EP296 - Mental Health Ministry with Megan Carter

I don't know if you've noticed or looked, but a lot of professional counselors, therapists, they are booked. It's hard to get into them a lot of times, and so either you have a waiting period or you have a hard time finding one at all. And so having somebody that can sit down and listen and talk to you, that's the biggest part, to be able to just be there, that can make a difference in someone's life, just being there.

Welcome to the Church Digital Podcast. Through this podcast, we'll talk about the technological innovations within the church, but more than tech for tech itself, we'll address deeper questions. Is discipleship making possible digitally? How should we approach the digital mission field? Can a biblically grounded church operate in digital space? And where does the metaverse and artificial intelligence fit into all of this? Whether you're a big or small church, the Church Digital's goal is to help churches like yours learn to be a multiplying church digitally and physically. And now here's your host, Jeff Reed.

All right, hey everybody, welcome to the Church Digital Podcast, episode—uh, wow, I probably should have looked that up in advance. I want to say this is 296. Um, hello, Melanie. We got we're doing a live stream here for this recording. Whitebeard Punk does tell me it's 296. So anytime Whitebeard is in the Discord chat, he has several unofficial titles with the Church Digital. Number one, he is the resident digital theologian. And so anytime there's a theology question or like, dude, like I think he was alive during some of the Bible times—I'm not publicly calling him out for being old, but his beard's long enough that he can totally pull off the look. But more than that, he is also the fact checker for, especially for the Church Digital Podcast, because I make up crap all the time. And Whitebeard is always one to say yes or no whether it's true. I'm not saying he publicly calls me a liar, but privately he's like, dude, you may want to like check that. And so I have to back and repair. Yeah, it does. He's like the, you know, the Holy Spirit and the devil kind of sit on the shoulders. Yeah, if you're watching on YouTube and you're watching me kind of bounce up and down in the chair with two hands on my shoulders, um, you know, you're seeing that. So Whitebeard is one of the two. I'll let him—he's both. Honest to God, I was about to say I'll let him decide which one he wants to be. Hilarious. And so he says in chat that he's both, which I'm actually okay with. And so hey, the Church Digital Podcast brought to you by Riverside. We are broadcasting, uh, doing the stream live in Discord, which is why we're able to interact with people in live, and then we're recording in the background. God bless the technology. And so, um, you know, Riverside just continues to roll out stuff week by week. It's unbelievable, this platform. So if you're not utilizing it, if church, if you haven't looked at it yet, the church.digital/Riverside, be able to connect, um, record high quality video, remote interviews, uh, shorts, upload sermons for AI short production. Oh my gosh, there's so many features in this thing. And so professional level software, check it out, the church.digital/Riverside.

Hey, Simon walks in. Simon, uh, Dirk's from, uh, Germany, and so, uh, from Beta Church as well as, um, the—oh my gosh, Simon, I'm blanking on the name of your planting organization. Um, I should know this. Cloud Kirsch. I'm probably mispronouncing Kersch, Kirsch, however you say church in Germany. Cloud Kirsch, that's right. So so there you go. We're we're excited. Hey, I'll just say this, you know, we're right now, uh, we're actually merging Cloud Kirsch into TCD's Discord, and so there's going to hopefully be an influx of Germans running around Discord, uh, hanging out with us, and excited to see, you know, the Church Digital going into the season of, um, uh, international. Like, we're talking with Simon, we're talking with, uh, Tope. Tope, you know, is doing some stuff in Nigeria. Um, there's, and there's other conversations internationally. This was funny. I was actually—for a completely—okay, Megan, you know me. It's like, hey, Jeff, he's got like five, six businesses, whatever. And so, um, you know, today I started, uh, or I was sitting down with a guy, probably roll this out later, but at some point there's going to be another business we're going to launch that's selling a product that I'm not able to talk about right now. Um, but he was like, so like, what international connections do you have? And I was like, and Simon, you're one of them. I'll just say that publicly. But I started rattling off like six, seven, eight, nine, ten different countries that, and like his eyes got really big because I don't think he was expecting me to like, you know. And he's like, you know, people. I was like, oh, I was, oh yeah, like I, I mean, I'm not saying I know Simon like on speed dial, but if I'm like, hey, Simon, let's get on a call, like he's gonna do that. And, um, I'm not even sure the product will work in Germany, which then he's like, oh, I've got to figure out to make sure this thing's international. It opened up this whole other can of worms. And so it was awesome. But I love the idea of, you know, the idea of discipleship, digital discipleship, you know, and that's not a product, that's a concept. And the fact that, you know, Simon's wrestling with this internationally and Tope is doing what he's doing internationally, and, you know, even just to, I was on with a call, um, with two separate organizations that are looking at utilizing gaming internationally. And so it's how people are really utilizing this digital tool to even get into third world areas and behind iron curtains and things like that.

Speaking of that, Inchuku walks in, who's also from, um, Nigeria. Inchuku, correct me, in Nigeria. I'm almost positive. And so, you know, I love the fact that the Church Digital is moving more and more into this international state. And so hey, that's enough of a commercial upfront. So we got episode 296, um, Megan Carter, um, who is, uh, is a hero and a villain both at the same time in my life. A hero because she dives into mental health and really has addressed that, not just in digital ministry, in the church overall, which is the heart of this podcast that I want to get into a little bit. She's a villain though because for some reason she likes pirates more than ninjas. I knew that's where it was going. I, I, for the, you know what, Megan, what's interesting? So if you've listened to episode 295, we had, um, we had Stuart, we had Tsunami on Stuart McPherson, and yes, shut up, Whitebeard. And we also had—that's funny. And we also had, um, uh, Payton, Payton. I keep want to say Payton Manning. Payton Jones. Um, on the podcast, you know, church planter extraordinaire, training people in 72 countries digitally on how to plant churches. Like Payton's doing some incredible stuff. Plantology, author of the modern textbook for modern church planting. And, uh, and so Payton's a big ninja guy. Like he's his nickname's the church planting ninja. He's literally got the tattoo like ninja clan on his arm that, you know, the GI Joe lore that Snake Eyes and Storm Shadow have on their body. And so, you know, he's a ninja guy. And Megan on the podcast was rude enough to say, yep, publicly with Whitebeard, that, um, that ninjas suck and that pirates are better. I'm not sure exactly what you said, but I did say pirates all the way. Yeah, and you can take it how you want it.

Well, and here's the deal. Like, and I'm okay that Megan has this opinion. You know, I'm feeling a bunch of negativity towards ninjas coming towards me with pirates. And honest to God, I'm looking at the room, the people that were in the stream, and I'm like, whatever Megan decides, I'm going to say is going to be the decision. And Megan, Megan says pirates, and I'm like, what the crap, Megan? You sold me out. Like, why are you doing this to me? I was really upset. But here's the truth, Megan. Like, I have—I have asked—this is not an exaggeration. In the—it's not even maybe it's been a week, maybe it's been—I think it was less than—actually, we did that interview Thursday, so it's been five days since we did that interview, had that conversation live in real time. I've asked 20 people, ninjas versus pirates. To the tea, not one person of the 20 has said pirates. Like, I don't know what Discord was smoking at that time, what resident air was, Flo air molecules were floating around the digital chat room that everybody was inhaling to get them thinking that pirates was cool. But for whatever reason, everybody else has been like, why in the world would you want to be a pirate? So Whitebeard's got some influence over everybody. I don't get it, Megan. I will shut up. I want your thoughts. I want your thoughts.

No, I, um, yeah, pirates all the way because I, well, I grew up with Pirates of the Caribbean. Um, Johnny Depp. Like, they, the first like three movies were—after the fourth one, it kind of went off the rails a little bit. But, um, I can, I think I can watch the first one without any sound and follow through. So you told me—I mean, I'm calling you out publicly. You've got a tattoo referencing, uh, Captain Jack. Yep, I have a sparrow on my shoulder, like kind of the back. Um, some people are like, oh, it's the sparrow, like Jesus doesn't, you know, he always feeds the sparrows. And I'm like, yeah, it could mean that. Um, but no, it was definitely for that. Uh, I've got those and some other Disney ones and other favorite movies, shows, but yeah, so it's a sparrow, not—not that God cares for you. Uh, it's not the sparrow of the—what it was. No, that was not the intent. Literally Captain Jack. Unbelievable. Yep, yep. Well, Whitebeard is furiously typing away at his keyboard with some, uh, uh, response, angry that I'm calling out his, uh, his pirate reference. I think he started—yes, I said that you're fact checking me. I said the Holy Spirit said dove, not a sparrow. You don't need to correct that. Uh, but it is bird related. Okay. Geez, theologian and fact checker at the same time. Uh, Whitebeard's all over me. He owns it. Okay. Um, well, hey, Megan's on here. We're in episode—we're in season seven. Uh, the season not to be named because every name I come up with I didn't like. But really, what I'm featuring here with season seven are a lot of the facilitators for the learning communities that the Church Digital is putting on. If you stuck around this long to talk about mental health in the church, good for you. Like, you survived, uh, 15 minutes of random garbage talking about sparrows and tattoos and pirates and ninjas and all sorts of good stuff. But with the learning communities, and you're probably acknowledging, hey, that guy Jeff does need mental health after this, uh, some attention after this conversation. But, um, through the Church Digital, we're doing five different learning communities, um, here this summer coming up. And so we're doing season seven. Pirates be pirates. No. Um, Whitebeard's really trying hard. At some point I gotta like, you know, ignore that. But no, I'm kidding, man. You're awesome. Like, I love it. I love the engagement in this stuff. But we're doing five different learning communities, um, and so information is at the church.digital/LC for learning community. The church.digital/LC, and so you can pull up more information. Uh, Andy Mage is doing one on, um, asynchronous communities, like how to do Discord or Slack or even how to elevate your Facebook group to another level, really digging into the power of digital communities, asynchronous communities. Uh, Megan, of course, is doing mental health. Uh, we've got—I'm doing one on hybrid micro churches and physical churches, launching micro churches and how to grow that ministry out of your online. Um, there's, uh, who am I missing? Uh, Barbara is doing one on digital, uh, communications, and then Stuart Tsunami is doing—

Thank you, Whiteboard Tsunami. I'm telling you, fact checker dude stays on me. You haven't said tsunami yet, Jeff. Uh, tsunami is coming up. Also doing one on, um, virtual reality church and how your churches can launch ministries in virtual reality, whether it's a full church or whether it's groups or, or whatever it looks like. And so, man, these are five opportunities for churches like yours to experiment, uh, this summer and launch something this summer. And so really are looking forward to that. And so we've had a number of them on. I think Megan is one of the last in the season, and then I'm doing mental health last week. And so check the Church Digital website and the podcast and YouTube to find past episodes. But Megan, um, you know, let's dive in here to mental health because I would love to maybe tease some of what you're doing, maybe get some exposure, and really try to elevate, um, you know, when we say mental health, it's interesting. Mental health means so many different things to so many different people. I almost want that to almost be like the first question. Like, as we're drilling in, what exactly does mental health mean to you? What are we addressing when we say mental health?

I mean, mental health is a huge part of our lives. It's always been there. Um, it's one of the things that people have started talking about more. So if people are asking the question like, why is so much about like anxiety, depression, all these things out so much more in public? And I'm like, well, it's always been there. It's just you're making it more visible. More people are learning about it. And the more we learn about it, the more we realize that there might have been things that we didn't realize were things that we maybe struggled with. Um, like me, I grew up. I didn't realize that some of the things I struggled with was anxiety. And so bringing that to light and in a church format is amazing because we can hit on so many more levels than just like psychologically. Um, so we look at the person as a whole person, not just one aspect. And so that's the biggest thing. I love to be able to see like if I sit across from somebody, um, I talk to them about, you know, their spiritual health. Obviously, I work at a church. I'm a pastor. That's part of what I do. But talk about their spiritual health, talk about their mental health because I understand some of the, um, things that go behind that. Uh, we talk about emotional health, which is separate from your mental health. So that's a whole another piece. Um, emotional health, and then you have your relational, um, so that's just relationships with other people. And let's see, physical, spiritual, mental, emotional. I am missing one, and I just lost it. Of course I did, right? Um, but there are five. And so that is looking at a whole person rather than just one specific area is so important. And I think that encompasses like we can call it mental health, but it encompasses all of those things, um, that we can really focus on and help people because they're hurting in different areas and they're searching for something. Um, and if we can help them, and for me, if I can help them with a little bit of like biblical knowledge, but then also like the knowledge of how the brain is working and how our bodies just work with this and combine it together, it can do really amazing things.

Okay, so you're talking about like spiritual aspects, which, you know, you're a pastor with, um, with the Church United. I'm sorry, Church First Capital, right?

Yeah, yeah, um, and so like you've got pastoral experience that gives you the ability to speak to that aspect. What, how do you speak to the, like, I mean, you're talking about brain science at some level here. Like, um, where did you, where did you learn this? Like, what, where are you gaining some of this experience and knowledge?

Yeah, some of it comes from personal experience. Um, I've went to counseling myself, so I was able to work through some of my own anxieties, depression, and so some of that just from experience of life. The other is, um, I went to, with, uh, Light University, which is connected to the AAC, American Association of Christian Counselors, and they have programs that are set up for people that can go through, um, really for like lay leaders, um, or pastors that can go through, gain knowledge to be able to help people fully and wholly, um, and not just, you know, I love scripture, but not just throw scripture at them because a lot of people, that's not what they need right at the beginning. They need to be able to have this whole experience and then come in with the scripture, and then Jesus can meet them right where they're at. So there's a balance of those things. But going through that, um, I have a board certification of mental health coaching, and then I just finished my biblical counseling, uh, program not long ago, which was really long, but I made it through and survived. And so now getting ready to send in for my board certification as a pastoral counselor.

So just, it's really cool to be able to partner alongside and have a church that wants to do that, um, whether it's in person or online.

So does that make you a doctor? Does that make you a counselor? Does that make you what? Does that give you coming away with this?

So it would, uh, once I get the board certification, I'll be a pastoral counselor. Um, I'm not a therapist. I can't prescribe anything. I help and guide people along their path with giving them some practical tips, resources, practices to put in their life, kind of like we do with discipleship. Um, it's very similar. And so being able to do that and help guide them, and then it's usually for a shorter time rather than like if someone's going to see a therapist, it would be very different. But so there are limitations, and you have to know those limitations and know when it's above your pay grade and when it's time to refer to someone else. So that's a big piece of it too.

Yeah, love it. By the way, the chat's opening up and we've got some more people in the room. Pastor D joining us from California. Pastor D, I think I emailed you just this morning. Hope I got it to you. Andy was in, um, Flack Cap was kind of popping in and out a little bit as well. And so, you know, love seeing some more people. Yo, chat, Andy saying hey, appreciate that, man. I haven't, I haven't talked to Andy, you know, I've talked to Andy pretty much like every day, I feel like, and that's the first conversation that we've had today. I miss you, man. That's good stuff.

Um, so you have a, um, you mentioned before, hey, you know what, really when you're talking to somebody, you don't want to like, you know, take scripture right off the bat, beat him over the head. That's not helpful. Like, okay, you probably didn't say beat him over the head, but that was the visual that I concocted in my head when I heard it. I've seen it happen.

Yeah, no, I mean, we all have at some level. And, and, and to be honest, I've been guilty of it myself, you know, at some point, you know, just it's an unhealthy, it's an unhealthy approach. But I mean, honestly, that's how we were taught ten, twenty years ago, you know? Um, I mean, I can remember, hey, like, I've got a lot of issues in my life, and I can remember a pastor coming up to me when I was in my twenties, well, you know, have you prayed about it? Have you read scripture? Like, okay, you know, I mean, there's there's other, yeah, I mean, ten, twenty years ago, that didn't work that way. Um, you know, even today, I'll be honest, like, um, I walk around with a cane. I have like, I mean, literally, the brain synapsis between my brain and my legs don't work. And so like, it's documented, the reduced rate of how it goes through. So it's like dropped data packets back and forth, which is why I really struggle to walk. And I've had people, well, have you prayed about your situation? Um, yes, yes, I have. And God has said it's better to be this way. So, you know, don't be an a-hole, um, for I don't think anybody's listening that would have done that, but if you were, I apologize for calling you an a-hole at the moment.

Um, I'd love some insight from you here. How should we handle those situations? How should we talk with people as ministers, as pastors, even as we're training our volunteers? How do we respond to difficult situations? When do we apply scripture first, and when do we listen more? Like, what's a good rule of thumb?

I would say above everything else, lead with love. I mean, that's what Jesus did. If we're going to live our life like Jesus, lead with love. The other things, um, no matter what the situation is, they can be figured out or worked out later. But leading with love first. And the thing you have to remember is something I've learned when, um, I've done some, um, studying on trauma, which some of us might have a little bit of small t trauma from those responses we've gotten before in church. But is that everybody's trauma is going to be different. Somebody can experience, or two people can experience the exact same moment and situation, and one person can perceive it as a trauma, and one person can be like, no, that's normal, and it doesn't affect them. And so realizing that whatever people are going through, that it's real and like it's valid to them. There may be things like with a therapist or a professional counselor like they need to walk through, and there isn't, you know, some things they got to walk through to find that the reality may be a little different than they're perceiving it. But at that moment, they perceive it that way. So if you can start with just leading with love and then talking to them like a real human being, like not just running by. Like, we get so busy nowadays. Like, you see people on the street and you're like, hey, how are you doing? And like, before they even answer, you're gone. Like, you've already passed. And we don't stop to like be present with that person. And I think that's the biggest thing. Like, whether you're doing ministry in person or online, is if there is someone hurting and you can see that they're needing that, like stopping and being present with that person, however you can, and whether that's just chatting back and forth, um, or seeing them face to face, but being able to really be present with them and hear what they're saying and sometimes what they're not saying. So it takes a lot of skills, um, but even just like going in it with a little bit of empathy, you can make a big difference in that person's life. And then depending on the situation, and once you built some trust, you can really start speaking into their life with some truth that may be a little harder or some scripture that can go alongside to help that person. But you have to know that person a little bit to really dive into that.

Yeah, we talk a lot about building trust and earning trust, you know, especially in digital ministry, uh, because it's very easy to get on a soapbox digitally and chase off anybody right off the bat. I would love to ask you because you used a couple interesting words. Empathy was one of them, um, and presence was the other. Like, how do you, and you're a former digital pastor and you work a lot with digital ministry, um, even still. So how do you be present digitally? How do you build empathy with someone digitally?

You have to get to know people. Um, you can't just post content and leave it and never look at comments that are in there. Um, interact with people, find out a little bit about them, not in a creepy way because it can get creepy really fast, right? Um, but if you can create a community and even if it's just a one-on-one or you have a group of people that you're constantly in communication with, that's a great starting point. And I think this is one thing, um, Jeff, you know, it is Tyler when he...

became the Dig Pastor he was challenged to know a hundred people online and he has passed that down to every single staff member and so anybody that works with digital stuff it's to know a hundred people like actually know them. Um, how can you get to know them? And so that's been an amazing thing because through some of the digital content I've done I've been able to pray with people and they've opened up a lot more than I ever thought they would like through messaging and shared things with me and then you don't always see this response but I found like months later they came back and they're like, "You prayed for me and then this was the response of your prayer," and I'm like, "Praise God," like, and you kind of almost forgot because you're trying to connect with so many different people. But creating that, and that goes right back to that trust and just stepping, you know, the empathy piece is really stepping into their shoes. So if you hear somebody's story and they're talking about things, like step in, put yourself in their perspective. Like, how would you feel in that situation? How would you, um, handle it? And then that gives you a little bit of knowledge of like how to talk to them and perceive through that.

Yeah, um, and that's so good. And you know, Simon actually says in chat here, uh, and this is challenging when followers are scaling, you know, and that's that's an interesting challenge of digital. The idea of, "Hey, I got to know a hundred people." Um, now what? I love about what Tyler did, and, you know, I I had almost had a front row seat because, you know, and I communicate regularly and I saw this when he was digital pastor in engagement and, you know, all the way through like his process now as he's lead pastor and holding that standard towards others. I I think that's really how it scales, Simon. Is applying that policy to others. Like, it's one thing to expect the digital pastor to know a hundred people digitally. It's another to say, "Hey, volunteer, no, fifty, no, seventy-five, no, twenty-five. Like, like, build that relational evangelism." Multiplying, exactly. Multiplying DNA from the beginning. That's actually why I love Simon says multiplying from the beginning. That's why I love working with planters because planters, it's new culture. You can come in and you can say whatever you want and people will buy into it or they won't, but they buy in. They choose in. It's much easier to have no culture and create it than it is to change the established culture. That's much harder. Now churches like First Capital have had huge success changing culture because really they just modernized in some areas, but the heart of service and the heart of multiplying was really built into the DNA for decades. And so Tyler coming on was able to make shifts easily. Like, I I've had that conversation enough to know, um, you know, it's interesting. Here, Pastor D talks about how she's been with the ACC for years. Um, you know, I didn't realize that. Uh, Pastor D, and so that that's good to know. Um, what role, like, with it, is there anything that ACC does beyond like, I know you're doing a very intensive training? Is there lighter trainings? Is there other things that they they do as well? What is what do they offer?

Yeah, I mean, they have all kinds of trainings. They have like one-off trainings you can even do if you don't want to go do something like I did. Um, or honestly, the mental health coaching, it's forty-two hours, which sounds like a lot, but it's just physically two hours because each lesson is an hour long and you have a quiz. Um, that's how you go through it. But that's a great resource. It covers so much that it is designed like specifically to help those that are in churches or ministries that want to put this into place. Um, it's a little more intensive, but it it is so worth it if you have the ability to do that for sure. But they also have a whole bunch of resources that you can do just, um, in in specific areas that you would want to learn more about too. So you're offering a learning community, um, through through the church digital coming up, excited about that. It was interesting. We were we were in a in a session just, you know, we were in a meeting talking about, you know, some of the learning communities that were coming up and and to be honest, mental health wasn't a topic that was on my mind. And, um, and somebody said, "What about mental health?" And I was like, "Oh crap, we got to do that. We have to do that. We have to do that. Why did I not think of that?" Um, like, this is a, you know, and especially in recent months as I've been going through some some health issues and some trauma issues and reevaluating my own life and and my own, my own life makes it sound like it's much more drastic than it is, but uh, my my ministry and and uh and different different aspects of it, like, I was passionate about mental health, but I don't really think I understood it. I don't know that I understand it now, totally, but I definitely feel the pain points of it because I'm going through this. You know, it's interesting. Um, Andy, uh, Andy, you know, put in chat, uh, you know, talking about, you know, we should pray more. Uh, he says, "That's what I was told when I had my first panic attack as a pastor about ten years ago. Well, let's pray about that. Your faith isn't large enough." Had three different people, he says, tell me that. That, oh, you need to to pray more. Frustrates me so much. Um, yeah, and and and and to be honest, like, I'm I I feel that on a regular basis. Um, you know, it's interesting. I told Andy, um, I told Andy. Andy was probably one of the first people I told this to. I don't think I've said this in the podcast. Like, I mean, at some level, I I I am acknowledging that I, Jeff Reed, I'm suffering from depression. Um, now, it's interesting. I don't know if I'm depressed because of situations in my life. I don't know if I'm depressed because of situations of of my health, or I'm depressed because it's a side effect of all the medicine that I'm on because of my health. Um, like, if you if you really sat down and looked at it, there's a number of reasons. Now, you know, I I tell people I'm depressed and or all of the above. Pastor D, I agree. Um, you know, I say I'm depressed, and and it's like, you know, I almost I want to put a disclaimer right off the top. I'm not going to take my life. I am not a risk to myself or anyone else around me. And and and truth is, like, the day that I told, uh, TCD of the church digital leadership, I was depressed and was feeling symptoms of depression, like, just even admitting that in in a public environment, me, seventy percent of what I was feeling, depression, seventy percent of the weight was off my chest. Like, just acknowledging the stigma, not carrying it, not hiding it anymore, and and making the people around me aware so that they could be, um, sensitive, stepping in, helping, um, holding me accountable, um, you know, whatever it is. And what I loved about, you know, Andy and the rest of the the church digital leadership, none of them said to me, "Oh, well, let's, um, you know, uh, you need to to pray more about it." None of them quoted scripture at me. Now, it actually put, okay, for scripture, um, but it was a much more, I'm using this word gently, it was a much more real, tangible thing. Um, prayer plays a part in this, yeah, but the person, I think, has to trust you to the place where you get to the prayer. You you have. If I think culture is changing a little bit, maybe this is a soapbox I don't need to get on, um, but I I think there's a level of maybe years ago you could pray without earning the trust. Um, but in twenty twenty-four, there's so little trust that if you're praying without the trust, that person doesn't automatically trust the prayer. They don't trust God. It's it's the majority of people at this point in America do not have a relationship or even awareness of God. And so you taking time to pray to an, uh, an unnamed God that they don't know or recognize is the equivalent of someone praying to Baal or, you know, is I don't, some random God or, you know, Hercules, whatever. Like, it it doesn't, it doesn't carry weight like like it did ten, twenty, thirty years ago. And so the relationship aspect is very, um, poignant today. And I think that plays such an important role digitally as well as within in the physical church. Um, Whitebeard brings up a very important question that I want to come back to. Y, I'm okay with that. Um, we we'll end the show with that. Thank you, thank you, Whitebeard. He's he's so good, man. Um, talk to me specifically. You're doing this learning community. Y, who should, who should, who should come to this? Why should they go? What are you, what are you covering? Like, G, give us a rundown here of the type of churches that would benefit, why they would benefit from, um, doing an eight-week learning community with you on mental health in ministry.

Yeah, um, the people that should is people who care about people. Um, that's a wide net, right? But it's true. Um, if you, one of our core values here at the church, and I think that's why we push so much into so many different areas, is we deeply care about people. And if you do deeply care about people, this is a huge piece of people's life. Um, we we see a world that is hurting in so many different ways. Uh, so many people are even like just desensitized to so much that's a whole other conversation. But there's so many pieces, and and we see that online. Um, you mentioned how things have shifted like we can't just pray for people like we used to. It's not the same. It doesn't hold the same value. It's kind of the same way with the church itself. Um, we've had, we have less people that are coming in to the church to find help. They're going online. They're they're going on their social media. They're shouting it from the rooftops trying to figure out what to do, and they get all kinds of responses because if you look hard enough, you can find answer for whatever you're looking for, right? And so it it's I think leads a lot of people astray. It leads them down different paths, and and that can make it really difficult. So a big piece of what I'm I'm putting together is just how do we create a mental health ministry? So this could be an in-person ministry. It could be an online ministry. It could be with a group. It could be individually. There's so many different ways because our mental health is not cookie cutter. We can't just like stamp it and move it along because it doesn't work that way. We're all different and we're all unique and individuals. And so you've got to really work with that and and what your community that you have around you needs. And so big piece, we're going to talk about what mental health is a little more in depth. Um, why that's important to the church. We're going to talk about discovering your community needs. So whatever community is around you, whatever your network of influences, uh, we want you to find out what are they, what are they searching for, what are their, you know, felt needs, what are things that they're struggling with, and how can you kind of step into that? You may not be able to step all the way in because some of them, most likely, will need professional, um, help. And that's where building a reference like a a referral network, um, finding people that you know that you can trust, that you can help build that, is going to be so important. It's something we've worked here to do because there's a lot of people I've met with like one time, and I've sat down and I, they start talking, and I'm like, "I want to help you so bad, but this is above what I can do," and so I want to help you find the healing in your journey. And so how can I do that? So creating that, um, also talking about a huge piece is those who do mental health ministry or any kind of care ministry, talking about burnout. Um, that's real. Compassion fatigue. That could be a whole podcast in itself. It's real. Um, it's so, it's so hard if you get to that point. But there's

No, it's not like the end all. Like, you can come back from it, definitely. And just how to work through those. And then even like creating your own Sabbath, making sure that you're taking care of yourself as you're taking care of other people. It's that whole like the airbags in the airplane, like put your mask on first before you help other people. It's the same thing in any kind of ministry, but especially if you're dealing with some really deep and sometimes dark things with dealing with mental health. And we'll talk about balancing that spiritual side and the mental health side. How do we do that? And then, um, hopefully by the end, launching a ministry for mental health and what that looks like for whoever is part of it. It's going to look different for each one, and I'm really excited to see kind of the different ministries that come out of it. And it'd be different than what I do, but just be able to really launch some things to just deeply care for people and help them along the way.

Yeah, I love it. Um, you know, it's interesting, the idea of a ministry of mental health. Are there churches that are doing that? Is this a trend? Like, are the cutting edge? Or is this a brand new concept that you're exploring and bringing into the church digital?

I think there are some churches. Um, I think there's probably a lot of churches that are caring for people in one aspect. Um, when we hit that as a whole person, like we're created whole with all these different aspects, I don't know how many. We've tried to research and find some, and there are some who have like a counseling center connected to their church. Um, it's actually something we're working towards, um, which would be amazing. And just kind of trying to think ahead of the game. But it is something that is so needed, and there's so many people that, whether you're an online church or people come into your church, so many people that are sitting in a part of your church that you probably don't even realize are in need of that.

Um, I stand at the door and greet people as they walk in every Sunday, and there's some people that I've talked to and they come in with a big smile and they're like, "Everything's great," and I'm like, "No, it's not. Like, I know it's not." Um, I'm not going to call him out right there because that would be unethical, but we can have those conversations. And when you're able to open that up and really break that stigma of saying like, "Yes, you're like, you can be a Christ follower and deal with mental health issues," and that's, I mean, that's my story. Like, I grew up like thinking, "Oh, I can't be a good Christian if I'm struggling with, you know, mental health, if I'm struggling with anxiety and depression," and I was, as I was growing up, and then again it got the, "Just pray about it." And so for me, when I went to counseling, I went to a Christian counselor, and he did not start with scripture. And I think if he would have, for me it would have been a big turn off because that's what I only got. And so that was a big, um, change. And that's what really my passion comes from. It is I want to be an advocate for those people who have struggled with it and they have felt like something is wrong with them or something is wrong in general. And knowing that it's not something to just be fixed. Um, like, mental health is not just something that gets fixed. Um, you find ways to manage it. And you know, we talked about praying. Like, yeah, I could pray and God's big enough. He could definitely like take it away. That'd be amazing. Um, but he hasn't yet. So I have to find ways to manage it. And some days are better than others, but I can manage that around. And so as much as I can help other people and partner alongside them, and obviously I can't do it by myself, so being able to help train other people is so important. It's that multiplication piece, right? That we train others and continue to grow, um, that way that we can just reach so many more people for the kingdom.

How much of this is triage? You know, I've heard that described where, you know, the church should triage and then connect. And that gets back to some of the resource that you're talking about.

Yeah, like, as you're talking about a ministry of mental health, like is that really the front lines of this where you've got people that are triaging and then resourcing to someone for the long term? Like, is that the idea?

Yeah, I mean, it is. And you can see that if you compare like the mental health system to our just health system, which I know is not great, but like, if you have a headache, you can take Advil or something, you can take Tylenol, and then if it's worse, you can go to an urgent care, if it's really bad, or go to your doctor. And like, if it progresses, you can go, you know, to surgery and then you are going in rehab. So you have this like steady kind of flow. Um, you go up the hill and you go down. You've got that pathway. Usually, when people are searching out mental health and struggling with that, it's at that critical highest point. They don't get that care they need at the beginning. So this is a great way, um, and that's a lot what the AAC is doing with the mental health coaches, is creating lay leaders, volunteers, that can help with that triage piece as well. Um, but any kind of mental health, just caring for those, so that you can help direct them, so that it doesn't come to that point. Because I mean, I don't know if you've noticed or looked, but, um, a lot of professional counselors, therapists, they are booked. Um, it's hard to get into them. A lot of times, and so either you have a waiting period or you have a hard time finding one at all. Um, and so having somebody that can sit down and listen and talk to you, uh, that's the biggest part, to be able to just be there. That can make a difference in someone's life, just being there.

I mean, like, like I said, with the depression, um, saying it solves seventy percent of my problems. Like, I felt like I was not going to take my life. Like, I almost, I feel awkward having this conversation publicly because I don't want people to freak out on me. I was not planning on ending my life. Um, but I was circling around depression, and I was in a position where I didn't feel like I could get out of it. And I kept trying to solve the problem of why I was depressed, thinking that the why would actually help me get over it. Um, and I, after a couple, maybe a month or so, I could not figure out whether it was situational, which may or may not exist, whether it was medical, or whether it was health related. And I just, I got to this place, you know, after talking with counselors and, you know, I've got seven doctors on speed dial. I'm having conversations with lots of people. Um, and at the end of the day, I, when I told Andy, "Hey, man, I'm depressed. Like, I just, I need to publicly say that," I told my wife, and then Andy was number two. And, um, you know, when he and he looks at me and he, you know, shared some things from his life, and we had a conversation, and it was seventy percent gone. Like, I still struggle. I still have things that I'm weary about. Um, but things have been progressively better. And it was interesting. Like, even today, at a call with a friend, we were talking, had this conversation, first time I told them about this depression stuff. And, uh, and they asked me the question, and I got the feeling that they have experienced with some depression as well. And they asked me, um, "Hey, Jeff, where do you find joy?" And really, you know, started diving into, you know, "Hey, joy isn't guaranteed, but taking time to find happiness in everything that you're doing, um, in finding purpose in that and making yourself go through that exercise." Um, I mean, it really started to chisel away at some of what this is that's inside, some of this weight that I was carrying.

So I love what you're talking about here now. You know, you and I are saying, "Admit it, address it, embrace it, move on." Like, that's the 2024 healthy approach, some would say. And so we mentioned earlier there's a white cap, uh, white beard through white cap flat beard. I'm sorry, man. Uh, white beard threw up a link here, um, an article I actually haven't clicked on it, but, um, because I know the whole article. Uh, John MacArthur denies mental illness. No such thing as PTSD, OCD, ADHD, whatever. Um, and so John MacArthur, um, you know, I almost wanted to claim this upfront. I feel like we villainized John MacArthur a lot on this show now. John MacArthur has taken public shots at the church digital, digital church network, myself, and a former teammate, Chesley Lundy, uh, with our views on digital church. And, um, you know, Chesley made the statement the church needs a disruption, and John MacArthur and John MacArthur's team objected to that, took to the lines to, you know, publicly ridicule how we are operating and what we're doing with digital churches. And, you know, I replied back by offering him a copy of my book on virtual reality churches and said I'd love to have a conversation with him wherever he wanted. Leadership Network, Exponential, offered to host a conversation between the two of us, and, um, he did not reply.

So I am not, um, I do not want to pick a fight with John MacArthur, um, one way or the other. That being said, and this is the second week in a row John MacArthur comes up on a podcast, so I guess we just gotta be okay with that. Sorry, John, if you're listening. By the way, like, I used to run a Christian bookstore. Like, I mean, John MacArthur study Bibles would be on behind me on there, like, reading as a, yeah. I'll say this. In my twenties, I had a desire to do digital ministry, and not one freaking church on the planet had vision for it in the year 2000, 2001. And so I'm trying to figure out like how to like pay the bills. And, and honestly, like, my parents were like, "Go to seminary," and I'm because you want to do ministry. And I'm like, "Seminary is not going to teach me. I mean, they'll teach me about God, but this aspect of digital ministry? No. Like, it's nobody's talking or thinking or doing what I want to do."

Um, and there was a season where I really leaned into this idea of biblical counseling, and I wanted to be a counselor. I wanted to be the therapist. Like, mental health for me, even early 2000s, was a fascination to the point that I wanted like I've read "Intro to Biblical Counseling" by MacArthur from cover to cover multiple times. And in the forward, when he describes the story of basically saying he tells the story of a young person who needed, uh, who felt like he needed counseling, and instead he just needed to pray harder. That's the story in the forward before he actually gets into the book. In 2000, 2001, 2002, to be honest, that's what church culture was. You know, I can't, I don't want to slam the guy. It's believing the way that it's all they knew. And so it's, I mean, honestly, it's like the pastor that says to me, "You know, Jeff, you're going to hell for taking people out of the bride of Christ, his physical church building. You should repent of your sins and endorse the physical church instead of all this digital mumbo jumbo," which is a real conversation, by the way. I'm not just making that up. Um, I can't ridicule that guy. I don't, I don't agree with him. I think it's an old mindset, but to be honest, the majority of these people are old and have come from that old culture, and they haven't modernized. You know, a lot of people have vilified John MacArthur for a number of reasons that have nothing to do with the church digital, but the heart of it is he has an old mindset that has not adapted.

And I say this graciously and no, I don't really mean anything and don't let this statement go viral. At some point that generation is gonna die off. Like, that's not me ripping, that's just the reality. The danger, I mean, listen, I'm 46. The danger that I have is thinking that my way is the only way. John MacArthur thinks that his way is the only way. You know, I'm fearful of the day that I become John MacArthur holding to my truth that I believe without recognizing that culture can change while Jesus is the same yesterday, today, and forever. That's really the challenge that I think the John MacArthur crowd has because they're following a view of culture and are assuming that a lot of what they believe is theology is opinions and it's not grounded in biblical fact. It's grounded in extra-biblical ideology. Sorry, that's my soapbox.

Megan, would you like to contribute anything? That was a very long monologue on my part. That's probably the longest I've ever talked on this show. I'm gonna shut up. Megan, you go.

No, I mean, I agree with you. I think that's you can't beat somebody down just because that's the only way they grew up because there are things the way I grew up that I, if I would go back today, like to that time, I would be like, why did you think that? Because if we're not growing and learning, like we're not moving forward. And I think we do that even with like biblical knowledge and learning that. And what I would say to it, it's I've done some research into just different scriptures and we deal with a lot of different discipleship. I work side by side with our discipleship pastor and whenever somebody gets baptized, we always talk to them about, you know, the time that the leaders of the law came to Jesus, right? And they were like, which one of the 613 laws? Which I'm gonna say, I'm a perfectionist and there's no way I could follow 613 laws. It's just like 63 ways to fail, right? So I couldn't do it. But honestly, it was a thing that was impossible to really actually follow all those laws. And so they were like, well, Jesus, hey, you know, they're trying to catch him. Which one's the most important? And that's when he says the greatest of all these is love the Lord God with all your heart, soul, mind, and strength, and love your neighbor as yourself was just as important. And that's what I try to tell people, like that's how we need to live our life.

And the really interesting pieces, you know, Jesus knew who he was talking to in that moment. And when he was saying love the Lord God with all your heart, soul, mind, and strength, he was talking from Isaiah, which they would have known that because that's something they would have learned and grown up with. But Jesus added the mind in there. So in Isaiah it says with all your heart, your soul, and your strength, but Jesus had in mind. And I don't think that was by accident. I think that that goes back to the whole person is that he saw us as a whole person. And so my one piece would be if I was talking to John MacArthur, um, probably won't, but if I was, I would be like, we just need to look at people as a whole person like Jesus did. And so what somebody's struggling with, you may not relate with, you may not understand. And the more and more I learn about the brain, the less and less I know because it is so intricate. And for me, like looking at that, I see how just specific and so intentional God created us, how he created the brain to be wired. And yeah, sometimes it feels a little off or chemical imbalances, those things are real because we have some things to back it up. But we have to look at that as we don't always understand what that person's going through. And so if we can just take a moment to like set all of our own perspectives aside and sit with that person, that's that being present and then just listen to them and what they're saying. You may not agree with them and that's okay, but just be able to sit with them and listen and care for them. I mean, that's what Jesus did, right? He sat with them, he cared for them. And that's what we're supposed to do as disciples, supposed to follow him, his footsteps, and become more like him every day. And that's the way I go by it. And that's the way I try to live my life where I look back and see, yeah, I probably wouldn't done things like I do now that I used to. But yeah, living life like that and just leading with love above everything else.

Yeah, that's a really interesting takeaway. Leading with love. Opening up with that. Um, you know, here, Pastor D, uh, that culture of mental health, uh, still exists or the, um, you know, talking about MacArthur, that still exists in churches today. I can't necessarily say especially black churches, but yes, it's still present.

Yeah, and she, Pastor D, does a lot of work in African-American churches. Um, does, um, Pastor, I'm blanking on the name of your church right now, but she has a digital church that that operates in that space. Um, the, uh, she's she gonna tell me in a second. I'll say it. But you know, whether it's African-American or you know, Hispanic, the House of His Glory. That's right. Um.com, the House of His Glory.com. You can check that out. But um, the whether it's African-American, I know it's prevalent in Hispanic. I know it's prevalent in white. I know it's prevalent in blended. Um, like there's, um, there's lots of obvious problems. What I love about what we're doing is we're trying to provide a solution now. You know, the Learning Community, uh, awesome, come in here, explore, figured out what does ministry, what does a mental health ministry look like? How does triage? You know, what's working here? What's working for you? Let's learn from each other together. And let's experiment with some different ideas. Um, if there's if there's already a solution, then it's just executing on a blueprint or adapting it. And you know, maybe in time there will be, but it's not today. And so you know, us, the church digital, constantly wanting to be on the innovation line to help address some of these problems. Like I believe what Megan's describing as a bleeding edge concept to try to solve a problem that is prevalent in a whole lot of churches. And so physical churches, digital churches, hybrid churches. Um, you know, African-American, red and yellow, black and white, we're precious in his sight, something like that. I don't know. But the, uh, oh my gosh, I'm starting to sing in my head and I'm not going to do that here on this stream. But the reality is is that you know, anybody, Megan, what did you say? Who should be part of this Learning Community? You said I mean it was somebody.

Yeah, anybody who cares. Um, anybody who cares. Feel like I'm calling people out. Yeah, if you love people, if you give a crap about your neighbor, um, you know, but if if you want to understand how to better address um mental health, Megan, we're going to bring you back on at some point because I want to dive into the um the crash and burn of the supporters like that that that you mentioned that podcast into itself. It's huge. Um, but like I, I, you know, if if your church is interested in this, uh, there's more information. The church.digital/lc for learning community. Short that'll redirect you over. Whitebeard is like the teleprompter. I, you know, he's he's just on it, man. He's so good. Um, learning communities are at an introductory price of $797. So the summer, June, July, and August, eight weeks this summer, go through it all online. Uh, the church.digital/lc, more information on the website. We'll get you in touch with Megan and uh we can go from there. It's awesome.

Hey, Megan, it's listen, it's always, this is the first, is this the first podcast you and I have done solo? Solo. Um, I feel like we did one, but it was like years ago about digital missionaries. I think. Okay, okay, maybe we maybe we will scrape the archives to find out the, well, I'm surprised I'm surprised uh Whitebeard hasn't, no, yes, episode 32 or whatever. Like I I know. Um, yeah, you know what, I I probably, well, it was either you and Tyler or maybe you solo. I I don't remember. But I do remember talking about that back in the day. But uh, it's man, it's great to had you recently talking about mental health and grief and a couple other situations and uh looking forward to seeing in this Learning Community come through fruition. But uh, as we are landing the plane here, any closing thoughts on your side?

I mean, the biggest thing is like I just want to share the knowledge that I've learned to be able to help other people. Um, we've done mental health ministry here for a while at the church. And so being able to share that um with others, some trial and error happened, we found some things that work, some things that don't work. So if we can help you, if I can help you at all of some things that maybe won't work very well or that might be a little more struggle, um, that's something I would love to be able to do. And that's, I mean, it's my passion as I think it's one of my heartbeats of just helping people um in this area and just uh being an advocate for that.

Yeah, awesome. And so really looking forward to to seeing that that come to fruition and honestly helping more churches even past this Learning Community address this. And you're going to be seeing and hearing more of Megan uh through the church digital in in the months to come. So cool. I keep getting text messages. I think my kids are outside. They left their at home and they're trying to get in the house. And I mean, that's not my fault because, dude, like you, I tell my kids all the time, own your crap. Like you got to get in the house, take keys with you. Don't don't don't get mad at me. I'm I'm just saying like I'm not, I'm your dad. I'm not. Anyway, I'm sorry. I'm like, we have print ones. Yeah, it's awesome. We may, I have, yeah, I've got this. I wish I would love a Bluetooth lock, like you know, app. But uh, we've got these like hurricane-proof doors that only certain lock goes on and they don't make the Bluetooth to fit that. And like I just, whatever. So this is, you know, we're going into extra, extra in here with the church digital podcast. So we're going to land the plane on the recording. Check out the church.digital/lc for more information on the learning community. And uh, hey, for to Pastor D, Whitebeard, Melanie, uh, everybody else, Simon, uh, Andy was hanging around, uh, in Chuku. Um, every, I'm just scrolling through real quick. Uh, anybody else that was hanging out with us today? It was awesome. Uh, FL, uh, flat, uh, flat cap as well. So thanks for hanging out with us. We're going to wrap up. So for uh for Megan, this is Jeff with the church digital. Thanks for hanging out with us in the show. We'll see you next time on the pod. Have a good one.