EP094: The Challenge of Church Discipline in Digital Spaces

Episode 94 of the Church Digital Podcast, once again powered by Stadium Church Planning. Jeff here. This is a really enjoyable, fun conversation. This is probably one of the deeper conversations we've had here on the podcast. You know, maybe a couple weeks ago I got asked to speak at a webinar and they give you a list of questions: "Hey, here are the things we want to talk about, so be prepared to answer this." And one of the questions that I got for this particular event was, "How do you discipline someone in digital-only church?" And so my knee-jerk reaction was, "Okay, like that's not discipline, I mean discipleship." But when I kind of pulled the thread a little bit, what they really meant was discipline—like, not discipling someone, but there's sin in a church member's life and the pastor needs to speak into it. What does that look like in a digital-only space? Phenomenal question, by the way. I love the fact that we, the church, are now starting to wrestle with this idea of digital church, even to the level of how do we discipline someone in that space. And so I had a preconceived notion that I was like, "Hey, let me—this is probably the answer I want to say," but I paused and I said, "Hey, let's do this instead. I want to ask three church planters—three digital-only church planters, three digital churches that have been existing for multiple years and are all thriving and healthy—how do they handle this idea of discipline within their digital-only expression of church?" And so we opened up this Facebook thread and we had such a phenomenal conversation within Facebook Messenger that I decided, "Hey, we're gonna make a podcast out of this." And so we invited them on the podcast so that you, listening audience out there, can listen while we try to figure out how to do church discipline in a digital-only space.

So here's who we're bringing to the conversation: DJ Soto—not a stranger here to the podcast, been on quite a bit—lead pastor, VR Church, three to four, five different virtual reality churches that are existing on different continents, different platforms. Phenomenal ministry happening there. Angela Craig, Pursuit Church Live—the first social media church in the Assemblies of God denomination, maybe all of them, I don't know. A lot of churches, and especially the reach that she's getting with this. And she talks some about her church as well. And we're also bringing in Jade Earhart—also, once again, no stranger here to the podcast—Jade is with Love Clan, this video game church. He's doing a lot of stuff on Twitch, a lot of stuff on Discord. Some phenomenal, gifted, digitally-minded people that are seeing success within their church, and God is continuing to bless their ministry.

And we asked all three of them: How do you discipline people within your digital-only expression of church? And I got to tell you, I love the responses. I love this conversation. Not a lot of tech, but it is going to apply. Honestly, the heart of this is going to apply to the physical church as well as the digital church and any digital-only expressions of church. So I promise you there's going to be stuff you're going to take away from this.

So DJ, by the way—DJ's in virtual reality—so if you want to see DJ have this conversation in VR, swing over to my YouTube channel, YouTube slash the Church Digital. Over there you can see him interacting with his avatar. Angela Craig from Pursuit Church, Jade Earhart from Love Clan, and myself, Jeff, with the Church Digital, in a conversation that I'm calling "Church Discipline in Digital Spaces."

Okay, everybody, here you go. Maybe even just to kind of start the conversation out here: initial thoughts. When you guys look at or when you think about church discipline, when you think about that accountability piece, what are the immediate thoughts and contexts of your respective churches that kind of jump out at you?

You know, when you ask that question, I'm thinking about how I did church when I worked in a physical church. And this—I'm not gonna say this is every church—but typically church discipline went like this. So I'll give you the example: a husband has an affair and they come to the pastor's church office. And as a pastor, you talk to them about the sin, you talk to them about counseling, reconciliation. And typically what would happen is if one person wasn't into whatever you were suggesting as far as reconciliation process or counseling, then one or two would leave the church. And then as a pastor you're like, "Well, I've done all I can. So look, my conscience is clean." I need the emoji. But I think if we—and we've had previous conversations about this—is what does church discipline look like in a traditional church right now in four walls? And that was something that was disturbing to me because from the beginning of the Bible to the end, God is talking about reconciliation with Him and with others. And so how can we do that better? Well, it starts with relationship.

Yeah, I know. I agree with that. And you think about when Jesus and the woman caught in the act of adultery—you know, He restored her in the moment. "Go and sin no more." That's like you can kind of zoom in on that story and really pull out some ideas of discipline, of spiritual church discipline. But not to get sidetracked, I do think that doctrine needs to be reviewed because more often than not, at least from my perspective, I've seen church discipline be abused. Spiritual abuse is a real thing, even here in 2020. I saw a story where elders have gone beyond what Scripture has guided them to do in reconciliation and have really controlled people with fear and manipulation and gone beyond the mutual submission from a person in the church and their leadership. And so, you know, I don't want to get sidetracked, but I feel like that needs to be looked at because I just don't know personally if I've seen a good example of church discipline. As a matter of fact, when people bring that word up, it's like a red flag and just kind of immediately puts me on alert that they want to have control over people. And not everybody—I'm sure people have done it well—but it certainly is a red flag.

But I think in the Facebook thread that we were having before, I love that idea of reconciliation rather than discipline. "Discipline" just sounds so final, like there's just an attitude behind it. Whereas "reconciliation," at least for me—maybe it's just semantics—the spirit of that word represents what Christ does to restore and renew and to bring back. And I think you see that expression with Paul to the Corinthian church. We had some really jacked-up things going on there, but he was like, "You know, well, that's interesting." You know, I just thought of that. Like, Paul enacted—if you want to use the word "church discipline"—with the church at Corinth. And how did he do that? Through a letter. And he was hoping that letter, which would be interacted asynchronously, if you will, would have an effect so that when he goes there to visit them in person, it would already be taken care of. So that's like an example of before Facebook and virtual reality and Discord—you know, the church or spiritual reconciliation was happening via letters. And I'm sure face-to-face as well. And so that hasn't changed. Like, to think that church discipline—and I'm going to retire that word for me during this conversation—spiritual reconciliation. To think that that can't happen on Facebook, in VR, when the first examples we've seen were done through letters? I think we might be missing that.

So, yeah, anyway, those are my thoughts about spiritual reconciliation. And at VR Church, if I think about it, we do it quite a bit, but it's in the spirit of encouragement. You know, humans are humans. Things are going to happen. Attitudes are going to flare up. And there is that passage, I think it's in Philippians, where Paul was talking to two women and saying, "Hey, settle your disagreements. Get that figured out." And so whether it's physical or social media or virtual reality, we've had conversations. And like Angela was saying, it's about relationships, conversations, discipleship. And that can be done over the telephone. It can be done through a letter. It can be done face-to-face and with avatar to avatar. And so the idea that you can't have that expression of Christianity in these digital environments, I think is a miss.

That's excellent. I want to pull Jade into this because he had some really great examples of relationship. And I think maybe for those that are listening that possibly aren't doing digital church might wonder how that happens online, as far as building those deep one-on-one relationships. And what DJ was saying from First Corinthians in chapter five—Apostle Paul calls us to the ministry of reconciliation. And all those letters are written through the lens of love. And so the example I gave earlier of the husband and the wife that come and the husband has an affair—now that husband just sat in church on Sunday mornings, maybe once a month or twice a month, for thirty minutes. He had no relationship with anybody. And so that's really where we need to examine, whether we have in-person or online, we need to examine where that miss is, where that hole is, why people leave church when they fall into sin because we all do sin.

Jade, share some of your experiences.

No, that's a good example actually. That was one I had written down: First Corinthians 5. That's like, you know, they are associating with this person. It's sexual immorality is like highly rampant in that culture. And that's a—I think what's important to note is that's a very extreme case, you know? Like, that's a person who is sleeping with their father's wife. You know, and it even says that's something even the pagans don't tolerate. You know, and yet you guys are associating with this. You know, and so you need this to not be something that you associate with. You know, and that you hand this person over to the destruction of their flesh if that's something that they are non-repentant of. You know, and I think that's a—there's a very big difference between somebody who's struggling with something and somebody who is non-repentant of something. And I think a lot of times where we cross a line is if we notice somebody ascending and then we therefore say, "Well, they continue to sin with this, and so I guess we're just going to..." There's a big difference between that and just saying, "Yeah, I'm not repentant of this, and I don't care at all."

I think that's first and foremost. The second thing is like Matthew 18, where there's probably the biggest example. But if somebody sins against you, then you go to them one-on-one. And what I think is interesting here is that that pretty clearly says if somebody sins against you, you know, this is a sin that happens directly to you, so then you go to that person one-on-one. And if they're not willing to hear you—basically, again, unrepentant—then you go with somebody else just to make sure that it's not just you that's hearing these things, you know? It's not just you that's feeling these things. And if you go with somebody else and they're still non-repentant, then you go before the church. And that's—I mean, that's like—that's...

The case where it leads, it's very clear. It says here's the path that leads to essentially excommunication, but it's really based on the idea of unrepentance. So in both of those cases, it's somebody who has a pattern of sin that doesn't show struggle or acknowledgement of it.

So then it leads to this stage that we get to. I just think that's important to note because I think that's really where the heart of, in my opinion, that's probably where the heart of people would come from if they were from a modern church background, not knowing online church, not thinking at all about that these are verses that they would probably come to mind. It would be like, let's well, let's talk about these things. So let's get them out in the open.

What we've mentioned in chat before this, and what I think is worth just bringing up again, any of these things are just as important online as they are in person. And a lot of the times they're done just as poorly in person as they are done online. So if there's anything that you're looking at and you're like, wow man, I, you know, that's a really great point, you know, yeah, let's do that. Let's, before we look at the online church and say the online church is not doing this effectively, it's a good chance that we're also not doing it effectively in a physical church. And so those are not things that we need to, you know, condemn an online church for or whatever, but that we need to as a group, as a collective church, we need to all look at and say, how can we do this effectively?

And so with that said, yeah, let's move forward and like, let's discuss ways that we can as a local church and as an online church, as a body of believers, how can we work towards a better capital C church? And I think it's actually kind of funny and maybe not coincidental that we did start off by accidentally thinking, oh yeah, he's talking about discipleship, not discipline. And you know, that's important. And it's kind of funny because it's like, yeah, that's almost the answer to a lot of our woes, right? Like discipline comes as a step in discipleship, like it should. It's the continual teaching of people. And I actually really like the idea of, okay, yeah, you want to discipline somebody. Okay, well then you should have lots of steps that lead up to that. Even biblically it shows an example and says this is the steps that you take. And that's what I think of when I think of discipleship is you're leading people down a journey to being closer, in a direction towards Jesus. And that does not mean, if I was you, you would be out of your mind. There is no church that thinks, yes, let's start a church in Vegas and the first day that people walk through the door we say, yeah, tell us everything and then we're gonna, you know, we're gonna really slam in India because, you know, that's what the Bible says. You'd be like, well, no, I mean, there's a lot of steps to take before they get up to that point.

Exactly. And so we need to have discipleship because we need to have a relationship with somebody, not because it makes it easier for us to say, oh yeah, you know, we can just really slam it into you, but because we don't care as much about slamming it into somebody as we do about this person's eternal, lasting relationship with Jesus. And it's just natural human that if you're to just slam somebody into that, well, you're judging somebody. Yeah, you know, am I going to judge those outside of the church or I'm going to judge those inside the church? There's a mistake, a mystique there. There's an image sometimes that we're using the church discipline or even we're doing the discipleship as a way of controlling people, of getting people to do what we want them to do. And I'm not even making this about digital. I think it's physical. I think it's maybe just a perception, maybe it's American church, maybe it's outside. I can't speak outside as well as in the U.S., but you know, what we're talking about here, it's at the church leadership level. It's really, it's not about control, is it? What is it really when you get to the heart of it? What's it about?

I think that there's a big hole in traditional church, at least the ones that I've worked in. And I'm an area leader in our network of 340 churches, so like a pastor to pastors. And we've gotten into a totally different discipleship model of Sunday morning and small groups are fantastic, but my mentor Don Ross taught me something that really has worked. And this is how he transformed his church. He's the author of "Turn Around Church" for pastors. And he transformed his church by doing a one-on-one discipleship model. And so we have taken that on, and that's really where the hard work is. And I see that in each of my friends' ministries here online that are here in this podcast is that we are really one-on-one with people. And it's tough and it's tiring. And so if I'm to say to a pastor that's in a church right now, you need to do all the things you're doing for your church and disciple people one-on-one like Jesus did, like the apostles did, we set it up so that when someone comes in they walk with another person who's already mentoring someone else. And so they learn that way. And it's that daily connection that we have the opportunity to do online and digitally that we don't in church, and especially in a pandemic right now. So that's how we're doing it and seeing an incredible amount of fruit. And I will give some examples later, but I want to hear from everybody else.

Oh, I was just going to mention, like, I do want to, I actually do want to hear an example from you, but no, just like what Angela's saying and a point that's worth making is that we often see that people say, well, you know, this person's been coming. Because there is a time frame. I do believe there is a certain time frame at which things need to be said, and especially this person when I'm thinking about in my head the example of Paul saying, well, we know that this person has this that's happening. They are sleeping with their father's wife or whatever, you know, I mean, this is like extreme example. But for Paul to have heard it means that it's not, I mean, he doesn't have Facebook. It's not he logged in that day and somebody said, hey, by the way, you know, it's like it was heard. It was known amongst the congregation. It was then spread all the way to him, who through somebody else, and he had time to write a letter that then, you know, like this is a long-standing thing. So there is something about time that happens in this.

And with online, we, rather than in a physical church where we can say, well, yeah, you have Sunday morning and then you go home and then you're, you know, I don't see you again until the next Sunday. I might see you again on a small group, definitely not everybody. You know, and that this is a big difference from online. And why I think that we really do need to have some hybrid where we're meeting and online. If you're only meeting local because you just have more opportunities to meet. And I don't really care how you do it. If it's like, oh, we're going to do a go live on Facebook or we're going to do a Zoom meeting or whatever, this is, but you need some way to meet throughout the week because that's just koinonia. The idea that you're like actually having your conversations weekly that you're having are or more during the week that you're having all things in common. You can't have that if you're just having an hour on Sunday.

Hold on, back, back. I want to back up, Jake. You're 28, 27? I've had this conversation with you. I'm sorry, somewhere. Yeah, yeah, something like that. I remember you're telling me, and let me just play devil's advocate here because somebody out there is saying it right now. You're telling me that you think that we should be physical church should be meeting more online because that way they're going to grow closer together if they're meeting more online instead of just meeting physically? Unpack that logic for you in my brain.

We all meet online, of course we're going to meet online. It's the complete opposite where it's like it's just weird that we meet, you know, in person every week. I don't meet all my friends in person every week. I've moved all over the United States and there's no way that I would be able to meet with my friends. Most of my friends that I meet with regularly, I've never lived within three states of them. I mean, we just met online and we've been hanging out online and then, you know, we went to Japan together. You know, I don't know how many. Yeah, it's almost like, like, and it wasn't that weird. I met them for the first time and I was like, oh, here you go, which like, DJ, it's like, oh, I'm meeting your physical avatar. That's cool, like, you know, we usually just chat online and it's great to actually meet you in person. And people are like, wasn't I just, didn't I just transform your relationship with them? And like, no, I mean, not really. It was cool that I got to hang out with them in Japan, but what really transformed our relationship was years of hanging out in a Discord call, which is, for those who don't know, it's basically like what we're doing right now in a Zoom meeting, just not always with video, sometimes just with chat. And getting to unpack kind of the things that get that make them tick and the way that they think. And like hanging out with them, just, I don't know, like just hanging out. And it doesn't have to be in person, but I'm actually getting to know them better. And from that, when I meet them in person, it's like we just pick off where we left off the last when we're chatting online. And our relationship is, I know them way better. Like when we, when they order something, I could have probably ordered for them. You know, I don't know how many people in your church you can order their meal for, but I already know what they like and what they don't like. And they're actively looking for a place that's vegetarian for me because they know that's what I, you know, it's just these thoughts. Like I see something and I go, oh, you're gonna love this, and I'm gonna buy this for you. And it's just something. It's just different. I don't know. That's you. How can you get that if you only have an hour on Sunday? And I hate having to use that so often, but it's just that. It's just the logic is like, let's just go to, we're going to go to church where we do our sermon and then you think that somehow, first of all, they don't even know you. They know the Bible, which is amazing. They should absolutely know the Bible. But that's the meeting in the courts, temples. There's you're completely throwing out that they met in their homes daily. You know, if you're not eating meals with them, then how are you getting to know them? They don't know you. They just know the Bible, which is not bad. They need to know the Bible, but they also need to know you because you're the one that's going to have to tell them, hey, this is what the Bible says. And if you want to do this discipline correctly, you have to do discipleship correctly. And if you're not doing discipleship correctly, then you're, you know, you have no relationship with them. And if you have no relationship with them, then you have no right to tell them anything because all you're telling them is what's already been written in the Bible, which is absolutely fine. They need to follow that, but they're not going to hear it from the Bible. Or else they would have already done it. They need to hear it from you. And that's why you have to disciple. That's why the Bible says very clearly, go.

And make disciples and teach them right, teach them to follow all that I've commanded you. How are you going to teach them to follow all that I've commanded you if you don't have a relationship with him? It's, I, then we might as, you know what, we can all just quit. We can all, none of we don't need, we don't need sermons. We just have YouTube and it'll just literally be the Bible Project and it'll just be there telling you, you know, here's what the Bible says and we none of us need to exist because we're just, you know, another voice that's spitting what the Bible says. Like they don't need that. They need, they need a pastor who actually cares about them. They need somebody that's gonna be there for them when they get sick. That's to actually go to their house and that's just not going to happen, you know? It's all the points that they make that they say, yeah, you need somebody that, how is online going to work if somebody can't go to your, you know, your hospital when you're sick? It's like, yeah, somebody needs to do that. We, you have to have that. But that's the same problem that we have in the local churches if we have an online church. So if we're not doing, if we're not both looking at each other and saying, hey, like these people are doing community really, really well, but maybe they're not having the Bibles, you know, like they're, they're not doing discipline well. Well, you're not doing relationship well. And so you really need to think about how do you do your relationship better? We all need to learn from each other, but it's not going to happen unless it's with the view of discipleship, which all of us are not doing very well.

Yeah, one thought, one thought I had off what Jay was saying was, um, you know, some of my leaders, not even just people in the church, many of my leaders I never met physically for like a year or two, um, after we first met in the digital sphere. And they're leaders, they're active, they're, um, part of the church. And so it's when you meet them, it's just a moment of, oh, here's what you look like, or you know, maybe we've seen their picture in social medias and, oh, this is how tall is our shorty or whatever. And within seconds you're just picking up where you left off, you know? You were old buddies, we're old friends. Um, and so I think that's something that's significant. And I think when you look back at Scripture and you see like in the Book of Acts, it was the day-to-day meeting, breaking of bread and prayers. And, and so that was in that tight local city town construct. And so as time has gone by in this modern society, we're stretched out, transportation and all that. And so in this context, in this construct, it makes sense to meet once on a Sunday, maybe once in a small group. But the glue to replicate that house, that daily experience, can be the digital sphere. The social media, Discord is fantastic, virtual reality, man, that's what makes that's like the glue of it all. I think. And to not use that or to dismiss that, I think is to remove the glue, to remove the mirroring that you know, New Testament church experience of day-to-day, uh, just saying hello. I mean, it doesn't have to be this like ten-hour-a-day thing, but man, five minutes chatting on Discord, you know, man, you're just connecting. You're just, um, it's just so powerful. So, um, I think the day-to-day of that early church experience can be fulfilled through digital tools.

I absolutely agree. That was awesome. Preach it, Jake. I'm telling you, that was just great. I'm thinking about in church, if we were, you know, if people come to your church and the average church is fifty to seventy-five now, and you were to actually, um, physically connect with that person, each person that walks through those doors, that's what we do. We're able to do on Facebook. And we have a team of people that basically anybody who comes through the doors, we connect with them on Messenger. And so this has been the best way. So we have Messenger Mentors is what we call it. And so they're one-on-one, um, connecting with people, sending them a message, how can we pray for you? How can we get you connected? What are you interested in? Uh, and, and it's incredibly powerful. And so the example I can tell just from in the middle of the night last night in one of our Messenger groups, we try to keep them, you know, ten to twenty people, um, to make, you know, the church smaller than, and it's a daily, it's that daily getting God's word. We're talking, we're going through the New Testament a year, so we post from that. Um, but just to wake up and see, because there's people from all over the world, uh, the body of Christ taking care of each other. So we have someone I'll call him Joey. He has not been sleeping at night. And so I am asleep. Well, he is messaging this group, and people from all around the world that are in his group in Africa and Mexico are, are messaging back, you know, we're praying for you, we've got you. And he is so desperate. I mean, this isn't just a, and not sleeping poem. This is a, I think I'm gonna take drugs to sleep. I think I don't trust God because I don't hear him answering my prayers. You know, where is he? I've been praying for weeks and I can't sleep. And, and so to have other people, um, besides me in the group that are ministering to him, that he's built relationship with them, where he could be honest, he could say, I think I'm going back to the way of drugs that I was at before I came to Pursuit. Um, that they could be there and then we could speak into that. That's, if someone just goes to church on Sunday, who are they talking to? And so that's the power of what we have, um, to be able to press in to that. We have to have relationship first for them to trust us that we can tell them the Bible is true and God wants your life to be whole. That's why we have these, um, the discipline or the, you know, as you might say, but it's all about record, um, reconciliation, you know, to relationship with God and other people. And so it's really a privilege to, uh, be called to digital ministry. And I do agree that churches that are in person should be using it, um, daily. It's awesome. So thanks, guys. That's awesome.

I was having a conversation, um, recently where, uh, I was talking about this idea of being relational, building relationships. And sure, and this, this, this part of the conversation goes digital as, as well as the church online and churches that are going full digital. Uh, the person says to me, Jeff, what kind of relationships can you really have with the person? All they are is a red number on a screen. And it was this illusion of, hey, you know, they're just, they're just a stat in church online platform or it's a, it's a plus one on, on, on a Facebook feed. But Angela, a lot of the stuff that I hear you talking about is, I mean, one-on-one discipleship, uh, multiple continents, uh, you know, this, uh, Messenger Mentors, which I'm gonna reference that I love that idea, uh, the, the power of that's very cool. It, there, there's talk to me a little bit about that. We're hearing little bits of it, but the, the practicalness of these relationships, how, how they're developed, how you're getting the volunteer leaders, all of you are very strong in your churches, your digital churches, utilizing these volunteers to do this. Like talk to me about some of these relationships. Tell me some more of these stories where these are not just plus ones that are showing up in a web browser where these are actually people who have names that are that are involved within within your church. Uh, DJ, why don't you go first?

Before I talk about the practice, I just let me just touch on like when someone says, can you have relationships? Can you do discipleship? I feel like maybe they don't know what the tools that are out there. There is a zillion things you could pick from. You know, we're talking about Facebook, Discord, Marco Polo, Telegram, you know, there's, there's like a zillion video chats, you know, chat, you know, apps, voice chat, man, you just name it. You just go on the app store and there's so many ways to connect. Um, and so I think for people to kind of get into it and try it, especially if you're doubting, I don't know if I can do this, try it out. You know, create a little experimental life group or a small group and see what it's like. I think you'll be pleasantly surprised, especially if you, you pick the right tool. Um, and even if you, uh, just experiment for a little bit, I think it's just gonna just show breakthrough and you're gonna say you're closer, uh, than you were before. And, um, I think I was talking, let's see, I think it was a from Dallas Theological Seminary, um, one guy there who's kind of dabbling in VR was trying to convince some of his seminary teachers to get into like digital teaching, trying to encourage that. A lot of said no, this has to be done online. And then well, COVID had happened. And so they, was they were forced to. And one of the PR professors is like, I'm closer to my students I've ever been. I feel like I know them more than in the, in the physical class. And, and for us we're like, yes, you know, um, yes, we know. And so I think if we can just like package that little story up and spread that around to those who are really doubtful about, um, you know, digital discipleship experience, you know, reconciliation, all of this stuff, I think they would be just a surprise. But yeah, so I'm just thinking of the tools and technology to dive into. But from a practical way, you know, we're not reinventing the wheel. It still goes back to that conversations, uh, face to face, hellos, and how are you, and let's journey together, and life is tough. And, um, so it's nothing that like I think at VR Church we're not doing anything different than what's been done for a millennia, just relationships and connections and discipleship. So, uh, there isn't like a, what's the, there's not like a secret sauce, you know? It's just, um, old-fashioned to one degree in a new form. So you mix those two and you have what we're doing.

Anyone else have a good story, a practical application?

I would, um, piggyback on Jay when he was talking about going to Japan with people he met online. And how they knew each other. And I didn't know, I think I only knew two of my team members, and the first team members in the first two years, I'd only known and met them maybe actually three. And, and so the first in-person that we had a year ago in October, it was as if a big family was coming together and we had always known each other. And they had been in my house, they had, you know, via video. But I think I always tell pastors that if, if they want to check it out, they can come and just be part of what we do at Pursuit. Have yet to have anybody take me up on that. But, but I think it does, when you're in it, you can, you can really explore all the things like DJ was saying. We use Marco Polo a lot. I mean, there's, um, there's so such incredible opportunity to build relationships with people. And they, just everybody, including me, I mean, includes the human need to be seen, to be recognized. And, um, social media, digital spaces have given us that place to see people like God sees them and to pull out the best in them and to love them right where they're at, not how they should be. And that is really the draw for people at least at our church. And I know from the stories I've heard, um, so and so many stories of people that couldn't get connected to a local church or, or left church because they were hurt or have chronic illness. There's lots and lots of reasons people don't go to church anymore. And this is a way to help them be seen by God, be seen by us, and be pulled in, you know, because they have such a great purpose and God has a plan for him. So that's been, it's been it's blown my mind. Um, again, I just feel so privileged to be part of this group. And, um, thank you for hosting. That's awesome.

I got a question just even to, to build on that, Angela. I'm curious because we

Even mentioned earlier this idea of, you know, reconciliation, and I even want to talk about how that works in the digital space and what that restoration process looks like. But even before we get there, I'm curious—rough percentages—like, describe what you guys are seeing in a digital church in context of de-churched, unchurched, you know, so maybe people that are burned and turned off of the typical model of a physical church using it that way, maybe unchurched, not at all comfortable and not versed in it at all, maybe the digital expression of church is really the first time they've been to church. Where are you at, DJ?

Oh man, that's like most of who come to VR church is those who maybe I don't identify with faith. I'm surprised—well, maybe not surprised, but it's fascinating to hear someone say I've never been to church before. I hear that several times a month, and it's amazing. It's beautiful. I love that. Hearing that moment they're in church, never been to a church before. So it's not like a de-churched thing where they used to go as a kid and now they don't. They've never stepped foot in a church. It's wild.

And so, um, I think back to when VR church was first planted, I think for a good two to three months there was no other Christians. It was just, you know, a room full of like, you know, atheists, agnostics, you know, people just kind of seeking spiritually. And I think that shaped how we, how I preach and how we teach. But it also is indicative of what's happening today. I mean, you walk into our virtual reality church and there's no doubt, you know, people that are atheists and agnostic are walking around, hanging out. And people ask me all the time—well, maybe not all the time—but they just ask me, you know, why is an atheist come to VR church? And I think people are still just curious about spirituality. They're curious about faith. Um, and they just want to have a conversation about it. And that'd be tough to do, like, walk up to a church and, you know, start drumming up conversation about atheism and evolution or, you know, creationism, whatever. And they're able to do that in these digital environments. And um, if you've cultivated an inclusive attitude towards these conversations and not resistant—like, oh, um—then you, it really provides opportunity for breakthrough for people. You realize, oh, you know, we can have these conversations and it's not threatening. And it can—it's very beautiful.

So anyways, to what you're saying, man, it's all I see is what you described: people who are unchurched, church, and they've never been to church before. And that is the norm, not the exception.

Yeah, I mean, same. It's most of the people that I speak to. They really aren't turned off to learning about the Bible, and they're not even turned off to the idea of Jesus. They actually like the idea that somebody loves them, a God loves them and wants to see them reconciled. That's not like—it's kind of mind-blowing that we're like, why would they ever? Why would they not? I mean, like, that's a completely our own narrative that we think that for some reason they would not want that. Uh, they do. What they don't want is they don't want church culture. Like, they—the ones that have grown up in a church and that left, and then left—they left for a reason. Like, and most of the time it's not because Jesus loves them and wants, you know, to see them reconciled. And most of the time it's not even that the Bible says there's a list of things that you should or shouldn't do. If you ask them, most of the time it's like, well, I tried church and it was really judgmental. Like, okay, you know, I tried church and, um, I just felt I got, I fell into the cracks, you know? I tried church, but it was like, what was the point? I, it was just telling what the Bible said. So I still believe what the Bible says, but I just don't go to church anymore. I mean, like, I hear these all the time. This is the same thing over and over again. And, um, you know, I actually really like whenever I can talk to somebody who hasn't been to church because then there's not this barrier that I have to get past at the beginning of it, you know? Uh, so instead, I can just be like, here's what the Bible says. Like, let's talk about that and let's have a relationship and let's move further into that.

Um, so yeah, like, uh, yeah, I, I even where I'm at now, I'm fine if people just want to say like, oh, well, you know what you're doing is, um, is missionary work. That's fine. Whatever. If you don't want to call it a church, I don't even care anymore. But what—yeah, I, I spent a lot of my time live streaming right now. Right now, that's what I'm doing. Right? I quit my job working in a church so that I could really take this very seriously. And so I've been live streaming like seventeen hours a day, something like that. Um, you know, every other day, sometimes every day. The last three days it's been at least seventeen hours. Uh, and so I spent a lot of time essentially playing video games and talking to a camera. It's kind of what we're doing right now. But imagine how much time I can have, you know? You can say it's a number, but I see their names. I see when they're chatting, you know? That's who I'm talking to. And if I'm, if I'm a lot, if I'm live for seventeen hours, this person is going to see every way that I interact. When I'm in a game, they're going to see the way that I interact with people, you know? And they're going to see that it's something different.

So first and foremost, I got to cultivate that. My life has to reflect God's. If my life is not becoming more and more like Jesus, then I am not going to have anything to share with anybody because they're gonna—they're gonna look at my life and go, well, you look like everybody else, and they're gonna continue on. But I regularly get people in the game that are like, wow, like, I've never met somebody so nice. I don't know why you're so nice, right? Like, and I have to—like, that's not something that just happens. You have to actively say, well, this is how Jesus is. This is how I see in the Bible I'm supposed to be. So that's how I'm gonna be. Like, I'm going to let it continue to transform my mind. You're like, I'm going to let it actually affect the way that I act. And people are going to see that. And through the acting of how my life is, seeing me regularly in front of a camera, the way that I respond to people, the way that I talk to people, then it's like, okay, now I'm gonna—I'm gonna listen to what you have to say, you know?

I've seen it, um, you know, and that we see that time and time again in Jesus where it's they go and they question him and they're like, well, you know, we've seen—we've seen the way that he's acted. We see the things that he says. Um, and so through that, he gets a following that's more like people are—yeah, like, blood sure, everything that he's doing is, you know, crit. And then he'll say something after he's met with them for a while, and then they're like, whoa, hey, that's too much. And then kind of it's kind of like ebb and flow of the water. And I kind of feel like that whenever I'm live streaming. I'm just chatting people. People are way on top of it. They're feeling it. And I'm like, all right, then I'm going to give you a little bit more, you know? Like, this is a little bit maybe too much for you. And people are kind of like, whoa, we just started talking about God. I'm really not ready for that. I just kind of, you know, wanted to hang out with a nice person. And you're like, hey, well, you know, you don't get one without the other because I wouldn't be a naturally nice person if it wasn't for God working in my life. And that, you know, I'd be selfish if it wasn't for this. And so on and so forth. Some hear it and some don't, you know? And so when I think about this kind of relationship, ebb and flow, you know, some people are like, yeah, hey, man, right up, right off the top, you know, because they're already in it and they already understand. But then other people don't. And like, if you don't have that tension, um, then you're probably doing the revolving door thing where you found a bunch of people that came from the church down the street and they just really like your worship better. And so, you know, that—I don't know how many times you've pulled your church, but you know, if you don't have people that are actually, you know—you know, I was just thinking, you know, I know Jake, you're not looking for like, you know, validation as a church, but uh, just let me just throw in my two cents as an observer. I've observed your Discord that you've merged with the community with Twitch or vice versa, whatever. That whole experience and what you've done there is at a shepherding level that most, uh, pastors would not get to. And I'm not trying to put, you know, us versus them. I'm not trying to pit. But if we're gonna say your thing is just a side little nothing or, you know, it's cute, what are you doing over there? No, it's significant. The shepherding, the pastoring that you're doing is more pastoring than most pastors do. And again, I'm not trying to start a, you know, confrontation. But, um, I think people need to see that, you know, when they like Jeff, but they question you, like, I don't know about this, you know, it's just a dot man experience. Love Clinton on Twitch, then on Discord, and you see the shepherding. There's no doubt there's a powerful ministry there. It's a church. It's the gathering of believers, and the word is being ministered. And so it's just powerful. And I think everyone should experience it before they, uh, dismiss it as insignificant.

Yeah, and you're seeing fruit from that, DJ. Exactly right. So one of the reasons why I love having conversations with planters like you is because we're seeing the fruit of the labor come in through these relationships. And it's—and it's growing and it's multiplying. And you know, the challenge of Jake and we, you and I, we've had this conversation already—it's we need more Jakes. We need more DJs. We need more Angelas out there doing this. And so I'm curious. I don't see anyone asked the question like the mentality of Jake, which you said earlier: hey, like, I'm playing video games. I'm a nice guy. Um, but they're nice guys because of Jesus, and I'm gonna share and I'm gonna talk about that. And so like, I'm gonna be, you know, digital missionary, whatever, whatever the language is. I'm using my circle of influence digitally to connect people to Christ. And through that, getting engaged in this idea of a digital-only church. My question would be: is how easy, how difficult? What are the challenges to kind of reproduce that, like, carbon copy Jakes, DJs, Angelas as you're working with your leadership teams? A lot of these people you don't know in physical space. You're not—Angel, I think you made the mention earlier it was a year or so before you met a lot of the people that you've been working with. Um, so like, are there inherent challenges in growing and discipling people to that level that they're actually able to lead at the level that you yourself are leading?

I can speak to that, and I think everyone would probably say the same thing as it goes back to the relationship that we build every day that we are in digital space. Has a much more vulnerable approach as far as we are in each other's lives. There's—I remember the first time I met one of our team members. She did interpreting for the deaf community, and I met her. I was at a conference in Las Vegas, and she happened to be in a conference at Las Vegas. And so we met up and we're having coffee. And like five minutes in the conversation, I was like, well, I don't really have anything else to say because, you know, everything—like, we've been talking online up until we met in person. So I think actually you have...

A much better view into someone's spiritual life, into their relationship with Christ, into everything that they're doing than you do if someone's just coming to your church once or twice a week in person because you are building that daily relationship with them. And so I don't have any hesitation when putting people in place. I think that could be a whole other podcast or conversation would be about keeping teams safe because we do a lot of work around that, keeping teams and the people they serve safe because that happens in the church as well. But really it does have to do with that building of relationship that leads to trust and vulnerability and authenticity. And that way we can definitely put people into leadership spots a lot quicker because they're growing faster, they're transforming faster because they're in the word, they're in community every single day, not just a couple times a month.

Here's the thing, and this may bleed over into the physical space. People who are doing church online as well, and really the first place that I heard this was out of Jay Kranda's, online pastor over at Saddleback, a friend here on the podcast. He says people in physical space, maybe this is pre-COVID, I don't know how post-COVID it's really going to change this, but in physical space, people would often connect to Christ before they would connect to community. But with church online services, Jay would say that they found that Saddleback people were connecting to community before they were getting connected to Christ. And oftentimes when I had conversations with online pastors, digital pastors, it's that common theme where people are looking for that community, that relationship piece in the community space before they were really giving credibility for the conversation about Christ.

I'm just curious, digital only churches, virtual reality, Facebook, video games, you know, everything that you guys are doing. Would you agree to that community before Christ mentality with the people?

Yeah, yeah, absolutely, absolutely. That's like, I don't, we haven't done official surveys or whatever, just by observation, like ninety percent of that is certainly just connecting with the community and just journeying along and people kicking the tires of this whole Christ thing. You know, what is this all about? And seeing if it's the real deal, right? And so yeah, that is a powerful statement. I believe that's true for us and we've seen that. We've seen even just recently an atheist come to Christ within the past couple of weeks. But he's been with us for like six to eight months, just hanging around, even volunteering and being a part of the community. And then, you know, he's always said, "I'm an atheist, I'll help out, but I'm an atheist," you know what I mean? I was like, "Yeah, that's cool, man, just come hang out and do your thing." And so there's a couple weeks ago where he sat down and goes, "I think this faith in Christ thing is real for me." And so that, yeah, I don't know what else to say about that then a hundred percent agree, and we've seen that a hundred percent.

Yeah, and actually I think I, sorry, yeah, I also like I cultivate that. Like, so when I think about a local church, it makes sense that people would go there for Christ before they would go for a community because if I'm looking for community and I'm an atheist, I mean, I go to a bar. I'm not like, "Oh man, I'm gonna go find community, let's go to church today." Like, that's not like that's not the mental thought. And sometimes I think we just kind of like, like, why would they, why would they go to a church for community that you wouldn't? Like, if you were an atheist, you want to go to a church for a community? You don't. You don't go, "Well, I'm really bored on a Wednesday, maybe I'll go to the local mosque and see how they're hanging out," you know? Like, you don't do that. And why? Because that's just not, it's weird. And it is weird. So I think that's the same thing with for me is like, yeah, and those are the people that I'm not trying to reach. Like, I'm not trying to reach the already church because they already have a church. It's not like I'm trying to say let's just pull people out of churches. I don't want revolving door and now you're online and you were at local church. Like, those are the people I'm trying to reach. Like, I'm trying to reach people who are looking for community because they don't have one, you know? And like, okay, let's talk to those people. So that's kind of actually why I think about, I'm okay with if people are like, "Let's, they don't want to call it church," whatever, that actually helps my cause because my goal is to reach people, not to build a church. Like, and if that happens and we build a church and everybody looks at it and goes, "Wow, that's a church," from the outside, and people from online are going, "Well, I'm just looking for a community," I'll find them, I'll call it a community. I don't call them small groups. I call them community groups because I'm like, yeah, it's a small community of people and you hang out. And if you say small group, they're like, "I don't know what that is," you know?

So a lot of it, I think, is yes, it's people that are looking for community, but you got to find ways to connect with people first. And then this is where that is. So for me, it's like, yeah, I'm playing video games. You know, that just happened to be the thing for me because I'm trying to find a group of people that are not already reached, right? And that happens. That is the same thing. It's like, "Well, yeah, let's go, this isn't working, let's go to the Gentiles," you know what I mean? It's kind of a similar thing where I'm just like, "Hey, like, this is the group of people that needs it," and so that's the group of people that I'm going for. And just like Paul, I'm gonna kind of tailor my message. And like, you know, when I go into the, what is it, the Areopagus, you know, like, I'm gonna change the way I say things. I'm gonna be like, "Well, you know, I see you guys are very spiritual. You know, you guys are very wisdom-based. You guys have statues and you guys are obviously trying to figure this thing out. But you have this one that's to the unknown God. So hey, I actually happen to know that God. Would you like me to tell you about him?" You know? And he would never give that speech to the apostles, you know why? Because it's just not the way that you communicate with them. And so it's going to look different. Like, the way that I communicate with people online in an online space for gamers that I know are non-Christians, it's going to look different, but it's the same message. Not like I'm going to change the message, but I'm going to give them stuff that's for the stage that they're at, you know? And how am I going to know the stage that they're at if I don't have a relationship, you know? And so that's it, all comes full circle. But that's where it is for me.

I think one thought I think is interesting is when you think of unreached people groups, oftentimes we define that through geography, like, you know, Africa, China, and by the way, that's still true. But in this new digital era, there is the most, the largest unreached people group is the gaming community. And I think that if the church kind of framed it from that perspective, as like an evangelical America, we wouldn't be okay with unreached people groups, you know, massive. We would do something about it, you know, funding missionaries, would kind of do that. And if we start to think of unreached people groups from the perspective of the digital sphere, virtual reality, we realize, man, there's whole continents, so to speak, that are not being reached, and it's just not on our radar. So we need to think of it in that way.

And, you know, what Jade's doing is powerful. What Angela is doing is so compelling and it's very powerful. And just one quick story, I don't know, I just wanted, this is just happening in real time and I think it's interesting. So, you know, I'm playing this video game called Rust, and you know, it's like a base builder type of thing. And, you know, a lot of killing and running around and trying to get loot and, you know, making friends and so just building a base. This guy came up to me and he says, "Hey, I need an ally." So we've just been hunkering down the past since Saturday. Yesterday he goes, "Hey, are you in VR?" because he would see my profile picture. I was like, "Yeah." He goes, "Uh, have you been to VR Chat?" I was like, "Yes, as a matter of fact, I have a church in VR Chat." And so I invited him to church and I think he's gonna come. And it's just amazing to see like how these things are connected. And, you know, it's just, I don't know, I guess I get stuck on when people are really resistant to the idea of a video game church and Facebook and virtual reality when there's such a compelling ministry going on.

So yeah, I love that idea of looking at digital community as unreached people groups. We've been using that language through Stadia a lot lately and writing blogs on it. Angela, my ears perked up when you said the thing about deaf, and that your church is doing a thing about deaf, which is also the ASL, American Sign Language, one of the largest unreached people groups currently in America. And so the fact that through a digital church you're able to connect those people to, through that community, into that community, even though they're dispersed all across the country, like I've always wanted to see churches care more for that community because they're often just forgotten. And I think that's one of the things that are exciting to me is that we've got an opportunity to, through digital means, to easily connect and reach into people that are often forgotten or discarded.

And I've always said this: a digital only expression of church is going to reach a different type of person that's coming into the physical building. It's not, at least in 2020, I don't believe this. I don't think a digital expression of church is going to replace a physical church. Now, physical churches may be drying up, and even just today at a conversation with a church who's like, "Yeah, I no longer have a building. Can I possibly do this digitally? Can you help?" Like, there's all sorts of people, all sorts of churches. Barnett just said recently twenty percent of churches are going to shut down the next eighteen months. So you're going to see different expressions of church kind of open up. But I love this passion through digital church to reach people that don't normally get reached through the typical normal church method.

So this has been a great conversation. I love the fact that it all comes back to this relationship place. And even though perception is that the technology will not allow for the relationships to be built, time and time again when we have conversations with people who are utilizing the technology, we're seeing that relationships are the forefront of these digital expressions of church and missionaries and all the stuff that you guys are doing.

So this has been a great conversation. We're gonna wrap up, land the plane here. You know, obviously all sorts of contact info, and if people want to get connected to your specific ministries and online, through Love Clan, through Pursuit Church Live, through VR Church, we'll include all that in the show notes and things like that. But just to land the plane here, any closing thoughts, DJ?

We're wrapping up. What are you thinking? Um, just one thought I had was I had a friend a couple years ago who said, "DJ, I think in the next ten years you're going to see more digital church plants than you see physical church plants." And this is a couple years ago.

And I agreed with him. I totally thought, yeah, that's true. But I didn't know how that would happen. It just seemed implausible that that would catch on. And here in this COVID era, you know, we're at the brink of a church planting movement like we've never seen before that's going to start in the digital sphere. It's really going to be empowering, and I think it's just going to spread the gospel far and wide. And I think we just need to get out of the way, let people lead, let people start these things. And it's not that we don't have these conversations—theology and ecclesiology, you know, that's great—but at the end of the day, man, let's get moving forward with this digital vision, this virtual reality vision, and let's keep things moving.

Awesome. Angela, as we're wrapping up, any closing thoughts? Similar to DJ, our model at First State Church Live is digital plus. We want people to be in person, but I think DJ is right. Right now we have this incredible opportunity to do digital first. And for the local church, there's a lot of power in that because when you're able to go back into in-person, you will recognize that you have created this incredible relational bond on a daily basis of discipleship. And so I think that's the emerging digital model that I see coming—is that people will be so excited to be together or to start an in-person group in person wherever they're at, whether that's, you know, in China or Uganda, because you'll connect with all sorts of people, right? Dallas, Washington. And so I think church will transform into something powerful, more meaningful, because God has a plan for his church. And I absolutely believe, like, we can be people that bring the kingdom of God into digital ministry. Why wouldn't we do that? Why wouldn't we do that? That's just powerful. So I'll be cheering for anybody who's moving forward and just so happy to be part of the conversation.

That's awesome. And you guys have been great. Um, what path finders, way pavers, whatever the language—pioneers, say that in this space. Love it. JT, you're bobbing your head up and down. What are you thinking as we're wrapping up?

I don't know. I think at this point most of what needs to be said has already been said. But um, just to remember that a lot of the things that whenever you're looking at online church, any criticism you give obviously needs to first be looked at locally. And the same old advice is true—that, you know, let's look at solutions rather than just providing problems. And a lot of the times what we want to do is just shout from the sidelines. Um, and that is, um, kind of ironically, you know, we're kind of like, "Well, I want to discipline this church that's not, you know, doing the way that I think that they should be doing." And the reality is that's what Paul does. I mean, he does write letters to other churches and says, "Hey, you guys, you know, you're doing this wrong and you need to get your act together." And he gives very specific things that they can do, that this is how they can change. Um, even though he doesn't know all the information about that. And so I do want to hear when I hear something from a local church. And I've thought, I've spent a lot of time—I've spent years in a local church really thinking through, like, okay, if we're going to do this in a digital space, what does that look like? What does it need to change? How can it be better? How can it, you know, how can we affect lives in a way that we want to be able to do through the local? And so, um, yeah, I, I, I, it honestly, I'm gonna—it's gonna go both ways. Like, we need to see things that we're not doing in a local church, and we need to see things that we're doing in an online church that need to take notes from the local church. Um, but the reality is that we are all the church. Like, the body of believers is the church, not this, you know, "Well, this is a group of people and this is a group of people." Like, all of us together collectively all have the same goal. We all have the thing that we want to see happen—our people moving closer towards a relationship with Jesus and to further the relationship with Jesus so that they can continue to grow the kingdom. We all have that same goal. And that's so, it's not like one versus the other—online versus, you know, local church or whatever. And if the online church is able to do some things better than the physical church and the physical church is able to do some things better than the online church, that doesn't mean one of us is doing something incorrect. That just means that we have different, you know, one is the hand and one's the feet, and we have just different expressions of how we're going to do this together. And the reality is that as long as Christ is the head of our church, then we're going to continue to move in the same direction. And that doesn't need to be at, you know, like, this against each other. Um, it means that we can really—let's look at how we can effectively help each other do that better. And if the church is divided, then, you know, the house is divided, and that's not gonna stand. That's not going to help. So let's continue to encourage each other and to move in a direction that sees even reconciliation from what we've seen in the past where people say, "Well, I feel very judged by the church." Okay, well, that's something that we need to—we need to actually talk about. Let's work through that so that we don't have those same mistakes happen when we go into online. So, yeah, I just, I very much am, as somebody that has worked in multiple churches and it's, I still attend a local church—I care about the local church, and I also care about online church, and I want to see that succeed too. I don't know. I just feel like I don't understand the tension. It doesn't make sense to me. But I do want to speak to it because I know it's there. And so, you know, let's talk about it. But um, I would just challenge anybody that has that kind of tension, like, why? Why do we feel that if Christ is still the head of what we're doing and we're just going forward with what we feel called doing, then let's then let's kind of do like the church did there. We say, "Well, I mean, test it and see." You know, the Holy Spirit is on these people, and so I, we can't deny what God's doing. And I've seen God work in the online church, so I can't deny that it's that God is in it, you know? So, yeah, just to that's all I would say. Experience too. You need, you have to experience it. You know, there's some things, um, just like that they had their theology and they said, "Well, they're not circumcised," and so on. And it's like, "Hey, I don't know what to say other than that the Holy Spirit's on these people." And so it's because God is in it. And so I don't, I can't, like, are you gonna fight against God? You know, and if you are, then it's not going to stand. God's going to do what he's going to do regardless. And so just let it happen, you know? And that's what I'd say with online. You know, and there's a lot of preconceived notions. There's a lot of misunderstandings or not even just recognizing digital culture. A lot of it, you know, I don't, I hesitate to even say this—a lot of the questions really come out of ignorance of what's possible with the technology and not understanding the relational aspect of it. You know, just every conversation I have is all centered around, "But you don't know who these people are." It's like, "But you can. You just need to invest the time into it." We've beat that up, so I don't want to revisit it. But, um, Angela, JT, DJ, man, thanks for jumping on this. Vince Pogba, this is a great conversation. I will forever have DJ and VR his image burned in my head. Love it. And looking forward to do more conversations with him on the podcast in VR. So for JT, for Angela, for DJ, this is Jeff of The Church Digital and Stadium Church Planting. Thanks for being here once again. We'll see you next time on the show. You all have a good day.