EP073 - Greg Aukerman, Micro-churches, & Stairstepping Back to Buildings

Episode 73 of the Church Digital Podcast, once again, powered by Stadia Church Planting. Jeff here. We've got a really relevant episode for you today. I'm excited about it. I always feel bad now if I don't say I'm excited because I'm kind of locked in because I've said it so often. I'm excited, but it's also relevant because we're all trying to figure out how best to go back to the buildings or how to stair-step to get to the buildings. We've had the conversations about thinking digital first. Go back and listen to that episode if you've not yet. It's a solid episode to help us remember, even as we're going back to the building, we need to think digital first. That's not this podcast. This podcast is, hey, if we want to get back into the building, are there other ways than just meeting in the building?

Because there's a lot of tension. I've had conversations with larger venues that are like, hey, yeah, we're not able to open the venue or we're not even thinking we're going to go back into the venue until 2021. And so that's six to nine months. So we're still doing this digital strategy. But as we're stair-stepping and as they're starting to open up, hey, could we do a micro-location? Could we do a house church? What would a smaller movement of churches be? What would our church look like that was scattered, that was splintered, that was dispersed across our city? What if our people really did figure out how to be on mission and engaging with people across the city? What would that look like as we started to relax the code, the limitations of this lockdown in our cities?

What if we really did ask our people to be this church dispersed? You see, this is the conversation that we're having today. It's more in the line of not, how do we get back into the building? And what does a ticket system look like? And 20%, is it really worth opening the building for the 100, 150 people that can see the venue? Those are not the conversations that we want to have today. What we wanted to talk about today is, can we really do this whole priesthood of believers where we empower people to be on mission within their neighborhoods, utilizing their homes as an opportunity to connect with people in a new way, to reach their physical and maybe even their virtual circle of influence?

Can the church really pull off on mission like that? And to this end, we're bringing in a couple guys into the conversation. First off, we're bringing in Greg Ackerman. Greg is the director of online community for Crossroads Church in Cincinnati. Crossroads has been no stranger to the podcast. Matt Welty, who's the technology pastor, has essentially been on this podcast, I think at least twice, maybe more even if I could go back and count. But Greg has stepped in and Greg was part of starting Crossroads microchurch movement several years ago. He's telling some stories about that and even where that microchurch movement is today. And of course, Ray DeArmas, digital pastor for Christ Fellowship Miami, is coming on the podcast as well to share some of his experiences with micro.

And so we've got Greg, we've got Ray, and of course, Jeff with the Church Digital in a conversation that I'm calling microlocations, stair-stepping back to the buildings. Okay, everybody, here you go. I started at Crossroads about four and a half years ago with a very small team that was commissioned to figure out a expansion model for Crossroads that didn't rely on buildings. We were thinking way in advance and we knew what the investment to create physical space would cost. And frankly, it's astronomical. If we were to keep expanding at the rate that we were and putting down physical locations. So there was a small team of us that was brought on board and commissioned to figure out a new way to do it.

We leaned heavily towards digital, where we had an online experience that in its infancy was okay and has gotten way more mature and robust in the years that have followed. But we really started by finding a lot of people who were part of the church but had moved away that still had a passion for the culture that we have at Crossroads and also reaching their friends and neighbors and co-workers for Jesus. And really did our best to start having conversations with them around what it means to be the church in your everyday life, have this, this is a churchy term, but this priesthood of believers where they are equipped and empowered to do all the things that the church would do. And it's, it was a phenomenally educational road and a rough road at times and there's also incredible fruit that came from it.

Because the, the, there's a bunch of different mindset shifts that needed to happen for those people who were out figuring out the micro site thing or the house church thing or the missional thing where coming from a really large church like Crossroads, uh, there was a correct mindset that the church is the, the, the storehouse where you get your stuff. Um, whether that is in, in our case, things like, like coffee or materials or things like that. That's also where you go to have services that, that, um, happen like baptism or communion or things like that. Uh, so we took people around an idea of, uh, you can do these things. You have the, the ability to lead people to Jesus. You don't have to bring them to the building to have that happen.

You have the ability to baptize people in your house. You can serve communion. You can do, um, all these things on your own, uh, because you've been given that authority. Uh, and while it's really, really easy to say, and you can make a great soundbite of it, it's a long road to walk with people who, um, grew up and grew their faith in a really, really powerful, positive ways inside of a church that has a ton of structure and does a lot of things for you. That was a long time, uh, where we, we, I did that for probably about two and a half years and then moved to a centralized team that focused on groups and discipleship. So small group ministry. Uh, and I led that team for, uh, about two years and I was, um, able to take a lot of the lessons that we'd learned with house church and, and micro site, um, expansion that we did and bring that into small groups.

So focusing specifically on the leaders of groups and making sure they had what they needed to lead their people and, uh, and, and grow them. Um, lessons that we, that we learned along the way and try to spend, um, a lot of time on them is that, uh, you have a life that's worthy of imitation, that there's probably something in your life that is a step ahead of somebody else's and it's worth and it's worthy to be imitated and you can lead people in that direction. Um, a lot of the stuff that we dealt with, whether it was with micros and, and home churches or small groups is, uh, leader encouragement and confidence. It's really easy and it's a constant narrative that a lot of leaders have that, um, I'm not worthy.

I don't know what I'm doing. Um, what if this happens? I don't know how to do these kinds of things. So we spent, um, a lot of time, uh, and created a lot of resources so that folks felt that they could, that, um, just being who they are and having this relationship with Christ qualified them for the ministry that they were doing. Um, and being able to come alongside them, talk to them, pick them up when they felt like things were going poorly, um, talk through difficult things that happened in small groups because like that's the wild west out there, uh, has been, has been, um, the thing that we've focused on for the past couple of years. And then, um, like I said earlier, uh, about three or so months ago, I made the move back to our online communities, um, to help out with, with what's going on there.

Uh, and we have a newer focus now where instead of looking just at expansion of the church, the expansion part has been removed from online church entirely. And now we're looking just at online, how do we continue to grow our online community and how do we get them in, uh, how do we get them in groups? How do they get the fullness of the church, no matter where they are, whether that's, um, small groups, um, weddings, funerals, baptisms, the whole bit. So with, with moving away, um, in Ohio, you know, Miami is a very, where, where Ray and I are, it's a very, uh, transitional area. People are here for a number of months and then they leave. Like people, people don't stay in Miami. They're just constantly cycling through internationally.

Even, um, is, is there a lot of people who are moving away? Is there a cyclical nature in Ohio and Cincinnati area as well? Did you find yourself transitioning beyond just the moving away people to kind of build a micro? What, what, what, what's been your experience? Sure. Not, there's not nearly as much transition as a city like Miami, for sure. But we have several large corporations in Cincinnati. Uh, Procter and Gamble is one of them. Uh, Toyota was here for a while. So as people transferred or promoted or moved out of the city to other areas of the country, they wanted to bring their church with them. Let me back up a little bit. The launch of Crossroads online church, which we call Crossroads anywhere came out of a financial campaign that happened five or so years ago.

So it was this vision that was cast for this online infrastructure and a way for people to connect with the church and be part of the church, no matter where they are, that got a lot of people fired up. So as they were moving, this thing was top of mind for them to say, Hey, I want to be a part of this. I would love to be able to introduce people, uh, friends, neighbors, coworkers in the place where I end up professionally. And that kind of, that kind of leads to it. This is really interesting because typically pre COVID a conversation like this would go with a senior pastor. Hey, if somebody's moving, I want them to go plug in and be part of a perceived church, a physical church where they're going.

I don't want them to hold on to the past. I want them to, you know, experience it and get connected into a physical location there, you know, and I don't, I disagree with that. And I see how the micro location is an opportunity to, to extend the influence and to create a new community where maybe there wasn't, this is a great opportunity to do something different. I'm just wondering. And so, like you said, the, the capital campaign was five years ago. You've been there like four and a half. So you were kind of in the midst of some of that conversation. What's been the leadership transition to, to allow them to maybe look at creating a new community instead of, okay, once those people move, they're, they're really not my problem anymore.

Like any leadership transition, um, it's slow. Uh, we are blessed with some phenomenal leaders at Crossroads, uh, that have an incredible amount of bravery to take a step towards something new, even though it means potentially jeopardizing a thing that is good and healthy and growing. So as an example for what some of those steps that we had to go through as a church community, uh, let's look at something that's bread and butter. Let's look at weekend attendance, butts in seats in a physical building. As we matured and grew our online services and our online presence, it became easy for me, not necessarily me, although it could be anybody to wake up on a Sunday morning and be like, you know what?

I have a scratchy throat and my bathrobe is really comfortable. I can just watch online, which is great. But the implication of that is that if a bunch of people do it at once and your weekend attendance in the building starts to drop, there's some tension that immediately comes to the front, uh, and navigating that understanding that you're not cannibalizing your, your church. You're just offering a new, a new way to attend that, um, doesn't necessarily have any intrinsic advantage over the other. Uh, and, and that there's a lot of things that needed to be worked through and needed to be changed. And, uh, as many perspectives and as many viewpoints as we have people on staff to, to navigate all those things.

So it's, it's easy when you're, when you're, um, doing something as big as an organizational shift away from a tried and true model to have something like online church be demonized because it is, it's pulling people away. It's, it's bad. Uh, it's changing things that are good and healthy. Um, but because of, I think the vision that a lot of our senior leaders had at Crossroads, we were able to maintain, uh, and continue to take ground and start to understand that there are a myriad of ways that you can interact with a church on a weekly basis that, um, bring people fullness and life and inspiration and challenge and all the things that, that people are looking for and need from, from that weekly, uh, interaction, whether it is a service that you're watching on Sunday or an on-demand stream that is available to you on a Tuesday night.

Greg, I think a lot of our folks are probably going to listen to that and say, man, that's a dream. I wish I could get my leaders to see things the way that your leaders have kind of come to what's the clear win that they see both whether in a physical space or in a digital space that they're willing to put a lot of that on the back burner and say, this is our clear win. And as long as this happens, we feel comfortable whether they're watching online or whether their butts in a seat. Um, let's talk about the, let's talk about the really easy one, first of all. Um, and that's giving. If you can, um, make a big transition, whether it is because you want to move to online or because a pandemic forces you to move online and you see that the engagement from your givers doesn't drop.

Um, in fact, it is, it's something that steady, you know, that you're still winning in a lot of ways. Um, that is made more complicated now because then, you know, there's a lot of people who are out of work or lost jobs or are reduced employment. So it's difficult. Uh, but by and large, um, that can be a decent barometer of where you are. The other thing, um, that worked for us is modifying the way that you count. So, uh, let me take, uh, let me take us back to when we first started changing how we talked about attendance. Uh, because attendance is a really easy apples to apples number where you can see, hey, um, this week and this week there was an increase or there was a decrease or whatever.

So when we first started, um, looking at attendance, we would look at the number of people who were in a seat and that's like one number. And then we started by looking at an online service and we looked at the amount of concurrent connections for the middle 40 minutes of a service saying that for the middle 40 minutes of any service, this is the amount of, of people that were watching and then the average of that number we could confidently say was a single person who had seen the majority of the service. And then we put that together and called that attendance. And that was a big step forward from saying like connection count, which is always like an astronomical number. It's, uh, because people drop and IP addresses switch and all that crazy stuff happens.

So it's, you know, 400,000 or something ridiculous, which is not the amount of people who were there. So we were able to parse that into something that felt similar to attendance. And we've matured, uh, uh, we've matured the way we count a lot since then. Uh, but that was the, that was another win that we gave someone a metric that felt familiar enough to say that it was successful. Um, so that's another one. The other thing when your church does a program or a group or a push for push for something big and you know, the amount of engagement that you are typically, uh, expecting to get the engagement in, in the things that we did, whether it was groups or serving events or, or like a, um, a neighborhood reach out improvement thing.

Uh, I'm trying to put it in plain language as opposed to the branded stuff that we all do. Um, seeing that that engagement didn't dip or seeing that that engagement increased or being able to trace the people who decided that they wanted to join a group or do a serving project or join a volunteer team to folks that engaged, um, chiefly online. That was another win. And then specifically for the place where I'm from, um, our culture is dictated by individual story. So for the longest time, um, there's a guy on, on staff named Matt and he talked about, we were learning to fly a plane and for the longest time we would look out the window and be able to see the horizon and we see the hills and we, uh, are flying the plane that way.

Uh, and all of a sudden the plane is too big and we're flying too far and we need to learn to fly via instrumentation. So we can't see the ground anymore. We can't see all the people that are connecting online. We can't see the people that are in the buildings because of scale and the number of problems that that, that, uh, introduces. So now we're looking at instrumentation. So we're looking at engagement in the programs we do. We're looking at giving, we're looking at our, our changed attendance metrics, which is all good. And in the midst of all of it, highlighting individual story of life change does wonders, uh, for your culture, uh, for making those transitional changes, not only for leadership, but for the staff and for the people on the ground.

So being able to harvest and find stories of, um, I mean, uh, the, a couple of years ago, there was, uh, a woman who lived probably three miles from one of our largest campuses, who had never stepped foot in a building ever, who was shared the digital service from a friend, did a online small group series that we did. And at the culmination of that online small group, she decided that she wanted to be baptized and came to the building for the first time to be baptized. So stories like that, um, show how the two, uh, systems can be completely symbiotic. And it's really important to keep those stories top of mind and keep telling those stories of success that shows how everybody, regardless if you work on the digital side or the physical side or the combination thereof, um, are all pulling in the same direction.

And there are stories of profound change because of it stories give us an opportunity to cast vision to celebrate what's happening. And, and, and I love that analogy of, um, we can't fly off the horizon at this point. We have to like fall back on our, our instruments and the data we're seeing because we've scaled beyond what our eyes can physically see. Uh, that's, that's great. What other there, I'm sure there are other challenges as you were building a micro, uh, location, by the way, what is, is what's, what's the language? What is your term for that? Is it a home gathering? I don't just saddleback watch party. Like what do you call the actual units, uh, at Crossroads? Um, it's an interesting question because it's recently changed.

Okay. New branding. Yay. Yeah. Um, we, we, right now we are actually hitting, um, a pause button on the creation of new micro sites as they were. Um, we discovered, through a lot of things that we tried and a lot of things that worked and didn't work that it is very difficult for an organic growth of a movement of people within a city, uh, to get to a point where there are people who are meeting in a house, which we would call them watch parties to invite enough people to have critical mass to move into a rented facility. And honestly, we would just call those like like a Crossroads site, but they're in a rented facility. Um, a lot of people would call those like micros. Um, and then from there have enough mass to move to something that's a little bit more permanent.

That happened in, um, one, uh, and I think four, four different, uh, locations, uh, around the country. Um, but it, it is fraught with challenges because there's a lot of things that need to be, um, unlearned and then relearned and, and, um, all that good stuff. Um, but that's, uh, that's a long answer to your question of what do we call the things. Uh, but right now we have, uh, an online community that is very clear that this is a great way to interact with the church. We can get you connected to people and all that good stuff, but we are not looking at planting a physical site right now. And then we have our physical sites, which a number of them are buildings that were either constructed or repurposed that we're in full time.

And then a handful of them are rented facilities that, um, are a little bit smaller. Uh, but they do set up tear down every week. The language that you're describing with the difficulty, you're not the first church to come on this podcast and say that, um, Elevation Church kind of paused their, um, micro, I believe, uh, talking with, um, oh man, Danny Hicks. Danny Hicks. Yeah. Yeah. And so Dan, Danny was like, hey, like we're doing the actual small gatherings, these watch parties, but we're not promising anything about building a location. Jay Cranda is similar at Saddleback saying the same thing. They're working on their third strategy, uh, at this point of, of micro location. And, and this one is far more organic about just being an individual discipling and reaching their circle of influence as opposed to saying, hey, we're going to grow campuses out of this, this micro location.

And so I think, you know, what you're describing is, is having your focus, having the direction established where, hey, we're not going to call this campus six eventually, but you have an opportunity to, to disciple your circle of influence and create other disciple makers that can reach their circle of influence. I think that's a, that's a much safer goal here, at least in 2020, especially in this COVID season. Absolutely. Uh, and we, we went so far as to, um, encourage those who were meeting for a watch party where you get together, watch the weekend, do the thing, um, that if you only have a certain amount of hours to spend in the week doing, um, something that is church to watch the service on your own, then get together with your people to have a discussion about what's going on there, what's going on in your life, share a meal together, man.

Like whether I was doing online church micro sites or small groups, um, getting people to sit around the table and have a meal is a win, like hands down. Uh, and that is something that it even has translated well digitally, where we have groups of people that meet online, um, around dinner time and have those discussions. Then, um, it's, it's kind of miraculous what happens when, when you put those, those different elements in play. Is it weird to eat in front of people on zoom? I, I find it weird. I actually had this conversation with Jason Morris at a West side family. Cause he's like, you cannot break bread online. It's weird when you eat food in front of a, and I'll go ahead. Talk to me, Greg.

So like if I was eating right now, it would be the weirdest thing in the world. But as long as you set the expectation going in that like, we're going to have a shared meal together, uh, and we're just going to have discussion. Like it works really well because then if there's like eight people, nine people, 30 people on the call, most of you aren't going to be talking anyway. Um, so you can pass conversation around there. It's all about, it's all about expectation. I think, I mean, I could be totally wrong and eventually you're going to have the guy who's just chewing directly into his microphone, but you know what? It works. That's where I'm going to be a Pharisee here. I think it has to do with etiquette.

All right. I think it's just got to do with how loud they cue and how open their mouth is and what's going on with the experience. Cause if you feel like you're in a 40 experience where stuff's coming at you as they're chewing, I think that's where the whole thing falls apart. That's fair. But yeah, but as far as that's concerned, and this is what's funny, right? Like there's rules of community, right? Like within, within any given space, right? Like some people would be offended if you brought your food to in-person small group while we're having a Bible study here. Whereas I'm, I'm totally cool with it. Like when people would come to our house and they were like, man, Ray, you know, we're just getting in and we haven't eaten yet.

Now I'm like, man, eat away. We're going to keep having group. It doesn't matter. And I think, I think that's where there's, there's shared kind of an understanding in terms of what's allowed and what's not allowed. Is that fair to say in terms of, and even with micro locations, right? Like they would vary in terms of culture to culture, place to place in terms of what's allowed and what's not allowed. Right. Yep. Regardless of whether we're talking like micros or, or, uh, small groups or any program that you're doing, what I've found, uh, is that there's two things that need to be set in people's minds before they get there. And it's, it's setting proper expectations. So the first question of two questions that anybody asks, if they're going to join anything that has any sort of social component is what is it going to be like, and what is it going to cost me?

So what is it going to be like, um, is there going to be food? Are people going to be weird? Am I going to be the only one who doesn't know the unwritten rules, all that good stuff? Um, we found that whether it was a small group or, uh, that met either in person or out in the world, one of the first things that, uh, people did when they joined the group is they would stalk the person on Facebook and then they would Google map their house. They want to set expectations about what is it going to be like. And the second one that they want to know is what is it going to cost me? Um, yes, there may be a physical cost if you're like signing up for a program or something like that, but it's also what's the time investment, what opportunities am I saying no to?

So I could be part of this thing. So anything to set those expectations, whether it's a meal online or, or sitting down to watch a service online, uh, anything you do to set those expectations really, really clearly is a win. You're interesting, Greg, because you've really danced on two sides of, of the same coin of where you're trying to do discipleship to motivate people to do this priesthood of believers, this micro micro location house church type of movement. But you've also played the other side of the coin, which is more of a, uh, growing and creating biblical community and from central services, trying to help people understand that to create, you know, small groups. And, and a lot of times when we try to explain what the, at least I do, when I try to explain what, what a house church is in a micro location, people are like, oh, you mean a small group and I'm like, well, at least in the context that you're meeting in a house with people.

Yes. But operationally, I feel like it's, it's a lot different. Do you feel that tension of where it's, it's two different things, priesthood of believers versus leave it leading a small group or like, how do you reconcile that? Or maybe even how do you explain that when you try to explain the differences to people or is it more similar to you? Um, I, I think there's, there's differences. Um, we use a, um, we use a analogy or a teaching tool where we call, um, it's, it's up in and out. And if you have, uh, a balance between up in and out, I'll talk about those in just a second. Then I would say that you are more operating as a cell of priesthood of believers as opposed to a, just a small group, which are great.

Don't get me wrong. I'm pro small group, but generally they don't have an out component. So let me explain. Um, up is a connection to, it's a connection to God. It's a connection to, uh, things that you are doing together to orient yourself towards the divine, um, which is, it's great. Uh, in is a focus internally and a building of relationship and fellowship and all the ships with the people who are in the group. And then out is a conscious, uh, moving and a conscious interaction with people who don't know the gospel. And if you have all three of those, a connection to God, a deep connection with each other and a connection with people who, um, don't yet know who God is, I would say that is more a home church priesthood of believers, whatever you want to call it, that has, uh, probably a mission and have people who they are thinking about praying for trying to serve, um, who aren't members of the church.

Generally what I found, and this is a big generalization is the, the small group, which again is great, just has the up and the end. It's a connection with God and connection with each other. And that is really good and probably healthy. And a ton of growth comes from it and making sure that there's a spiritual component of a, of a time that you get together is, is really, really important. But what I've found is they are generally missing a outward facing component or that interaction with people, um, who don't believe. And that's how I make the distinction between the two. How have you guys gone about just culturally, just kind of thinking through, okay, we're in these digital communities. How are we thinking of outsiders?

Because even a lot of digital church, if we're not careful, it can be very insider focused too. Like just caring for the church, especially in this season, as opposed to thinking through how we're reaching people as well. If I were to tell you that I had answers for this season, I would be a hundred percent lying. Um, we're figuring that out as we go. Nobody's got answers. Don't worry about that. Keep going. Nobody does. The government don't have answers. Nobody's got answers. Nobody's got answers. But what we, what we like to do in terms of the, the, um, equipping or training of leaders or groups of people to have an impact. Um, there is a, a set of content that we put together that, um, I think is pretty solid.

Uh, even though like, anyway, it's a set of content that we put together that helps people think about the mission that their group is on. Um, we don't necessarily dictate that you must do X, Y, or Z. I mean, we have general guidelines in place around, Hey, if you're going to meet with a small group, it's decent to make sure that you touch base at least every other week, uh, once a month at minimum. So you can start creating those relationships. But, um, if you're ready to take it to the next level, uh, we have, uh, uh, this set of content that you go through, which it's, it's called the four Ps. It's people, purpose, passion, and potential. Uh, and I'll unpack each one of them briefly. And it's a five week journey that you go on and you look at each one of those based on the people who are around you.

And this works, whether you're talking about digital or whether you're talking about in person. So the people is a deep dive on who are the people around you? What are their gifts? What, um, uh, how are they wired? Uh, you can talk about personality, things like that. Um, looking at fivefold ministry. Um, if you're into that sort of thing, do you have, uh, shepherds, teachers, apostles, prophets, evangelists around you? Um, that's good to take an inventory of who you are. The next one is passions. So what is it that make those people tick? What are their holy discontent? What is the thing that something is, is inside them that they want to make a change in the world and then in the, in their neighborhood, in their life, uh, uh, all that good stuff.

Uh, next one is problems. So very, very simply, uh, if you're in a neighborhood or online, it's what do you like about where you are and what would you want to change? So you don't want to, you don't want to let it go negative, but you want to see where is there a place for impact that you want to make a change, uh, in your community and understanding that online that may be dispersed and it may be different for each person. But the, the thing that I've discovered as you get into these conversations is that, um, miraculously there seems to be overlap and almost every group that goes through it. And the last one is potential. And I think that is key. Uh, potential isn't necessarily the potential impact that your group can make.

It's more taking the time prayerfully to see where God is already moving, uh, whether it's in your life or in your neighborhood or in the relationships that you have, and then aligning with where that momentum has already been started as opposed to, you know, starting it on your own, starting the boulder up the hill through sheer force of will. It's that, that last thing, that potential where you, you look to see where progress is already being made and then aligning yourself to it. That is key for a lot of groups to figure out what their, what their mission is. So we are super low control, uh, in terms of what our groups do, the missions that they have, all that sort of thing. Uh, but we try to give them the things that they need to do so that they can figure out the thing that God may be calling either the whole group or individual members to it, and then have that conversation where they say it out loud so they can have some accountability and some movement.

We had Ed Stetzer on. And I mentioned that earlier in the podcast, we had Ed on. Um, and, and I know one of the questions that Ray really loved in that is Ed was literally describing like a discipleship process. And Ed was talking about how true discipleship really needs to be a third thing. It's not the church service. It's not the small groups. It's at least in Ed's opinion. Uh, it was, it was a third time, a third event. Ed was leaning more towards a Sunday night service, which seems weird to me. And so like, I would, we look at it differently, but anyway, it was like, it was a third thing, your four piece that you just rattled off here. That was really good and really intentional and very like, I love the intentionality from that.

Do you integrate that? Does Crossroads integrate that into all of the small groups or is that something that you're pulling people out and, and, and kind of reinforcing that in, in a third thing, like what's, what's kind of your method here with that? There's a lot of small groups that don't necessarily have any sort of missional drive, um, or the idea that they would want to interact with, or, or have an outward facing component. And I'm not here to, you know, force anybody to do anything that they're not ready to, or they don't want to, yes, I want to challenge people and yes, I want them to grow. Um, but we haven't had a lot of success if we push people in that direction. So what we do for our small groups in terms of generating culture and going in that direction is we have a couple of events that happen every year where we, where we, um, intentionally invest in our small group leaders.

Uh, one of them happens at their site where we get everybody together and we do one, uh, digitally. So we have a, um, uh, a digital summit through Facebook on our online leader Facebook group that we have, uh, which is the same content that we would have at regular sites. And then we have one large scale gathering where we bring all of our small group leaders together in one location. And that includes our online people. Um, we will encourage them to make the trip. Um, we have, uh, figured out ways to help them out with either travel or hotel or accommodations or staying with family members that are around here. And by that, I mean, church family members, um, to get everybody in the same place.

And those are where we hit the bigger rocks. The thing that I was talking about in terms of the four P's, the passion problem, people and potential, um, is where we, where we lead people towards so that if they want to have an impact with their group beyond, um, beyond what I would consider a normal small group type activity, that's where we, that's where we send them. And the people who opt into that, we'd like to be really, really close with, because those are the ones that are the movers and shakers and do some incredible stuff and have done some incredible stuff, even in the midst of this whole COVID-19 thing. You know, Greg, this is amazing. Um, when you guys are identifying people like the right kind of people that you want to start this, like, what are some of the qualities that you're looking for?

Because as we look towards a future where this is possibly like the way or part of the way that we lead towards reopening towards spaces or whatever else, you know, even for churches that are a little bit against like micro locations, but they're like, oh, but we're probably going to have to do that at least to get there. What are you, what are you guys looking for in terms of the person or the people who lead? Um, I would love to be able to give you like, hey, here are the three bullets of what makes a great leader, but it really is going to depend on, um, the group, the mission and the calling that that group or that person has. It's really a person who understands their giftings and understands their outages.

So let me give you an example and I'll just use the example is going to be me. Um, I am, I'm a crap evangelist and by that it means I don't have any problem talking to somebody about Jesus or sharing my faith with somebody. It means that as soon as I have a good experience, whether it is listening to a podcast or a great meal, my brain goes, okay, I'm onto the next one. What's next? I don't think to tell anybody about it. It's just a deficiency and how I think, but, um, I am pretty strong when it comes to shepherding. Uh, I'm decent when it comes to teaching and I like to start new stuff. So when somebody becomes, uh, when somebody applies to be a group leader, because you have to apply to be a group leader, uh, we take them through a pretty brief, but I think pretty solid vetting process where, um, we have a, either a phone conversation or an in-person conversation or a video conversation, no matter where you are, we'll make it work.

Uh, and we ask some questions about your vision for the group. What are your giftings and things like that? And the people who do those interviews, um, are kind of keyed into hearing whether or not that person, uh, kind of understands who they are, how they're wired, what their vision is, and then makes those suggestions in that period of time on how to get started and may point them to some more challenging resources that can stretch them. Um, our whole thing at Crossroads is to make sure that, um, every person who comes through our digital or physical doors has the chance to interact with a guide that can understand them, can know them, and can help them take the right next step for them. And it's part of that guiding process that, um, we look and are on the lookout for some of those potential group leaders that could do something that is more outward focused, missional, impactful, um, and hopefully win people for Jesus.

Did I understand that right? Cause I think that's, that's awesome. Um, in terms of looking for guides, do you then deploy the guides to interact with those first time guests with those folks? Like, is that an immediate thing or how does that work? Because that, that to me just sounds awesome in terms of, Hey, we've got people that we want them to help other people along this journey and we deploy them to do so. Um, yes, though. It's in its, uh, I wouldn't say in infancy, I would say it's in its toddler stages right now. Um, so like a lot of churches that are doing stuff online, um, you'll do a big Easter service and have tens of thousands, if not hundreds of thousands of people there. And then you immediately feel the pressure of like, Oh my gosh, I had a hundred thousand people watch my Easter service.

How in the heck am I going to care for these hundred thousand people? Um, the thing that we are trying to do is make it phenomenally easy to come out of the anonymity of the online data, raise your hand to say, Hey, I want to be a part of this. I want to join something. Um, so like a lot of churches, we have a online chat that's staffed by actual living, breathing human beings, um, which is great. And as part of that, there is a find your fit. I think is what we call it survey that allows people to answer a couple of questions about themselves, what they're looking for, what questions they may have. Um, and then based on that, it gets sent out to all of our physical sites and digital sites. And then there is someone there, whether it is a staff member or a volunteer who fills that guide role at that point, they reach out to that person, um, have a conversation and then make suggestions on next steps based on, uh, what they answered or how the conversation goes.

And that is, that's for a group leader or for, you know, just random individual who decides to raise their hand and wants to know more about how to be part of what's going on. Yeah. That right there is a piece that all of us, including myself, I think can kind of walk away with, with, wow, something as simple as giving people an entry relationship in terms of taking a next step. That's not something a whole lot of churches do anymore. I mean, Jeff and I come from a church that we, you know, we used to do something called first friends, which was like that relationship where we would stick with somebody for what Jeff, like seven or eight weeks. Right. Yeah. Yeah. It was, it was, uh, at least I want to think as high as a quarter, like three, three months worth of making sure they got connected into it.

By the way, Ray, I don't know if you remember this when I, when I was at CF Miami, we, we actually instituted first friends for about, for about a year online. And so like we, we were utilizing, um, you know, some of that, that first up first step where the volunteers were the ones who were following up on and, and engaging and kind of walking them through that almost like a concierge type relationship where it's, you know, I'm, I'm not an automated, and I'm a, I'm a huge relational guy with online where, you know, I think chat bots are great. I think automated funnels are awesome, but give me a real life person who's having a conversation who gives a crap about who I am and is walking me through the process.

I think there's huge value in that as well. So love, uh, love the crossroads is, is diving into that. Uh, just even as an aside, I would love if, if, can I get a copy of, of the find your fit survey? Is there a link or something we can put to it in the show notes? You just opened up a whole other really interesting sector, uh, to talk about because the hardest thing, and I've, and I've said this regularly, the hardest thing at all of church online is to pull people out of what I call church in isolation, where you have tens of, you have hundreds of thousands of people watching these services online. You know who they are. I quoted a church recently, Easter 2020 in this COVID season, they had over half a million people view their Easter service, how they were counting.

I don't know how they were counting. It doesn't matter. They had half a million people viewing the service online or TV, and they only collected 11 connection cards. So obviously there, there's a disconnect. Um, you know, and I don't think there's a silver bullet, you know, and I'm not expecting, uh, Greg to release the secret sauce here of what crossroads is doing, but is there anything, uh, any tips, any tricks, any points in the right direction? Have you guys learned anything trying to discover who these people are? I think I, I think I'm going to answer that question by introducing another question, which is where, which is where I currently am in, in trying to figure that out and how to make it very easy and all, and, and appealing to come from anonymity to, I want to be part of this.

I want to learn more. I want to meet people and make friends. I have been a part of groups at crossroads in some sort of either volunteer or staff or leadership capacity for, uh, I think six or seven years now. And aside from one brief moment that happened probably about six years ago, I have never seen us run into capacity issues, meaning that there are always places, there are always seats at the table. There are always things for you to join groups, to be a part of all that good stuff. In fact, it is much more common than, in my experience where I am, I'm not putting this on anybody else, for me to have a difficult conversation with a leader that feels as though they are failing because nobody wants to be part of their group, then have a difficult conversation with a, a tender who can't find a group for them.

So all that to say, and this is the thing that I haven't figured out is that we don't have a capacity issue. We have a demand issue, meaning that that hundred thousand, five hundred thousand people who watched Easter don't yet have a felt need that says, Hey, I saw your service. This is amazing. I want to be best friends with you. I want to learn more. I want to connect more. And the question that I have is how do we continue to generate that demand at levels and at scale that is in relationship or in conjunction with the amount of people that are currently viewing service online? So you can take a horse to water, but you can't make them drink. I mean, that's yeah. Yeah. I don't know what to do with that.

You're, you're not wrong. Um, I'm part of me, you know, uh, in the world of, I mean, part of that also gets to abiding and waiting for God and his timing in, in the world of Mary versus Martha, I am far Martha. I am not Mary. And so maybe, maybe there is a bit or a piece of that even to reconcile with man, way to play that card. You're making me like spiritually question myself right now. Thank you for that. That's exactly what I wanted to do on a podcast here this morning. So I'm glad I could help. I'm glad I could help. Good job, Greg. Love it. You know, I, I think there's, there's an opportunity for us. I, I, I, sometimes I look at the mirror, I look at it, the mirror image of it. And instead of trying to pull that, you know, the example of the church with the 500,000 and discover who those 500,000 people are, I think there's a very strong case of working with an individual and then letting that message spread and letting it spread instead of sometimes I think thinking big, you know, and this is one of the reasons why I love church online for small churches, because I think they have a stronger opportunity than the big churches because they're small, they're relational, and it's easier to scale small than it is big.

Just that's on us though. Right. That's on us. Cause we fall in love more with acts too. Then we do with like Matthew three and four, right? Like just being honest, like my small group, we've been going through the book of acts. We've been talking about that. We've been kind of discussing about how, man, why is it that churches focus so much on the isolated incidences of 2000 people, 3000 people coming to faith, as opposed to the moments where it's like, ah, three guys understand and get it. And those three guys just blitz and like change their community, you know, uh, or the woman at the well, right? Like a light bulb comes on for her. And then she goes back and her whole, her whole town is different because one person's eyes are illuminated.

She gets it in a real authentic way. And then she goes back and her community has changed because she got it. Um, and I think that's on us too, in terms of like what we measure as the win. And even with church online, if the danger is looking at the crowd, as opposed to the individual, like you guys are saying, I think those are some things that we have to come back to the table and kind of reassess. Right. And it's, it's a hard truth. It's a hard thing maybe to hear our church methods, our church strategies, our stroke structure towards engage people in a weekend service, move them into small groups. If, if we actually do get them to third base, get them on mission or serving and then home plates mission, diamond triangle, whatever it is, you've got your strategy, but chances are that whole disciple making piece is like the last in your strategy, which is really ironic because it's the most important.

And at least it's the most effective in letting you grow and create disciples, which is what we're called to, uh, in Matthew 28. Uh, so it's, it's just maybe looking at it differently, even, even for a season in this COVID season, um, the smallness, the individualness of the church spread across the, um, your, your city has maybe more power, I think than, than even we realize it's, it's not, even as we're looking, talking about going back to the building, let's not lose the fact the fact of the fact that our church is now disseminated and spread across by tens and hundreds of thousands, thousands of people across the city, which kind of leads me to this question. Let's, let's segue here. It's how can micro, how can house churches, as we're stair-stepping, like, how can that help, uh, in this, in this COVID season?

Is there an opportunity, maybe not to the point of creating a campus. I don't think anybody's asking that, especially in this COVID season, but right now, what would a splintered, fractured church spread across the city, while we're stair-stepping back into the building, you know, what would that look like? It's a great question, um, and I think that there's a tremendous amount of potential in, regardless of whether or not your church is going to start stair-stepping back to the building as quick as possible, or they're deciding that they want to wait until 2021 to get back to the building. There is such a hunger for community to be known, to be heard, to be listened to. That is the mission that I think all of us are on, whether it's, it's members of your church or people who, who are neighbors of the members of your church.

Um, and I think that more than really any group of people, uh, it's the people who are part of the church that can come and help those folks. Uh, isolation was a plague, uh, and I used that word intentionally even before this, this actual plague that we're in right now started. Um, so being able to speak to your people, speak to your leaders and let them know that, that for such a time as this, um, the church, uh, was made that there is a, a tremendous opportunity to impact more people at a greater scale that are more dispersed now than I think we have when we start going back to our buildings. So as a, like, as an analogy, um, that I stole from somebody who is smarter than me, who's named Scott, um, a lot of the times when we think about bringing people to church, um, we are thinking about a giant medieval castle that we're all standing inside of, and we all know the right things to do, and we all know the right things to say.

And what we do is we lower the drawbridge, and we run out of the community, and we grab somebody, and we bring them back inside the castle, and then we cheer because we, we got somebody. And they said yes to Jesus, and this is amazing. What we're doing in that is we're asking that person who is coming into the castle to essentially be a missionary to us. They have to learn where to park their car. They have to learn when to stand up, when to sit down, where to get their coffee, what the check-in procedure is at your, your children's ministry. Um, right now in the midst of COVID, we have the opportunity to genuinely be missionaries to the neighborhoods and the people that we're in and among. Uh, and that's the thing that I think a dispersed, um, powerful network of individuals can do in a time like this.

And it is, it's, it's, it's being physically present in the moment to care for and listen to those that are around you. So practical steps. If I wanted to, if I wanted to launch micro locations at my church, I already have a broadcast. Um, I'm, I'm, I'm a thousand person in church. I'm not going to be able to get back into my building for a while. Um, like how, what are some practical steps to help a micro exist at, at a, uh, at a church? Similar to what we were talking about earlier of spending time focusing on the individual more than the crowd. I mean, from my experience and in my opinion, that's it. If you know your people and you know, your, your volunteers, the people who, um, you've walked with for a long time, spending some time in prayer, thinking of, okay, who of those people, um, has the potential to either be a guide or a shepherd to others or can start something.

And then having that, that conversation that, um, that Dave Ferguson calls the I see in you conversation, where you either face to face or mask to mask or screen to screen, however you want to do it, um, have the conversation that says, I see this potential in you. I think that you can do this. And then encouraging them to go away, talk to a trusted circle, pray about it, take it before God to say, um, do I, am I called to make this sort of impact? And whether you're a church of 20,000 or 200, I think I'd do the same step. And it's that individual conversation, that individual action, um, that is gonna, that can make a movement and can start things. I would also, as, as a leader of, of, of a church, take a little bit of comfort in the back half of Acts 2, which I know we, uh, Ray talked about earlier of, of something that we want to focus on where we talk to the 2000 and that they all come to faith.

But the back half of that is that, um, God added to their number daily, those who are being saved. Um, so as you have those really, uh, important, I see in you conversations with leaders that you want to commission and challenge to go take new ground or have an impact to do simple, practical things in their city, like build a basketball hoop, take a little bit of comfort, encouragement that it's not necessarily on you or them, uh, to save people and to build the church. Uh, we own the obedience part of the equation. God owns the outcome. Um, and for me, that has been incredibly comforting at times where I'm beating my head against the wall to try and make something happen. Look at that disciple maker, look at that individual, empower them and unleash them.

And what's interesting is their circle of influence is probably different than the circle of influence that you are reaching through your services. You may find yourself connecting with a whole other different set of people through a micro and things like this. So, um, that is awesome. Hey, this has been a great, great conversation. Greg, I appreciate the time. Ray, as we're landing the plane, any closing thoughts? Yeah, just, I think Greg, you just nailed it right there at the end. Um, in terms of focusing in on the individual. And I think, you know, for me, you've challenged me in a lot of ways in terms of how am I doing that? And am I doing that as well as I can, you know, everything from taking people from first time guests through next steps, through some of these different things.

Um, as we look at the grand scheme of church online, and especially in this season, as churches have fallen in love with the numbers of views and the numbers, uh, you know, the big number side of it coming back to understanding that all that's nice, but if we're not helping individuals through their next step in the process, then the reality of it is, is whether we're in buildings where they're outside of buildings, whether we claim to have large or small gatherings, uh, we're not, we're not really discipling people, which is what the mission is supposed to be. And so I appreciate you helping bring that perspective. Yeah, this is, this has been an incredible conversation. Greg, as, as we're landing the plane, any closing thoughts?

Yeah, I don't have anything, you know, pithy or wise to drop at the end. I feel like I should have wrote that out in advance, but, uh, I super appreciate the, the conversation. Uh, I hope this is helpful and I, I appreciate you guys having me on. No, this has been great. You hit it, you hit on, you hit on some topics. I wasn't even planning on hitting on with the whole church in, in isolation and that. And so that wasn't even on my radar. And you mentioned that in that early phrase and I was in that early kind of time and I was like, oh my gosh, that's so good. We got to come back to that. So thank you even, even for that. Um, by the way, we're going to add in this show notes, we'll add three or four topical questions for, for you guys, the listeners to, to, uh, address and maybe process with your, uh, with your staff and with your church.

So check out the show notes. You'll find that there. But, uh, for Ray, for Greg, this is Jeff with the church digital and stadia church planning. Thanks for joining us. and we'll see you next time here at the podcast. Y'all have a good day.