EP310 - Digital & Mental Health - Isolation vs Solitude with Nate Graybill

You'll never know that if you can be fully loved until you allow yourself to be fully led. I mean, so, you know, God fully knows you and loves you, so you got to open up those hidden parts of your life to him. And quite honestly, he's put people out there that will love you in Christ regardless of what's there, and you're isolating.

So welcome to the Church Digital podcast. Through this podcast we'll talk about the technological innovations within the church, but more than tech for tech's sake, we'll address deeper questions. Is disciplemaking possible digitally? How should we approach the digital mission field? Can a biblically grounded church operate in digital space? And where does the metaverse and artificial intelligence fit into all of this?

Whether you're a big or small church, the Church Digital's goal is to help churches like yours learn to be a multiplying church digitally and physically. And now here's your host, Jeff Reed.

All right, hey, it's episode three... oh man, I should always look this up before I get started doing this. I did it again. Is this 310? This is like the worst start to any podcast ever. I don't know what number I'm on. Um, it is 310. I'm gonna pretend it's 310. We're gonna say it's 310, and if not, we're gonna lie in the data to make sure it's 310. We'll skip a number here. It's okay. Nobody keeps them straight anyway. It's episode 310 of the Church Digital podcast. Jeff here. Um, we're gonna have a fun day. Like, it's going to be a fun conversation here. Uh, we're in the season of digital and mental health, and we've got a couple extra guests in into the conversation today.

Um, by the way, we are broadcasting this live on Twitch. Uh, we're doing this season every Tuesday, I think at one o'clock for the most part. You can go to twitch.tv/thechurchdigital to find that out. And um, more importantly, if you want to engage us in community and start talking about this, uh, this podcast, questions on this or anything else, feel free to swing over to our Discord community. It's discord.thechurchdigital. Discord.thechurchdigital. If you have a Discord account, uh, great, you can log in there. If you don't have a Discord account, if you don't even know what Discord is, come hang out with us, kick the tires, explore it, maybe learn something along the way about how asynchronous community can work, um, even in, uh, making disciples and disciplemaking relationships digitally.

And so excited about some of the things that are happening, uh, here with the season. Uh, we have been leaning on our co-host here, Megan Carter, who is the brainchild of, uh, digital and, um, uh, maybe I should say the parent brainchild would be the opposite way. Who is the author? Who's the brains? We'll say it that way. She's the brains behind this. Megan, thanks for coming back on the podcast.

Yeah, I'm excited to be here. And I, uh, we talked about earlier, you know, a couple episodes ago, inner critic. Like, every time you say those things, I'm like, my inner critic is like, "No, no, that's just had a few ideas. It's not really that big of a thing." So when the inner critic, you know, barks at you, just say, "Shut up, Todd. Go back to your corner."

We discussed that last week, and uh, it was funny. We, I was actually Andy Mage was the guest a couple weeks ago, right? And, uh, you know, he names his inner critic Todd. And so therefore I've named my inner critic Todd. And I told Andy at least three times since that I've been like, "Shut up, Todd. Shut up, Todd. Nobody cares about you, Todd." Uh, and so that's been fun.

So, uh, there are some other people we care about in this conversation. Uh, we've got Nate Grey Bill, who, uh, Nate, it's been a minute since I've seen we did, um, a lot with Nate back in the, uh, Leadership Network days. I, I want to say, uh, in some learning communities, and he's really been outspoken, uh, at least in our context, about, uh, discipleship and recovery. Nate is the executive director, maybe butchering the title, of Regeneration, a Christ-centered recovery material, uh, that's actually based out of, uh, Dallas, out of his church, um, Watermark Dallas. And so, uh, Nate, thanks for jumping on the podcast here and joining the conversation. Uh, welcome to be here. I'm excited to talk with you about this topic.

And um, I'll tell Todd in my mind to keep silent as well.

Yeah, so just shut up, Todd. I feel bad because actually I do know a guy named Todd, and, um, you know, he runs sound at my church. And this weekend I saw Todd, so I stopped and had like a conversation with Todd. And in the back of my head, the only thing I heard, I didn't hear what he was saying. I just heard, "Shut up, Todd. Shut up, Todd," while this guy's talking. And so it's like it's gone too far.

So Todd is the name of our founding pastor here at Watermark too. And so there are times where I have to tell him to be quiet as well, maybe a little nicer than "shut up, Todd" in that one situation.

Yeah, with a little more grace than I'm probably capable of.

Awesome. And, uh, if you're watching on YouTube or if you're listening on podcast and you're hearing that, uh, that laugh, that is only one person capable of laughing that way. J-Mo, the Jason Morris, is jumping on this conversation too. Um, Jason is actually a fan of the Regeneration material. Jason, you want to maybe talk a little bit about what Regeneration has been doing with you and with your church?

Absolutely. Uh, the church here that we landed in in Georgetown, um, ended up using, well, they're big users of Regeneration as part of their discipleship curriculum. Which when I went to their membership class, I realized that Regeneration was not what I thought it was. Where I thought what it was, you know, addiction recovery, and what I realized was they think of it as recovery as discipleship. Where, you know, all of us might be addicted to people pleasing or control or anger, there's all sorts of fruits of the flesh we all know them, struggle with them, but don't consider them to be, uh, we don't consider ourselves addicted to those particular besetting sins. But as I thought of it, I was like, "Well, what's the difference between that recovery and the truth is in my mind there isn't?" So that took me on a journey of exploring some of the things that I struggle with as an addiction recovery discipleship path, and it's been really fascinating to go through with that particular lens. Um, and it's really helped my relationships with my wife and my kids, and it's been really great. I've got a meeting tonight actually that I'm going to be going to my regen group. And yeah, it was a little jarring at first to like attend what would be considered like a twelve-step program, but put in the context of things that we all struggle with, it made nothing but sense. So anyway, I just wanted to be in on this conversation because Nate's here and he's the author of the book, so I was like, "Dude, I want to be in on this. This is gonna be fun."

Hey, Nate, where do people find out more information about, um, Regeneration or, you know, getting Regeneration connected into their church?

Yeah, well, if you're just a participant and you're looking for a place to go through it, um, you can go to regenerationrecovery.org, and there's a group locator there where we can find groups all over the country. And some churches are running virtual groups, so there's even a virtual search tab. So if you're not close to a local, you know, chapter of it, you can join a virtual group.

If you're a church, you know, looking to bring it, or even an organization, we can now run Regeneration, you know, in nonprofits and other places. If you want to find more about bringing Regeneration to your organization, you can go to watermarkresources.com, and that's designed for organizations looking to launch the ministry. We've got full support that's free, you know, to end users. We provide direct coaching to all point leaders, you know, of the ministries wherever they launch, whether it's in counseling centers or, you know, prisons or inpatient treatment centers or churches or even community centers. We've got them running in now, um, and so all that's free. It's underwritten by Watermark. And, um, just grateful to help, you know, be part of the work that God's doing in people's lives. He's recovering all of humanity to the image and glory of God. I mean, that's what we were created as image bearers. And so all that Regeneration does is identify those things that get in the way of your relationship with God and others and gives you the biblical path for, you know, dealing with them and bringing them before the cross and letting Christ deal with it. So grateful to be a part of it, thankful that Jason's on the call and going through. And I told, I was telling everybody on the call before we went live that I probably need to go through again myself, you know, to pull back another layer. So yeah, it's deep stuff.

Yeah, I'm curious though, with your, because you mentioned virtual, right, which to me isn't virtual, it's just as real as everything else, but you know, that's a different conversation. Um, what for you are the differences between the digital expression of regen versus the physical expression of regen? Does it work better? I'm sure it works better in some ways and worse in others, but I'm curious what your experience has been. And then the followup question would be, how could folks that listen to this podcast get involved in something like that?

Yeah, um, well, you know, initially the criticism from our church was, "It's not real because it's online." And, uh, you know, I think when we started it during the pandemic, people that were forced to go online from face to face, that wasn't necessarily a great, you know, experience at the beginning. But as we matured and it became, and we people started meeting back in person, and then the online became an option for folks, you know, and they were volitionally opting in, it really changed the dynamic. And so we learned a lot about how to build relationships online.

You know, going through, um, we found that attendance, uh, actually retention and attendance was higher because everybody's accessible. Like, people don't get caught in traffic, you know, often times they're calling from places where they feel comfortable, like their home, uh, and whether it's true or not, they feel a little bit safer, you know, in a place where they're comfortable. And if there's a screen there, you know, I might not bump into somebody at the store, you know, uh, you know, that I've seen face to face. And so, um, so for us we give the first seats to our Watermark members who can't make it to our ministry night. So it actually covers some logistics. It opens the door to people that can't make it that are homebound or traveling or, you know, have jobs that, you know, move them or they move away. Um, but then it also opens up to people that can't participate because they're not close to anyone.

And what we found is that, um, it's working great. Like, um, you know, they've learned how to build community. Uh, we require that people in addition to the group find a local mentor, hopefully within their church. So we're creating, we certainly see the value of that personal connection, ability to meet one-on-one, and not isolating the recovery. We're gonna talk about isolation here a little bit because a lot of people want to isolate recovery, but we kind of force that through a local mentor relationship. And, um, and then we train the mentors as well as they go through in addition to, you know, the process there. So you want a combination of both. But what digital does is help cross some of those divides. And, you know, we used to get the criticism that people aren't as authentic online. It's too easy for them to lie. And I'm like, "You know, in person people hide behind masks just..."

As much as you know that you know it doesn't, you know, authenticity and being known is a personal choice regardless of the environment that you're in. And so, you know, y'all may be lying to me right now and I might be lying to you, but hopefully we're not. We're being authentic. And we can do that even face to face. You know, and so, um, hopefully we are authentic so we don't end up on the paper somewhere someday, because that's what happens when you isolate. It takes over, you know, starts to rule in your life and then affects others. And we're seeing pastors fall left and right because they are isolated in the church. But that's a choice. That's a personal choice, even of senior pastors and elders. You're not called to live that way. So hopefully that rolls us into our topic. That was an incredible transition. I was about to, I was about to give you credit. So, so well done. That, I appreciate that. We are here in the season of digital mental health. Uh, today we're talking about isolation versus solitude. And, uh, you know what, Megan, why don't, since you were the, whatever the brainchild thing I was trying to say earlier and failed miserably, shut up Todd. Um, why don't you maybe explain here what you were thinking as you were describing this, uh, the isolation versus solitude comparison?

Yeah, so a big piece came from, and I honestly can't remember exactly where I heard it from, but it really opened my eyes because you think of isolation, isolation and solitude, and sometimes people will clump them together or think like, well, I'm going to go off by myself and that's just what it is. Um, and what the phrase that I heard, and I think this is a great way to kind of dive into it, is it was, it's isolation is when you put yourself in a box, but solitude is when you put your distractions in a box. And that was like a game changer for me, realizing, oh, they are two different things. And so I think that's where I want to start is, you know, what comes to mind when you hear those two words, isolation and solitude? What do you see as the difference between them? Um, and then maybe just the first things that come to mind when you think of those?

Well, uh, you know, I do think isolation carries with it a, um, you know, a component of detachment. You know, um, where you're trying to really break away from some reality in life. And so for me, when I'm isolating, I've had a long day, I go home, I'll isolate by maybe vegging out on a movie, you know, and kind of escaping, you know, in some capacity. I'm detaching from something that's a reality somewhere. And, um, and honestly, you know, being in recovery, I honestly think that, um, ninety-nine, actually probably one hundred percent of the people, of the Christians that come into recovery, and probably the non-Christians as well, they're coming in because they've isolated a part of their life, you know, from reality or from God or from others. You know, we were created to be fully known and fully loved and to bear the image of God. And so, um, and so, you know, I think what happens is people start to struggle and they tuck it away and become, they detach a part of their life and they isolate that part of their life from the community and from God. And over time, you know, sin, sin grows in the dark, right? Gives birth to death is what the scripture says. And, um, and so that eventually it will overtake them. So I would think isolation it carries that detachment from reality, whereas solitude, like you said, I do think what solitude is more of along the line of is removing distractions, you know, hopefully for the sake of intimacy, you know, with God. Like, you know, you see in scripture all the time that Jesus went away to solitary places, invited the disciples to go, you know, to quiet places, um, just to be alone with God and allow him to speak into those areas of life, you know, where you can listen and be undistracted, not pulled away. And so that's, that's probably the, I would say that in my mind, that's the difference between the two.

Yeah, and I think that that's so important for us to be very intentional with finding solitude, and especially, you know, as we're talking about people in digital ministry, we're connected to our phones twenty-four seven. Like, that's the way we feel that we have to. And so to be able to set that, I think we've talked about it before, like set the Do Not Disturb or set a way to pull yourself away just for a little bit. Because, again, we gave the, we have the best role model in Jesus in scripture of him saying, you know, saying I need to go away. Like, all these things, he has all these miracles happening. He's like, I've got to go find some rest. I've got to find some solitude, find some time with, with his, you know, with God. And that gave him the strength, the energy to come back to be able to do the ministry he, you know, he's called to. And I think we have to follow his lead in that. And I think that that's so important to find those times. Um, and that's why I think this conversation is really important too, because it's not just going away and, like you said, like going and watching movies and just putting, you know, kind of not where you're thinking, not where you're having to, like, really be intentional. But making sure you're intentional with those things. That's the key to it.

I've got a question on that, and it is an honest question. I'm not leading to anything. I honestly don't know the answer. Um, because, mate, you just described something and you mentioned something to Megan around, um, how we tend to escape with the examples you made are digital. So, um, is it possible that being connected to your phone could be an act of isolation? One, um, is it possible? And I'm trying to think of a close analog in, uh, the way that ministry tends to play out. Is it possible for public ministry to be an act of isolation too? So I'm just asking the question because those thoughts, those connections came to me as you guys were describing it. Because I love your definition, Megan, and it just made so much sense the moment you said it was, I'm putting myself in a box versus putting my distractions in a box. Um, some, and I know this from personal experience, that some of the most isolating times can be big public ministry, yeah, um, in the analog world. And I'm curious how that plays out in the digital side. So anyway, I'm curious what you guys think about that.

Yeah, I think for me, you know, I personally think that people can isolate in any component of their life, you know, um, you can do it in a big public ministry, you know, you can do it in a marriage, you know, you can do it in a family, you can do it in an activity that you love, you know, um, and so, and I also think that I'm, I also think that you can invite God or other people into any of those arenas as well. So I think that isolation is more of a personal choice, you know, to be known and loved in the environments that you're in. And, and oftentimes things get in the way, like especially with public, like I'm a pastor's kid, you know, um, and I've been, I've been now on staff here at Watermark for eighteen years. And, um, and then, you know, lead a ministry that's had plenty of leaders in it. And I think even in my role, like there's a temptation for me to isolate, uh, parts of my life when I'm struggling, you know, um, because I want to keep up a certain image or because of my role or I don't want to be known, you know, I don't want, I scare the ramifications on that. And that's even more so when you have a, I would, I would probably say the bigger the platform, the more opportunity you have to hide behind it. Um, but being fully known and loved is your own choice. God calls us, you know, to be fully known and fully loved by him. In fact, in scripture, you see the Apostle John and First John writing to the church, and he says, the things that we see, we've seen and heard, we proclaimed to you also so that you might have fellowship with us. And our fellowship is with God the Father and his Son Jesus Christ. So they're proclaiming the gospel to invite people into the fellowship and invite people in the fellowship of the Trinity, you know, to be, and, and he said, we write these things so that our joy may be made complete. He goes, this is the completion of joy is in the fellowship of God together, being fully known and fully loved. And later on in that chapter, he goes on, you know, we're to walk in the light as he is in the light. And the, you know, the blood of Christ, the Son, cleanses us from all unrighteousness. So we're called, we're invited into this fellowship of being fully known and fully loved. And you can choose to do that at any time in any form. And we can also isolate in any form and through any medium. Um, at least in my life, so I can do it. I can certainly do it online. I can do it in relationships. I can do it in any capacity because my flesh wants to distance itself from the resources that God's given me to connect with him. It's always pulling away from that, always is distracting from that.

Well, I mean, arguably, let me just ask, like, you could, my understanding here now is that you can isolate in a crowded room. Like, it's the time by being inauthentic, by putting up masks and fronts. And so it's not as much about being alone as it is, um, being disingenuous, which, uh, isolates who you really are in that moment and prevents people from A, knowing you, and B, being there to help you. Like, am I reading that right?

Yes, absolutely. I mean, that's a, yeah, isolation is cordoning off a part of your life, if not all of your life, you know, in the relationships that God's given you. And there's all kinds of distractions that compete for that. I mean, Satan wants to throw all that stuff in front of you all the time, whether it's media, it might be relationships, it might be crowds, it might be position. Like, he's just trying to pull you off the track of that intimacy, which is the thing that fuels really that encounter and joy in the Lord. And actually, it's that joy in the Lord that then produces the Great Commission. You operate out of that.

Yeah, I was going to add that, especially when you're in ministry, like it feels like you can isolate so much more in those crowded rooms, like you guys were saying. And part of it, I think, has to do with we feel like we have an expectation set upon us. Um, and so this is whether you're meeting with people in person or you have a presence online. And if people think, oh, you have it all together, you never have a bad day, like you don't have any of these things, like that we all struggle with, then it's like, oh, I, how can I, you know, gracefully show that side of it, but also, you know, be able to be there for other people? And I think that sometimes we think we have to be stronger than we are to say, no, I've got this. Like, I'm here for you and always being there for the other people. So then yourself isn't, you're not getting, you know, that taken care of. Um, so you have to find again intentional ways, whether it's through solitude or through, you know, connecting with other people that you trust that you can, you know, share those things with too. I think that's a, that's a big, um, difficult piece of being in any kind of ministry is finding ways to be able to share those things. Um, but also not just like blurting everything out, because not everybody needs to know all the details of your life, right? But you need to be able to be authentic through that. So that's a, that's a hard piece. And if somebody is, if you feel like you're being put on a pedestal of like, you've got it all together, it's like, oh, no, no, no, no, I don't have it all together. Well, you certainly need some people in your life that you're fully authentic with, you know? And, um, and I do think that there's a little bit of pressure. But what's interesting is that you know, I found that each time that a pastor or myself or someone chooses to be authentic with their struggles, it actually, uh, draws people closer. It makes them feel safer, like they can connect, you know, uh, someone understanding like they can't.

Relate or you don't get me or I need to put on, you know, I need to be like you, you know, that works against what the church has created to be because what they feel like people don't understand them in the church and so when reality is they're sitting next to somebody that's been through the same thing or a pastor who's been through the same thing it's not even willing to share his story, you know. Um, certainly I don't think that a pastor needs to share every detail with everybody in the congregation every time but he certainly needs to have be willing to let others that are close speak into those parts of his life and then at times widen the circle, you know, when necessary. So yeah, oh I agree and I think that that's like something we can all share at some level. Um, I know that's a big piece of why I got so heavily into mental health things is because I struggled with it myself so being able to share that part of my story now, not everyone knows every part of my story but they know enough to be able to relate and be like, oh yeah, I've been there too. And I think that that's something, you know, really important. And so it kind of leads me to my next question of, you know, do you have a personal story, um, experience when you felt isolated and like how did that affect you emotionally and mentally, um, in that time of your life?

Yeah, I mean probably my best example was, uh, so I was part of the church here when we started up years ago. Um, I, you know, I really surrendered my life to the Lord, you know, several years before the church launched. We're part of the church, you know, when it started. I was leading, uh, I wasn't on staff. I was a lay person. I was leading the ministry here at the church. Um, and then stumbled across some pornography and, um, didn't share that, you know, with others at the time. And a year later I was back into an addiction that I had when I was younger. And, uh, it's interesting because I still did daily quiet times. I still journaled, you know, and I was completely detached myself, you know, from really what was happening during that time, not honest with myself, certainly not honest with my wife. And, uh, my health got worse. The way I related to people got worse. Um, um, and then and then eventually, you know, um, I got online one night and saw more than enough to scare me into reality and say, hey, this is not going to be the last. I got to stop telling myself this is going to be the last time. This is not going to be the last time if I keep isolating. I need to let other people into this. I need my wife's help. I need my church's help. Um, took me a while to get to my church itself, but you know, I woke my wife up and told her. And, um, you know, she was clearly hurt and upset. Uh, she figured out a way to see all that I'd seen, you know, and then and then widen the circle, appropriately biblically, to say, hey, look, we need to go talk with our pastor, Todd. There we go again, our pastor Todd. Uh, and, uh, and we confessed there. And really, you know, the invitation from the church was to join a community and be authentic. And we, my recovery didn't happen in a twelve-step program or anywhere else. It happened in a small group working through scripture. And we did an inventory on my life and uncovered, unpacked all that had been stuffed down and isolated and uncovered the root of my addiction, where that came from. Um, and, uh, and when I realized that my porn addiction was really about me receiving validation from others, I wanted people to, you know, to affirm me, to think, you know, to pursue me, uh, to be exalted, you know, and I was whenever I was afraid of failure, when I was not feeling affirmed in life, I would run to a fantasy world where I was always affirmed, always accepted, always approved. I didn't have to think about anybody but myself. And so that's why that proclivity kind of worked for me. But when I figured out it was an idolatry issue, that I wanted to be worshiped and pursued as opposed to me pursuing the Lord, you know, and trying to glorify him, it changed everything for me in terms of that heart shift. And, um, and so at that point, what was ironic was, you know, when we first came to our pastor and we said, hey, is there any other couples here that can walk through, you know, this struggle with us, you know, he said, oh, this is a big issue in our church. It's affecting so many marriages. He said we just don't know who anyone is because nobody's talked about it, you know. And so we were literally the first ones to come. And, uh, and, uh, and so, um, and that was, you know, twenty-four years ago. But so, um, but this process of being fully known and fully loved by God's people and, you know, learning how to work through my emotions because I'd stuffed them, you know, I'd medicated them, learning how to talk about when I was feeling disappointed or sad or to journal or be honest about feelings towards God when I wasn't even feeling my feelings, I was escaping my feelings. Like all of that was an encounter to be invited into fellowship with the living God. And, you know, over the course of the next few years I just journaled for years and then we started to share our stories because we didn't want others to feel like they were all alone. And so that invitation that I talked to and talked about in First John, you know, chapter one, verses three through four, you know, um, we just started inviting others into that fellowship. And that's how all that got started. And and so all that to say is I still, you know, I still there's a temptation in me to isolate from God parts of my life. I just because I don't want to, you know, I just want to escape. I don't, I don't have to deal with things going on. Like it's just, I enjoy watching a movie. I don't want to have to deal with, you know, an emotion that's there or maybe I'm detached from it already when I come in. I've got fleshly desires in there as well. And you know, and and then even then if I blow it, you know, I've got a group of guys around me that I and my wife that I want to confess to. But there's a temptation there. I, you know, if there's if there's a time when I've, I've there's been two relapses over the last twenty-four years that have been short-lived. But you know, you run through this process of, hey, is my position more important than my intimacy with God? You know, this is God's ministry. You know, this is, this is, uh, his church. You know, if I'm not the right person for this anymore and needs to get the right person in place. And and so you come to a decision over, hey, either I'm going to be fully known and loved and authentic, you know, in my walk with the Lord and that, or I'm not. I'm going to try and hold on to this idol, which is ministry, hiding behind, you know, you can you can hide behind the idol of ministry really easy. And God wants us to walk authentically with him. And when that happens there's joy and freedom and relationships and invitations into things that you don't even know. That's, I, I never got into, I did not want my resume in ministry to be a porn addict. That was not my plan, especially somebody that wanted validation. But where there's no room for me in that, it's God's story now, you know, and now I get to be engaged in life-changing ministry all over the world because I've just accepted invitations, you know, and so I'm just grateful for the invitations that he's given me. And, um, pray that I wouldn't, my flesh wouldn't take over, you know, and I, I pray that you would spare me because I'm certainly capable of all the things that, uh, that everyone else is still. But I'm thankful that he's given me twenty-two years of freedom in a place where I can be fully known and fully loved regardless, you know.

It's a prayer. Let me ask, um, how do you, because I hear isolation, uh, I hear being transparent and authentic. Um, I'm also a huge introvert like, um, I just am, am very, and and a lot of our digital ministry people are. Um, how do we, um, gauge, uh, introvertedness compared to isolation? Because, you know, last night I was in, I was in a meeting and, um, uh, Andy and I were with a potential partner. And, um, you know, Andy presented very authentic, very, you know, opened up on a lot of the stuff. Um, honestly, it was the end of the day confession hour for me. I was tired. Like it had been, it was like meeting nine on a Monday and it was like seven thirty, eight o'clock at night. And I just was like, man, I just don't have it in me to like really flesh out my soul at this moment to in front of a bunch of strangers. And so I, I pulled some punches. And, uh, at the end of the meeting, some people, you know, graciously called me out and said, hey, Jeff, you were like kind of more business oriented than than authentic in this meeting. Are you feeling okay? And my response was actually no, I'm tired. I, I want to go like hug my family now, bye. Um, but you know, and and honestly, like in this, I'm I'm kind of like half jesting but half serious. How much of this was you know, one versus the other? Um, I, I don't know. Is that, does that question make sense?

It's a great question. And I actually think it's, it's, it's a reality because I think some of the, you know, sometimes, you know, is, um, introverts really get their energy from being alone. That's where you get re-energized, right? Extroverts really get their energy from being around people and out and about. But I think that's different than isolation. So, you know, um, so you can be an introvert and need time to recharge and recharge by isolating or try and recharge by isolating, you know, um, so I would say I would say solitude is removing distractions, all the things that wear you out so that you can, uh, you can be alone with God, you know, quite honestly, it's, it's to be able to listen and connect with him. And so that's, that's much different than I just need a break and a recharge and, you know, get away, you know, from people. And so you can be completely introverted and isolate and not seek any solitude in the Lord, you know, um, and, um, and so I think they're two different things. Like I think Jeff Reed needs to get re, I'm, I'm borderline introvert. I'm right in the middle, you know, so I can, uh, my wife is very introverted. And I've got a daughter that's very introverted. My wife would presume to stay home all day all the time, you know, and so for an introvert, um, I've got to set aside time to really focus on my relationship with God and not just isolate in, you know, it by myself, you know, and try and re-energize other ways. And probably introverts more than extroverts need to be intentional about moving towards relationships, you know, um, and that might even be scheduled, it, you know, or setting up group times so that you don't completely isolate in general. And that can be online or in person, you know, quite honestly, like, um, so, um, so for me, I've got guys that I meet with every week, you know, every Wednesday morning at six thirty. You know, they're in my life and we meet every week and talk through all life and what we're learning. We'll go through stuff together. Um, I've got a, I'm, I'm borderline introvert, but that's, that's different. Like I actually designate a time. I learned early in my, in my marriage when we had young kids that the only quiet time that happens in my home is at five in the morning. And so I've gotten up at five in the morning every day for, oh, let me put, honestly, ninety percent of the days, you know, uh, where I, it's intentional, you know, of just getting time with the Lord. It's got to be quiet. It's got to be a place where I can listen. My worship style is contemplative. So the best place for me to connect with the Lord is in my lazy boy, you know, at five in the morning when there's no other distractions. For some people, because they connect with God in other ways, they need to get on their worship music at that time of the day. For some people, they need to go on a walk outside, you know, it's the things that stir your affections and connect you with him. And so that's really what solitude is.

It's finding that place that God's wired you to connect with him intimately, you know, and be fully known where you can listen to him, receive from him, pour out back to him through whatever means is there. And that's different than isolation. Like, I am—I don't, I don't make this about me, but like, I'm, I'm when I tell people I'm an introvert, they laugh at me because it's like, "Jeff, you stand up and you talk in front of hundreds of people and you do all this stuff and you're outgoing and blah blah blah." All that's a defense mechanism because I'm a raving introvert. And so when I'm my extrovertedness, I last about five minutes and then I'm literally in the back of the room asleep, unconscious, because all my energy is spent. As a result of that, there are seasons where I'm very comfortable and open sharing and talking with anybody. Hey, my life's an open book, ask me anything you want. And I had lunch yesterday with one of these guys that holds me accountable and talks to me, and I've got four of those guys in my life. And as a digital guy, all four of those people live in Miami. So I'm sitting face to face across from these people and having that level of intimacy and accountability. So that piece, I'm actually very comfortable with it—being in solitude and connecting with others and connecting with God. It's the—and maybe it's the, you know, last night I told Todd to shut up because of the inner critic after this meeting where it's like, "Okay, what did I do? Was I actually too business-oriented and wasn't reading the room right? Was that justified? Was that not justified?" But I do, I'm wrestling between how much of it is inner critic and how much of it is me having an issue that I do need to address and navigating that. The solitude piece, I understand, and I've made strides this year. This year has been so hard. I've made strides this year to get that solitude piece more in place. It's the, am I still isolating parts of my life inappropriately? That's some of what I'm wrestling with.

Yeah, I think regardless of whether you're introverted or extroverted, avoiding isolation is just being intentional about relationships with God and others in whatever environment you're most suited to be in. So those are separate components. You know, as an introvert, you're always going to want to kind of move out of the crowd to re-energize. Like, I get the same way. If I'm talking in front of a bunch of people all day long, I go home, sit in my chair, and I'm asleep in two minutes because it just wore me out. I work with a couple people where they're ready to go for another four days because they're extroverts. But always just be intentional about the relationships God's given in your life to be known, fully known and fully loved, and get in time with him.

Yeah, I find it really interesting that for most people on this call, we are introverted extroverts because I am the same way. But there are times that I can find, like, I can be rejuvenized by being around other people, but it's around a certain group of people. So it's really interesting how those play, and I think it kind of goes back to what you were saying, Nate, is like finding and knowing who you are, how God wired you, finding ways that you do find solitude with him. So I love nature. I'm one that does like to really find that solitude there. There's a little lake that I can go to and I turn my phone off pretty much. I can sit there, I can read through scripture or a book and then walk around that lake, which is beautiful and gorgeous pretty much any time of the year, even if it's freezing. Somehow it's still pretty. So I go around that and like that can bring me—I feel so much closer to God in that moment—and that's the way that I'm able to go out. So there are days that I'm like, I can realize that I've kind of hit my quota for people or just life and things going on, and almost that overstimulation feeling, and then I'm like, "Okay, I need to go be outside. I need to do this." And that helps me. It also refocuses how I'm thinking and perceiving things. It gives me some time. So I would love, like you talked a little bit, but what are ways that you do find solitude or maybe you've heard of other people that they can find solitude in their own lives?

Well, I'm going to tell myself a little bit here, and that I, you know, I wish I would just practice the Sabbath more of what it was intended to be. You know, a lot of times I'll view my Sunday as a day or my Sabbath day, whether that's a Saturday or Sunday, as me time, you know, as opposed to God time, and really be intentional about that. I think God commanded it for a reason, and I'm probably one of the bigger violators on just not taking advantage of that invitation, which is really what it is. So I think with that I'll say is that I actually think you need to be intentional. You know, at least in my life anyway, I can't speak to others—it's busy enough and there's enough responsibilities and tasks and people pulling at my time, whether it's at work or at home with needs and relationships. Then if you're not intentional with it and not proactive with it, it's going to get away from you. And Satan wants to isolate you. You know, a sheep that's isolated is lunch. That's what's going to happen. It's going to get eaten by the wolf. And so I think just a regular rhythm—daily, probably a daily rhythm, sometime even taking daily moments, a weekly rhythm, and then there are seasons where you probably need to schedule some time away.

So I went, I've got a sabbatical coming up, my first time. And here's this telling as well: it's my first sabbatical in eighteen years of ministry. And that's partly, you know, organization and where they were for a season, and partly me. Like, I probably wouldn't choose to take one because I get energy from work. There's a part of that that's a component of me. But a couple years ago I did take a month because I was feeling very tired. And what was funny is that I didn't realize how tired I was. So I went away to a place where there was no digital world. Like, I couldn't. I took my Bible, fasted for a couple days. And you see in scripture God calls us away to do those things. Like, Christ did that all the time. And those are the times the Spirit leads you in the wilderness for testing and vetting and all those things that he does just to draw you deeper. So I took a couple books, I read a little bit. There was a day I kid you not—I'm a six-hour night sleeper. So I go to bed at eleven, wake up at five, and that's been my rhythm for, I'm now over fifty, it's been my rhythm for the last several number of years. I know it's not healthy. It's the way my clock works. But on that trip, one day I slept eighteen hours. One day. That's how tired I was. And so all I'm saying is that it got away from me and I was in a very vulnerable position, I think. And God just used that month to really draw me deeper into a relationship with him. And now I'm two years removed from that. I can feel, you know, life catching up to me again, and I'm like, "Oh, it's probably time for me to disconnect." So whether you got sabbatical or not, I think it takes intentionality of going away. And hopefully if I'm listening to the Lord regularly, I'm listening to his call to go away. I might just again push him off to the side and go, "But I've got these task lists that need to get done." But I think he's there every day. He certainly called us to set aside a day for him. And I think there are seasons where you've got to be intentional to pull away. And that's probably true not just in relationship with Christ but in your most important relationships, whether it's your marriage or kids.

So let me pull the thread on pull away because I'm willing to wager the majority of people listening to this don't have a sabbatical. Like, we're bivocational, non-church staff people. I mean, my first—it's my first coming up.

Yeah, I had a fifteen-year church staff career. I never had a sabbatical. So I get it. Congratulations, by the way.

I honestly would love that. But what does, you know, let's get practical here a little bit. What does pulling away, what does something like this look like for somebody that's got a nine-to-five job, a spouse, and two kids at home?

Yeah, I think first of all, communication. You know, listening to the Lord, communicating, setting up a rhythm in your own family and life, I think is important. So if you've got believers in the home, just saying, "Hey, let's honor what the Lord's called us to do in terms of Sabbath." I mean, in terms of a Sabbath, just taking a Sabbath rest. Being honest about a rhythm. And then I think most people—not all, but the majority probably—people that are on this, you know, working some of the time, that your company does allow, you know, vacation time. Or even if you take a vacation, maybe taking some time, a day or something, where you're able to get away. So it's about really you being intentional and communicating with those you love and then allowing those that you love the freedom to do the same so that they can connect with the Lord. So I just think you've got to be purposeful about it. If you're not, life catches up with you too much. And so I think that's really what the Sabbath command is calling us to do: be purposeful, set aside time for the Lord so you can focus on him and listen and rest in him. Like, that was created for you as a respite to be fully known and loved and rest.

Yeah, I love that you took it to Sabbath because I think that's so important. And sometimes we're like, "Oh yeah, it's we have a Sabbath. We go to church on Sundays." And I work on Sundays because I work at a church, so I have to find a different time and be intentional that way. And I think it's so just, I don't know, it's really important to yes be intentional, but also like throw off expectations of what you thought the Sabbath was supposed to be. So we always have these ideas of like, "We're supposed to do this, this, and this," or "The Sabbath is supposed to look like this on a Sunday." And if you work on a Sunday or if you do your ministry on a Sunday or like digitally online, like you're on Sundays or whatever day it may be, like find another time. Like set aside, put that in your calendar. And if you can't do a full day, do what you can. So I think it's like really taking ourselves out of the box and saying, "Okay, let me find what I have right now." And if it's a few hours that I have this time that I can set aside, then be intentional, find specific things like diving deeper into the word or finding people who can help pour into you in whatever way that may look like. And I think really if we can break up with expectations in those instances, that really can change it. It kind of gives ourselves permission to be able to do those things a little freer, to find that solitude a little freer, and to remember, like you were saying, Nate, like in scripture we see Jesus all the time. He went and found solitude. And if you even go back to the beginning, like God had a day of rest. I don't think that was unintentional for us to see. Like, we were designed to find rest. And in the culture we're in, we want to go way too fast and we don't ever feel like we can stop. So you're going to hit a point and either your—

Body is going to shut down or you know something like that's going to happen where it's going to make you find some solitude. Um, but it might go into that isolation, so that's where it's really intentional, be proactive um when it comes to these things and find what works for you. It's not going to look the same for every person.

That's great, that's right on. And yeah, I think finding what works for you, how do you connect with the Lord is a great question. And if you don't know, like there's studies that can help you kind of figure that part out. But just, you know, what are the things that draw you closest to him? You know, when do you feel closest?

Yeah, there's a new phenomenon right now called uh, raw dogging flights. Horrible name, but basically what it is, is because on airplanes you have to be in airplane mode anyway. If you haven't intentionally downloaded media ahead of time, you don't have any. And what this new phenomenon, they say that people are just doing this now. They are intentionally going on flights with nothing, and all they do is stare out the window. That's it. And there's folks that just long for that time where there are no distractions because there's nothing, just a bunch of nothing for hours. Horrible name, but I think it's a good principle what you were talking about, where um, a little bit of intentionality you can find pockets of solitude for times of rejuvenation. Um, if you want them and they can be directed toward relationship with God, which is a piece that is um, more than just like unwinding. It's I'm intentionally seeking the Father. So that's one difference that I feel like most people don't notice. They want to get away out of an escape, but they're not running toward God. And what you end up with is just um, the stark realization of how dark we all are when we're by ourselves.

Or even taking time to to listen. Like I think there's a component of listening because, you know, we, I think it's important for us to to pursue God and follow God, but God's pursuing us all the time. You know, if we just stop enough, slow down enough, listen, whether it's through his word or nature or, you know, um, a worship song or I don't know, whatever it is that connects you. For me, I mean honestly, um, I'm tied to God's word. So writing down a verse was something I always did. I was studying, writing down how it hit me, where my affections got stirred, is where I started to write back love letters to the Lord based on that verse. I've got journals stacked high, you know, of that. And that's really when my, when my recovery got to to the point where I was now working towards intimacy with God and my time with him as opposed to just running through the the steps of learning about God. Now it's pursuing him, writing back to him, pouring out my heart, getting out of my head down on paper. Like that's what stirred my affections for him. So when I'm doing great, I'm I'm writing letters to him and not things that I ever publish anywhere else. It's just writing out how I feel, what I think, you know, praise things to him. And I don't know, there I'm sure there's a lot of people that do that. Um, but that's the one thing that stirs my affections for him. And so that's why that time in the morning works for me. You know, when I'm doing well, I'm writing. When I'm um, and it's also hard for me to get started to do that. I feel like there's a spiritual battle. You know, it's easy for me to take that off my plate and just go through the motions. That's not what God wants. He wants engagement. I don't know how much engagement I could do at five o'clock a.m. sitting in a lazy boy chair with God. Like you'll get your rest there. Try. I rest certainly. Um, you know, unfortunately it's there are there are days where I'm going to bed at five o'clock a.m. And and so like I I just the idea of waking up at five o'clock a.m. to to like have a uh, that's that's God has not blessed me with that ability. I'm glad he did you. Um, but that that's that's not on my cards.

Well, I I tell you what, this has been a great conversation. Flat caps blowing up Twitch with a mouse emoji that's asleep right now talking about five o'clock a.m.

Um, it's we're we're feeling that. Um, chat, chat's been good. Lots of conversations, lots of people connecting with this. And so um, Nate, man, I want to thank you for for jumping into this conversation. Um, you know, as as we're wrapping up here, Nate, any closing thoughts on your side?

Uh, you know, I I just I do think this this thought of you know, um, you know, I just I just think that God's always pursuing, always waiting, always inviting. You know, there's always an invitation to be close to the Living God who created you for a purpose and a reason. He's eager to speak into your life. And I just think about that. The Sovereign God of the universe that created all of it, that created the hand, you know, you intentionally, purposely, fearfully and wonderfully made you. We're created to um, as the Westminster Catechism puts it, you know, the chief end of man is to glorify God and enjoy him forever. Like he's created you specifically to bring him glory. And and and not only that, but just enjoy the way he's made you, way he's wired you, the way he's opened up life to you. And so that invitation is ongoing. And just know that Satan and the world is trying to pull you away, and your flesh is trying to pull you away from that all the time. There's nothing in your flesh that wants intimacy with God. Nothing. It's moving the opposite direction. And so you've got to be intentional, you know, with those things. And if Satan can bring something to your life that's going to pull you away or distraction or some escape other than connecting with the Lord, he's going to do it. But you know, in that silence and rest is where your strength is going to be found and your joy is going to be found. You can be fully known and fully loved in your relationship with him. And quite honestly, with a few trusted other people as well, you know, that are in the hands of you, of Christ in your life. And so just accept the invitations and don't let the noise crowd it out, you know, um, and um, just know that there's a great opportunity every day, you know, to meet with him. And then be intentional when you don't feel like it. Like that's there's just going to be times where you don't feel like it, you're distracted, you're too busy, you know, and just know that that's competition for your soul.

That took a deep turn. That's just competition for your soul.

Wow. Uh, uh, hey J, closing thoughts on your side?

I'm just trying to process in my mind what uh, we we talked about how digital solitude, I mean digital isolation can work. Um, I still have a question mark in my mind how digital solitude could work. I I, it's interesting. I and and I'm the guy who's always fighting for digital, um, you know, I have I have conversations. Um, I'm I'm just just going to be as is all about Jeff Reed for ten seconds and I cut you off. I'm sorry. Um, but like I I Jason, I have solitude conversations with you. I have solitude conversations with with Andy digitally, and and those are those are powerful conversations. Um, I sat across from, you know, one of the men that I I consider my pastor yesterday. Um, and it was um, it was a level more intense. I I don't I don't know how to reconcile that. Like I don't know if that's taking a walk in the woods, you know, letting your feet feel the carpet, you know, whatever the the the the visual is. Um, I'm all for connecting digitally to that, but even going back to, you know, what Nate said earlier, um, hey, if somebody's going to do regeneration digitally, they need to find the sponsor in physical space. Like I I think there's I think there's wisdom in having groups of people you can connect with and utilizing the digital tools for it. But I think there's wisdom in being able to look at eye to eye across from a Starbucks table. Um, you know, it's so funny. Uh, this guy asked me what my view of God was, and uh, and I I told him the answer, and he said, how long did you say that answer before you actually believed it? Like he he called my bluff in front of me in the Starbucks. And um, and and I I told him the answer, and and there there's a long story I can get into that if you want. Um, but the the physicality of of solitude is um, is intriguing to me coming from a guy that does so much digital. I I don't know, J, J, what what are you thinking about this or in general? I cut you off. I'm sorry.

I think there's something to contrast whatever you're doing. So for Jesus, he was in the crowd constantly. He needed something different. That's how vacations work for me. Most people, it's not like they're doing less activity. Sometimes they're doing more, but it's different. Um, for those of us who are in digital, maybe the different thing to do would be to not be in digital. Um, for those who aren't, they're probably in digital to a certain degree and they don't even realize it. If they're, you know, taking a walk in the woods while listening to worship music, where does that worship music come from? Digital. I mean, it's it's all kind of there. There's a mixture going on constantly. We're just not aware of it or thinking of it. And so that awareness, however, of not only what we are using in the moment but where that's leading us toward, if it is toward myself or if it is toward God, that's one thing I really appreciate about Nate's um, perspective and Megan's is part of it just distraction. Um, and part of it is, you know, am I just the soul leaning in on itself, you know, or is it something where I'm actually trying to connect in intimacy with God and others? That could happen in lots of different ways using lots of different modes. And I think we just kind of discovered that together. So yeah, I'm I certainly feel more connected to you, Jason, and Jeff than I did earlier this week. So grateful for this.

Me too. It's it's a little bit of um, maybe being out of the comfort zone. Um, and so getting you out of the comfort zone keeps your your focus on what it should be and not distracted, you know. I'm wagering Nate doesn't want to be up at five o'clock a.m. Uh, but discipline has has allowed him to be more focused that way. And maybe I should do five a.m.

But uh, I don't, I don't, I think I'd be more focused on my coffee that that early. Do you drink coffee?

My best time of the day. That's it. Like I don't talk. Don't talk to me at ten. At ten I'm out.

So all right, I I can appreciate that very much. So Megan, as we're wrapping up here, any closing thoughts?

Yeah, I mean my closing thought is gonna be that if someone's listening to this and they are dealing with isolation, like they're they heard some of the things that they're like, ah, sounds a lot like what I've been been doing, or they resonate with that, like reach out to somebody. Um, find people around you because sometimes it's hard for us to get out of the isolation by ourself, and we need some people to come alongside us. So whether it's a, even if it's a digital community, um, the church digital, like come be a part of it, or you know, any people around you that you know are safe to go to. You're not alone. Like I think probably all of us have dealt with this at some point in our life, and and there are a lot of people that go through it. But that's the lie that we want to believe is like, no one else is feeling this, no one else is dealing with this. So like, why why burden somebody with what I'm going through? Go do that. Share it with somebody else. You'll never know that if you can be fully loved until you allow yourself to be fully known. I mean, so uh, you know, God fully knows you and loves you. So you got to open up that those hidden parts of your life to him. And quite honestly, he's put people out there that'll that that will love you in Christ regardless of what's there in your isolated part.

So all right. You'll never know that you're fully loved until you allow yourself to be fully known. That's really good. You should write a book or two or three. Um, that's good. Is that you? Is that you or are you stealing that from somebody? Right up. Tell me right now. No, that's me. And I actually am writing.

A book, so like that's, uh, that's happening. Uh, yeah, awesome, very good. So Nate Greyville, thanks for jumping on here. Um, UK for Worship, ukulele for worship, but says early birds unite. Uh, Nate, she's, uh, she's a 5 AM or too. So God bless you. Melan used to do 5 AM as well, and until she had kids, and now that's not, but, um, we will, we're going to call it. And so hey, uh, for a crowded room today, for Nate, for J, for Megan, this is Jeff with the Church Digital. Thanks for jumping on the podcast, and we'll see you next time on the show. You have a good one.