EP006: Jason Morris & Discipleship Pathways for Church Online

Well, welcome in to really kind of a special episode of From Text as Testimony. I'm Andy, I'm going to be one of your hosts today, and we are joined by not one but two very special people. Megan and John are joining me, both on the show today. And you can see from the studio I'm in here at Bay Hope, uh, this is Studio B here at Bay Hope Church in Tampa, Florida, the church that I'm the digital pastor for. And uh, we Christmas has taken over. Uh, and if you're watching this, you can see that there's this amazing tree with all of the like ornaments there. It's kind of, you know, it's bouqueted out and there's a whole lot of stuff. The theme here is "All is Calm and All is Bright," and it's kind of this like throwback to the 1950s era. And so there's like a fireplace and, you know, the things hang on that's very 1950s, very colorful. But the whole idea is that it's the holidays and that's what we're here to do. We're here to celebrate the holidays. We're here to celebrate Thanksgiving, which we just celebrated, and now Christmas is looming large. And the thing that happens during the holiday season is that we as pastors and we as church leaders and you as spiritual responders for Glue, you start to see an uptick in incidences of depression and anxiety and loneliness. And you know, feelings of not being enough and all of those things compounded because of and really on top of the holidays. And so Megan and John and I are going to have a real frank and real candid conversation. This is going to be a different episode than usual. Typically we have, you know, three distinct portions plus kind of some things going on. There's a through line here that I want you to pay attention to. This also just a little bit of a warning: this is a little bit of a longer episode. I promise you it's good. We talk all things like Saturday morning cartoons. Uh, we talk about Power Rangers. We talk the holidays. But we also really get some words of wisdom from two trained counseling professionals, two people that care about the explorers that are coming in on the Glue platform and most importantly, they care about you and how you are able to help them. So like I said, stay tuned to this episode all throughout. It might be a little long. If you need to break it into go for it, you have my permission to hit pause there. You go, you now have my permission. Uh, this show, From Text as Testimony, is put on in conjunction with Glue and the Church Digital, formerly the Digital Church Network, now the Church Digital. And it's our kind of esteemed pleasure to be able to help you in all of these things.

Now, one of the things that I need to point out before we get going is that I want to hear from you. We've done a number of episodes where it's just kind of been like, "Hey, we're running and gunning and we're going to go through the episode," but now I actually want to hear from you. Not that I didn't before, but I want to open up comment sections and I want to open up our my email address and all of my socials, which are going to be located in the show notes. Uh, if you are listening on podcast, if you are watching this on YouTube or on Glue.us or anything, any other place that you're watching this, it's going to be located in the description of this below. I'd love to hear from you on either those socials or via an email address, um, just to hear how things are working, what questions we can answer, and honestly some uh ideas for future episodes. We want to be able to speak directly to what you're experiencing on the front lines of being responders, but also really the things that are shown to be effective and the things that uh you're having questions about, not only within Glue but also in general digital ministry, in texting, and in all of the things happening around that. So I've talked enough. Let's get into a really, really fun episode here on From Text as Testimony.

Well, if you are watching this on YouTube or on Glue.us or any one of our video platforms, you see that it's not just me and somebody, but I am actually joined by what I just called off camera, "The Avengers." I like to think that we are, we're, did you guys watch Captain Planet growing up? Captain Planet, he's our man. Megan's too young, I know, I'm sorry, Megan. So let me explain Captain Planet to you. There were a series of people gathered from around the world that had rings with power. Yeah, water, wind, fire, and then Hoagie, who was always like the janky kid. He was like this wispy little thin kid. I don't know where he was from, maybe the Philippines. Uh, and he had a monkey, and they would fight pollution. They would fight the evil bad guys who were trying to uh bring pollution and crime to the world, and they would summon with their rings Captain Planet, who was a dude, a blue superhero with a mullet. And he would fly around and he would just punch bad guys right in the face, and he would quip and he would like do things, and then he'd get in trouble, and then Jo-Jo the monkey would save him, and then everybody would be great. And that was like a thirty-minute episode.

Yeah, he was in that era when we were trying to make environmentalism cool, when we were really trying to make it, we really trying to make it a thing of like, punch pollution in the face.

Yeah, yeah. Um, I don't know how well that's worked out for us. We're not going to have a global warming debate today. Um, but Megan, what was your, did you do Saturday morning cartoons then?

Oh, Saturday, yeah, yeah. I mean, I watch all things. I don't know. I think one of my favorites as a kid growing up, I watched Power Rangers, like the original. That was, I think, I wore out the VHS of like the first Power Rangers movie with Ivan Ooze. And yes, like ruined that because I watched it so much. That is a solid choice, actually. Uh, a friend of mine, he's been married for ten years, and every single year for like their birthday or their anniversary or something, his wife will get him a piece of the Green Ranger costume. Well, this year for their anniversary, she completed the set, and he dressed up as the Green Ranger. And I'm talking like legit helmet, spandex thing with the mantle and every, and the glove. He looked just like Tommy. I mean, way less jacked and way shorter, but like, looked just like Tommy. It was, that's so cool. Watch that. Like, they did the talk to. And so he has an Apple Watch. So yeah, I think so. I think he could just say like, "Hey, you know, I'm not going to say the word, but you know, hey, that person," to tell me the time or whatever. Uh, it was, it was talk about a wife that understands her husband. Like, that's his love language is just nerd stuff.

John, what was your, what was your cartoon of choice on Saturdays?

I've been going back through the Looney Tunes because my kids are younger, and so like the old school Looney Tunes are just classic and cannot be replaced.

Yeah, uh, they're so good. Did you do Animaniacs by any chance?

Uh, yeah, there's "Zany to the Max."

And Yakko, Wakko, yeah, and Bill Clinton on the sax.

Yep. Uh, man, okay. That was, I've tried getting my kids to watch Animaniacs, and they just kind of, they look at me like, "What is, what are we doing here?" What, it's uh, this isn't the Road Runner. Uh, there is the mini Road Runner or whatever, Road Runner Junior.

Yeah. Today I started this all by saying "The Avengers," and in Captain Planet, we have the wonderful and amazing and talented Megan Carter and John Pile, both of whom have been on this show before, both of whom have brought a wealth of knowledge to what we are actually doing here with Glue, but not only with Glue. I'd like to think we're saving digital ministry. I'd like to think we're like, we are impressing something upon this world that nobody has seen before. Uh, and that's why I call ourselves The Avengers today. Uh, we, as you can see from, by the way, do you like my background here? You know, you're in Harry Potter heaven. We are we're all Christmased out right now. And uh, we have spent the last couple of weeks here at Bay Hope, my home church, uh, talking about Christmas and doing Christmas, and it, we're doing all things merry and all things bright. And that's kind of the theme. And as I was talking to them uh to kind of organize this episode, I figured let's do two things. Number one, let's bring all of us together on camera. But number two, let's talk about the holidays. Let's talk about the things that uh really happen during the holidays because one of the things that we see, all three of us see, especially with users of Glue, especially with explorers themselves, we see kind of an uptick in the quote unquote issues, particularly in depression and anxiety and loneliness. And you know, we're going to, I'm going to ask the experts on this. I'm going to back out and ask the experts. But out there, I'm hoping you all resonate with this where, you know, it's not just family stress, it's not just, you know, all those money stress, and it's kind of the compounding effect of all of these things all over that.

Megan, I'm going to start with you. So like, when you start to think about the holidays, what, and especially talking about explorers and the responders that are going to the explorers, and but we can get a little meta with it, what do you start to think about? Like, what are the things that you see coming back at you?

Yeah, I mean, I think you hit on so many, even just there. But you know, just depression, you have that seasonal depression that hits when the sun starts going away. We don't have as much daylight. That just changes a whole, I don't know, it just changes your whole mood. Um, and can just come on so quickly. Um, so there's a lot of that. And then that isolation, especially with cold weather. If I mean, like, where I'm at today, the high was like thirty-two, so not great. But so you don't want to go outside. You don't want to be out. Out, yeah. So you're going to isolate in your house, um, by yourself sometimes, and that's where your brain can just start having a field day. Um, so that's where a lot of pieces come. And then everything, like you said, gets piled on top of that. And I was actually looking it up before this because I just wanted to have some like actual stats because I like to have that. Yeah. But I looked up on the National Alliance on Mental Illness, and they noted that sixty-four percent of individuals living with a mental illness felt that their conditions worsened around the holidays. So not only like that sad, the seasonal depressive, but just any mental illness in general starts to worsen. And I think there's a lot of factors that go into that, and grief can be one of them, and just that isolation again can be added on right there.

That's a, that's an interesting grief is the interesting thing. Um, I hadn't even really considered that.

John, I want to I want to come to you now. She said "piled on," and so I was like immediately looking at you on the screen. Uh, that's my guy. Uh, so John, what what are the things that you see kind of through Glue, but also just in in in general in terms of the feelings around the holidays?

Uh, there's a profound loneliness, just a just a almost epidemic level loneliness. And you know, Megan was talking about the isolation, that's absolutely true. And I think a lot of people combine those two concepts, and I think they're actually separate. And so the isolation is kind of a sense of being on the outside looking in, and there's certainly a strong piece of that in the holiday season of because in your head everybody's sitting down for the perfect Thanksgiving meal, right? Or they've got everything all around the tree, and you're comparing it. But the loneliness piece is like a sense of a lack of deep connection. Um, and so I would separate those two just a little bit. And not because the isolation is definitely true, the loneliness is also true of people just not having a place where they really feel like they belong and a community where they feel safe.

They really feel like they fit, and you might feel like that all year, but nothing, nothing brings that to a head more than holidays like Thanksgiving and Christmas. Is this the fault of media, pop culture, you know, Hallmark movies and Elf and all those things? Is this that fault, or is this, um, the hormonal imbalance that comes from seasonal affective disorder and all of the other things there? And this is open to either of you, feel free. I mean, yes. And I mean, it's, it's everything because you also have social media in there that goes, "Oh, we went to the pumpkin patch," and they make it look like it's perfect, but they didn't see the blown out diaper, they didn't see the argument on the way there. And so there's a sense of maybe how it should feel. Um, but we also have a systemic social decay where a lot of these, not just like, not just institutional structures, but family structures are breaking down, and the bonds that we have are breaking down. And so you add that with what you were talking about, Andy, of the expectations created, and then we have weaker bonds, and then we have institutions that wouldn't know if you were alone on Thanksgiving or not and don't care. Um, even your church sometimes, like you might just be a nameless person that attends a large church, and so you can really, really get out there untethered and be isolated in a way that you never were before.

Yeah, I think a lot of that goes back to that comparison game that we all play. Um, it doesn't matter if it's just like your neighbor or you see somebody on social media that you always see, like you're comparing your worst moments to somebody's best moments. And so that's the same thing with isolation and mental health is that you're like, "Well, nobody is struggling with mental health like I am. Like I am the only person out here," when in reality you're not. Just not a lot of people are talking about it. Feel like it's getting a little more traction, which I'm excited about, because like people are starting to recognize, "I'm not the only one."

Yeah, um, because you're not. But that's just so much. It just feeds into that. And I think that's a way that even like we can just, our minds can take over and just be like, "Well, my holiday with my family doesn't look like this person's," or even like between different families, like you have, you know, being married, you have one family that you've grown up with, and then you have your in-laws, and they're completely different. So like, how do you not compare one to another is a really difficult piece. Um, through the holidays as well, and that can add a lot of just extra stress. And I think we talked about expectations, like yeah, adding that on top of it, just there's only one way for it to go is just downhill after that.

Well, and let me add, add a little something, something, Andy. That's maybe a little bit off of, give me the special sauce here. A lot of, a lot of times we're thinking about people that are very isolated and lonely and completely removed, but feelings of loneliness and isolation skyrocket within families that have structures in place of just the moms that are super stressed out because they have to wrap all the presents and keep everything going in the holiday season, or a single parent trying to make it work, but you have to communicate with your co-parent, or the dads that are worried about getting laid off or not having enough for Christmas. Like those are kind of stereotypical, but I think in a lot of families, even if you have the structure, it's still an isolating time because of a lot of the comparison game, um, that Megan was talking about, of you can be surrounded by family, you can have all of the perfect, quote unquote, Christmas card pics, and all those things, and that profound sense of isolation of, "Nobody gets me," or "Nobody understands me," or "Nobody sees me," and the profound sense of loneliness of, "I don't have the deep connections that I long for," can still be there under the surface.

Hmm, yeah, that's, uh, that's good stuff. I, I actually, I just had lunch with my daughter. She's seventeen. Um, and we were actually talking about this same kind of phenomenon. One of the things that she has noticed, and on her, so she is, she's not my, my, my daughter daughter. I mean, she is my daughter. We've been married for ten years, like she calls me dad, all the things, but her biological dad, um, during the holidays in particular, he's never, you know, her, and or, um, he and my wife were married for nine years or so, had, you know, three kids, and then everything kind of fell apart. And one of the things that he now feels during the holidays is that he doesn't have anybody to share this with, which, you know, the very cynical part of me is like, "Well, bro, that's your own fault. Like you did that. You did that to yourself." He's not going to listen to this, so like, that's your own fault. But also, like, yeah, I can totally, totally see that. And she was kind of commiserating with that and just saying, like, "How do I, how do I help him with that? How do I tell him, even though he's three and four hours away, how do I tell him that he's going to be okay? That everything's okay? And all these other things?" And I legitimately did not have an answer. Like I, I legitimately did not know how to say, "Hey, just text him this thing or call him and do this thing," which kind of moves me into where I wanted to go for this episode.

We're thirteen minutes in, and we're finally getting around with the thing, 'cause I just, I feel like I could just sit here and talk to you guys forever about this. It's a true Avengers experience. It's thirteen minutes in, and we're starting to get around to the plot. I, you know, and I think we need like stingers at the end of this thing and all those like two and three stingers to think about, you know, the future of our glue averse, or the glue cinematic universe. But, uh, we represent our own churches, we represent our own ministries, but we also are here talking about glue. And one of the things that I have seen, at least in my own experience with glue, is that around the holidays, now granted, the last holiday I really used this for has this has been like the first major holiday I've been using glue for because we've been using it just for a year. Um, how about you guys? Do you have any like texts or stories or anything that you can kind of talk about with people that are feeling that loneliness, even if it's not necessarily around the holidays?

Yeah, I mean, you definitely see an uptick. We get a lot more that come in. Um, sometimes on the holiday itself, because those are the people who aren't around family, or even if they are, it's that being around so many people but still feeling completely alone. And so really just like a general of people having questions about like, "Well, am I, what I'm feeling, is it depression? Or, you know, this issue, like this grief?" Because grief comes in waves. It's not just like, "Well, great, you've made it through this stage and this stage and this stage, and now you're good. You've finished all the stages." That's not how grief works. And sometimes I think we forget that grief is a part of our mental health too, because it will affect us in our daily life. And so especially around the holidays, we start remembering those family traditions or different things that happened. And, um, I think a really good piece to kind of just remember, and maybe it's something to talk to people about, is like, feel free to talk about that person or the grief that you have. Um, because you don't just, like, it's not for somebody who passed away. It's not just they've passed away and then you're done. Like, they're still a part of your life. They're still a part of your family. So have those conversations. I know that's something that even my own family, we do. We lost my uncle, um, a few years ago, and so that's something we all like, we still bring up, um, even though sometimes it's harder than others. We realize that, but we also know that we're there together. So think just having somebody to talk about, and I think that's what people are looking for is someone to talk to. I think that's why they reach out to glue and on there and all the different avenues they have for that.

Yeah, that's really good, Megan. Yeah, go ahead, John. I just cut you off there.

Yeah, that's okay. I was going to say I got a text. It wasn't through glue, but still through digital means of a text from a guy that I happen to know that he was on Thanksgiving. So, Megan, on your holiday thing, he was kind of at the lowest of the low, and he looked around and realized that his life was one where he was sick, but he had nobody to take care of him. And so, "How am I going to, you know, do this? And oh, I'm going to try this Thanksgiving tradition, and then it burns, and then blah, blah," like it just ends up putting him at a very low place and a very dangerous place for his mental health where I think he was considering some harm and some other kinds of things. And so getting that text, I know that he's not alone in that. Um, I'm thankful that he actually reached out. Um, I don't know why, um, he chose me, but he did. So thankful for that. But I think that's very emblematic of where a lot of, where there's a lot of people right now.

And does, yeah, go ahead.

No, that's it. I was just going to say, like, so your thought there, somebody texting you, like, you guys are way better, way more trained than I am in this. Does depression and anxiety follow loneliness? Does loneliness come first? Like, is it a chicken and egg situation? How does all of that work in y'all's kind of estimation and in your experience?

Yes. Okay, cool. We're doing this. Yeah, yeah. As a non-technical term, it's kind of a cosmic gumbo, right? It all feeds into the same kind of feelings of disease and discomfort. And I, you know, I'm sure there's a technician or a technical person, Megan's more technically inclined certainly than I am, but they could tell you all about that. But it all feeds each other, and it's all kind of feeding this harmful narrative in a lot of people's heads. Um, I think for some people, just the way they were raised and their ongoing support systems have a little more resilience towards these more negative kind of thoughts. Um, and this is again all anecdotal, not technical, but folks that struggle the most with isolation and loneliness, part of what it does is it removes any positive effect. So when you have those thoughts, they're a lot more, uh, they're a lot more amplified because there's not anything pushing against it. There's not anything that's saying, "No, that's not true. People would miss you if you were gone. I love you. I'm here. I'm with you," right? But when you're alone and you're isolated, you don't have the counter narrative. And when you're stuck without the counter narrative, the negative voice in your head, whether that's in the, you know, depression, anxiety, trauma, other mental health related kinds of issues, that becomes the only voice. And I think that's where it gets dangerous for folks.

Yeah, well, people listen to that negativity and those negative, like, thoughts, and that's what they start to believe as truth, whether or not they are. And so once you start taking that and believing it as truth, that's when it goes deeper into that depression and suicidal thoughts because you start to really think that. And it doesn't matter, I think at that point sometimes if people are saying that, like, "Well, no, we would, we would miss you," it just, it doesn't make as much of an impact because you've already got that so deep within you. But there is good news with it too, because you can shift your thinking. Yes, it just takes a little bit of extra work, and sometimes that's a really hard first step for somebody to take.

So how do you not affect change on somebody? But and this is tips, I, we're, we're kind of doing an episode that's all over the place, so just let, let's let's let the wave take us, man. This is just like a lazy river. We're just going to bump into the walls and see where the current takes us. Uh, how do you, uh, John's...

Got his Lazy River face on. I'm assuming he's wearing like floaties? Yep, he's wearing just floaties on his arms right now. Oh, look at that, that's fantastic. For those listening on audio, you're going to have to tune in and check out what exactly happened there.

Um, Megan, you talk about there are ways to mitigate that. How? Like, is that a personal thing? Is that a "hey, you know, I can't just tell everybody that text me on Glue, like, hey, you're going to need to go see a counselor"? Like, I can't do that. That's not feasible for everybody. So like, what could I do as a responder? Or what could, you know, anybody out there listening kind of direct people to start doing?

Yeah, I mean, a big piece of it is just talking to them. Start up that conversation, build that relationship. It doesn't have to go into the depths of depression and talking through every little detail because that's really what a professional should be talking through with them. But you can talk through different pieces and you can start talking through, you know, kind of how they view themselves. Um, that's a big piece because, um, one of actually a counselor I went to, a big piece we started with was, "What do you see when you look in the mirror?" Now, that was not great things at first because there was a lot of body image, there was a lot of just, um, shame that I felt and guilt for different things, even though they weren't all truth. But that's things I had believed. So really being able to talk about it and having those conversations and like getting them to be honest with themselves is a big piece to walk through that, and that will help.

Um, one really cool piece that I, this is me kind of geeking out a little bit and I'm hoping I get this right because I don't have it written down, um, but so neural pathways are in your brain, right? Um, it takes about ten minutes from a thought to start to become a neural pathway. Now, that's exciting because you can have a positive thought and you start to build this neural pathway. Now, you can also have a negative thought and you start to build it. But as you continue to have those positive thoughts and you start to really believe them, those new neural pathways will be developed, and then it's a lot easier to start retraining your brain basically to think in more of a positive light.

That's good, huh? Yeah, huh. I mean, that's like the, that's the rolling a boulder up the hill and like getting out of the way when it comes crashing down, but eventually you get enough strength to roll it up there. So is there, obviously there's like a, there's an, in people are going to feel like there's an insurmountable thing with all the negativity, loneliness, depression, anxiety, things, especially around the holidays? You know, every single year there's this thing coming up. You know, the end of the year always feels like, "I'm going to run out of money, my kids are going to hate me, I'm going to hate going to my grandparents," et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. So how do you help them form neural pathways over that? Because like John said, you can't just tell people, "It's going to be all right, they still love you." You can't do that. So what can you equip people with? Like, what are some quick tips or tools that you can give them?

Yeah, um, one is just be honest with yourself. Like I said, like make sure you're and take care of yourself. Like this is not going to be a, um, popular opinion maybe with some families, but if the family causes you a lot of stress, don't go. Like, just really take care of yourself until you get into a healthier spot. Um, now that's not always possible. Um, it goes back to that idea if you've ever heard of like, um, the Serenity Prayer. So we talk about that a lot. Um, one of the other counselors here at the church, um, he has went through AA, and so he has a little coin that has it on there, and we talk a lot of times about the things you can control and the things you can't control. A lot of times the things we worry about and we start to obsess over are the things we can't control. So if we can focus on the things we can control, like if you can control not going to a family event and that's going to help you, then do that. If you can control like maybe just getting some exercise in because that will burn off the cortisol, which is your stress hormone, if you can do that, then just like a simple walk, do that. Um, so there's a lot of different pieces that I think tangibly you can do, and really focusing on that, that's something we do with our kids too because I have a daughter who deals with anxiety, and I'm telling her, "Okay, what can you, you know, what can you not control?" And she's like, "The situation." And I'm like, "What can you control?" She's like, "My attitude." And I'm like, "Yep, sure can." And that attitude is directed at you, Mom, right? Yeah, it's she's a preteen, so it's there. I've been there. Um, but I, it's such a simple thing to start focusing on, and I think that can really shift your thinking and start those new neural pathways if you start focusing on the things you can actually do. It's kind of like you can't change somebody else, but you can start to work on yourself.

Yeah, I like that. And I like that for people that aren't in a process that are just kind of, because part of what you're talking about is triage, right? Of you, sometimes you just can't go to the family thing. Do you have to do that for the next fifty years? No, but for right now you don't have to. And so I'll share a very specific kind of trick um for me and anxiety, and I just preached about it and people were like, "Hey, that's good feedback," and I feel silly sharing it, but I have to talk to my brain. And so part of what happens to a with anxiety for me, and I think for everybody, is that fight, flight, or freeze kicks in, and you have this fear response that's like a legitimate biological response. Like, and you can't control that response happening, that reaction, right? It's an automatic reaction. You can control your response to it. And so I talk to my brain, and so I go, "Hey, brain, I know that you're trying to keep me safe, right?" Because the flight mechanism kicks in, and I want to avoid the situation, right? I want to leave the anxious situation. I want to get out of this place, and sometimes it's not necessary. And so because I have been in a process, I think it's maybe more successful, but I still think people could apply it. I just go, "Brain, I know that you're trying to help me, and I thank my brain first because I don't want to be mean to my brain. And so I'm like, 'Thank you, brain, for trying to help me. I know that you think that something really bad is happening to me, but I'm just at my grandma's house and my uncle makes me really uncomfortable with what he's talking about. There's not a woolly mammoth chasing me. So, brain, I'm safe. I'm okay. Thank you for trying to help.'" And like, I've had to talk out loud before to my brain, which again kind of embarrassing, but it has helped me get a rein on some of what Megan was talking about of it helps develop some of those neural pathways of changing, focusing on what I'm focusing on, because it's easy to go down the rabbit hole of just an anxiety cornucopia of like anything can make you anxious, and then you're in this heightened state, and it's like touching a very sensitive kind of thing. And just talking to my brain, and so if you're out there, talk to your brain. Tell your brain thank you for trying to keep you safe, and then also let it know that you're actually safe. You're not in an environment where you need to be afraid. Now, if you're actually in an environment where it's doing something good for you, you should leave, right? Like Megan was talking about. It's trying to tell your body's trying to tell you something. Um, so listen to it. Um, that would be my little piece of advice. Uh, it's, I don't know if I've mentioned it on this podcast. I do like a thousand podcasts a week, it feels like, but I've said this somewhere at some point. I, uh, I am a terrible flyer. Uh, I hate flying. Um, I can't control the situation. I obviously have, I have diagnosed generalized anxiety disorder. I'm on medication. Like, I've just, I've had a history of anxiety and depression on all the things. Part of that is also obsessive compulsiveness, and if I can't control things or if I can't see the front of it, I have a real, real, real tough time doing it. You know, I have a tough even if it's like driving a bus. I'm fine in the bus because I can see up front. Uh, planes obviously you can't do that. And with this kind of new position I'm in taking over the next couple of months and kind of some things that I'm doing, I'm flying more and more and more to conferences and to speaking engagements and things, which is great. Love getting out there and speaking, but like the travel day for me is like this wearing sort of like you talk about fight or flight. It feels when I finally get to the point where I'm where I need to be, even if it's a two and a half hour flight, I go to the hotel and I am just worn out.

So I started um almost doing exactly what you're talking about, John, and and actually Megan, now that you kind of work in the neural pathways thing, something that you were talking about too. I started actually going through some treatment. Um, not like not like professional, like seeing somebody, but there was there's this program, YADA, Y, and I can if anybody has any wants me to recommend it, I can, but essentially what it is is retraining your brain. Anytime something happens, anytime that trigger happens where the plane bumps or you know you hear a noise that you're not sure about, uh, immediately the anxiety one goes like, "Oh crap, you're going to die," like you, and and because I'm locked in a tube at thirty thousand feet, like I can't feel the ground, and there's a weird sort of thing happening where I can look out the window and see, like, "Oh no, that's not actual ground." I immediately want to fight things or my breathing gets up. And the last two trips I've taken, I've been working on that exact thing of first of all, I'm going to say thanks for the hormones that are immediately coming through me, coursing through my body. Uh, thank you for the heart rate coming up, but by the way, like, and then I'll start to do exactly what Megan's talking about. I'm going to list all of the statistics that I know, like, "Hey, those wings are fine. They're supposed to be doing that, and the pilots, they also want to get to their families," and you know, on and on and on and on. And I can tell you what, the last two flights I've taken, I have felt less weird. It's still there. It's still definitely like underneath, but it has felt less and less like I'm going to die every single time. And my counsel for anybody out there listening or anybody that's going to be kind of trying to use some of these tips for some of the responders or from some of the explorers that are texting in or anything really that you're doing to help people is help them retrain that first step. It's almost like the, what is it, the two seconds of courage thing? Like, that's what you need is the ten seconds of courage to be like, "No, I'm fine. Like, I'm not gonna die here."

Yeah, that's really good. I agree. I think that's, and I think another piece just to add on to that, like a responder or anyone just trying to help someone else, is to get them to understand that like our mental health is just like our physical health. Like, we have to take care of it. And I think it's been separated so long. Like, either people make it overly like almost medical, or they make it overly spiritual, and there's no in between. But it is, it's a combination of the two. Just like our physical health, we're doing things, you know, for the glory of God, but we also have to take care of our bodies. It's the same thing with our mental. So to get them to understand that it's not like, it's not a personal flaw, it's not a weakness, like those kind of things can help start that shift with a lot of people.

of people because majority, especially if they're probably anywhere around our ages, um, they grew up thinking that it probably was a personal flaw or there was something wrong with them. And it's like, yeah, there may be a chemical imbalance, there may be something you need to check out, but there also just may be pieces that you just need to just work on. And it's not a—we've talked about this before—it's not a "pray harder" and you know, "have more faith," but like there's like real things you can do. I mean, there's so many things you can look up, even just online, to help, or different groups or different just resources out there. Um, and so that's always a great thing to have as well if you can have some of those resources or like a referral network that you can help send people to, whether it's online or they can meet in person, anything like that is always going to be helpful. Um, so it's, or any like the national like hotlines, those kind of things are are huge to have on hand.

The the kind of last little thing I I want to bring up here is that with the holidays, you you talked about grief, and I want to circle back to that because grief—you know, they always tell you the firsts are the worst. I remember after my mom passed away, she passed away in June, and it was my birthday right after that, and then shortly after that was Thanksgiving, and then Christmas, and then New Year's, and then all of the firsts super sucked. We I routinely see this through our own sort of care team here. But how do you help bring people through the first—whatever the first Thanksgiving, the first Christmas, the first, you know, Hanukkah, anything like that? What are what are some kind of boots on the ground type of things that you guys can do to help alleviate that?

I think it depends on, you know, if you're in person or online. Those are definitely two different things. If you're in person, you can go and actually see them. But a great way to connect, just connect with people—like it could be even if you're, you know, been talking with somebody an explorer on Glue, and you know it's the holiday and you know they've been saying it—then maybe just send them a message saying, you know, "I'm thinking about you today. I know that this is going to be a tough day to get through, but if you just need to talk to somebody or vent or anything that you feel, feel free to just send me a message, and I'm here. Like, don't worry, I'm with my family, but I can also be there for you." I think that's just being available um to people like that is a huge piece, and just letting them know that it's okay to feel that. Like, it's not something to be ashamed of, that you're feeling the grief or or struggling with it. It's the normal human response that we go through. So if they can just know that, again, that they're not alone, that they're not the first person, they won't be the last person to go through this, but I want to be there for you—is is a huge piece.

Yeah, these—when it a lot of times I'm talking to to men, and so when I'm talking to men, I think one of the fears that people have is is um talking about the cause of the grief and being worried that you're talking too much about it or reminding them. But one of the biggest things has just been for me just being like, "Oh, well, what do you miss? What were the things that?" And almost every time, right, um, the grief gives way to these positive memories, and these positive memories almost—like, it's almost like completing a cycle. Like, at some point, you're grief pops up to such a level that you need to have some kind of catharsis in processing. And when people get stuck at that level and they're not talking about it, they're just going, "I feel, I feel, I feel," one of the best ways for me has just been like, "Well, tell me about what Christmas was like," and then they talk about making tamales and how important that was and how great that was, and just sitting there and being a listener takes them through this circular process where uh everything they kind of come with the in feeling a little lighter because they got to share. Because you know, um, you know, I forget the quote from Wanda Vision at this point, but it's "What is what is grief but love persevering?" And all of this grief is usually rooted in love, and they want to share and express this love. And so if you open it up and just allow a person to talk about it, a lot of times it it doesn't make the grief go away. It doesn't make the grief any smaller. It just gets a person to a place where they can go, "I'm glad I got that out. I can move forward, and I can do this holiday season and remember the the special traditions and all those things."

Tell me you're in San Antonio without telling me your San Antonio. You said tamales. Oh dude, and both Megan and I are going like, "We don't have anybody—maybe you do, Megan—but I don't have anybody in Tampa that wants to make tamales around the—" Well, and so just a just a cultural like little interpretation thing here. It's a huge Mexican culture in San Antonio, and part of how folks celebrate the holidays are tamales. And what they do is they get together, and a lot of families make them themselves, and every generation is gathered around a table and kneading the masa together and the corn to make the the kind of corn piece and the husk, and they're doing it all together. And and that's a very sentimental memory for a lot of people, and it comes post-Thanksgiving in the Christmas time and the New Year. And so that's the cultural translation, you know? Maybe your family does—I don't know—green bean casserole. Like, it's different because tamales just take a lot of time to make, and you make hundreds of them at one time, right? And so it's a little more of a a family project. Um, it it's a food. It's like food combined with, let's say, like board games or questions, where it's like it's got the social piece and it's got the food piece. And so, you know, other—I heard somebody talk there from Wisconsin, and they're like, "We play Euchre when we get together with all of our family, and there's always a game going on for the for like three whole days, and people are jumping in and jumping out." And there's all these family traditions. And so tamale is here in South Texas is a big part of that.

Megan, what about you? What's the what's the tradition that you guys hold on to?

Oh man, I don't know if we just have one tradition. Um, we—I mean, typically, like, my grandpa will always read the Christmas story before we do presents. Like, that's our um. But that was definitely uh changed a little bit after my uncle passed and stuff too. Like, it it took him years to get back to be able to read that. Um, but it was like at every year a grandkid or great-grandkid is sitting on his lap while he's reading it, so it's like a real special thing. Um, but nothing like—I don't know, we don't we don't make any cool food. I wish we did. That would be awesome. I love it.

We do a we do a baking day every year. My wife spearheads a baking day where we just like, we take a Saturday. She takes a Saturday off work, and we just like, mostly her and I just kind of wash dishes and like get out of her way because she's a like an amazing craftsman when it comes to baking. And she makes like thousands of cookies and haystacks and all of the things that you you know, Puppy Chow and these dipped—these dipped Teddy Grahams that are just like heavy. I'm really hungry now.

Yeah, dude, like, I baking day is next Saturday for us, and like, I got to do a wedding. But like, after the wedding, you better believe I'm coming back, and it's it's on. That's awesome. I'm going to wreck some of those Teddy Grahams, man.

Yeah, I think the last thing, and this is is going to throw it completely um around—oh, I love it—but I know you're going to be like, "Oh, we should have talked about this longer." No, I'm just kidding. Um, but grief is not just like in death. Um, there's a lot of other grief that happens too. So being aware of that um as a responder, as someone talking to someone, that there are a lot of different avenues of grief. And sometimes the ones that happen while we're like living can be the hardest because they can continue to be there. Um, and they always—they'll come back, and and that can be—I mean, I'm not going to name things because it'll just the list would go on forever—but I'm sure just like listening to that, you can start to pick up on things that you know, like, in your own life that you've had to grieve. Um, there's a lot of different avenues for that, but that's a huge one is that it's not just—it's kind of like when mental health, you know, we talked about that, is not just anxiety and depression. There's so many different areas. It's just the same way with grief. There can be many different areas that the holidays can bring that extra stress and add into that.

I I actually, it's funny you say that. I went through grief counseling after my mom passed. It was a it was kind of bad. I mean, she went through—she had cancer, and it was it was bad. It got real bad towards the end. And after she finally went home to be with Jesus, I was going through grief counseling. And the very first session, I was sitting with the counselor, and she said, "Okay, talk to me about your trauma." And so I talked to her about my mom, and she said, "Okay, that's cool. That's capital T trauma. What about the lowercase t traumas?" And I went, "What do you mean?" She goes, "I don't know, when's the last time you had a girl break up with you?" I said, "Well, okay, like, we can talk about that." And she said, "Okay, what about the last time that you looked at your checking account and went, 'I don't know'? What about the last time that you know, one of your kids got hurt?" She said, "Trauma is something that is that starts the grief process, and anytime something like that happens, doesn't matter what it is, that trauma is essentially what is going against what you expect to be happening. That's what trauma is." And I know that's like a very—I I I think I looked at her said like, "That's a very counselor way of like telling me that the world kind of sucks and we just need deal with it and trust Jesus." And she said, "Yeah, but but there are ways to go through that. But she said there is a process each and every time something like that happens."

Uh, Megan, I I don't—I know that you have been through all of the courses, all the schooling, all of the other thing. Uh, so I guess I'm going to ask you this question: is that just a way of saying like the world kind of sucks and we just need deal with it and trust Jesus? Or is that like an actual legitimate way of looking at things?

I think it's a legitimate way of looking at it. I mean, there's—you think of, you know, you've heard PTSD, that's when you have this big traumatic experience. A lot of times, but there's also C-PTSD, which is complex PTSD. So it's when you have a lot of these little traumas, the little traumas that add up to make you still have that same reaction. So there's a lot of different things like that that that are very true. I mean, there's a lot of pieces that we don't always look at as like you were talking about the girlfriends breaking up with you or you know, different things like—we don't always look at those as traumas in our life. And I don't want to overuse that word because sometimes like you hear like "trigger word warning" and all this, and I'm like, "Okay, that may not be"—we're overusing some of it. But there are legitimate, you know, those different pieces when they do change your expectations. And I think that goes back to the holidays of like, we always, always have these expectations, and when they get changed or something, you know, that could seem traumatic, happens. Um, we don't always deal with it um like we should. And so if you don't deal with it and just push it down, it's not going to end well. It's gonna at some point it's gonna kind of explode. Um, so definitely to to look at those and and really focus on them to figure out how to deal with them.

Is a super important thing to do. See, my Midwestern work ethic tells me that I just knew I'm from Michigan. Like, this is what I've told. I just push all that down. And then when I'm 60 years old, develop a drinking problem. Or, like, the drinking problem happens when I'm 20, but it manifests itself when I'm like 50 or 60 when my liver starts failing.

Yep. You're telling me that's not the way of doing things?

No. The whole like, "Buck up," you know? "Don't..." Why is Grandpa in the shed again drinking his special juice? I want to... I want to play with Grandpa, but he's back in the shed again. He's got his tongue hanging out of his mouth. He's passed out on the dirty couch out there.

Yeah. Well, I love this line, and I won't try to go too far, but I just want to say that in the last three years we've experienced a collective trauma from the pandemic because we've all lost people and we've all lost things. And whether that's your high school graduation, whether that's the expectation of what reality was going to be like, and because that's what you know, that's what grief is about—loss. And so we've all collectively lost, and we've never collectively healed. And so we're over a million people dead. Like, we all have somebody that's connected. We all have lost something, whether it's a job, whether it's an opportunity, whether it's name it, name it. And we lost something. And so we've never had that collective healing. And we decided to, Andy's point, as a country, just to go, "Well, uh, we'll deal with that later. That's a problem for future America to deal with," you know? And oh, America's drunk in the shed again. Oh, Grandpa, stop. Grandpa, we gotta... we gotta go. We gotta go home, Grandpa. We can't drink whiskey at McDonald's.

Um, so and so we all have this loss to wrestle with. And whether you think you've been affected or not, you have grief that, if you haven't been intentional about it, is unprocessed. And it's just sitting there. And this is a time where it can back up on you, certainly, but it's also a time where you can start to deal with it and process it and come to grips with what has been lost and mourn it. Truly mourn whatever has been lost because it's legitimate. And in a lot of ways, I think there's probably people out there that have told you what you lost was not legitimate. And I like, we're here to tell you it's 100% legitimate to grieve it. But let's grieve it. Let's do it. Let's not wait anymore.