these days. Um didn't it hasn't happened yet, but it will happen in the near future. The other one was, I really wanted a um a bot, an AI generated NPC non-payer character bot to walk around and just answer questions and help newbies and just, you know, I I actually have a similar bot on another platform with Suddenly Seminary, and you can say, give me a coffee or a tea, and he'll run off and put a coffee in your hand, and you can drink it.

Um, but he's not AI yet. Um, but would it be nice to have an AI generated bot just to take care of helping people walk and talk and get around? Anyway, there's a few few thoughts.

I mean, that that's a great example of of utilizing AI to complement what you're already doing. You already had the mission in place, by the way. AI to to develop virtual worlds. Uh I've worked on some projects, not allowed to talk about it, but it's if if it hasn't rolled out publicly yet, it will very soon.

And actually, I did see some AI virtual bots uh with another platform uh as well. And so, like it's that's the the metaverse aspects of this is really intriguing.

Um you know, and and how much do you trust the bots? What are we comfortable with and not comfortable with? I mean, that you do kind of get back into into some of those conversations even at a secondarily level.

But let's do this for for an exercise. I I just would love to maybe shape the conversation around this because this conversation is is grounded in in truth. Artificial intelligence, Bible translation. Um, as of right now, one of the most controversial areas of of using artificial intelligence is Bible translation. The Bible is not translated in every language known to man.

As a matter of fact, uh, a large number of of translations of small people groups and islands and areas do not have the the Bible in their own language.

And the u the AI friendly people would like to use artificial intelligence to translate the Bible into the heart language of these remote people groups. Everyone has a translation of the Bible quickly. Um the purists that do not want to use artificial intelligence uh would argue that they do not trust artificial intelligence to translate the word of God.

And they would also argue into this conversation that translating scripture is actually the best way to start to plant churches in those uh faroff lands in those remote people group areas.

And so doing it remotely, doing it manually as opposed to artificial intelligence, it allows you to build relationships with people. You can bring them to Christ and and then at that point you can start a church in that space through the process of the translation but unfortunately it takes years I don't know

The number, but a big number of years to translate accurately a scripture whereas art manually, whereas artificial intelligence would do it in a matter of days or weeks at a much quicker level. Are we, and Trisel, I would love for you to speak to it if you're up for that. This example, if not, yield. Are you up for that example? Okay, Trisel, I'll let you go first. What are we thinking about this?

I've worked with a lot of translators or translation groups. And one of the things, especially even in current translations, we're talking about new translations, which I think just by nature, especially if they're more indigenous languages that don't have a lot of bilingual speakers like this, it does take a lot of work to get on the ground and actually understand the language itself. However, because of the compiling nature of the LLMs, I mean, it's a large language model. That's what the base of a lot of this stuff is. And so the computer being able to go through and make a lot of assessments, especially about current language usage, it can cut down the time that used to be tedious by hand a lot.

So like one of my friends, he had been working, I think it was with Wycliffe for years, but he was doing modern translations. So what he would be doing is he would be matching and figuring out how the language had changed over time through articles, through all the written text that had come out, to try and more faithfully translate a newer translation in modern language for a more modern time.

And so I think for aspects of that, there's a lot. I think we're looking at this, and Jurassic Park talked about this a lot with when they first digitized visual effects. But you know, the whole thing was when Phil Tippett from ILM first saw the first digital test of the T-Rex out in sunlight and stuff, Steven Spielberg supposedly looked over at him and he's like, "What do you think?" He goes, "I think I'm extinct." But it ended up that they arranged things for the puppeteers that had learned on the physical thing to use that same skill set and all that technique that they had used to be able to translate that into the computer, and they were still actually doing that work.

And so I think in the same way we keep thinking that, oh, this is going to take everything. We're going to click D for or C for creature and D for dinosaur, you know, and the whole thing is going to pop out. And there's a lot of cultivation that's happening. And I think the same thing with the translation, that there are aspects of this that are extremely tedious or like prone to human error and trying to manage all this data that the LLMs can do a significant heavy lifting of. And then it's the editorial, it's the going in and double-checking. It's the proofreading, the editing, double-checking, triple-checking stuff to make sure that it is an appropriate translation.

And I think there's with indigenous language, I think there's a lot of opportunity for LLM to help build dictionaries and speed that process of actually getting to a base understanding of the language to then start the translation process.

You know, it's interesting. I've actually watched a lot of documentaries about the early Industrial Light and Magic days. And a lot of people lost their jobs, moving from the giant construction to computers. And a lot of technology was created as a result of that. All of Adobe came out of Industrial Light and Magic in those early days.

You know, it's interesting even back when the printing press. I always blank on the printing press. Who invented the printing press?

Gutenberg. Yeah, Gutenberg was a villain in the church because all of the priests who were scribes who would manually write out the scriptures, they all were out of a job. And so he was vilified in the church for many years as a result of it. And so there's always the flip side.

All right, Jesse, you got your hand raised?

Yes. So pretty much covered a lot of what we're talking about, the idea of translating information from one culture to another, not just word-for-word translations. I do want to point out there are two types of translations. So there is the Greek to a translation. Then there's a translation of what we already have.

So I say I'm going to take the Greek and I'm going to sit down with a bunch of Greek experts and extrapolate what it means from it into a particular language. But then there's also, I'm going to take the NIV or I'm going to take the Message and I'm going to try to convert it into what that is.

I think utilizing that kind of translation, when you take the NIV and try to transpose it over, I think using LLM and stuff like that would be great, but there is the idea of the check and balance.

Yeah, especially when it comes to, because for instance, there was a movie called The End of the Spear, which is about missionaries that went to Ecuador, and in it the main character who came to Ogden, he said that he saw these men jump the great boa, you know, and so what that meant to them was that he saw them die and go to heaven, you know. Important, I think you mentioned imperializing the world, you know, like how do we translate this today? There, I think AI is going to help a lot faster, but we definitely need to have people involved to maintain the integrity of what's both in their culture and with what the Bible is actually expressing.

Yeah, Jesse, that's really good. I hadn't even thought about imperialism AI carrying over a different culture into that equation.

That's something though, because right now, what is the AI culture? You know, what does the AI have a culture? It's many-faceted. Is it Puerto Rican? You know what I mean? Is it Asian? What is it?

Yeah, Quinton, you may just because I, Quinton, by the way, has a doctorate in AI ethics from some university that I can't pronounce. And so I'm asking him this just because I think of everybody on the thing, he's got the most hours on this topic. What is the imperialism concern with artificial intelligence? Is that something that it will carry through, or how is that represented in this example?

You know, I think it's very much again how we use it. If you think about it, and I'm sure a lot of you know that the LLM, the large language model specifically, is a model that's been trained on the best of human thought and the worst of human thought. And literally included in that is all the aspects of imperialism. Also is all the aspects of local cultures within India or within the Philippines, and so those aspects are all there.

Now, of course, we need to remember, based on the loading of what data comes from where, there may be a much greater component that is Western or maybe US-based. But then when you get other models, like for instance the DeepSeek model, which is a Chinese-based model, their training has been clearly balanced or leans towards much more of the Chinese-based thinking. And then in the next step, of course, you go through the whole reinforcement learning and fine-tuning process where you could put guardrails if you wish. You got your LLM which has got all this information, and then you make it polite by putting guardrails around it, which is done through human reinforced learning. And that human reinforced learning process is essentially the AI will give answers and humans will just literally go in and say, "That's a better answer. That's a worse answer." And so essentially load it up. Now, those people actually doing that, we use humans. I know AI has been used in some cases now, but we use humans. Those may be people around the world, and we know there was a situation, I believe it was somewhere in Africa, it was Kenya or Nigeria, that people were paid next to nothing to actually go through this process of human reported learning. And so their ethics and their thinking was essentially part of what put those guardrails in.

So then if you then say, right, so if you think about imperialism, so they make the question, imperialism built into the AI? Well, it may have been in there, kind of in the original worst and best of human thought, but in some ways it's been guardrailed by the people who've done the human reinforced learning. And then of course you get this fine-tuning happening after that. And so there is this mechanism of using the data and then making sure the data works in your way, but it always has got the original bad and good thoughts that are embedded there, but it's been made right. Just like our kids, you know, deep inside them understand everything we told you. You can't do that. You shouldn't do that. Say thank you. We say please. You know, all that is kind of built into the AI. And so if you look at it in terms of how much is it going to be driving that thinking built into those models? Absolutely. Have some of those models any imperialistic thinking? And so we'll be applying that in its answers, whether it's visible or an underlying concept, because built into this neural network is kind of linking between what it's read and learned. And through self-learning, it'll actually build patterns. And so it'll build patterns that if it gets lots of imperialistic thinking, it'll build those patterns into its brain, if you wish, like our neurons and synapses. And so literally it'll create that problem.

So it will always be biased one direction, and you can through prompting you can say don't do that. But just like you can say to someone, you know, someone who is a South African, act like an American. I can try hard, but I know it's going to be popping out. And so the same thing in this Bible translation process. And one thing I like about the Mission AI conference recently, we saw there was talking about what they're doing, and I love what they're doing in terms of they give a whole lot to AI to get the first pass, and then they use what they call, I think it's Paratext notes, which basically says let's bring it into the right appropriate process. And so they do it in the Paratext way, and then they give it to locals and say, right, we've done our best at getting this into something that would work in your language. Validate for us. And that whole cycle that they're using significantly speeds up this whole process. But as you're saying, each of these elements, you've got this likelihood that AI is going to be bringing in its own trained-in thinking into how it's translating the Bible, and part of that might be a Buddhist approach. It may come from somewhere else.

Trust but verify. It's interesting you're talking about the Africans not paid much to validate the AI. I actually have that job. Yeah, it pays twenty bucks an hour, you know, you just get in and do it. And you can send prompts. By the way, I'm not sure what AI I'm actually working for, but AI, I'm always like, "It's too rude, act nicer. It's too rude, act nicer. It's too rude, act nicer." That's like the go-to feedback. So yeah, it's that, that very much is a thing. Thank you for sharing that.

Steve, go ahead.

Well, when you first started talking about it, my immediate thought was, "No, no way. You can't just have AI translate into languages because they just get a couple words wrong in a verse and it's going to mean something totally different, totally wrong." So no, you can't.

And then I started thinking about it. Well, wait a minute. We've already done that, haven't we? If I handed somebody a King's Game version and a message version of the Bible and depending on what verse you gave, they're going to get something totally different out of those two.

Yeah. So, and it's interesting even like, um, I think Jesse was talking about like the word for word versus the thought for thought, you know, like the—I think the—I'm going back to my Christian bookstore days, but like the, uh, the NASB is an example of like a word for word translation. King James, no, King James was more middle, but like a thought for thought where every word in Greek and Hebrew was translated in, in like NASB.

And then thought for thought is more like the Message where it'll take a paragraph and will just translate so that that paragraph basically gets converted over. And then there's all sorts of different, uh, temperatures in between that's more word for word or more thought for thought.

So you're right, a lot of this already has been assumed a little bit or done.

Yeah, I guess my ending thought on it was yes, use AI but back it up with human checking the best you can make some.

Yeah, absolutely.

Uh, who's next? Uh, Micah.

Yeah, I thought the question of translation was incredibly interesting. It makes me actually want to learn more about how AI is being leveraged in translation, particularly field translation, because like it's not just you're not just comparing text, right? You're like, "Oh, I'm just going to look at their version of Don Quixote and that'll tell me how to like translate the Bible, right? Like it's all verbal presumably." So that's super interesting. Um, but that conversation got me thinking about how much I think the questions around the technique of how we transmit the Bible to these cultures that don't have a written text yet. How revealing that is about our own values in in in in Western English speaking society. Um, about knowledge and humanity and discipleship and human growth and development.

Um, you know, the first Christians didn't get the New Testament, right? They got the gospel from missionaries who spoke it to them. Um, and so like I think I think even even even you know super evangelical folks who love the Bible would say like you know like the early church didn't—the early church didn't have the New Testament. They had to receive it orally um and and hear it. Uh and and something that I think maybe we we're at risk of not appreciating enough is how much they didn't just hear the gospel spoken but they met the apostles and they met the missionaries and they got in relationship with them and they they grew with them and you know in some cases like Paul would stay with churches for months or even years sometimes and and the other missionaries did this too and the church in Jerusalem you know they were they were they were sitting together and eating together and praying together and living life together and like that is simply handing someone the Bible like that's certainly not a bad thing but that's there's some missing ingredients there right and and so think about the process of translating the Bible like I think if we had a magical machine which AI supposed to be, but is not. If we had a magical machine that could perfectly and accurately according to God's own will translate the scriptures exactly how they're supposed to be, we would use the box, right? We would give them the Bible. But I do think that we're missing something there. If we think like that's the end of the story, like like that's just maybe at best the beginning of the story. It might be in the middle of the story. The beginning of the story is like, "Hi, I'm Micah. Like let me tell you about how Jesus has changed my life." And then they might be interested in the Bible. Then they might be interested in the stories I would tell them, but like so it just got me thinking about that and how like AI can never like can never and absolutely should never replace that.

AI can't be in a relationship with anybody, not a real relationship. And so like I and I I think like you know to use do you use uh to use industry speaker? I think that's really the church's value add here. It's not it's not the technique, it's the humans, it's the relationship, it's the witness, it's community.

So that raised a lot of thoughts for me. I thought very interesting.

No, that that's good reinforcing the the the the human aspect. Uh very incarnational from the digital microchurch guys. So what well earned with with that title there. Uh Pete, what were you what you thinking?

Uh are you talking to me?

Yeah.

I have a personal friend in VR in virtual reality. We've been good friends for six years. Been a part of a Zoom Bible study every Wednesday night. He's an elderly gentleman and his wife passed away. He's alone. He's lonely. Uh he is has computer skills and we fellowship and I try to encourage him. But he is involved with the ChatGPT and he tells me about this lady he's met and how nice she is and how comforting and you know he receives comfort from that and I I don't know what to say but that's just my thought about that and and I just I'm very apprehensive of trying to investigate. I'm always wanting to learn new things with computers, but for some reason I'm checked in my spirit. I I don't know. I don't want to miss out on what God the Lord will take everything and for his good, but I'm for me.

Well, you know, Pete, I I would tell you this. It's it's funny. I I was actually I was doing a podcast recently and um and I forget who it was. It'll come to me in a little bit, but I I said on the stream I I was like, "Yeah, I drink like a Trenta coffee a day. Uh an extra-large Starbucks daily because I actually need that much coffee to to get me going." And um and and the person who was on the we weren't even talking about we were talking about supposed to talk about something completely different and and the person chastised me for drinking that much coffee. They were like if you have to have that much of something in your life then something is off and you are missing something something is wrong and and you're supplementing it with with something else.

And and so like if you're if there's somebody in their life that is missing that is so off and is missing so much in physical relationships that they're supplementing it completely with an artificial intelligence, a bot or something like that. Um, number one, there's probably something missing or something else is is off in that. I don't I don't know that I want to get into the weeds in that relationship, but I I would tell you and I can't even say in the weeds because my friends in South Africa tell me that that means I want to go smoke pot with them, which is not what I'm saying when I say in the weeds. Uh, but uh the the fact is is that there's probably something missing that that they they need to maybe start to explore.

Uh, if you're if you're because I don't think anybody here is is saying uh artificial intelligence as a as a persona. I I will tell you, yeah, and I can appreciate that Gramps is is nodding along. I will tell you that that we've talked about I have voiced uh to TCD leadership the idea of using um a virtual avatar in in times just because I was debating it through it at a personal level and all of TCD there's nothing there's very little in life that all of TCD leadership will 100% agree on and the fact is that nobody thought the idea of a virtual avatar was was a good idea and so yeah I don't think we're we're interested in going down that road.

Um Andrew what do you got what do you Kiwi?

Okay. I was just thinking um when I talk to maybe older people about um new technologies such as—oh, you can't see me very well, can you?

There we go. It's a bit better. Uh like AI, there's just this mystery around it. Like these new technologies drop out of the sky and we don't have any frame of reference to understand them and it can be a little intimidating. And I feel that one of our roles is to demystify it. And when it comes to AI, the way I see it, it's um obviously it's a massive improvement on on other ways of sorting knowledge, but it's been the human activity since animals in the garden naming all the animals and the plants according to Bob Dylan because somebody would eventually create taxonomies and hierarchies. It's just it's in our nature to tag and categorize and sort knowledge so that we can make wise decisions whether that's where to go for lunch or um or the weight balance trees of AI.

And I mean even the missionary role in what's his name? Um, oh, Ramon, Ramon Lull in the 1200s created the thinking machine. Probably the the closest thing we have in the middle ages to a current AI machine.

Um, so what I try and do is just make it a bit easier. And I think for bloggers, and this is what I want to say, for bloggers, 20 years ago, we had a deal with Google. Google gave us access to the inner workings of how to sort out which of our posts were the best and which um weren't that important. It was called Google Webmaster Tools, and we were able to uh once we had proven that we did own these blogs, we could go to all of our posts and assign them a certain number between 1 and 10, saying, "This one has more priority than these other ones. When somebody's looking for this, this is what I want you to show." So we a we were able 20 years ago in essence to make our own um sorting machine that um you know, so so the step from that into AI isn't such a massive step and perhaps there are ways in which we can demystify this whole thing. Thank you for listening.

Gabby. So good. Uh my gosh, I could listen to Kiwi talk all day long and it's not because of of the accent. Uh man, but he's uh he's just so uh on on the nose with us with this. Tall skinny Kiwi, if you're out there, I think you're watching right now, man. Thanks. Thanks for contributing in into that. It was these roundtables that we do are are fun. It's an it's an incredible opportunity uh to share to to get into the weeds without smoking pot. Um and uh and and to just share some some opinions around that. And and what what I like about it is is it it allows everybody in the room to to own a piece of the conversation and and that that you're you know really and this is you know take it take this for an example for how digital ministry is most effective. You allow people to have a conversation you listen to them and and through that conversation you guide people along the path.

And so u anyway it's a beautiful time. We do them. I'll try to do them once a month in 26. Uh scheduling sometimes gets gets difficult, but I've been wanting to dig in and do more of them in in the coming year as as well.

Well, hey, listen. I I'm excited about what's next. Uh we've got, you know, for the next couple hours, next hours. So, we've got live guests. We're going to end the show strong. I'd love to tell you I've been drinking a Trenta an extra-large cup of coffee. Uh this is water and uh the doctors, it's funny in hindsight talking about you know, hey Jeff, if something's if you got to drink a Trenta cup of iced coffee uh every day to get going, there's something wrong with you. Well, uh you know, the doctors are telling me, Jeff, your heart's kind of screwed uh as a result of maybe drinking so much coffee and and other things.

So, uh it's a it's a healthier Jeff uh for uh for my time left here on planet Earth. And and I and I pass that wisdom on to you, not the AI because you know AI um trust but verify is that that's always good advice. Uh but but I I I I will say this that you know if if your b if your life is so out of balance that you need things to to complement to help well then then maybe take stock of the thing that's really out of balance and figure out how to get it.

More in balance because things, even stuff as simple as coffee. You know, it's what are you covering healthily in your health that you need so much coffee in that situation? I don't want to get preachy. That's just take it from a guy that's having a bypass surgery next month. I, you know, I wish I would have drank more water instead of coffee.

Call it what you will. All right. Hey, let me push the next button here. I'm excited to bring on my next guest here. Tariq, Tariq, my friend. How are you doing, sir? Can you hear me okay?

Hello. Good evening there. Yes, I can hear you well.

Awesome. Tariq, thanks for thanks for joining us. Yeah, it's um wait, I just realized it's like eight. It's like six o'clock here. What time is it in Pakistan? Is this like two o'clock in the morning for you?

Yeah, it's it's uh early morning. It's like four, uh four to five now. Tariq, we should have done this at a time when when like the sun is up in Pakistan. Man, I man, I am I'm so thankful. I'm so appreciative that that you are that you scheduled this time and that that you're on this stream here for our our Giving Tuesday. But man, I did not in any way I didn't realize when when when we were doing this that that it'd be so early for you. But thank you for joining us today.

Thank you very much. It's my pleasure to be part of this and uh this would be my contribution for God's kingdom for his work and I'm glad for it.

Amen. Well, hey Tariq, as we're opening up here, so Tariq is our our outpost leader and uh it's teaches EDM in in Pakistan and so excited to have him on. Tariq, I think, don't quote me on this, but I'm pretty sure I had you on the Giving Tuesday stream last year as you were just doing EDM with Jason Morris um at that time. But maybe take a minute here and and you know, introduce yourself to to the crowd, you know, who you are and what your ministry looks like in in Pakistan.

Well, thank you very much. Um I make can introduce myself in this way that I am a believer here in Pakistan and uh I have passion for church planting and I used to move in different cities and do the in-person trainings but then I interact with the church digital from the last long uh conference and I attended that conference online as well. So in that uh on that conference it was uh interesting for me that having that uh digital church idea and then to see how it is working and that's how I uh come up to interact with Jeff and then with Jason and uh uh what I observe is this it's it's a very effective and quick tool that helped me not to travel all around to the other province or cities but I can just engage uh sometime known and sometime unknown uh people over there to with the gospel message that I have.

So in that way now I feel that in this last year I can see that many new people are interacting there with me just through the uh through the TikToks shorts and through the YouTube and it is not just interacting or not just the likes or uh comments but now the real conversation that is just be beginning over there that was be previously was happened with the in-person and at that time I was thinking that okay this could be happen only in person having uh a visit with a person or interaction with a pe with a person couple of time and months or weeks and then there will be time that you can share the gospel with them but now just that short video may trigger them and he would be interested to learn it more and he's just jumping in there or comment with this idea that okay what I can do next or how I can do know know more about it and then there is the followup then help me to uh know more about Christ and about gospel about the message that we have in the Bible.

So I'm serving here in Pakistan as a church planter and trying to reach new areas, new people, new friends and uh helping them know the good news.

Yeah. I got I got to tell you Tariq uh the first time I met you and you started talking about you know TikTok and and using TikTok in in in Pakistan that is those two words didn't didn't connect in in in in my mind like those I those are not two things that I would I would commonly put put together. Uh do you find a a lot of P maybe tell tell me some stories of of how Pakistanis people uh within your culture are are engaging you via via TikTok. What is that what does that actually look like?

Okay. Uh well the background of that is this that uh it is not every time easier to go to a person and to share the gospel. So uh when I interact with church digital I I and a little before that as well it was just some idea but uh idea but not a proper strategies for that. So after EDM I started that.

So with that I just make a short video with a clear message in Urdu language and I just start posting it. So uh the benefit of that is this that now my uh colleagues, my Muslim friends, my other uh people who were just like uh know me that I'm Christian. Now they in listen that direct message from that and now they likes they they commentate it and then whenever we see in person they say oh you shared this on that can you do prayer for us can you do this for us can you tell more on it so that is very good bonding actually or connecting new people or those who were existing or also those to whom I cannot share the gospel directly like at my workplace if If I will start doing that it might create problem and at my uh other friend circle or in community circle if I will start sharing that frequently it might be not very much easier for me but having that uh profile that okay I I used to do TikTok so now the people that I never thought that I make and share gospel with them as well.

Now when I interact with them they know me that okay I'm on the TikTok and I used to share and many Muslim friends they used to say oh yes we know you shared something about Bible that that was good I heard it or I like it or I have different opinion on it but in that way I feel that many new areas where I cannot go or open they are automatically open and I believe this is like the uh god's power that how he interacting with the people like one uh TikTok shot can be used in a multiple time that we actually learn in EDM that how it is uh evergreen. So I experience it like that even now the uh what I uh uploaded there in June or July people are still watching it they commenting on it and they interacting through that it's that's very good digital like access to digital technology you know even even in in Pakistan it's readily available people have like what are what are the platforms people are using in Pakistan.

Uh well uh the technology is easier available. The most uh are the TikTok and the WhatsApp and the YouTube and then the Facebook, Instagram.

Okay. These are the most common ones.

Interesting. And uh and so like you I'm I'm curious for for you on how using TikTok in in Pakistan. Are are you seeing like a younger generation engaging? Is it is it is it people your age like like who who is your audience that that that you're building in Pakistan?

Yeah. Well, the mostly my audience is like from twenty to forty years. So we can call them the young people. Yeah. Because those who are in forties they they are considered to be the youngest one.

Yeah. I mean I mean if even even a forty is probably is definitely younger than me. Let's say it that way. Uh and so I can I can can relate to that. Well, this is exciting and and you're you are doing you're doing ministry yourself, but you're also starting to uh to train some other people as well and starting to equip some others. I know I've met um one or two of your people in some of the open offices I I've done. So talk to me a little bit about like what EDM the equipping digital missionary course where now you're teaching it in in Pakistan. What does that look like?

Um yep uh through these EDMs now uh not only me there are many other people who know the EDM and uh the church digital they love that idea and they are praying for it and they are planning to utilize these uh strategies and tools and uh so far we did two EDMs right and uh now in Lahore in Karachi in Okara in Abbottabad uh in if we will say Abbottabad then there would be the three provinces of Pakistan right so otherwise mainly the two provinces like Punjab and Sind where people are uh attending the EDM they love it love the content and EDM uh is actually giving them the approach that how they can understand because uh I would like to mention uh when I was doing And there were some guys from Karachi literally they said that oh we we used to uh use internet but it was just sort of uh posting things but not looking forward that how intentionally or strategically we can uh interact there with other people. So uh they are learning it and there are lot of space for it as it is in rest of the world as well.

But here in Pakistan uh under tough situations even it is the safest way to just share your opinion share your share your thought and in that way it is a very uh easy or appropriate way to share the gospel because I'm not uh inviting someone to watch mine automatically they are doing search or sometime on TikTok it is for you So people who who are following me and uh I was happy that there was some video uh that I shared in um June or July or August maybe and there was like six thousand people who view it. So it is uh in person it is it would take lot of funds and lot of energy lot of time and travel but through digital uh church I I I guess it it this this is only possible that you can uh reach to hundreds and thousands of people with a very limited or one-time investment. So that's why I would love to encourage to all those who are watching this uh live stream that that would be great if you will uh serve the lord by giving uh church digital today because it is not only uh for that particular time or year like although uh we are raising fund for this year that is the uh fifty thousand and it will not only impact this one year but it there are multiple years that that uh giving will keep uh giving the uh impact in different lives.

So it would be very much valuable to uh strengthen the church digital so that those areas those are unreached and those people who cannot have that direct access where we cannot go in person or we cannot make direct connection with them but uh a natural connection we can make it for them through the internet.

That's that's that's beautiful man. Well, well spoken. You know, I you're you're my pitch man from now on. That was a that was a a a really good job. But the the the heart behind the the church digital is to empower guys uh like Tariq around the planet, women as as well, and to to reach people in their unique contexts. And you know say it time and time again the way that Tariq is using TikTok in in Pakistan works in Pakistan um not sure it works in America not sure it works in other places but we're seeing success with it in Pakistan and so as Tariq is now training a generation of digital missionaries in his context over there hopefully we're going to see uh that continue on uh through Simon and through Steve and Utope and and and the others uh Leighton and the others that we've we've had here on the stream today at at the outpost level.

Uh but man, it has been such a blessing, Tariq, uh to see your ministry grow in in Pakistan. Um and and I'm excited to to see um what God is is going to do through you in twenty twenty-six and beyond. So, as as we're wrapping up here, um it's Tariq, if someone's interested in your specific ministry in Pakistan, wants to get more information uh to you or wants to contribute and support you in Pakistan, uh how how can they learn more, access more about or get in touch with you?

Uh well, in Pakistan, I'm doing uh mainly uh for church planting and for youth. So we have a website that is called yrcp.org.pk.

So it's our website where all what we are doing is there and there is link as well to those who would like to be our partner to reach the areas of Pakistan and that would be great if you are praying for Pakistan.

So here is, here many times it feels that we need many new laborers here, servants, hard people who can serve the Lord here and to help others to know Christ and to win them for Christ.

So my website is yrcp.org.pk. YRCP dot org.pk for Pakistan, yrcp.org.pk. Awesome. Hey Tariq, man, thank you for jumping on the stream here.

Man, I'm once again I'm excited to see what God is doing in Pakistan. You know what we do here with the courses, you know, take a single person through EDM. It's about $150 worth of training and materials and platform costs. And you know, all the external costs that are centered around that. And we, the Church Digital, we do it for free in hopes that we can reach honestly people like Tariq here. I'm not even going to ask Tariq the question, "Hey Tariq, if you had $150 US, would you give it to the Church Digital?" Because the answer is going to be no. I don't want to put him on the spot.

Like, he, money is money is hard to come by in that region. Money's globally, internationally is very tough, at least compared to the US economy. And as a result of that, the only way we can equip people like Tariq to do this ministry is if we are doing it for free and giving it away.

And so as a result, we're asking for people like you watching the stream right now to support a full cohort for equipping digital missionaries. It's about $1,500. And so we're looking for funding like this to keep our lights on so that we can keep finding and equipping digital missionaries like Tariq globally.

And to be honest, Tariq, you've heard me say this before. I want to get to the place where we start to be able to support our digital missionaries globally where we can start to fund people in the field like Tariq and others. Right now, money is so tight, we can barely keep our lights on, much less support others in that. But it's our goal. It's my personal goal to get to the place where we are specifically funding missionaries who are out there in that space like Tariq who are doing bivocational ministries, doing what they're doing globally for the kingdom digitally.

And so Tariq, man, thanks for jumping on the stream. So thankful for you. If you're interested in supporting the Church Digital and helping us connect with more like Tariq and what's happening there, go to thechurch.digital/give or you can check out Tariq's website, yrcp.org.pk.

Tariq, man, thanks very much for jumping on the stream once again and appreciate your time, man. Have a great day. Once again, I'm sorry that you had to do this at 4:30 in the morning your time, but nobody should see me that morning. It's my prayer. Thank you very much. Thank you very much for letting me be part of it.

Yes, sir. Time zones are the bane. Yeah, thank you, sir. Time zones are the bane of existence. I really, I am not a time zone fan. I do appreciate Tariq coming on early. Man, I'm really excited about this, some of the stuff that's coming out of Tariq, some of the stuff that's coming out of our global outpost leaders. It's been really rewarding to see the ideas of digital evangelism and digital discipleship spread, to hear some of the reports about "Sharing Jesus Online," the book, being so effective in their contexts. And in moving on, you know, I don't, and one of the things we'll have to sit down with Tariq at some point: do we need to contextualize? Do we need to translate it into the language to make it more helpful or not? You know, I know Tariq has talked about having us come in to kind of really cheer on what's happening and support what's happening in Pakistan. And you know, the others that I've taught, who I've talked to within his ecosystem, have been so supportive and so encouraging about the effect of the Church Digital. Time will tell, you know. And as I said with all of this, it's really just at the heart of it, really is about this idea of how quickly God is calling us to move. And the unfortunate reality is that we don't control that answer. God does. And in many ways, you do. Because like, you know, we're going to resource Tariq as best we can. Financially, we're in a tight situation right now where we don't have the ability to fund as much as we would like because we're just on a cash freeze right now. We're not paying anybody anything. And so as a result of that, you know, we just have not been able to move fast at all. But with funding, getting "Sharing Jesus Online" getting the cohorts translated into Hindi, Bengali, Pakistani—is Pakistani the language?—let's pretend. Getting it translated into those contexts would be very easy for us to do. The funding is literally the gas.

I believe that God will multiply the bread and the fish. I think he's going to break it up. He's going to take the little crumbs we can afford and he's going to do something incredible with it. You know, to keep the analogy going, we can get some more bread. It would be great. If we can get some more crumbs to put together for God to do something incredible with, that's great.

And so if you got that five bucks, you got that ten bucks, twenty-five bucks, fifty bucks a month, whatever it is, the church.digital/give is a great way to give and to connect to that.

So hey, I got a couple people in the green room. DeMarcos, you're actually you're on time. I'm late. DeMarcos, I'll be a little late, man, for you. But let me go ahead and bring into the conversation Pastor Coco. And so Pastor Coco, thanks for coming on the stream today.

And you can hear me fine.

Yeah, you sound great. Okay, Pastor. So Pastor Coco was on the live stream a year ago. And this may have been, I don't know, may I mean, I'm sure we connected before then, but I don't know that we really had as good of a conversation, as deep a conversation as we had the last time you were on a year ago.

And man, you made me cry a year ago on stream. I'll confess that. I'm starting to tear up even. You don't remember? You don't remember the conversation a year ago?

Wow. Okay. Wow. That now all of a sudden I'm like the creepy guy with that. And so let's do this because I'm going to ask you to set yourself up and then I'll get into why I was like crying off of the conversation a year ago. But Pastor Coco from VR MMO Church, why don't you talk a little bit about your ministry on the MMO side of things, what you're doing in Final Fantasy and we'll go from there.

Okay. Um, hi. Pastor Coco. I am one of the elders in VR MMO Church and I run the Final Fantasy 14 platform of our church, which is a massively multiplayer online role-playing game. And it's an interesting community. We have services every other Saturday and I just really focus on discipleship and transformation. I'm trying to get people because a lot of our people are actually already Christians and they're just looking for like-minded people who like gaming because they have a hard time fitting in in IRL churches. So that's the kind of people that have been gathering in our church. And so I'm just focusing on, okay, how do I disciple these people to get them to think and try to live more Christlike? And so yeah, going deep into topics, deconstructing topics, killing sacred cows and all kinds of things is what we at Final Fantasy Church do.

Yeah, you are. You're literally on the front lines of ministry, doing ministry in Final Fantasy, a literal video game, an online video game. By the way, my seventeen-year-old daughter is obsessed with Final Fantasy. And so you know, so many young children, I suspect a lot of young females, are very prevalent in the community of Final Fantasy. And you know, the thing that really struck me last time we had talked on the stream, a year ago, was you. I caught you on a bad day, like I admit that. And you were talking about how you felt like you were doing ministry alone. And you were talking about, you know, a lot of lack of volunteers, a lack of resourcing. And really, I mean, not telling a story that is very common in digital and virtual ministry circles because there is often, it's we are very underresourced. We're very misunderstood. We're not the typical shiny ministry that people want to write checks to or things like that because of our unique approaches to ministry. We do wig some people out. And really, you know, it's I can just remember doing the illustration. It's like you were talking about, you were like one of the few people leaders in the Final Fantasy church. And I remember doing the example of, okay, there's like twenty million active users in Final Fantasy. That's like the population of New York City. And you, Pastor Coco, have just planted a church in New York City and you are the only pastor in the entire city of New York City and you're trying to care for everybody and protect everybody and help everybody. But you've got no ecosystem support system or a limited ecosystem support system to help you with that.

Limited.

Yeah. And you know, and just that, man, that tugged at my heartstrings a year ago. And I can remember, I mean, you were the conversation. You know, and I know our relationship has grown since then, but you were the conversation that stuck with me for days, for weeks afterwards. In every staff meeting I would have, talking with Andy, talking with Chino, talking with Leighton, talking with our team, even Stacy, it's like, what are we going to do? Like, this is wrong. This cannot happen. How do we help this? How do we step in? How do we alleviate? How can we empower? And by the way, I dare say Pastor Coco is not the only person a year ago who is frustrated with some of this. I'm sure even today there were others. There are others that are on a similar path and journey. Well, Pastor Coco, let's do a temperature check a year later. How you doing?

I'm doing okay. I'm burnt out because I'm having to work multiple jobs, but I've been hearing that all day.

Well, welcome to the new normal, unfortunately. But you know, it's the bivocational model. It works. The challenge is that you've got to lead really well and you've got to multiply yourself very well. You know, I know one of the things, and you know, I met for a season with Pastor Coco and some of the other pastors with VR MMO. And I know, you know, Leighton has been spending a lot of time with you as well. But there's a lot of, I'm wanting to say the word drama. I don't know if that's the right word, but there's a lot of backstories. There's a lot of drama that's kind of happening in these spaces. There's a lot of persecution. There's a lot of spiritual warfare.

I would say in what I'm seeing out of the Final Fantasy church, the virtual reality church as well. VRMMO, that's you may have heard of DJ Sodto years ago as a well-known virtual reality pastor, one of the first digital pastors on the planet.

And so this is his church. DJ's still a part of what's happening there, but a lot of the leadership has fallen to some others instead of DJ with this.

Oh, is he back? How's that going?

He's back.

Yeah.

Is that good?

He's doing well. We met in person a month ago. Alina and I and DJ met together in person.

Did you go up to Austin for the PBS story?

Well, I just drove.

Yeah. But yeah, I did not go for the PBS story. Alina and DJ did. And then I purposefully went the day after they left because I didn't want to be on PBS.

I'm not against PBS. I just didn't want to be on national TV.

No way she wants to be on camera.

That's fun. I'm never on camera, right?

Yeah.

So how do you stay healthy? What does healthy look like for you? Mentally, emotionally, spiritually, you know, when you're opening up saying, "Yeah, I'm burned out." Like, what do you do with that tension?

Well, I'm trying to figure out how to balance it all because I just took on I just doubled my pay hours at my part-time job. So just trying to figure out how am I going to do this because right now I feel like I'm not really doing as much with ministry because I'm tired. It's like the job that I do is mentally draining. It's very mentally intense. So when I'm done with it, it's like I just want to veg now. So I'm trying to figure out like how do I balance that? And since y'all joined and started helping us figure out ways of multiplying, we've started doing that. Um, and I'm getting the community involved in every other service. They will do the service instead of me. And I'm like, "Y'all figure out what you want to do. I'm just showing up." So we've been doing that. And it's like the threat was, "If you don't do this, I'm going to put you through a seminary level course and you're going to like it." So they've been doing it.

That's funny. Anything to stay away from seminary. That's beautiful. But you know, I mean it. And then I also exercise when I can, but eating healthy. And I get up earlier in the day so I can spend time studying and reading so I can get a better calmness to my day instead of just going straight into the chaos.

Man, that's more diligence and intentionality than I do. So good for you. I've got to take some notes. What do you do to work out? What do you do?

You want me to call you out on stream?

You listen, I've got a bypass surgery next month. I'll call myself out.

Yes, I'm aware. Um, I have an exercise bike that I keep behind the chalkboard and I'll pull that out and exercise.

Okay. Interesting. What are you reading? I also do all my own manual labor and stuff. So like home repairs and stuff.

Yeah. What are you reading recently? Like what's been a good book or article?

At least five or six books at a time.

That's excessive.

Which one? That's normal, man. I've been reading some good ones. Half the Church is what I'm reading right now. It's about women in God's call for women.

Half the Church. That's interesting. I hadn't heard that. Um, I will look into that. Who's the author? Do you mind? Do you know?

I think that one's Carolyn Custous James.

Okay.

So she wrote two books. She wrote one for men and one for women. And the one for men is called the Maelstrom, talking about men and their calling and how the enemy has distracted men from their calling. And then there's the one for women as well.

That's interesting. So it's a one-two punch. Hey men, you're missing it. Hey women, here's an opportunity. Really good. Excuse me. Um, and so, hey, we got Chaplain Stacy Knap. Hey, Coco. So great to see you, and so, value how you love your church. Yeah. I mean, so good. I know Stacy, Stacy's been working with you pretty closely with the care stuff, and so I know you started helping out and starting to get into some of the Project Exodus stuff. We had Conrad Cooper, the CEO of Project Exodus on earlier on the stream. You know, I'd love to know, one of the challenges I brought to you is, okay, how do we provide care for people in or through virtual reality? What does that even mean? What are the challenges? What are the cultural adaptations? What do we need to do? Man, I'd love and you were nice enough to write like a six-page thesis for us or something like that. But man, I'd love your take on some of this. How's it going? What excites you about it? Like, you know, just give me an update.

Well, we're just getting into the test run of the Thrive course that we're going to be working on. Um, and we're going to start that on Thursday this week. And so far, I am very interested. I like the curriculum and the structure. There are definitely some adaptations that are going to have to be made for digital and specifically VR. And depending on which platform you go in, there's going to need to be some adaptation. Um, because for example, the rule for a session is no device. It's how you gonna do that. So then you have to figure out, well, how are we going to keep them from getting distracted while they're on their device?

Yeah.

Um, so you challenge like that. I think it's going well. I am looking forward to when we will be able to get this out to people because there's a huge need for it. Um, I've seen it for a while. I've been trying to gather resources and share them and wanting there to be resources for people who can't get mental health help at home for various reasons. Um, because it's like everything is multiplied in the metaverse. So what you see out in the world like as far as mental health issues, that is multiplied. And um, I caught a little taste of the keynote earlier from Project Exodus where he was talking about addiction and what was it, 70 something percent of men addiction, 70s something women as well. I would say it's in the 90s in digital space easy. Um, so definitely a need for the program for sure. And it's also reassuring because some of the things that they say to do, the best practices for facilitation, are some of the things that we've been already trying to do in the church just to create a safe space for people. And so hearing that, hey, we're doing it right, is encouraging.

That's good. We like that. Um, how did you find it hard? I'm just curious. Did you find going through the material to get certified? Was it hard? I don't know that I had this conversation with you yet. Was it difficult?

I don't think it was hard. It was time consuming.

Time consuming.

It was time consuming.

Yeah.

But it wasn't difficult.

That's one of the things.

And so the concern is time consuming for scalability. Yeah, that's the thing. And we've got, you know, it's funny. We had Conrad Cooper, the CEO, on and you know he was talking about if he said this quote and it was really good. I don't remember it, but he was like, if it's easy, it cheapens it. And so you need to make it time consuming for it to have value. And you know, it was like an aha and a wait. But that's the thing because scalability, it's going to be hard, but you're going to scale healthily as opposed to unhealthily by cheapening the process.

Yeah. The people that actually finish it are more likely to stick around.

Yeah, because we've tried to do training ourselves through the church and it's like there's a very few people who've actually finished one thing and it's like I don't think most of them are around anymore.

So let me ask this. You know, now with at VR MMO as you're doing church in Final Fantasy right now, 2026 right around the corner. What's your biggest need? What's the biggest challenge or struggle or issue you're facing right now?

Finances are always a challenge. Um, we are all having to get our finances elsewhere. It's like just like everyone else who's been talking today, we're having to work other jobs to finance both the church and ourselves. Um, so but 2026 is our ten year anniversary.

Very cool. Congratulations. I don't think I realized that 2026 is ten years. Um, and so is DJ, you guys, I'm not looking for any like secrets here, but you guys have anything special planned?

We want to plan something but we haven't yet.

Stay stay tuned.

When are you celebrating? At what month?

June.

June. You got time. There's all sorts of.

Yeah.

Um, between now and then. Um, here at Leighton's giving you some encouragement. Every day we hustling. Um, I don't know if that means anything to you, but um, hopefully that's a little bit of an encouragement. Uh, I will say in the bivocational world, especially in the contract world that you and I live in, um, you gotta work for your food so to speak. And um, you know, uh, I spent last week in the hospital and um, didn't earn much food last week. Thankfully, my wife was able to has a job and is covering in some of that. But you know, that's some of the burden burdened with bivocational ministry. And where it's now you've got, you're doing ministry, but you're not paid to do that. And so you've got to work to fundraise to do that. What do you do? What's your bivocational job? Are you allowed to say? Otherwise you may not be able to say.

I can't say details. Um, one, I'm trying to start my own startup training on how to design for VR. But the other one I can't really talk much about. It's um, design as well.

Okay. Sorry, I didn't mean to put you on the spot.

UX. Very good. Yes, she works for a very unique um industry. And so, but that's good. Um, Pastor Coco, um, you know, as we're wrapping up with you today, um, you know, how can we be praying for you? Funding, finances, and anything else aside from that?

Energy, health. Um, I'm getting tested for um, autoimmune again next year in January. Um, and Alina's health, DJ's health. Um, yeah, just health. And vrchurch.org/donate is if you want to give, is where you can donate. Um, but energy, the ability to focus on what it is I'm supposed to be focused on at a given time. So when I'm working, I need to focus on work. I need to focus on ministry at some point. Um, yeah. So being able to like, this is what I'm doing right now, and um, having the energy to continue to do the ministry and multiply. I'm not going to quit it, but I do feel like I'm not doing as much as I could for sure because I'm too busy working.

It's hard to get the balance. I think between work and ministry, it's something that takes time. And you'll, if and I'm no expert in this, but I've talked to people that have had far more experience than I have. And you know, it's you lean heavy one side, you lean heavy the other, and eventually you find this sweet spot where you have ministry fulfillment in work as well. But it's um, it's hard. You got to find the right jobs, the right contracts for you, the right balance, and it's stuff that just takes time.

But we'll, uh, let me do this right now. I'll pray. I'll pray for you. Is that okay? Can I pray for you right now?

Is that all right? Heavenly Father God, I pray for and I thank you for Pastor Coco. I thank you for the work that she's doing partnering with the Church Digital to get Christ-centered recovery into virtual reality and gaming spaces.

Um, and God, there's such a need, uh, such an opportunity, uh, such a demand, um, as we try to claim these virtual worlds and these spaces for you and try to seek and save the lost in that space.

So, but God, um, ministry is hard in these spaces and you've heard many stories about the struggle of funding. You've heard many stories as well about the needs for recruiting and developing leaders and that.

And God, I pray specifically for the ministry of VR MMO Church. I pray for DJ. I pray for Alina. I pray for Coco.

Um, I pray for all the leaders that are involved in there. God, thank you for their ten-year history coming up later this year.

But God, we take a moment to not only celebrate that, but to pray that you would continue to change lives through the life of that church in virtual reality and metaverse spaces. God, at a personal level, I pray for Coco for the efforts that she's fundraising for herself and I pray for her work ministry balance.

And um, I just pray for her even personal mental health as she's balancing on being burned out and trying to recover from that.

But God, we're thankful for you even in the midst of all of this, God, that you're worthy of our efforts.

And so thank you, God, for what you're doing in and around Coco, even as we speak. We love you. Thank you for loving us and using us in the way that you do.

In your name we pray. Amen. All right. Hey, so Pastor Coco, check out vrchurch.org. Donate.vrchurch.org/donate. Right. Yeah. Very good.

Some quick math for you for reality real quick. I did a Google earlier to see what is the minimum amount of money for one person to live comfortably, meaning their needs are met and they have a little leftover for emergency.

In Texas, ninety thousand. Wow. Depending on where you live. Yeah. It's more in cities, but yeah. Yeah. I can imagine that.

Yeah. The, um, you know, one stat that I throw out all the time for Miami—Miami was cited recently as the second poorest city in America.

And the stat that they found for that is that the average house in Miami costs five hundred thousand. The average full-time income in Miami, the full-time job income is thirty-seven thousand.

And the percentage disparity between thirty-seven thousand annual fee and the five hundred thousand house payment. That's how they came up with Miami the second.

Um, listen, it's yeah. I live this tension, you know, on a regular basis. I love that we're doing ministry as cheap as we are and we're empowering volunteers and we're scaling this out, but I'm not going to lie, it's really hard to do bivocational ministry effectively.

Um, you know, and so it's, you know, I tell people all the time, I tell my leadership all the time, the answer is not slow down.

The answer is involve more people. And the necessity for us with the Church Digital, I know this has been the challenge of VR MMO for the past year, is re-engaging and rebuilding that volunteer culture and recruiting more to step up, moving some people around so they're in the right seats and moving forward. That's even still a reality for us today with the Church Digital. Like there's lots of things that we want to do and to be honest, this is ironic for a guy that's saying, "Hey, we want to 2x the budget to 10x our impact. Uh, we need more money. Please consider giving to the Church Digital." The answer to, you know, the Church Digital's problems.