EP 331 - Questions - Why Are There So Few Women in Digital Ministry?

All right. Hey everybody, welcome to Church Digital Podcast. We're doing a live recording here of episode 331. I'm excited about the conversation coming up.

We've actually been getting some action on this conversation in our WhatsApp channel talking about the role of ministry and really the lack of women that are currently speaking in and leading in digital ministry circles.

And so we've got a lineup of some ladies coming in. As a matter of fact, Amanda Souza said hello in chat earlier just a second ago.

I want to give a shout out to some of the other people hanging out with us in chat. So Edith, Steve, appreciate you coming in. Amanda as well and any of the others that are out there. We'll be keeping an eye on chat. So feel free to ask questions as we're going through this, engage in chat. We'll be sure to see you and dialogue with you through this conversation.

I want to say upfront, talking about women in ministry, I don't have answers. I am probably more of the problem than the solution towards this, and we do want to draw attention not only to the issue and the problem of what's here. And I don't know that we can solve the problem today, but maybe start to take some practical steps towards how can we really engage and involve more women in digital ministry moving forward. And so looking forward to this conversation.

Before we get there, up here, right there, point finger that way. It's so hard for me to do this backwards. I don't know if you have that problem, but we have our missionary, our digital missionary conference coming up here April 2nd. Missionary.digital is the website. It is a free conference, maybe at seven hours in time, six or seven hours at this point. We've got keynotes. There's been so much popularity centered around our breakouts. We had to add a whole other breakout session for this to allow people opportunities to engage in the breakouts.

But here's the cool thing. We just passed 500 registered people. We're hoping for a thousand for the conference. We've just registered 500 people. And the really cool thing, 56 nations. I literally counted them in the database today, one by one, went through the entire spreadsheet. 56 different nations represented in those 500 people that are at the conference.

And so we're literally seeing a gospel, a digital global movement happening right here, starting right here through the Church Digital. And so if you're interested in signing up on that conference, missionary.digital, it's coming up April 2nd, right around the corner. So register on demand. If you're not able to catch it live, register anyway because you've got to register to see it on demand. And so register, please get connected and stay tuned to what's happening at the Church Digital.

And so I tell you what, I'm going to move off the commercial aspects of this and bring on the ladies for this conversation here. We're already getting some shout outs here. Pastor Susie may be a little biased in this conversation. We'll draw attention to this here in a little bit. Yo, so pumped for this conversation. Ian Kirk, who's not as biased into this, but good topic both digitally and physically. Ian's a long-term friend. So is Pastor Susie, which actually, let me introduce first off into the conversation. Amanda Souza, who knows Pastor Susie relatively well.

Amanda, you want to explain a little bit?

Yeah. Well, hello. I am Amanda. Pastor Susie is my husband, so that's why I know him decently well. Hopefully more than decently actually. We've been married for over ten years now. But yeah, we started a church, called XP Church. Well, it wasn't called that when we started it, but it is. We just changed the name of the church this past year. But yeah, so we lead together a church for gamers online called XP Church, and I am the executive lead pastor. So I very much work alongside my husband, and I basically do all the executing of the things in a very, very short way, but that is a little bit of me.

Yeah. So basically Susie's the pretty face and you get all the work done. That's pretty much how when I look at XP Church, that's what I think about. You're running the thing in the background, making Susie look good. So appreciate that. And XPchurch.com. More information over there. Glad to have you here, Amanda.

Nicole Howard, next up on my screen. Nicole's been doing a lot of work with the Church Digital for years now. Nicole, maybe you want to tell them a little bit about you and your ministry.

Yes. So hey, Nicole Howard here, Gen Z Gen Alpha Catalyst. I do a lot of stuff as Jeff said. So the primary stuff is youth and kids. So I do have Pathfinders with the support of this network. We were able to launch that, which is global. Anybody can use it anywhere. So kids fully have access to Jesus in a digital realm 24 hours a day, 7 days a week. So I'm just really enjoying being here as a digital missionary.

Awesome. Love that. It's been a lot of fun working with Nicole and exploring really digital discipleship in at a global scale centered around Gen A and Gen Z. And you know, I love my kids. My kids are that age. Not so much other people's kids. And so even learning from Nicole like how to handle and do some of that. I clearly remember the moment in my life when God said, "Jeff, you are not a youth pastor." And that was like a very audible moment for me. And so even beyond that, how are we embracing and working with these kids digitally? It's a fun part to be a part of.

And also here globally, it's been a lot of fun to see Ann Bos Sarge's ministry really expand. You know, Ann, I feel like I first met you when you were still at the church you were at for a while and growing a digital ministry that also kind of left the physical church and stood on its own. And now you're discipling people globally with a strong presence in Africa. So Ann, maybe tell them a little bit about your ministry.

Yeah, I'm Ann Bos Sarge and I have the opportunity, the privilege to lead an organization called Digital Discipleship, and we work around the globe to reignite a passion for discipleship. So we do that in a couple of different ways. We do an online women's and men's ministry that is called Becoming More. We also do daily discipleship in the online chapel, and we actually have a digital forward child sponsorship organization where we put our discipleship into action through child sponsorship in Uganda. So we operate on Facebook primarily and WhatsApp as well.

Awesome. It's been so exciting to see that organization grow, and even as we've started to the Church Digital extend globally and deal with contextualizations and things like that, it's been we've brought Ann alongside to coach some of our leadership and learn from some of the work that she's doing at a global scale.

And so as we're getting into this, I would love to draw in. It's interesting just now, Pastor D coming in, who's also a longtime friend of the Church Digital, just comes into the house. And so it was funny. I actually told Pastor D, I was like, "Probably should have had you come on this thing as well because she is so vocal and so strong as a female pastor in House of His Glory as a digital church. Been doing this a decade, almost if not more. And so you've got a lot of long-term women who are represented on this screen, but really I would suggest maybe even this just to open up the conversation.

There's a difficulty, some hesitancy. I was telling Amanda actually before this, the combo, like before we started streaming, you know, I book conferences, design the digital missionary conference. I book conferences all the time, and I am constantly, okay, like who's out there in female space who's doing something? And like men, I don't have to. This is I don't want to make this about me, but men I don't have to look hard. Women, I often find like I have to really dig in and dig through the weeds to try to find, do you know somebody? Do you know somebody? What's going on? To really start to get down where it's obviously a lot more of a it feels like it's more male-dominated ministry area.

And I would even call out, I love my YouTube subscribers. Thank you for this. No guilt implied. YouTube tells me analytics-wise that 97% of my subscribers to the Church Digital are male. 97%. Like I have to work hard, it feels like, to get 97% of men to engage and know women, but we're very open to this.

And so like I just would love to maybe start the conversation with you all. Do you feel this tension of being like in a male-dominated environment? Let me just open up. Let anybody share as they feel like. What do you feel or see when you look at being a woman in digital ministry today?

Amanda, you want to kick us off? I'll make you the guilty one up front here and let's get the others to engage in.

Yeah, sure. So I'll say issues physical ministry, online digital ministry, like they're just you don't see many women represented. And I would say it's just a problem that we have in general. And I ask myself that I have such a packed answer. So I'm so hesitant to start because I don't like once I get going like I have a hard time. I have a lot to say on this. So I don't want to like start off. But I would say yeah, just to simply start off, like I really just think that it is just an issue in your physical churches, in your in your typical like you know, brick-and-mortar ministries, you know, and it translates online. You know, yeah, so it's I'm having a hard time answering that without going off on my tangent. I want to, you know, I don't want to just go off and take over. But so you're going to save the bullets for a little bit. That's cool. I respect that. Thank you.

Nicole, what do I cut you off earlier? I apologize. What were you going to say?

No, I was going to. I was definitely thinking. I was like, okay, not all of us at the same time. When has that ever happened that three women in the room didn't have something to say at the same time? But I'm just like, let's get it. So yeah, you know, aside from I love how Amanda kicked that off because it's almost become it has become a societal expectation. We hear ministry, they're expecting the male version of it. And then for the lack of leadership representation, we don't have anyone out there doing it to say, "Okay, it's possible for me to go do it." So where, who's guiding me if I'm guiding everybody else? Who's going to feed into me if I'm feeding everybody else? So you have this place where you're like, I'm hesitant to go out there and do that. And so you can't find us because there's no one out there for us to come under to be represented.

Yeah. Ann, you would agree with that?

Absolutely, I would agree with that. And I think, you know, I never knew that being a pastor, that leading a ministry like this was something that I was able to do.

You know, I grew up in an environment where that was a man's job. And so it didn't even occur to me like when I was a young child, I didn't say, "I want to grow up and be a pastor." Um, but yet here I am doing something that I didn't even know was available to me in those in those formative times. It wasn't until, you know, much later in life that I realized, oh, God has a calling on my life and it's more than what I have served in ministry.

Um, it looks different than what I thought it could possibly be. And so I think you know from my situation I didn't even know that that was something that was available to me as a woman.

And so you know just like you said that it's um we don't have those kinds of examples to look to many of us and especially in the digital space because that is so new we have even fewer examples.

So yeah, um and uh excuse me, not not not Ann, Pastor D, uh shares here, uh feels like all of ministry is male-dominated. Uh the last in industry to accept women in general.

It's interesting. I I never actually considered that. I I male-dominated. Yes. The the last industry to to really to really accept that. Uh does that resonate across the crowd as you look at that?

The last industry to to accept women. Um, how how let's let's be personal here for a second. How's that make you feel? Like how how do you respond to to maybe that idea?

Oh, can I take it, ladies? Go ahead. So, we're going to take it biblically. And if y'all if I'm wrong, y'all tell me. But the Lord said that the first shall be last and the last shall be the first.

So, it's coming and I hope that our male counterparts are ready. Uhoh. I'm suddenly very afraid. Wow. Um, so what do we is is the problem as was was described that there was no, you know, little an uh as a child had no vision for for wanting to do something like this because it wasn't on the table. You know, I I tell the story I wanted to be a digital pastor when I was 12 years old as as an as an eighth grader.

Um 1988 89. And so like I' I've had that vision for 25 35 years of my life. Um but is is is the problem really that it just wasn't on the table?

The girls didn't know that that was an option? Like is is that the is that the source of this? Are there other things that we need to look at?

I think I would say for me that that is definitely where it started. But then what I needed was the opportunity to have some mentors in my life that kind of rewired my thinking around that area.

Um and mentors that were men because you know most pastors, most people in ministry are men. And so just in general, what I needed in order to shift my thinking were men that gave me that opportunity to step into my pastoral calling that I didn't even they recognized it in my life before I did. Um, and we need more of those men to be fostering up women and calling out the calling that is on their lives and then making space for them to live that out.

Um because without that space, without that renewing of our minds, if we've been told that we can't, that this is not available to us, then we don't even know any better.

We don't even we can't even see that that is a possibility. Yeah. Yeah. And that pathway to uh the pathway to leadership is not designed with a female in mind.

The types of supports that I would need would be different from the types of supports that my counterpart would need. Um, so just even in looking at that like how are how are you set up to uh assess leadership within this community of believers that are given the mantle of pastoral ship and then let's just add that it's digitally like we're not adding we're we're stating and maintaining that it is digitally. So there there there is not a process for that.

So I may have the world's greatest mentor, renowned book writer, but he doesn't know how to lead me digitally nor as a woman. There it's a um pastor D says here, the persecution is real.

Now, I I actually and I'm not I'm not calling Pastor D out, but I've I've seen this word persecution a couple times and and and and I'm just going to be honest right here.

The male part of me I love you, Pastor D. The male part of me is like, whoa, persecution. Like, to me, that's a that's a freaking strong word um in that.

And so, humbly, I'm asking this question. Do you all feel persecuted? Do you feel like there there's Okay. Um Amanda, I didn't even finish the question.

You're shaking your head. Yes. Amanda, talk to me a little bit. What are you What are you feeling here come when it comes to persecution?

Yeah. Um I did switch my mic because I was told by my husband that it was the wrong one. So, do I sound okay now?

You sound much better. And and thank you, Pastor Susie, for stepping in. I had no idea I had the wrong one. Um okay, good.

Anyways, um yes, I would agree with that statement wholeheartedly. Um I uh I have a similar story to an, but honestly, it's kind of flipped.

So, it's similar, but yet very different. I grew up in the Assemblies of God, which does support women in in pastoral roles and whatnot.

Um granted, every church is different. Um, and so I grew up, you know, I saw examples of amazing godly women in leadership and you know, still struggling with some persecution even in a denomination that supports them.

Um, but I was like, I can do this. And I, for me, I just wanted to be a worship pastor. I went to school for worship ministry, you know, and obviously sometimes God changes, you know, things unexpectedly.

Never thought I would be leading a church for gamers online. Um, but it wasn't until I became a pastor online that I was like, "Oh, oh, I'm a controversy." Like, people people aren't for women pastors.

People don't like that I'm a pastor. Like, I didn't know that this was a thing. Like, I didn't understand. And then I really began to struggle with it because, you know, it was just how I was raised.

And I'll be honest, like, I just like I didn't know anything different. And so I began to like secondguess myself, second guess my calling.

And and it wasn't until I studied myself and I went and I went, you know, I was like, you know what, I hear all these voices.

I hear all of these voices online, you know, whether they're nice voices, unkind voices, um, just telling me what I can and cannot do in ministry.

I'm going to go and I'm going to figure this out for myself. And so I sought out, you know, some some women that I know who are in ministry and fight for women in ministry, you know, reading books, studying scripture.

And then I I found confidence in scripture that yeah, like I I can I can be a woman in ministry, top ministry, like leadership positions like a pastor or you know, anything of the like.

Um, but I face so much persecution. And I even faced persecution like I would say like a week or so ago um because we do live streams for our church and I was just like hosting service and there was somebody in chat spamming like second Timothy 2, you know, like all the verses of women and stuff and and I was like I'm not even I'm just talking to people like I'm just here talking to people and I have people you know spamming chat.

That literally happened like two weeks ago. I've had somebody join our Discord server in the church, you know, send me a DM again with the second Timothy 2 and then like leave our server um like immediately after.

Um and I'm like, who are you? Like why? Like what are you trying to accomplish with that? And I had never faced all of this to the to the extent that I have as I have being online.

And because you're just you're you're open and available to the entire internet, right? where there's so many opinions. There's so many people with good bad intentions, you know, who can keyboard warrior and say whatever they want to you and feel like they have no um I guess like uh repercussions to it or whatever. Um granted, it also happened to me in in-person ministry before I even was remotely close to doing online ministry. Um, but I could go on again.

I could go on about it, but I would say yeah, like there's definitely a lot of that floating around and especially online, it is so easy for somebody to just like, you know, and hit send and you know, yeah, it's really frustrating.

And Nicole, would you would you agree with that? That the keyboard warriors, so to speak, um, it's maybe escalated a little bit higher in in digital than than in physical.

And go ahead. I would say for sure it has in my experience. Um the interesting thing for me is that I definitely started out in person before moving to digital ministry and pastoring and things like that.

And you know from the time I began moving into my calling and stepping into my calling, I noticed that there were certain people that would speak differently to me than they would to my male counterparts.

Um, and and when we move on to digital, yes, there are those people that will just type out a comment, just not even knowing me, not even listening to anything that I'm saying, but just type out that comment.

But the beautiful thing is that I can delete that comment and I can block that person. But in person, I cannot do that. And so for me the digital space is a little bit easier because um because there you can create more boundaries around it but when you're in person you you just sometimes don't have anywhere else to go right and so yes I have definitely felt that um but I have felt like it's easier it's more frequent I would say in the digital space but it's easier to create some boundaries around the people that really want to engage that conversation, but most of them don't. Um, to your point, most of them do not. They just want to prove something and then leave. So, there's no kind of correspondence or discussion that goes on with that.

But for sure, I have found that to be true. Nicole, you feeling that, too? Yeah, I I feel that. You know, I I'm listening and when you said persecution, you know, I think about all the missionaries that I saw come through in person in church and they would talk about persecution and it's its purpose is to stamp out a movement. And so if God, we know God, not even if, but we know that God is using us and to embark upon this very different missionary field, then the persecution has to come some way.

Because if I feel safe and feel brave in this space to ask my questions about Jesus, then there has to uprise a keyboard warrior to try to stamp out what's happening.

How else would you do war on the internet? And so warfare, just the same, which falls same in persecution. If I'm being persecuted, it's time for warfare.

It's preparation, letting me know that, hey, whatever message God has that's coming through me. It's going where it's supposed to go and it's doing what it's supposed to do because here comes persecution.

Wow. Well, I mean, you're you're painting a graphic picture. Uh you Pastor D. uh the more visible on you're more visible online and the hater spammers and like also have easier access to you, you know, the keyboard warrior that drop the bomb and run.

You know, I I hear that I'm like coward. Like if you're going to drop a bomb, at least stick around for the fight. Um stand up to that, but I'm a man, so forgive me for that.

Um, but let let me ask in in in in all seriousness digitally and it's like all of you organizationally and you probably have the best ecosystem around you, but you know, Nicole, I know the church digital's played a big part in your ecosystem.

Um, Amanda, like you've got a a team around you with with XP Church, but like in those moments when when you're in the middle of this persecution, when the middle of this attack, where do you go?

How do you withstand this? Who who who do you talk to? How do you o overcome that situation? Pastor D, I would even love to know your take on that.

So, any of you ladies, how do you withstand some of this persecution, some of these attacks? I think for me, I have an amazing team around me and what I often find is that when I'm online, before I even have the chance to respond to it, they are responding for me and I just find so much comfort in that. But then I also have sought out other women in ministry that I can go to to say, "Hey, is it just me? Am I overreacting to this situation?" You know, I don't want to be considered that emotional woman that is taking things too seriously. Um, you know, I want to make sure that I am levelheaded, that I'm thinking clearly. And so to be able to have some other women in ministry to go to for support has been absolutely a game changer. And then to have other people around me that are speaking the truth to the lies even on my behalf, even before I can get to the comments, absolutely helps to protect my soul and helps to protect my mind from the things that I'm reading.

Yes. Any other thoughts on that? My aspects work a little differently. So, um, I picked this up from an in-person gathering. When someone was getting ready to speak at this IRL gathering, the individual would go to the prayer chapel, and a group of people would be in there praying for that person. And then they would go speak. And when they went to speak, there's always someone in that same prayer chapel praying over them as they speak. And then when they come back, there's someone to pray them down. Um, so whenever I have to do any type of ministry, there is a team of people praying over those dates before they even get here. Then there's a team that prays over me. There's a team that's praying when it's happening. And then there's a team praying me down. And even in the midst of that, the first and foremost is that this is a mantle. We can't forget that. And with every mantle comes a host of heavenly angels. They've got it covered. Y'all can do what you like. You're not gonna get to me unless you come through the Father and I don't think you're gonna make it, you know. So, I'm just like, okay. And then I do have a spiritual mother. I do. And I'm just like, hey, just like Ann said, I'm like, did I miss it or did they come for me? Like, you know, in kids terms, you know, I'm in youth ministry. I'm like, bet. So, we level up. We fast. We pray some more. And we come again. They're like, "Okay, let's try this again."

Anything to add to that, Amanda? Yeah. Um, for me, it's been huge to have my husband being so vocally and like just obviously supportive of me being a pastor. Um, our team is um all for it as well. Um, our church, you know, majority of the people in our church are and there was actually um a few weeks ago I preached um on the topic of uh a woman's role in marriage um funny enough um considering this conversation today. It was, you know, uh, it was good. But our team was literally prepared, um, just in case while Amanda is preaching on this topic, and I don't preach often. It's very, very rare. But, you know, while Amanda's preaching, if there's anybody who comes in the chat, you know, spamming the usual like, you know, Second Timothy, we are going to be ready to support her, have her back, um, and, you know, correct that in the chat. And they they were ready. They were ready. Um, surprisingly, no one actually said anything. Um, which I'm very thankful for. But yeah, knowing I have a team that has my back. Um, I have an incredible mentor who is a pastor. Um, she has been huge, um, just a huge encouragement, um, in my life. Um, I have friends who are also in ministry. Like I have a friend who's literally a missionary um, on her way to the mission field as we speak. Um, and so just surrounding myself with women and having a team that has my back, my husband, it just all of that has been huge for me.

Yeah. I'm I'm curious and we're I'm going to get to Ukulele's comment here in a second, but but before I do that, does your support team need to understand digital? Like, you know, Nicole, you're talking about your spiritual mother uh speaking this thing and you you've got a a group of ladies that you work with do they understand digital or is it just they approve of digital in that you're doing ministry like are they digital savvy? I'm just wondering kind of the strength of that because you're really I mean to be honest you're kind of bucking the system in two different areas one you're women and the second you're doing it in a in a non-physical environment. And so how much does that come into play as you're looking for a support system?

Nicole, you want to go first? Sure. You see, right? I'm like, don't do it. Okay. So, um, yeah. So, no. I would say no because in the team there's mixed people. There are people who fully know what this means, what it looks like, and are like proactively thinking what's going to come against me. There are people that have no understanding of what I'm doing. They just know that God has blessed me to do it and this is how they can support me. And then you have those people that know just enough to be dangerous. So the the team is very very mixed and I feel like we don't always know what the pastor is going to get up and preach on, but we know it's going to be a message from God. That's where my team rests.

And does that resonate with you? For sure. And I think, you know, one of the things that I wanted to do as I was stepping into this digital space was to invite other women to come along with me. And, you know, I let them know early on. I'm like, I don't really know exactly what this is going to look like, but let's do it together. And so, there were three women that started this organization from um from the ground up. And so definitely they understood everything about all of the nuances of being digital and they have been involved you know very very intricately with that. Um but also just for me other women in ministry that just look out for my heart. Um you know there's no digital component to that. Um it's just looking out for me and my heart and how I'm doing spiritually. And so I think both is important. I don't you have to have a digital understanding in order to understand what it's like to be a woman that works in a very male-dominated space. And so and so I think it's both for me.

Yeah. Ukulele says here and and I'm curious uh y'all's take on this. Uh another layer things we offer for women at church are about marriage, parenting, and prayer. Not as often about leadership, deep Bible study, uh, etc. Um, would would you all agree to this or care to share an opinion on that?

Uh, Amanda, you're shaking your head yes pretty strongly. Why don't you kick it off? Yeah. Yeah. No, I would definitely agree. Um, I think just churches in general, um, yeah, there just needs to be more intentionality to teach and train women in ministry. But I think it also starts with like does that church support it? Because I think we all know like there are just a lot of people a lot of churches out there that just genuinely don't believe that it's right. So I think that that is of course the first hurdle. Um but then when you do find a church that does support it, how intentional are they to empower, encourage, teach, train those women, you know, not just to lead the children's ministry, you know, but like or a woman's ministry, which of course all of that is so good and like I mean I I lead our women's ministry in our church. Um but you know taking that that step further you know of you know yes you can be a pastor not just to children and other women like you can lead you can be a spiritual figure in the church and in your ministry in more ways that you know you may think or or believe or have been told. And yeah, I would definitely agree that there hasn't been enough of that available to women in churches um and just in general.

I know we did I did a Bible study cuz I was like, you know what, I I want to take women along in this journey. And so we actually did a Bible study on the topic um in our church. You know, we do small groups in our church and we did one semester was on um a book that you know is on the topic and we just we just dove deep into the topic together and we talked about it and I think it really helped and encouraged a lot of women in the church going through that that book and that that Bible study in that way. And I think yeah, we just need more of that. And what I heard often was, wow, like I've been so confused on this topic. I felt led to ministry and led to leadership but I was just always so confused. I always just never understood could I actually do it and you know it really helped and encouraged them and you know even some of them after that are now in like you know leading small groups and beginning to step into leadership positions and so it just doesn't even have to be big like you know start at least with something small like a place for them to learn and to grow and to feel empowered and it can grow from there and multiply from there but yeah I would I would definitely agree that there needs to be more of that.

Does that resonate an absolutely and I also think that you know it's important like I was sharing with my own story that you have some men that are willing to lift you up that are willing to let you go. But then as a woman who is moving in those spaces, I need to be bringing other women along with me as well and helping to draw that those gifts out of them and give them a place where they can discover their calling as well. And sometimes I think that as women, we can get very insecure about the places that we hold and the positions that we hold and we think I've got to hold on to it because if I do anything, it may be taken from me. Um and instead I think we need to have um more of a posture of open hands and really trust that God is inviting us to bring other people along on the journey. That is that process of discipleship. And so as women we need to be intentionally sewing into other women and bringing them along as well when we do enter those spaces.

Yeah. Uh Nicole, I've heard you talk about some of that before open-handed. I'm like, "Yes, yes." Go ahead. Share with me. Even, you know, at this stage of maturation. Yes. You know, I have a woman in front of me who I'm helping push forward. I have one behind me that I'm paving the way and two to walk alongside me, my Aaron and my her. Um and I teach that to kids, too, because that's important. Like there there is something to be said about how all the apostles had this impartation moment and if we're not doing that then we know it doesn't die but there's a reason why you're accumulating this wisdom and this understanding this is a reason why you have this mantle and it it is built for relationship you know like it is God's gift to us that we would give it the overflow is meant to be given. You can't give if you're empty. So, definitely be full. But you should be doing that like that. That never stops. And I challenge them to do it at all ages and all stages of maturation. Like you should have that, you know, because that's how you achieve spiritual growth. That's how we have these people. We can say, "Was that just me or did I I missed that?" You know, was there a different revelation that time when I said that than before? You know, there's people that can say that and check that. And then there's that that growth that happens for them. And then you get that exponential growth, you know, in discipleship, which I love like what Ann was talking about because you were never meant to do this alone. It may have been a a conversation between you and God, but once it's downloaded, it becomes a conference.

Interesting. I I'm I'm going to do something. And and to be honest, I didn't when thinking through this interview, this thought didn't really even occur to me until literally in this conversation.

And so this may be perceived as rude. This may be perceived as not a good thing. Uh, don't you love when people like precede the comment by saying stuff like this?

Like here with the stream, especially with the live, because if this tanks, we will totally edit this out and this will not make on demand. And so if you're watching this live, you get the unfiltered version. Know that in advance. But through the church digital, and I'm very vocal on my own story. And this is where it's danger because I'm paralleling my story to you all. And I don't mean that in any way. That is not what I'm trying to do.

For 25 years, I banged my head against the wall because I was trying to help physical churches understand the power of digital. And like, even freaking through COVID, they couldn't figure it out. And so we pivoted. We walked away from the church mindset and instead started adopting this idea of the digital missionary, which is now the digital missionary conference and everything else. And moving away from the church, and you know, moving from—it's interesting. I told a donor last night I was like, yeah, we were doing B2B, business to business, working straight with churches. But by going to digital missionary, we pivoted and we went to a B to C, a business to consumer model, where now we're working straight with individuals instead of trying to go through churches. And it's been it's been like a clean, clear sailing. Blue skies, you know, blue ocean, whatever the analogy is that says it's been a sprint and it's been a joy. Like it's been that way. And so I'm thinking about this, bear with me. And I started thinking back historically. Actually, you know, my mother was very active growing up in women's missionary something, whatever, I don't know. But like for her, she spent a lot of time talking about missionaries.

Uh, and so I went on Google and I Googled Christian women missionaries to pull up some of these names. Um, you know, Elizabeth Elliott, of course, in the 1900s, and she died in the 2000s, books about her. Lottie Moon as a Southern Baptist—like, I mean, this woman in the 1800s and early 1900s was defining missionary work. Is there opportunities missionally with more towards this? Is that moving away from a male-dominated church environment? Is it a good thing to lean away and work straight with the individuals? Is that a bad thing? I'm just looking at maybe missional is easier, but that may not make it better.

And so what's your take on that? I'm open to whoever would go first on this. But would being more of a missionary instead of a church, is that the right play for women in 2025?

I think that it is traditionally more accepted because women are helpers. They're servers. They're servants. They are coming alongside and helping. Um, and really, we often fail to see the intersection between a missionary and a pastor. Um, I don't see that those two things are that different. Um, because a pastor should also be someone that serves, that loves, that shows compassion, that works with groups of people. Like, all of that. But for some reason, there is a stigma where the word pastor is used in conjunction with women. So yes, I think that there are not very many people that would say women should not be missionaries. Absolutely, they should be missionaries, but they can't be a pastor. And so I think that if we stop getting hung up on terminology and become more concerned with where God is moving women individually in their lives, I think it's important for us to follow the calling wherever it leads. You could call me a missionary. You could call me a pastor. You could call me a nonprofit leader. I don't care what you call me. I just know that I am called to take the gospel to people and to reignite a passion for discipleship.

And I think we get so interested in labeling people and categorizing people to appease the different boxes that we put people in that we end up limiting. Like, in my case, we end up limiting what people, what we say people can do. I was raised in a missionary household. So we lived in Nigeria when I was young. I knew that I could become a missionary if I wanted to become a missionary. I couldn't be a pastor, but I could be a missionary. And those two things are very much in my mind very similar. Um, pastors should be missionaries, missionaries should be pastoral. Um, but we just put those specific labels and then categorize people where it makes us comfortable.

Yeah. Um, Amanda, as you're hearing that, what are you thinking on maybe some of these labels?

Yeah, I mean, I think labels—I think Ann really just nailed it, honestly. I think labels really are the issue, you know? It's so strange. Like, women can be called directors, but not pastors, but they're doing the same exact thing. What changes is the title. Um, and so yeah, I resonate with all of what Ann said, and I just want to echo that. I really think the title is really the issue. I don't think it should be one or the other. Um, you know, at the end of the day, I think people are going to have an issue with titles just period, whether no matter what they believe, what their thoughts are, whatever. Um, I think you just have to stay true to what God is calling you to do and be confident in that and just move forward with whatever that is, whether it is a pastor or a missionary, you know.

Um, and so yeah, you know, I could see where the US, the North American church, um, may have, you know, has pivoted more towards a male-dominated version of leadership as with the title of pastor. And um, I'm loosely saying the word corrupted. I don't mean—but I think the idea shifted away from more of the pastor being more of a high-capacity leader as opposed to a shepherd. Um, even a teacher. Like, they actually—I remember um, you, I tell this story occasionally. I was on a church staff, uh, and we were like, you know, maybe 30 pastors, and um, it was a large church. And every pastor that was on staff with this church, if they had taken the APEST, uh, they would have been like an 80 to 90 percent apostolic. And so it was like a very driven, very type A, uh, very extreme staff environment. And it was funny like I was actually probably the most shepherd-teacher on staff among everybody else because it was all strong apostolics, which was almost a joke because if you know me, like there ain't no shepherd in me in that. And so um, like, working in that strong environment, really, it's you're starting to miss like the other parts of APEST. And working in that male-dominated, you're really missing some of the complimentary parts of how a woman can help to complete the process.

So Ukulele says here, let me draw attention to this. Um, we have to be going and doing what God calls us to do. We can adjust the label, but be careful not to adjust the mission to be more palatable to humans, you know? And so it's not—I think that's a good call. You're not—we don't want to lose sight of the mission of what we're called to.

Yeah. Um, and let me ask you, as we're—because you're reaching globally, you know, I'm guessing Amanda's reaching globally as well, but oftentimes people hide behind the usernames and it's harder to really figure out who's who. But Ann, like, you know who you're reaching. You're building relationships with predominantly a lot of people in Africa and other nations. Do other nations globally, do they struggle with women pastor, with women leader, as strongly as you see in North America? Is it globally as much of an issue as maybe you're feeling here domestically?

The answer is no. They do not. And that is one of the things that brings me great joy and satisfaction with the ministry with which I get to work. I hardly hear any of those comments. I hardly get any of those comments from people that are engaging globally. Um, many of my people are from Africa, from Pakistan, um, different places, and they just—it's not an issue. Um, it's you are called and you are equipped and you are prepared and gifted to teach the word of God, and I am going to learn. And there's an attitude that I think is often missing here in the US that they realize that they can learn anytime, anywhere, from anyone. And there is a humility there. And one of the things that I have loved is to be able to see—remember I said that some of them will comment in the comments before I even get there. Um, and it's usually my international people that are commenting and that are correcting the mistruth and the hurtful statements that are made um on my behalf.

And so I would say definitely in my experience um it is a United States, Western-centered um mindset that that I do not see in much of the global parts that I engage with.

Amanda, have you had an experience globally uh that that would you just would you agree with what Ann said there? Like, what has your experience been globally on Twitch and Discord?

Yeah, majority of the people we do reach are in the United States, but we do reach people all over the world—Australia, uh, United Kingdom, you know, Europe and whatnot. Um, and to my knowledge, you know, all the people who are outside of the US, they don't seem to mind. If anything, actually, I know one of the Australian uh women that I know in our church, you know, she's always like hungry for more women representation in ministry leadership. And, you know, she always tells me, "You should preach more," you know, cuz she's just she's hungry to see more women in that kind of role and position leading in such a way spiritually. Um, so yeah, I would have to agree um with that for sure.

No, I love that. That was—I didn't know that for a fact, but that that doesn't surprise me that that global is more supportive of that. Um, and it's—I forget, and I remember sending this to you. I think it was um Rick Warren. Rick Warren was doing some research uh and he did a YouTube video on Lisbon um and he was talking about um global movements. And he had done research, or his research team did research, on um why global movements fail. And what he had found is that the majority of global movements that have failed over the past x number of years, couple centuries, uh, were dominated by male-centric, white male-centric leadership. Was I think the stat that he came up with. And that it was working in international contextualization and working women into leadership. Both of those things contributed to a more of a global impact or extending impact beyond um to create a movement level. And so like, I was funny—I remember forwarding that actually. It was I forwarded that to Angela Craig first and then sent it to Ann. And Angela was one of the pioneers in this space too, doing digital church for a decade or so before she shifted over to education. Uh, what was her church? Her church was um—man, shoot—uh, I am Pursue Church Life. That was her church on Facebook for years. Um, so I mean, let me ask—um, well, that's the reason I said, oh, that's one of the reasons why. And I'm not patting myself on the back, but the Church Digital um, Barbara Carnero, to be honest, Barbara Carnero tells me I'm wrong on a regular basis, and she's never wrong when she corrects me. And so like, I do not mind that. And uh, Stacy's on our senior leadership as well with um as our chaplain. And we are—I am always looking for people who don't look like me and think like me on leadership.

Let me ask this question.

How I mean I'm going to ask two questions back to back. First, how do we solve this at the big level? Do we solve this at the big level?

And and then maybe a follow-up question would be how do we solve this like individual? What's what's one or two steps we can do today to start to move in in that direction?

And and so um Ann, you want to kick us off? Yeah, I would just say individually I think all of us need to develop a sense of humility and curiosity. That those are two things that I find often unfortunately are lacking within the church structure. Um, and especially, you know, when you get onto a digital space, um, people feel very empowered, um, to just say what they know and to be very certain about it and put their put their comment on there and then leave or whatever. Um, and what I would encourage people to do is to develop a sense of humility to say, "I can learn something from anybody. So, let me hear what this person has to say." Um, even if it makes me uncomfortable, even if it's from a different perspective. You know, so many times we want to get in an echo chamber with people that think the same way that we think and approach life the same way that we approach it so that we can hear things that confirm our own biases and our own thoughts. Um, but when you hear a woman speaking, when you hear somebody of color speaking, when you hear somebody that's in a different station of life with different experiences speaking, you're going to be able to hear things that may make you uncomfortable for a while and challenge your thinking, but with some humility and with some curiosity. Um I think that we are going to allow more and different voices to speak to us in a way that we will really receive it.

So I think that that is you know humility and curiosity on an individual level. Um, but I also think that what would that look like on a systems level with an on an organizational level that those are things that we prioritize within our churches, within our ministries, within our constructs, within our algorithms. Um, even that we would hear things that we don't always agree with. Um, yeah. But we have this sense of curiosity to say, "God, what might you be teaching me through these people that may not be exactly like me?" Yeah.

It takes humility to to not know the answer. It takes humility to be open-handed like that. Um, and so I I can see where a lot of pastors, uh, a lot of men might have problems with that. I mean that that's been something to be honest that's been I've learned that the hard way. Let's just say it that way. That would be my story.

So I I agree with you there on that. An um Amanda as as we're hearing this like what's um big picture long term how how do we how do we put a dent in this?

Yeah, definitely echo the humility. I think that's like the number one reason, you know, that people who are, you know, just against women, you know, they they lack the ability to have a conversation to hear the other side. Um, and so I think it starts with humility, but then I think like being intentional to create opportunities for women um to be celebrated, empowered, um, encouraged, uh, trained up, um, you know, not just like, you know, adding on a woman to like, you know, a list of conference speakers just to have like your your woman, you know, represented like, you know, the token female Yes. Yes. The token female, you know, don't do that. Um because while, you know, sure to a degree we appreciate the thought, um it's not necessarily helpful when you do that.

Um you know, but like, you know, seek out women who are truly doing an incredible job in these spaces. Celebrate them. Invite them to more opportunities so that they can be seen by other people, men and women included. And I think by by inviting more women into the space, you know, um like these these um podcasts are great, you know, but what I would love to see is women on podcasts that aren't about women in ministry, you know, like what what are you doing as a woman in the space? Like why like why like like what are you like what are you up to like you know what is God doing in and through your ministry, you know? Um to see more of that so that it's not just like yes women can do it but like what actually are you doing you know why can women do it let's see let's see the proof in the pudding like let's see what God is doing in and through what he has called you to um and so I would love to see that you know of course women supporting women but I also think it is so incredibly important for men to be supporting women in these roles as well because we can women have each other's backs you know but I feel like we'll constantly be fighting against the grain if men are also being intentional to invite us into those same leadership spaces, especially if it's so male-dominated. Um, they have to make room for us because I don't know about you, like I'm not interested in fighting my way in.

Um, I'm not that type of person. I'm not trying to like insert myself um when I'm not wanted. Um, you know so I think men creating that space for women to you know be celebrated, encouraged, trained up you know to have that opportunity is is so important.

So yeah. Yeah. I mean I I'll give testimony to this um you know the church digital some of the shorts that we produce uh the the short and Stacy's one of our regular producers. The shorts that she produces uh typically rank in our top uh like when she does it that they they perform uh very well which is interesting because you know my subscribers are 97% male uh but they're they're resonating with with uh some of the ideologies what she's talking about.

I'd say the same thing and we've done some some clips uh with you historically uh through podcasts and other things that we've done and and an does does well with that. Um, I I would, you know, I've I've often said, you know, um I I don't know that I'm the the future of the church digital. A white bald man with a beard, I don't think is really going to be uh the leader of an organization, a global movement organization. I I just I I think it's somebody else is going to going to pick the reigns up and and run with this. Uh but as as much as we can can empower uh as as much as we can enable women as much as we can enable different cultures um and and empower them to do ministry encourage them to like that's I I I I try at a personal level I try to give my platform up on a regular basis and and uh you know Nicole has has benefited from that and historically I hope would say she's benefited from that actually that was it was interesting I was talking about Angela Craig earlier um you Angela, I hope it's okay that I tell the story, but um I I sent her I sent her that that story I was talking about, Rick Warren, and um I I said to her, you know, thank you for for pioneering in this space and doing this work to help create a movement. And um and she repli and she replied back uh and I ap um Angela I apologize if I shouldn't have said this but she said something to the extent of thank you for giving me the year platform and the opportunity to be heard by um an audience that that doesn't listen. Um, and that's that's been a sad reality for me is like there are there are pastor friends in in my ecosystem that are like, why why are you highlighting women pastors? That's not biblical. Like I've gotten I've gotten hate email off off some of this stuff. It's interesting this I've had a lot of engagement in this conversation and chat actually has been really positive but I was half expecting some negative to come around because that that does happen on occasion you know even even in our ecosystems and so um you know I want to thank you all for for being being the pioneers for leading into this space um you know we we say here at the church digital pioneers get shot settlers get rich and and so you guys are are are paving the way for some other missionaries and some other planters and other women to to benefit from this uh in in the future. But but let me ask this question.

Today in 2025, it's March, right? It is March, right? March 15th, 17th, somewhere around there. Okay, we're good. Uh I know what month we're in. It's it's a step in the right direction. It in by 2026, in the next nine months, 8 months, um we want to move the bucket forward. We want to take a step in the right direction. What what what do what do we need to do? Ho how do we um elevate this so it's not a problem? What can we do in the next year uh to to help bring about a solution or a step in the solution in the right space?

What do y'all think? I would love to see each ministry leader, male or female, um find someone and appreciate the greatness and the God-given talent within them and then replace themselves. You know, I hope that I will in the next year and a half um continue finding other women um continue finding people who are called into different areas of ministry. And Jeff, just like you were saying, um, giving up the platform and allowing them to be able to use their gifts and talents, um, in a way that they may not have even thought possible or nobody ever gave them that opportunity.

And so whether it's um, whether it's a digital platform, whether it's a pulpit, whether it's a Sunday school class, whether it's a, you know, a small group, whatever that is, um, find a woman. Appreciate the greatness and the gifts within her and then give up a little bit of your power so that she can step into the greatness that God created her for.

Wow. Well said. Apprenticing, you know, multiplying your yourselves into others, men and women. Um, beautiful. Uh, Amanda, you want to go next? Simple steps.

Yeah. Yeah. Just I mean, echo echo that. Um, you know, I think I should never let Ann go first because like she's she's so eloquent. It's like, okay, what she said. Yeah. But for real, what she said. Um, but yeah, just to back that up, like even just in in the circles that I'm in, you know, I see people coming together and, you know, they're creating like leadership teams and, you know, there's conferences and there's podcasts and, you know, um, all I keep thinking is there's so many capable women that I just don't see being invited or even considered for any of this, you know.

Um, and that just uh it just makes me sad. Um, you know, to see that. And I don't think it's necessarily intentional. I just think that, you know, it's just it's just become so natural. Um, and just what happens. I don't even It's It's just so Yeah. Like I don't even know how to explain why, you know, but yeah, just seeing that makes me really sad.

And just I I would love to see more women being invited into these teams into these roles like into these spaces again like you know echoing what Ann said you know just like celebrating them in the God's gifts that you know he has given them and their greatness and sharing some of that power that you know ability that leadership that opportunity with just you know men and women I think is just important um if we want to see any of this change.

Yeah, that's good. Uh Nicole, I you know I was listening and I was like, "Okay, what do you say?" Cuz yeah, I feel like echo echo definitely and like that was every item I had rolled in my head for this moment. Um but what I would like to see is I've often been told that I had to become the mentor that I was seeking because there wasn't one available.

Um, so what I would like to see is more opportunities for ministers in general. Uh, I can have a him and a her or him him. It to me it's it's who God sends to me and I can't control that. And if I'm trying to control that, then it's not who God is sending cuz I'm never in control.

And so to to have the ability to feed into a pool of people, whether it's like she said, apprenticeships, internships, come alongside ministry, just spotlighting you in my ministry.

Not that you have to be doing what I'm doing, but the fact that you're doing it to highlight that in my ministry. It's going to take many parts.

And we know that because the body is made up of many members and we were to come together. So that meant that at some point I'mma be with somebody who may be IRL, who may be fidget, and there's something that they're doing that's going to help me propel them and me.

And that's why we're supposed to connect. There's a click that happens. So, I would love to see opportunities to create a global knowledge bank of people that we could say, "Hey, we're getting ready to do this. Put your applications in for digital just like they do for in person. You know, they here's everything that we can teach on. What do you want to teach?" Yeah, I I love that.

And I mean, I'd love to say if if you're a a woman, uh if you're you're in this digital ministry space and and you're looking for that ecosystem, you're looking for that that friendly environment, um you got it here. Uh come hang out with us over at the Church Digital and um you know, let's uh let's get um let's get something uh going.

I'm half I'm half tempted to tell uh Nicole to abandon Gen A and Gen Z and and help me start uh the church digital uh women's ministry.

I I have no idea what I'm talking about, but um you know I I mean that's there there's there's there's two sides of the coin where yeah, Gen A Gen Z needs to figure this out, but the church digital you know and and I wasn't planning Nicole I wasn't planning on saying that.

That's literally in this in this moment is um there needs to be um yeah, there needs to be a stronger voice and and listen, it doesn't need to be me. Um I mean this is truly a space where we need to start to platform um others in the space to to represent well and um you know it it needs to be a woman to uh to encourage uh and to empower women in this space.

And so if you're if you're looking for that encouragement, come hang out with us. Nicole, we're going to have to offline this conversation. And uh absolutely.

It's it's usually our conversations are fun. We'll have to see what conversation is always great. And let me just add that my number one thing, my life verse and it has never changed. The Lord has not given me another verse since he gave me this one is for such a time as this. My person in the Bible is Esther.

I believe they were all created for something and there's a specific time that that's supposed to be accessed. So if this is that time and you feel like God is nudging you that you're, you know, like he's clearing the buffet table so that you can come with your dessert to the table, then this is what you need to do. Like find your people or find people and just get in because they'll help you find your people, you know, the church, find your people, find your family.

I I love that. I love that. Very very good. Hey, as as we're wrapping up here, uh went a little long, but I thank you. Thank you uh for the extra time. Uh but just any any closing thoughts? Uh Amanda, you want to go first? Oh gosh. Um I'm not prepared.

Um no, I you know, just want to any any women listening. Um God has uh created you with purpose. Um he has a plan for your life. If you have gifts and whatever those gifts are, he has, you know, already prepared. You know, my one of my favorite verses is Ephesians 2:10.

You know, for we are Christ, you know, for we are God's uh masterpiece created in him to do good works which he prepared in advance for us to do. Like you, God has prepared you to do great, incredible works. Amen. Um and whatever that may be, figure it out if you haven't already. and you know find a way to step into that. you know, if you need to seek out, you know, mentors and other women to come alongside you, well, just a period, you should have that in in general.

But, you know, however you need to to step into that, step into that. Be confident that, you know, women can be in ministry. Women can be in leadership positions. Um, you know, I know there are a lot of voices out there, but the biggest voice that you need to listen to is God. and what he is calling you to do. That is what you need to listen to um and be obedient to, not what other voices will try and tell you.

So, be encouraged with that. Well, I tell you what, if that's you talking unprepared, I'd hate to see your sermons when you actually have some time to prep. Uh that that was pretty good right there, Amanda. Thank you for that. Um yeah, Nicole, you want to go next? Yes. Yes. So, I feel like Amanda spoke to your future, so I'm going to speak to your present.

If you're feeling the press, if you know that this calling is everywhere you go, you get on platforms and people are like, "Hey, can you help me understand? I have questions about faith. I need to talk to you about this. God is calling me to do this." Then that is where you operate.

We are all given a mission field and we're all given a person, a person of peace that we're to interact with. Step out on faith and start interacting because God says all we have to do is open our mouth and he will speak. All you have to do is obey and he will command. You make a plan, he'll order the steps. Just take the first step. And I know that God is there with you.

And we're all here. This video will be accessible and you can come back and get this knowledge. So just do it. Just do it. like hope Nike doesn't come for me, but just do. Awesome. And and and Nike, if you are interested, her email address is Nicole Nic.

No, I'm kidding. Uh yeah, the Church Digital is not representable for any of the opinions shared. No, I'm kidding. All right. Uh Ann, uh as we're wrapping up here, closing thoughts?

So So Amanda spoke to the future and Nicole spoke to the present. I'll speak to the past. Um women, I want you to know that you are enough. The the voices that told you in your past that you are not enough, um they didn't see who you are and you are enough.

You are enough to do this work that God has called you to. You have enough to do everything that he is calling you toward. And and you know enough. you. It's not that you missed out on an opportunity to learn and now you don't have an opportunity. Women, you are enough and you have enough and you know enough.

And I just pray that you will rediscover the potential that is within you and and you walk in that fully. Yes. Awesome. Wow. That that was that was powerful right there.

Uh, you know, normally when I ask that question, people are like, "No, I'm good." But y'all y'all y'all brought the hammer right right there at the end. Um, and so I I want you to know, uh, you know, ladies, I I know your your ministry well. Uh, and and I have the utmost respect for each of you and and and what you're doing.

Uh, we've had Pastor G and uh, ukulele hanging, excuse me, Pastor D and ukulele hanging out with us in chat as well. And uh, and you you both as well.

I know the ministry. I see the fruit of who you are digitally. And uh I want to thank all of you uh for the work that that you are doing in in your respective ministries.

And so um as we're moving forward to church digital, I am uh I'm excited uh to uh to do more and to platform more ladies and and to be able to to allow um more of them to share.

I I would say uh that with us, you always have a place to be seen uh and and to be recognized for that. And so if you're struggling, connect with us and let you get connected to to some some people that can help you um work through that.

Come alongside you. I'm told that's the right thing to say now. Come alongside you and to work through that. I'm I'm trying to work on my language a little bit uh on that.

So appreciate that. It's a kindler gentler Jeff uh this these days in 25. So hey but but we're going to land a plane uh for for Amanda for for Nicole.

Um this is uh this is Jeff. Oh Ann. I forgot Ann. I forgot all about Ann. For Ann. This is Jeff uh with the Church Digital.

Thanks for jumping on this podcast. Uh sign up for the conference and we'll see you next time on the show. You all have a good one.