EP309 - Digital & Mental Health - Shame vs Guilt with Chris Caputo

I think it's having a little bit of a baseline brain science understanding of the human mind, how it works with emotions, can really equip us to learn not to avoid them. When in fact, if we do avoid them, we could lead that—that'll lead us to deep trouble down the road. God gave them to us, and if we didn't have them, we wouldn't survive.

Welcome to the Church Digital podcast. Through this podcast, we'll talk about the technological innovations within the church, but more than tech for tech's sake, we'll address deeper questions. Is discipleship making possible digitally? How should we approach the digital mission field? Can a biblically grounded church operate in digital space? And where does the metaverse and artificial intelligence fit into all of this? Whether you're a big or small church, the Church Digital's goal is to help churches like yours learn to be a multiplying church digitally and physically. And now here's your host, Jeff Reed.

Everybody, we are live on Twitch. We're live streaming this, the Church Digital podcast. I'm going to go out on a limb and assume this is episode 309. If Whitebeard is in the room, somebody can fact check me. I appreciate that. Pretty sure this is 309 here at the Church Digital podcast. We're in a season here talking about digital and mental health. It's been a great season so far, really digging into some interesting, introspective, self-reflective topics, getting into some material, focusing last week. We actually—I was listening to it this morning. I was stuck in traffic for like two hours, was listening to Megan Carter and Andy Mage and I last week talking about inner critic. And I said on the podcast recording, "I hate to listen to the sound of my own voice," and sure enough, after listening to an hour of myself talking about inner critic, I do in fact hate listening to the sound of my own voice. So I just wanted to share that. And you know, I almost did it there. I also noticed I say "um" and "uh" way too much when I'm having these podcast conversations. And so my inner critic is calling shame on myself for that. And so now I'm wanting to be better focused on not being that guy and trying to be better focused on—um, there again. Dang it. All right, I gotta stop this. But hey, I'm looking forward to this conversation today. We're gonna get to the guest here in a little bit, but Megan, thanks for coming back, co-host in here this season. Appreciate you again on that.

Yeah, no, I love it. I'm so excited. And today is not an easy topic, but I think it's a really important one.

Yeah, I almost want to give you credit up top here and give you an opportunity to dig into this because, you know, we've said this in the podcast, Megan is really the brainchild on the season. I just said to Megan, "Hey, Megan, I want to talk about mental health and digital ministry." She came from First Capital Christian Church. She's got digital ministry background. She understands this stuff. You know, Tyler's got a great ecosystem up there with his church, and Megan also is working through the mental health aspects and is really passionate about some of this stuff. And so it's well spoken. She's done "From Text to Testimony" and has her own podcast that deals into this. And it's like, you know, I really want to involve Megan in this project as we're trying to figure out how to better equip our digital missionaries to speak into the space. But I asked Megan, I was like, "Hey, come up with some topics." And this topic this round, I'll be honest, I was like, "Huh, I never thought that. Like, I didn't see this one coming." Inner critic, I understood a lot of the other ones. Like, yeah, I understand how that fits. But these two—like, this was off topic for me. This was, let me dig deep. And so Megan, I'd love for you to maybe take a minute, set up the topic, and why this is so important for us to deal with.

Yeah, and you know, shame versus guilt is such—I don't know, we like to use those words interchangeably, and that's where we get into an issue is that they have different implications. There's different kind of definitions, even though we get the same emotional feeling from them. So that's why I think it's so important to talk about because, you know, I heard it said once before and it's stuck with me ever since: just, you know, guilt is something that we've done, so something we've, you know, done, and that we maybe should have a little guilt for. But shame is we perceive of who we are. And so it's really an identity piece. And I think that, you know, you can look at culturally, you can look at through the church culture, um, just in our world around us, that those things have been really just—I know taken wrong. Um, where we've put shame where guilt should be, or guilt where we've, you know, threw shame in there. And so I think dividing those and really figuring out the difference between is so important. And especially when you're talking to people digitally and online, there's a lot of people who are dealing with shame, but they feel like it's guilt. And so being able to decipher that for them and talk through that is so important. And that can be like a game changer for them when you can really change those things and how they are perceived.

Yeah, I love that. Looking forward to getting into the topic at a deeper level. And as I looked at this, and it's interesting, I'm not even sure why this name resonated so much with me as I was looking at this shame versus guilt one. Um, but the guy that really came to mind for me is the guest that we've got here on the show today, Chris Caputo. Now, if you've been with the Church Digital for a while, or even back in the DCN, Digital Church Network days, you may remember Chris. Chris, did you actually have a title? Like, was it spiritual? I was trying to think. I mean, you were like the guru of Digital Church Network. At one point I was referring you to be like my spiritual director or the spiritual director of DCN. Like, what were you? Do you remember? Was there actually a label? Did we put on you? Did we figure that out?

No, I think I was more of your spiritual director. And I mean, we put it out there, we put it out there. But yeah.

So yeah, yeah. Chris was almost like the—um, man, I don't remember the guy's name from Lord of the Rings, but there was like the king, and then there was this—is going to be a horrible analogy, Chris. I'm sorry for what I'm about to say. There was like the king, the human king, the man king that was in charge of one of the kingdoms, and then there was like the evil wizard who was like whispering over the king's shoulder saying, "Do this or don't do this," who was really manipulating the king in the evil way. And then eventually, like the White Knight Gandalf cast broke the spell. Like, okay, take all the evil manipulative stuff out of what I just said. But that was really Chris. Like, we just had this really great, you know, relationship where a lot of the strengths that I had were great, but a lot of the weaknesses, a lot of the relationships, a lot of the way that he viewed things—Chris viewed things was kind of very complimentary to that. And you know, talking about blind spots, like Chris was really kind of a go-to for me in that season as we were trying to get what was Digital Church Network, now the Church Digital, really started in that season. And so as we're talking about here, working through this topic of shame versus guilt, I for some reason, it was like, "Chris, will you come do this podcast with us to really dig into that?" I don't know, Chris. Like, is there anything? Does that kind of resonate with you at a level, shame versus guilt? Like, what are your thoughts just even walking in on that?

Yeah, that's a very big—for the nonprofit work that we do in our ministry, learning how to roll with shame. Um, there's a lot of misconception and confusion out there about how it's actually—we actually say this is the make or break with establishing an emotionally healthy Christian community, how that community actually handles when shame comes up into a situation or how do we work through that particular. Because a lot of the teaching is that we just put it on the cross. It's partially true, partially not true. The way we kind of handle that, using the latest in what I'll say the best practices of neural brain science and theology, and how to really navigate negative emotions, which really aren't a bad thing—they actually are very helpful—we'll unpack all that. So you know, instead of avoiding them or doing other unhealthy things, how do we steward it well? That actually brings deeper transformation individually and corporately when we learn to deal with shame. So that's a little teaser as we get going here from our perspective.

Very cool. Uh, Megan, kick it off. What are you thinking here? What do we need to dig into with the shame versus guilt?

Well, I want to just dig into what you just said, Chris, because I love what you just said. I talk to people so many times about how all our emotions are not just negative where we want to view it that way. So I would like to dig into that just a little bit where, you know, we have this idea in our heads that have been put there by some somehow that all emotions are negative. I mean, you see that like if you're sitting in like a meeting and someone is crying because, whether they're like, for me, I cry when I'm frustrated. Like, if they're frustrated or if they're sad or any kind of emotion, but it's viewed as like negative because the first thing that comes out of their mouth is like, "Oh, I'm so sorry I'm crying," and I'm like, "Oh, please don't apologize." So I would love to just kind of dive into that like, what should we view like emotions as?

Yeah, I refer to them as warning lights, dashboard indicators. When there are big emotions that can be perceived as negative, so as a baby, if you—a mother watching this on this podcast—when you see your baby, is it like, is my child sad? Are they hungry? Are they angry at something? Are they scared? And the mother learns to hear because the child can't use words. Only thing child has is emotions as a warning to be like, "Hey, I need something," or "Something's being trespassed against me." Ah, it becomes a violation of some sort. That the emotions in our soul that God designed becomes a warning light. It's like, "Hey, anger, this needs to stop." That's all it means. So I think it's having a little bit of baseline brain science understanding of the human mind, how it works with emotions, can really equip us to learn not to avoid them. When in fact, if we do avoid them, we could lead that—that'll lead us to deep trouble down the road. God gave them to us, and if we didn't have them, we wouldn't survive. So we could just start there as far as emotions go, you know?

Right. But if you guys, that movie Inside Out, that is a wonderful case study where Joy is actually the center of all of it. We're supposed to be living from Joy, which is a whole other topic. But the negative emotions wrap around Joy. We're supposed to return back to Joy from all the negative emotions—perceive negative emotions. That's really how the brain is designed to function in a holistic, whole, healthy way.

Yeah, I love that. I love the movie. It's great, and the second one's I think even better. So if you haven't watched those, plug—you should watch them because it helps you understand those emotions. But I think it ties in with what we're just talking about. All our emotions we have, these emotions that come out that feel negative, and that's whenever it comes down to that shame and guilt and how do we, you know, decipher between the two. So I guess my question would be like, what is the first thing you think of whenever we say—

Those like shame versus guilt. Like when you were first introduced about doing this podcast, what was like your initial reactions? What did you think about that?

Yeah, I thought it was a great question, Megan, because there's a lot of confusion. And I think you actually nailed it on the head at the opening that guilt has to do with guilty, you know, like in a court of law you're innocent or guilty. Hey, you know what? If I'm going 75 and it says 55 on the sign, officer, I'm so sorry I didn't realize. Well, sir, here's your ticket. You broke the law. You're guilty. However, I'm not condemned to a prison camp for the rest of my life of condemnation just because I'm guilty of something. That's where it kind of can spin out with guilt. The end of the line is the sentencing of the crime that's been committed is where we can get into trouble.

Now shame is a different ball of wax because shame actually—God, and there's some we'll maybe get to it later on in the broadcast—there's scriptural basis that actually Paul utilizes this element of shame as well in the ministry when he writes to the churches. It's actually in there. And it's a little bit tricky if you don't have a good attachment with someone that you're close to. Shame is nothing more than—in my world we want to use language—it means you're not bringing me joy right now. You've done something, you maybe are guilty of an infraction, but the response from the person is, hey, that's not okay. What you just did right now, that hurts me, offends me, it makes me angry. Something you did, it just violates, it trespassed on me, and I'm going to let you know it. And the response that I feel is I want to put some branches and some fig leaves over my face. I want to hide and I want to run away. And I want to be like, ah, that's not good for us, Megan.

It becomes toxic when I'm alone in it. And over time, when I run shame tape all the way through, it means I am that behavior. That's not true. I am this, but what I did was not okay. And we need to separate the two. Where it becomes an identity thing, where toxic shame means I am the result of that action that I took, and I've been told as such by people. Like, it's like when I grew up, when I did something, Chris, go to your room. Go think about it. That's the worst thing that we can never do as parents is put our children in a dark room so they can scream and cry and figure out by their own brains how they kind of did what they did and come talk to me about it. When we need to be with them in it, we need to say, hey, you weren't acting like yourself in that moment. I'm not happy with what happened. I'm disappointed, and I want you to feel this with me. But you are not that. You are my son. You are my daughter. I love you, but this is not okay. These actions right here are not okay, and you need to feel that sting of that shame. That's healthy. That actually brings character correction. But anyway, that's a whole big—I just dropped an atomic bomb on you. We can go home now for the rest of the podcast. So anyway, just let that sit out there.

Yeah, let me just to follow up. I mean, you said the word toxic shame, and that was interesting to me. Like that just like opened up a whole other section of my brain. What is the point that shame becomes toxic? Like, what is—I guess healthy shame versus unhealthy shame versus, you know, I mean, toxic opens up a whole other level to me. So maybe walk through some of that for us.

The process? Yes. So if I do something, let's say I get angry and I have an outburst and I, you know, hurt somebody and I didn't do something loving in that moment, but if I'm left alone to process that, the conclusion that my brain will conclude is that I'm not lovable because I do those things. The truth is, no, I had a bad moment right there. That I wasn't acting like myself and I reacted, and that's not okay and that needs to be fixed. I got to work on that.

So it becomes toxic: A, when we're alone in it. Okay? B, when we start to equate our identity to those actions and they become married. That's when it becomes toxic. That's what Jesus nailed on the cross was the toxic shame. We are not sinners. We are saved by grace. We are a child of the king who happens to struggle and walk out some things sinfully. We still have—we still live here. We malfunction from time to time, and that doesn't make us bad people. It just means we have some things that don't bring joy that actually bring shame to our own, to us and to other people by the way we behaved.

So does that—is that helpful? Or do I need to kind of come at it from another direction?

I think so. Like, it's like the—it's unresolved. It's where the toxicity is where it lingers on. It becomes part of the identity of this, I guess, is kind of what I'm hearing when you define who you are by the shame that you're feeling. I, you know, I guess that's where the toxicity lingers part of me. And then this may be like I'm trying to marry two ideas together that shouldn't. I'm even wondering back to the inner critic where that we talked about last week where we're constantly, you know, judging ourselves based on our past mistakes. If that's not even like a superficial level of shame, which grows into this, you know, potential toxicity level. Like, I didn't think those two levels were related, but now that we're talking about it, it feels like it's almost the same thing. Am I seeing that right?

Yeah. So even when you started off, let's go back to your earlier comment about saying ums and ahs. Yeah, I mean, like, it's like having someone be with you, be like, you know what, Jeff? I'm so glad to be with you. I know you got those little fall paws. I know you got those little, you know, and you want to improve your craft and you beat yourself up. But you know what, bro? I love you, like, whether you do that or not. I'm with you in it. What do you need for me to walk with you to trigger you not to do that anymore? How can I help you? And be with you when you feel like the inner critic, when you feel like you've done this and that. That is a healthy model of us being with you even though you feel the shame and conviction of that. That needs the change. It's you have someone with you in it that's glad to be with you with a joyful face, with a joyful voice, and can just presence with you in that. And then is together with you to walk through the correction. That instead of you trying to gut it out, oh, I did it again, and rinse and repeat, and I'm guilting myself and blah blah blah and condemnation, bro, it's okay. I'm—but then it gets harder when if you do that to me personally and we have a rupture of some sort, how do I practice healthy shaming you to say, hey, look, that wasn't okay. What you did, bro? I love you, but I'm still attached to you. I'm in this with you. I'm going to walk with you. What do you—how can I help that? That's got to stop. That stuff's got to stop because it violates. It's not okay.

Okay, I'll pause and let that sit there. We're counseling in real time right, buddy? We're just—I love it. It's great in a public environment. It's just open. Let's just let it roll.

No, I love it. This is so good.

Yeah, yeah. No, I think another piece that plays into shame going so toxic is environmental factors around you, culture you grew up in. I—this might sound silly, but I love Disney. So this is where I go. But you know, like in Mulan where they're like, shame on you and shame on your cow, like because she's not following what she's supposed to be doing. Shame on everything around her. And I think that even though that may sound silly, that sometimes that's how it feels like if you've grown up in that kind of culture. And you know, we're talking about people in the digital space. It's not just this small group. Like, we're hitting so many different cultures that people are reaching out to and trying to minister to. And so this is such a heavy thing, especially in other cultures that it's been pushed on them, and they don't—you don't know anything different. When you grow up in that where you don't realize that that toxic level of shame is so negative and that is not the way that God intended us to feel like when we have done something wrong and we need to, you know, ask for forgiveness or something like that. So I would love to just hear kind of your insight into that as people who might be listening are trying to reach people who are, you know, grew up in a culture with that environment around them where shame was so heavily, you know, a presence there. That's a great question.

I would say this is a topic that doesn't even get addressed and dealt with. When it comes—I mean, you want to be loving, validating, encouraging, supporting, edifying as long as possible till a healthy attachment is established. That's like first and foremost. Because think about when we first—at least for me, when I came to Christ, it's like I was on a pink cloud of faith and I was a hot mess express that I didn't get conviction on yet because I wasn't—didn't know what I didn't know. And the Lord built that relationship with me in the beginning. Later on, conviction came where I was able to really feel that the guilt of what I did, but also how I wasn't bringing joy to the Father. I wasn't in alignment with what he wanted. His best for me. And he was ready to have that conversation with me at the perfect time. He does that perfectly. I don't—we don't. He does. But the more we practice, Megan, the better we can get at this.

So I'll give you an example. So let's shoot for the high bar from a Christian, per kingdom, biblical perspective. First Corinthians 6. There's a story about they're suing each other in the Gentile Church in the Church of Corinth, and they're taking each other to an unjust judge and a gentile court system. And the way we start in a healthy ecosystem and context to deal with this issue of shame, it's like, hey, wait a minute. Who are we as a people? Let's have our identity statements first. We are a people of the kingdom that don't dispute one another in this way. We settle our matters. We're people of reconciliation. That's who we are. Therefore, we don't do these things. We don't take people to court.

So in verse four, here's what he says, here, Megan. It says, therefore, if you have disputes about such matters, do you ask for a ruling from those whose way of life is scorned in the church? I say this to shame you. Paul, what are you doing? Shaming the Corinthian Church? He does it in three other places. That same word is used. There's a couple other stories in the Bible where he actually, as a father over that church who he birthed—you have many teachers, but you don't have many fathers because I love you. I love you. I want the best for you. Hey, guys, you're not acting like yourself in this situation. So I'm giving the big overarching, hairy, audacious goal is to establish identity, healthy identity statements. This is who we are as a people. Therefore, we don't do these things. And the code becomes the healthy culture.

Now, shame in cultures that are shame-based, you have to love people for a while to establish that relationship of trust to then move them into a kingdom context where they can actually start to embrace, understand who God is through his scriptures. That God is this way. Therefore, we are this way. And therefore, we don't do these things. And we're going to love you back to you. And if you get off center, that's okay. We'll correct you. But this thing is not bringing joy to God's people or to him. And that's okay because you don't know what you don't know, or maybe you do. That's okay. But we're glad to be with you. We love you because we want to see you fully develop into who God's made you to be. And there's some things that are not okay, and we got to talk about that. And shame is the road map to correction to character.

Transformation, okay, there you go. So we went from Mulan—was it Mulan? We were starting with why. We went from Disney back to the kingdom back to Mulan. So, you know, crazier things have happened. That's right.

Oh hey, one more thing I want to say about that word. It's called in trope. It's in the Greek. If you studied the word, just do a Google search: New Testament, Paul, and shame. That word actually has a double edge to it. So you're back to your Mulan example. It actually, in trope, in the positive means honor. It's almost like a military term. When people go to boot camp and they're in the Marines, the Marine Corps has the code and we all do what the code says because it brings honor and keeps safe with one another. When you break the code, that shame you're bringing shame upon your unit, upon your battalion by how some of the soldiers may not do what they're supposed to do according to the code.

So that's kind of the biblical context of when Paul's shaming, bringing shame to the equation. It's like, hey, you guys are living outside of God's camp here. This is not who we are as a people. We gotta—we got to correct this. This is not okay. Like, a final example is when you got someone, stepson having sex with his stepmother. It's like, hey, that's who the Gentile—that's who the Gentiles are. Not even the Gentiles do that kind of stuff. We can't be okay with accepting that kind of behavior as God's people. That's not okay. And shame is the antidote to help be a shock to the system to be like, oh yeah, okay, thanks for telling me that. So then we can correct.

Okay, yeah. So it's a big—I mean, it should be used as a growing like stepping stone, right? And how to grow into being a better person, being a better disciple. Um, and so I would love to just learn like, what have you learned? Um, maybe throughout your experiences, any personal or just things you've walked other people through, but when the growth has happened and then maybe when growth hasn't happened—where both sides of those can take you.

So this is a huge issue I work with with a lot of men, and starting with the chief of all being shamers or being shamed. My life growing up, um, I had a very difficult childhood and I was, uh, there was a lot of things that happened that I was toxically shamed. Let's just put it that way. And, um, it really kept me stuck. It really kept me from being the spouse to my wife that I needed to be in some areas because I was still a child in a lot of ways. And I would do my best to love my wife in certain areas that she's having me to try and do it, but it wasn't good enough for her because she's had such a lack in some of those areas for such a long time.

The key, Megan, for me was that I had other men who began to understand some of these principles that can help father me, to be strength for me when I disappointed and brought shame to my wife for the lack of the stuff that she needed. And she tries to tell me and I just don't know how to get there, and with what little steps I take wasn't good enough. You know what would happen? Shame would come up and it would stunt me and I'd stop trying.

So this is a—I don't know—probably every guy in this call, if you're, you have somewhat of an idea, and a wife understands too because husbands, wives are not mandated by the Bible to love their husbands. They know how to do that really well. Paul has to tell the men, hey, love your wives, man. I already know how weak you are in that. And when you have shame, especially toxic shame running through you, I needed other men to be strength for me. And that's what we teach in our ministry in Hesed Discipleship Network is how do you help men's hearts to be okay to be a mess in this area, to not do it well, to fail, and to have the glad face of other people with you in the moment that you're trying? And we're plotting it's like, you're in the game, bro. This is amazing. Keep going. Failure is the way of success, and failure is not a bad thing. We say in business, even you got to fail X amount of times to have a success. Well, the same thing goes true in relationships. And with shame, it's the same principle. But the problem is we're on our own as men, especially to figure that out. That's where it gets really scary, and the enemy gets in there and he starts to beat us up, and then we just end up blowing up or blowing out and, uh, we stay stuck in toxic shame.

So that's a personal example for me is I fell short so many times of my wife because I wasn't given the tools to be a good husband to her. That shame pushed me forward into deeper growth, but I needed men with me that had the glad faces with me to say, we love you, we're with you in this. What do you need from us? And they, and they, they rose up and joined me on that journey.

Go. That seems to be a consistent theme that we've been talking about each week. You know, even DJ Chong, week one, removing the stigma, talk about it with others. I've talked about, you know, even my story within the past year of how, you know, there was a season earlier this year where I was going through depression, and even just saying the words to Andy Mage, hey, I'm depressed, you need to know that, really removed 70, 80 percent of that stigma. Andy talked last week about some of the things he was going through with his inner critic and how sharing it with his wife and really just spilling the can of worms everywhere and letting her, you know, soak it in early on in their marriage really removed some of that power.

And so like, as we look at, you know, shame, is there really that much like, what is it about talking with people that removes that, removes the power from it? Is it just sharing the ideas or like, is it helping find joy? Like, what is it within that relationship among other guys or other people building on that? What are you feeling, Chris?

It's the faces. It's the mirroring back, Jeff. When you were young, the inner start with Jeff creating the inner critic, you know, where that happened was because what was reflected back to you is the mind imprints that. And then if we receive critical looks, critical comments, then we begin to embody that. So the way to override that is new wiring of new faces that are glad to be with you when you fail. Because then you know what? Then you start to smile and laugh when you fail. It's like, oh, it's okay for me, and I'm not going to criticize myself anymore. And it takes the strength of other people who know how to overcome in the areas where you're weak that you can model them. Follow me as I follow Christ. It's like, oh, I'm gonna act like Chris does. But if I had my father mirrored back to me disgust or the blank stare of anger and rage, or he would just say, get out of my face, just get out of my face, and he turned his head like this, turn his back on me, so what was the message as a young boy? I needed to perform. I needed to criticize myself to get to what I needed so he'd be glad to be—glad to be when I'm performing. He's glad to be with me. So that's the key, Jeff. It's not the inner discovery, the talking. You know, Megan, we work with clients, they, they, you know, and we're glad to be with them, but it's really rewiring the brain in community with men or with women, if you're with women, to have the glad face in those areas, to learn how to practice, to remap new pathways, new neural pathways to joy, and learn how to act when I feel like I'm ashamed. How does Chris do shame? That guy does it pretty well, man. I want, I want to follow him. I want to copy how he does it. And then after a couple months of practice, you start to rewire it.

One thing that I think we don't always realize is like, whatever situation we're going through, like, you know, you and I have done some research into the brain, like we can rewire it. Those neural pathways can be redirected. It's not you're not gone like a lost cause. No matter what your situation is, you can redirect that. And so that's such an encouraging thing and hope that we can cling to, that that can be, you know, redirected for us. And I see it all the time. Um, you know, we live in social media world, right? Or right here on Twitch and all the different things and this podcast, and we see people that go to that, um, maybe when they do feel shame or they go to that, and then they do feel shame after going to social media. Um, what kind of impact do you have you seen in people that social media has played, maybe positive or negative?

Yeah, I think, uh, it's brought some positive, but I think it's amplified some of the things where in real life relationships we haven't done some well. So it amplifies that too. Um, it could create more of an avatar to hide behind when you know, uh, I, and I've told Jeff, and you know, for years, brother, we've gone back and forth on this. I would love to see all of us as digital pastors have an on-the-ground reality of what I'm talking about, even if it's just a few friends. You know, and then to be able to have that capacity to launch from the ground to go up in the air into the digital space to be able to transfer. Because I'll tell you what, I lead a ministry of trying to create emotionally healthy communities within the Christian world, and doing it digitally, it's hard. And I've been doing this for years on the ground to try and translate that into a digital space. It takes a lot of time and practice and maturity and skill to know how to navigate the nuances of a digital, of a two-dimensional screen.

I'm all about digital church. I'm all about this thing, but we must, as Mr. Miyagi once said, first learn stand, then learn fly. Okay? Karate for defense only. And, uh, then we learn how to punch. So we got to learn to keep our hearts really strong, especially if you're pastors, digital leaders. Your emotional health needs to be primary, especially in on-the-ground ministry. Needs to be primary, but even double down more so for those in the digital space because the enemy does not like this ministry, doubly so because you're invading his territory up in the satellite airwaves there. So I just, I'll leave that out there for us to consider a little bit. What do you think, Megan?

No, I think that's so important because I, we said this before, you know, talking to somebody is so important. So having those people you can, you know, your go-to few, like you're right or die, having those people you can talk to about anything and you don't feel judgment is going to help you minister to those that are hurting. And there are so many hurting people out there. And so being able to just sit across from someone else, whether it's on a screen or in a message, and just listen—not just trying to fix their problem, not trying to solve their problem, just listening—because I feel like that's what a lot of people need. Um, especially when it comes to people feeling shame, um, and especially that toxic side of shame. Like, they just need somebody to listen and not feel like they're being judged and not feel like you're going to turn around and be like, oh my gosh, I can't believe what this person just said. Like, they want that trust to be built, like you were talking about earlier. And so that's so important to continue that conversation with other people as you have your own people to be able to have that conversation with for your personal self too.

Amen. And that's a critical skill we train on is how to do that well, how to presence with people, not fix, but just be with them. We call it validation—to see them, to hear them, and to understand them in their language. That's their truth. Does it mean it's the gospel truth? It doesn't matter if I agree or disagree. Let people vomit and have the space to learn how to express themselves. And then pick up the vomit. This is going to sound weird, but to pick up the vomit and put it back in them again. I know that was gross, like a dog eating the vomit, but that's how you build what—

We call capacity is that you feel comfortable. That's the number one trauma I was told by a trauma therapist in Kansas City I highly respect. She runs what's called the Trauma Healing Center in Kansas City, Melissa Finger. She did a training for us at the CASC Underground. She said the number one cause of church hurt is when people just can't be heard or listened to. That's the number one thing. That backs up everything else is that they don't feel safe to come out with their problems without feeling judged, corrected, prayed over, fixed, quoted scripture at. Like, nobody wants that, at least on the front end, especially when they have big emotions. They need a safe, tender presence to help bring quieting to the big emotions that are happening. And if we don't know how to validate well, we're never going to have emotionally healthy Christian community. And I will stand by that statement till the day I die.

All right, so let me pull the thread on this one. So we need to validate. You're telling me validate. To literally pick up the dog vomit and put it back in the dog. Like, I mean, at some level I'm not staying clean as a pastor minister. I'm getting down and dirty into this situation. And so I'm not standing behind a pulpit preaching. I'm in the life of this person. Secondhand trauma is a thing. How do we validate? How do we affirm without getting burned? Without getting carried the weight? Without getting pulled down into those struggles? I mean, because we don't want to do that, but we want to protect ourselves. But at the same time we need to validate, which means we need to get down. How? Give us some practical advice here.

It's a skill called self-care. You deal with secondhand trauma by self-caring for yourself and getting what you need to refill and to get that thing worked out. Otherwise, if you let secondhand trauma become your primary trauma, you're going to get taken out. It's that. And us as counselors, Megan will back me up on this. We deal. It's called countertransference in the professional world. We've got to learn not to vomit our own things and opinions on people because we get triggered. So validation is not about me. It's about that other person, being with them in it and their truth. They need. And here's what will happen, Jee. The more we're able to do that, we become a gentle protector of people's hearts. They give us more of their hearts, and they'll actually start listening to your counsel when it's time to get to the solutions. They'll actually start doing it.

So I say stretch the gap of validation to be with people. If you have low capacity for it, then who are your people that are around you that are pouring into you on the ground? Not digitally, on the ground, where you live, because that's your home base. Jesus had Peter, James, and John as his three best friends. The Lord himself needed those three guys to refresh him, to pray for him, to go to the top of the mountain, into the Garden of Gethsemane. Jesus himself. Think about that, gang. Jesus moves in concentric circles of leadership. He had those three who were Paul refers to as the foundation in the book of Galatians. So who are your three? Or two, at least have two. Three total would be my response to that with secondhand trauma, Jee.

Sorry, I would also add like, know yourself enough. Like, if you have such a helper mentality and that's what God has gifted you with, like you want to be able to help them, but also like in doing that a lot of times you try to take on what they're feeling, and that's where it goes. So have that and be able to set up boundaries where you bring yourself back to reality. Be like, okay, this is their situation. I want to be there for them as much as I can. I want to help them in any way possible, but I have to also realize I can't. I can't do it. I can't change what's happening in their life. And so when you can put that boundary in place and put that reality, ground yourself a little bit, that can help. And when you know yourself and know how you respond to those things, that makes a big difference because there's going to be some people that they can care for people, but that's not going to be as big of a struggle because their personalities don't lean towards that. And that's the power of team, right? Is having those people where you're weak, you have other people have strength in those areas. You can have them help you bear the load.

That's excellent. That's a great point. So good. We're actually in the process of building in, you know, even talking about the counterbalance of the strengths and weaknesses. Yeah, I know you're a big APEST guy, Chris. We've really been beating in the idea of APEST. We had Allan Hirsch actually was episode 300 and pitched that idea of APEST in digital context. And some of the digital planters and missionaries really been struggling with that. And we're some digital missiology curriculum starting to unpack that even bigger, which really complements that idea of creating a well-balanced not only team but even empowering individuals to find their strengths and weaknesses and ministering in that. So that's a good parallel.

Yeah, that's for us that is the number one strategy to find unity and maturity in Ephesians 4. It's like we talk about APEST, but what is it unto? Read the rest of Ephesians 4. It's so we don't get tossed to and fro. So we have the fullness of maturity, the fullness of love for one another happens through the five expressions of Christ coming together in a unified way where they honor and prefer each other and the gifts that everybody carries. If you have a culture like that, it's really hard to stop the kingdom from advancing powerfully as your team.

So I would love to hear you bringing it back to shame and guilt just a little bit. Is what a piece of advice you would give somebody? Obviously we talked about talking about it, finding your people, but if maybe somebody doesn't have those people right now, what is a piece of advice that can help someone that's dealing with maybe this toxic shame in their own life?

Well, that's a great commercial, Megan, for our training. We have a four-week healing learning community where we train on those things that's for free. Don't cost you a dime. It just costs you four hours over four weeks and then free ongoing coaching after that. But to answer your question more directly, I think it's something that you should get studied up on shame and really understand the impacts and the toxicity of it and understand that that is from the Garden of Eden. That is a source of character correction. And actually it actually brings deeper bonding, believe it or not, when there's, you know, when you get restored, it builds such trust and currency in relationships that the repair from shame is one of the most powerful glues, especially on your team in ministry when you're working with people.

If you're on your own, I would say stop being on your own. Really reevaluate that. I mean, get going, get started. I get it. Don't quit. Don't stop what you're doing, but always think ahead. The listen, the kingdom itself, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, is a trinity, is a three-space. The whole kingdom of God is not run by one of them. It's run by all three of them. So you need to, we need to really understand and evaluate. We don't want to become the lone rangers that become the weird strangers in ministry. We don't want to do that because that's what will happen. We're not built to be out by ourselves in this. That's your first thing is be intentional to have people in your life that can love you without being the minister and the pastor. B, you have a team where you can develop those healthy skills to learn how to navigate shameful things that are going to come up because people are going to malfunction. It's going to happen. So get trained and don't be alone. That would be my first two key pointers on that.

If you're out there by yourself trying to think through, because I mean, you've hit on so many good things, it's like I'm like, where do I go from here? No, you have hit on so many good things, and I love just your heart behind it and that you see the whole person. And that's something we've talked about throughout all these episodes in this season is like looking at the whole person. And that's the way God intended it. He intended us to be a whole person. And I think we've forgot that somewhere along the way. So bringing that back and working towards finding that whole person again and being healthy in that is a huge piece. And I love your take on self-care because that's one that we put to the side, maybe even as Christians or people in ministry. We talked about this before, I think too, is that we get so heavily invested in doing things and feel like we have to be on call 24/7. And then if we're not, we may start feeling some of that toxic shame of, well, what if something happens? What if this? We start playing the what-if game. And so that can be so just so hard when it comes to that. So I think it's a really good reminder to bring ourselves back to take care of ourselves so that we can in turn help other people through different life situations.

I would say the book called The Other Half of Church written by Jim Wilder and Michael Hendricks is needs to be in all of our libraries. I can't say enough about that book. It goes into chapters on shame. It's epic the way it's, I've done my best to do what they say in that book, but also how to cultivate the ingredients to a healthy Christian community expression are laid out in that book. I would suggest that go ahead.

Jeff, totally and completely recommend that book. We've read it. We've taught it. I've actually talked with the authors about it. It's interesting. They don't, they actually are not a big fan of digital sales, social media, and social media is awful. They're not wrong. But you know, their view of community is among some of the digital pastors that we work with like is challenging us on how we're defining digital community. Like they're setting the standards at some level, and they're talking about in physical context that we're leaning into digitally. And so I, you know, I Chris made that recommendation of a book for me maybe two or three years ago, and I can't, I can't tell you how many times I've brought that up in conversations and conferences and things like that. So very good.

Hey, I wanted to, I wanted to flex on something. I ask a question. It's on my mind. I'm just trying to take all of this and spin it into a practical environment, right? And so as what I'm understanding is part of what we're trying to do is as ministers, as pastors, that are going, people that are going through guilt and to prevent from toxic shame, is we're putting on a smile, we're reflecting love, we're jumping down and validating and affirming them in that, and through joy pulling them back out. At some level, what we're doing though is could be causing guilt. Like they can be reflective, too reflective in what they're doing, and they can be taking a simple word with the inner critic to a much deeper level. Like we could be saying X and they're going all the way to Z, and which, you know, paints it into a difficult environment. How do we, you know, especially digitally, things get lost in context. True meaning it's text. You know, they're not seeing body actions in physical space. Sometimes it's hard to read emotions. How do we keep ourselves in check? How do we keep the other person in check so that what we're saying isn't misunderstood or misconstrued?

And taken to a darker level, like we don't want to drive people into toxicity level. But sometimes our words do need to carry weight to help them understand what they need to do is wrong and getting out of that. How do we? Where's the line of healthy and unhealthy? Not for us, but for the people we're doing ministry with?

I think we need to start with the word of God. I'll give you three verses. If you're especially my theologian brothers on this call right now, I want you to wrestle with God on this. That's the first thing because we've got to land theologically in a place that's healthy because then health will outflow from that. First Corinthians 6:5, Second Thessalonians 3:14, and Titus 2:8. It's the same word. And to really biblically, it's like Paul is using that sword in a very strategic way with his people.

And the first thing though I would say, Jeff, is that we need to—how to build healthy attachments with one another is the primary focus. Salvation with God is healthy attachment because we're not going to hell, we're going to heaven, getting pulled up with him with Jesus and Father and Holy Spirit. We also must have healthy attachments with one another, okay? When we're not acting like ourselves, we've got to have a healthy correction protocol. And if you can tell me another way around shame to do it, I'm open to it. But it's done in a way where it's relational, it's connected, it's identity-based where we are people who are this. You are not that behavior. You're loving people, encouraging them, being strong for them.

I know this may not—this sounds a little airy-fairy and like, what is this guy talking about? Well, I'm starting with the scriptures. I'm starting with how Paul did it, okay? So we need to wrestle with these words. We need to have language. We've got to learn how to say: actually, shame is healthy. Toxic shame needs to go on the cross. Absolutely, hallelujah, because we're not alone anymore in those feelings. But in a community context, shame is the most powerful antidote to transformation and health in a community. You either can buy that or not. Go take it out with Paul and then go to the Father and then get upset with him and say, "Lord, I don't like this," and he's going to go, "I love you. I keep coming. Come on, more answers are going to come."

So we need revelation, Jeff. We need understanding. We need a reset of our paradigms. If we don't believe in—if what I'm telling you, you don't believe it, that's okay. I love you. I'm glad to be with you. But I had to wrestle with this too because shame almost—I almost killed myself. I was suicidal for years until the Lord came and then I got more understanding of this. Now I'm actually embracing it. I'm like, bring the shame, baby, let's go. If I'm connected to you in love and health, I love it because it brings—because the blows of a friend are more helpful than the smiles of an enemy. There's some proverbial—some proverbial that's from Proverbs, man. It's from Proverbs. I don't get—I got the address on that, but let's study the scriptures first, Jeff. Let's get a biblical foundation of this and then let's go from there.

I don't know, Megan, what do you think? Is that am I on the right track? Give me some healthy shame if I'm off base on that, please.

No, I agree. The only thing I would add to it is like there has to be that foundation of trust built with that person you're talking to. If you don't have that, then that's where that toxic piece comes in because I can think of growing up in the church and people were like, "Well, I'm just speaking the truth," and I'm like, yeah, but like you don't have the right to speak into their life right now. And so that's a huge piece. And that's in any—whether we're in person meeting with people or we're digitally—like that trust has to be built first before you can speak into somebody's life like that.

So that's where leading everything you do with love, you know, following love the Lord God with your heart, soul, mind, and strength and love your neighbor as yourself. Like leading with love and then you can help step into their life and step in and be like, "Hey, hold up. Let's re-evaluate what's going on here," and that will be taken with so much more respect. It will be taken to heart rather than just somebody being like, "You're wrong. I can't believe you would do that," and then they just build up a wall. So like anything you're trying to tell them about Jesus and share with them, that wall has been built and that's going to be really hard to break down before you can speak back into their life. So that's the only thing I would add. Everything else I love. Amen to what you said.

And I want to apologize. I don't—you dropping me in the middle of a conversation that's like chapter six of a book that I train people on. I'm giving you like the about—this is like the stake of the mistake is this one thing right here. So thank you, Jeff, for bringing me on to one of the hardest topics on the body of Christ to have, but it's the truth. This is hard stuff to talk about, gang. And what you said, Megan, is right on point. I couldn't agree more to establish that foundation.

Yeah, I'm telling you, this is just first off a great interview, great conversation. I want to give you props, Chris. Like you're communicating this very clearly. I was nervous coming into this because it's like, man, these are deep concepts and you're really hitting stuff very well. And I want you to talk a little bit about HASED, and do you—it sounds like you deal with this theme a lot in your discipleship network and in the movements that you're trying to create. Like maybe talk a little bit about HASED and how this stuff interacts with what you're doing on a regular basis.

Well, just you saying that, Jeff, is a testimony of some of the work I've been doing with my speaking. And something that where I don't bring joy to a room is I start to increase the rate of my talking and teaching when I feel people are overwhelmed or they don't understand or don't even like what I'm saying. I get triggered and I would hit the gas pedal and accelerate when really I'm learning to slow down, to use my words well, and to let people have their disagreements, to let them have their space, to really wrestle with me on some things. That gives them agency. That gives them dignity. Instead, I would just like motor through. And you know this, bro. You know the way that you're—even that testimony, you know how I used to be, and I've taken a couple years to work on this. And thank you for seeing that.

So part of the work of what we do is emotional maturity. That's another piece of this. We learn to grow up in some areas where we have gaps. To identify those gaps, now the authors of "The Other Half of Church" book have some really good models of the gaps that we can identify throughout our history and how to fill those gaps in community with Jesus. And I've been going hard after it, bro. Taming my tongue is really what the skill is I needed to learn how to do that and to not overwhelm people so that they—it hurts my—it hurts my message. It hurts the ministry that I'm trying to do and people aren't getting it in the name of me saying you're going to get this and I'm going to run you over in my beautiful subtle ways, you know? And I'm not even—it's not even conscious, bro. So I need to get called out on that. People would call that out in me and brought shame. I felt ashamed. So here you go. Here's the living testimony. It didn't bring joy to people. I needed to learn how to work on that and that took skill and that took community. It took time to gut through it because it was my own trauma.

I grew up in a family of people. When I would talk as a young kid, it would be like I had this kind of prophetic to me as a kid. I'd see the truth, call it out, and I'd catch a beating for it. I would be put in very difficult circumstances and it was not—I was what I was saying was correct, but as a child you don't understand some things and you don't have parents that know how to—with, especially they're off in other directions, not following the Lord certainly. It got me into a lot of trouble. So I had to learn to do some things that were not helpful to my soul.

So HASED as part of our training is we help you identify those things, not to shame you, but to do an audit of yourself to say, "Hey, I'm stuck in some of these areas. Let's come around you. How can we fill those gaps within community as Christ gets transferred through one another in a second commandment way?" So that's another piece. I mean, HASED, that's a huge question you asked. I can't—I'm just giving a practical. This whole interview is a testimony of the fruit of my own life of what I'm teaching. I'm hopefully adapting it to my own life as well.

Yeah, so just like you're—I hate to say this like because I don't want this to be interpreted negatively, but I can remember having conversations with you a couple years ago, you know, on topics, not this topic, but other topics, and it's just I'm literally blown away. And you know, I'm used to blowing people away with radical concepts and stuff like this, and so I know what that looks like. And you know, I just—anytime it was with you on deep stuff like it was that, but this, like your improvements is marketable. Like it's noticeable, going from what was to what is. And so man, congratulations.

If somebody wants to get in touch with you to talk about HASED, what's the website? What's the best way to get in touch and then move forward, learning more about what you're doing?

Support at—and it's one word, three words—HASED, H-A-S-E-D, discipleship network dot com. Support at HASED discipleship network dot com. And that's HASED, H correct?

Okay, HASED discipleship network dot com. Support very, very cool. Man, this has been—Megan, this has been a lot of—lot of—well, I don't know if fun's the right word. I started to say fun. I mean, I love hanging out with my friend, but I mean some heady topics. What was the proverb? A punch from your friend is worth more than the smiles of—is more important than something like the smiles of an enemy is what you don't want?

Smiles of an enemy. A punch from a friend, okay. All right, so I'll have to like, you know, deck my friend, you know, moving forward. I do—there's an interesting—I don't want to have this conversation now because there I don't know if there's time, but I'm filing this away because I really want to like another twenty minutes just on this idea of you were talking about your inner circle, the three, and you alluded to that being like a you needed a physical base to be grounded in. And part of me is like, yeah, and then part of me is like, but. And so I don't—in my mind I'm just putting a flag on this. I may want to like, "Hey, Chris, let's come back and let's have that conversation again," because I agree that we need to get grounded. You know, I'm all about—um, walking, you know, there some of my friends talk about like taking a walk in the woods and just getting grounded into the nature. And there's this really interesting line. I don't know why this resonates so much with me, but there's this really interesting throwaway line in the movie Die Hard where they're trying to get rid of being on jet lag because he's flying across the country. And the guy is sitting next to him on the plane. It means nothing for the entirety of the movie, but the guy sitting next to him on the plane is like, "Oh, just you know, take your shoes off and walk in the carpet bare feet. That always gets rid of jet lag for me." Who cares? But in the context of what happens at Nakatomi Tower at the middle of—

You know Christmas Eve, but the idea of the physical interaction having, you know, impact into who you are, I think resonates strongly. And I know Chris is like itching to have this conversation. I'm not gonna let you because we're going to come back and we're going to dig into that at a later point. But I just want you to know like in my mind, you said that. I caught that. And I am unpacking that at some level internally in a healthy, non-toxic environment, non-judgmental on either side. Because I appreciate the, I'm trying to see if I can do, is it guilt? I appreciate the guilt. No, because it's, I'm not internal anyway. I appreciate the comment. I don't want to read too much into it. I am not going into pop psychology where I have no idea what the crap I'm talking about. So I'm not going to go there. Stay in your lane, brother. Stay in your lane. Stay in my lane. Exactly. Let me, and so I'm going to lay in the plane before I screw this thing anymore in critic. Okay. But so we are good. I always love like the last two minutes. There's so much fun. Megan Carter, you have been so good landing the plane over the past couple weeks. I'm going to throw this to you as we're wrapping up here. Any closing thoughts on your side? No, I think the biggest thing she's got nothing. Okay, no, I'm kidding. Go ahead. Please be like, oh no, not this time. No, the biggest thing I think, a lot of it boils down to is like not letting that shame and that toxic shame become your identity, right? And that's where we start taking it and we go isolate ourselves. So don't let it become your identity. It's not who you are. So let's learn how to grow from it. And when you grow, you're going to be so much more than you ever thought you could be too. It's a great learning piece. Like you said, Chris, that you know, failure is not like the worst thing in the world. It really does help you grow. And if we can start shifting our mindset on that, that can change and it can, I think, be pretty revolutionary of changing your life and other people's too. Beautiful. And with that, we're going to wrap up. So for Chris, for Megan, this is Jeff with the Church Digital. Thanks for jumping here on the podcast. We'll see you next time on the show. Twitch people, thanks for hanging out. Y'all have a good day.